IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Follow The Fun with Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers

Episode Date: July 30, 2025

Longtime friends, podcasters and performers Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers join the show! They discuss the Las Culturistas Culture Awards, how they’ve navigated their friendship through the ups and downs of their careers, and the fights that have made them grow closer to each other. Plus, Michelle shares the surprising new Bravo show she’s been watching.Have a question you want answered? Write to us at ⁠imopod.com⁠.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

And I think we're always stronger as a result of we've had some pretty large fights. And like, I do think. Fun, like, I've never shouted louder in a way that I'm terrible. I can't believe my voice can do that. Can I say? Yeah. There's no one better that I would shout at than you. No, because I can go toe to toe to toe.

Like, it's bad. It's like a feral. We have one blow at every, like, two years. That's high. I know. And I don't look forward to them. No, me neither. It's like, I hate it.

In fact, it usually is within the same conversation that we're then crying. I'm like, why do this? This episode is brought to you by Indeed and Progressive Insurance. Hello. Craig Robinson. What's going on? Michelle Obama, not too much. Yeah, yeah.

It's great to see you. It's good to see you, too. You're looking good, your sharp shirt. You like this shirt? Yeah, I know. I've gotten some compliments on this shirt. I'm very happy. Kelly will be very happy with us.

She's just. doing you, doing right by you. Thank God for Kelly. Yes. Thank, thank God for her. Thank God for her. I'd be in sweats if it was for her. So you're enjoying your time in D.C.? I am. You know, the weather has been wonderful. That's the thing. And it's been walkable. And, you know, I, have you been walking? I left my Airbnb, the last couple of days and walked around. I'm in a nice residential neighborhood that's very close to a bunch of restaurants and coffee shops and have you gone out to get coffee? Did you go to the library? What are you doing when you're walking around? You just walking around? Just walking around. Just getting my steps in. You make any friends? You know, my sister is being funny because

I tend, people tend to talk to me when I walk around and they look at me and they look and they say, boy, you look familiar. And I was like, oh, no, I get that all the time. Did you get that on? your walk today. I got that on my walk. Well, I'm in Washington, D.C. That's what I'm wondering. I'm just wondering. I'm just wondering what it's like for you walking around your little Airbnb community. It's been a really neat neighborhood. Did you make breakfast today for yourself? I did. I made yogurt and I have a bunch of fruit. You know you don't make yogurt. You open yogurt. Well, I open yogurt and I put the fruit in the yogurt. Okay. From your stockpile. From my stockpile of fruit. See, and you're

And this is something you couldn't do if you were staying at a hotel. You'd have to just go downstairs and buy it in the cup. And it'd be crunchy. You couldn't make it on your own as you have done. And I'm enjoying making my own breakfast. You know what I should have gotten was a little bit of granola to put in there to make it a little crunchy because I didn't order that. I didn't order that on your Airbnb list. I didn't put that on my list.

Well, anyway, it's good to have you in our fair city. It is good to be here. We got a good show. I am so excited. Listen, I'm so excited. I have goosebumps, and it's not because it's cold in here. And so you'll love this. So I'm coming in this morning, and Kelly text me, Austin, who's our 15-year-old, says, please tell Bowen Yang that Aaron and I are fans of his.

Now, they're 15 and 13, and so they're just at the age where they can watch Saturday. You're not live. Okay. All right. Because they're strict parents. We are strict parents. We are strict parents. We are strict parents. There's bedtimes even on Saturday.

Malia had to convince them to start watching our rated movies because. If it wasn't for Malia, we still be watching PG-13. You know, Toy Story 2. Yes. You know. Malia was just like, you can't go out like that dude. You're in high school. You got to get a little chucky or something, you know, Friday the 13th.

So we have with us today. Oh, and Matt Rogers. Yes. And, you know. Podcast pros. We're going to bow down. I mean, we are neophytes to. We don't know what we're doing compared to these dudes.

We're going to learn. We're going to get schooled in how it's done. I'm so excited. I'm fans of both of them. They are hilarious. They are at the heart of culture, which you know nothing about. I don't know. They're going to have to help me out.

We're going to help. We're going to help. We're going to help my brother out. Bowen and Matt, come on out so we can school my brother on. Oh, good. I'm going to teach my about serial. A cereal hack. It's the, you have one for me.

Oh, great. It's so good to see you guys. Thank you. To say it's an honor to be here is the understanding of the century. Oh, my gosh. We are honored. Yeah. Well, you're not.

You're not neophytes, that's for sure. Oh, we are. I mean, it hasn't even been a year. You're good at this. No, but it's already so established. And this is the only thing you need to say to sound like you're a podcasting pro-ready. Okay. And you're going to agree with me on this.

Just if you talk to like someone like on like the sound crew, you just go, do you want me down the axis? Like, do you want me down the axis? Down the axis. By the way, you're all crushing. You're all crushing. We're down the axis. So what is that? This is the axis of the microphone.

And then you just. want to direct the sound downward. Oh, wow. This is also a Bowen's scientific background coming in. Why did you all tell us about down the accent? Nobody mentioned the axis to us. It's like, we're just talking. Might be something that I made up.

Wait, so that's Bowen's advice. That's very Bowen. And here's my advice to you. Here's a cereal hack for your breakfast preparation. Raisin brand, but you cut up strawberries and put it in the raisin brand. Wow, like commercial. Oh, that's deep. Honey Nut Cheerios, Strawberries, bananas, raisins.

You're going to love the way you look. I guarantee it. It's just like, ooh, that's dead. Wouldn't have thought of that. I'm already a raisin-brand guy. I was waiting for something deep. Yep. That's deep.

Is that deep, really putting extra fruit in a food-based cereal? I mean, but here's the thing. More fruit. More fruit. But if he thinks there's a way to make yogurt, I know, I see him. I was like, no, he's me. He thinks like, I made breakfast. I made some yogurt.

It's like, oh, did you really? I thought you were going to say, The only sentence you really need to know as a podcaster is, listen, wherever you get your podcast. That's a good way they all wrap up. Wherever you get your podcast. Yes. We do. We do that.

Sometimes I forget to do that when I'm on other people's shows. But I'm going to get that down. So tell our listeners about Las Culturistas. How do you say it? We say it Las Culturistas. And we sometimes will put some verbatimates. Put some verve into it. You know, it really was just like fashionistas or maximistas.

So that's really where it came from. Cultureistas. Okay. Why didn't I pick that out? No, no. You know? Well, this is in 2016 when we started it. And I think that the one thing we were positive is that no one would listen to it.

When we started in 90, I mean, am I wrong? No, you're not wrong at all. Bowen said, you know, should we do a podcast? I was like, yeah, that's fun idea. We just started talking to each other. I remember we looked at the initial mediation. Like in the, you know, first couple months we had been doing the podcast and we were blown away because 60 people were listening. We were like, whoa, we're on to something.

And that was fine for us. And then, you know, nine and a half, I guess soon we're going to be saying 10 years later. That's wild. Yeah. Yeah. Become the reason for everything else. Yeah. Yeah. But it's different talking to 60 people, right?

I mean, because when it's just 60 people. 60 people, then you're really, you know, you're really letting go. If you really sat and thought about how many people are actually listening when you're doing a podcast, you might totally change the way you do it, which is the death of authenticity. You know what I mean? Did I get into that? I just thought of that.

But here's something that I do to avoid that. I don't listen to our podcast. Yeah. Right? I count on we have a team of people. He listens to it. And I don't, I have never, I don't listen to my interviews. I don't listen to watch my speeches.

I don't read my articles because I will start self-filtering. I'll think more about, am I slouching? Did I say that? I said, um, too much. I don't, and I don't want to self-edit in that way. And if I hear myself, I'll be, I don't even like my own voice. Really? Yeah, yeah.

So, that's been. I don't like it either. It's a funny thing with your own voice. Yeah, right? I've had a journey with it. Now I guess I can understand what it can do. But you know what's funny? It was because of podcasting and even just being on a mic

that I learned how to do voiceover acting. I released an album and it taught me how to become a better singer. All because of weirdly podcasting. Really? Just actually learning how to talk on a mic. Really. It was a weird thing, but it was an education. When you guys started, this wasn't a thing thing.

No. So how did you know, let's do a pot? Yeah, really? Hey, let's do a podcast. It was kind of just like offered to us in this very wonderful, scrappy way. This podcast network that's still thriving called Forever Dog. We started with, and we're with for several years. But it was just like, hey, like, we're just reaching out to a bunch of comedians in New York.

because we're a bunch of comedians in New York starting this podcast network. Do you want to do something? And we're like, sure. We had all these different concepts and pitches for it. And then Matt was very smart in thinking, let's just do the lowest lift. And the lowest lift was the two of us being ourselves talking. Like I had ideas of like fictional, like scripted things.

And we were like, choose your own adventure. It was like so convoluted. And then Matt was like, no, we're going to keep it very low-fi. And that is kind of, anytime anyone asks, it's like, how do you keep it going for so long? And I'm just like, it's because we picked the lowest effort possible idea. But I think because we put ourselves into it and we put identity into it and there was an authenticity to what we were doing, maybe that's why people, it's a notable podcast segment when really it's being gone a lot. Well, and let's, you know, this is where I want to educate my brother and even my husband who will be listening.

Culture is king. I mean, the truth is, is like, they razzed me about my love of reality TV and the Real House Watch. Let's go. I watch it all. You watch it all? All of it, you know. Love. I mean, you know, the gin, the New York gin babies.

Yes. Oh, yeah. And, Y, C. Yes, yes, yes. I watched the first two episodes. I'm just like, oh, they're starting the babies off early. Oh, my God. Are they actual babies?

They're children of housewives and like of Bravo, Bravo Leberties, we call them. They're really like the princes and princesses of Bravo. Now seeing if they're worth their salt when the camera's faced on them. And they've been on the screen, it's like Austin and Aaron at seven. You know, they were babies being shot and now they're in New York. I think there's legislation that's being about that. No, it is really tricky to watch. Uh-huh, it is.

Yeah. It is. But it's juice. It's tea. But culture is king. And even though you're razzed for your reality tastes, like it's still, we like to think of it as like, people are like, oh, you guys balance high-low so well. But it's all horizontal to us.

It's all the same plane. It's all a sociological study. I was a social major and so were you. I was. Now, they think that sports is better reality TV. I was like, it's the same thing. Pretty much. This is what I've heard, though.

about sports. And I would love to know more about athletics in general. You know, my dad was a varsity football and baseball coach for 40 years and a phys ed teacher. So growing up, like, I was an athlete, kind of by necessity, in my own head at the time, because I, of course, you know, who doesn't want to impress their dad and stuff. But I credit a lot of the reason why I have a work ethic, why I know what it is to hit deadlines, why I know what it is to know how to rehearse even as a person. performer, all to sports. So it's that, in terms of sports culture, like, I was, I was like a late 90s met super, like super freak super fan. Yeah.

But those things, like, that is, I mean. But there's drama in sports. There's so much drama. Yeah, that's right. You know, if I listen to ESPN for an hour, it's like watching the Real Housewives of Atlanta. Absolutely. I mean, you know, it's the same drama and they're yelling at each other and they don't get along.

You know, I mean, Stephen A. He's just like every other talk show post. He'd be a great real housewife. He would be. Right. He would be amazing. So that's why I'm like, what's the difference? It's just, you know, it's just sociological drama.

I mean, the fact that people over seasons of working together still can't get along. They still have the same arguments, you know. And it's not just women, but this happens in sports too. I find it fascinating. It is. It's just like, why? you keep going to dinner together? Yeah.

It never ends well. And don't ever vacation with her. Ever again. You know she's going to, it's going to be an unfair reason why she deserves the best room. And why can't we figure out this room thing? Why I don't figure out. This is something that you just figure out in your 20s and your 30s as you start traveling with your friends.

But the thing that sports has that, I think reality TV doesn't, is like, numbers. Like, what I find fascinating about sports and my unfamiliarity with it is that it is really, really, something and it's really cool that you get to look at stats and you get to compare that way. That's right. Storytelling. You know? And I wish Housewives had that.

What some stats? Some numbers. The number of fights. They'll on Instagram, they'll release the seating chart for the reunions. So at the end of every Housewife season, there's a reunion. Oh, yeah. Basically, it is kind of a little bit of a cast system because if you're

sitting next to Andy, that kind of means you want. Andy Cohen, by the way. Andy Cohen. It's usually the host of reunions. It kind of is interesting because it's like a ranking. You see people talking about it like, oh, she's in the one spot. She's in the two spot. Like, look at her all the way in no man's land at the end of the couch.

Good point. So it does kind of have that. There is something in our fandom that is wanting to quantify the way someone is doing. Well, tell us about the culture awards. Yes. You guys are growing up big time. Congratulations, by the way. Like all on Bravo.

Okay. Yeah. Oh, great segue. We have been doing this fake award show as is the best way to describe it for several years now, live in New York. And we did Lincoln Center and then went to King's Theater in Brooklyn, which was beautiful last year. And yeah, we're on Bravo and we're on Peacock the next day on August 5th. And it started out as, again, like this low-stakes bit on the podcast.

We're like, we should throw our own award show where the categories are. the Eva Long-Gory Award for Tiny Woman Biggest Impact. Like these dumb categories. Most amazing impact in film, and the nominees are like, I don't know, one of them is Jeff Goldblum's chest in Jurassic Park. So basically it's just, but then we also have like record of the year.

And sometimes it's a little earnest. So it is a really good example, I think, of what has made our podcast successful, is that we just follow the fun. Yeah. And I really think that people could give themselves a gift by just saying that sentence a little bit more, just even in the day-to-day things,

just like, what feels good, what feels fun. We need it now more than ever. And I think that with the cultural words, it's like what's fun about it is, you know, this probably won't happen, but Merrill Streep could walk out. And so could Meredith Marks from Salt Lake City Housewives? You'll look back up later.

She's a good one to know. I'll explain it over lunch. And there's a Salt Lake City. She's from Salt Lake City. I mean, housewatt. That's the number one spot. Yeah. That's the one spot.

Yeah. Well, because you're dealing with Mormonism and a whole lot of subculture. Yeah, one of them went to jail. There have been several, uh, several imprisonments. There was one arrest while they were filming. Yes. It's the one we're talking about. And now she's in the same thing as Elizabeth Holmes.

No. Yes, and they're best of us. I miss that. I know who Elizabeth Holmes They're not How. And they're buds. They're going to come out.

It could be dangerous. And they're going to take over the world. They're going to be shaking. They're going to be shaking. Because here's the truth of it. I'd watch that show. I would. I would watch that show.

And you would too, great. See, he just doesn't know what it is. I don't. I really don't. I really don't. I have very little bandwidth for anything outside of what I'm doing with my kids.

Right. And so I pick my, I pick my TV very carefully. He also has a very limited cringe meter. I see. I do. I do. She's right about that.

And you've got to be able to hang in the cringe. 100%. Because most of the time you're watching and you're like, I can't believe it. To give you an example, everybody in our generation love this show Seinfeld. Of course. You just thought that was George.

George. George. Oh. Oh. And I love the guy who wrote the show. Larry David. I love Larry David. I love Larry David.

Curb your enthusiasm. But then watching the show is just like I can't stand the attention. So you probably get into the office. The office is tough. No, the office is funny to me. But that's so cring. There's cringe. There's a lot of cringe.

See, he doesn't make me cringe like George made me cringe. Well, that's good writing. That's his good character. That's the whole point of the character. Yeah, but she's right about the cringe thing. If it's too cringy, you know, I'm a, I'm a Turner classic movie guy. Yeah, I got to have a. I got to have a good ending.

It's got to work out. It's getting catharsis. Yes. Positively. I can't walk away being more anxious than I was going in. There's a Turner Classic movies cruise I heard. Yeah, but I hate cruise. You heard about the cruise.

I'm with you there. I'm with you there. I've heard about it. It sounds like it would be wonderful and they have some of the stars and stuff on there. I would love it. They're going to get it off the boat. Is there a Bravo cruise? I think there might be a Bravo cruise.

Well, there should be. You know, there's Bravo Khan. That I know. Yes. It is wild. It must be madness. The people, I mean, it's like the Beatles show up when anyone walks in the room. Well, the franchises are huge.

There are like, how many? I mean, now they're like. Gosh, well, now there's new ones that you're about Rhode Island. Yes. Rhode Island is starting. There's a housewives of Rhode Island. There's going to be. I heard it's good.

We used to live there, so I might, maybe that's the one. That's a good point. Yeah. Honestly, we have a friend who does know a couple people on the because I guess it's that small. He was like, I went to high school with that girl. I was like, that's so funny. You would have to.

It's Rhode Island. That's Rhode Island. Yeah. This segment is brought to you by Indeed. Hey, Mish, how is being organized through your career helped you get your work done? Oh my gosh. Organization for me has been everything. I think better when I have a clean desk, when I have a clear plate, you know, when things

are in order. Clutter doesn't help free my mind. And when did you learn that? When did you realize that that was necessary? Probably if you think about it, I was kind of always like that. I do. That's why I asked, because

I remember when we had our desks set up in our room, mine was always a mess with books and papers and I just set things down. And no matter what time a day it was, your desk was always organized. Your pencils were in the box. Eracers were in something over here. Papers were, you had your loose leaf paper over here,

you had your spiral notebooks over there. And I just remember you always being organized. Yeah. And I think it perhaps was just a personal trait of mine, or it came out of the realization that this organization slows you down. If you have to spend 30 minutes looking for the pad of paper before I can sit down and be creative, that messes. with my process, you know? Yeah. What about you? Because you eventually learned how to become organized, even though.

I am still becoming organized because I really didn't need to be organized until I got to college. And when you have, and it was the result of having so much free time because you have way more free time in college than you did in high school. Which a lot of college students don't understand. They don't take advantage of. And that's when you need to be organized. And it was at that point after I had failed the first semester at being a decent student in college that I had to get organized. And once I realized that and then started to execute that, my whole academic and intellectual experience just changed. And it made everything easier.

And I just wish I was able to do it as early as you did. What I try to tell young people is that organizational skills. or a muscle. Build that muscle early, practice it, and when you're our age, it becomes second nature. It sure does. It sure does. But whether being organized is a skill you have or not, Indeed can help connect the skills you have to new opportunities. Indeed's mission is to empower everyone to leverage their skills for better work. When people feel confident in their skills and open to change, the world truly can work better. I want just to flip the script a little bit,

because I am given who you two are, I am curious to know what were little Bowen and Matt like. What were you guys like as kids? Because I don't know whether do we have a nerdy kid and a jockey kid. I don't know. I think that's a pretty decent sort of assessment, refraction of us. Like, I just remember starting out pretty precocious and then I think being a boy, like you

start to like rain in in a bit and you just try to like start to fit in. So I was, I was, I was always a nerd and I feel like I tried to hide it and mask it for a couple years in middle school and then I just kind of let it all out in high school. What about you? It's like, I can't hold it in any longer. He did some theater in high school. And I remember when I was in high school, I was all sports all the time. was a very serious track athlete.

I played baseball for several years. I never really got into football. And it's actually interesting. My dad was such a football guy. And years later, I asked him, why didn't you ever throw the football around with me? And he was like, I mean, if I'm honest with you, I didn't think kids really needed to be playing.

Yeah. And then years later, now we hear so much about what goes. Our dad was the same way with him. We were both sporty kids. There just wasn't much for me with the beginning of Title IX. But she did everything I did. In our backyard. But there wasn't organized sports.

That's so interesting. I remember one of my formative memories was my dad and I, we didn't have a boys winner track team for whatever reason. And I was so serious about it that we actually got one going. And I just found out it's still going. And I think they even won like league championship. So that was one thing I can look back on and be like that was like a positive impact. But in high school, all I wanted was to audition for the swing.

choir and be in the place. I remember they have no idea what I would give as Conrad Birdie. But I was too closeted. Yeah. Yeah. And so I remember being a happy kid. And I had amazing parents. And I grew up on Long Island and I had a very happy day to day in that I was given so much. But there was a pit, I believe, in probably both of our stomachs because being closeted at that time was extremely hard.

I remember like, this is when, you know, the F.A.G slur was being used. like on the radio. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so it kind of... And talk about comedy. I mean, it was at the... You know, that was just common...

Homophobia was right. That was comedy at that time. Yeah. And so it's kind of like, I think we both know a little bit of what it's like to feel like who I am is something that... It's a question of whether I'm going to be embraced for it. Yeah, absolutely. And so anything that could reveal something about who you really are was...

It felt dangerous. Yeah, yeah. But I think about constantly, like, would we have been friends when we were a little? I was just thinking about that. And I think we would have. So now you're getting into my area of inquiry because I heard that you guys were friends in college. But you weren't friends first. I mean, help us understand how you guys got to be close.

Well, college is interesting. I feel like you guys keep up with your college friends, right? Yeah, a couple of them. Yeah. But, you know. Yeah, but I started out liking them. So, you know what? It wasn't dislike.

I think what it was was it was a situation where I remember the first time I ever saw Bowen. I have this thing where it's bizarre. But the people that end up being meaningful in my life, I remember the first time I saw them. It's weird. And him, I remember coming around an elevator bank and we were going to see a comedy show. I remember the elevator. And I saw him and he looked back at me. And I just remember it was this moment of like, that's a person to me.

Yeah. And I think maybe because of the. self-consciousness at that time. We were 18 years old in college and still both closeted. It's a little nerve-wracking any social interaction at that time. And so we went to go see a comedy show at our school, which was our school's comedy show, our sketch comedy show. And I remember looking up on stage and being like, I think I'll try to do that. And it will make me take a, it will encourage me to take a step towards who I am. And he had already been in the improv group at the school. So there was Dangerbox Improv and Bowen.

was the one gay in that group. And then I got into that sketchroom. So I was out in high school and then I was back in the closet right before college through all this like mess. And then so then yeah, at the time of meeting Matt, I think we were both synced up in our timeline. We were both newly comfortable saying we were gay. And then we were in these comedy groups in which we were the only person that identified that way. And so their way of sort of, I think maybe breaking ice was like, well, be. best friends, you know, do we.

Like, perform for us. We would often be put in situations where it almost felt like tokenized because we were like, like, sort of like, oh, like, these are our gay ones. And not with any malintent on their part. But it just didn't feel like that would be the reason why we'd definitely be best friends until there was this like, there was this like rationale on a collective level from everyone around us. There was like, you guys would get along great.

It's like when your parents like set you up with someone. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're like, just because you think. But then quickly it was like they were right. We both were off book on all the same pop music. Like it was, I remember we'd have like parties after the sketch comedy and improv shows. And we would just tear it up to like super bass by Nikki Minaj.

We would tear it up to like any Taylor Swift song still to this day. I mean, we just, we speak a very similar language. I feel like the bit that I always say is like, I feel like he's my twin that was born in a different part of the world on a different day. And Bowen, you grew up in Brisbane. It was born in Brisbane, six months. Okay. Basically when I was clear to fly, we moved to Ontario. Okay.

In Montreal, then Colorado, and then Colorado to New York. And I've been in New York since. So high school was where? It was Colorado. Was Colorado. Yeah. Aurora. Yeah. Yeah.

But that was a very interesting. place to grow up where, like, it felt like you were just informed by, like, a very, I don't know, like, again, I keep saying this word, horizontal way of, like, being with people was, like, great public schools in Colorado where I'm from at least. And I just felt like I was given, like, the latitude to, like, figure stuff out about myself that then would, like, make way for, like, finding out who I really was. And then by the time I got to college. It was like the groundwork had been laid. What were your parents like, each of you? Mine are really hardworking immigrants who sacrificed everything. And I remember coming to

the States for the first time in 1999. And we met with our immigration lawyer. And we went through the process of getting our green cards. And it was just back then it felt like so much bureaucracy. Yeah. And they were always people who reminded you in the gentlest, way they sacrificed a lot. But they were never like, this is us putting pressure on you. Like they, I think, again, laid it all out for us just in the way that we grew up in Colorado. It was like, here's like an open horizon of what you can do in life. And because they would vocalize things like, well, we know you like to perform, but, you know, it's really hard and there's not a lot of stability, and especially if you're Asian and all these things. And I internalize that as a way of

saying, oh, that's off limits. Let me go and be pre-mad in college, and that's what I did. And so I think there were tacit ways in which they were like trying to encourage me to find myself, but hedging a little bit because they were just trying to be protective. Well, and also, you know, you love your kids. You want to make sure they can eat. Exactly. You know?

Exactly. And the world is mean and ugly out there. So just in case, just have something in your back pocket. Totally. But it's, you know, it's fortunate to have parents. was the same way for you, Matt, that you had parents that were kind of encouraging whatever you wanted to do, or did you feel like there was an expectation? I think once I became more of an adult and I got to college, I'll never forget. I, so I started NYU and I actually was, I was

full jock at that time. I was on the track team and I got through a week of it. And I remember realizing I was not, because I had done an amazing, I can, I'm a code switching icon. Like I was, right, right, I was prom king in high school, which was a fight because, like, I am, you know, pretty gay. And so, like, I was, like, you got to watch the show overcompensating. Yeah, yeah. He really taps into just how much drag you do to try to. And that was me. Yeah.

And so I remember I, the phone, I remember I was in my dorm room and the phone was shaking in my hand because I was going to call my dad and say I was quitting the track team. And but don't worry because I'm going to do something else. You know, I'm going to try to... I'm going to go punch a wall. Yeah, yeah, right. I'm going to eat fire. And my parents are lovely. My dad is like the life of the party.

My mom is truly the most joyful, effervescent person. She is a star. And they've never... On that phone call, we're like, we're disappointed. My dad was like, you have to do what's going to make you happy. Like, you're 18 years old. You know what I mean? Like, you're living in New York City.

And so from that point, on, and really never, did they ever say, well, did you ever think what to do if it didn't work out? Even throughout my 20s when I was waiting tables, six days a week, you know, they never were like, hey, maybe the sketch comedy thing, it should be called into question, you're 27-year-old man. You know what I mean? Maybe they should have. Yeah.

But they never did. And that's not to say that I didn't have, like, you know, the strife that comes with any, like, parental child relationship, especially when there's a lot of inner strife and everyone's figuring out how to relate to each other. But in terms of the way that they raised me, I'm the luckiest. It is amazing how kids put a lot on themselves because they think they know what their parents are thinking. Both Craig and I were kind of like that because we came from working class background and we made a lot of choices assuming that our parents couldn't afford. something. I would say no to something. I remember. Or we didn't want to disappoint them. Of course. Because they're such wonderful people, of course. And I don't, you know, I cut you off, but I wanted to get back to your parents. When they, when you came out to them, what was their reaction? And how did they sort of help you through that or not help you through it? Because they sound like wonderful people. We're sitting here and it's like a lot of this conversation is reminding me how

different we are. Yeah. Like, I feel like we have such a energetic connection and like piece in the pod, but we have such different backgrounds.

That's great. I love that. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, sorry. You should go. So I came out, well, I didn't even come out in high school, but in high school,

you know, there were revelations. And so then my parents sat me down. They were like, you know, where we come from in mainland China. like this doesn't happen.

And so this is a problem to us and we are sort of oriented as problem solvers, so we're going to figure out how to solve this. And then, you know, they found some therapists, basically. And so that we would drive down. There was this ultimatum that I could go to school at NYU where my sister was and that she would sort of watch over me or I could stay and stay with them.

And I was like, I'd rather go to NYU. And then little did they know, it's gayest school. in the country. But the ultimate one was, like, I would, like, you know, I would go with my dad to these conversion therapy sessions over the summer before I started college. And you know what?

Like, you're on this fault line in your life and you go, good a time as any. Maybe they know something I don't. Truly. You trust your parents. Yeah. You know that they're not trying to hurt you. They're trying to figure it out.

Of course. And I'm this. I'm this like 17-year-old kid who had never seen his dad cry before, but he was coming home every day from school to his parents sobbing over dinner every night. And I was like, I have to do something. I have to like acquiesce in this way in order to like keep the family together. Yeah, yeah. To not disappoint.

To not disappoint. Yeah. To like not protect them from their own emotions. Truly. And by the way, like, we can just fast forward to now. where, like, you know, there was just this moment back in the closet, and then it was meeting people like Matt that sort of brought me out of it. And then it was a lot of tumult in terms of, like, trying to come on, like, common ground with them.

Yeah. And it took many years. But, like, now it's, I mean, it gives me a lot of hope, and it gives me this model for how to, like, really let things ferment over time. And not all hope is lost with these things. Like, I never expected to be in this place with them now. They're asking my personal life. They're truly genuinely curious.

They're proud. Like, last year at the culture awards, we, like... They came. We were dressed in, like, sequined chaps. And, like, in a cowboy house. Two most wanted, like, Niance and Miley. But, like... Couldn't have been here.

Couldn't begin. Yes. And then I'd turn around and, like, full cheek showing. And then apparently, my mom was, like, cheering, clapping in the audience. And I'm like, I couldn't... I still don't even totally believe that image because I'm like, that would have never, that does not square with the sort of internalized sort of thing that I have with them from childhood from being a teenager. And now it's just like, look at all this. Well, this is what you want to tell young kids, you know, when they feel hopeless over any issue, right?

Life is long and the trajectory is unpredictable. Yeah. You know, and sometimes you just want to, you know, allow. allow it to breathe a little bit before you decide that life isn't worth living or that nothing will change because people, you know, people, if you give folks grace, you know, sometimes it comes back in return. I think there was a mutual exchange of that grace between me and parents. That's beautiful.

That really is. Thank you. And you're going to visit extended family. You're taking a special trip. Yes, I'm taking a special trip. To the consulate first. To the consulate first. Yeah.

But yeah. We want to make sure you get back. I want to make sure I get back. Well, yeah. I'm excited. I haven't been back in like nine years. So this isn't your first trip. We would go all the time growing up.

And then once college started, it was a little less frequent because everyone had busier lives as we were growing older. And it's important that I go back. And it's funny. a lot of my extended family. It's just my parents and my sister and I in the States. Everyone else is back in China. Okay. And I'll have aunts and uncles and cousins be like,

oh my gosh, we saw this thing that Bowen did and it made its way here, which is great, which is amazing. Then it makes me go, well, I never came out to them. And clearly, like, I've done enough things. My hit right in terms of, like, stuff that I put out is, like, clearly telegraphs that, like, I am who I am. And so I'm working with this tutor now to, like, just to refresh my Mandarin, but also to give me the literal vocabulary, to have conversations with them where I'm like, so this is who I am. This is what my life is like, this is my job.

The actual vocabulary. The actual vocabulary. Yeah, wow. Yeah, I'm, I'm a gay man. S&L is a live show on Saturdays. Yes. These are the things about me that I have to like learn in terms of the vocabulary to communicate these things. Have your parents had those conversations with their relatives back home or they? I think they're, I think they want to leave it up to me. Uh-huh. Which I totally, which I appreciate actually. Yeah. When's the trip going to happen? It's going to be about a month and a half. All right. Where I am going to send so much, we're going to send so much energy your way. It's going to be great.

I receive it. And if it's not just come on back. Exactly. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Financial Security isn't just about the here and now. It's about the future. That's why we love what Progressive is doing to help people attain, maintain, and build wealth through homeownership. For over 80 years, Progressive has led with the belief that insurance

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False positives and false negatives can occur. Colagard is available by prescription only. So my sister is always talking about I need a sort of culture boost. Yeah. I'm not cool, right? I have kids. You were so cool, by the way. I have kids, but I'm not cool.

And just so I would like to know, since you started your podcast, what are some of the changes in culture you've seen both positive and negative? Wow. Great question. I think there's this debate that keeps going on, and I don't even know what the answer is, or what the right side is, but like, is there still a monoculture or is it completely, like, fragmented? Is no one watching the same thing? What does that do to us? I think people still are watching the same things. There's just a bajillion options, and that's what makes it feel so disjointed. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a few stories like that you can really look at since we started the podcast in March of 2016, just to note that.

And so in those years since, it's like you've really seen some wild narratives. And it's kind of like I always boil it down to like they're streaming. The way that movies and TV have sort of collapsed has been really interesting. But, you know, so when people are like, why they split it up into two movies? It's like, because they can. And they should because it's going to save the film industry. Exactly. Like, you know what I mean?

If you have something like that that's a unicorn, you got to chop up that unicorn. Brush that unicorn. Right, right. Really? It grew. But I just wish that the effort was some of the, some more of the trying was a bit more experimental. Yeah. You know, I mean, I just feel like the industry is a little bit too precious with IP.

100%. And it's like, I think one thing that will get people out is just new concepts. Yeah. Sinners just popping off. Exactly. You do get those moments where it's where we're proven right, that we want to see original stuff. That's, and, but the industry, the suits have to kind of believe it. It's like, guess what?

Like, you don't have to spend $150 million. People just want to see some good new content, a different way of seeing the world, a different way of approaching film. And I sat next to. a film executive at a dinner and had a full-blown argument about this. Same thing. You know, it's like, you know, there is room. People will go see a wonderful $30 million film. We've seen it. Anora, you know, this Oscars, we saw it all. But for some reason, there's, they're risk-averse to try this new thing. And it's like, don't be so risk-averse because this is a cheaper way.

Totally. It's like you have less to lose instead of putting... all your eggs in this $100, $200 million films. You know, it seems riskier. And also, you know, I was watching, have you watched the studio? Yeah. So this is great. It's a great show. It's Seth Rogen.

And we have Seth on, Seth with his wife. You've got to watch the studio. So this is a great show. And I remember, like, one of the things that they were talking about is the fact that, like, a cut of a movie was coming in at two hours, 45 minutes or something. And it was cutting down the show times. And I'm like, okay, so isn't this a no-brainer? Yeah.

If you make shorter movies, which everyone is craving, and you want the money, add the show times. You know? Just make the movies a little shorter. That's right. So that's one thing I can. Because it feels like all the superhero movies are also two hours and 45 minutes. Right. And I'm like, what is the logic here?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the appeal? Well, we've got two best friends on this show. And we've got a question about friendship and finding people. And before we get into it, one of the things I did, want to ask because I find this in our friend groups. Do you guys have the same friend group? Do you have separate friend groups? And have, do, if so, do your groups merge? I think the Venn diagram is a circle for our friend groups. And it makes me all the words. I know. When he makes a new friend

and then I, because it's kind of like when any good friend of yours is a good friend of mine. Yeah. And then likewise, like, I recently like, I have two like very close friends. One of them is actually my ex-boyfriend who's now my best friend. And Bowen takes him as his date to things now. It makes me so happy. Shout out to Jared. Hey, Jared. But yeah, that's like a really nice, happy thing.

And that's also how you know, like... They're your people. They're your people. I'm glad that you guys debunked to know new friends recently on this podcast because I've never told... That came from this one. For the longest time, like, that was like a culture show. You have to take some credit for that

because people are saying that still. Oh, yeah. Oh, good. Have you heard that Tanache song? No broke boys? Yes. No broke boys, no new friends. Yeah, anyway.

It's another thing. Yeah, right. Natasha, you're on the bird to know what I'm just glad we know the same song. Hey! We don't have a culture catch up. You're good. No way. But like, I don't think it's no new friends.

I think it's like we just have to be a little bit more, I don't know, We just have to put our feelers out a little bit more selectively or not even selectively. It's just about time. It's about how you choose to spend your time. It's like, it's that, like, I think you said something one time that I tried to adopt, which is like, if I'm going on a date with you, it's a big deal.

You know what I mean? Just it's my time. Yeah. Because you don't have a lot of time. And also, time is precious. You realize even more and more, like, people get busy and stuff like that. So that is a, it's a, it's a, um, It's a kind of expression of love.

Like, I'm giving this time to you. And so when you invite someone in to that, like, that's real care. And that's what, you know, that's intense. Yeah. That's an expenditure. Yeah. Time in your life with someone. Well, in order to get there, where you even have the option of defining your time,

you've got to build your people. You've got to find your people. And I think our listener this week has a question about how to do that. And I think this is a good group that can help break it down. And we didn't plan this, but it's Alicia from Brisbane. Wow. I love it. How about that?

How about that? It just shows. We've got listeners all over the world. Pretty cool. Wow. Let's hear the question. Dear Michelle and Craig, I'm about to turn 30 and I'm not handling it as gracefully as I'd hoped. I'm not where I thought I'd be in life and I feel like I'm starting this new chapter from scratch.

I've been through a lot. reconciling with generational trauma and navigating hardships that, while painful, have shaped me into someone that I'm really proud of. These lessons have been meaningful, but most of them I've had to learn on my own and through a lot of trial and error. For many years, my picker was off in both friendships and relationships, and I had to learn the hard way about how I deserve to be treated and how to choose people who are healthy, safe and real. I've picked up a few beautiful friendships along the way,

but I've also made a lot of painful decisions in the process. Recently, I went through a big breakup with someone that I deeply loved and cared for. And now I find myself feeling lonely and with a strong sense of community. The friends that I had hoped would support me, people who have poured a lot into, have been caught up in their own lives, even though I've shared how much I've been struggling. This has left me doubting my own self-worth in if I've actually found my tribe. So my question is, how should I navigate these friendships, and how do I begin a new chapter in life, building a youth.

identity and community without letting past failures and unhealthy beliefs get in the way. Alicia 30. She's your age. You guys are babies, first of all. That's the one thing you have to remember. I had to, you know, just, it's like you guys are so young. We are. We're really in our middle age.

Oh, we are. No, don't do that, please. I mean, you know, we were talking about this question. And I just remember approaching 30s. is tough because it feels like, I guess any 20, 30, 40, 50, one of the milestones, yeah. Yeah.

And I... 60. Yeah, yeah. Man. But one thing is, I do feel like it does, and people say this, like, it does get better as you get older

because it's like, we were saying, it's like when you're in high school, they're like, these four years are going to be, four years you remember. And then you get to college and it's like,

I don't remember high school. And then you get, you're in college, you're like, these are the formative years. because when you're growing up, you think, oh, college, they're adults. Then you're in your 20s and you're like, college wasn't shit. You know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so right. And then, yeah. So what I would say to someone approaching 30 is it's like, it's like your book. It's like you're still becoming. You're always going to, you know, it's not about thinking, oh, I've reached 30. Because I was like this. I was approaching 30 and I thought that I had failed.

You know what I mean? Even as things were getting better. And I also think sometimes it's the compare to spare. You know what I mean? That's right. I happen to be best friends with someone who is, you know, like, I think one of the defining comedy stars of my generation. And that can be hard even as someone who is successful. Because sometimes it's like you think to yourself like it's never going to be enough.

But then you take that checkpoint off and you realize everything's not so bad. Not to say that this person isn't experiencing what they're experiencing. But it's about framing it, not like I haven't done it. It's just I haven't done it yet. Or maybe I don't even know what it is that I am meant to do. It's just a, it's like a gratitude in the present, I think. Also, I've had about seven personality transplants in my life. It's something about like 30.

It's like you're going through like the fourth version of yourself or something. I'm just throwing numbers out there. But, like, it's, you know, what I will say is Alicia seems to be hitting this wall with, like, her friends that she seems to have confided in. And she doesn't seem to be feeling that in return or doesn't feel that support. And I would say, like, that is probably a great sort of sign. It's like, well, then that's all the information you need, right? It's like, well, then don't, like, put your shields up. like don't, don't like pull back, but just know that you can't pour so much of yourself into

these specific people. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. You guys came at it from that way. I've been thinking about this and I'm thinking about it as a former athlete and a coach and a father. And as I've gotten older, the one thing that I wish I had done when I was younger was

enjoy the process more than the results. Absolutely. And if I would say anything to Alicia, it would be, hey, enjoy your process of your change, of what's going on. And it will make you a more fulfilled person and you are going to be more attractive and you're going to feel a self-worth and you're going to feel good about yourself. And that's going to make people, that's going to make people be drawn to you. Totally.

And my mom would say, why would you care what people would want to be drawn to you? But you do because you want some friends and you want to be in relationships. And I just think that I didn't start enjoying the process until I was well past my 30s. I was like in my, I was like grown in with kids where I was like, this is what I'm supposed to be enjoying. Not what I'm aiming for. I'll get what I get. Sure. But this process, I got to enjoy the birthday parties and I got to enjoy the, you have to enjoy the vacations and things like that.

So that's how I came in. Well, one thing I always want young people when I talk to them to avoid is being so afraid of a failing and living life that they don't even try. And when I think about my girls, you know, in this no new friends concept and trying to contradict that, it's like you can't live life afraid of making friends because something could go wrong. That like that just that makes life not worth living. It's just, you know, you can't live in the fear of somebody hurting you because you lose out on all the possibilities of wonderful people. you shut yourself off and you don't let anybody in. I would want Alicia to understand that. You have to practice making friends,

which means you're going to have to make some mistakes because guess what, having friends, having people is worth the risk. Yes. It is way worth the risk. I would take a million, you hurt my feelings, you disappointed me to find the one gym that you will find if you keep really building and knowing yourself. You know, those gems of friendships, to me, it's worth the hurt and disappointment.

People will hurt and disappoint you. Your own family will hurt and disappoint you. There are times when you two hurt and disappointed each other. That's a part of the process. But isn't it worth, you know, that risk, whenever you guys had your riff, you know, whatever it was? Yeah, I mean, there was a time we didn't speak for six months, you know, and still did the podcast. It's still to the podcast. And it's like, I mean, it's hard.

And there are things that come up. But imagine if you walked away from that. That's the thing is you have to decide what's worth fighting for. So it sounds like this person has also going through a pretty brutal breakup. And I get that. I mean, like, I had something once that knocked me down for like a couple of years. And it wasn't, it didn't seem like it made sense in terms of like how long the relationship had been, how significant it was to other people in my life. life, but I think we're always stronger as a result of, we've had some pretty large fights.

And, like, I do think. Fun, like, I've never shouted louder in a way that I'm terrible. I can't believe my voice can do that. Can I say? Yeah. There's no one better that I would shout at than you. No, because I can go toe to toe. Like, it's bad.

It's like a feral. We have one blow at every, like, two years. That's high. I know. It's not like, look forward to them. No, me neither, me neither. It's like, I hate it. In fact, it usually is within the same conversation that we're then crying.

I love to do this. Like, so it's just, but like, that is a part of dynamics between human beings. Yeah, I think, I mean, something you two have talked about is like unlearning. And this is, 30 is about that age where you unlearn like this effort result dichotomy that like either our parents have taught us or like society is internalized in us. like, oh, if I do this thing, if I put in this amount of effort, then I should expect this result. And so maybe Alicia feels disappointed that she's put an effort in her relationships, in her friendships, and the result she's gotten back is not the one that she wanted.

But maybe it's reframing it in terms of those results just being part of the larger, longer effort. Yeah. The effort is just like, oh, I tried my hand at this loving relationship that did not end well. It not ending well is not the result necessarily. That's right. It's couching the effort. Like how people make you feel on an instinct level.

Like when I'm around Bowen, he makes me feel smart. He makes me feel funny. He makes me feel like a powerful part of something, like a valuable part of something. And it's always been like that. When I think about the way that, for example, one of my exes made me feel, it was anxious. It was, you know, et cetera. It's like, and then I think of some friends, you know, like that go through seasons, you know. At this point, you know, maybe there's someone in my life.

life who's making me feel nervous. Yeah. Or who's making me feel... Maybe there's some friend in your life is making you feel a little horn in your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, clock the way that people are making you feel. I like that.

Yeah. Tell us more. Let's delve into that. That's cringe. We're so happy you guys are coming off. But like, but like, you're telling yourself a lot. Yeah. And like, you know, like, you know you.

And so when you're around someone and they make you feel a certain way, listen to that. Yeah. And that's also probably what Alicia is struggling with because when you're turning 30, you're just beginning to know you. Oh, yeah. Right. I mean, like you both have said, it's a long journey of self-discovery, right? And so she may feel a little more uncertain about making mistakes and maybe it's me and I don't

trust my picking meter. And it's like, yeah, at 30s. you're still learning your picking meter. There is no right or wrong way. And you don't develop wisdom any faster, you know? You don't have wisdom at 30, you know? It's just like I tried it to. I had a friend who's dating a younger person and he claimed that she's wise and she's 30.

And I'm like, she's not. Yeah. You know, there's a certain amount of knowledge that you have. I'm not saying that people aren't smart. Right. But wisdom is accumulated over time. There's no shortcut to it because you have to have experiences and successes and failures. And you have to look over yourself over a period of time to say, what did I learn about me? Yeah. You know, and I don't want Alicia to start questioning herself at 30, you know? It's like your picker's not off. You made, you, you didn't have the result you wanted a couple of times. And those experiences are going to help you define who you. are. You know, you'll know now what you like in friendships, what you, what's missing, you know, what do seasons look like for you. All of that comes with time. So by the time you're 40,

you'll have more discernment because you'll know yourself a little bit more. So some of this, I just want Alicia to be patient with herself, you know, stay in the game. Yeah. You know, don't back away, don't be afraid of people in friendships or hurt, because that's just part of it. And there's something really beautiful on the other side of that hurt. If you just keep, because you will heal from it. Yes. You know, even the worst fights that you have, we've had bad fights. You get over it.

You move on. You learn from it. We have not had any bad fights. Well, no, we don't. We don't. We don't fight. Is her brother just, you know, like sometimes it's like maybe they don't die. Because he doesn't fight.

I don't fight. I don't fight. But we, we, we, our, our biggest fight was a, I remember, I remember the big fight. I, I remember the big fight. Yes. Yeah, the big fight. I remember the big fight. I remember the big fight.

Yeah, the fight felt legitimate, by the way. It was, it was, I think it was right after your father passed away. Yeah. And I don't, in first, I don't remember it. I don't remember. You do. I remember it. Yeah.

But it was, it was a hurt fight. Yeah, we were just hurt. I'm thinking about. our big fights too. It was always interior. He was feeling depressed from being like run down in many different ways and I had just been gone through a breakup and

we collided in this. It was insane. It was so stupid. I had gone to a chapel Rhone concert. This is before Chapel Rhone was huge. And I was like you gotta listen to Chapel Rone and he was ignoring me and posted an Instagram story. And so I was like you're going to me.

And like I was and then he was I'm depressed. And I was And I shouted the words in my trailer while we were shooting Wicked. I go, I'm not, I don't have to respond to you when you tell me about Chap around. He didn't even know who she was. I didn't know who she was. He wouldn't know. He's like, maybe I'm wrong.

So, I know. And he attempts taking it back. Yeah. So you guys, you guys sound like my two, Austin. And you sound like how brothers fight. And we're brothers. We're brotherly, though. What it is.

You guys are brothers. We have our sensitivities. I'm really sensitive to being ignored. Yeah. So like when I feel like I'm being ignored, that sets me off. And I'm sure you have your thing. Oh, absolutely. Like it's just, but you know.

And it's like because it is like family, that's what I mean is it's like sometimes it's not like it doesn't always feel like, oh, it was a big fight because this crazy thing happened. Yeah. You didn't text me back about Chapel Rhone and posted a photo with Ariana Maddox at an event. Literally. It's like, I think I was a little jealous. You evil person.

Yeah. It's like how when you're with family, you can crap your pants and it's okay. That's right. They'll take you home. They'll fix you up. And now it's only fun. And that's what Alicia has to learn.

Because the thing you learn about yourself at 35, 36, 37 is that you have that sensitivity. You know, it takes you a minute of practice to say, okay, that that yelling wasn't about him. It was about me. And that's like a mid-30s. the end of the 30s realization, right? I mean, it takes you a second to start really owning your own stuff. Yeah. Right?

So maybe some of these fights that Alicia had were her fault. Maybe she does need to take a step back and maybe she did something wrong. Accountability. We just talked about that. And the older I get, the more accountable I become, you know, because I, you know, I know, I know when it's my fault. now, really, and I can't pretend like it was, you hurt me. And it's like, no, I was, you know, I was feeling hurt. I'm depressed right now. I took that out. We had that argument because I took

something out on you. And it takes years and years of practice of connecting with people that you love and care about before you understand who's in the right, who's in the wrong, what was your part. It takes time, you know? So I want young people to have the patience to hang in there with a bunch of things with friendships, with relationships, with careers. You know, it is not the TikTok instantaneous, you know, feedback that we're now used to. Because I do think that the way that intention spans, like, oh, this person isn't my, isn't getting it right away. I'm going to move on because I do think that bleeds in from the way the stimulus. That's so great, Matt, because it makes me think about, you know, people get stuck in the way they made friends when they were a teenager.

Yeah. And my sister is good at making new, is discerning her new friendships better than I am. And that's the, I want you to share some of your advice for Alicia. She's sort of coming out of her 20s and going into her 30s. How should she go about making new friends here? Making new friends is a risky proposition. So it's not comfortable, right? You have to become uncomfortable because sometimes you have to step out of your

yourself and go and meet somebody, right? It's a risk. You know, you have to put yourself out, right? And we're living in a culture where nobody has to put themselves out. Everybody's getting accustomed to living a life on a phone, very internal. You know, COVID just exacerbated that. So what I would tell Alicia is that making friends require you to take a risk, you know, and it requires you to be engaged in the world. So you are not going to make new friends sitting. on your phone in your computer in your house. No one's going to knock on your door. Tinder isn't a,

we still don't have friendship Tinder. No, we don't. People, that's, and it's funny you bring that out because I really do feel like, so we had had the podcast from 2016 on, and then 2020 happened and it was COVID. And after that, something did change with our, like, listener community.

They reached out and they were saying how lonely they were and what a comfort it was. And then you start to see them, connect because they have the same interest, which maybe is the podcast or things that we talk about. And I think that ultimately that is what we are most proud of is the fact that it is something that brings people together that we created. That's what the awards are. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, we look out and like we've done the awards for a few years and sometimes I do go online and I'll look at like our Reddit page and they'll be making plans to meet up. Like loneliness may be a unifier. may be something from that that we can take power in, just like expressing, I'm solo right now. I'm flying solo to this thing. Would anyone want to link up? You know what I mean? And usually you will not be disappointed. No. You know, for Alicia, it's worth the risk. So, you know, I'd say, you know, take a chance, be bold. You know, don't, don't lean back from this experience. don't let these hurts make you small in terms of your desire to be a part of a group.

But it will take work. It does take effort. It is not instantaneous. It requires a plan. And it requires you executing against the plan. And you're going to get hurt. And it's okay. You will heal from it and you will grow from it and it'll be all right.

And you're in Brisbane. So go to the koala sanctuary. Okay. That's right. Bowen with some real Just don't touch them. Just don't touch them. I held koalas.

I have had the pleasure. Is that the best animal you've ever held? No, I'm wrong. It wasn't koalas. It was pandas. Oh, even better. That's even. Oh, I'm sorry.

We should get some real takeaways for Alicia before we go. We digress. We digress for a second. Try a safari. Yeah. That's a way to make friends. It would be huge for you.

Yeah. I was going to start with your, just, Open, it's hard, but be open and honest and vulnerable. Okay. And any takeaways you guys want to give to Elie? I think Craig and I are on the same level, which is like the process, which is, as it ties to mine, it's like the result is part of the effort. And it is just being like put into this larger Russian nesting doll of effort. You know, the result will be good in the end.

Yeah, you're not doing it wrong because there's no doing it right. I like that as well. There's no one way to live a life. And it's, you know, you're not getting it wrong. You're not making mistakes. I like that point. And I would just say, Alicia, please cut yourself some slack. You're only 30, girl.

You got a lot of time. Yeah, it sounds high. Yeah. Regroup and relax and enjoy being in Brisbane. So. Yeah. You guys, this has been terrific. And thank you so much.

Thank you so much. In love with you. Love you guys. Really truly. And I'm tuning in to the Culture Award. You got us. When does it air? August 5th on Bravo, the next day on Peacock.

Okay. Yes. The Bravo Peacock Dance. It's going to be wild. We've been in the writer's room every day and like actively putting it together. Is it how long of a special? How long of us? Two hours?

Two hours. And you've got musical guests. Any surprise, anything? Can we drop some tea here? I don't think of anything we can say yet. We'll be there. Okay. All right.

Yeah. Good enough. That's enough. That's enough. Good enough. Where do you film? It's going to be in L.A. Theater on July 17th.

We're filming it. And it's a blast. It's really the live event. It sounds like it. Well, I'll be too. in. Yay. Maybe next year I can, you know, sneak, make a sneak appearance.

Listen. Let's just say open invitation for your both. Let's just put that out there. That's our extension. That's making fun. Well, Bowen and Matt, it is been a pleasure. You guys are funny and smart. And sweet.

Yeah. So nice. Likewise, I'm sure. Yeah. Thank you for sharing all your wisdom with our IMO listeners. And, you know, any tips you can give us, because we want to be where you are in a decade. Down the access.

That's right. That's right. Put those strawberries in the raisin bag. Oh, yes. Let me tell you. When you're making cereal. There's no right way to make breakfast. That's right.

That's right. That's right. You guys, thanks so much.