IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Let’s Talk About Hair

Episode Date: November 12, 2025

For many Black women, caring about their hair isn’t a choice – it’s a cultural inheritance, a political statement and a lifelong journey. Julee Wilson, Beauty Editor-at-Large of Cosmopolitan, joins the show to lead a candid discussion between Michelle Obama, her hairstylist Yene Damtew and Blackish actress Marsai Martin about their personal hair journeys, and how Michelle’s hair evolution both mirrored and inspired their own.To read Julee Wilson's work, visit: https://www.cosmopolitan.com/style-beauty/beauty/a69183226/black-hair-shows/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dude, this fashion is counting for at least one percentage approval waiting for you. You know, this gown, you know, somebody is... Put some respect on the fact that me coming out here slaying and looking this good is helping our situation. It's your situation, too. It's only value at it, dude. It's only value at it. This episode is brought to you by Ribbon. Welcome to The Look, a special series on IMO.

The Look is also the name of Michelle Obama's beautiful. new book, which is available for purchase now. I'm Julie Wilson, award-winning journalist and beauty editor at large at Cosmopolitan, and it's my pleasure to be here with Yenai Demp II, renowned beauty expert, founder, and owner of aesthetics salon in Arlington, Virginia, and longtime stylist to Mrs. Obama. And Marseille Martin, award-winning actor, producer, and founder of genius productions. And of course, the one, the only, Michelle Obama. Welcome, everyone. All right, I need to know what your hair journey was.

What was it like growing up in the south side of Chicago being a beautiful little black girl? What were some of your earliest hair memories? Oh, sadly, it was combative. Okay. You know, my mother admittedly grew up saying that she was not a hair mom. She was one of seven kids, two little brothers, a lot of girls, but I don't think my mom wasn't a girly girl in that way, right? So I think she was intimidated by hair and by my hair, right?

Because I had a lot of it. It was thick. It was all over the place. And so Wash Day for her felt like a battle, right? And that's what it was. It was washed day. As I described in the book, it was like Sundays were over. I felt imprisoned by my hair when I was a little girl because we didn't have the facilities.

You know, you got your hair washed on the cold for Micah kitchen sink. Right. That was annoying. You know, the back of your head hurt because you're leaning over it. And then the water is trickling out of a faucet. And sometimes it's hot, sometimes it's cold. And one thing I never realized back then, we weren't using the right hair care products for us because there were like, you got what you got at the grocery store. Right.

There was an abundance. There wasn't an abundance. There wasn't, you know, the soft sheen line hadn't really fully come out. So she was using Wella balsam on my hair. Wow. And as you now knows, I didn't even realize that, that that product stripped all the oils out of our hair. It wasn't designed for black hair. So, you know, she'd wash it twice.

And then the process of detangling that hair that without the under-conditioning. I wasn't by the time I, you know, I couldn't be. Right, right, right. So I think I was pretty good for a kid, but still, it took, it's, took what felt like hours to comb through all my hair and then the process of straightening. You know, it's like the hot comb on the stove. You know, talk about heat on hair with a little oil. It was that the yellow oil. The ultrachine.

Ultrashein oil. I still remember it because I think maybe those were the only products we had. We had the ultracine. I feel like this is like really like something we all have. common. Like, hair is such a shared experience for black girls. Like, do you guys remember, like, getting your hair pressed, like, at home? Oh, yeah, yeah. But that wasn't, it was funny enough, my mom tried to stray away from getting my hair straight

and as much as possible because every time I'd get impressed when I was younger, it turned out horribly because I would either go to school and it would look crazy or I would do something. Right, right, right. Funny story. Because I always used to get like curling rods. Like she used to just rod curl my hair. And then I'd wake up and then take the rods out and just being like a... That was my principal hairstyle.

So when I got it pressed with the hot comb and in the kitchen, I used to think I was like the little white girls in my class with her hair straight. And I remember every lunch before recess, they would go into the bathroom and they would get a cup of water and straighten their hair like this. And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, okay. Not understanding what reversion was. I did it with them thinking that we keep in like, ha, ha, yeah, yeah.

And they're like, we like your hair. I'm like, thank you, thank you. And then it's Texas heat, too. So I'm talking to one of my other friends, they're like, your hair. I'm like, what? I'm on the top of the slide. I'm like, what are you talking about? It's like,

man I got in trouble our very eyes it was like my mom was it girl what happened what were you thinking and that was the thing about once you got your hair pressed you were captive

you know and and I think that that goes along and I was a tomboy I loved playing sports I was out there sweating I used to want to be and I liked an afro one of my favorite I love baseball

I was played softball when I was a little. One of my heroes was Jose Cardinal on the Chicago Cubs. And he was black first baseman and he had this huge afro that he would put his cap on and then pick it out. And so the hair would be framing the hat. And that's how I love to wear my hair with the cap on and have it picked out at bat, you know. So I wanted to be active. But when you get your hair press, you know, mom's like, don't touch your hair, don't move, don't sweat. You almost got to, like, walk around like this, right? Hope it doesn't rain.

And it's not just pressed. And don't think about swimming. Even curls, like ponytail's. Right. On Sundays, I only got my hair pressed for special occasions, but regularly my mother, Sundays, you lay out, you sit between her legs, you try to touch your head, she hits you with the comb. Right. Put your hair in pigtails and just even braids or two twist, it was such a thing and it was an all-day experience. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

And it was one of those things my brother freely could run around. He could play in the neighborhood. He could do whatever it is that he wanted. But on Sundays, I had to sit and get my hair done. And my mom, similar to Mrs. Robinson, my mother only went to this beauty salon. She never took care of her own hair. So trying to do my hair, it wasn't even if I was tenderheaded. It just, she wasn't really good at it either.

So it was just kind of like, this is painful. Yeah. And it doesn't look good at the end. But it's just what you do. Yeah. My father, funny story, my father actually pressed me and my sister's hair. Wow. Like, he grew up with three sisters in North Carolina.

Okay. And had like the hot comb on the stove, the whole nine yards. And like just captive audience with his girls, like pressing our hair. Like grease on the back of his hand. Oh, man. Like so interesting. I don't think my father ever touched my hair. I can't think of a moment.

It's a very unique experience. And to bond, right? Yeah. We bond around here, sitting in, you know, between the legs, getting your hair braided, that sort of thing. And I feel like we probably all got burnt on our forehead at some point, right? On the back of my neck. Oh, yeah.

Trying to get in my kitchen. It was like the back of my great-grandma. It was always the worst one was on your forehead. Oh, yeah. Because, like, you can't cover that. Or you would get, like, I love that picture of you when you're little with, like, your ponytail and that bang, that barrel. Yeah, that yoga.

From the sponge roller. From the sponge roller. Well, I eventually, because my mother was so bad at doing my hair, I started going to Miss Phillips' little salon in her basement across the alley. Because my mother gave up so soon. So here I am, six years old, probably going across the alley with my little money to Miss Phillips' basement, you know, the kind of basement salon that I think is almost in every black neighborhood. Still. Yeah. You have a salon.

We don't talk about that. Yeah. And she could press my hair faster, get it straighter. Yep. And then she would do this thing where she would make a bang. And she put this kind of a hair stick that you put on your forehead that would hold the bang on your forehead. I don't know if you. Like a wax stick?

Yeah. It wasn't a wax stick. I remember it felt like a hair glue of some sort. But she just put it on my forehead. and press it down so that the bang would stick to my head. And I always thought that was kind of cool. It was like, almost like an edge control. I mean, I think about sprits and like pump it up back in the day.

So it's probably like a Bronner Brothers or Dudley's product. Yeah. That's cool. What up? Are you like, yeah, she was new art and crafts. She was like, like, Oregon. Very innovative. We're so innovative, black bar.

We are. But I want to talk about. the salon of it all, right? Like, going to the salon, I mean, that's such an experience. The other women there, what are they getting their hair done? What are they talking about? I mean, you own a salon. Do you have that level of community and a village sense with your customers? Absolutely. You know, when we opened up aesthetics in 2017, one of the things that I realized living in the DMV was that I grew up in Orange County growing to the salon, the salon experience, not salon suites, no shade to salon suites, but being in a communal environment. It's a place where we organize. It's a place where we

build community. And so in the DMV, I didn't feel like that really existed. And so when we opened up aesthetics, I was very adamant about building a space where women of color can come that are in the professional workplace that aren't there all day, but they still get that salon feel. Like you still, it's like, oh, there's, you know, Michelle, that's, she has a standing appointment on Friday or, you know, you're not going to have somebody coming in with the bootlegs or like selling a food plate, but you still are getting that camaraderie and you're still getting hair care. And I think now more than ever you don't see hair care take place in the salon because everyone is doing quick trends. You know, people are slapping on a wig.

Cool, that's great. It serves a purpose, but how are we treating our hair underneath? And so it was really extremely important to me to build a space in a community where that existed. Were you up in the salon when you were young? I was. I was up in the salon. And then, of course, I started Blackish when I was nine. So that was a whole new world.

That was kind of my version of the salon in a sense, you know. And I was with people that I worked with every day. It would be whether it was 7 a.m. or 7 p.m., like that's where we were just constantly getting our hair change for different scenes. And that was my first time really getting to explore the amount of styles that can be for my hair, you know. Because I think growing up in Dallas, it was really only. only what I was telling you all, like the rod set with the curls or, you know, my terrible press, you know, get my hair straight.

Right. But working with Aroxie Lindsay, which is absolutely amazing, so talented. So, so talented. And so unique and a perfectionist and really, like, transforms your hair into something different that you would have never thought in a million years. Like, oh, I didn't even know it could look like this. So I, growing up with her, it was really, really. special to be able to see that and maybe learn more about it, you know?

Yeah. Both my mom and my little sister have different hair textures that I would always, in a way, feel interesting about myself of like, hmm, there's two different textures, but like theirs is very fine, really thin, can be in a ponytail, like in 20 seconds. Mine is super thick in the middle. I can't even get it. You know, I have to use a hair clip. And it just was really different.

And especially growing up on Blackish, you know, with Yara and Tracy, they have two different hair textures than I do. So I needed that person to help me figure out what was for me to where I constantly didn't have to question, you know, if my hair even told a story, you know. But I have to say watching it, and I'm sure you guys would agree. Yeah. It was so beautiful, one seeing a black family like that, you know, to. for us to have that storytelling beyond the Cosbys and like that sort of thing. But also the hair inspiration, right? Between you, Yard and Tracy, like, I would just be like, oh, I want to do that and look at that.

I know. I wish I had you when the girls were little because I used to run out of styles. I just creatively, I'm like, okay, one poof, two poofs, you know. But then I'd see your character and I'd be like, oh, I could have tried that. Yeah. Such cute stuff. Well, it's just amazing how we don't see a lot of inspiration for our type of hair on television. And I think that that was a big part of what kind of got me off on the wrong track in terms of loving my hair.

It was because when we were growing up, we had no images. There were no images of black hair, black characters, let's be. alone black children. You know, we grew up watching the Brady Bunch. It was Marcia and Jan, and it was the Partridge family, and it was, I think, the closest young person that I saw was Janet Jackson. And she was still a baby, you know? So it was a Jackson five, but Janet Jackson wasn't a part of the sort of American zeitgeist

in the same way. So the notion that we grow up playing with Malibu Barbie and who wants the Chrissy doll with the curly hair because you're always trying to fix the hair. You want the hair to flow. Yeah. And I think that a lot of women, white women, don't understand how problematic it is for young black girls not to see themselves in popular culture and not to pay, give respect and to show examples of our beauty. Yes. And that we are beautiful, right? Like how do you have to see it. And for it to be celebrated in the world to say, wow, yeah, it's being celebrated. Of course, I'm beautiful.

But if you don't see that, so was your mother, who was telling you you were beautiful? You know, we didn't talk about beauty in my household, you know? I mean, it wasn't, you know, my parents were more focused on how smart you were and grades. I don't know whether that was intentional or not, but I don't remember us sitting, sitting around focusing on looks, period, right? Yeah. So I probably wasn't until I was maybe in high school that I started thinking about taking control over my look.

And I think that had to do with the fact that I went to a neighborhood public school. So, you know, from K through 8, I was in the neighborhood. And then I got into a magnet high school and I drove across the city and it was the school that attracted kids from all over the city. So it was the first time I was around all kinds of kids, all kinds of racist, all kinds of socioeconomic backgrounds of black people. So Joe Dudley was in my high school class, the son of Dudley. And they were wealthy people. You know, there were people, young kids like me who were going downtown to get their hair done. They were, we had to commute through downtown Chicago. So I started going into the department stores there.

And I started to see, oh, like, there are black girls that are, that do have a lot of variety. They are doing different things with their hair. I think it was high school when I started discovering the possibility of style in clothing and in hair because I was a around a lot more people. And you got creative. You started doing... And I started exploring. I started looking for my own hair dressers. You know, I started getting recommendations.

I would see somebody and go, oh, girl, your blowout looks nice. Where do you go? Yeah. And I would take my little babysitting money. And I go down, and that's where I found my first hair salon community was in high school when you talk about that salon. It was Ronnie Flowers. The salon with Van Cleef.

I started going to him. in my senior year in high school, and he did my hair from senior year in high school until I went to the White House. Wow. That relationship was that close. That is beautiful. And that's what we're talking about, that salon relationship. Hi, I'm Carl Ray, and I am Michelle Obama's longtime makeup artist. My work has introduced me to so many interesting experiences.

I've worked in film, TV, print, fashion, and beauty all around the world. I've also had the pleasure to work with many celebrities and dignitaries along the way. And I'd love to work with you. So the next time you're booking on Airbnb, click on the services tab. You'll find professionals like me and my team. We can help make your next special occasion even more memorable. Weddings, gala, birthdays, headshots, or any time you just want to feel and look your very best. You can find me at Airbnb.com slash services.

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That's masterclass.com slash IMO pod for 15% off. But I love Michelle how you were saying in high school, you kind of realized, like, I always love asking the question, when did you? you know black was beautiful? And like you kind of having that realization then, what about you, Marseille and, you know, like when did you know black was beautiful? Ooh, when did I know black was beautiful? I mean, I think just starting in my household. Like I grew up with, of course, my parents were around, but also my great grandma lived with us. So basically like my mom's mom and then my mom's mom's mom all lived in the same place.

intergenerational. Yes. Exactly. And then my dad's mom also lived in our house. Wow. So it was just full of grandparents. That were loving on you.

That was just loving on me. And funny enough, we didn't talk about beauty too much either, but it was more like, if I'd come home from school and I'd be like, this person said this to me, my mom would be like, F them, you're gorgeous.

Right, right. And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, okay, that's cool. But I especially learned from my mom's mom, who I called my booba, she had a range of wigs and a range of nail polish. And even my great-grandma collected purses. And they just always were about self. Always.

First. And then it would be like, like, you know, midday, they would cater to everybody, you know. Start cooking, playing music, you know, making sure I was okay. And my puppy at the time. And it was really just, it was sweet when I just started observing. more, you know, and that's where I learned just that black was beautiful. And back then and now and seeing the transition into, you know, when I was young growing up in Dallas with them. And then now them being my angels up above and kind of guiding through those situations of like,

wow, my boobo would have said this at the time. Or if someone, you know, told me this, like I would remember everything that they said to me. So that's definitely the first time I I learned. Absolutely. Yeah. I love that. What about you, YNA? High school. I think high school is probably like the pivotal moment. I was a cheerleader. Similar to Marseille, all the girls wanted to put water on their hair. And I knew. I knew. I was like, my hair can't do that. See, I didn't know. I was like, my hair can't be that. You felt for the work you dope. Right. I said, they laughed and I want to laugh too.

They were like, we're going to make our hair crinkily. We're just going to put some water on it. And I was like, I can't put water on it. And they're like, why? And I was like, because my hair won't do what your hair does. And coming home, again, my mother was just kind of like, my parents were very protective. We grew up in Orange County, predominantly white, an Asian neighborhood. I was the only black in a lot of environments. And so my parents were very protective of like, you are fine, you're worthy. But on the weekends, we spent all of our time in L.A.

So it was two different worlds that I would see. I would be in Orange County and I would live in that world. And then I would go to L.A. And I would be around like predominantly black neighborhoods. So it was two different contrast. And so I got to see both sides. And I felt more comfortable when I was around more black folks than I was at school. Because at school, it was just kind of like the way that I speak.

And like my hair is different and how I present. And then I'm first generation Ethiopian American. I have a funny name. There was just so many. It was layered for me. So high school is when my parents really started to be like, you're beautiful, you're fine. Like I was a cheerleader. I ran for Homecoming Princess.

It was then that I was like the self-esteem and the confidence was being instilled in me. It was like you're perfectly fine the way that you are. And the pride of being like a black woman in that space. Yes. Because in the beginning you're ashamed. You're kind of like, I'm different. You retract. You don't want to say too much.

Yeah. And then you realize like, nope, I'm going to say what I want. Right. Michelle, like going from the south side of Chicago to Princeton, what was that transition like? Because that's got to be a lot. You're now, you were in high school, you're learning that black is beautiful, that you're experimenting with your hair and doing all the things.

So what was the Princeton experience like? You know, it's interesting because, and I enjoyed my Princeton experience. I had great education. I made great friends. I think one of the things that saved me was that I wasn't curious about assimilating. Okay. What I had learned in high school and growing up on the south side of Chicago

and growing up in a big extended family is that I need to go where I'm loved and have community. Absolutely. Now, when it came to hair, well, that was another story because I'm in Princeton, New Jersey. Right. And the first thing you do is you set down foot. and you start finding all the black girls, where you get your hair done. Where do you get your hair done. And there were some girls that were sophisticated enough that by then I had a relaxer way too soon,

but I gave up on the pressing comb very early and my mother was happy to see it go. By then I was in a relaxer. So how do you get your touch-ups? And for those of you don't know about relaxers for black people, you know, it's a process of chemically straightening your hair. And that means as your hair grows out in its curly style, you need to continue to straighten that new growth that comes in, which is every six-week process. And now here I am a freshman in college. So there was a department store called Bamberger's in a mall near Trenton. There was a hair salon there. I went there for the first year. And it was just another hassle. Right. Because in addition to going to classes and trying to have a life and go to a party, I had to make my hair appointments and go off campus and get on a bus and go to the mall. Like hair, really.

It just, it's just like, oh, geez. Always a thought. But I discovered I met my D.C. friends, a lot of girlfriends from D.C. So now I'm out, I'm not just out of my neighborhood and in the city. I'm in the, I'm on the East Coast. And I'm finding that there's a whole different attitude about hair for my girlfriends who, live in D.C. because there were a ton of braiders in D.C. And that's when I was like, oh, I could be getting my hair braided. Yeah. So sophomore year, I visited one of my girlfriends, got my hair braided. Then I went back to my salon, found a braider. And I started wearing my hair braided in sophomore year. And a lot of that was because I just, I just needed, I needed to be efficient. I needed to be focusing on class and having fun and not.

worrying about getting touch-ups. That was the first time I felt not only beautiful in the braids, but free. Yes. Protective styles will really change your life and allow you to just like live. But I wanted to ask you guys too, like once you got that freedom, college or going off to do your career or whatever, did you guys ever do anything that you're like now left to my own devices? Like, why did I do that? Cosmetology School. I did everything under. the sun. I had pink hair. I had blue hair. You did the color of it all. I. I just put it on. You bleached my hair. You lifted your hair, bleached it, and then put color on top of it. And then it fell out. And I used to have really thick hair. And I just blame myself. I know better now. And I was, you're experimenting in cosmetology school and you're just trying different looks and you're trying to be a creative. But again, it's also one of those things where my counterparts were doing all these different things with their hair. So I was like, I'm going to do the same thing too. And I'm learning about this. So why not? I look at the water in my hair too.

That was your water moment. But my hair didn't respond the same way. There was a little more care, nourishment, love that my hair needed beyond just using whatever products, doing whatever. And, you know, what we were learning in hair school wasn't for my texture. But I didn't, I was just like, well, I'm an educational institute. So of course they're going to guide me in the right way. And it wasn't. And afterwards, I was like, okay.

then I was like, no more color, no more nothing. I'm just going to take a break from it all. But it was definitely an experiment. Yeah. What about you, Marseille? I'm trying to figure it out. I changed you so much. Yeah, I think, honestly, I've been so secure in the styles that I like since I was little.

I really didn't change it too, too much. It's so funny because I learned it. I'm like thinking more about the mistakes that happened after. like transitioning to one style to the next. So like when I get my hair braided and it's time to take them down, it was just me by myself trying to take my hair down, you know, trying to be grown. Like, okay, I got you, Mom, I got it, Mom. I was like, my hair's, you know, stayed the same.

I'd cut it up here. Yeah, I couldn't. Oh, girl. And not here. I didn't know you had to start here. Right, right. I cut it up here. You were like, it's not that.

Like, yeah, yeah. And then I take pictures in my little bit. bob, my little braid bob that I made. Like, oh, this is cute. And then I take it down, and then it just looks really bad. It would be like part of it's up here, part of it's down here, and it

just was, yeah. But I just, I'm thinking about, like, those kind of little mishabs that just taught me more about just my hair overall. I'm like, oh, okay, maybe I just need to take this step before taking this step. I've dyed

my hair before, but never pink and blues. It was probably like... It's currently died now. But the first time I died, it was like a blonde. Like, it was like a honey blonde. Yeah, it was a honey blonde. And it was 2020.

You know, no one was cared. We was inside. We was in the house. And yeah, that was like the one time where I really died my hair. And it was funny because back then, you know, everything was really, really, really. really remote, of course, during 2020. So it was the BET Awards, and I had to present in my backyard.

And that was the first time people saw, like, the honey blonde. Yes. We got to pull up that picture. Yeah, right. Y'all can pull it up. Y'all can pull it up. But I think that was definitely, that was a time. Let me just say that.

That was a time. And then there was comments there was like, why is her hair blonde? Like, is that a wig? And I was like, I don't know what to do. I was like, I'm just trying. that I liked it. Yeah, I was just trying stuff. And my mom was like, it's okay.

Look, Eiffel. Like, you like your hair? So I did a video that was just like addressing the haters. And that was very, very funny. I love it. I love the humor, but the clap back and all of that. That brings up such a good point about our hair is people touching it, petting us, right? and like how have you guys navigated that

because I've definitely been on the New York subway and someone's hand is just like in my head where I've had superior like at jobs touch my hair and it's just like... So what did you do in those? I mean, when I was on the subway, it was like, no, please don't touch my hair. Actually, hot tip, never touch a black woman's hair, period.

You shouldn't touch anyone's hair, but like, Salon wrote a whole song about it. You can go listen to it on but what I'm saying on Spotify. But like don't touch my hair, please. When it was in the workplace, it was harder because this is a superior. And so like, and it was a white woman.

And it's hard because you're like, in that moment you just feel like me too. Like you just feel like, oh my God, that was uncomfortable. How do I put that person in their place and keep my job and my livelihood? And so you just internalize it and you go home and cry

in your husband's arms. And that's what I did. And then custer out, like, you know, at home with my friends. But, you know, that is a very unique experience. I feel like most black women have encountered where someone wants to touch your hair. How is that? Like, I want to feel it. What's the texture?

And, like, but unsolicited. But I think that's why conversations like this, why I wanted to talk about hair in the look. Because I think I want us as women. of color, all the women of color in the world with all the different textures. I want us to get comfortable, you know, with the subject of our hair and owning our beauty and, you know, and and educating and being a part of educating in our circle of conversations, welcoming people into these circles of conversation to have questions answered and to help people understand the boundaries that they take for granted or they don't offer us.

You know, and this is completely true when it comes to the workplace. I mean, you know, the notion that there is a right way for hair to look and to feel is really a presumptuous kind of, wow. How does anyone get to the point where they think that they can comment on somebody else's hair? And let me tell you, as First Lady, you know, even though I wore my hair braided in college when it was time for, for me to get my, to walk into that law firm, to start getting jobs. It wasn't even a question in my mind. You just knew. It was just like, it wasn't, it wasn't up for discussion. There was a standard of hair, and it required a lot of care. I mean, it's actually, to get your hair blow dry and, I mean, I had a standing, we all know the standing appointment. Yeah. That is weekly. I have a sin every two weeks, particularly. I had one weekly. and it's costly and it's time-consuming in ways that a lot of people don't understand.

You know, coming into the White House and we were having conversations, I came in with a relaxer. And I knew the importance of making broader statements about hair as the first black first lady. But I will tell you, I consciously understood that at least until people knew me, which took eight years, that I needed to not make hair a part of the conversation, which is why I'm taking the time to talk about it now. Because it always is an important part of a woman and a black woman's journey. But I couldn't risk. I know. That was such a powerful statement when you came out. and said America wasn't ready.

It wasn't ready for that. You know? I mean, they couldn't handle me and my husband giving each other a fist bump on stage. They couldn't handle your arms out. With my arm. In your portrait, they were like, what is going on? Could you imagine if you came down with some box braids? Like, they would be like, what is that?

Why is she wearing her hair like that? You know, like, I think that that's so profound that you were able, like, because, too, You could have been like, screw it, say it loud and black and I'm proud, I'm going to do the things. But that could have also overshadowed everything else that you guys were trying to do politically. And there's also, you know,

this is, we talk a lot about change and the evolving and the speed of it. And I know that generationally people get impatient and they want change now. And change is one of those things. It's like you've got to, you got to, read the room sometimes and feel the time. In my mind, I knew there was going to come a point

in time in my public life where I was going to get my braids back in. I was going to reclaim that. But the bigger point of getting the ACA passed and doing work with health with kids and, you know, military families and all the things that were on my husband's agenda. fashion and hair had to be a backstory for the moment. Choose your battles. You know what you had to get done. Exactly. But I knew that representation is important. I knew that I knew that then, I know it now, which is why we're doing this. Because now it's time. We should now be in a point in our nation's history. You know, even though sometimes it feels like we're going backwards, that we have to start accepting and embracing the differences of all of us.

That there isn't a standard of beauty and it doesn't look like what's on the magazine cover. That's taste. Right. You know, that's just sort of what you might happen to like. Right. But it isn't the standard, you know. Yeah. And we have to start educating people about all kinds of beauty.

Yes. And our beauty is so powerful and so unique that it is worthy of the conversation and it's worthy of demanding the respect that we're owed for who we are and what we offer to the world. Absolutely. Absolutely. Marseille and you know, I want to know what you guys also think about this now and this day and age, the freedom, right? you're styling people's hair and like overseeing your salon. You're out here with these amazing braids. And like I've scrolled through your Instagram so much like seeing all of the hairstyles that you do.

It seems like there is this beautiful level of freedom where you're not second guessing whether I want to do this style or not or present myself in this way and not be, you know, criticized in a huge way. Yeah. I know for me it's just about, I think in this day and age, too, the only thing that I can really focus on is my originality, just what I bring to the table, you know, such as anybody else. I think that I am lucky enough and beyond blessed to have a family that never told me that I am flawed in any. any kind of way when it comes to the styles that I want to do and the decisions that I choose to make. And, you know, I trusted that. I trusted them. I trusted my family. I trusted my grandparents and just the people around me that said that it was okay to do what my heart

desired. And I just kind of wanted to carry that throughout, regardless of what social media said or anybody that I would approach on the street said. I trusted that statement. I didn't trust, you know, anything else. So for me, that's just kind of what I wanted to do. And I am happy during this time. People have started just to tell their own story and having their journey speak for themselves

when it comes to their hair, makeup, fashion, or whatever the case may be. So as a creator at heart, somebody that just kind of wants to brainstorm, and just do whatever. That excited me. So, you know, I think that's just the energy that I carry in any red carpet and anything. Whether I'm in the house, going out to the grocery store, or I'm, you know, going to the next event.

Like, that's just what it is. And I've had my braider Twy, who is absolutely amazing. In L.A., I've had her since I was 13, maybe. Maybe, like, really when I started a little in that whole trajectory of everything, that's really when I started being like, all hands on deck, who are my people? Who is my team? Like, who are the people that understand me and also would be able to explain the things that I don't understand and have a new light in a new lane that I can create for myself? So I was going to say, do you bring your glam with you, like on projects? Are you very, like, adamant if someone.

reaches out to you for a project, you're like, I'm bringing my hair and makeup people, because I'm not leaving it to y'all to figure out what this face and this hair gives. It's really interesting. It's funny because I've gotten pickier, but I wasn't like this. I wasn't like this about it.

I've gotten pickier, the more stories that I've had throughout my life in different memories. I wasn't asked picky, you know, if Roxy wasn't with me or anybody else. I'm like, all right, let's see who's from New York. I mean, New York got some people, of course. And then this lady who came in,

didn't know how to lay some edges. She had a wax stick and a straightener to put in a ponytail. It was just the craziest thing. I was going to a, I was going to a Prada fashion show at the time. Oh, no. And you're probably like, oh, my gosh, I want to slay. Yeah, that was, that was crazy. I had to be 14, 15 at the time.

And my mom came in and she said, all right, you have a good one. The lady left. And she said, where's my, you know, the pom-pong bun? The pom-pong bun. She put it in. And she popped that bun in. She drew the draw.

The straw. She was like, and put some bobby pins in. Got a little scarf. She's like, not today. My baby's not going to be up the product. She said, luckily proud I got a scarf. She said,

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She's been with you in the White House. I want to talk about this level of freedom now. Yeah, I love this. Because this is, you have been giving us looks. You too have been creating such moments, hair moments. Talk about that freedom and the collaboration you guys have. Now that you can kind of step away from the whole respectability politics of the White House and you can have fun. How does it like collaborating?

Do you guys come to each other with ideas? I do. Like, how does that work? We do collaborate. We need all the tea. The main thing for me is making sure that she feels beautiful and she feels empowered. And anything that we do, it's always a conversation. And it's not just a conversation between myself and Michelle, but it's a conversation with the whole glam team.

It's not about owning a part of her. And I think that that's what makes our team so special is that we collaborate asking Meredith and Carl, like, what are your ideas? Like, what is she wearing? Where is she going? What is she doing? And then once we figure that out, then we go, we individually have conversations with her and I'm like, I'm thinking this. So depending on what the neckline is doing. Like earlier, we talked about putting her hair up because she had high shoulders or just being down and playful. And then also having her have the freedom where she doesn't have to depend on us. I think so often black women, we feel like a slave to our hair. And that's something that is embedded in us when we are kids. right? We are a slave to the beauty industry. We have to go to the salon. We have to buy these products. We have to wrap our hair. We have to do this. We can't just jump in the pool. We can't just vacations and freedom isn't really free. And so the main thing is just making sure that she's able to be wherever she wants in the world and not have to feel that she has to have glam with her and that she can take care of herself. And it goes back to education and making sure that her hair is the healthiest that it needs to be. Yes. And so our collaboration process, like she says, said when she came in, she's just like, you got me out of braids. And I was like, just temporarily, but we're going to set you up so that when you leave, you're still able to maintain your hair. Michelle, are you having fun? It looks like you're having so much fun. We've seen the little buns, the two buns. We've seen all of the things like you're. Yeah, it is so much, it's,

it is freedom. It is, you know, I, I had fun in the White House. Don't get me wrong. And, you know, while I have a team, I've had a number of people in and out as part of the team, Johnny Wright, who trained Yenay. He's moved on. You know, there was my original stylist, Ronnie Flowers, who brought me into the White House in Jerry, who does braids because the beauty of Yenay is that she's not, she's not wetting me to her. If she, if I want to go into braids and she knows the best braider, she's going to get the best braider in. And I develop that relationship. So I think, you know, there's a generosity of spirit that goes into this team.

It's like this isn't my client and my thing, you know. Yane isn't the celebrity and the celebrity stylist, you know, because we really didn't, as I said, we weren't out front on hair. beauty. So I needed a team that was okay being in the background for eight, 10, 15 years until it's time to talk about it. So all of that made it always fun. And at the end, you know, all I said to my team, when I went into the White House, I said, I want to walk out here with my sanity, my kids in check, and my hair in my head. Yes. And that's the the thing that you have to worry about with different stylists, especially as black women, but I think all women go through this. I mean, I've heard this from friends of all nationalities.

You get somebody that doesn't know what they're doing to your hair, and the color is too harsh. It burns your hair out. Your hair dries out. You know, and that's, it seems like it is traumatizing to have somebody mess up your hair. You know? Yes, it grows back, but it feels like an assault. Right. You know, I mean, it's just sort of like, what did you do? And why did you do this? And if you didn't know what you were doing, why didn't you just say so? Right. Yeah. Right. I mean, all of us have experienced that, that, you know, that sort of trauma. I didn't have that, you know. Because you had your village. And was your village, I know we talked a little bit about this, you know, but like, was your village always? also supporting your mother and the girls in the White House. Oh, for sure. So you're very intentional about

all the ladies' hair, right? All the ladies' hair. Because there's also the difference, you know, I will say as Marseille, as when you were in the public eye, you can't have a bad hair day. And you were getting up at 4 o'clock in the morning, 4.30 to morning to work out? Oh, yeah. And then you would get up at 4.30 work out. I'd start hair and makeup, which we got down to an hour and half process because everybody is efficient too because I'm working. It's like we can't, you know, you can't take, I don't have an hour to give to a lot of prodding and heat and that sort of thing. But your hair was able, you talk about having. But this is we use protective styles.

We use extensions. We use wigs. Extensions. We used it all. And something that I wasn't used to coming out of a regular person's life where you just used your own hair. What was clear in the team was like, there's no way you can get your hair done every day, sometimes two, three times a day depending upon, did it rain, did you swim, did you, and have it stay in your head? And that's, you know, so what I realize is like, oh, the only way you do that is like you can't use your own hair.

I love that you say in the book, too, that you wanted it to look like your hair. Well, that was the other thing because it was about the independence, you know? Because I was like, well, what if you get sick? Right. What if you, you know, what if life happens? And now I'm in some long weave and I'm like, I don't know how to, I don't know what to do with this. Right, right. This isn't me.

Right. That's also the difference with me. I always had to look like me. Like that's the other thing. The team was like, I am not a celebrity. I am famous. I'm in the public eye. But I'm not Beyonce, you know.

And I don't. aren't, I mean, you're our political mom, Beyonce or something say. But to show up with hair down my back one minute and a snatched ponytail, that would detract. Not because it's me or because it's black hair, but if like every time I'm showing up, you know, it's the ponytail that's walking into the room

and it's not me. And the room shouldn't be looking just at me. It should be looking at the kids that I'm talking to. and it should be looking at, you know, so there was some level of, let's be consistent, you know. I'm not singing on the stage. I'm not, you know, whipping my hair back and forth. I'm actually in somebody's church. Right. Or I'm at a cemetery.

So it's like I have to look good, but like not. I'm in a school. I'm on the ground with four-year-olds. We're just reading. It should have just reading hair. Just reading. Just reading. It's all we're doing, is reading.

Nothing to see here. Not of us down. Right. Not a mess down. But I'm also curious around the maintenance of it all, right? Are there tips and tricks? Like, even just, like, beyond the philosophy of keeping our hair obviously looking good but healthy, like, what could, like, were there, like, things y'all were doing, like, in the White House that we need to know about?

Some magic going on. I think the biggest thing was transitioning her out of a relaxer. Okay. First thing first. And then the use of protective styling, the use of extensions, just realizing that the average person doesn't have to go into extensions. And one of the things that I always tell, when people come into the salon and they bring in inspiration of a celebrity,

I'm like, you don't have celebrity glam with you. Like, we're just going to have a wig on today and then I have a different wig on tomorrow, be they have someone else maintaining it. That's not realistic for you to maintain. Right. And so with Michelle, the thing was making sure that she was able to maintain it, but we were also able to maintain it in a way that if we were sick,

if someone wasn't available, that she can make herself look decent. So, again, it can't be too long. The texture had to match. Understanding can she tie it into a ponytail. So protective styles, using extensions, staying away from chemicals, and knowing that less is more. Well, and constant conditioning, right? I was going to say that you loved, like, did you deep condition? She steamed.

Every appointment. I love that. Come on with the steam. Every. We had a steamer. Every appointment. Every wash day. Every wash day. Every week. You did have a wash day. Every Sunday was washed day in the White House. Oh, yeah. With everyone. Mom, the girls. Well, mine varied. It wasn't Sunday because if I, whenever I had a down day.

Right. The girls, because they were in school and, you know, they would, Sundays tended to be their days. She was regular. She was regular. Grandma was, grandma was, grandma's want regular hair. She said. But she came to the salon. She was just like. I could just kind of the salon. We have a salon in the White House. Okay. So. Right.

Which is just a little room. It was like the kitchen of the White House. But still, I love that. It was my next to the kitchen too. Oh, Grandma. Yes. She was getting her nails done and her hair done on a regular basis. But I love this tip, steaming.

Because I feel like, look, I'm a beauty editor. I get it. Like, I've learned about steaming and how great that is. But it's something that you don't really think about doing at home all the time. You might do it when you're in the salon. But I love the fact that it's like, that was something that was non-negotiable in your hair routine. Non-negotiable.

Yeah. Moisture. Yeah. But wait, can we talk about the girls a little bit? I love how you were talking about how you were always, like, you know, loved on and poured into, and we can see that, like, Sasha and Malia were, that was done, at least from the outside looking in, and you've talked about it, you know, in your books of how much you loved on them and wanted them to have this, like, beautiful childhood, even in the public.

like I. But when it came to hair, too, I think it was so interesting that you were dealing with this respectability politics of, you know, straightening your hair and having in a certain way, but also you're raising these two young black girls. And like, it's almost like a do what I say, not what I do. Like, how are you pouring into them to say, you have to love your hair the way it grows out of your head, be proud of your blackness, all of that? But like, I've got to do this. Yeah, I mean, they never They never have had relaxers I think we

I think we did a henna once A character for And that didn't once And it was like No Not going back there And she was in twist Until she chose what to do with her hair

I mean she and Shosh Both have different hair textures Sasha's hair couldn't hold a twist. Malia's hair twisted up so nicely. And she had the cutest twist. And so she became a teenager and was like, I need something else. But I was fortunate because I had a team with me. So they understood the difference of my hair was work.

It was work hair. Right. Right. They didn't conflate that with, oh, mom doesn't love her natural hair. And she's doing this. Why doesn't she show her natural hair to the world? They could understand the nuance that I have to do this for work, but I want you to be able to be free. You're little girls and your girls and your hair is beautiful.

But they, you know, but we, because they grew up with almost their own little glam team, but it wasn't really glam, but they, you know, they saw so many different versions of beautiful and Jerry. who had dreads and Yane who changed her hair every other month. Come on. She's a hair girl. You know, they were surrounded by all different types of black women doing different things with their hair. Right. And generationally, thank goodness, you know, the Marseille, you guys are coming up with different messages, you know.

Right. They do see social media. They are, they, unlike us, they. They have Marseille. Right. You know, they have Yara. They have, they have so many, so many real-life examples of how different and beautiful we are. I mean, that's how far we've come.

Before we leave the White House and talking about your family, we had to talk about Mr. Obama and, like, how did he ever weigh in on your hair? Was he ever coming into the salon? Like, oh, that's cute. or like any, like, amazing reactions when you walked out and he was like, damn, yes. Our favorite times of sort of our rituals were state dinners, right? And I write about sort of that whole, because the state dinners were fun, right? Because it was the gown and the this and the that and the, you know, everybody would collaborate. And, you know, they were just a routine.

We'd have champagne and hors d'oeuvres for the team and we'd play music. And you'd just sort of get ready because it's special. It's a gas. And, you know, so we'd be getting ready in the salon, and I get hair, makeup done, then I'd go into my dressing room with Meredith, if we'd put on the gown, and nobody, he would never see it, right? And he'd be waiting in the cross hall when I came out into the gown right before we were getting on the elevator to go down for the official greet, and that's when he would see.

Everybody would, you know. There's a look. There's a look. Trispecta, everybody would come out and wait for him. It's like the first look in like a wedding or something. That's how it was. Again and again. Would you get butterflies?

Like, yeah, it would be exciting. It's like, what's he going to say? This is so cute. He's going to, you know, and I'd like out. We all used to get show for him. They all just sit around and watch him. And then we run to the TV to watch the actual arrival ceremony take place on TV to see like, how does it build?

But he was very much a man. Like, it's like, so what does this mean? You know, if there was a long train or something. something fashiony hanging off that he didn't understand. He'd be like, oh, is this supposed to be like this? You know, and it's like, dude, it's fashion. It's way above your pay grade. It's like, don't worry about it. You don't understand. You don't need to understand it. Right. Right. Just understand it's fashion. Yeah. And he obviously understood the reasons why you were wearing the hair in which you were wearing. It wasn't like he was like, no, Michelle, put the braids in, let the world know. Well, he is always

my, you know, he's like, you are beautiful no matter what you do. He's like, I don't even, I don't, I don't notice the difference in anything. So he has always been, is always, continues to be completely affirming. But he understands that women are different, that are our challenges, our struggles, the things we have to do. He has watched the three women in his life and his mother and his sisters. You know, he, and yeah, and his mother and law, you know, he sees the work that we're required to put in. He respects it. He understands it. But it, you know, sometimes he wonders, you know, do you have to do all that? And it's like, dude, this, this fashion is counting for at least one percentage approval waiting for you.

Right, right, right. You know, this gown, you know, somebody. Put some respect on the fact that me coming out here slaying. And looking this good is helping our situation. It's like value at it, dude. It's only value at it. I love that. When you would step out on red carpets, are you like, I don't know. Like, it's so interesting being a part of the public eye. Like that whole collaboration for you to go out there, how much of it also is like,

are you taking your hair into consideration, right? Because I think a lot of people is like, it's all about the gown. You go to the Met Gall and everyone's asking just about the clothing, right? Or going to red carpet. who are you wearing. But like, I always think it's so interesting as a beauty girl. I'm like, who did that hair? Look at those edges.

They're like swirl. Like, look at those braids. How much of your hair is like taken into consideration when you're like going out on the red carpet? Completely. I think just like we were talking about, it's the overall look that we, that we break down. I think it just, it only makes sense when if there, if there's a gown, or if there's a street wear kind of whatever, it has to fit.

It has to make sense. It's telling the overall story, not just that. And Marseille, do you have fun in it? Is it fun for you? I have fun. I have fun. I think that's like the triple Leo in me. Like, I have lots.

I'm a triple Leo. Oh, my goodness. I have lots of fun. You like to show up and show out. I like to show up and show out because that's just, I'm a visionary. I'm a creator. Like that's just what I like to do. And a storyteller.

Yeah. Like our hair. Like I love the history of our hair and even like braiding, right? And how we would braid routes to freedom into our hair. They would put rice in our hair so we would have food where we would. Like this like ancestral lineage of our hair is so like deep and like strong and amazing that like the fact that we can tell stories and everything we do. It's beautiful.

It tells a beautiful journey. And then I look at not just the pop culture inspirations, but I look at like Erica Badu. I look at Jill Scott. I look at the women who just exude, Janay Iko, just exude just a beautiful energy that also just transforms into their hair. And I'm like, wow. I think one, pop culture one, even Dochi. Dochi has been killing it recently. Oh, my gosh.

the overall look, you know? Remember, was it Saturday Night Live when she did the performance and her and all of her dancers were connected with the brain? I think that was Stephen Colbert. I think it was like, yeah, a late night show. So amazing.

They were moving and dancing with their hair connected to each other. Yeah. Dope. And that's what you mean by like just the overall story that you're telling. It's not just one part of it. It's everything that pulls it all together.

So, yeah, I definitely think about it all the time. From your vantage point, do you see movement when it comes to growth in terms of how first we as women of color view ourselves and how the world sees us? I'm just curious about what you're seeing in the culture. Absolutely. I mean, I think because we live in our phones, because we live in social media, it allows us to curate to what we see and what we're taking in and the inspiration of that all. And we're allowed to, I mean, I work for a publication, but I really do find inspiration on like following folks because they're allowed to storytell and tell the world that we're

beautiful and look at all the ways in which we're beautiful. We're obviously not a monolith. I have a belief that, you know, there was a few years back we were having this whole like, are you natural, are you not? that whole like internal beef. And I was like, whatever. We are magical, whether I'm giving you a 23-inch bus down. That's right.

Or if I have a sky-high afro. Like, it's so amazing that we can create that narrative without, sure, there's going to be input and trolls and that sort of thing. But you can kind of zone it out. And the fact that I get to be a storyteller and, like, put the people in the magazines that you didn't see, Michelle, growing up. Like, that is, I know that that is part of my power. I might not have a lot of money and fame and all of that, but I'm very intentional when I'm writing.

I mean, I have a column called Yours, Mine, Ours in Cosmo, the biggest young woman's media brand in the world, which is an intersection between black culture and beauty. And so I get to be very black, black, black, black, black, all the time and tell our stories, right? Yeah. So, like, that for me is really magical. And I am a half-class. glassful girl. So I do believe we're getting better and we're taking it upon ourselves. I mean, black women, like, come on, we can do anything. We are the creators of our own narrative and story. And so the fact that I get to be a part of that lineage is like amazing. But we're all doing it, which I love. And I just love that our hair gets to be part of that story. telling you. I just, yeah, I just want us to get to the point where it's all, all right.

Yeah. You know. We're getting there. Yeah, that the choices that we make for ourselves, whether it's, like you said, natural extensions, what is it called, the beat down? The bus down. The bus down. Okay. I just got that. That's new. That's new. Yes. She don't do buss down. We're not. Look, straight back, like, whatever we want. You talk about, like, wearing shirt down. straight backs. And it's like that, all of that is not like, it's professional. It's beautiful.

It's all of the things that the world sometimes wants us to think it's not. And it is. And we get to be the ones to say, quiet that all down. Yeah. We're beautiful. We're doing it. You eat, please. Eat it up.

Yeah. Because. And then this point in time when it feels like there's potentially an assault on diversity, I think it becomes more important for us to not let the, not to lose ground on this. You know, and, you know, for the listeners of all races out there, you know, what I implore you to do for this generation of girls of all colors is that we under, that we understand that it's up to all of us to help all of our girls or women feel. beautiful just like they are. And that means how they go to school, when you see them on the bus,

when they are your co-workers sitting with you, you know, just remember the little biases in your head that may make you think that who they are is somehow different or giving off some message that it's not. You know, our hair is really not a message of anything, except this is just who we are, maybe just today. Yes. Maybe just for this one moment. How much time we had this morning? How much time we had today?

We are more likely than not trying to tell you anything other than, you know, this is what we could make happen for ourselves at this moment. Yeah. You know, and we're going to need, in this time, we're going to need a country of fellow women, a world of fellow women who get this, you know, and stand with us on this. And I think that'll help this next generation of little babies coming up, you know, feel good in their skin. Like, the difference between when I was growing up and when you were growing up, when you were growing up in my say, just listening to you, being in the industry, being in D.C., it's a little different for me.

But listening to you and you're just saying how, well, I just kind of did what I wanted. And being under the public eye, you're just, you're already seeing. how much progress we've made. Although at times I do feel like, it's like, man, we still got to fight this fight. We still, like, I have clients that come in the salon and still say like, I'm going for an interview. Maybe I should straighten my hair.

And I'm like, no, you don't have to straighten your hair. And can you just talk a minute about the Crown Act? Yeah. Just so for people who aren't aware? Crown Act protects women of color with textured hair against race, hair-based discrimination in the work place in the school place, locks, afros, any type of knots of any sort in its past in only 28 states

as of July of this year, 2025. And it's extremely important because I don't think people realize how much pressure it is on women of color of how they go into the workplace and how they are perceived. And you hear stories, even when it comes down into the military. military of protocols of how we are, how military personnel are allowed to wear their hair and in the workplace how they're allowed to wear their hair. So the Crown Act is really not just talking about race, hair-based discrimination, but it's also about education. So you were talking about Aroxene, being able to have someone on set that knows your hair texture, that is not the norm. Yeah. Today, still in 2025. And so it also is going into teaching texture education

in cosmetology schools, which is extremely important as well. Absolutely. It's so important. I really hope it gets passed federally because going state by state is one thing, but if we could just make this a sweeping law that you cannot discriminate against textured, hair, protective styles, I mean, remember the young boy in Jersey who was a wrestler and he had to cut his locks right there or forfeit his match? It's those sorts of things that are something we don't, we shouldn't have to think about. Again, it goes back to the idea of freedom. And we've talked about that a lot in this. Freedom of our styles, freedom for you to be able to move how you want to move without your team.

Like freedom for our children to grow up and to be able to have whatever hairstyle they want and not feel like they, you know, they have to conform, being able to go into an interview and wear your hair a certain way. Like, we shouldn't have to be doing this mental gymnastics around our hair just to live and thrive. Well, and also the financial and chemical gymnastics. We're going to get there, y'all. We're going to get there. All together. All together.

We're like all doing. We're all doing our cars. Do a little dochy. I love a dance. Do a little bit. But like it just brings us. Do we all connect our hair right now? But, like, this is a great way to wrap it up.

I could talk to you guys for hours and hours about this. I just feel like hair is just such this beautiful connector of all of us. And, like, you guys wear your crowns so beautifully. Thank you so much for allowing this conversation so that the world can hear, like, how we think about our hair and celebrate it and how the world should celebrate it. And we're going to keep doing our part and, like, tell them. the stories and doing the things, and there is going to be real change. I feel it. I mean, it's already started. It's already written. It's already written. Let's just keep these

conversations going. Yes. And all the kitchen tables all throughout the land. Thank you all. Thank you guys. You guys amazing.