IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Fight For Your Dream Job with Victoria Monét

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

Grammy-winning artist Victoria Monét joins Michelle and Craig to help a listener who’s falling out of love with her dream job. Victoria talks about the twists and turns it took to set up her own career and how she refused to give up motherhood along the way. She and Craig connect over the embarrassment that can come with telling others about your ambitious goals and how to separate your work identity with your purpose. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I had a person on my team, though the intentions were good, really, really hurt my feelings because they made a PowerPoint presentation to me about how difficult it will be for me. So how much childcare is. Wait, this was somebody on your team? Yeah. Ooh. Yeah. And the finale of the presentation was, what's the rush?

So it felt like an encouragement to get. an abortion. This episode is brought to you by Pinesol and Chase Home Lending. Well, good afternoon. How are you? I'm doing great. I'm doing great. The sun is shining.

Its spring has arrived here in D.C. And this is one of the best times of the year here in the city. So glad to have you here. You know what I noticed being here? My allergies aren't bothering me. Well, that's interesting because this is. allergy season here. So you must be taking care of yourself. You've taken your medicine. I haven't taken anything. I feel really good. I got a good night's sleep.

Walked around the neighborhood a little bit last night after I finally got home from having dinner with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We had a good time. How are you doing? I am doing pretty well, you know. As long as I'm still in that place, as long as my kids are good. Our kids are good. I'm doing good. I'm having fun. We're with this podcast. We have had some great guests. We got another great guest here with us today that we'll get to. But, but I feel good. And I'm happy to be here with you. What's happening in Milwaukee? You driving around in your new, I am driving around in my new Rivian. And for those of you who don't remember, Rivian gifted the two of us with nice vehicles, the R1S to drive around. And I've been tooling around. We have officially made it our number

one car to drive in the house. That's a smart move. Smart move. It is a beautiful car. And it is easy to drive. And I have driven it just a little bit. I'm going to have some more time with it this summer. But you have been driving it more than I have. I have. I have. And I'm getting to know it a little bit better. And you know what my favorite feature is other than not having to go to the gas station? What is it? Is the navigational system. Okay. What's the screen? The screen is gigantic. So in my old man eyes, I can see it very clearly. And not only is it a big screen, but it is in 3D. And you know, I love me some 3D maps. So, no, it's been, it's that that's one of many features, but that's one of my favorite features. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm looking forward to tool.

around. Good, good. Well, you know, I got some real credibility points with my boys when I told him who our guest was going to be on today. Okay, so what did you, what did they say? What did you say? What did you say? So you guys have to picture this. Picture us sitting at the kitchen table and our boys are not paying attention to what anything Kelly and I are talking about, right? Because they are 15 and. They are 15 and And one's watching the basketball game and the other one's eating or something. It's 15 and 13. And the 13-year-old is the youngest of four. So, you know, he's already cool and doesn't talk to anybody.

So she said, so who's going to be on this time? And I'm going through the whole thing. And I said, and then on the last day, the last person we're talking to is Victoria Monet. And the 13-year-old goes like this. So for those of you and the audio folks who did, I just snout. my head around and looked at my sister. He looked at me and he said, now that's a quality guest. Quality. That's what he said to me. Quality. Instead of it. Everybody else we've talked to. Yeah, that's a quality guest.

Well, Victoria is a quality guest. She is a three-time Grammy winner and songwriter. And now a children's book author. I know. I'm so excited to talk about that project. Her debut book, Everywhere you are is a heartfelt tribute to working parents, which we have both been, and their little ones inspired by her own journey as a parent. And it features her four-year-old daughter, Hazel, who I guess you've met. Yeah, yeah. She's a cutie boots for sure. She's voicing the audiobook at four years old.

That's awesome. So without any further ado, can we see our good new friend here? Come on in, Victoria. Good to see you too. Thank you for being. Nice to meet you. Nice for being on here. And please tell the children I said hello.

And thank you for calling equality. I appreciate that. Colony. Quality. Because at 13, they know something about quality. He doesn't say, you know, he's a man of few words too. So for him to just say, okay, now that's a quality guest. I love it.

Thank you. Well, the last time we were together. We were trying to help the people, weren't we? Yes. Victoria joined me along with a wonderful group of celebrity supporters in Atlanta in the middle of this past elections to try to get young people out to vote. And Victoria, you know, because we don't have a budget to fly people out. And so the celebrities that involved cared, flew themselves out, got themselves out there. and spoke passionately about the importance of voting. And again, Victoria, I just want to thank you for

using your voice and your platform for something very, very important. Thank you so much. And you spoke. So this is the first time I heard you speaking. Yes. And you were brilliant. Thank you. Thank you. In addition to everything else, you are a phenomenal speaker. I appreciate that. Speaking from your heart and, you know, just offering some wisdom. at the same time. Just want to make a difference. Yeah. Well, we'll have to try again.

Yes. Come on. Come on. Yes, truly. Maybe now we know. Right. But it's great to have you here with us. Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited to be here and chat with you guys. Yeah. Terrific. So you're living in L.A. L.A. is home. Has it been home for a while? Since 2009, I've lived in L.A. So it's been quite some time, like my full adult life, all of the restaurants,

and parties, like everything has been LA-based. But I'm from Sacramento. Yeah. Family from Mobile, Alabama. Because everybody's from Alabama. Yeah. Finally, I just met Dr. Sharon, and she's telling me she's from Mobile and she knows my family. I'm like, what a small

big world. It's like, that's how it is. It's small amongst black folks. Right. For sure. Right. Well, I, you know, we want our listeners to really get to know you. You know, everybody knows you a mega star now. Thank you. from somewhere, right?

So tell us about your path to hear. I know, it's a long one. So I'll let you pick the parts of it, but you've been dancing, singing, writing for a long, long time. Yeah, it's been a passion of mine since I was really young. I actually started with dance. I feel like as an only child, that gave me the confidence because it's a group sport.

You get to be on stage, but you're not by yourself. You're like, you can either fade into the background or take the center stage. So me, you know, developing my craft with dance first, gave me the confidence to use my voice and start writing and singing. And I moved to L.A. off of an audition for a girl group in 2009. So I was working as a bank teller at the time in Sacramento. How old were you?

I was 19. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I got an email on, I'm giving my age away, MySpace. You're talking to us. No matter what age, can you're way younger than we are. Yeah, so one of the first social media experiences I feel like was MySpace. And so I got an email for an audition.

So I went on the audition. I asked my friends if I should go or not because it didn't financially make sense. But I was like, I'm going to take the chance. So I ended up making it into this girl group, which prompted us to move to L.A. within two weeks after that audition. So I just packed everything on up. And us being who? There was two other girls in the girl group.

You, on your own solo, as no parents, no anything. No. Yeah. Just me and a dream. Yeah. What did your parents think about it? My mother was like, this is, she was worried. Yeah.

But I was like, Mom, I'm serious. It felt very much like a sister act. I just want to dance. I just want to do this. So I was on my way. Wait. How old were you when you realized that you, I know you did the dance and all of that, but when did it hit you like, okay, I want to be a performer as a profession.

Yeah, I was watching this movie with my grandma. I don't remember what age exactly, but I want to say probably like eight, nine, where Holly Berry was playing Dorothy Dandridge. Oh, yeah. Yes. And I was like, I want to be a trip with it. I love the, you know, the challenges that she's facing and overcoming. I want to be singing and dancing and musicals. And I used to love movies like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang or...

Oh, yeah, true. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Turner School classic channel. Yes, Dick Van Dyke. Dick Van Dyke is my favorite performer of all times. He's amazing. He's amazing and like just such a class act.

You like the old school folks. I do. I do. Even musically, I like I tend to go vintage. So like 60s, 70s, Motown. Okay. And, you know, temptations were one of my favorites. Did you get introduced to that through your family?

Or is that just your old soul taste? Well, my mom actually told me that she thinks I was here before because somehow I knew the lyrics. But I think that just came from what my family was playing. Like, when we get together with our family reunions or events, like, it was just a good time with that type of music. Or pool parties. Like, that was the kind of stuff that was playing. that and then like 90s R&B. But it just sounded

so good. I feel like I really connected with live instrumentation. Like people playing horns and strings and flutes. It just all sounded so beautiful. So when, you know, in the digital era where people can make music

on a laptop and you can play the keys but be having the sound come out as a guitar, I really value people who have you know, spent the time mastering true instrumentation. Did you come from a musical family, a talented family? What's that DNA?

My mom sang and danced. She definitely danced around the house while she was cleaning. She was actually listening to Uncle Luke. Sorry, Mom. And my grandma was listening to the oldies. So it just reminds me so much of like a Sunday morning, you know, cleaning the house. It just feels so much nostalgia.

My grandpa played saxophone and harmonica and my grandma sang opera. So it's like my aunt's sing. So it was around. But no one had pursued it as a career. It just kind of felt like I viewed it as an extracurricular activity you can do. Right. But go to college and, you know, do the other way to pursue a career was the way that they wanted me to go, which I understood. So you were the first one in the family to really break out and say, I'm doing this.

The crazy one. I'm getting on the bus. I'm out of here. Going to the big city with my girl group. Yeah. Yeah. So from there, so many twists and turns, I was writing. I became a songwriter because I was still in a record deal that wasn't necessarily favorable.

Oh, and that sounds familiar. That is the story of everybody's first. It's like I guess you got to get jumped in or something. I don't know. But yeah, so I had to find my way out of that and take the songwriting path. And that's how I ended up gaining more success as a songwriter first and then transitioning into artistry. So wait, what happened to the girl band, the girl group?

Oh, it got dropped. We actually got signed to Motown, which was so exciting because it was a dream listening to the music with my grandma. Sure. So it was so excited. And she had actually passed the. year that I moved to LA, so I felt like she had her hand on that. What was your first songwriting break?

When did it hit for you as a songwriter? I had a lot of success with Ariana Grande, writing alongside her since her first album. And then we just got really, really close. She named her tour after a song that I had written with her called Honeymoon Avenue. And then we just figured that we were musical soulmates and we just kept going and became a friendship and a partnership and so much fun. You know, when you get to work with your friends, there's nothing like that, you know. So I had a lot of success with her as a songwriter. Yeah, you see.

We're learning that. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's so beautiful. Just have family business or business with friends. When you look around at the people surrounding you, you want to be inspired by them and be able to bring them up with you. Yeah. In this next segment, presented by our friends at Chase Home Lending, we'll discuss what it's like to turn dreams into doorsteps. Every home has a story and every homeowner has faced unexpected challenges along the way.

From financial hurdles to finding the perfect neighborhood, Chase is here to demystify the journey and make home ownership a more attainable goal. Oh, I wish our parents had had that growing up. I know. I know. You know, we started out in a what would be called a co-op or a project in Parkway Garden Homes. And then we. Or they rented. We rented and we lived next to our grandparents. Our grandparents who rented. I mean, at that point, nobody was a homeowner. Yeah, yeah. And then our great Aunt Robbie moved to South Shore and bought a home. She and her husband because they were, they didn't, they were older couple. They never had. their own children. Robbie was a teacher. Terry, her husband, had a good retirement plan as a

Pullman Porter, a good pension. So they were the first people that we knew of that own their home. Yeah. And they were kind enough to allow us to rent the upper floor of a two-family house. Yeah. And that was really our first taste of being around people who were homeowners. And living above someone as renters, right? And we were little kids living above these two older folks. So we had to be careful after a certain time. I wanted to be quiet, didn't want to go stomping around, running around. Couldn't have a dog.

And I know you wanted a dog. I know you always say mom didn't want a dog, but I know if you had wanted a dog, you would have gotten a dog. Yeah, yeah. They were allergic to dogs, so they didn't want to have a dog. And I always dreamed, I used to beg Dad, can we buy our own home? Because I wanted stairs, right? Yes, you wanted a second floor bedroom. I remember that.

But it was something that they were a little cautious about, very cautious about. And Dad used to say, I don't want to be house poor. And at the time, he would explain that having a mortgage was a tough thing. And then later in life, we figured out that was a great way to build wealth. Yeah, yeah. We started building our careers and realizing what our parents missed. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad we figured it out.

And thanks to Chase Home Lending for sponsoring this segment. They understand that buying a home is a journey and having the right support makes all the difference. Chase is here to help with smart digital tools and expert guidance so you can make informed decisions with confidence. Dreaming of a home, ready to take that next step. up, connect with a lending advisor today at chase.com slash start and start turning your home ownership dreams into a reality. Member FDIC, Equal Housing Opportunity. So then you decide, okay, I've written a lot of hits for a lot of people. Now it's my turn. Yes. When did you go from writing to writing for yourself and how old were you when that happened? And because I'm trying to get the

The timeline too. Yes. You're still a baby in my eyes. Thank you. Well, I think that once I had, well, I was, let's start by saying I was always writing for myself in the background. It just wasn't lucrative. So I needed to take on different job titles in order, within music,

in order to make ends meet. So I started to become a vocal producer. So, and I learned how to engineer. so in Pro Tools so that I can record myself and others. And those were the types of jobs within music that I could get money on the same day or week. As far as songwriting, it's a bit of a journey because you don't get income until the song, nine months after the song comes out, which is still not right away because you have to, you know, artists are working on an album maybe for a year at a time.

So if you wrote a song in January, maybe it'll come out next January and then nine months from there, you will see some royalties. So I needed to find positions that would pay, you know, quickly. So I ended up doing that. So you just had your hustle game. Hustling. Yeah, that's good. Because it's interesting because a lot of people want to go into music.

They, you know, they don't understand the lag time, where the money is actually made. Yes. They just see the end result. Right. But being the star, isn't always the thing that pays. It's not always shiny either. Yeah, yeah.

But it's when you're able to do what you love, sometimes that money doesn't matter. Like I didn't need to be rich and successful. I just needed to eat, you know, and I would do it a million times over because I just love what I do. But it is nice to also be rewarded with even more. than you anticipate for what you love to do.

Yeah, yeah. And then came Hazel. Yes, she was a pandemic, baby. There was nothing to do. But I feel like that was a perfect timing. It was almost like there was an intermission in my career too to be able to let my body go through that and then come back to self.

And she's been the biggest blessing. It was almost like I had these preconceived notions that, you know, having a child would suspend career or make things even more difficult. But God just was like, nope. But it's been so fun. Yeah, yeah. Now, there are so many women out there in the midst of their careers. And, you know, where becoming a mother is stressful.

Yes. Because they don't always know how it's going to be received. Did you go through any of that? Because you were very young in the middle of your career. And, of course, all kids are a blessing. Right. But, you know, did you have any fears, any doubts? Were you afraid at any point that this pregnancy was going to upend everything?

Yeah. Talk a bit about that. So when I got pregnant, I was an independent artist. I was working with this company called Patoon. working out of the UK. And when you're an artist, though you're a human, you're technically the business. So to have to explain to someone who is a partner in your business that your business may slow down because of pregnancy is difficult. But it's also something that you're supposed to feel celebratory about because it's a blessing.

And not everybody gets an opportunity that wants it. So you should be thankful. So it was a balance for me of being celebrated. about it, but also kind of apologizing to my partners that it was a weird thing for me to try to navigate. How did you approach to that conversation? It was a Zoom call. Oh, yes.

So, yeah. So I want to think, you know, I'm pregnant. It was just like, in retrospect, it was, it was really, really disheartening. And I had a person on my team, though the intention. were good really, really hurt my feelings because they made a PowerPoint presentation to me about how difficult it will be for me. So how much childcare is. Wait, this was somebody on your team? Yeah. Ooh. Yeah. And the finale of the presentation was, what's the rush? So it felt like an encouragement to get an abortion. Wow. So that was really, really hurtful.

And I walked out of that meeting. And this was a meeting with a bunch of people. Just me and this person. Oh, okay. This particular meeting with just me and this person. And I walked out of that meeting with that same fight that I had when I left home. Like, I'm going to. No, I'm going to do this.

Yeah. And it's my body. And I'm going to make it work even if it's hard. I'm not scared of hard things. I can do hard things. And, yeah, it was very, very emotional. especially in the time. And how old were you when all this was going on?

I wanted to say it was 32, 31, 32. You know, and the pandemic. You were grown, but still, you know. Yeah. So to be apologizing for it, it felt like a big contradiction and spiritually. But I know that the intention of the person wasn't to harm me. They just wanted to let me know how big of a decision it is to keep

and also balance the expectations for what my, career may or may not do after that. But I walked hand in hand with God and he, that's, it's, it's amazing that one of my biggest songs is On My Mama because it's so full circle to my intention and purpose for having her. Yeah. Well, it adds a whole new level of meaning to the song. I mean, all of us are popular. And we think, yeah, it's like, oh, my mama, right? You know, yeah. Yes. Yes, it's beautiful. Well, it's so important for you to share that because there's so many of us as women out here working, trying to keep families together, hold on to our careers. Yes. So many women will be able to identify with that fear, with the pressure, you know, to doubt the path that you're in.

Yeah. Even something as precious as motherhood because a lot of industries don't make space for mothers. Right. So how did you make space for your mothering in your career? Because you didn't lose a step. Things might have been slow. But how did you do it? How did you manage to manage that balance?

And I know you're still managing it. Yes. I think one of the best things that I was able to conquer is time management. And luckily I had put in 10,000 plus hours. before I had her. So I felt like I was able to do what I, what would have took me 10 hours in three hours because I had, you know, worked on my craft so much.

So I had to exercise that muscle. And also having a healthy relationship with my, my child's father, even though we aren't together anymore, having a healthy co-parenting relationship so that she feels like, even when I'm not there, there's someone who loves her just as much right next to her. I'm glad you brought her.

that up because for us men and partners out there, how have you been able to keep such a healthy relationship even after you guys have broken up? Because as a divorced person, it doesn't always turn out that way. Yeah. So can you give us some advice on as partners on how to handle that? Talk to the men. Talk to, okay. So fellas, please keep as much information. information off the internet as you can. As much negative information. If it's positive, let the world know. But if it's negative and if it's critique,

just please make sure that happens directly to who it needs to happen with versus the embarrassment of the world having to know. And what social media makes it so easy to make impulse posts, impulsive posts or for news to travel or screenshots to go up. And I just feel like the world doesn't delete your feelings and get over your feelings the way you do. So maybe you may feel that way today. And then two years from now, you guys may be best friends, but the world is still hanging on to what you said about that person.

It's like, you know, if you tell your friends or your mom that you got in an argument and your mom just never forgives that person. Yes. I know exactly what you're talking about. And sometimes you have to deal with it directly instead of letting everybody know every negative thought. Because we are protective beings and we want to protect the people we love. And sometimes, you know, everything it took for you to make up with that person, you're not communicating those things with the people that you let know about the flaws.

Right. So sometimes it's just better to talk directly to the person or to a therapist only. How specifically has Hazel's father help you with the balance? Because there are some men who are like, I don't do this, I don't do that. Talk about, because I also think that's what kind of advice you're thinking about that. Men don't know how to. That was the next question, because we don't necessarily know how to support a woman whose career is as big as yours and as busy as yours. Yes. That's a really, really great question. I feel maybe the answer is a lot of patience and understanding and empathy.

It's almost like when I'm asking him to watch Hazel for a career move, I have to be able to have that same grace. It's not a one-way street. So if he wants to make a mover or just be outside for a night and he wants to go out, I have to have that grace and say, yes, I'll watch her. I know he may be outside, I meet somebody else. You know, it's like all of those things are in consideration. But it just really takes a lot of patience and grace, prayer, great communication, making sure that you are considered of how you're saying something versus what you're saying. And I honestly, I want to ask him how he does it as well because it is not, I'm seeing so much chaos in our community regarding children and the separation of parents. And we all know that it's quite normal these days for things not to last.

So how is it that our community can better navigate those hard moments? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. You said you want to ask him how he does it. Yeah. Because it sounds, before you said that, I was thinking that you guys got together and had a meeting and said, okay, here are the things that we need to go over to make this work.

Yeah. But it sounds like this was more trial and error or? Well, we did say that we were going to stay offline on anything that would negatively affect either of our images. And that Hazel could eventually read and see. So that was the main agreement. But beyond that, the daily back and forth, I feel like he should probably have a platform to speak on it. because I know dads around the world are going through this and they don't know how to balance

their emotions or their maybe potential rage and disappointment that the relationship didn't work out or jealousy or financial burdens. And being single parents on the other end.

Because when they have the child assuming and hopefully they're involved, they're going to be moments where they're operating as a single dad, right, you know, which we, you know, a lot of women understand that balance. But where men who, when they are able to talk about those challenges and how are they finding that balance, men don't talk about that. Yeah.

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This back-to-school season, spend less on your kids with Amazon. I remember when my wife Kelly and I would be running around to a million different stores chasing down spiral notebooks, lunch boxes, and that one specific calculator that somehow every math teacher requires. And look, I love my kids, but I do not love fighting over the last pack of highlighters in a crowded store at 7 p.m. on a Tuesday. That's why I love Amazon. Amazon has everything for back to school.

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with my kids. We're doing movie nights, bike rides, and even, dare I say, back-to-school fashion shows in the living room. Parents, do yourself a favor. Go to Amazon. Get your back-to-school checklist done in like five minutes while saving a few bucks. So remember, with Amazon's low back-to-school prices, just spend less on your kids because every dollar you don't spend on them is a dollar you haven't spent on them. So when Hazel comes to you and says, hey, mom, I want to be a performer.

She has said that already. Oh, my gosh. Well, she's already done some voiceover work on the book. Yes, yes. And she also, in 2024, along with my first Grammy nominations as an artist, she became the first, the youngest Grammy nominee in history. So it's like, God is really just nailing in the idea that everything that you wanted is tenfold with your child by your side. And you're doing things that you're supposed to do and making a difference in her life. And you will be rewarded in that way.

Well, and your current project, your book, everywhere you are, tell us about the motivation behind writing this book. We've got a copy of it. Yes. Yes. So the inspiration really is to combat children with separation anxiety and parents with parent guilt who have to balance work and family life. And I feel like that's about everybody. Yeah. You know, I was reading something, somewhere where it was explaining why children enjoy peekaboo as children. It's because when you disappear, they actually view you as gone. So it's like you're doing this magic trick. Like you're disappearing and coming back. So I started to think about how, well, if I'm actually gone, what is she thinking? Yeah.

You know, and for the hours, eight hours a day, you know, that I'm working or any parent is working. What does she feel? So I just wanted to make something tangible that a parent can read or an uncle or an aunt can read that doesn't live out of town. How do you combat your guilt? Sometimes. Because I'm just assuming you have it because we all do. 100%. 100%.

I think one explaining things to her helps me. As aren't kids really smart? They understand a lot more. Sometimes we give them credit for it. And a lot of times when parents say to their child, they're going to work, but they're doing it for the child. My approach is, I'm doing this for you and for me, so that she knows mommy has dreams and she has her own identity too. And she can be proud to know that none of that was given up on because of her existence. Because sometimes the story goes that we say, I gave up everything for you.

And that, although it sounds, it's, yeah, it pressure. the love and the capacity. And so the child feels guilty instead and the parent feels resentful to their motherhood or fatherhood. And so I just wanted to change that narrative a bit and say, you know what, I have dreams and I'm going to go pursue them. And everything that I get from this pursuit, you will benefit from. But it's also my dream. And I won't want to give up on that for me and when you get a dream, I don't want you to give up on that for you. And amazingly, they understand. How does, how do you get the sense that Hazel gets it?

And I know it's, you know, she's going to go through her phases. But as a mom, you know her and you know what she's understanding. Yes. And what she isn't. I think that it came down to her reaction when I leave. And her reaction when I get back is really, really helpful. So at the beginning, it was lots of tears and that separation is so difficult. Like that first day of school, you're like, I sat in the car that day and I was like, am I doing the right thing?

She doesn't technically need school right now because maybe I'll just wait until she actually is in kindergarten. She was two at the time. But I needed her to have some social skills because she was a pandemic baby. So she was like, I don't like anybody with my kids. So I needed her to hear about more. Break this now. Yes. Yeah, it was important to do.

You made some friends, those two-year-old. Please. Y'all go have your conversations. But that first day, I was like, I don't know if I'm, this is right. It felt so heavy. And then she realizes that she's autonomous and independent and she can have a great day, whether or not Mommy's smiling in her face or whether or not Mommy gives her a lollipop. She can create it on her own.

So knowing that she has that confidence. was helpful to know that it's okay to give some distance and come back, give some opportunity to be missed and come back, create some emotional resilience. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. We are grateful to you and Hazel.

Thank you. For making it happen. That's right. Thank you. And this is this, you know, on IMO, we have a question from one of our listeners. And so this is a perfect time to pivot to that. Okay. And our question today is from Lily, from who lives in Virginia.

Hey, Lily. Lily. Hi, Michelle and Craig. I'm in my late 20s and have been doing something I absolutely love since I had my first job at age 16, teaching dance. I have taught dance every year since and still love it just as much. I did all my undergrad projects on dance, and after COVID, I earned my master's in dance education. I'm now at my first full-time job at a nonprofit doing what I love every day, creating curricula and teaching dance. I've been here for just over two years.

As much as I love this work, I'm also extremely stressed out and anxious. My job has begun to take such a mental and emotional toll on me that I dread meeting new people because I know the question, what do you do, will come up. For some reason, I now hate telling people about my work because it stresses me out all over again. When I'm not there, I try my hardest not to think about it. I have an amazing therapist that I've been working on this with for quite a while, but I'm still confused about why I dread talking about the job I've always felt so passionately for. How normal is this? Does this just mean that I'm burnt out? Or is this a sign that this work is no longer for me?

Have you ever felt this worn out by your work? And if so, how did you manage to keep going? Thank you. Now, we have not had a question so perfect for our guest than this one. Yes, I understand it completely, Lily. I would say, I feel like there's a couple layers to this question. One is the anticipation of the question, what do you do? And the answer being a description of your job versus the purpose of your job. So if the question comes, I would maybe reframe the answer as I help people manifest their true destiny. I help people perfect their dream and their craft.

I help people get better. Instead of saying, I am a dance teacher, you know, like that title, just maybe reframing that. And then the other layer, I think, to the question is two things can be true at once. You can love what you do, but it can also be really hard and draining. You can love the person you with, but they can also get on your nerves. You know, so it's okay to change, change what you do if that's what you feel like you should do and take some space away from it. I think if saying you're a dance teacher doesn't feel good right now and it's been since you're 16, that's okay to try something else because your 16-year-old dream. You've been through so many versions of yourself since then.

So it's okay not to have the exact same vision for yourself. And maybe then dance teaching can become something you do as an extracurricular activity versus your sole job or sole income. So it's possible to have a bit of a plot twist. And then if it's still something, if it's something that you miss, you may return. Life can take you through so many twists and turns and different journeys. and maybe sometimes it could be your gut telling you, hey, let's try something else for a little bit. And that's completely okay.

Your job doesn't have to be your identity forever. You know, I relate to it as a songwriter as well because when I started, I was an artist moving to L.A. And then I got a lot of success from songwriting. So everybody who met me was like, oh, the songwriter, the songwriter, the songwriter. And it wasn't until I did something else more than I did the other thing that they recognized me as that. Oh, the artist, the artist. It's like any job, if you meet somebody and they say, oh, yeah, I'm, for example, a janitor.

They're going to realize that that's what you are. And then until you become a teacher and you're teaching outweighs the time that you spend as a janitor, then they will identify you as a teacher. So it just becomes what you spend. most of your time doing. And that can always change. You don't have to remain the same person that you introduce yourself as to anybody. Now, Victoria, did you ever, I mean, you were so focused on becoming an artist or a performer or whatever, however you want to label it. Are you ever embarrassed to say that's what you were or that's who you wanted to be?

I wouldn't say embarrassed, but also, but more so, what is the word? It felt like an ambitious statement. Like inside people may be like, yeah, okay. Oh, so you didn't want to sound like you were bragging. It's like, my husband, I want to be president of the United States. It's like, no, you might want to keep that too. It's so funny. Oh, that's so nice.

You want to be president. Exactly. That is that. Or like when someone's like, I want to play basketball and I'm going to be the best basketball player ever. And you're like, okay. I'm going to play in the NBA. You're surrounded by. I am surrounded by people who do that.

But I will say, I will say to Lily's point when, see, I'm so old, there was not the Internet. So I didn't grow up wanting to be an NBA player. It's sort of just developed. But even as I was heading in that direction, I'd never wanted to tell. tell people I was a basketball player. So I understand. And why was that? Because I didn't want to be a pigeonholed in, oh, he's just a basketball player.

Okay. Now, I don't know how many people have that feeling now because basketball players are making more money than most people. But at the time, I really felt self-conscious about basketball playing being my job. Did you feel like it was because the stigma around basketball players were that they weren't something else, like maybe not educated or not? That is exactly it. That is exactly it. And I had relatives in my family who thought that basketball playing was a waste of time, too.

So they were like... Why did you point to me when you said that? Because you're the only relative in the room. That's why she got nervous. She probably was thinking the same thing. No, but I had relatives and who would be like, well, is that all you do? Oh. You know, and so I really, Dandy used to say that.

Our paternal grandfather would never talk to me and would never talk to me about sports. Oh, wow. Because he thought that the only thing he had to talk to us about was education and learning and as a young black man. And I saw him do this to my uncles. Like, you know, he didn't meet them where they were. He wanted them to rise up to what his expectation of them was. Yeah. And my parents didn't do that, but I felt that in society.

So that it wasn't until I got drafted, or literally drafted, that I said, all right, I'm a basketball player, right? Like, this was a real thing now. Validated by that. So I was wondering if you ever had that. in the music business. I feel like, yeah, it was just,

is a feeling of people projecting their own doubts onto you when you say something so grand. Because I do feel like some of your biggest dreams should sound a bit scary. And then you manifest those things regardless, which I think a lot of us have, you know, maybe even Lily would have,

you know, I'm going to be this amazing dance teacher and people may have been like, okay, yeah, like, that's kind of a creative job. Like maybe, you know, schooling is, you should pick a different major, you know, something. You know, so. Yeah. Yeah, they're picturing ahead how much money you could potentially make.

That's true. And it's like. And people, a lot of traditional families, regular families who aren't in the arts or doing something that's considered non-traditional. And the arts still is considered a non-traditional weight. way of life. People don't understand the profession. They don't know

that it is a profession. They don't know how you can. You know, you just laid out a whole sub-industry within the music business that, you know, like you said, you wanted to write, but there are other jobs in the music profession, producing,

and you'll name them because I don't know them. Working in the control room. Control, yeah. You know, nobody knows that, you know. People know doctor and lawyer, now you can be a day trader or, you know, I mean, some of the career titles are growing in people's minds. But the average mom and dad, the minute somebody says they want to go into theater or the arts or they want to be in music, you know, the light goes off in the eye of the parent, right?

And I wonder if Lily has experienced some of that. she's in a community or in a family of people where it's like a dancer, like, what's that? Right. I don't understand that. So I don't even know. I don't know, I don't know what that means. Yeah. And if she's experienced any of that, I imagine how hard it must be for her to summon up the

energy to continue something when it gets hard. Right. Right. It's like it's easy to quit on yourself when you naturally get burnt out. Yeah. You know, if it's not something that everybody around you is saying, I get it. I get you being a doctor. Yeah.

I understand the long hours. Boy, we're rooting for you, right? But you're in the hearts. You're dancing. You're acting. You're making music. I don't understand it. Yeah.

It just seems like, and naturally so, parents or people around would just want to hear something that has a guarantee. Yes. And with art, or even sports, it's like, well, you need a backup plan. It's always a plan B situation because you could get injured. It's like all the projections of the worst case scenario, but I would love for us to obsess over the best case scenario. Like, what if you are the best NBA player and what if you are the best dance teacher to ever live

and you're able to provide scholarships and change people's lives with what they want to do and make healthier bodies by what you're doing because you're encouraging exercise through something that's more fun than running on the treadmill potentially. It's dance and performance. So it's tough. tough because I think we're just all being protective of each other and creating those shields.

And sometimes those come in the form of limited beliefs and ideas of what you could do. Have you ever experienced burnout yourself? Because that's also something that I think people assume, oh, you're doing something you love. It's your passion. It's something you've always wanted your whole life. And it's this fun thing. Yes. And so if you burn out, That must mean it's all wrong. Yeah. So I just wondered, you were doing the thing you've always loved. Yes.

Have you experienced burnout? A hundred percent. And how did you handle? Have you handled it? You know, it takes some fight, just as with anything, you have to get through that storm to get to the rainbow every time. And remember why it is that you're doing it. And then again, remind yourself of the,

the gratitude that you should operate with because there are so many people that want to do what you do that can't. So that'll help you a bit in that morning where you're just so exhausted and you want to stop or sleep in or, you know, give up in the long term. But making sure that you realize that every day is an opportunity. And even when it's hard, if you just show up, even if you don't, your score for that day is a seat. You're not at your A game, but you showed up and you tried. That's how you get back on track when I'm experiencing a writer's block or I'm just not inspired. I just have to show up. And sometimes I'm not showing up as my best self.

But the fact that I showed up kind of, it's like training. It's that muscle strength and just exercising resilience and not depending on inspiration because inspiration fades. It's depending on muscle memory. And yes, and muscle memory. Professionalism. Yeah. So just showing up. And that's the same thing we have to do in anything.

And our friendship relationships, our personal relationships, everything that we do will come with some types of hardships, but that's just to juxtapose the times when it does feel good. I'd say to Lily, based on that, is like, first of all, burnout is okay. And I think you said this to Victoria. But I think young people who are pursuing non-traditional things, you know, they should be aware that even if you're doing something you love, there will come a point in time when you may be burned out. Yes. You know, the people at the top of their game, you know, I'm sure Michael Jordan, I'm sure Steph Curry, I'm sure you name it, I'm sure, you know, Beyonce.

Yeah. Everybody, even when they're at the top of their game, they get burned out. But that doesn't necessarily mean that this isn't the path for you. It just means that you may need to think about ways to nurture yourself. Yeah. Which you'll have to do in any career. That's right. In any profession, in any aspect of life.

Yes. Is to learn how to keep moving forward. So maybe Lily isn't, you know. You know, the burnout may not be a sign of anything other than, you know. Just need a little rest. She's right. She needs a moment of rest. And maybe she wants to take a moment of rest before she takes full steps away from the thing that she loves.

So there may be, you know, there may be a process to this. Right. She may want to try for, you know, a month or so, you know, finding a way to reduce her schedule if she can, if she can. Right. Working in nonprofit is somebody who worked in nonprofit, you usually don't have that kind of flexibility because you're working with tight budgets and your understaffed, you're working in tough communities. So, you know, that may be playing a role in her burnout is that she may be, you know, doing a dance class with 50 kids at a time. Yeah. Right. So she may have real legitimate reasons to be burned out. Yeah. She's working hard. Especially

if she's working in underserved communities. That's right. So instead of walking away, maybe she wants to find a minute to take some time off. Yeah. And then see what that feels like, You know, she might need to give herself a minute to miss it before she makes a full-blown statement about this isn't for me. Yeah. But she may go away for a week or a month and be happy with that and turn that in two months and three months. And as you said, it's okay if she looks up in six months or a year or even shorter and says,

I think I need to step away for a bit longer. Yeah. You know, that's just the process of figure. yourself out, whether in career or in life. When I was, came out of law school, I went into a big corporate firm because I went to Harvard and had a lot of debt. And that's what you did. You became a big corporate lawyer, right? I was in there for two years, pretty miserable, not because of the place, but because the work was kind of soul-crushing to me. But I realized I hadn't tried anything else. And I left and I started working in city government and public service. And each job,

while it paid less, was more interesting. You know, it had me in community. It had me working with people. So that year turned into two years. And then that job went from, you know, working for the deputy chief of staff to working in planning and development. And before you know it, I was away from law. I've never gone back. Right. Yeah. I mean, so sometimes it, but it's, help that I stepped away for a minute. And maybe Lily wants to try that. Yeah. That's good advice. That's really great. Yeah, that's a leap of faith and bravery sometimes that will take you on your supposed path. Yeah. Yeah. And that's not to say, Lily, that what you feel like is your passion isn't your passion, right? It's right. It's just be flexible enough. If you're burnt out,

to be flexible enough to try something else because you can always come back to your passion. And that's a great point. And it's, Mish and I have both done the same thing. My mom used to joke, you all went to all these fancy schools and you end up making less and less money each job you take.

Well, thank you. It's like, yeah, that's a good point, Mom. That's a good point. But she never, she was always very supportive. I love that. it sort of chuckling because it was very true. Yeah. Another pay cut, huh? Meish did it a little more than I did. I went from Wall Street trader to assistant basketball coach.

So everybody thought I was having a nervous breakdown. I was really, I was doing what Lily was doing. I figured out, ah, this is my passion. I want to try it. and off to the race as I went. So, this is, you all have some good, I have some good notes here. It took notes. I took notes. I took notes. Because Lily's, she had a lot of stuff going on here.

But the first thing that I took down, Victoria, was what you said about talking about what you do, not what the job is. Yeah, I like that. I like, that was really good. That's, you know, I mean, it's not that she's ashamed of it, but help people understand that what being a dance teacher is and does for young people, for old people, for the community. Yes. That's great advice, Lily. So I think you should really listen to that. And then, Meish, you went straight for the Explorer Y.

That's her thing. Yeah. We ought to get some T-shirts with Explorer Y on it. Because that's really good. Okay. All right, team. T-shirts. And let me get one of those please. And then just because folks don't understand your career doesn't mean that you're on the wrong track.

And this will get back to Marianne Robinsonism. Why are you worried about what everybody's thinking? But that's hard in this day and age. It was hard for us when, you know, 50 years ago, right? But it's really hard for you all because of the social media. And everybody's like rating everybody and liking everybody and talking about. Or unliken and commenting. It's just it's a barrage of grading.

Right. So you're trying to get good grades. Yeah. That's what I say about these young people. They're trying to get good grades all the time. That's true. And Lily, you don't have to get a good grade if you know what you want to do. And if you know you're working hard, that's the best.

part of it. The process is the best part. Enjoy that. So that's what I gleaned from from you two experts here. I love that. I just want to add too because I'm reminded of my own path and what my dance teachers did for me. She changed how I felt about arriving at school, how I felt about my body and how I should take care of my body. She introduced the class to yoga. And then I became a dance teacher. I didn't mention why I was a bank teller.

I was also teaching dance at two different studios. Oh, you left that part out. Yeah. Two different studios. Because we heard the bank teller part. Yeah, right. Yeah. So two different dance studios.

And I just saw one of my students, his name is Kita, dancing for Kendra Kumar. Wow. He was six years old when I was teaching. teaching him and now he's on stage with Kendrick in a stadium. Oh, he did the Super Bowl? He just, he's on, he's on tour with him. Oh, wow.

Him and Siza. So to see, sometimes it's re-inspiring to see the difference you can make in people's lives. And just knowing, knowing even in the unknown that you are able to help and change someone's whole trajectory by what you're doing. So that's why just really using the purpose as the answer. versus the actual job title. Yeah. Yeah. Probably be a helpful reminder.

Yeah. Yeah, we just, a Lily, stay encouraged. Yes. You know, and you're just in your 20s. And, you know, you have time to be so many different things.

I just want Lily and all young people out there to know it just feels like as we get questions from young people, there's so much pressure to feel like they're supposed to have all the answers at a time. when I'm 60 and I'm still like, I don't know nothing. So all I, you know, I want our young listeners and the parents and friends of young people

who are struggling with their why and feeling like they're off course when they've just started. Yeah. It's like, be easier on yourself and understand that there are many opportunities to recreate yourself and to keep growing, you're going to have to. Right. You know, that's the fun part of life is that there are many chapters to come. And there's no right answer. So I want Lily to stay encouraged, but to take care of herself. So she's feeling burnt out. Find a way to get a break so that she can think clearly. Because what it is hard to do is make determinations, you know, sensible determinations about what you want for your life when you're not at your best mental state. That's right. So and that's true. no matter what you do. You got to take care of your mental health.

You've got to take care of your physical health so that you have some clarity to figure out the next moves. Yeah. So, really. Thanks, Lily from Virginia. Yeah, thank you, Lily. Good luck. Yes.

And Victoria, thank you. Yes. Thanks, you guys so much. You are a little wise one. You know, at this table, you're a baby. I'm sorry, even though you're grown and mature in the industry. the baby. Hold on to it.

Hold on. But you are a wise baby. Thank you so much. I mean, it has really been a pleasure just to hear what's going on inside that head of yours. Hazel is very lucky. Yes, she is. I really appreciate it. And to have your tribe too.

Yes, because it sounds like it's a healthy group. Yeah, I agree. It's curated. And God did his thing. So I appreciate it. But we're going to keep an eye on you. You got any new music coming out? Anything we should know?

Any T2 drop? Do T2 drop? I'm actually working on the next project right now. After the book tour, I am actually locking away in the studio. And the rest of the year is just music, music, music. So I'm excited about that. Well, we consider you a part of the IMO family. You and Hazel.

Tell Hagell, I say, hey. I sure will. And her Chanel. And her Shine. What did you call her? Benel. Banel. Her banal.

I wish you all the best. We're going to keep an eye on you. Thank you. Anytime you want to come on and, you know, throw down some more wisdom. We would love to have you. Thank you so much for having me. It was an honor to speak with you both. And keep representing.

Keep showing up as a fabulous young woman, young mother, young professional.