IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Stay Curious with Debbie Allen and Phylicia Rashad

Episode Date: October 7, 2026

This week, multi-hyphenate sisters Debbie Allen and Phylicia Rashad join the show to discuss growing up in a supportive Houston household, the legacy of education in their family, and the HBCU experience at Howard University. Plus, they talk about Netflix’s reboot of A Different World, and how they developed careers in acting, dancing, producing and directing as two of the most iconic women in show business.In this episode: Dr. Kathleen Jordan, Chief Medical Officer, of Midi Health.Have a question you want answered? Write to us at ⁠imopod.com⁠.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Y'all are beautiful. Aging gracefully, beautifully, elegantly. Untouched, unpooled, unplugged, unfilled, unfilled. Untouched. You are the best. That's the best analogy I've ever heard. I love that. Please put that in so I can copy that again.

That needs to be on a T-shirt somewhere. This episode is brought to you by our sponsor, Midi Health. Well, look who's here. How are you? I have not seen you in a while. I know. And before we really begin, we, you know, everybody noticed that Craig is sporting some rose-colored glasses. It's like, what do you?

Let's see. We have to explain to our audience. So what's going on. You know, when two chains was on, he had those yellow glasses and I was like, I want to be cool, like two chains. Well, you need some chains, too. I know. You just got the glasses. You didn't get the chains.

No, no. So what happened, folks, is I have been having the stye problem with my eye. Yeah. And I'm more self-conscious about it than anyone else. And my wife was like, you can't go do the show like that. Why don't you go get some sunglasses? I'm glad you got glasses on. I mean, that style would be like another host.

Listen, I have gotten so. It's like, welcome to IMO with Craig, Michelle. And the Stai. That's mean. You're doing good? I'm doing well. Mr. Stey. I'm doing well.

I feel good. We've had a great summer. You have two grown men in high school. In high school. IMO listeners. Two adults. Two. And then now two high schoolers.

The boys are in high school, both of them. I know. I know. Large and in charge. I know, I know. And tall and handsome. Yeah, and they're doing stuff. And Austin sporting his twists.

Yeah. Which Malia loved in the family chat. She was like, way to rock the twist. Because when Malia was 10, 11, 8, 9, she wore a twist. So you know. They look alike too with him and those twists. They look alike. They look alike with the twist.

But you know what's next up? What? Yes. Go ahead. Say it. Earing? Yes. That's next on the agenda.

I'm stalling. I'm stalling. What are we stalling for? I don't know. I don't know. What do we think is going to happen? I figure if anybody, any males should get an earring, it should be me before them. Well, why don't you do a joint piercing?

Hey, yeah. IMO listeners, joint piercing, joint piercing, joint piercing. You get a little diamond stud to go with your rose-colored sty covered glasses. You'd be killing it. You're very funny. Very funny. We, yes. Oh, my gosh. Craig is going to do a proper official introduction because our two guests are the queens of the queens of all the queens. And they deserve a complete proper introduction with Craig.

Is going to look at and read thoroughly because we don't want to leave anything out. And they should know there was a lot of discussion about what we should put on there. They're so accomplished. So forgive us if we haven't put everything in there. It was a fight. It was a fight in the production meetings. Get it done. Focus.

So first, Felicia Rashad. Did you all hear that? Felicia Rashad is an accomplished actor and stage director. Yes, she is. Let me aim into the whole introduction. Who became a household name. And I mean household name for her role as Claire Hustable on the NBC. She raised us all.

The Cosby Show. Not only raised us all, but gave such great examples of parenthood. You know, it was, I'm so excited. Okay, finish. I got like goosebumps. It's hot in here. She has also appeared in the Gilded Age. This Is Us and Empire, among other popular television shows.

On stage, Felicia has appeared in a raisin and the sun, into the woods, dream girls, Jim of the Ocean, and The Wiz. Debbie Allen. They're both here. I can't believe they're both here. Is an award-winning actress, dancer, choreographer, singer, director, and producer. She has starred in classics like the 1980s musical drama television series, fame. I'm going to live forever.

And has earned six Emmy Awards, a Golden Globe. We are very silly. I'm so sorry. Five NACP Image Awards, a drama desk. And their first Astaire Award. In 2001, she and her husband, Norm Nixon, founded the nonprofit Debbie Allen Dance Academy in Los Angeles. Felicia and Debbie.

Welcome to our house. So happy to see you. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Debbie, so nice to. Thank you so much for having us. Together. Well, I am so excited that both of you are here together.

I know. That's the best part other than sitting here talking with you guys. Is that she and are together. Look at you two sisters together. Oh my God. Two are the most iconic women in the business. Y'all are, you can't even, it's not triple threat, quadruple threat. quadruple threat. It's like quintuple

threat. It's like it's all the threats that you all are. And award winning, producing, directing, acting, all the stuff. But rarely do you guys sit down together to do

interviews. Yeah. So we feel incredibly honored. Oh, wow. We do too. To have you both here. Why did you Why did you guys choose to sit down together? Because you asked them. Now, she knew that.

She just wanted to make sure. She wanted to hear you say that. Everybody doesn't ask. But once people knew we were coming, my phone was jumping off the hook. Everybody was called. Well, can y'all? No, honey, no baby.

We're going over here first. Then y'all can talk to us after. It's great to be here together. Oh, my goodness. Alicia and I have done a couple of good things together. We did Polly when we did the movie for Disney. And we did the old settler for PBS Presents. It was their first movie.

We got such a rave review. He was playing these two old dowgers living in Harlem together. And she was trying to run off with a young man. That's another story. Okay. Well, we get to all that. You know, the sister bond. We were just talking before we sat down because you were asking about the girls and how they're doing and growing up.

And the thing that I always think about is like they are uniquely close, almost irritatingly so because they live together. But when we're all together as a family, we're all close, they have, they just are like magnets to each other. And when they talk about that, they say, you know, we are the only two who've been through what we've been through, you know. And I think, you know, because it is true, whether we were in Russia visiting the Kremlin or seeing the queen, you know, they're the two little kids in the midst of this trying to make sense of all that was going on. And I think they have a special language and a special sense. sense of understanding of each other. Do you guys have that, is that similar? Your sisterhood, your relationship? Is it that kind of magnetic bond, given that you're both in the same industry? I hadn't considered that.

But Mommy said, she said, the one way, the one thing that will ensure that you will remain very close is that. is that you have the same interests. She said that to me when I was a teenager. As surely as you have the same interests, she said, you would be very close. Was it intentional because of that? Did she put you guys in the same things? Was she trying to make it so?

No, I think what she did was she observed our interests. Alicia was early on singing and acting, acting. out. And I was dancing at like three years old. My brother, Tex was playing the trumpet. And so she was looking for what she always said, leading from behind. Yeah. Which, you know, which was just a thing. So she made sure we, you know, it was always a fight. Because we grew up in that whole Jim Crow era where everything was segregated and just, just fighting to get us the best opportunities to develop. And she also. made sure that we both knew that we better get out here and do something in the world.

She was kind of critical about us using our gifts to do something. What are you going to do? And when did she see your gifts versus when you felt like you had gifts? Very early. Another thing she used to say is if people really understood they would know that their children are their best form of entertainment. It is right. No joke. No joke.

So she was, she had her own interest, you know, she had her own work, but she never neglected observing us, paying attention to us, listening to what we had to say and watching what we would do very naturally. She really thought about that a lot, advocated it for educators as well. So she observed us. She corrected us. Terrorized us. Nurtured us.

Yeah, she saw it very early. She saw it in us as little children. And she would create the avenues for development. She would actually create the avenues. What does that look like? It looks like, I can say this, because I wanted to dance. And schools that were more professional were all segregated. And she says so much.

many time that when I was like eight years old, how am I going to get to be a dance? If I don't get the lessons, Mama, what are you going to do about it? I said that to her. And what she did was she went out and she found this man who had been a retired dancer with the Russian company who was a businessman in Houston and talked him into coming to our house and teaching me ballet. She took the railing off the wall to go upstairs and made it my dance studio, the living room. She created that.

She found a piano teacher for me who was a concert pianist. She would find the people to teach us. She would, and she didn't stop with us. She did it with her grandchildren, too. She would find the people. What was your household like? Because there was Houston, right? Yes.

And then there was a move. But I'm just curious about what did it feel like? in your house. Was there always music? Was there a lot of talking? You know, you said that your mom listened to you and enjoy your voice, which was the same thing as mine, and you guys both met my mom. Yes, she was amazing. You know, and when you talk about your mother and how she watched you all, we felt that, you know, that we were, that my, our parents loved our voice. And they loved engaging with us. And that made a huge difference. I'm just trying to get a feel for what your household was like as a child as children.

There were lots of books. Because when we were children, African American people were allowed to go to the library on Tuesday only in Houston. So mommy found ways to purchase books. So there were, I mean, I go in, I can look at some of these books today. and they take me all the way back to my fourth year as a child because I remember them on the shelf. And there were artists, John Biggers, Joseph Mack, Carol Sims. These were all artists, and they were teaching at Texas Southern University. And they would come to our home and they'd have these great discussions.

And they would get very, talk about drama. And we would be little children hiding up under the coffee table, looking at them going from side to second. It was interesting to us as children, you know. It was amazing to watch Mommy creating her own mythology with these artists. That's what I say, because she wrote this incredible book, Hawk, which is her legacy project about man's transformation to a higher existence. And it was really her story, because she was struggling and fighting to be that hawk.

to live in a higher plane and take her children and everybody she could get to pay attention to go with her. And so what was your mother's story? She was born in Chester, South Carolina. Her father was a blacksmith. Her mother was a student at Hampton University. It was Hampton Institute at the time. They had both grown up in Chester, the families. and that was the Ayers family.

That was my mother's father and Grams, my mother's mother. They lived on that same little block and used to play across the yard, of course, offenses children. And they attended Brainerd Institute, one of those schools established by the Presbytery. In her family at that time, I'd say when she was very young, it was her mother, Vivian, yes, her sister Sarah Mildred,

and the youngest one was Aunt Sunday, Roberta. And my grandmother died when my mother was nine. She contracted tuberculosis, taking care of a family that didn't have anybody to take care of them. And she would go, you know, to help out. And so my grandfather remarried, and he married a beautiful, tall, dark-skinned woman named Bessie. She was a teacher. She was a scholar. She was something else.

And there were three other children. So this is, there was my uncle junior, Robert, and then there was my aunt Bessie, and then the youngest one, Kenny, who was the darling of the family. They all grew up in this house. My memories of this are that was very warm. There was nothing extravagant about it. My grandfather had built it. It's still standing. Wow.

And it was warm. And family was everywhere. You know, real southern kind of thing. Education, education was important. My grandfather was a blacksmith who graduated from Johnson C. Smith College, okay? Yeah. Education, everybody, it was, you did not take it for granted. It was a privilege, yes, but it was also a responsibility to educate yourself. My mother said there was only one thing in the world in her entire life that she was afraid of.

And that was being ignorant. This episode of IMO is brought to you by our sponsor, Midi Health. We're going to talk about a topic that, fortunately, is getting a lot more attention. Yeah. And it's getting more attention and it's impacting a lot of families. Well, I want to invite someone here to help navigate this conversation. And let's bring out Dr. Kathleen Jordan. Dr. Jordan.

So nice. Great to see you. Welcome to IMO. Thank you. Thanks for being on. Let me scoot your chair in if you needed. Yes. Well, thank you for being here. I think in my way of talking about all aspects of my life, it just felt like my menopause journey was a part of that. So I'm just glad that there are more and more women who are sharing their experiences and more medical experts who were weighing in and giving us the guidance that we haven't had for so long. Yeah. I think it's really important that women are talking about it because we're helping each other navigate the many, many challenges that come. You had the joy of meeting that challenge while the whole world watched in the White House. But really, you opened up the conversation, which has been great. And I think it's really important

because this time of life is so filled with changes, right? The hormone changes is not just about hot flashes and night sweats. It really impacts women really greatly. And I always say that what we do about perimenopause and menopause, yes, it makes women feel better in the moment. It helps us navigate our days, but it also impacts our long-term health. There's very real changes. And that's really why I helped found Midi and why we treat all these women at Midi Health. And in addition to being a founder of Midi Health, you are the chief medical officer at Midi Health. Can you tell us what exactly is Midi Health? I'd be delighted. So Midi Health is a telehealth clinic made for women. And we really were founded to really meet the huge care gap for women

in paramedopause and menopause, which means we can help guide women through the hormone conversation. Is it right for them? If it is, what formulation to take. But it's actually a lot bigger than that, right? It's a lot bigger than that. And menopause care is a much broader experience, right? So we help women with skin and hair changes. We help with the bone loss that starts in perimenopause, we now know. Cardiovascular risks go up. Weight goes up, right? That was one of my big experiences.

But libido changes, mood changes. We have more anxiety. We have more depression. We have a lot of challenges. So some women come to Midi with one problem. Maybe they have doctors serving them for all their health needs. They may come just to have the hormone conversation or just to have weight, help with weight or skin and hair.

And then other women haven't seen a doctor in five to ten years since their last baby was born and their baby is now 10, right? Because what we do in these decades, what we do in our 40s, 50s, and 60s really dictates what our 70s, 80s, and hopefully 90s look like. And I think it's really critical. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. I was always surprised at, you know, the notion that as a woman, our health stopped. after childbirth almost. And if you aren't educated or informed,

I mean, I've always been a go-to-the-do-the-do-the-do-the-do-year. I think, you know, we came out of our eight years at the White House with excellent health care, and you work in, you know, you get in that rotation. But I think the point you make that, you know, it's almost like women drop off the face of the health care map after we stop reproducing. And that's, that feels tragic to me.

Middy sounds like it's really made, helped women make it easier for women to get access to care. Well, that was one of the goals. We really wanted women to access care. And to do that, you have to make it easy, right? So we use telehealth. I love telehealth as an access solution. It means you don't have to live near an expert. You don't have to live in a major city even.

We can reach you in any zip code. And then we thought it was really important also to take insurance because for a lot of decades, this kind of expert care was really only available to women who could afford cash pay practices who've provided wonderful care. But really all women deserve this. And we've really worked hard to create a platform that can deliver this care to women. So, Dr. Jordan, tell us how folks can go about getting care, this kind of care. Okay, well, we've worked really hard. to make it as easy as possible. So you can go to our website,

which is joinmini.com. That's join M-I-D-I-D-com. And really the website helps you navigate. You can book an appointment right there. We have availability in all 50 states, and you start your journey there. You can come with one question, one issue, or some women come and just say, what should I do?

And that's join M-I-D-com. That's it. Daddy was Baton Rouge, and we still had this over 90-acre farm that had been given to our ancestors during the Civil War when somehow at that time we protected the slave master's goal and they gave us this property. But it's a legacy to go to Louisiana where we spent our summers going hiding under the house and we didn't have to do chores and going to out. out in the pasture and, you know, singing milk and cows and getting eggs and chickens. I mean, we grew up with that rural. We grew up. Very real family experience.

A lot of cousins. A lot of cousins. A lot of cousins. Aunts and uncles. Yeah. Did you back then feel a pressure to be excellent because of the legacy of accomplishment? at end time when they're, I mean, y'all were doing stuff, folks, probably a lot of folks were doing, but nobody would hear about it. I mean, that feels like a lot of pressure on

you as kids to be, okay. I don't feel that. We grew up, we grew up with teachers who lived in our community and who knew our parents. And they insisted upon excellence, first of all, they said, because you can. Yeah. And second of all, because I know where you live. is. But our biggest pressure was our mother. Mother was looking at, mom was looking at us individually. And she was expecting us to live up to expectation, you know, potential. And as we grew older and older, even like when I went to, by the time I had gone to

that school that wouldn't admit me in Houston and went to my audition for college. And at that audition, they used me to demonstrate, but they didn't accept me. And it was like the biggest blow. when I had to call home and say Daddy's like, all right gal when you're starting, Daddy, they didn't take girls, stop playing. It was so painful. But when I got to the airport,

Mommy met me in tears. And what did she say? She said, Deborah, you failed. She wasn't letting me be a victim. She wasn't going to let me blame this white man that told me I needed to find a different profession. She was putting it on me.

And it took me a while to understand how much she was loving me. I just do want to understand your personalities and birth early. We are the youngest, Dennis. And so I am accused to being bossy. Wait, hold up, hold up. Acused? That's not funny.

That's not funny. Well, Felicia's laughing. You're the only one not laughing. He's like, oh, man. I think there must be something to being the younger person. and to seeing people who are not so older, so much older than you, having a little bit more authority or something. And there's something in the spirit of a human being that won't accept that.

Yes. But wait, wait. It's not only not accepted. So growing up, this was my best friend. She did everything I did. Everything. Sports. running around outside, games.

I mean, everything. And what I can appreciate that I took from mom and dad that I applied to my own children is that just because she was a girl didn't mean she couldn't do certain things. And I was, you know, at the time, I didn't know my parents were so savvy. But as I got older and realized this monster we created, It was smart. It was smart. Well, see, that's a difference because I did the same thing with Felicia, but she didn't like it. I wanted to wear her clothes.

When she left home, I put on her clothes. I wanted to use her bobby pins. I wanted when she had friends over, I'd come in. They'd go, look at a little Deb. And she's cute. And Felicia was like, Mom, get her out of here. Get her out of here. So Felicia really got tired of me.

She wanted me out. But it's interesting, as we grew, the bond just was inseparable. It was like I was a little sister that was annoying, a little bug that needs to go away. Yes. And when did it click? How old were you when you saw each other as friends? Oh. Like, I'm still not sure.

I'm trying to remember. I was going to hear what she said. I was like, I think the year of separation. when I went to Howard and Debbie was still in high school. I think that's when it began. I remember when Debra auditioned for the North Carolina School of the Arts. And it was during the spring break at Howard. So she came to Howard immediately after that audition.

And it was another world for her to see, you know, and experience. And that was good. But I remember her disappointment. I remember how she felt. You see, we had always been number one. Yeah, yeah. You know, and the light of the, and, you know, family understanding your excellence and seeing it,

being in a community that saw your excellence. And then to go out into that world and have them, which you probably knew was unfairly tell you no. Oh, he said to her, she didn't have the body of a dancer that was, after using her to demonstrate all the combinations for everyone else to follow, which would make any young person feel confident that they were accepted, right? Yeah. But so her hurt was very palpable to me.

I had never seen or felt that in my sister before, and it hurt me too. And the pride and the joy in each other is clear. I was watching your acceptance beats for your honorary Oscar, which was beautiful and having the whole family there, you know. And they panned in to your expression. And it was, you might as well have been right up there with her. She does. No competition, no feeling.

Because this is like, I don't, I never felt competitive. competitive with my brother. But I always said, well, maybe that's because he was a boy, and we were so clearly. We had our own lanes. Yeah. But I, you know, my girls don't feel competitive. And I'm just wondering, you know, when, how does that happen or how do you avoid it? And what do you think your mom got right?

Or your parents got right. I think if there was any competition that I felt, I always, felt that Debbie was beautiful and that I was not. And the whole room, all the men were like, what? What? Yeah, the children, young girls said, come on. Yeah, I get it. So it wasn't until we were college graduates, right?

And we are living together in an apartment on 84th Street. And it's Christmas. And this is the first Christmas in our lives where we're not going to be with family other than each other. And neither one of us had steady employment. But there was a little jewelry store around the corner, and we had secretly gone in to buy gifts for each other. And we bought earrings for each other.

Oh, my God. And we did not know. We did not know. So it was Christmas Eve in the night, and we're sitting there with the smoke turkey that our father sent us. So we'd have some semblance of homes. And we're sitting there and, okay, well, I have something for you. And, oh, I have something for you too.

And so we can change the things. And we opened them up. And it was then. And I don't remember what led to the conversation. But I said to Deborah that I had always wanted to be beautiful like her. And she looked at me, she said, but you're the beautiful one. You're the one. I was always trying to be beautiful like you.

Then we broke down and started crying. Crying. Oh, you know. That's not joking with the cats. Just hear that. Oh, true. You know, we grew up with that foolishness. That colorism, foolishness.

Yeah. Because, you know, that brown paper bagged foolishness. And I remember one time Felicia, love chocolate milk. And we were drinking chocolate milk. And my uncle said to her, girl, you better drink all the white milk you can. And wow, that was so ugly.

It was really ugly. And I think that's why Felicia felt. But Felicia looked more like Mama than me. And I wished I was always pretty like her. Always. You see? Always. Well, but that's also a way to keep us girls guessing and feeling insecure about ourselves, too.

Because it's like the notion that an uncle would say anything. I mean, we're really careful about, like, you know, the men in our family, you know, commenting about the girls. You know, even out of love or caring, it's like, don't let it come from your lips, you know. It is a different, don't critique, don't ask. Barack is like, if you got something to say about something they got on, tell me. Exactly. But I want them to feel, both of them to feel like you think. The sun and the moon rises and sets on them because young girls need to feel that from the men in their lives.

in their lives, to, you know, ward off all the ugliness that is out there waiting for us. All the ugliness, the social media of it all is so difficult. I guess I'm very sensitive to it because of the Debbie Allen Dance Academy. I have so many young girls and young people that are bullied or feel lesser or, you know, do whatever. And I just try to make them forget about anybody. And it's why I never did a competition because I want my students to compete with themselves. selves in class. Not with something outside and that, you know, the way you look is not how I accept students in my school.

This whole judgment thing is just, I don't want to diminish that. Those great points. But I- Thanks, Craig. But I, because there's so much stuff we want to talk about, especially Howard. But before we get there, I am. I'm fascinated by the fact that you all moved to Mexico when you were young. And if you can, can you tell us how that came about and how it was and what it did for your development?

I just can't even imagine back then moving to Mexico and living. I know my parents did want. You're getting out of the country. Yeah. We're going to another place. Euclid, let alone Dada, Mexico. Oh, my God.

That's such a great story. Mommy was, she tired of America and the constraints and all the eyes on her and her friend. She, it was not unusual for us to come home

and we had friends that were Indian. Dr. Rao and his family, we learned about vegetarianism. She had a friend Rainier who was a physicist at Rice University, all the artists that came in

out of the house. There was always such diversity. And she got tired of being in a car and being stopped and saying, why is she in the car? You know, that kind of thing or being, or us not being able to go to dance class or whatever it was. And I don't know why she picked Mexico, but she did. And I just remember my daddy crying all the way to the Greyhound bus station. I don't know what your mom is doing. I don't know why. Where is she taking by children? I should turn this car around. Daddy, it's going to be okay. I don't know. And

And we got there and we went to Mexico and it was one of the greatest things that ever happened. I bet. And we didn't know what it was going to be. As I recall, one of the things, the thing that she tired of most was materialism. It wasn't politics. It was materialism and the insistence upon it as a way to live. And she, you know, she knew that that was not the truth of the human spirit. And she was holding herself accountable.

Wow. My mother's thinking, okay? So she walked in the house one day and she said, oh, I have had enough of this materialistic environment. We're moving. Well, that wasn't unusual for us. Right. Because we were moving a lot.

Because we were moved. But we were always staying the same community. Right, right. We didn't have to change schools. We would just change houses. A lot. Like, yeah, right. So we're just like, okay, mom, we were going this time.

We're going to Mexico City. Now, I was 13, and I had plans for the heart. I'm sure you did. And Mexico City was not one of them. I was living. I was going to do a hunger strike. I was going to starve myself to death and she'd be sorry. That lasted all the way to San Antonio.

Then you were like, I'm hungry. I'll tell you. This one. Did you declare the hunger strike? I just did say once again, I wasn't going to tell anybody. I was just going to do it. San Antonio ate everything in sight. We arrived in Mexico City.

We didn't speak a word of Spanish and we didn't know a soul. My mother was fearless. Somehow within herself, this was the right thing to do. And she had a way of attracting good people to her and meeting good people. So it wasn't long before she was in a circle of artists and intellectuals and expatriates and people who were American citizens living in Mexico working, you know, It didn't take her long. She built a community for you.

She was like this. This episode is brought to you by Duluth Trading Company. I'm wearing one of their shirts right now. And hey, granted, I'm not exactly hauling lumber, but this fabric has held up through hours of yard work, home repairs, and whatever do-it-yourself projects, Kelly is hatching. Duluth Trading Company makes gear for people who don't mind rolling up their sleeves.

Everything is built with thoughtful detail. durable construction and comfort that actually lasts. I'm talking about their work pants with smarter storage, their moisture wicking shirts, and their everyday gear that complements your 9 to 5 and your 5 to 9. Duluth has had that Midwestern spirit since they were founded back in 1989 by three innovators on a barge in Duluth, Minnesota. You can feel that practical, no-nonsense attitude in everything they make. They're here for people who, who work their butts off just like they do. Duluth Trading Company, shop online or visit one of their 60 plus stores nationwide today.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, who is committed to helping people move forward and live fully. I remember when I was a first time home buyer, and I knew one thing, and it was that I knew nothing. Mortgages, closing costs, inspections, home insurance, there's a lot to look into. If you're working towards buying your first home, then I really recommend doing all that research. And I'm happy to say there are some programs like Progressives Open the House that make things considerably easier. Through this initiative, Progressive is helping first-time homebuyers overcome some of the biggest barriers to home ownership through helpful tools, educational resources, connections to trusted organizations, and funding opportunities. For a lot of people, buying that first home is about more than owning property. It's about building stability and creating a place that's yours.

And I know that's how it was for me. Learn more about Progressive's commitment to first-time homebuyers at progressive.com slash open the house where you can learn more about common housing challenges and access helpful tools and resources to empower you in your housing journey. This episode of IMO is brought to you by our sponsor, Midi Health. Craig, you would be surprised at how little most women know about the care of our bodies. Yeah. I think it's really important that women are talking about it because we're helping each other navigate the many, many challenges that come.

The hormone changes is not just about hot flashes and night sweats. It really impacts women really greatly. And that's really why I help. found MIDI and why we treat all these women at MIDI Health. Can you tell us what exactly is Midi Health? I'd be delighted. So Midi Health is a telehealth clinic made for women. And we really were founded to really meet the huge care gap for women in perimenopause

and menopause, which means we can help guide women through the hormone conversation. Is it right for them? If it is, what formulation to take. But it's actually a lot bigger than that. We really built it to meet women's needs in midlife. So you can go to our website, which is joinmini.com. That's join M-I-D-I-D-com. And really the website helps you navigate.

You can book an appointment right there. We have availability in all 50 states. And you start your journey there. You can come with one question, one issue, or some women come and just say, what should I do? Did she work? Did your parents work during that period? Yeah. That was her work.

That was her work. And then she dove into everything conquistadores. She was translating Spanish when we came back, translating the works of Los Conquistadores. She, studying the Mayan calendar in depth. In Spanish. This is our mom, even as she continued, or I said say, delved into Greek classical studies at Rice University.

This was our mom. It was like you don't stop learning. You don't stop growing. This is a fantastic world in which we live created by goodness, infinity. You're part of it. Everywhere in the world. This is how she thought and how she lived. How she raised us to be children of the universe.

Every Sunday, the murals of Diego. We saw a reflection of the people in Mexico with the black people in America. We understood there was a connection. And I just think of it as one of the most culturally rich experiences of our lives. Besides that, it was the first time we went to a Woolworths counter and could order lunch. Because at home, we couldn't go. And Felicia and I crept up because they kind of looked up. Because they kind of look brown like us.

So we said, okay, I see what's happening. We went up to the counter. We went up to the counter. We did it hamburger. What do you want to hear it? Hamburger. Oh, hamburger. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that, that, that, two.

Two. Two. Oh, those. We ordered for the first time at a lunch counter where we couldn't do it at home. And it was like, wow, mama was right. Yeah. Mama was right that this that we were going through was not the universe. This where we were in Mexico was getting us to the universe.

That we were part of a universal community, a world that not only accepted us but helped us. I could go to the Ballet Nacional and take class where I couldn't take it at home. I trained and performed and danced right along everybody else. And it was incredible. And Felicia learning Spanish helped you. her book the Cosby show. I'm sure. They were impressed by her Spanish.

All of her acting. They wanted the wife to be bilingual. Yeah. You know. And so I had that skill. Wait, how long were you all there? We were only there for one semester. Like just the whole first semester.

Yeah. That's it. Wait a minute. Then we came back. We came back. My father took one look at us and enrolled us in school. And then Debbie. Sorry.

And my brother was like, what? They're in school. They enrolled. Oh, man. That summer, Mommy went back to collect the things that we had left. So Debbie and Tex, our brother, went, and I stayed with my dad. Well, it's a, you know, your mother understood so much, but the importance of exposure and experience. And that's another thing that, you know, you don't have to go to Mexico.

Mexico to do it? No. But it is, it changes the trajectory of a young person's sense of possibility just to see something else outside of their home, their neighborhood, the same thing. You know, your mother was an extremist in this way. It's like, oh, dad. Yes, she was. But it's, you know, you survived it, too. I mean, there must have been some sense of self-satisfaction that you just did that hard thing.

And it didn't break you. It didn't change you. It didn't define you. I want to hear just a little bit about your dad and your brother and how they navigated being down in the South and how it was different for them back then, if you recall. Well, Daddy was one of 10 children, nine of which survived, and he was the first to go to college. He wasn't the first. After Uncle Lloyd? Uncle Lloyd was the oldest.

No, Velma Lee was the oldest. They were all afforded a college education. They all 10. Our grandfather was a fireman on South Pacific Railroad, and I don't know how he did it. But he determined that all of his children would be college educated. All of them did not. finish. But they were all afforded that opportunity.

And he made that happen for them. So maybe it was that Daddy was the first one to go further because he went to dental school. I just remember him being the first of something. But Daddy was the most handsome man. He and Mommy were the most beautiful couple. Oh my God. When I look at

the pictures of him and them together, it was magical. And Daddy was always so supportive of what we were doing. He didn't always understand. it. But he supported it. I remember when the summer when Felicia was invited to come to the Negro Ensemble in New York, a young girl going out to New York by herself was like, blasphemy to some people. Mom was like, please. Daddy supported it. And it was amazing. Daddy supported every show

that we did. He was so loved, such a gregarious and loving human being, so well loved by the community and his, you know, fraternity with all the other medical professionals. And he catapulted us into that kind of hierarchy of the black community that, you know, he and mom had divorced and he had remarried. How old were you when they divorced? I was probably, what, four, turning five. Yeah, and that was difficult for us. We didn't understand it.

Oh, yeah. You know, we were sent off to stay with our aunt, and I just didn't understand. understand it, and I blame Mommy. Of course. And it wasn't really her fault. Just like little girls. Just like, my daddy don't do no wrong. I know.

Go wrong. And yet, I was kind of a daddy's girl, but it was so clear, Felicia was his favorite. Felicia, she hates to hear this. Because anytime something, he would take Felicia. He wouldn't take, he would, you know this true. I don't know that's true. I remember this because I was left out and I know. And he just loved her.

He loved all of us. But there was something about Felicia. He would take her when he'd come to grab somebody anyway. But he supported his children in a way. He was proud of us. And he was very loving. And he grew up with a family that was very complex, very complex. And very different from him.

Very different from him. It amazed me. And I didn't really consider it. until his funeral, when I sat at the dinner table and looked around as if I was seeing the family for the first time and realizing how very different he was, he was a self-refined man. He was like my mother, he was a person who never stopped educating himself. He was a fellow in the American Academy of Dentistry. And they wrote to say, we wish all of the doctors were as organized as your father. He was a person who loved his family.

Very different from them, but he loved them. How did the divorce impact you? I mean, loving your daddy like that and being that close to your mom, If it doesn't, you know, if you feel comfortable. And before you start, at that time, were there a lot of people getting divorced back then? See, and that's got to be traumatic too because you don't have any sort of reference point. My parents had the good sense and common decency to allow us to love them both. They never played us against the other.

They never used us as tools. or as weapons. So it sounds like not only did they have the common sense and decency to not pit you guys against each other, they had the common sense and decency to have the kind of

relationship that would only nurture you. It's true. As we know, there are situations I know. We just don't understand it. You know, fathers or mothers keeping children from the other parent. It's just so unfair to the

child. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. But we were lucky. Very lucky. One place I would go back to tomorrow is Paris. I loved how you could spend the morning walking around these quiet little side streets, have an incredible savory crepe for lunch, and then suddenly you're in the middle of this huge, bright, bustling city at night. And being a big food person when I travel, I want to try whatever that city does best. Find that out of the way neighborhood spot, maybe order something I've never had before. Paris is the ideal place for that. I could spend a month there and still feel like I barely scratched the surface. Trips like that always make me think about how much of the world I still want to see. Of course, the only problem with having

a long travel wish list is eventually somebody has to pay for it, which got me thinking, If you're heading out on your own adventure or a big concert, game, or festival is bringing travelers to your town, you can list your space on Airbnb while you're away. Instead of letting your place sit empty, you could put it to work, earn some extra income, and give someone a home base to explore your city. They can discover the neighborhoods, local spots, and experiences that make your community special while you put that extra income toward your next adventure. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. If you know me, you know I love sports collectibles, owning a cool piece of sports history, but also the search itself. Collectors know it's all about finding some hidden gem for a price you've never thought you'd get. If you relate to this at all, then you need to be checking out Whatnot.

What Not is the largest dedicated live shopping platform. and it goes way beyond sports collectibles. With whatnot, I can hop on, see what sellers have, find some great deals, and actually talk to people who are just as into this stuff as I am. I came across a mint-conditioned jersey from one of my favorite players and was able to add it to my collection for a much better price than I'd normally see. And buying is just one side of the app. If you're the person sitting on a collection or really anything you think people will want, you can sell on What Not too. There's fashion, beauty, electronics, luxury goods, even cookies. People selling on What Not sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces, and the number of sellers

making over a million dollars a year has doubled. Search What Not, W-H-A-T-N-O-T in the App Store. Download, and you can start selling right away. Okay, huddle up for a second. Fall is here, and I'm I am locked in. Crisp mornings, movie marathons, soft layers, and bombus makes it so much better. Let's talk feet first. Bombas suede moccasins, cushy souls, shearling lining, water-resistant swayed, and the slippers are unreal. Once it gets cold out, I'm not settling for anything less comfortable than that. Inside or outside the house.

Then there's their compression socks, built for travel days, work. workouts or long days on your feet. When I need to recover fast and stay sharp, that's what I reach for. And your sock drawer should have a range. Marino wool for warmth, sweat wicking pairs for training, dressy ones for whatever's on the calendar. Bombas has you set no matter what the day throws at you. Here's my favorite part. For every item you buy, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to someone facing housing and security. One purchase, one donated. Over 200 million donated so far. That's a stat worth getting hyped about. Head over to bombus.com slash IMO and use code IMO for 20% off your first purchase.

That's BOMBAS.com slash IMO, code IMO at checkout. My kitchen has never quite felt completely put together, like it's always felt like something is missing. And then Kelly and I found these striped linen cafe curtains on Wayfair, and the effect has been perfect. Once we realized we wanted some curtains, it was just a matter of typing our ideal item into Wayfair's search bar, and of course they have what we want plus ten other options. Their inventory truly cannot be beat. I especially like being able to look through customer photos and reviews before I decide. That's what sealed the deal for us with our new curtains, as well as all of the other amazing pieces we have from Wayfair

in our house right now. Wayfair has more than 20 million verified five-star reviews, so you can actually see how something looks and works in real people's homes. Find pieces made for real life and get even more of value with Wayfair rewards. Join Wayfair rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to Wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Every home. So Howard days together at Howard. Because your father went, was it just a foregone conclusion?

It was his foregone. Yeah, right. He's like, mm-hmm. Did you apply anywhere else? Oh, yeah. She said, you can apply anywhere you want to. Yeah, good. Knock yourself out.

But you're going to Howard. I tried. They rejected me, and I was grateful years later. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, to be someone. where I could be nurtured and embraced. It was like being that metamorphosis, like becoming a butterfly. Going to Howard was what that was like for me.

Can you talk about that? I mean, because it's important to talk about the values of HBCUs. Yes. Especially now we're at a time where, you know, we don't believe in diversity, D.E.I or whatever. So it's like, okay, let's go back to our schools. First and foremost, I think it's important to recognize. the scholarship

because that's really what it was about. Some of the most incredible professors who had trained some of them, had been educated some of them in predominantly white institutions but would never be hired there. So they taught in historically black institutions. So we were privy to the best of the best.

The best of the best. Oh, my gosh. I think about when I was doing the movie Amistad, how it was the Howard University Library that had so much information that I needed, how it was the faculty at Howard that became my advisors, Eleanor Trailer, incredible faculty. Eleanor Trailer is probably one of the most brilliant minds

living right this moment. Harvard and a lot of schools have tried to pull her, but she has stayed dedicated to the HBCU. She grew up, you know, best friends with Tony Morrison and Dr. Maya Angelou, and that's her click. And so it's very important. The HBCU culture is richer than it ever has been. We're just rebooting a different world. And there's a reason because it's relevant.

That show gave a voice and a face to young black America in a way they hadn't seen like they hadn't. like they hadn't seen on the Cosby Show. Felicia was very responsible for me coming into that because she had been to the set of a different world and firsthand saw what was happening that wasn't right. I mean, it was so interesting because I remember I was a devoted, avid watcher of all of it and a different world. I remember when it changed because it didn't feel authentic.

The first year was not. You know, that first year, it was really kind of like, what college is this? I didn't go to HBCUs, but I had plenty of friends who did, you know. And so can you talk about that and how you knew that a different world needed a little special sauce that it wasn't getting. Hot sauce. It's a hot sauce thing. Well, it was really, I was looking at it through a lens of professionalism. Because all of our work.

in the show we were doing, it was through the lens of professionalism. That's where you're going to present what's authentic. That's the professional thing to do, right? So here I go to do an episode and I just noticed little things about the production staff and the way things are being carried out. And I said, this is not the way. This is not it. And I looked at the script.

and the writing and I said this is not the way this is not the way we do things this is not the highest level of professionalism because in the highest level of professionalism you're going to present authenticity

and you're going to take yourself out of the box a little bit you're going to go a little further if you're talking about an academic environment yes you're going to certainly look at the behavior of young people coming together who don't know each other and what that's all about. But you're not going to leave out academia. It's preach. Hello. Yes. Yeah. There was no classroom experience. If you do,

if you're not talking about that, you're not talking about the truth of the HBCU experience. You're not because scholarship is at the heart of it. Oh yeah, there's the drumline. That's a cultural thing. Right. That's important. But that chapel, that's the heart of it. The scholarship, the academia, that's the heart of it. That's the heart of it that's there for the service to whom, the students. You're bringing forth a generation of humanity that must think broader, must know more. That's not going to happen if you just, you know.

Dealing with some basic stuff. Please, darling, please. So I dare say it was basic until... You know what I was? We're walking around with eggs. So I got the call. Felicia went in and I had been directing fame. And I was just getting ready.

I was offered family ties. That was the next season that I was being offered all of these shows to bring my talent as a director. And Felicia knew about that. And I didn't dismiss anybody. I went in there and did the battle for us. to come together as a family and to write stories that were culturally relevant. That had to do with academia, but just there was no cultural identity to the show. I mean, how do you do at HBCU?

I mean, on plain side, you don't have fraternities. You don't have just, like I said, hot sauce was not on the table. Yes. Literally was not on the table. And so, and then we expanded. I was working so closely with Susan Fales Hill, brilliant writer. and we were like sisters on the ground. We were on the ground, guerrilla warfare.

And I said, where's my Whoopi Goldberg in this cast? And she said, like, yeah, where's our Mary Tal and what? Where is the funny? Where is that chocolate beautiful sister? And we found Chanel Brown. We found Cree Summers. And then I came home one year with a picture of Gary Dordan. And then, you know, we made this show such that by the time we did,

The first A's episode that ever appeared in network television, it wasn't a shock to our community. It reverberated in the industry because advertisers and people were pulling out. But we had already put that footprint, changed the footprint of the show. It's like we're saying something here. Saying something here. You know, we had, I remember the year we did an episode about voter registration when Jesse, Jackson was a viable candidate. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And I called him. He came to the Colonel's house. And I called him. He said, oh, yes, Debbie, I'm coming. I'm coming. And he changed clothes at my house coming out of the airport and came in. And we had also invited George Bush at the same time, but he didn't answer him. But we were taking big steps.

We were, you know, challenging, not challenging. We were doing what was natural to us. Let's just ask everybody to come in and let's see what you have to say. So how did the reboot come about? When was it decided that it's time? We tried, it's like more than 30 years later now. We tried and got very close twice before. Like in 2003 or 12, we tried and we got close, but nobody would say yes to it.

Finally, Ted Serranos. at Netflix said yes. Tom Wernan and I had been knocking on doors. But we had a wonderful time with Netflix because they pushed us to do it with single camera. And that was the right choice. It certainly wasn't my choice because the audience was always a character in the show. But it was the right shorts. So we could see a more three-dimensional world. What was the different world and do a show that now became more dromedy in its execution.

Do you feel like you have the leeway to be as bold as the original? I think we do and I think I'm hoping that we get that second season so we can go even further.

We dealt with a lot of things just from the first episode the financial crisis that's happening at HBCUs what's going on. There's so much to talk about right now. So much that we need to hear the voice.

But it's going to require some bravery, too. It takes bravery on the part of not just me and the writers, but the network has to let go and let us do. And they have been their hope. It's just really we have a wonderful executive, Jasmine Lawson, who went to Spelman herself. And so we'll be looking to her again. I cannot wait.

I cannot wait. On the career trajectory, you both are Broadway sensations. Was that always? Was that the first love? Was that like, we are going to be in theater? Yes. Yes. Yes. We had some predecessors in the family who were dancers. And Broadway was there. And we came as college graduates, and we looked and we saw it and said, yes. But I had never imagined that I would direct, even though Jeffrey Holder did plant that seed. I was an understudy in the WIS.

I understudied Glenda the Good Wish of the South. And one day in rehearsal, he said, every actor should think in terms of becoming a director, producer, every dancer should think in terms of becoming a choreographer, every choreographer should think in terms of becoming a director, a producer. For development, for that continuation of learning that your mother instilled in you. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And to come to the work with that understanding that it's not just, it's got to be deeper.

Yeah. Whatever you do on that stage has to be broader, I think. Yes. And that development really helped me a lot as a director because I understand how to talk to actors. You see, directing is a number of things. It's not about telling somebody where to go and what to do, anybody who do that. But can you open something in someone's understanding? And do it in a way that opens your own. So it's not just you giving the orders. That's dull and boring to me. When I work with people like that, I just look at them.

Is that your mom right there? Yeah. That part of you that just came out? Yeah. So help me understand, because I'm loving this, because it really reminds me of sports. Player versus coach, but watch yourself over there. I'm letting you go. What's harder, directing or acting?

I don't, harder? Or more difficult to become or accomplish? One has a broader scope. One has a broader scope. In acting, it's finding that, for me, the way I approach work, is finding the heart of that character. You know, that's something that's singular and individual to me. And then I'm going to take direction and send that the way I'm being asked to

go. But the director can't tell me that. I have to find that. If I don't find it, it's not found. And when I'm working with actors as a director, that's how I'm looking at them. They have to find that. You know, I can look at you and see what you're doing and make, you know, a suggestion or it informs something in me and looking at this overall production, I think. But the director is not just working with the actor. The director is working with the text, if the director is really real, in my opinion, going deeper into the playwright's intention, trying to understand what that is. With also the understanding that the playwright doesn't necessarily understand all that he or she has written. Because creativity is like that. like that.

Just like that. Well, for me, directing, I started at Howard University. Okay. And my teacher identified me as being a director because I took a story about snow white and wrote a story called Snow Black and changed the whole thing. And she says, wow, Debbie Allen, you are a director. You need to know that. So choreography became a natural progression on fame. I was always paying attention when I was in front of the camera, noticing what they were doing.

I was always paying attention to what was happening. So when I got the job as the choreographer, I was able to design the choreography with the cameras in mind. And the first director of the pilot, when I was trying to explain it to him, Ashley, unfortunately, patted me on my butt and told me, don't worry yourself about the cameras. And I looked at him and I said, okay, I won't. But if you don't listen to what I'm saying to you, you'll be here to three in the morning trying to direct and shoot this dance number. And it will be your last episode. And I said that just the near fight because I felt like I needed to tell him and I wasn't afraid to say it.

I didn't have any women's group or nobody there to stand up with me. I was my mother's child, my sister, sister. And I was standing up. Yeah. Before the day was over, I was calling action and cut. Because you recognized my ability. Yeah. And it wasn't anything, you know, forget the sexism, foolishness.

It was my ability. You're trying to get the job done. So on fame, after I had unraveled the DPs of shooting black and white people together, I got my first offer to direct. They said, we want Debbie. We want Debbie. and I directed that first day and I remember trying to figure out

how I was going to dress wondering what do I need to look like I'll go pay attention to me should I wear something sexy should I go man and I should I wore some pink overalls my lace socks like I usually do and

I was on it in a way that they were not prepared I knew what walls were wild we rap one day at 3.30 they said we want Debbie Allen to direct every show because of the pace at which I work, but also my ability with the cameras. So that just spread into a whole other world for me as a director.

And my understanding of the dramatic narrative from being a classics major at Howard to studying with Udahagan in New York, being one of her best students, I feel. And working with some of the greatest directors, Robbins, Bob Fosse, Donald McAfee, K.L. and Milo's Forman, I mean, I had a sensibility of what I could bring because as an actor, you are looking at it in a different perspective. And if you become a director, you have all of that. So it's lighting. It's costuming. It's intent. What is your action need obstacle in this scene? This one is talking, but who is the most important person in this scene? scene might just be listening.

So the camera does in film what lighting does on stage. Lighting helps tell you where to look what's important. The camera can go into your face or can be here. And then I just have had the most incredible experience becoming a director. And so I just feel so confident as a director. as a director and I'm sure it makes me a better actor

and I still act but the whole experience and the challenge was deep because there were no women when I started nowhere in sight there was maybe a script supervising costume designer all men and so I had to

make sure I could laugh those cowboy jokes I had to make sure that I could hang And had thick skin because you can't be thin skin. Well, on a lighter note, y'all are beautiful. I mean, just gorgeous. I want to talk a bit about aging gracefully, beautifully, elegantly, untouched, un-pulled, unfilled, unflued. Unfilled.

Untouched. You are the best. That's the best analogy I've ever heard. I love that. Please put that in so I can copy that again. That needs to be on a T-shirt somewhere. Unplugged. Untouched.

Oh, my goodness. Don't see it a lot in the business in our stages. How do you all think about it? Well, I know one thing. When I first got to Hollywood, this was up young. young, youthful. The man that was managing me wanted me to go and get my lips reduced. I said, what are you talking about?

And if I've been gullible, not my mother's child, I might have just said, oh, okay. I said, why? He said, well, you know, it would make them smaller. I said, why do I want them to be small? They look like my daddy's lips. Why do I want them to be smaller? This perception of beauty has to start within. Has to start within.

When I took over a different world, one of the first things I did was take everybody's fingernails all, took off their wheat. I said, who do you? Who are you really? Be able to be comfortable in your skin. God made you, you're beautiful. Except the beauty of that, you know, aging gracefully, it's the first thing is to be able to even admit your age. Like, I love my age. I love my age, too.

The older I get, I'm just like, look at what I did. Look at that. Yeah, look at that. Sixty-two. I know. Can you do it? Hello. Hello. I mean, we have friends that are sitting in a corner. You know, all retract. I say, girl, you better go to a museum and go meet your next husband or go do get a date or go to this new concert. You better get out. Go to church, honey. You might keep learning. Get out here in the world. But I like the little lines in my face. I actually do. And I've had a lot of. My friends, much younger than me, going and get this done, that done. And I looked at us and maybe.

My husband said, you touch your face and I swear. Good for him. Grounds for divorce. That's right. He said, I like you. I love you the way you are. Don't you do anything. So it's about self-love and gracefully aging.

And this is the problem. It's in our industry. It's so critical. You know, they'll take your picture in People magazine. I don't want to just give them a business. bad. Okay. They'll take your picture of any of these magazines, but this is what she looked like at 25. Right. Right. And it's just like a horror. It's like a horror. It's like a horror movie. It's like, come on y'all. Did they take the worst picture? The worst pictures. You know?

They put a picture of me one time about how badly I was dressed and it wasn't even me. It wasn't even me. My son was furious. I said, company, it's okay. It's all right. But the industry is cruel. Yeah. It is. It is. And this is why I love seeing shows like when I see Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren in a show together at their age. Yeah.

It's fantastic to me. I love it. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. What routines keep you fresh? Ah.

There's that daily practice of meditation. That's, you know, that's quiet time with oneself, right? Yeah. And then you got to get up and move. You got to be quiet and then you got to move. And move because the body is made and engineered for, design for movement. Yeah. And then, you know, without getting boring, paying attention on what you ingest.

Yes. You know, what you, and I like to explore new things, you know, go to. new restaurants and do it. But they're just, you know, certain foods that I know are agreeable. Yeah. And some are less agreeable. Some are very beneficial. Everything that tastes good is not necessarily beneficial. No, it's not. Get rid of young people as you get older. All the delicious stuff. We had Kevin Hart on and we had a whole conversation about how you can't eat anything as you get older. It's like, oh, my God, there's lemon in that water. Oh, mess me up.

It's like you just, you know, your body is telling you, okay now, can't do that anymore. That's right. Can't do that anymore. And then you try things. Like, I won't say, I'm not going to name and say, okay, I wouldn't try this facial thing, some kind of electronic. Child, I thought I was in the lecture chair. I'm like, oh, no, no. No, I thought it was burning my face.

I said, you don't kill me. Then I did, I tried this pill one time, left me with. scabs all over my face. I say, okay, I'm done. I'm done. I'm going to take these jeans and just, you know, just cocoa butter is natural coconut, you know?

Loci. Loci. Loci. And I find. I'm trying to tell my white friends about lotion. You know? I was like, everybody's like, you're so soft. I'm like, it's lotion, y'all.

And you two need lotion. Part of the showering process is lotion. It goes with the whole cleanliness process. It's shower lotion. Sometimes it's lotion shower lotion. That's how important lotion is. Yeah.

Well, you are doing it right. You are doing it right. And I know you guys have a hard out. And one of the things we like to do is a listener question. Because people, we're IMO, in my opinion. So this is a time where we can give an opinion. to a viewer. So why don't we hear the listener question? I'm in my mid-40s and have been in the same career for about 15 years. However, I long ago realized that it isn't really working for me. I feel

like I'm bored and I'm not that interested in the work. During the pandemic, I took some time to do online courses to explore other paths and found that I loved coding and technology, but at that time, I didn't think of actually switching careers. Now, I'm curious to see what it might be like to pursue a different career path, but I keep feeling too old and far along to make a switch, and starting over in a different career as a total beginner is deeply intimidating to me. I also am worried about jeopardizing the stability that I've worked so hard to build over nearly two decades. I know you both have talked about pivoting, but can you talk specifically about what it means to switch things up in midlife and later in life? How do I balance responsibilities

with risk in a healthy way? Any advice is much appropriate. appreciated. And this is from Linda in her mid-40s in Chicago. Linda, you're a baby mid-40s. That's the first stop at, Linda. I thought you were going to say 70. That's like, oh, she's 40. Okay. Oh, my goodness. You know what? Let me just say this first. Change is the nature of the universe. There's nothing in this universe that is stagnant, moving, constantly changing, rotating, astral dust is penetrating us right this minute. We can't perceive it all the time.

But change is the nature of universe. So it's exciting if you find yourself wanting to kickball change to another style of dance or kickball change to whatever this career is. I think that's exciting. And don't be afraid to be the oldest one. My mom was in classical Greek class. She was 80-something when she went. How old was mommy when she went to? She was not 80.

How was my age? How was mommy? You ruin in the story. I know, I'm sorry, but exaggeration is not going to know. She went off in New Jersey. How was mommy then? Well, she went to, okay, I think she was in her late 60s. 60s going on 70.

Yeah, late 60s. Going on 70. So 40 is a baby. That's all I'm saying. The point is, and when you were young, 70 was like 80. Yeah. When we were young, everybody who was 60. 50 was like 100.

You're 80. You're right. You're right. But, yeah. Yeah. So that was always inspiring to us and mommy was still going to college, still wanting to learn, still pushing the envelope of something different, something new, or expanding her knowledge of whatever it was she's interested in. So this is the nature of the universe and the nature of man is inquiry and being curious. And that will bring change, which is a good thing.

What do I say, Craig? stay curious, be curious. Yes. I'm the one who pivots all the time, so I know what's going on. Yeah. I think your point of view, you know, your in-look is going to determine so much. And if you're approaching anything with so much doubt and fear, okay, that's what you're manifested. You know, don't give up on the creative power of your own thought.

Oh, yeah. Mm. Make it some snaps. I like that. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Don't don't give up on that.

So the truth of the matter is that whatever your career is, right? You kind of created that, right? Mm-hmm. And you can create something else. Yeah. It's your point of view. Yeah. So let's just eliminate the fear and the doubt and see what happens.

Yeah. There you go. There you go. I mean, this is a panel full of people who have had many pivots. I mean, I've been a lawyer, the dean of students, you know, the head of a nonprofit, you know, the vice president. I could go on and on. I have had so many different careers and so many different hats. And every change has led to some real. exponential growth, you know, and I would just keep that in mind. Real growth comes from change. And you have to be a bit humble and you have to be okay not knowing and you have to be okay making mistakes. You know, even something is I've started playing tennis in my adult life. And it takes a lot of time to get a backhand and to get a this. And I just tell my pro, it's like, my God, why can I do this? but I'm used to doing things well, and I think taking up different sports has allowed me to feel humble that, oh, I don't know how to do this, and I'm not supposed to. So let me just be patient, and it takes a lot of hours to learn something new.

So I would just, you know, urge our listener to be patient, you know, not only to have a good attitude and to manifest something powerful, but then you have to be patient with yourself in the process. You're not going to go to the next thing and run it. You got to learn it. You got to fail at it. You got to grow from it. And if she's willing to do that, sky's the limit. Sky's the limit. And I think the only thing I'll add, I'll add because you three have really summed it up,

I want to take a page from your parents. Because at a time when people weren't even using the term lifetime learners, they were lifetime learners. They were ahead of their time. And I've found as I've gotten older, and especially doing this podcast, I mean, I have a blast sitting here messing around with my sister. But learning something brand new at this age has been glorious. And it's hard. It's been hard, but it's been glorious.

I was so happy you all are here. Oh, my God. This was so fun. This was the best. Thanks for inviting us to talk all. I know. I know. I know. So much more. Thank you. But thank you for for being here, for taking the time. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. Refreshing and It's been really neat. Love you both deeply, really deeply. We love you. Thank you. Thank you. You too, Craig. Yes, Craig. See, I get to do a lot of fun stuff hanging out with this one.

Well, good luck on all things to come. Anything exciting, particularly for both of you, all that you want to make sure we know about we got the different world reboot and 800 other things that you're doing. Purpose is going to Los Angeles and then to London. Awesome. Isn't that exciting? Oh, yeah. Fell in love with Carrie Young through that.

Oh, isn't she wonderful? It's just like, what a little dynamo. She's singular. Yes, she is singular. Congratulations on everything you all have done and what you will continue to do. I love you both. Thanks. Thank you so much.

I'm Emmer Greed, host of Aspire with Emmer Creed, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition.

and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Greed, available wherever you get your podcasts.