IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Move Through the Hard Times with Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson

Episode Date: July 29, 2026

Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson joins Michelle and Craig to talk through her life before taking the bench. She opens up about past relationship struggles, gaining confidence in her work and balancing her career with early motherhood. Plus, she shares the romantic comedy-worthy story of how she met her husband.Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You said you were in a production with Matt Damon? I was not in a production. I was in a class. I was in a class with Matt Damon. So at that point, he was already into community theater. He was kind of known on campus as someone who wanted to be an actor. So I took a drama class, just a regular credit class. And he happened to be in it.

And then for one scene, the professor paired me with him. And it was something like waiting for Godot. It was like a boring play. Yeah, yeah. But we did this scene. And at the end, the professor was like, Katanji, you were so good. Matt, we'll talk. What's up?

Hi, Craig. Nice suit. We have a special guest, so I wanted to kind of show up, like, I mean, business. And make me feel underdressed. I know, I should have called you. You should have let me know. And I, boy, put on a jacket. But that's cute.

That's very non. Yeah, that's just what I want to be. in front of the Supreme Court Justice is cute. Just very cute. Yeah, but you know, you did your best. How's it going? How's life? Life's good.

Life is really good. Yeah. Where are you staying? I'm staying in the Hollywood Hills, so not far from here. Okay. I have a real nice Airbnb. It's like what I like about this one's got a lot of outdoor family space. I mean, really?

There are balconies off of almost every room, and then it's got a huge sort of patio. Oh, that's cool. It's really neat. So you're not rambling around there, lonely. Yeah, hearing an echo because I'm the only one in a four-bedroom place. So it's really nice, and it's in a really good neighborhood. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And it just reminded me why people, a good reason why people open their homes up and have them on Airbnb so that you can show off your neighborhood and walk around the Hollywood Hills. Is that what people, you think that the family that owns this house wants you to know the- Well, I think they want a little extra cash. Yeah, that's what I was wondering. It's in a really cool. It's a really cool neighborhood. And I'm not in the steep part so I can walk around.

Did you go for a while? Not yet. Not yet. Okay. I've been working. I plan to. You know, you woke up this morning. Because it is, it is, well, I had a meeting this morning, so I was up early.

But if I didn't have a meeting, it's close enough to Laurel Canyon Road where you can walk down, you can walk down there. And then you're back in civilization. So with shops, and if you wanted to walk and get your morning coffee, you could. I could. I think you should do that tomorrow and tell me all about it. I might do that. Well, I think we should get to it. We, you know, I mean, it feels like we're.

We're becoming a big girl and boy podcast. I know. This is, this is. With our guests today. It's like we're, we're elevating ourselves. We are. I, you have probably met Justice Katanji Brown Jackson, but I have never met her. And it, she doesn't seem like a Supreme Court justice.

She's so delightful. That's a big diss to the others that you don't know. Well, I haven't met any. So this is the. first one. But she gives you an air of delight unlike the others. Well, no, I wasn't going to say that, but you see how, see, that's what Misha does. She puts words in my mouth and then I end up being scolded on social media. No, but I'm really excited about our discussion because I just can't wait to talk about her life. Yeah, it's not often that people get access to a sitting Supreme Court justice.

I know. How did we get so lucky? Oh, man, I don't know. Just born that way. Well, let's give her proper introduction and let's get this conversation start. Okay. So, Justice Katanji Brown Jackson is an associate justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, confirmed in 2022 as the first African-American woman to serve on the court. And she is the author of The Lonely One, which we have here,

The lovely one. See, I'm so nervous. Yeah, just settle down. I mean, you're shaking a little bit. I know, I know. I'm really excited. Justice Jackson, please come join us before I. You've got my brother all shook. Thank you.

Thank you so much for being here. Welcome to IMO. This is wonderful. Yes, I'm perfect. Oh, my goodness. Well, it is really, really an honor. Thank you. You know, just for our listeners and viewers, we've met on several occasions.

But we have never had, you know, the real time to just check in and be. So I'm sorry that we're doing this, you know, on television. I'm delighted to be here. But you also, you've got the young adults version of lovely one coming out. Congratulations. It's out. It's out. I am so proud of it being able to give a younger audience a chance to check in with my story. I think it will be great. What I get out of your memoir is at a young age, you are really, should I say, competitive, driven. I mean, like, you know, it comes out. Well, I do think that I saw that pretty early on. I mentioned that my parents were public school teachers, but when I was three years old, my dad decided to go to law school. And that's not, you know, something that happens every day.

No. Someone who has a small kid decides to go to school. And some of my earliest memories are of sitting at the kitchen table on the University of Miami campus, which is where my dad went to law school. And my dad has his law books all stacked up. And I have my coloring books. all stacked up. And we worked together. And so from that young, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer because I thought that's what you did. But watching him study, watching him strive and say, this is something that I want to do, I think really formed me early on as someone who was going to continue to try to improve myself through education and be a lawyer and maybe even become a judge. You know, those sorts of ideas, I think, were planted very early. And then I had the really wonderful opportunity to go to a big public high school in South Florida. But we had a fabulous debate team.

And my debate coach was an extraordinary mentor for me. And she just believed in me. She just believed in me. And doing speech and debate, I think, was really the beginning of my, you know, You say competitive spirit because it was a competitive event. And I tell people now, you know, if you want your kids to be resilient, to understand how to deal with failure, to develop the kind of spirit of perseverance that it's going to take to be really successful,

you should have them do something competitive when they're young. Get them into some kind of, whether it's sports or a debate or something, it's very helpful, in my opinion, to form the right. mindset to succeed later on. In my opinion, too. I know. You're a big sports guy. One thing I wanted to ask, what was it like being the smart kid in your family and in your

community? Very lonely. I mean, I was president of my high school class, big class, 750 kids. And on the debate team, very, very successful. So I was popular. But just not in. the way that resulted in any

dates or prom invitations. And so it was lonely in that sense. And that was something that I had to overcome. And actually played itself out in my eventual

courtship and dating my husband because he actually was my first boyfriend. We don't talk about that. Oh, okay. Okay. We don't talk about that. We met in college, and that was really my very first time dating anyone. Your first date was in college. I thought I was bad.

Yes, sir. Well, he was always in the gym. Wow. But this is, you know, I mean, I like you, and I want to talk about your Harvard experience, one of the reasons I got through Princeton, he was there and he was good ballast for me, but we were there only two years. But it was because of that community of kids who were. who were like me.

Absolutely. Right? Absolutely. And I always try to make this point. It's like you don't do kids of color service by plucking them out and making them one of a few. Yes. And then scattering them about the campus. I think that's absolutely right.

And it describes more of my high school experience, even though I was popular. Yeah. Yeah. Then it did my college experience, which I loved. Yeah. I loved because at the time, that I went to Harvard, which we're contemporaries in terms of the timing of it, there was a sizable black community on campus.

And it was like I found my people in a sense, you know, the people who had similar life experiences and backgrounds that I had where you could feel totally comfortable being yourself. And my roommates and I, and I talk a lot in the book about them, I roomed with five other black women. And there were six of us on campus. And then we were within this larger community. And it was just amazing.

It was amazing. Because you experienced homesickness. You know, as smart of a student as you were, leaving home and going to a college setting in Harvard and Princeton, these schools, these elite schools with systems of education that are still, somewhat different. Yes. You know, it takes a minute to adjust to living on your own. It takes a minute to adjust. You know, I got to Princeton and I realized that, you know, I'm going to school with a bunch of kids who went to college preparatory schools, the chotes and the exeter's of the world. And I'm like, oh, wow, you did this already. You've been living this life for the last three, four years. And I'm just showing up, and you already took this course. You read these books. You did this thing that I didn't get in my little public high school

on the south side of Chicago. And it was a very sobering. Sobering thought. You know, I came from Florida, very different cultural environment anyway. And then to meet the kinds of students that you're talking about who were in some ways that much farther ahead because they had not only grown up or been in the New England environment, so had already adjusted to that way of being, but also had a prep school kind of background, was very daunting, especially at the beginning. And I think the thing that really saved me was a couple of things. You know, I certainly tried to keep and did keep the connection to home. My mother and my aunt, they used to write me letters, so I'd get these letters from home in a way that was very important.

And also, doing well in my very first set of classes. Oh, my God, I had the same experience. Did you have that, really? No, please. Yes, yes, yes. No, I mean, once you get there and you are able to show and demonstrate to yourself, that you have the ability, even though there are others who have different advanced, than you do. I think that is a really important significant step. And so in my first semester,

I took a class called Justice, which I loved. And I was on legal and political philosophy. Very interesting, big class. It was in the large theater. And I was always too intimidated to say anything. Oh my God. Yeah. For classroom participation. I never spoke. But I took notes and I talk to the teaching fellows and I really love the class. And I had to write a paper in my expository writing class about an experience as a first year on campus. And what I wrote about was the experience of being injustice in this big class. And so I reflected on the class and then I did well in the class.

And I think that was really the launching pad for me. I said, okay, I'm from this big public high school in a totally different place, but look, you know, I did well in this class and it really made me feel. So what about you? What was your class? I mean, it was the same thing. I mean, I had my brother, but he was a big jock, you know. He was the big man on campus, star basketball player. What are you about to say?

No, I wasn't going to say anything. You were about to deny it? No, I was not. I was Craig Robinson's little sister. So. You know, I knew that, you know, at least I had him to say, you know, I was always the more focused student than he was. She was a better student than I was. You know, but he got into Princeton.

You did not get into Princeton on athletics. Of course. You have to get in there on academics. But when you see your brother do it, you know, there's a part of me that's like, I'm pretty sure I can do this. She's being really nice. She's being really nice. Mich knew how to study from a young, young age. I did well taking tests.

That's how I got into everything. I just had a knack for taking tests, but I didn't study. So my first experience, to hijacking your story, but my first experience at Princeton, I took the wrong courses. I took chemistry, physics, At the beginning? At the beginning? Yes. And chemistry, physics, economics, and calculus.

Because I was going to be an engineer, but I wasn't prepared. And he was on the varsity team. And I was playing basketball. He was a freshman. You were on varsity. It's a freshman. And I almost failed out of school. And I called my dad, Mr. Chill, Mr. Calm. And there were no 100-level courses at Princeton for these in math and science.

It was bad counseling. and I forgive my counselor for this. I don't. For putting me in these courses. That's terrible. That's part of the experience I had. Yes. Not knowing what courses to take.

Yes. It was malpracticing. And so my end of my first semester, I got two Cs of D and F. Those were the lowest grades I've ever gotten in my whole life. And I call my dad in tears. I'm in over my head. I shouldn't have come here. Oh, no.

I got to get out of here. I'm going to fail. Oh, no. And this is a guy who did not go to college, has MS, working for the city of Chicago, and he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, relax, relax. Now tell me about this again and what courses are you taking? And he goes through this whole thing. And I'm like, he doesn't know what he's doing, right?

And he said, the final thing he said, how many people are in that school? And they said, I said, 4,000, but what does I have to do through tears? I'm like, it threw tears. And he said, well, that means there's a thousand guys. guys in a class, a thousand people in the class. Yes. And he said, okay, we've figured out you're not going to be number one in the class, but you're not going to be number one thousand.

And it hit me as like, it's no way I'm going to be number one thousand. He's like, just get out of those courses. Yeah. Take something that you're interested in. And to your point, as soon as I did that and had some academic success, I felt intellectually able to compete. Yes. And it changed my whole view of the whole process.

And it made me a better everything, better person, better player. Yes. But a better combatant in the classroom. Right. Because you believed in yourself at that point. And I was just on the wrong path. Mish, you know how much. much I love sardines. Yeah, and I don't know why I know so much about why you love sardines.

But I'm actually proud to say, I've got some converts now. Our producers, and even some of our listeners have written in and said they're fans too. So I was scrolling through social media and found this amazing recipe for sardine pasta with linguine, capers, parmesan, olive oil. Be honest. If I whip that up for you, would you at least give it a try? Look, if you cooked anything for me, I would give it a try. But that recipe doesn't sound bad. I am among the sardine lovers. I grew up in the same household. So I love sardines and that the salty taste. I can see where it's, it could be a treat. So if you cooking, I'm eating. Good. That's good to hear. But you know. But you know. No, people are never neutral on sardines.

You either love them or you hate them. Kind of like beats. Yeah. But honestly, the game changer for me was how easy it is to just stock up. Whenever I'm back from practice and craving them without wanting to leave the house, I just pull up shipped for same-day delivery. It's a total lifesaver. Wait, wait, Mish.

What? Are you judging me right now? No, I mean, I don't know why you're so into sardines, but no judgment here. No, but in all seriousness, ship really has been convenient in those moments, or even when I'd rather be using brain space on something other than a grocery list. And I love how particular they can be. Shoppers with ship are hypervigilant, putting in the effort that I would at the grocery store. They communicate with you while they shop. Check in if something's unavailable. and really pay attention to the details. One time I asked for avocados that would be right by that following weekend, and they nailed it.

I have shipped to thank for my gua. With shipped, you can order same-day delivery on everything you need from a variety of stores, including retailers like Safeway, Albertsons, Michaels, Target, and PetSmart, as well as local grocery stores exclusive to your area. Get a $49 annual membership with promo code podcast at shipped.com slash offer. That's shipt.com slash offer. Terms apply. So when was it that you were thinking in your mind?

Not that I'm just going to be an attorney or a lawyer, but I'm going to be a judge. Oh, I remember thinking that when I got introduced to Constance Baker Motley. And I don't mean introduced in person. I mean, I was in middle school and I learned about her because of all things, we share a birthday. We were both born on September 14th, 49 years to the day apart. And I was reading some article probably in one of the few magazines that my parents allowed, Jet or Ebony or Essence, right? about, you know, famous people with birthdays in September. And I said, this woman has my birthday.

And she, Constance Baker-Motley, was the first African-American woman to be appointed to the federal bench. And she had been one of Justice Thurgood Marshall when he was a lawyer, one of his protégés and in his group of counsel. And she was a civil rights lawyer who had argued cases all through the South and in the Supreme Court. She was the first black woman to argue in the Supreme Court. And she argued something like 10 cases and she won nine of them. And she was extraordinary. And President Johnson put her on the bench in the mid-1960s. So when I'm in middle school, there's this black woman who is a federal judge.

And I had wanted to be a lawyer, but she shared my birthday. And I figured maybe I can be a judge. And then around at the same time, Justice O'Connor gets appointed to the Supreme Court. And I remember that. It was a huge deal to have a woman appointed to the Supreme Court. So it was like then that I had this idea that I wanted to be on the Supreme Court. And when I applied to college, I wrote in my essay to Harvard that you really have to accept me because I would like to be the, I think it will help me with my.

dream of being the first black female Supreme Court justice to appear on a Broadway stage. That was the line. That's crazy. It was crazy. But they were compelled, apparently. Well, this is different. She stands out. Way to make yourself stand out.

So, and so it's happened. It has happened. Yes. So I get on the court. Talk about manifestation. young people. You can do anything you want. You know, I got on the court and the producers of a Broadway show, I put this in the book,

and they read the book, and they called me up, and they said, you've done the first part, we can help you with the second part. Do you want to be in our show? And I said, sure. And, you know, and just to make us all mad, in addition to being so smart and accomplishment, you can sing and accomplish. You have a beautiful voice. I can sing, which I'd be very happy to.

That doesn't seem fair. Well, I will tell you, I am very grateful for all the many talents. And it's so much fun. Yeah. Did you do theater? I can't remember in the book. Did you do it at Harvard? So I did it at Harvard.

Yeah. So there were some events in speech and debate. I was on the speech side of speech and debate. Oratory was my primary event in high school, which is where you write your own speech and deliver it. And then in college, I shifted completely from speech and debate and just did. And I did, I guess you say, I sing. My big moment in college was I played Billy Holiday in a cabaret about her.

Lady sings the blues. And I practiced her intonations and in kid. It was fabulous. It was so fun. And you said you were in a production. with Matt Damon? I was not in a production. I was in a class.

I was in a class with Matt Damon. So at that point, he was already into community theater. He was kind of known on campus as someone who wanted to be an actor. So I took a drama class, just a regular credit class. And he happened to be in it. And then for one scene, the professor paired me with him. And it was something like waiting for Godot, like a boring play. Yeah, yeah.

But we did this scene. And at the end, the professor was like, Katanji, you were so good. Matt, we'll talk. And I was like, I was better than Matt Damon. I was better than Ben David. Have you ever, has he heard that story? I don't know. I'm sure he hears that because you were better than him.

And I bet he'll never hear that from Justice Roberts. Matt Damon, you wrote better than Justice Jackson. No, it was so funny. Justice Jackson, you had all the chops. You actor, you know, great order, beautiful voice. Why? Why on earth? Did you go to law school?

You know, I had always, always wanted to be a lawyer. I thought it was the highest and best use of my time and talent. My parents raised me to be a public. servant. They were public servants. My dad, as I said, went to law school, but then he ended his career as the school board attorney for the Miami-Dade County School Board. So they were always, my mother was the principal for the school for the arts public service in our blood. I never really thought of doing something professionally other than going to law school, being in a position to make the arguments and do the things that I thought were necessary to advance our country with all of the

issues that we are facing. Okay. That sounds noble and true. But I still have fun. I still have fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we'll get to that. You have fun and you had love.

I had love. So you met your husband at Harvard. I met Patrick. First of all, let me just say, he's cute. Oh, thank you. It's super sweet. He's super sweet. Oh, and your love story is just so.

I mean, it's like way to have the best story, love story, and not have had a boyfriend. It was extraordinary. God just said, you need a good one. And he gave me what. I mean, I honestly had decided after high school that I probably would not find anyone. I probably would not marry that it was going to be. be enough for me to just be professionally successful and doing what I'm doing. So I was not looking for any kind of. You weren't manifesting. You didn't put that in your college. I did not. I did not.

And I went to this class. Patrick, we met in college and he is a year ahead of me. Okay. And so he was a junior and I was a sophomore. And he was a sociology major, even though he was pre-med. So he had to take the core courses around that. You were so major. Oh, yeah. We both were. You love sociology. And there was the sociology core basic course called the changing concept of race in America. And so I took it. A lot of black people took it. Patrick, my husband, who is not black, took it. White boy in a class. Like, look down there. Wouldn't you know? Was he raising his hand? Did he have things to say? He was not raising his hand. He was sitting behind me, tapping on my shoulders. trying to talk to me. Okay, player? Yes. He was trying to talk to me.

So I would look back and I was like, who is this guy? Why is he doing that? And I didn't know what it looked like to have somebody flirt with you and like you. I honestly did not. Oh, right. So I just thought this is kind of weird. I thought he was kind of cute and I did like him. So after about maybe two or three weeks of the class, I noticed that he is very talkative in this way and very flirty. In this. class, like three days a week we had this class. And then I would see him on the other days, you know, we had this class Monday, Wednesday, Friday on Tuesday and Thursday, I would see him in a government class because I was a government major. And he wouldn't talk to me at all. It's like, oh, no, you didn't. Not at all. Don't be talking to me in the black class. Exactly. See me outside of the black class and you don't know me. You tap it on my shoulder. And my roommates, I raised this with them and they're like, leave him alone.

It's crazy. Don't have anything to do with him. This is the black girl posse. Yes. They were like, okay, no. No. Uh-uh. So I said, you know what?

I'm going to confront him on one of the friendly days. Way to go. On the friendly day. So on one of the days where he's talking to me, I said, listen, why don't you talk to me in our government class? And he says, I'm not taking a government class. I try to wave to you. You don't say anything?

And he says, oh, you must be talking about. my identical twin brother. That's crazy. Because he has an identical twin brother. That should have come to his mind first. Really? I will give you the excuse. And why do his brother kind of say?

Here's the reason. It's so interesting. We talked about the prep school kids. They grew up in Boston. They went to separate prep schools and private schools from when they were in kindergarten. Okay. So they weren't used to be in together. boarding schools all through and just were not used to.

They had their separate friends and separate and no one ever mixed them up. And Harvard was the first time when they came back since kindergarten and were in the same school environment. So people would mix them up all the time. People would mix them up all the time and they would not think. They would not think to say. And so once we cleared that up, which was a little something at the beginning, it was we were Off to the races. Something I love about the age of the internet is how many of my friends are now able to build their own businesses online.

I know people who started by selling a few things out of their garage, looking at you, Kelly, and also friends who turn their side hustles into full-time businesses. Across the board, they all rave about Shopify. If you've been tuning in, you've definitely heard me talk about Shopify. Shopify gives you all the tools to build your store, manage customers, and grow your businesses without feeling overwhelmed. And now Shopify is offering sidekick, which is basically an AI co-founder. It can help with things like analyzing sales trends, creating promotions, and handling a lot of behind-the-scenes work so entrepreneurs can spend more time focusing on growth, creativity, and building something they're proud of. Serious about starting your own thing, start your free trial at shopify.com slash IMO.

One of my favorite things about summer is that cooking gets simpler. You don't need a complicated recipe when you've got great ingredients. Give me fresh corn, ripe tomatoes, watermelon, something on the grill, and I'm happy. The challenge is actually finding time to get everything you need and when you need it. Summer weekends have a way of filling up fast, and I'd rather spend that. time cooking and hanging out with my family, then running errands. That's why I've been using Instacart. If I'm making a big salad, grilling vegetables, or putting together one of those meals where the ingredients really need to be at their best, I love being able to get exactly what I need

from the stores I already shop. I can even message my shopper if I need tomatoes that are perfectly ripe for tonight or avocados that are ready to go. And when recipe inspiration strikes at the last minute, delivery through Instacart can happen in as fast as 30 minutes. Instacart brings convenience, quality, and ease right to your door so you can focus on what matters most. Download the Instacart app now and get groceries just how you like. This back-to-school season, spend less on your kids with Amazon. You know, one thing nobody prepares you for when you have kids is how quickly they go through school supplies. I cannot imagine when I was growing up going through backpacks as quickly as my kids do nowadays.

But somehow, once a year, it's back to the store we go, or to two stores, or three. Not to mention how fast it all just manages to disappear. The school year isn't half over, and somehow we're out of pencils, erasers, notebooks, and 30 other things. That's why I really appreciate Amazon during the back-to-school season. Whether you're shopping for school supplies, backpacks, lunch gear, clothes, or all those last-minute items that I know you don't want to be running around for, Amazon has it all. You can compare brands instantly and read reviews knowing that what you buy will actually last.

Basically, Amazon makes it easy to get what you need and get back to your life. So, remember, with Amazon's low back-to-school prices, just spend less on your kids. kids because every dollar you don't spend on them is a dollar you haven't spent on them. This was at the beginning of that of my sophomore year. We didn't start dating until the last day of my sophomore year. But we were friends and he in fact dated another girl during this time. And then that really solidified for me that he did not like me. You know, we were just friends.

Then they broke up. And then he was from the Boston area. And his family has a house. on the Cape. They're rich. I'm just helping the story along. He is a Boston Brahmin. So,

wait, what's a Brahmin? A Brahmin is like this group of people who have been here since the Mayflower who can like, trace their families back to that time. So he's

he's seventh, sixth or seventh generation Harvard. Generation Harvard. Yeah. He's one of the... Holy. So, but really cool. Yeah. Really cool.

He's in the sociology class. Clearly. Clearly. He's cool. We go give him that. So he says to me, the day before the last day, I'm about to go home to Florida for the summer. He says, you know, do you want to go to the Cape and see my family's Cape house that I've been telling you all about? And I said, okay, sure.

And he goes to his family's house. He gets the car. He picks me up. we're driving and I remember sitting in the car going, is this a date? I wonder if this is a date. I don't know if Justice Jackson's like, I've never been on one. I've never been on one.

So I don't know if this is how it goes. You're just getting the car with the guy. I hope so because he was cute and he invited me. So we go to this Cape House and it's closed because it hasn't opened yet for the summer. It's kind of cold. Because you learn that about summer houses. Yes, you do.

We don't know about that. I don't know anything about it. And it's like, you got another house. And it's not closed. Why would the door be closed? It was closed. Exactly. So we go to this house and we're walking around and he's showing me and the house is actually on a private island. It's like a whole thing.

Did you have to take a ferry to get there? There's a one lane little bridge that goes over. But there's seven houses on this island. You didn't have any of that. Get out. No. No, but so we're walking around and he's showing me. We're down by the water and it's all great.

nothing happens. He doesn't try to hold my hand. He doesn't try to. We're by ourselves the whole day. By the end of it, I am furious. Furious. It's like you wasted my time. I was like, I thought this was a date. I thought you liked me. Obviously you don't. I just want to go home. And he says, my family lives in Dedham, which is not too far from Cambridge. Why don't I take you there and I'll make dinner. And then I'll take you back to the dorm and you can finish packing. I say, whatever. Because I was like, freeze. So we go to his house and his parents are there and they're very lovely and he makes spaghetti or something for dinner. And then he says, well, why don't we watch a movie? And then after the movie, I'll take you home. And I was like, fine.

So we go to the dead and we sit down. And I'm just thinking, I'm so humiliated. What was the movie? The movie was Al Pacino's Sea of Love. And we're sitting there and he turns off the live. lights and we're sitting and I'm just very, very annoyed. And he does one of these things. Okay.

And I'm like... Patrick making a move. I jump up and I say no because I had convinced myself that he did not like me. Oh, you didn't say that to him. It was saying that in your head. No, I said no to him. No, but all the she was mad, you were having to have. The other stuff.

The mad stuff was in my head because I figured he had a whole day. to show some affection. He had not done so. And so he was now just trying to take advantage of me as far as I was concerned. I was like, this is crazy. So I jumped up and I said, no. And he said, what's wrong? And he stood up.

And I said, I just don't want to be hurt. And he said, Katanji, I will never hurt you. I love you. Whoa. I know. And I was like. And the crowd goes silent. And there.

are tears. I was like... And then the music plays. I was, I mean, it was, I was shocked because I really, I'd never had a relationship. I didn't think he liked me. I liked him so much, but this was a disaster. Yeah. And then he told me he loved me. And it was, so from that, on our first day. So from that day, but they had been thrilled. So from that point, until we got married,

six and a half years, through his medical school, through my law school, we date. and then got engaged. He's a doctor, too, y'all. So we got married six and a half. And we've been married now. In October, it will be 13 years. Oh, wow. It's such a beautiful, beautiful story.

That's almost as good as our story. So one of the big brother, so what did your brother and your dad say? I bring him home. Okay. The summer after he graduates. Guess who's coming to dinner. And my brother was a little eyebrows up. Like, what was this person?

He talks, my brother talks about how he thought, this is strange that my daughter is, you know, dating this guy. But he learned very quickly how devoted he was to me. And my dad as well, you know, when we got married, Patrick, he comes from a very traditional family. I come from a very traditional family. So he actually made arrangements to fly down to Florida to ask my parents for my hand in marriage and did so without my knowledge. I didn't know he was doing this. And so he tells a story about how he sat down with them in the den and said, I've been dating her daughter for six years, as you know. And I'm really interested in asking her to marry me.

And my dad was like, well. You know, back when I was in the Black Power movement, you would not have been caught dead in my house. Right. Not to mention, you know, asking for my daughter's hand. My one and only. He said, but I see how you have treated her. I know that you love her. And my mother said, I have two questions, two questions.

Do you believe in God? And do you love my daughter? Yeah. And he answered both of them in the affirmative. and she said, you have my blessing. What about your brother? My brother. My brother was on board by this dad.

Okay. My brother was on board. And your families have blended. You know, you write about how well-received his family has been of you and supportive in the same way. They're wonderful. You know, just want to get that on the record, too. They're wonderful. But so here you guys are two hard drivers.

You are going to be the first Black Supreme Court justice, and he's going to be some neurosurgeon, you know. General surgeon. General surgeon, which means the structures of the abdomen. People don't know that. All the other... I didn't know that. Yeah. All the other sort of specialties are parts of the body.

And when you say I'm a general surgeon, it means the gut essentially. Oh, my goodness. So he does a lot of those operations. But he's cutting people open. and doing really hard things in life, which requires focus and attention, right? So talk about how you two together have managed building a family with the stresses, the absences that had to occur. I mean, you know, probably like me and Barack, you know, Barack's running for office.

He's in state senate. He's in the U.S. Senate. You know, we're building a family. at a time when we're basically commuting, you know, and I've got my career and he's got his and how do you weave those paths together? Can you talk about the good and the bad times of it? It was very, very challenging. I cover some of it, you know, in the memoir. It's, I think one thing that was helpful for us is that we met in college. We were with each other through our respective graduate schools. So we both knew that our careers and our professions were very important to us.

And I think that helped me to be patient when he was on call, which was a lot. You know, going through residency. The medical training program, especially for surgery, is very long and very intense. He trained at the Mass General, which is one of the top surgical programs in the country and a very demanding one. and he was there when we had our first daughter. So I had to actually, I clerked for the Supreme Court. He had taken some time off to come down to D.C. while I was clerking. And then I took, basically went back to Boston because he had to finish his residency at the Mass General and had our first child. And I'm in a law firm and he is a resident and we have an infant.

And it was very tough early on. I think we managed it in part. because we tried to take turns with whose career needed the most attention at the time. So when he was a resident, I just went into a regular law firm, even though I knew I wasn't going to do law firm work long term. Oh, my God. And the way you talk about law firm work, I was like, girl, I'm sorry, Justice Jackson. You remember this. I remember this the way you described the hardship and the culture.

Yes. And billable hours. Bilibble hours. And trying to breastfeed and keep up with your billable hours and talk more about that. No, it was so challenging. I had an infant. My husband was a surgical resident. So he was basically absent.

We had to have a nanny, obviously, in order to manage childcare during this time. And I remember that because my husband's hours were so unpredictable, he could never relieve the nanny. And the stress of that, because the nanny is working on hours. She's there for eight hours max in the day. You don't want your nanny working for more than that because she's caring for your child. And so you have to really be on top of it. But that meant I was the one who at five o'clock every day had to say to whatever partner I was working with or whatever. I'm so sorry, but I need to go because I have to take the train to where my car is and take my car.

It was like a 45-minute commute to get home. And I had to leave the nanny by 6 o'clock because my husband would never do that. And the pressure on me as someone who had really prided myself in being the hardest worker in being available to do whatever my boss wanted me to do, all of those things collided because I couldn't be there. And we're talking about a time where there was not cell phones and the ability to take work home. This was not an internet age where you could work for you. Right now, I understand that you can have an infant and then you leave at 5 o'clock, but you're back online by 7. That was not the world at that time. So when you were out of the office, you were done, not billing those hours.

And I had to go every day. And the stress, I mean, it was just excruciating. How did you talk to Patrick about it? I mean, and you're also probably trying not to put stress on him. Well, that was the hardest part. Yeah. Because when he was home, he used to do a schedule when he was a resident that had him sleeping in the hospital every other night. So the night that he was home, he actually had to get sleep.

So the question was who was waking up in the middle of the night with the baby? Yeah. He's not there at all because he's at the hospital. So it's me. And when he's there, he really has to sleep. So it's me. So it was, I mean, the time when our infant daughter in Boston for the first two years of her life was probably the most difficult time, both in my marriage and in my professional life. Because I was doing everything.

And I didn't want to make him feel guilty or put stress on him. So much so that when he got an extra year, his surgical residency was five years long. And they asked him at the end of it to stay for another year and be like a junior attending to supervise. It's a huge honor to do this. And he really wanted to do it. And I said, yes, but what we'll need to do is I'm going to take my daughter and the nanny and move down to Washington, D.C. Because I wanted to start my career at a law firm in Washington, D.C. And I said, this is going to be good for you because you.

because you don't have to feel the guilt of coming having a rush home, having to be with us. You can do this position, which is going to be extraordinarily time intensive without worrying about us. We're going to go down. So I took the nanny, paid her, hired her to live with me and the baby so that he could have this experience without the worry. And it was good in that sense. I mean, he could just put his all into that, and we were fine, but it was very stressful this time. And that was for a year. That was for a year.

About a year. Yeah. How often did you guys see each other during that time? You know, he probably came home three or four times during that time, but I mean, he was doing, he was running a part of the Mass General's like trauma intake service. So I don't know, I don't watch the pit, but I hear it's really good. He was like the, you know, running the whole thing. And the hours were insane and he wanted that experience and it made him a better surgeon. And because I knew how important to the, I never wanted him to feel resentful.

Yeah. You know, to like miss out on an opportunity because he had to give it up in this way. You know, we all have these periods. You know, it's almost guaranteed, especially if you've got two people who have ambition and have dreams or hopes, there are going to be periods of really, really hard stuff. That's right. That's one of the reasons why I wrote about this period. Yes.

Because I wanted people to see that you can go through hard things. And if you stick with it, it'll be worth it in the end that other successful people have based similar challenges. I wanted to be honest about that part of my life. And you never had to put your foot on the break of your career. Right. But you did have to let up off the gas. Absolutely. You had to set different expectations for yourself.

You had to be okay with not being perfect. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Which is not easy. It is not. For someone who has gotten to a certain level in your career, you're used to working a certain way and producing at a certain level. And at times you need to say, I'm going to take this job or do this thing that may not be.

And I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to be the best at. Exactly. You know, I'm not going to be one, number one, but I'm not going to be the last 1,000. Exactly. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully. Are you looking to buy your first home? Or are you nervous to even scroll through the listings?

I get it. It's one of those milestones that sounds simple in theory, but often has a learned. learning curve. And finding the right playbook for you can be challenging. Progressives Open the House initiative is committed to breaking down these barriers by providing the knowledge, tools, and financial support to help more people purchase their first home. Their up payment program is offering down payment assistance of up to $13,500 each to at least 200 eligible first-time homebuyers. It's just one of the ways they're dedicated to helping people overcome home-buying challenges and make progress. Progress is in their name for a reason. Learn more about uppayment and

Progressive's commitment to first-time homebuyers at progressive.com slash open the house where homebuyers can access home buying resources and support to empower them in their housing journey. Sometimes losing weight or really making any meaningful health or lifestyle changes can feel a bit like writing a book. The first few chapters come easy because you're excited. But somewhere in the middle, motivation fades. Life gets busy and finishing becomes a real challenge. That's one of the reasons I think Noom is so interesting. It's a health and wellness app that combines GLP1 medication with behavioral support to help people lose weight and keep it off. With Noom, medication can be delivered to your door in as little as seven days. But Noon doesn't just focus on the medication. It also gives you

psychology-based tools, daily lessons, food logging, and coaching to help you make healthier choices. You all know how powerful I think coaching can be. The Noon GLP1 program starts at $39 and is delivered to your door in as little as seven days. Start your GLP1 journey today at Noon.com. That's N-O-O-O-M-com. lose for keeps. Initial one-month subscription from $39 plus tax and $99 plus tax per month thereafter. Cost of medication not included. Final pricing depends upon program selection. You know what amazes me? The amount of energy people have for their dogs. You can be at a family gathering and within five minutes, everyone's pulling out pictures, sharing stories, and comparing notes on their pets. My family is definitely guilty of that.

We're all pet lovers across the board, so we can appreciate it when a brand can match our level of intensity. Ali is a dog food and wellness brand that is done with the one-size-fits-all approach. Ali's recipes are made with real ingredients created by chefs and informed by vet nutritionists. What I really like is that everything starts with your dog and their specific needs. When you sign up, Ali builds a personalized meal plan with ingredients that support better digestion, energy, skin health, and more. Even better, Ali offers health tracking in their app so you can keep up with your pup's health and see the difference the food is making in their life. Get ready for both you and your pup to be obsessed. Head to ollie.com slash IMO. Tell them all about your dog and use code IMO to get 70% off your. welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, it's risk-free with their obsession guarantee.

That's OLL-L-I-E.com slash IMO and enter code IMO to get 70% off your first box. Ali, feed the obsession. Well, I want folks to really get an understanding of the path, the career path that is required. I mean, being a lawyer and being, I mean, I understand what clerkships are and the order of, you know, choices and acceptances you have to get, in order to even be qualified to be a candidate for the Supreme Court, can you walk our listeners through that process? No. Which starts with being at the top of your Harvard Law School class and being on the Harvard Law Review. Yes, yes. Being on something like Law Review is an important. training ground if you want to be a judge because it helps you to think about the law in a very

academic way, systematic way. You are getting a lot of exposure to legal writing, which is what judges ultimately do. I then went on to clerk that is become an assistant in chambers to judges. to judges, and I actually had the great good fortune of clerking for three different judges at the three different levels of the federal system. So in our federal justice system, we have the trial level, the court of appeals level, and the Supreme Court. Talk about the levels too, because district court, how is that different from the appellate court? That's different from the Supreme Court. And I really just want to educate people on. So the first level, the trial level, is called the district court in the federal system.

And at that level, that is when people who have a dispute and they say we're going to file a lawsuit, you start by filing it before a single judge in the district court. So each judge sits on their own. They each have their own courtroom. And the real goal at that level is to establish the facts of a case. This is where trials happen. This is where people who are accused of crimes. You have the prosecutor filing charges and they pick a jury.

All of that is happening at the trial level. So you really, as a young lawyer working with a judge in that environment, you learn so much about meeting people and interacting with the real people and developing the facts in a case. The Court of Appeals level is the next level. And the person who loses at the trial level has the ability. to appeal. And that is basically to challenge what happened in the trial and say that there was something wrong legally with the process that led to their loss. The court of appeals level is three judges who are on panels and they are interacting mostly with the lawyers. Because when you have an appeal, you hire a lawyer who will take your case to these three judges.

Exactly. The facts have already been established. And the appellate judges are supposed to take those facts and really just review the legal aspects and whether the law was properly applied below. And they read the transcripts, basically, of the lower court proceedings. I had the great good fortune of having a lot of different jobs in this early period before I became a judge. But I did clerk for judges at all three levels. And I ended up being appointed as a judge at all three levels. So my first judicial appointment was actually made by your husband. I was appointed to the district court in Washington, D.C., and did that trial level work for about seven and a half years before President Biden appointed me to the appellate court in Washington, D.C., where I did the three-judge panel legal reviews.

And then I was appointed to the Supreme Court. So it's been quite a journey. Highly, highly qualified. Can you talk a bit about why judges are important? You know, I run into this all the time. You know, people, you know, you get your ballot assuming you're voting and there's the long list of judges, right, at the state level, right? And you're checking them off. And a lot of people are like, what, that's a hassle, you know, I got to go through that. And why is it important? Or is it, you know, Does it even matter who is a judge? Can you talk a bit about why people should be informed, aware, and care who their judges are? So I will just say, and you're right, that I encounter this a fair amount, people who really don't understand the significance. Judges are important to democracy and to liberty for every single person who, who lives in our society.

And I say that because in order for us all, with all of our different backgrounds and all of our different views and feelings about how things should happen, all of the disputes that arise just from being people, living together in society, you have to have a forum to resolve those disputes peacefully. So we don't have people at each other. others throats all the time or taking it, you know, upon themselves to resolve disputes.

You have to agree to take this to court if it's something that you are truly at odds over, which is going to happen when you just have a free society. So in order to agree, we all have to believe that there is a judicial system that is going to be fair, that is going to be neutral, that when you bring your dispute to, to the court, that judge doesn't have any pre-existing stake in the particular issue, that they're listening to both sides and fairly reviewing the evidence and coming up with a decision that is a just one. Somebody's going to win, somebody's going to lose, but we have to have that forum so that we can live together peacefully in our society. So it's really, I mean,

It's crucial. So Mish made the obvious point that you're well qualified for this and you've had some experiences in the whole levels, all the levels. Yes. Has the job met your expectation? Oh. You know, I don't know that I had a whole lot of expectations. It was such a blur getting to this position, going through the process of being confirmed, getting there. Because I had clerked at the Supreme Court, I think I had a good sense of what it was going to be like.

But it's so much more. I mean, it's just extraordinary. I'm so privileged to do this work, to serve the American people in this way, to be in the room where it happens. It's really, I'm so grateful for it. And I think in that way, it is absolutely surpassed any expectation that I had. Well, we're fortunate to have you. Can you, how is life changed? We talked a little bit about our shared bubble experiences.

Do you feel comfortable just talking about what, you know, how being a life appointed Supreme Court justice affects your day to day? And what are the limits and how are your kids managing and what are the highs and what are some of the lows? Well, it is a big, big change. It's a big commitment. I think the thing that has been most startling in a way is the need for security in a way that you didn't have before that I had never experienced. I was on the lower courts, but they don't have the same level of security or security needs as the justices do. And so it has meant really having to adjust my life. I can't just go out in any meaningful way as I used to. And that can be a downside,

just not being able to live a normal life. I know you know what it's like to feel confined. But again, I mean, it's certainly a privilege to do the work. Yeah. And to have the platform. That goes without saying, you know. Yeah. But it's also okay to acknowledge those changes.

That's right. I know how you feel. You never want to come off as not grateful for service, especially people like us who were raised to be public servants. Yes, absolutely. You also have to watch your exposure to things so that there isn't a bias. That's exactly right. And what does that mean for you in terms of reading the paper and listening to the news and how do you get your information and what do you have to be careful about? and how are you dealing with the potential conflicts so that you do stay, you know, above board?

No, you really have to be focused on that. There are employees in the court who, in the legal office of the court, in the public information office of the court, who are assisting us in that way. When I get invitations to do things, I always have them screened by the legal office, the public information office, just to make sure that there are no ethical conflict. This is not a fundraiser. There are lots of limits on what judges can do. And I try to be very, very mindful and scrupulous with respect to that because, as you say,

our obligation is to be unbiased in our approach. And so you have to then navigate all the sources that could make for an appearance of partiality, which you want to avoid. So there are lots of things that I end up not accepting for that reason. New sources, I think, you know, I don't have a lot of time. Unfortunately, you know, but I do, you know, the normal general media sources are made available. And I think it's harder when you're talking about there's so much social media now. I know.

This is a whole different world. It's a whole different world. And not everything is relaxed. And the hardest part for judges is that we really cannot participate. Probably saving you some brain cells too. We need you focused on your opinions. Yes. We actually have a listener question to answer.

We do. We do. That you've been so gracious and with your time, generous, and thorough with your time. It's just, but we want to help some folks out. One last bit of advice from our listener. From our listener who's Lisa from San Diego. I am an entry-level professional working under a new boss who has a very specific way of communicating and executing work. I know that it's important to develop mentors in an early career position, but I have struggled to connect with her.

I've noticed that even small deviations in language or approach are met with strong criticism, and I'm finding it difficult to balance staying true to my own working style while meeting her expectations. How can I adapt without feeling like I'm losing my voice or confidence at work? And how do I make sure I find people who really have my back and help me grow my career? That's an excellent question. I mean, mentors are very important in terms of professional development. That's what I've seen. I wonder whether Lisa has had a campaign.

to talk with her boss and potential mentor because it's possible that this person is not aware of the difficulty that Lisa is having. And if she were to say something like, you know, I really want to develop our relationship. I would love to have you as my mentor in this work. And how can I communicate in a way that will be most. productive because I want this to be a good working relationship. If she expresses an interest in the boss's views of this, I think that she might find a receptive audience. And if she doesn't, then she knows that this might not be the right fit for her

professionally. But I would give it a chance by really just being open and coming from a perspective of I really want this to work. And I'm open to feedback and wanting to know how we can improve. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I am surprised as somebody who's led and managed, you know, I think people who work with you don't realize that sometimes your boss is just not focused. Yes. Yes. Not because they don't care, but because the assumption is that there's the mission that sometimes takes precedent over how you doing and is this working out. And that doesn't necessarily indicate lack of intent to mentor, but sometimes you lose track.

And I think it's true like giving your boss the benefit of the doubt and at least making an effort to communicate. And that's a scary thing. Very scary. You know, it doesn't happen a lot because it feels scary. You want to make sure you don't overstep or misstep. Another thing that I would suggest for Lisa, if the conversation is had and it isn't as productive as she'd hoped, to think about whether there are other people who are not her direct supervisor within her work environment that can be kind of a mentor or a sounding board. I found this to be true when I was practicing at Sidley, my firm. I mean, I enjoyed all the partners that I worked with.

But I also made it a point to meet with senior associates. I found that some of those partners, particularly the women, were the people that I could talk to. Yes. You know, and oftentimes I would go to them in confidence, you know, after you understood that they could hold your confidence. and that you would establish that relationships, that relationship, I found them to be better mentors. Yes.

Right? Because they could also commiserate. They could give me a perspective on where that partner was. Sometimes they knew what was going on. And I got some of my best advice in the law firm from other partners who I wasn't working with. You weren't working with, but went to.

No, that's fantastic. And especially you can find those people as well, even if they're doing the kind of work they're interested in, sometimes that could develop into a working relationship. But at least going to them and asking for advice or for lunch, the opportunity to talk informally. And being humble in a way always helps. You know, when you go to anybody who is more senior than you. That's great advice. I don't have too much to add.

I've always felt that being a direct boss doesn't necessarily make you a good mentor. Oh, for sure. So you hit on my point is find a mentor who's not your direct supervisor without going over that person's head, right? And also, not everybody is going to be a great boss. That's true. Or a great mentor. Or a great mentor. Not every boss will be a great mentor, as you said.

And sometimes there's learning in that. You know, you just have to develop the skin to know the difference. It's like sometimes you're going to have a difficult situation and it's difficult and it's not you. So how do you make sure you get through that hole? Right. And if you don't think you can get through it whole, then the question becomes maybe it's time to move on. But I always caution people, especially in this economy, keep your job. until you, you know, don't walk out, man.

Well, and you know the other thing I always say is don't burn bridges. Yeah. When you walk out, assuming you have something else lined up, it is super important to have the people you leave behind. Have a good sense of you and not feel that you have slighted them in any way. Because you never know when you're going to have to cross that bridge again. That's right. And you want them to be out there saying good things about you, even though you don't work there anymore. That's right.

Well, hopefully that helps Lisa. Justice Jackson, you know, you have given us a lot of time. We really appreciate it. Thank you for coming to IMO. Thanks for being here. Thank you for giving me this chance. It's been delightful. Oh, my goodness.

Like I said, delightful. And the lovely one. The young adult. The young adults version is out there in the world, but you know, you still got to read the non-young adults version. It's a beautiful story. It really is. Thank you so much. And thank you for sharing with us. This back-to-school season, spend less on your kids with Amazon. You know, one thing nobody prepares you for when you have kids is how quickly they go through school supplies. I cannot imagine when I was growing up going through

backpacks as quickly as my kids do nowadays. But somehow, once a year, it's back to the store we go, or to two stores, or three. Not to mention how fast it all just manages to disappear. The school year isn't half over, and somehow we're out of pencils, erasers, notebooks, and 30 other things. That's why I really appreciate Amazon during the back-to-school season, whether you're shopping for school supplies, backpacks, lunch gear, clothes, or all those last minute items that I know you don't want to be running around for, Amazon has it all. You can compare brands instantly and read reviews knowing that what you buy will actually last. Basically, Amazon makes it easy to get what you need and get back to your life. So remember, with Amazon's low back-to-school prices,

just spend less on your kids because every day. dollar you don't spend on them is a dollar you haven't spent on them. Shop now at amazon.ca.