IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Patent Leather Boots and Purpose with Keke Palmer

Episode Date: July 15, 2026

The Look takes the Superdome! Emmy-award winning actress, host, singer, and author Keke Palmer sits down with Michelle at Essence Festival in New Orleans. The two get into everything from Michelle’s early style icons (hey Pam Grier and Teresa Graves!), to Michelle’s first kiss with her husband, and negotiating outfits with Malia and Sasha during the White House years. Keke and Michelle also discuss the impact of fame in parenthood, how the idea of purpose has changed from generation to generation, and staying in the moment when it matters most.Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We also had to think about the cost of some of these clothes. I mean, being First Lady, it's, it's, it's, expect, Barack would look at the clothing bill. He'd be like, girl? I was like, dude. I'm like, dude, just, just stand down. Just stand down, dude. It is to be here with you, Mrs. Obama.

Every time I get to spend time with you, I'm so just thrilled. I love you, Kiki. I love you back. Thank you for being here, babe. And obviously, we're so happy to be here. You all are live and looking good. I was just going to say that. I mean, we are here to talk about the look, your incredible book,

and everything that it means to establish a look, right? We're all wearing fashion. I see beautiful women and men. I see the fellas are out there doing their things. So I want to give my hats off to you guys for bringing that fabulosity tonight for us. I'm so excited. I think I also have to tell them, even though I know it's still under wraps a little bit with higher ground, obviously your company.

but we're working on a movie, y'all. This is going to be good. I'm so excited starring myself. Kiki and Higher Ground, it's amazing. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm grateful that you're going to be a part of that project, babe. Yes, I don't want to tell you guys too much,

but it involves basketball in Aubrey Plaza, so you can imagine some comedy. So keep a lookout for that. We'll keep you guys posted. Well, you know, about black women, black people, culture, setting trends. What was so important about it for you to create this book?

to talk about how to own what we put out into the world. Ooh, as we all know how we show up in the world says a whole lot about sometimes how we're treated, what kind of respect we have, and during my eight years as First Lady, I made it a point not to talk about fashion because I didn't want my eight years. years to be just about the shoes I wore or the dress I was in. I wanted people to see who I was and what I was doing. And as a woman, a lot of times we are talked about how we look first before what we say. Absolutely. But fashion was a big part of what I did. I mean, I made it a point to think really, strategically about how I showed up.

So the look is now my opportunity to share that journey because I do love fashion and I did make a point of thinking through strategically how I needed to show up in the world as the first black first lady. Yes. And so the look takes you on that journey. I love that because the look is not only being defined by what you look like on the outside but the agency you have with how you show up and how much that is allowed to define who you are.

So it's many different levels to that. I want to, as we go down that journey of the look with you, I want to start at the top. Take me back to the south side of Chicago. You know, when we think about your personal style back then when you were Michelle Robinson. Yes. You know, what was your look?

How would you get up and get dressed? What did you think about fashion at that point? You know, girl, when I was growing up, my style was broke. Okay. It was just broke working girl. You know, my style was a lot of no, right? Because Marion Robinson, my mother, she pinched a penny, you know.

So she wasn't really into fashion. So I was one of those young girls who was always, I wish, you know, if I had the money, if I could, you know, if I really had full control over my own look. I could dream about what I wanted to wear. But we didn't grow up being able to afford much of anything. You know, we were shopping at Sears and Robux, you know, gar animals, what was on sale. I remember the Sears Tower growing up in Illinois.

Oh, my God. I was so sick of Sears growing up. But I did, I grew up on the South Side with a ton of fashion. I mean. Who were some of your inspirations? They were all of the girls in the neighborhood. You know, I mean, I was always looking up to that girl just older than me. Yes.

You know, the little cutie that be sitting on the sidelines at my brother's basketball games. Yes, yes. I was like 10 years old, and she was 13 or 14 coming in with her Gloria Vanderbilt jeans and her chains laid. You know, I knew what fashion and style was, but when I was young, we just couldn't afford it. I used to always want to wear a pair of white patent leather go-go boots. Come on, go-go boots. Because I was watching, like, get Christy Love, Foxy Brown.

Yes, camera. I mean, those fine black women and those little mini skirts and those boots that just zipped up. I mean, and speaking of the look, I think that also feels like power. When I think about those kind of leather boots, I think about an Afro, I think about a leather jacket with a little peplum to it. Oh my God. That makes me think about power. Indeed. Maybe that's what I was thinking.

I was channeling some get Christy love. I was going to shoot somebody up. But Marianne Robinson wasn't having that. Okay. She was like, it wasn't practical to wear patent leather boots when there was 10 inches of snow. So I was stuck with my little rubber boots. Yeah. And it's interesting when we see what is representing.

on television or in music, what's actually possible for us in our day-to-day life, especially when we're thinking about people that are of minority. People might think, oh, the White House is your first experience dealing with big institutions, but obviously it's not. You were in college at Princeton and Harvard. Being in predominantly white spaces was something that you were very, you know, well at navigating. But when you think about those early years of yourself in college, what role did fashion or your look play then?

Like when you first entered those spaces. You know, I was probably more focused on the academics back then. I mean, you know, I went to college, broke. We were on financial aid. I was on work study. You know, I had the clothes that I had, you know. I came with my Levi's and my polo shirts and my Levi jeans jacket. I just didn't have the time or the money to focus too much on what I had.

look like. And I think that's true for a lot of college kids. You know, I mean, you just, you're away from home for the first time. You're trying to figure out where to get your hair done in a white space. I mean, that was like a big deal going to a white school in a white neighborhood. It was like, where am I getting my hair done? I was more focused on that than I was what I was getting, what I was wearing. But my focus in college was trying to make sure I showed up and got those grades. So there were classmates of mine who came from more affluence, who came with the preppy look and they had all the clothes.

And some of these kids were black. But most of the black kids at Princeton when I was going, we were all just trying to get through. You know, we weren't really focused on. We didn't have time to focus on our look. I really, really relate to this, especially when I think about me in the early years coming up in the industry. where you think that, I mean, obviously, I had glam in fashion, all that thing was thought of,

but I didn't always have a lot of money to have the best styling or to get the best clothes. So my way of surviving or being able to thrive in those spaces was just being really good at the job. You know, it's just like, I'm going to show up, I'm going to do so good. And you're not going to think about if I have on Louis Vuitton or not, even if I have on an off thing or whatever it is. At what point did you start being able to even open yourself up to thinking about how fashion could support you on your journey to success? You know, it really wasn't until I started campaigning for Barack in the presidential race. Because the truth is that while I was a professional, went to law school, worked at a big firm. I did a lot of jobs.

Again, once again, my focus was on the work. My focus was on the career. And I always thought the outfit, I wore what I needed to wear to get the job done. Right? So when I was a corporate attorney, back in the 90s when I was practicing, we had those ugly women's suits, these 90 suits with the big shoulder pads. I was just going to wear the uniform that I needed to get the job done. And so when I first went out on the campaign trail in Iowa, fashion became an important part of something I had. had to think about because I had to be organized. Yeah. I mean, if you think about what I was doing when I had two little kids, I was still working a full-time job, I was the vice president of

community affairs at the University of Chicago hospitals. I would campaign three days a week. I would leave Chicago at five in the morning because I wanted to make sure I'd see the kids I'd get on the first flight out of Chicago into Iowa. I'd land in Iowa campaign all day. And that would I might do five rallies, three fundraisers. And I'd do as much as I could to get to the last flight out of Iowa to get back to Chicago in time for dinner with the girls. So I was usually just wearing one outfit. It was giving Steve Jobs. It was, it was one of those. It had to be like, it's a sweater, it's a vest. It's a fundraiser. Now I'm at a fair. And, you know, It had to be versatile for the whole day.

But then I realized at this pace, I didn't have time to think about clothes. And that was the first time I met a designer. This woman Maria Pinto, I was introduced to her. She was a young designer in Chicago. And that was the first time I met somebody who owned their own fashion line, and they made clothes. and I really went to her because it was convenient. I could do one-stop shopping.

I could go to her. She had my measurements. This is when I was wearing those sheath dresses that were silk, sleeveless. She made those. Those were Maria Pinto designs. And I could go to her, get fitted, have a set of clothes that I didn't have to think about. So Kiki, when I was, fashion was something that I was trying not to think about. Right, I had to be organized enough and have enough resources so that I could put on clothes, not have to think about it, know that I look good and look presentable because this is when people were starting to write about me, right?

And that makes me curious of when you understood the power of it. And maybe it didn't even come up first positively. Maybe it was the power of seeing how people were writing up about you because of what you wore. Do you remember a moment in time? Oh, I remember the first big speech I was. gave in Iowa, it was packed. I mean, I was pulling more crowds than most of Barack's opponents. Okay.

Not clocking. But it was interesting, the more popular I became, the more of a threat I became, it was interesting. That's when the article started coming out. I had been campaigning for more than a year. And then it was,

this is when I understood, like this is politics. Oh, they're coming out. coming after me because I'm useful. And they're trying to beat my husband, so they're trying to slow me down, right? And some of those first articles, they would always start she was wearing a purple sheath and she had on this pair of shoes. It wouldn't matter what I said, Kiki.

The article would start with what I had on. Wow. And I realized, oh, this is how they do women in politics. This is how we treat women in public life. We diminish them to just what they look like. And not what I'm saving now. I'm giving impassionate speeches. I think people know now that I can give a speech, okay?

That wasn't just, that didn't just start happening. You know, I was always really good on the campaign trail. I was always a powerful orator. And I was good at it because my topic was good. It was about my husband. So I could, I'll tell you something good about that man. It was like, give me a mic. Come on, give me a mic.

Give me a mic. Let me tell you something. In that moment, right? Because there's two things that's happening. We're in the campaign. I have to be strategic for good reason, right? I have to understand what I'm going up against. But then I also have to still be me, right?

imagine there's a part of you that was like, I want to do what needs to be done, but like, I still want to be true to me. How did you waver the balance of how to create the look around your agency and what your husband and you all needed for what you ended up becoming in the presidency? You know, holding on to who I was was never hard for me. I mean, that was, I think a lot of that had to do with age. I mean, we weren't coming into this while we were. young to be a president and first lady. We were in our, let me get the math right, we were in our 40s or mid-40s. But you all accomplished so much. Exactly. We were, we were fully formed, Barack and I were fully formed people. You know, I had had five, six careers. I was the mother

of two. I had ran organizations. I'd worked in almost every sector. I've been a corporate attorney. I was an assistant to the mayor. I was the vice president of community affairs. y'all, I ran stuff. I had a job. I did some stuff, right? And I had ups and downs, right? I had pitfalls and I had lost to say because a lot of people

think that obviously working in the White House being under that institution, it's a huge deal, it's a huge job as a public servant. But to understand all the things you did to get you there, you were quite primed and ready. Right. I mean, when I wrote bookcoming, it was interesting that when I was talking to the

publishers about what kind of book I wanted to write this First Lady book, of course they thought, well, we're going to talk about the eight years in the White House. And I was like, well, if I'm going to let people know who I am, those eight years, that was just a piece of a greater story. You know, the eight years in the White House, the time that Barack and I were president and First Lady, that doesn't fully define us as people. You know, we lived long lives, long full lives, right? So I think because we were able to bring that level of confidence and experience into the job, even as young as we were, I think that helped me.

And I think it's more difficult for younger people. Like I do. I mean, you amaze me that of your level of poise and confidence because you had to develop yourself in the public eye. I mean, you were a baby figuring this out and trying to hold on to that as you're building it. that's a different challenge, right? I really appreciate that again.

Yeah, and so that's why I love this girl because she carries herself like an old soul and that is not easy to do. It really means a lot. I've had a lot of great examples. I feel really blessed in my life to be able to see women such as yourself up close and personal. I remember when I first met you, Sasha Amalia,

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That's BOMBAS.com slash IMO code IMO at checkout. Talking about, you know, the road to you all getting to the White House, all the many lives you live, a continuous theme is the way to of performing excellence in spaces that were not designed for you. Yeah. So then that becomes the question that I think we all, you know, would want to understand how to distill something from, which is when is it time to stop reshaping a space and building your own?

Or is it something you do simultaneously? Yeah. I mean, I think it's a process. And it changes at different times in your life and it changes at different points of leverage. in your life, right? That word leverage. Because we don't always have leverage to control the spaces that we're in,

and that's okay, because sometimes you're developing leverage. I mean, I tell a lot of young people, yeah, you want to come into a new job with confidence and owning some stuff, but you also have to earn the right to have an opinion. You know, I'm sorry. I want my young people to be empowered, but sometimes, you know, you got to...

Experience. You need the experience. pay your dues, right? So for me, there were times when I felt like a space wasn't quite right for me, but I didn't have the leverage to change it. Yeah. You know, and that was okay. I mean, I wasn't upset by it. I understood, right? And I also needed a job. You know, I tell people, don't, don't mess up your money, right? I mean, sometimes you don't have leverage because you don't have power because you need to be in a space. also feels quite objective because I think we sometimes personalize our value in the workplace,

which can really slow us up. But if you use that objectivity and you say to yourself, look, right now I don't have the leverage, but if I learn what I learn, I stay here for five, six months, I figure out what I need to figure out, I can take this money or I can take this experience and I can flip it somewhere else. You never want the circumstances to push you out of a situation that you need to be in, right? Sometimes, you know, it's like, look, my, I grew up watching working class parents. My father worked a city job his whole life. He was probably not happy. He didn't get paid enough, but he had a family of four to take care of, and he got up every day, and he put up with a whole bunch of stuff. My dad too. And I think about my father's and our father's

journey before I get so upset about a situation that I'm just going, I'm going to blow it up for myself, right? But I believe that showing up in a situation with excellence, like every job that I've done, whether they've accepted me, I've been ready for it, I've tried to learn from it, and show up in a way that they wanted me to stay, right? It's like, so if I'm leaving you, I'm going to leave you wanting me to stay, right? I'm going to leave when I'm ready to leave. And then as you grow and build more power and leverage, that's when I found that I could, I had the opportunity to shape my own environment. Yes. Like when I finally left working for city government, I left to run my own nonprofit.

And when I left that, I was working as an assistant to the mayor and then the assistant to the commissioner of planning and economic development. I was working. for someone. Right. I was someone's assistant. So I lived under their culture and their rules because they were the boss. Now, I got to a point where I thought, could I run my own thing? You know?

Yeah, yeah. Am I good enough? Am I strong enough to take an idea and grow an organization myself, build my own culture and shape my own organization? I left to do that. That's when I ran and started a nonprofit organization. that's when I was able to shape culture and dress. And I love what you whittled it down to

because I think a lot of times we get caught up, you know, I see a lot of times online with what it means to be a CEO or this title or that title. But really what you're zaring on is the function. The function you wanted to pursue is to create a culture, to create a space defined by your beliefs, your concepts, to support your mission. That's what drove you to realizing I should start my own thing.

That's right. You know, as opposed to I just want to be the boss or something. Right. I think that's an important distinction. And you work your way up to power. I mean, like, I want us all as black people, as women empower, to own our spaces. But you really get to own it when it's yours. Yeah.

Right. And sometimes we get to do that, and sometimes we don't. I've been fortunate enough to be in positions where I've run my own organization. And then being the first lady of the United States has been. basically being the CEO of this section of the White House, right? And that's when I was able to say, this is what this will be while I'm at the helm, right? But I still had to think about the role itself. You know, so when it came to fashion, the look, so to speak.

You know, I've written about the fact that wearing my hair in braids, I started wearing my hair in braids in college, right? But as I went up the professional ranks, being a lawyer, they wanted, you know, I didn't want my hair to be a part of the conversation. I wanted to get the job. So I was straightening my hair just like everybody in the, every black woman in the 80 and the 90s. Exactly. So it definitely was something that was held back from us. We didn't have that freedom. So I made the decision, you know, look, America is struggling enough to accept the first black president and first lady.

not going to make my hair the issue. You know, that was a choice. You know, I was like, we need to get health care passed. You know, we need to focus on getting kids educated and making sure that. That's important because you're delineating what is most important, that process of delineation of what do I should lean here, Charlina, that level of responsibility and objectivity, it's really major. And it was about something more than what I wanted. Yeah. Right? When I'm, as First Lady of the United States, it wasn't about what I needed to look like. I needed to show up in the way that the country needed me to show up. Wow. Right? And that wasn't a sacrifice. You know, that was just like, this is the job. The job we are here is to serve the nation,

to be a representative of this country, to serve it proudly, not to make my hair, my clothes, my shoes, the story. But I did realize the power that I could do with that platform to lift up fashion in a very different way. And so I was like, all right, if everybody's looking at my shoes, then I'm going to wear a designer that could use the attention, right? I mean, instead of choosing Dior for my inaugural gown, I chose Jason Wu. He was an immigrant. He was young.

his story mattered in a way that I knew that choosing him to make my gown would change his life in a way that some of those longtime designers, you know, it's like you had your turn. And I also love that you would be wearing J.Crew. I mean, I remember that as a teenager and the lady would be like, she's wearing Drey Crew.

I love J. Crew. How are you going to talk about J. Crew when your wife wears J.Crew? Like, I love that because it's like that is a universal, affordable, very nice line. remember that being such a big topic growing up because it was accessible. Yeah. You know, and people felt like they could relate to you. Like, she shops where I shop.

Well, fashion is like that. You know, fashion is high-end. It's designers, but it's also the beautiful stores at the mall that get us through. The Jake Cruz, the Banana Republics. You know. Monaco. I used to love Club Monica. Exactly.

Why was I loving that at 14? Exactly. All of that is about the American experience. And I was like, well, and I did not wear a lot of European designers, not because I don't love European design, but I am the American first lady. So I'm going to rep U.S. brands. So when we would travel abroad, I was like, I'm going to wear an American designer. If we were in India, it was an Indian immigrant American designer.

I mean, there were so many ways to work around representation that if you're, by being thoughtful and strategic about how we wanted to show up, and reppping black designers, Tracy Reese, Sergio Hudson. That's my guy, right? I love him so much. I mean, there's just so many amazing minority women designers that it was easy for me to make those choices, to make, to do that mixing up, right? And we also had to think about the cost of some of these clothes.

I mean, being First Lady, it's, it's a. Barack would look at the clothing bill. He'd be like, girl? I was like, dude. I'm like, dude, just stand down. Just stand down, dude. Don't look at my clothing. Do you remember the first, the look you were on your first date?

Oh, our first date. You know what? I don't. I know there was a deep cut. You know, I remember what I was wearing when we had our first date. kiss. Oh my gosh. Give us the details. I do remember that. Now, I hope he's

happy that I remembered that even before the first date, but I remember it because we were going to, he was a summer associate at the law firm I was working for. So they had this summer associate outing at a partner's

house in the uppity rich part of Chicago and one of the northern suburbs. So we had gone out there for the day and played basketball. and volleyball and all that. And I gave him a ride because he had a janky car, and I was driving a sob. So I was like, you want to ride with me?

So I had to take him back. And he was like, are you busy? And I was like, oh, I got a little time. And we went on a walk down 53rd Street and stopped to get ice cream. I was wearing black biker shorts. Uh-oh. And this black and gold striped top. I remember that.

It was like sleeves. It was like a bowen neck. It was short sleeves. And it was sort of a long t-shirt. Oh, cute. I remember that clearly because we went and got ice cream and sat outside the ice cream place on the curb. I had chocolate. And he leaned over and he said, can I have a kiss? He asked you.

He asked me, girl. Girl, I see the movie now. I don't know who the man is, but I'm you. The love story. Kiki Palmer as Michelle Obama. I'm here for that moment. Okay, my publishers are here. You know they're working on that now.

They're going to start that. I need the romance. I wanted to be the love story. Yes. Oh, that is so special. I remember that. I remember what I had on. I mean, your life has gotten,

it's been so public. I mean, it can never really go backwards. And I know I'm always hearing this, you say this when we talked on my, on your podcast, when we talked on my podcast, when we're talking right now, you seem to have no qualms about protecting your inner world and your sense of self. I want to distill that for the audience. Like how, what is that process for you? How do, how does one protect their inner selves being so perceived?

And now we have it on the internet. Even if you're not an entertainer or you don't decide to be a public figure. Every single one of us is being perceived constantly. And once you are perceived or you are viewed, you change, right? Once you're not who you are in your room alone when somebody's watching you. You become someone else. So how does one preserve that sense of sense? You know, it's becoming more and more difficult with AI, social media.

I mean, you know, just to put it in perspective, Kiki, when we entered the White House, there was no social media. Social media did not exist, and thank God it did not, right? We had Blackberries. Y'all, remember the Blackberry? I used to love BBM. I mean, they didn't let Barack as the president have an, iPhone because it was a security risk, right? So I think, first of all, that helped a bit because

social media was just starting, right? Yeah. We were the first presidency coming into being at the beginning of social media. So I think that helped a little bit. So I wasn't used to being able to know everything that everybody said about me, right? That wasn't a possibility, right? You know, what you got feedback on came through the press. It was an article written, and it would be an article, right? You weren't getting 24-hour news feeds. You didn't have a comment section to listen to.

So fortunately, for me, I didn't even grow up needing that in a way that this generation does. Yeah. It's another layer to it you're bringing up, him. It was just another layer. So when it became part of my reality, social media, I wasn't addicted to it, right? I didn't need it. It wasn't on my phone. I'm still not in the habit of looking at social media.

I'm on it, but not of it. You know what I'm saying? And I'm always warning young people to very, be very careful and monitor your access to that. I mean, it's just like you just don't need to give that many people access to your heart and your mind. And the only way you can control it is to not be in it. And you can be on it, but don't have it on your phone. And I just never did. So I just didn't get in the habit.

I had a whole communications team. I could get press clips. I could get them summarized and laid out without knowing the depths of everybody's thought. right? And that's good and bad, right? You know, if you get too much of the good, you get distorted. If you get too much of the bad, you get distorted. And I also knew that if people weren't getting me right, I couldn't trust it to tell me about you. I mean, I wouldn't trust social media to tell me about my worst enemy. Yeah. Because it wouldn't be a clear depiction. It wouldn't be real. It wouldn't be right now. Yeah. So how do I?

I protect my space, I just really protect it. I don't let just anybody into my space. I don't listen to comments from people who don't know me. I never would do that. I try to

get my daughters, just don't touch it. It's like it's dynamite, right? Yeah. So that's one way. Another way that I protect my space is who I let in it. You know, it's like my community, my friends, my people. I mean, Barack and I have been very good about the people who have

been with us. We bring them along. You know, Barack, his best friends are still his guys from high school. I mean, he's got a crew of guys from Hawaii who are with him like this. I've got girlfriends from law school to mothers that I raised my girls with. Those are my ride or die people. The people who know us outside of this before we were ever this and those are the people who I talk to and I'm having wine with, who I'm

breaking stuff down with. That's where I get my connection. How am I doing? I would get that from my mother. I mean, having my mother in the White House now, Mary and Robinson will keep a person grounded because she wasn't pressed about anything. And having

her there that I could just sit down with and look in the eye, and be like, am I still the Michelle you knew? And she would tell me the truth. So I think it's who we surround ourselves with, the company we keep. And I keep expanding. I mean, when I find good people like you, I scoop you up, right? So you get old enough where you start trusting your judgment, right?

I tell my girls, you got good judgment. So be open to new people because some of the best. people in my life for people that I met during the White House years and beyond, right? I've made some good friends over the last 10, 15 years, and if I had been closed off to them, I wouldn't know them. But let me tell you as quickly as you let people in, you got to be good with letting them out when they show you who they are, and they will show you. You know, the older you get, the more you recognize, oh, you don't, you don't, you.

You don't have me and mine, right? You're not on my team. So you start learning to trust those instincts, and you don't have to be rude about it. I call it the slow ghost. You know, you just slowly let people out of your life. You don't have to make a big deal out of you. You don't have to tell nobody off.

You just slowly disappear like a ghost. So I'm hearing, obviously, keep a good circle around you that also helps you to maintain grounded and reflect your truth back to you. We don't let too many people in. Again, with social media, there's a thing you read and you just assume that somehow that person's valid. Don't overvalue.

And they don't know you. They don't know you. I was just in Chicago, and let me tell you, the energy in the city was incredible. Everyone was just buzzing with excitement. While I was there, I actually had a bit of downtime. So I booked this Airbnb experience. It was a custom sneaker-making workshop.

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Growtherapy.com slash IMO. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance. insurance plan. In terms of, you know, we're bringing up Sasha and Malia, your amazing daughters, and young women in general coming up online seeing so many conflicting things around beauty. I mean, I would be remiss not to connect that to what we're talking about with the look. How do young women properly define their value in their relationship to beauty? On one side, they're saying, you need this thing, you need that thing, you need this makeup,

you need this hair, and then the other end, it's like, inner beauty, you know, but you need to have ass skin too. Like, how, it's so much coming at them. It is. It is. And it's not right. It's not right. I mean, what I try to do to my, with my daughters and a lot of the young girls in my life,

I just remind them that they are being marketed to, you know, that this is, like, this is about money. All right? Somebody telling you to buy this lip gloss, this, do this, try that. It's all your algorithm. So I just try to talk honestly and seriously with them about how the economy works and how the beauty industry works. I try to lift them up. You know, Barack and I tell our daughters, we have told our daughters from the day they were born

that they were beautiful and more importantly, smart and worthy. And we just keep saying it over and over again. When I meet some young girls, I met. some beautiful young girls backstage and all I wanted them to know is that they were beautiful and for them to keep it up and to be smart and to read. I try

to feed into them whatever is being sucked out of them on the other end but it isn't easy. We don't set it up so that it is easy for young girls to find themselves in the midst of all of this.

But I try to get my daughters to stay off social media to not read the comments to do other things other than be on their phones. But I also want them to feel good about playing in their beauty. And I mean, I feel like with them having had the experience of being so looked at in the White House, they still have such unique style. I remember I was saying that as soon as I seen them, I was like, I love your fashion. I was saying that to Sasha.

And they're both very different. You know, Sasha going to give you that boho sheet. Oh, my God, yeah. You know what I mean? Beli on their Zoe Kravitz. Like I live for their fashion. But I wanted them to play in that space. So I was like, yeah, try that.

Try that. You know, their dad didn't always understand it. Sometimes he's like, why is she wearing those lashes? I was like, let her play. It's not going to be that important in a minute, you know? I mean, so there is also fun and beauty. Yes. You know, it's all.

And I think it should be fun mostly. So it's like striking a balance that, you know, know, I try not to comment too much. You know, if they look good, I'm like, okay, you're playing in that space. I just try not to judge it. Now, our deal when we were in the White House was that because I understood how social media and the press would go after them. As like, when you're with us, that was really the only time.

That was the deal we had with the White House press corps, is that you cannot take photos or write about the girls in their private life. but if they were doing an official thing with us, okay, that's when you saw them at the Christmas tree lighting or when we were seeing Nelson Mandela or they were on an official trip. But they had to be dressed for that. I was like, you can have a say,

but you got to work with somebody on what you're going to wear because you got to wear a certain thing when you go see the Pope, you know? You can't show up with your belly. out when you see the Pope. So I'm not going to leave that to a 13-year-old. It's like, no, you don't get to choose because you don't know what you're doing, right? Yes.

You have to think about the look, every aspect of it. So we had a deal that when you were on in your first child role, we all, it was a cooperative effort in terms of what they dress, how they look. They had to say, but it had to be signed off on by people, like their mother and somebody with some sense, right? Yeah, yes. But in their regular lives, as little girls, they chose their prom dresses,

they chose what they wore to school, they chose how they did their hair and their nails. And I was like, you play all you want. And I wanted them to play and to get used to what their style was and to make mistakes. Yeah. You know, all teenagers look back on their pictures

and they think, oh my God, what was I thinking? But you need those moments. It's like, yeah, that was a little crazy. And I feel like I started playing more after because I was always on some little doogie Hauser vibe. Everything when I was a teenager, I always had a blazer on. I was really the VP.

I was tired of that. When I look back on my pictures, girl, all I was doing was, I'm on Oprah. I'm everywhere I go, I'm at my first party. Like, girl, go away. I don't know why I was so serious, child. Did you get to choose all of your fashion or when you were to? I was very stressed as a kid.

I felt so much responsibility. And I started to hear very early on because the adults or people will come My daughter looks up to you And you, I'm watching you baby And I'm like, oh no, the aunties, I got to You know, so I was always trying to just You know, but then it got to a point where

It was a little too much black girl magic Which is like, oh child, I can't handle Every day I was always at church And I was just trying so hard to make sure That I made everyone proud that it was not living for me And so I had to kind of redefine Well, this is what I was talking about.

I mean, that burden, it's like mine, you know, I was a grown woman. I could be a doogiehouser if I needed to. I mean, you were growing up. You were trying to figure it out. And I tried to do the opposite of that. I didn't. But that was also your job. You were also in the profession.

And that was a choice that you made because you enjoyed that. Yes. Malia and Sasha didn't choose it. it, right? I think that was also, that's also a different thing. It is. I didn't want them to feel like they were carrying a burden with something that they had no say in wanting to be. And I think that's, you know. And I love hearing you talk about that because, you know, I got my son. He's three and he's going to grow up now with, you know, people, oh, your mom is Kiki Palmer, whatever that means and whatever

comes with that. And so I love hearing you talk about responsibility and legacy with how you do with Sasha and Malia because it makes me think about how I want to be able to also articulate those nuances to my son. For him to have freedom, to understand what it means, but to also never feel like what I've taken on is something that he didn't have to take on. So it's very empowering for me.

And you don't have to be Michelle Obama or Kiki Palmer to feel that. If you were a parent that has a child that you feel is, feels pressured to follow in your footsteps, we all as parents are trying to figure out that balance of letting our kids be who, they want to be without them being many me's. So it's the same struggle, y'all.

It's just that our struggle is on TV. Yeah. It's so true. I always feel like that, you know, we're all living the same kind of thing just from different vantage points. So I love how you brought that down. You know what amazes me?

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What's a difference between, to you, assimilating to make it through an experience versus thriving in it? Oh, my goodness. I know that was a big one. You know, assimilating through, I think it's too, is too self-conscious. I think thriving through it means that you really are in your purpose in the moment. Like when you're in your purpose in the moment, nothing else matters. And let me give you an example. When I'm with kids and when I was First Lady, working with kids, what is, was will always be my joy, my heart.

I can break down now just talking about the value and worth of every child. Amen. And when I am with young people, I am there. I am in it. It doesn't matter what I have on. In fact, the clothes I have on, they better not get in the way of that interaction. Because the more important thing is not what I look like, but how do I make that kid feel? And if I'm all stuffy and in some dress that can't be touched and can't be wrinkled,

I am not in my purpose, right? So in those moments, the clothes have to facilitate the thing I'm trying to do, which is connect with this kid right now. And if that means I've got to get on the floor, you know, if I've got to get down to their level, if that means we're going to do a push-up together, or we're going to run around or somebody's going to want to sit on my lap or give me a sloppy little hug, then the clothes have to be ready for that. And that's, I would tell my stylist that all the time,

it's like if kids are around, don't put me in something precious. Because you know the minute a child comes, I'm on the floor. I am doing whatever I have to do to connect. And I think that that's when you're no longer conscious. You're no longer self-conscious, right? You're losing yourself and the purpose,

whatever that you used to, you know, or whatever accumulated you to that point that got you prepared once you're in it, that all disappears. That's right. That's right. It should, your self disappears into the work that's important, right?

And when it comes to clothes, the clothes are not, they're never the point for me. You know, I love to look cute. I love a pretty dress. But if I'm in a dress and a child doesn't feel like they can connect to me,

then what's the point? You know, if my dress is saying more than what I'm trying to say to some young person, then get it off of me. It's not, it is not serving me and is no longer important to me, right? And I think that for me, it's children. I think each and every one of us has to find, when we find that thing that is so deep in us, the thing that moves us so much, all the external stuff, how we look, how we move, all that becomes second. to the purpose. And I think that that for me is what helps me stay present and not be self-conscious.

Because if I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, and if I'm changing a life or making a move, if I'm making somebody feel seen, especially a young person, then I don't care what somebody says about me. That seems like a great way to also figure out if you are in fact doing the thing you should be doing. Because maybe if I'm not able to lose myself

in it like that, then it isn't for me to begin with. And again, we don't always all get to live in our purpose, right? Well, let's break that down. I think we strive to live there, but again, reality sets in, right? These are high-class problems. I get to pick and choose now, right? And most of us don't get to live in our purpose. We got to do what we got to do to keep it together. It is hard. That doesn't mean we don't strive for it, but, you know, I don't want to set it up in a way. Like, I know what real life is, right? I know that my father, my father was an artist. My father got a scholarship to the Art Institute. He could have been a great artist, but some of his work is now up at the presidential center, a piece of art that I didn't even know he did.

I didn't see it until it was there. My father was talented, gifted. He was an artist. He did not live in his purpose, right? But he made us his purpose. He made his children his purpose, right? And I think that made him self-conscious. I think it made him forget about his limp.

I think it made him forget about the fact that he was a plu-collar worker. I think it made him forget about all the things. that he didn't have and couldn't get because his purpose was us feeding into me and my brother. And there are a lot of people out there. I mean, I think most people, most of our parents and our grandparents

who don't get to do what they want to do because of racism, limitations, lack of opportunity. They don't get to live their purpose and then we, their offspring, become their purpose. Well, what you just broke down was just so dope as well

because sometimes we assume that what we are gifted with is our purpose, right? We talented, we can sing, we can do this, we can do it, when our purpose actually could be something that is my children or this community center or this, I think that is so important what you said because a lot of times we're taught that value and purpose is predicated on how much attention it brings. Or how much money it makes or how famous you are, right?

That's new to this generation, right? So I think there are many. ways to get lost and to become less self-conscious about the spaces that you're in. If you're going to a job where somebody is treating you badly, but you know that check is going to get your kids a college, there are a lot of people I know who put up with some crazy stuff because they're keeping their eye on the prize. They're not dealing in their own happiness or fulfillment or meaning. I know there are men and women out here today who are getting up going to work at jobs they don't like because it's putting food on the table and

sending their kids to college. It is serving a purpose much bigger than them. How important is it do you think to have an end date on that? I asked this because someone had mentioned that to me the other day when I was stressed, you know, because you know me. I'm unfortunately always trying to do so many things. Yes, child. I'm always got to be a mission. And they were like, well, when's the end date on that? What do you mean the end date on stress? Not on stress, but for instance, is there an end date on this job that they hate? Meaning when I get to year three and I made X amount of doctor,

do you think it is important for us to do that when we're in these situations that may not be that fitting for us where like we have an end date. Look, by March, it's March right now, by August, I'm going to X, Y, and Z. Do you think that's even a fair way to move? I don't, I think we all. have to, what I try to figure out, what I have still tried to figure out is what is my happiness, mine. And I think we all have a different definition for it. What I have learned in all these years with all the powerful tables that I've sat in and all that I've seen, the thing that I know

is that it has nothing to do with how much stuff I have, how much stuff I have, how much. how much, how big a house, how much money is in the bank account, even though there is a number that matters, that makes life a lot easier. I have learned that for me, enough comes when I feel like I have friendship, I have love, I have a good community around me, and I feel like I have given something to somebody else. I don't know that there's an end date on it in terms of the do,

but at some point I have to be settled. I have to say, I am enough. I have done enough. I am okay, you know. That's all an internal struggle. Like the end, we have to figure it out for ourselves, right? I mean, I know. What a doozy.

I know. It's one of those things where it's, It's also tailor-made is what I'm hearing. We're all on our own individual relationship with that. But I think it starts with how we feel about ourselves. You know, I mean, I think we can work for all this external approval, somebody else to tell us that we're beautiful. We could wait and hold our breaths to have somebody else love us enough, you know.

But in the end, the work is really, with us on us. You know, it's the finally sitting in your own head and saying, I don't need anyone else to tell me that I'm worthy. And that's, that is,

it's almost like the look is based on what we see when we look in in the mirror. You know, that's a huge part of it is like accepting our own gaze. Yes. And being happy with what we see. And it's amazing that when we get to that

place, everything else seems to settle down around us, you know? Because I think we're carrying that frequency. We're carrying that energy with us that probably, yeah, just changes the game. And we're starting not to give a, um, about what somebody else says and thinks. And that takes a minute. You know, you earn that wisdom, you know. And that's why Kiki, don't be, don't get impatient with yourself. You're 12 and a half.

I am impatient. You know that. are a baby and some of this stuff, wisdom is for the old. You know, it takes time to go through some stuff. And at 62 years old, I am developing, I'm still growing, still developing some wisdom that, but it's all about how I see me. You know, it is that, it's that gaze of myself, right? Wow.

Wow, that is so awesome. Well, time is coming to an end. I mean, there's so many more things that I can ask you. We got to do a part two, three, four, five, like always. But before we go... Yo, it's ladies' night. There's a lot more coming. You'd be happy to get on with it.

Oh, yeah, they got a lot of fun stuff coming to the stage. This is going to be a good night. But before we leave, you know, I love to play a game. So I thought we could play a fun game. We're going to play a game. Keep it, change it, leave it. Okay. Keep it, change it, leave it.

So it's a little rapid fire. I'm going to give you some prompts. Oh, Lord, I got to be rapid. Oh, Lord. You know, the rapid is always crazy because, like, honestly, how fast do I have to be? Really? You're going to tell me if you want to keep it, change it, leave it. And then you'll tell me a little bit of why, maybe.

Okay. Okay, here we go. The first one is power suits. Keep it. There's nothing wrong with a good power suit, especially if you can wear pants. I hate panty hose. I am done. Pany holes always tear.

Like why they make them so thin and frilly. You know, that's why they mess with us. They make us wear something that you can wear once. It's a dumb thing, dumb invention. Being the first, like the first, you know, carpenter, the first, you know, black female president. Keep it for sure. First lady, I mean. Like, we better be ready for some first.

There's a lot of stuff we didn't get to do. So we want to keep the first. We still have, we got our ways to, we got a lot of stuff we're trying to get in. So we want to definitely keep that. A lot of times people are hauled on the first, but I feel the same way as you do. Let's continue to break down the wars. We're prepared for it. We've been preparing for years to be the first. Perfectionism.

Perfectionism. What was it? Keep it, change it, leave it. I would change it, change the meaning of it. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to do something. your best, but not placing everything, not making that be the reason for everything. I think change what it means. You know, keep it, but change the... Don't let it mean so much.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I took that. That was me personally. Okay. Girl boss culture. Girl boss culture? Yeah, you know, I guess the way I would describe it is like, you know, just this,

idea of being, you know, needing to be a boss, you know, like, oh, I'm a boss, I'm a boss of this or that, you know, the idea around that the best role position is whatever a boss is. Well, I don't know. I don't know if I, I would leave that, right? Because, like, you should be the role that is suited for you. And not everybody wants to be a boss, and that's okay. That's not always the best position. Let me tell you, being a boss sucks sometimes. You know, it's not all that it's cracked up to be. So I would leave it. Yeah, yeah.

I feel you. I agree. Working twice as hard. You kind of said something similar to this with the perfection. I think I know what you might would say. Yeah, look, I would keep it. Because I always think, even if I work twice as hard, even if you don't see it, I'm still better than you.

I still win. I mean, and it's like going to the gym, right? Like, I'm still getting stronger. Right. You know, so what could be wrong about it for me? I'll use that muscle. Okay, just three more. Code switching.

Code switching. I change it. I think it's a tool to have, but there shouldn't be a code we have to switch from. I mean, that's part of what we talk about when it comes to our hair. and how we show up in the world. As long, I want the code to broaden. Yeah. But I do think there are times

when you do need to show up in the way that you need to show up. Yeah. Because that's the job. Or just the translation of language in that moment in time. Exactly. You know, it's like multiple languages.

Protecting your peace. Oh, keep it. Keep it and never let it go. Ever, ever, ever. And then this is the last one. Reinvention. after 50. Oh, keep it, y'all.

Let me tell you, anybody over 50? Anybody over 50? You know this time in life is the best. It is the best. You talk about freedom. That's so exciting. I would keep it. There's a lot of good stuff coming.

I got 20 more years to go. Take your time. But when you get there, let's talk. Because I'll be 70. Yes. I need to be over there with you in some island somewhere. There you. Come on. Come on.

Well, I just thank you so much, Mrs. Obama. Thank you, Kiki. And thank you to Essence for having me. I love you all so, so much. And I love you, Kiki Palmer. And I love you too, Ms. Michelle Obama. Thank you, guys. God bless you.

and we'll see you. Enjoy the rest of your essence.