IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Break Up With Him When It’s Over with Elaine Welteroth

Episode Date: April 9, 2025

Michelle sits down solo with author, businesswoman, and all around multihyphenate, Elaine Welteroth, to answer a listener's question about a dating red-flag. Elaine tells the story of past romance with her own “Br. Big,” and how it nearly set her off course from the family goals she cared most about. Michelle talks about the importance of dating before marriage and highlights a concept that should be paid more attention: being the “chooser,” not the chosen. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

So this is, I've never told anyone this, Mrs. Obama, but I'm going to tell you this, because it applies to this person's situation. When I was 25, I happened to be dating. Don't judge me, Mrs. Obama. Okay. Let's hear it. Okay. You promise. I don't know.

Is it a safe space? You can't promise. You can't promise. It's a space space. You have two daughters. I'm sure they brought you some stuff. Please. And you've had to keep the.

And some things I've had to say, don't tell your father that, okay? This episode is brought to you by Pinesol and Theraflu. Well, hey, hey! I am here. We are here chatting. I'm solo this time. I usually have my big brother, Craig, to join me in these conversations, but he's feeling under the weather.

But we're going to proceed without him because we've got a great question that is perfect for our guest. And I want to welcome one of my favorite people, Elaine Walter, who, you know, goes without any introduction. She is beautiful, smart, sharp, awesome. Her resume, she's a New York Times best-selling author, award-winning journalist, former judge on one of my favorite shows that I still never got to go and sit and judge. It could still happen.

Project Runway. We'll see. It's on my bucket list. Another thing that you are known for is being at the helm of Teen Vogue doing great things. But you've also launched Birth Fund, which is a foundation that provides grants for midwifery, birth support, and holistic prenatal care for mothers. And I didn't know about that work. You're doing it all. Look who's talking.

Thanks for being here, Elaine. We've got a great question that's right up your alley. But before we jump in, I just want to check, how you doing? You look great. You got some things going on. Some things. Some things. Tell us all about life.

Some big things are popping literally about to. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. What a dream. I am 33 weeks pregnant. I think 32 weeks pregnant today. Congratulations. Thank you so much. This is the perfect way to bless the bump.

Yeah. before we get into that final, final stretch. But it's a good segue into, well, it's almost a good segue because it's like before you get to have the baby, you got to choose who you're going to do it with. You got to figure out who you're going to have it with. And that takes us to our question for today from a young woman named Alice, who's 30 years old and is trying to figure out this whole mothering thing. Hi, Michelle.

My name is Alice. I'm 30 years old. and I've been in a relationship for about six years. I desperately want to have children, and I know that I want to be a mom. However, my boyfriend doesn't feel ready and doesn't think he will ever want kids, but he's not totally sure.

We are very much in love and do see a future together, but I just can't imagine a life without children, and I feel like I need to know soon whether or not that's in the cards for us, so I can move on if I need to. So my question is, have you ever seen a man change his mind about wanting kids in his 30s.

And if so, what prompted it? And if we do decide to break up and I re-enter the dating scene, what important questions should I be asking potential suitors to avoid spending another six years in a relationship where our visions are not aligned? Thank you. So, yeah, this speaks to you, doesn't it? It speaks to 25-year-old me, it does.

Really? So these were, yeah, and I get these kind of questions from my young staff, my mentees, you know, at that age. And a lot of women are struggling with the finding a mate, finding a good mate, dealing with the biological time clock, thinking about freezing eggs, just feels more fraught than it maybe even was for me when I was that age. But I want to hear a bit of your journey around this. this question. So this is, I've never told anyone this, Mrs. Obama, but I'm going to tell you this, because it applies to this person's situation. When I was 25, I happened to be dating.

Don't judge me, Mrs. Obama. Okay. Let's hear it. Okay. You promise. I don't know. I can't promise. Is it a safe space? It's a space space space. You have two daughters. I'm sure they brought you some stuff. Please. And you've had to keep the. And some things I've had to say, don't tell your father that. Okay. Just keep that between us. Let's just say this is one of those things. Okay. This is one of those things. So when I was 25, I found myself in love with a 50-year-old man. Okay. All right. And this 50-year-old man already had children. And at the time, you know, I really wasn't thinking about children. Yeah. And we were having a great time, you know, really wasn't worried about the future. But the deeper we got into the relationship, it came up that he didn't want to have children.

How long were you dating before you? It came up pretty early on, I would say. And when he said he didn't want to have kids, I kind of heard what she heard, which is like, maybe there's still a chance, right? You know, I think when we're young, we think that we can maybe change people. And we think that maybe we could inspire a change, right? That's right. Love conquers all in love. But, you know, there are some practicalities in life that you do have to consider.

And one of the most important things that my mom has ever told me that Maya Angelou has said is that when somebody shows you who they are, believe them. Tell you who they are. Believe them the first time. That's right. And this applies in this situation. if this man has said to you, I love you, but I don't want to have kids. And if you know deep down that that is something you really, really want, you have to. You got to know that and keep it moving. You got to, unfortunately, you might have to wrap things up. How long were you in the relationship before you kind of thought a year? Okay. Well, see, that's, truthfully, at 25 or 30, you know, young women are still figuring. themselves out, you know, and just to cut you a little bit of slack at 25. Please. Please. You were a baby, you know, and you were still figuring out who you were.

And in our 20s, we are more malleable. You know, we're more open to possibilities. And you're with an older man who makes you feel mature and you feel secure in it. I mean, my question is not to you at 25, but it's to him. him at 50. I have the same question now, looking back as a 37-year-old woman, I have the same question now. Right. Now, I mean, because first of all, it's like a 50-year-old man is dating a child, and that may feel fun and easy, right, in so many ways. But my question to him is, why are you wasting her time? And you know you don't want to have kids, you know? So, some of the burden is on the guy.

He's already been married, has had his kids, you know. So it takes two. And at 25, you learned an important lesson. I want to tell Alice that sometimes the prayers that go unanswered are the ones you will be the most grateful for down the line. Because I will tell you now, looking back, who, thank you, Jesus, that I did not end up going down that path. and hoping that this man would change his mind.

And, you know, God forbid he did. One of the things he would say, and I got to give him credit, he did say, I do not want you to look up in your 30s and go, I gave the best years of my life to this guy when we don't want the same things going into the future. And he said, he would say, you know, having kids is a young man's game. And at 25, I didn't get that. at 37, going on two kids, with an energetic young man who is my age who can keep up with me, oh, I get it now.

That's right. It is something that you have to have the conviction. And I think that, you know, in relationships, yes, you have to make compromises. Yeah. And yes, you'll hear that a lot from married couples. But there are some things you do not compromise on. Yeah, yeah. And kids is one of them.

If you do not have the conviction, if you have, if you have, don't really, really desire that. You are better off not wasting another person's time and entering into that lifelong partnership. Because if you can't support her fully in motherhood, leave her alone. There are many ways to live a full life. And we're raised as young women to think it's marriage, it's kids in that order. And that's one thing we don't have control over. You know, you don't know if you're going to fall in love. You don't know if you're going to find the right person. You don't know how life is going to unfold. Eat that the truth. And I find that I know some of my young mentees feel less than because they haven't found somebody or they haven't had a child. And it breaks my heart because these are beautiful, smart women who have amazing lives.

but because one piece of the puzzle isn't there, a piece that they've been told their whole lives they should want and have, it's almost like life has no purpose. And one of the things I want my daughter is I'm trying to deprogram them from that belief that there's a certain way to be a woman in this world. Because I don't know what their future is going to hold. So I don't talk about when you become a mother or when you get married, I say, well, if you find somebody, if you choose that, if that's something you want for yourself, but understand that you can have a beautiful life without all that. Absolutely. You know, you are not less of a person because somebody didn't choose you or you didn't find somebody. This episode is brought to you

by Theraflu. We've partnered with Theriflu to spread awareness about the amazing work they're doing to fight for paid sick days for all workers in America. Mish, don't you remember when dad didn't feel comfortable taking paid sick days? Well, I didn't realize he didn't feel comfortable. And just to remind folks, our dad was a blue-collar worker. He worked as a stationary fireman for the water filtration plant for the city of Chicago. So he was a shift worker. But I do, what I remember is that our dad never, I can't remember him ever taking a sick day or a day off other than his signed vacation days.

Never. And I didn't know why. I just thought, you know, he just had a great work ethic, which I think he did. Which he did, but he never, it seemed like he was either never sick, which we know now was impossible. Well, our father had multiple sclerosis. So I would imagine there were days that he woke up and he probably felt tired. He probably felt a level of exhaustion that came with the disease. But he just pushed through. He just really just fought through it and didn't want to take any sick days.

Like too many folks in this country. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Theraflu firmly believes that the ability to rest and recover when sick should be a right, not a privilege. And I love that.

Theraflu's right to rest and recover campaign was created to help offset the financial burden that Americans without paid sick leave feel when they take a sick day. So far, seven and a half million workers have been impacted by this initiative, and Theraflu is committed to keeping the fight going, because no one should have to work sick or choose between their health and their job. Learn more or help someone apply for the fund at Theraflu.com slash right to recover. We're so thrilled that Pinesaw is a partner of IMO. Pinesaw has been connected to our family forever. To this day, whenever my sister and I catch the scent of Pinesaw, we automatically feel better about life. The smell of Pinesaw has always taken us back to our childhood home.

It is amazing how smells can transport you to a place or a moment in time. Another smell that takes me back is cherry blossoms, which always remind me of visiting Michelle in D.C. That's why I'm excited for Pinesaw's newest scent, Cherry Blossom. The cleaning power you know and love from Pinesaw is available in a new scent this spring. Cherry Blossom, which is light and fresh and leaves a lasting floral scent, while eliminating tough dirt, grease, and grime. You can use Pine Sal Cherry Blossom multi-surface cleaner to help deodorize and clean

hard, non-porous surfaces, including floors, sinks, counters, stoves, bathtubs, shower stalls, tile, and more. Visit Pinesaw.com to find where to shop PineSall Multi-Surface Cleaner in the new fresh cherry blossom scent. Yes. And especially for Blacksoul. Black women, you know, I mean, we can talk about how hard it is to be chosen in this day and age.

I love to talk about being the choosers, though. I know. I love. Well, let's talk about that. Well, I think, I do think there's this narrative that you have to wait to be chosen and what it means to be chosen by a man. And I think I had that, I call it the Carrie Bradshaw complex. You know, growing up with Sex in the City as kind of the waiting for Mr. Big to show up. And that was my Mr. Big. That was my Black Mr. Big.

And I'm so glad that in that stage of life, God did not give me what I thought I wanted and needed because what I got was what I truly deserve. And I'll tell you, that breakup was the hardest breakup because it represented this like... The breakup with the older guy. The breakup with the older guy that I thought I wanted to do it all with was one of the hardest breakups for me

because it was the disillusion of this constructed, concocted dream that had been fed to me that I embraced as like the only way to do it. That's what I'm, yeah. Right? And it was like this idea that some man is going to come along and save me and choose me and give me this life. You go to New York, you live your big, fabulous life. And then you got to find the guy with the, you know, the money bags, the guy, with all the things going on.

If you really stop, you're like, wait a minute. And we call ourselves feminist. Yeah, that's right. And we're subscribing to this notion. Yes. So it took a lot of unlearning for me to realize that, hold on a minute. I can be that rich, successful man that I was told to marry. Yeah, great.

You can be him. And I can choose the kind of partner that is going to complement my, life, my dreams, and what I want, and vice versa. What flipped that switch for you? Was it the breakup? Jonathan. The breakup was the humbling. But also, I wouldn't just say humbling.

It was a moment of empowerment because I decided to leave that relationship. So what stop you from feeling defeated in that moment? I'm sure I feel defeated. A lot of people, a lot of women will experience a breakup from Mr. Big and they'll think it's me. Because taking that power back in relationships and dating, a lot of us don't do that. So what do you think got you to a better place? It wasn't my first time at the rodeo. Okay.

You know, I had had a couple of relationships before that that taught me this really important lesson. And I remember this is something that Oprah said, you walk at the whisper before it becomes a roar. I had not done that in the relationship prior to date in this older man. And I thought, the one thing I know for sure is that I will never wait for the roar again. And so one of the contracts that we made when we first came together, because just so you know, just so you know Mrs. Obama, I did not know the man's age when we started dating. And he didn't know. I'm not feeling him, this guy. I know you. You like my mama. You like my mama.

My mom told me this summer finally told me. She said that was one of the hardest times of my life as a mother. I'm sure it was hard for her to watch you go through that. And I was like, Mom, you acted like you were fine with it. She was like, that was an act. That's exactly what that was. And if she had said something, you would have dated him for another two years. That's what she said.

That was her expertise at work there. You guys were talking? You know, I could feel it. I can feel it because I don't even know the dude and I'm mad at him. Well, he's out of the picture. Okay, but just so we all are clear here, I did not know his age. He didn't know my age until we were further down the line. So we made a pact with each other and we said, he said, actually, can you let me know if you're ever not having fun?

If you're not happy anymore, will you let me be the first to know? And that coupled with this idea that Oprah, Mrs. Oprah Winfrey has planted in my mind, it allowed me to do these self-traum. check-ins. And the deeper we got into the relationship and the more that I recognized that, while I may not want to have a kid today, I can't really envision my life without the experience of becoming a mom. And when I do that, I really, I want an enthusiastic partner in that. And I will not have that in this. I don't want to drag somebody kicking and screaming into parenthood. I didn't want that for myself. And so I thought, you know, this is one of those decisions.

I am out of crossroads. I can either take what he's willing to give me, or I can cut him loose and allow for the possibility to get what I deserve. Good for you. And so I packed up my clothes. And I left. And you were living with him too. I wasn't living. I was just staying over there a lot.

Okay. I had my own apartment. Okay. I was an independent woman. And I was like, and you were staying over there. By the way, I did not slow down in my career for this relationship. I kept climbing. And, you know, so I'm very proud of myself for that.

I kept on my path. But I decided to leave that relationship to allow for the possibility that it gets better. Yeah. And do you know that I reunited with Jonathan, this kid from church? The church boy. The church boy. The good church boy. The good old church boy.

Did you overlook? They looked right past Jonathan. I sure did. I sure did Mrs. Obama. And now we met up. He happened to be in town. We met up. And I just remember being like,

what did he grow up? Really? Jonathan. Wow. I have always tried to tell, you know, you can't tell your kids anything, but there have been some guys in my daughter's lives that I've been like, don't sleep on him, you know?

That part. The nice ones. The nice ones, right? What is it about the nice ones? That there's an age where you just want something bad. Right. You just want something all wrong. What is that?

I had that. I had that syndrome. But we got to go on our own journeys. And, you know, I will say I'm so grateful for all the frogs of kissed before meeting what truly is my version. Not to be cliche and cheesy, but my version of. Your real Mr. Big. My real Prince charming. And I will tell you right away, I felt at home.

Yeah. I felt my nervous system was calm. It was the opposite of what I felt in these other relationships where it was like, my heart is pounding. It wasn't that. It was this piece. Say that again. No, really. For the people in the back.

Because, well, to share my experience meeting Barack, right? Yeah, I want to hear that love story. There was frog kissing, and to anybody out there, no, you're not a frog, but not the right person. Right. But when I met Barack, and I also think that dating is important. Yeah. You know, because you've got to try on some things to know what really fits, because you might not have been able to appreciate Jonathan had you not dated Mr. Big. That part.

So I dated some bigs. You had some Mr. Bairz? Not old, rich people, but the version of the person who just wasn't right and I knew who they weren't right. But because I had those experiences when Barack showed up and there was, as you described this sort of calm, right? There wasn't this, there was just complete and total honesty and true. trust. This was a man who knew what he wanted. So there was none of the guessing games that I think

we as women get used to playing and kind of enjoy it. Yes. Being with somebody where it's a total, I don't know if he likes me, and maybe he'll call. And, you know, we kind of sometimes get into that game and we mistake that game for love. Yep. But it's a game. And it's an uncomfortable game. If we're honest with ourselves, does he really like me? Did he? Do he really like me? Did he? recall, I don't know what that meant. Nothing is straightforward. Everything is ambiguous. And I met somebody who was unambiguous and clear. And that feeling was new, but it was the right feeling to look for. You know, you shouldn't have to wonder about your goals and visions with the person that's right for you. You should be able to have real clear conversations up front and say,

this is who I am, take it or leave it, who are you? You know, do you believe in marriage? Do you want kids? Let's not play a guessing game. And I try to advise young women in my life not to play games in dating. Ask the questions you need to know and don't be embarrassed by it. Baroque was that comfort zone for me. And it was very clear, very early that he was different. And different is good. You know, different is not about games because I didn't want to deal with somebody that I couldn't talk to, that I couldn't trust, that I didn't know what he thought, that wasn't a good communicator. And sometimes we look right over those people who are in front of us because we're drawn to the game. Yeah. Woo! You know. You're preaching. Yeah. So did you to speak about these things

early on your, in your dating life, did you ask, do you want kids? Did you ask, do you want to be married? Yeah, yeah. And actually, Barack, when we first started dating, would, you know, he was like, well, I'm not really sure if I believe in the institution of marriage. Oh, he was one of those. Yeah. And I was sort of like, really? You know, well, what's that for? And I didn't, you know, it wasn't consistent with, you know, who he was, but he would poke at that, right? Yeah. But he was also the person who asked me out, who said, we should date. I was very hesitant about dating because we worked at the same law firm. I was a year, he's older than me, but I went to law school and was practicing.

Like he hates for me to say I was his mentor. I was going to say it. You were his boss. I wasn't his boss because I wasn't senior enough to give him assignments, but I was sort of helping him adjust. And I sort of thought, well, I shouldn't date. the guy that I was assigned to help. Right. I thought that be tacky.

Especially, we were two of a few black people in the firm. Right. We both went to Harvard. It just felt a little cliche. Yeah. And I didn't want to be that associate, right? Right. But he was like, who cares?

We got to know each other for the first month of the summer. And he was like, you're cute, you're smart, you're funny. Let's go on a date. You know? I was like, no. we shouldn't go on a date. That doesn't seem right. But he was like, he knew what he wanted. He knew what he wanted, right? And he wasn't worried about the job or appearances. He was like, this makes sense to me. And you don't get that a lot from guys, you know? Or I know I didn't get that

a lot from guys. You know, same. I mean, you're guessing for the first few months. And I was like, well, why am I drawn to that and not drawn to the truth, right? So, I chose the truth with Barack. I chose to be with somebody who came to me on clear terms. And so as a result, that's how our relationship started. We were already friends. So we could have these conversations. And I knew he didn't mean the thing about marriage.

But his proposal, which I didn't know was coming, goaded me into this argument about marriage. So Barack had studied and taken the bar, and we had been dating for all through his law school year. So it was about two years. So he took me out to a nice dinner, our favorite fancy restaurant in Chicago, under the guise of celebrating that he finished the bar. Little did I know that he had asked my parents, had gotten a ring. And so we're sitting at dinner. I'm thinking that it's a regular date midway through the on-term. he starts talking about not believing in marriage again. And I was like, don't tell me that's how he went into

his proposal. No. So he was winding me up. And of course, I, you know, I would just not feel in it. So I just went off on him. And I was like, this isn't going to last. And if you don't believe in marriage, don't waste my time. And, you know, and I don't understand. And I wouldn't have kids out of wedlock. You know, we had had this conversation. But he would just winding me up, you know. And I think I was being wound up all through the entree. What a way to get your heart. And then he was not arguing back. He was just sitting there with his finger on his temple, just letting me go.

And then the waiter brought this tray with a silver tray and opened it up and there was the ring. And I was like, what? You didn't just wind me up to, and he got down on one knee in the restaurant and asked me to marry him. He loves to tell that story because he was like, that shut you up, didn't it? I love it. Let's give him a round of applause. You know, I love that so much. And I mean, so romantic. And the two of you are the, you guys are goals.

You know that. Your marriage goals. Well, but that's why I'm always like, we have trouble too. Yeah. Because even when you have hashtag couples goals, marriage is hard. Yep. And it takes work. And I love him dearly.

And I want all couples to understand that, that marriage is work and it's work every day. Being a parent is work. As much as you want it, you know, bringing children into the world, the ones you want it, you know, it'll be the hardest thing you will ever do because it's the most important thing that you will ever do. And I don't want anybody to be blinded by that. So that's why I talk honestly about not just the highs, but about the challenges. Because I think people, young couples give up too quickly when things get hard. Yeah. And it's like, this is hard.

This is a hard thing to do melding two lives together, which is why you've got to be real clear in your choice. Yep. You know. Because even when they're the right, committed man, and you're in love and you're in love. All of it. It's still hard. That's right. So why make it harder going into the relationship where you aren't on the same page about what you ultimately?

That's exactly right. So I'm curious, I want to ask you because it sounds like you were the driver in getting the answers to those questions in the dating phase. What gave you the confidence, though, to really put that question to him and to be willing to walk away if he was not in alignment with you? I think like you, it was the other frogs, other relationships coming out going, why did I, why did I let that happen? Why didn't I say more? Why didn't I? Why wasn't I clearer? That's why I, believe in dating because you need practice. You know, you're going to get some stuff wrong. You're going to, you need to grow up just trying some things on, you know, and be okay with things failing. Be okay with getting your heartbroken because you need to know that you can recover from that too. So I think that it was practice made perfect. So I was a little more ready, a little more sure of myself. Didn't have all the conversations. So, you know, there's still things I look back on 30 years. And I was like, did I agree?

Did I agree to something in this marriage that I wouldn't have, when I was 30, that I've got to renegotiate? And the answer is yes. Because each decade we are learning something different. So you're never going to get it perfect. But I think knowing that this was a serious relationship and that this, that Barack was a serious person, I felt he left. space for the questions. He wasn't defensive about the questions, and maybe that's another cue for folks like Alice. You know, you don't want to be in a relationship with somebody that you can't have really good, hard, honest conversations. You don't have to get married to the person,

but if you're dating, sleeping with somebody, if you're wasting your time with them or investing your time with them. She said, wasting your time. You know, then you're, you should be with somebody that you can talk to. And if they're making you feel like you're intrusive or needy, that's a sign. Yeah. I know that we lived together for a year before we got engaged. And I told Barack, I said, it makes economic sense for us to live together, but just know that this isn't a forever thing.

I don't want this to slip into years and years of living together. Yeah. You know, so it's like if we're moving in together, then the next phase has got to be, we're getting engaged and we're going to get married. How did he respond to that? He was like, yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. Which is why goading me with that question was a little annoying on our engagement night, because I was like, dude. Yeah, we already covered this. We covered this. But no, we were in alignment. And I knew that. And so everything felt right. I felt safe with him. I felt like there wasn't anything that I couldn't talk

to him about. And that's how you're supposed to feel. Yes. And sometimes we have to ask ourselves as women and people, are we not asking the question because we don't really want to know the answer. We want to pretend. We want to be in pretend land. Yeah. So I won't bring it up because the status quo feels okay. It's comfortable. So I will pretend like he didn't just tell me he didn't want kids. Like you said, when they tell you who they are, believe them. the first time. Yeah. And don't be afraid of the question. And I want young women in particular to practice this part of their voice in relationships. To just practice asking for what you want and being clear, but then you got to be okay with not getting the answer that you want.

And I'd rather practice that feeling, right? You'll survive it. Yeah. No, it's okay to hear No, it's okay to hear, I don't love you like that. It's okay to hear. We don't believe in the same things, or I think you're cute, but I don't want to get married. I know it early. Yes. Figure it out sooner. You know, press, press it and don't feel like it makes you look desperate. All it is is you just want clarity. Yeah. It's okay to want clarity. And that's different from being desperate. Yes. There's nothing wrong with clarity. Do not live your life in a far. That's what I would tell Alice, you know. When you're 30 years old and you want things to happen, then don't waste your time with people and just ask the question. It's like, who are you?

What do you want? What do you want out of life? Why don't you want kids? Let's have those conversations sooner rather than later. Now, that doesn't mean having them on the first date. Right. Right. You know, that might be a little too soon.

But once you get to a point where you think you want to spend time with somebody, they should be able to handle these questions, I believe. Absolutely. One thing that we haven't touched on that I think is embedded in Alice's question is this idea that there's an expiration date on her value as a woman and as a prospective partner. She's 30. She's realizing, okay, I wasted six years with this one. And I think that comes with this pressure to close the deal.

Yeah. Because society has told us that there is an expiration date on our value and that at some point men aren't going to want us and they're going to go for the 25 year old girl when they're 50. And listen, that's a phenomenon. We can't ignore that. That's right. But that doesn't have to define your value. And Alice has made the decision for herself that she wants to be a mother. So free yourselves to get what you really want in a life.

And I truly believe that's true love. That is true love. That is setting someone free to live the life that they really, really want. There's no higher love than that. And just because it comes to an end, naturally, doesn't mean that that time wasn't well spent and that you didn't learn and grow during that time. And it doesn't mean that it's a failure. And live, right?

Don't wait on life to come to you. Yeah. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed. Finding the right job or candidate can be a game changer. I know that when it comes to finding talent, it's not about who you know or where you went to school. It's about the skills you have. And whether that's on the court or in a company, that's what should matter most because when someone is hired for what they have to offer, the world works better. Individual abilities are important when recruiting players for your team.

You look for scoring, shooting, rebounding, defending, etc. is the world's largest job site with millions of job seekers looking for work as well as employers offering it, indeed isn't just dedicated to matching people with any job. It's about matching people with the right opportunities and challenging the status quo of hiring. It's about prioritizing skills and being transparent about what you'll be doing, what you'll be paid, and what the workplace will be like. On this podcast, we're all about keeping things real and being honest. And that's also how Indeed views helping the world work better.

Indeed is the place to find what you need. Visit Indeed.com and start finding better work. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Coligard, a non-invasive colon cancer screening test. The Coligard test is a one-of-a-kind way to feel more in control of your colon cancer screening. through a prescription-based test with none of the prep that's required of a colonoscopy. When I was a coach, my players had a team of people helping them with their physical well-being. They had so many tools to make sure every member of the team was on top of their health and wellness. But what I want our listeners to know is that even if you eat well and have a healthy lifestyle,

that does not mean you are low risk for colon cancer. The Kolar test is the only FDA-approved non-invasive option that looks for both altered DNA and blood in your stool, which can indicate the presence of abnormal cells. The good news is that when caught at the early stages, colon cancer is survivable in 90% of people. So screening and early detection are crucial. With zero downtime, no special preparation, and a screening test that's delivered right to your door, we shouldn't let our health take a back seat. So if you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your health care provider about screening for colon cancer with the Coligard test.

You can also request a colagard prescription today at coligard.com slash podcast. The Coligard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not use a coliagard test if you have at adenomas have inflammatory bowel disease and certain hereditary syndromes or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer. The coligard test is not a replacement for colonoscopy in high-risk patients. Coligard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. Colagard is available

by prescription only. The older I get, the more I respect anything that removes one unnecessary errand for my life. But that's hard when you also like things done right, right? Take grocery shopping. Look, if you're someone who can just run into the store and not test the avocados and be in and out in 10 minutes, I'm happy for you. That's not me. With Instacart, you don't have to compromise on quixote.

quality for conveniences sake. It's an app that helps you order delivery on your schedule, giving you a seamless grocery experience. What I like is that through Instacart, I can actually be specific. I can choose what I want, make notes, swap if I need to, and feel like the order is being handled with care. Whether it's a regular grocery run, stuff for dinner, snacks, household essentials, whatever. Delivery through Instacart can show up in as fast as 30 minutes, which is huge when your day is as packed as mine.

Instacart brings convenience, quality, and ease right to your door so you can focus on what matters most. Download the Instacart app now and get groceries just how you like. I would tell Alice, move on from this guy. Yeah. And don't just jump in there. to the next thing.

Work on you. Work on your dreams, your goals, your aspirations, build your life independently. Use this time to make sure your whole. Yes.

And understand yourself because that's, I think, why finding love later can be better because you know more about who you are. That part. So at 30, Alice has got a lot of time to keep growing.

And let love find you as you grow. And if it doesn't, then you've just grown. You know, you're still at a good place. Yes. You know, you might not have, love might not have found you, but you didn't stop your life waiting for it. Yeah. I will tell you, my mom has said to me from the time I was a little girl,

a healthy relationship takes two whole people who got to be whole on their own. And that is something that was like etched into my brain so early on that when I finally was mature enough after the delusion. I lived in the – one thing I want to admit to right here is that I did live in that delusion for a little bit. Yeah, I think we all do. But I was a little bit like, la la la, la. Yeah. We all have done that in our lives.

So it's okay of me, Mrs. Obama. You're not judging me? No, not at all. Okay. Because I can see those moments in myself where I was like, I'm going to make him love me. And, you know, so we all go through that. Yeah. That's why you keep moving through it.

Yeah. But after that part, after the delusional chapter. Yeah, right. Then I moved into this part where I really did fall in love with myself before I fell in love with Jonathan. Yeah. In that in between time. That in between time is truly what I think set me up for a love. lifelong relationship. I think before that point, I would, I would fold into the relationship.

That part. Yeah. You know? And I would become what was good for the relationship. But this time that I spent in between Mr. Big and my actual husband, I cut all my hair off. It was so cliche. I chopped it all off. I decided I'm going to live on my own for the first time. I'm going to make dinner for myself every night. I signed up for a half marathon. I ran the half, the Brooklyn half. And along that time frame, Jonathan came around. And at that point, I was like you, I was like, I'm not really rushing into this. Because I'm liking this.

I'm doing me right now. And I'm tired of being in these, being a serial monogamous. And it's almost like I had these mini marriages. And I was like, I just want to be, I want to be married to me. And Jonathan had to catch up with you. And you know who was waiting for me at the end of the finish line at that half marathon. with Gatorade and some oranges. It was Jonathan.

And he waited for me and he said, don't worry, I'll be here. And it's that type of partner that knows it's you, that will wait for you, that will show up for you, that feels like home. Like, that's the guy that you marry ultimately. So I want that, I want that for Alice. I want that for her. It's okay. Six years with someone, you're 30, that's fine. That's okay.

But like, what do you want out of life? Make space for that. Alice is wondering whether they're men who change their minds. I mean, yeah, people change their minds in life for sure, you know. I definitely know people who thought they'd never get married or thought they didn't want to have kids. So it is possible. If he's saying no, he can change his mind, but do you really want to wait? Right. How long are you willing to wait? Are you willing to wait to see if he would change his mind? I'm just afraid for her for what that question means. It's like she's wanting to wait. She's hoping. If she were my daughter, I would go, mm-hmm, really. Why don't you date?

Why don't you just keep the door open? You know, if you thought about that, I'd probably ask a question like that. So I don't know. What do you think? Have I ever seen a man change his mind about having children? I don't think that I have. I don't think that I have. I wasn't willing to wait around and see. Let me put that in my own situation.

One of the things I say to people as they're thinking about picking a mate, you got to think about like a partner is a member. member of your basketball team. Ooh, I like this. It's like, if you were picking players to play on a team, you wouldn't just pick a shooter. Everybody has to be able to do it all. Yeah. Each person in a couple has to be able and willing to do it all. Yep. So you don't want to marry a man who's like, I don't cook. It's like, well, what happens if I can't cook? Right. How are we going to survive? Yeah, you just don't do laundry. Life is so unpredictable and complicated and then add in kids, right?

If you're married to a man that doesn't do house chores and you've had given birth and you've had a cesarean and you can't be on your feet or heaven forbid you have a difficult pregnancy and you come home and he can't do anything, he's never been grocery shopping, you know, or if you're the woman and you can't balance the checkbook because you've left that to him. life is too complicated for two partners not to be real equals in it, you know, because you just don't know what's going to come. You can make decisions throughout the marriage of who's doing what, but everybody's got to be able to do everything, especially when kids are involved. Amen. And so that, you know, you got to look for a whole person, and you've got to be a whole person. And I want men to hear this, and I want mothers raising men to hear this too.

Teach these men how to be whole. Do not come into a relationship talking about what you aren't going to do, what you don't believe in, and men and women's roles. I mean, if it works out for you, great. But then don't let life happen to you. Right. Because then what? Right. You've never learned how to do anything other than the thing that a man is supposed to do.

I wouldn't want that dude. I'm curious, you have two daughters who get this, who've gotten this, their whole lives. Like, how have you seen this advice play out in your child's relationships? And have you been able to kind of see the fruits of all of your wisdom with them? I think like your mother, right, you don't know whether they're actually listening to you. You know, I mean... We're listening. I want to tell you.

We're listening. I'm learning that now because they're now, they're 26 and 23, right? And this is the age where I can see, oh, you were listening. Yeah. I lecture, I talk, we talk, we talk. That's all I've been doing with these girls talking and talking honestly. Yeah. Making sure that they feel like they can ask me anything, which means like your mother,

you got to learn to have that poker face. because if you get too involved, then they don't come back. So I spend a lot of time, especially when they went away to college and living on their own conversations or this. Really? Whoa. Wow. Tell me more. Right?

It's like they're like cats. It's like don't hold them too tight. Don't squeeze them because they'll never come back. I try not to be too judgmental. You know, I try not to be too heavy-handed, but I talk to them in the way that I'm talking to you. I share the mistakes that I made. I share the things that work in our marriage without getting them to involve, right? Just making sure they're seeing the good, the bad, they know that I'm human.

They hear my stories so they feel like they can tell me theirs. And the real learning comes in these kind of conversations, right? Choices that they're making so far are ones that I'm like, okay. Yeah. All right. Not always perfect, but watching them turn the corner and understanding their worth. So I just want my girls to be open and to use their voice in relationships. It is scary to let your kids make their own choices and to,

suffer their own consequences, you know. Especially when you know better. Especially when you know better. Oh my gosh. It's just like, I've done this. You know, I'm raising my hand in the room. It's like, I know the answer, you guys. Look at me.

Pick me. Right. I can tell you this. I really do know. And, you know, they have to hit the wall. Ugh. You know? I wouldn't be the mom that I am if I didn't have the kind of mom that I had.

And it sounds like you guys are definitely playing from the same mom playbook. You're doing good. You're doing good. Well, I think that if we could sum up our advice to Alice, we've had a full-throated conversation. I think what would you, if you had to give three pieces of advice that summed up what you think Alice should be thinking about, what would you tell her? Well, I'm going to take a page out of your book and I'm going to use an analogy that I just read yesterday that was about writing a book. So basically, making hard decisions about your life is kind of like driving a car in the dark with headlights on. You can only see but so far in front of you. Right? Like the light only shines just so much in front of you.

And you can make the whole trip by just making the best decisions based on what you can see right in front of you. You don't need to be able to see the whole road. even when the rest is dark, you can see this much. And so I would say, make the best decision for your life based on what you can see from where you're sitting right now.

And if you can see that this man doesn't want what you want in the long run, it's okay to pivot. And I think your life is going to be full of beautiful pivots. You don't have to stay on the road that you're on just because you traveled it this far,

you can make a left turn and you don't have to be a ride or die. You don't got to die, okay? Just to ride, you can say, I've, I want to live. I don't want to live. I don't want to die. Yeah, yeah. So what's the point of being a ride or die? What is the point?

Because I don't actually want to die. So the ride has been nice. Right. To this point, sir. I'm getting off. Right. And this is where you can let yourself out. Yeah.

And I'm going that way. And I think just allow yourself, and I know it's so scary when you can't see what's ahead, and you're like, does this mean I'm going to be alone forever? Will I ever find somebody that loves me this much? We've invested so much time. Like, I overstand all of that because I have lived it multiple times. But you got to just keep making the best decisions based on what's right in front of you and trust that what is in the dark will come to the light. And it could be even more beautiful than you could ever imagine. So that would be my closing statement.

I love that. And your mom is going to hear this podcast conversation and you know what she's going to say. What is she going to say? Oh, Lord. You told your business to the whole world and to Mrs. Obama. She is going to say, wow, you know, I knew I knew Lainey had it in her, you know. She was listening all this time, you know. And that's the beauty of parenthood.

That's some of the proudest moments you'll have as a parent. And for Alice, if motherhood is something that she wants, then I wouldn't give it up. I wouldn't give up that dream. Not at 30. I want Alice to know she's young. There is time. People are becoming mothers later in life. I would encourage her to look at freezing her eggs.

Just give herself some time. but do not settle. Do not try to force somebody into a life that isn't for them because marriage and family is hard enough. So you want to do it with somebody who wants what you want as much as you want it. And you shouldn't have to talk somebody into your dream. Ask for what you want. Find out the information you need. Don't allow game playing to take over the dynamic of the relationship, especially as we get older. We just don't have to. Ain't nobody got time for that. Ain't nobody got time for that.

So find out what you need to know. And if you're with the right person, those questions won't be intimidating. And if they are, that's a sign that that person's not for you. If they can't answer some basic questions, if you can't have some good conversations about life and expectations, then that's a cue that just date them. Don't marry them. Yeah. But Elaine, thank you so much. for this was this filled me up. I'm really proud of the the woman that you have become. So thank you for taking the time. Thank you for the joy of being able to share some of these stories with you. And yeah, I just feel so blessed by this conversation. My heart is so full. You got me out here about to cry. I don't know if it's the hormones.

But thank you. This was such a beautiful conversation. Well, I'd love to get you back. Thank you so much.