IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Stop Being Scared of Fighting with Your Partner with Sterling K. Brown and Ryan Michelle Bathe

Episode Date: March 11, 2026

Black power couple, actors, and college sweethearts Ryan Michelle Bathe and Sterling K. Brown share how they’ve maintained their 30+ year relationship when times get tough, and how they’ve learned to manage the highs and lows of working in entertainment. Plus, Ryan and Michelle talk about the reality of women being impacted differently when it comes to supporting family and career. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You know? May I ask you a question that probably cut out of the podcast? No. Oh, yes. Okay. He's like, please.

Yes, you can. To get real for a second because I think Ryan I had this conversation before too. If kids were not a part of the equation in terms of like,

do you think that some of the tough times may have led to a separation that didn't? That's a good question. No, no, no. No, no. Here's what I think.

This episode, episode is brought to you by shift. Hey, little girl. Hi, Craig. Craig you, Craig. How are you? I'm doing pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Once again, still enjoying our new IMO set. I know. Feeling pretty professional here in our new studios.

It's great. It's great. And comfortable. Really comfortable. It is. It is. The offices look great. And they're comfortable and the studio is comfortable. I mean, it's just, it's incredible. And we're not even where we're. going to be. We still got a little more to do. This is just the beginning. Just the beginning. Speaking of comfort, where are you staying in this go around? I'm staying in an Airbnb once again here and really in a nice place that's about 20 minutes away. And listen to this. I had such a good customer service experience. Tell me more.

So, you know, we went to dinner. We had a family get together last night. And Aaron and I, my 13-year-old, we get back to the Airbnb, and the lock is one of these, you know, you got to figure out what the code is and the numbers aren't always the same and I'm like, I mess it up and we'd lock ourselves out. Oh, I didn't know that. Locked ourselves out, called the host.

Uh-huh. Oh, and he was like, oh, just give me a minute. And he was like hit a few buttons and the door opened and we were able to get in as I was about to panic that we were going to be locked out for the night. Really good experience. That's really good. Really good customer experience.

Well, I'm glad you're comfortable that Airbnb is still hooking you up. Yeah, yeah. They're right along with us. A great partnership. So, you know, we're enjoying it and really appreciate it. Well, I am excited, as always, for today's guests. And as folks can see, we've got two chairs here. So before we bring out Sterling, Sterling, Kay Brown,

Ryan, Michelle Bathay, I want to do a little bit of an intro for our newfound friends here. So, well, not so newfound, because you've met Sterling before, but we go way back. Sterling is an Academy Award nominee and a three-time Emmy Award winning actor. That's bad. That's some tough stuff for a brother, you know? He currently stars an executive produces the hit Hulu series Paradise. And let me go on record by saying, you know me, if it's not a sports thing, I'm probably not going to try and sit and binge watch it, right? Yeah, you're pretty limited in that way.

Let me tell you. So in preparation for this, you know, what I try and do, I try and watch a... You hadn't been watching Paradise? I have not been watching Paradise. But let me tell you the story. So I'm watching it. What a stooge. So as part of the research, I start to watch it.

And I'm watching it. And I'm like, huh. Okay, and I get to the end of the first episode. And I was like, all right, let me just real quickly watch the second one. And then it was like, let me just watch the third one. And then I look up and I was supposed to pick Austin up from school. I left the babies. It was like, oh, Jesus, haven't eaten yet.

Now Paradise will do that. It'll mess you up. Man, let's your life up. You go in. And it doesn't. It just like sucked you in. It just sucks you right in. And you can't let go.

and you mad at everybody. And you know, Mia, I'm a real snob because I was watching the first episode. I was like, well, this is just your run of the mill, so and then it got right to the end. And I was like, oh. Okay. Oh, this is different.

Okay. Yes. Okay. All right. But I digress. I digress. Woo. Woo.

And Sterling has also starred in an executive producer. He's the exact. I should be calling him Mr. E.P. when he comes out here. The acclaim. Tulu Limited series, Washington Black. He is also known for his roles in This Is Us, American Fiction, and The People versus OJ Simpson American Crime Story.

Now, Ryan Michelle Bathay recently led the NBC drama series, The End Game and the film Boy in the Wall. My girl. She previously starred in BET's First Wives Club and CBS's All Rise, along with her husband, Sterling K. Brown. Two actors. in the family. Can you imagine two actors? We're going to find out what that's like.

That they host and produces the award-winning podcast. We don't always agree with her husband Sterling Kay Brown. Now that's brave. That's brave. That is brave. And I've been listening. They got me listening to this now. I know, right? They're all in my feed here. I know, right? Sterling and Ryan, please come out. Because we need to, we need to talk through this. And we got to give, we got to give Sterling a little bit more time to come out because he is injured.

Oh, thank you. Yes. Hey guys. Hey guys. I love that you get settled. Sure, sure. Oh, man. Are you okay? First of all. You're comfortable. You're comfortable. You need a pillow. Okay. You know, can we get you some, be here? It's a true honor to be in you all's presence. Oh, it is. You're nice to say. We're just following in your footstall. This is the podcast vets.

My wife was very nervous. She went through how many 51 outfits. Why are you telling on her? Well, because this is how important you all are to us, to the culture, what you mean to everybody.

Like, your sphere of influence is immense and powerful and beautiful, right? And so, thank you. Like, truly. Like, this is a real honor, right? It's hard for me not to be, like, climbing your, walls right now.

And they're like, so this is very good acting. You're doing great. I'm right. You're doing great. You're composed. You're beautiful. Thank you. This is going to be fun.

This is family. Yes. Because we already know all your business. Yeah. You guys are agreeing right now. I really like that. Look at that. You're agreeing on being excited to be here.

Let's hear how sterling ended up in the. Finished shooting season two of paradise. Thank God. It didn't interrupt that. My youngest son is a basketball player, and so his coach invited me to play, like, in a coach's game. It all begins with basketball. With a black man with a birthday, with the tornicillian. It all begins with, and there was a basketball game. Now, see, if you had said we were out there playing golf or something, she would have been like, what? It never happens there. It happens on the basketball court. The sports that it happens the most, Because I've done two ACLs and now this Achilles situation.

The ones I hear basketball, skiing, soccer, tennis. Now I hear, like, the pickleball people. Pickleball is making a chiropractor is rich. Yeah. But I was making a move to the left, like an innocuous step. Felt like somebody stomped on the back of my hill with the spike. And I started yelling. I was like, hey, man, who stepped on my foot?

And they're like, what you're talking about? I was like, hey, just apologize for stepping on my foot. and would be cooped. And they were like, you know what I'm saying? Like, just keep it going to just apologize. And they were like, bro, nobody. Nobody would hear you. And it's that moment when you're like,

you know what happened, you're like, man. Because you've heard that story. You heard that story over and over again. I went to stand up and then I was like, nope. And I scoched my booty off of the court. My team won. I stayed today. Because that.

It was important. That was important. I was important. And then you called me. And you're like, you know that urgent care place you were talking about the other day? It's like Sunday. So what lesson have we learned from this experience? Here we go.

This is interesting. We had this conversation last night where my wife was asking me, are you still going to play? The ultimate wife question after a dumbass injury. There you go. So this is it. Honey, are we still doing this? So this is what I reiterated. Coach, you let me know how you feel about this.

Okay. I'm a man of a certain age, right? I'll be 50 next birthday. Baby. A total baby, right? Sometimes when you talk to people that have given it up, my experience is there's a pervasive mentality of like, I've gotten too old to do XYZ.

I don't like the idea of getting older means that I've gotten old. So while I know I have to amend my game, I may have to do set shots, I may have to take it a little bit easier on defense. I don't like the idea of giving something up because I think that that is a pervasive sort of mentality that I don't want to invade the rest of my life. I like it.

Does that make sense? It does. I'm not trying to be stubborn. No, no, it does. Yes. So how are we about stretching? Very good. Okay.

I stretch. My education part here is like even more stretching. Yes, man. The older we get, the more stretching. What are you laughing about? We're going to talk about I don't know. But I appreciate it.

But I will tell you, I will tell you your thought process about stopping playing. Yeah, no, it's a good one. It's a good one. It's a good one. It's not faulty. You want to play as long as your body

allows you to. And there are Masters League's for guys who are my age. Okay. Still playing. Right. You can play competitively as competitively as you like.

Right. Or as calmly as you like, even if you're just playing three on three. Sure. But what I want to tell my sister, there is a finite number of games in everybody's body. Right. And when you get to yours, you have an Achilles' tear.

Right. Some people will get it at 49. Right. And some people won't get it. Right. It's you cannot prevent what happened to Sterling. Stretching or no stretching. Right. I'm sure your doctor told you.

Yeah. No, it's just one of those things. You know. Stressing is really good. Stretching is important. And also, I'll stretch this too. Stretching is really good for you. Shut up, boy.

I'll say this too, that, like, I've been making this sort of adjustment in terms of how I run from landing on the heel to trying to land midfoot. And I also think that there's something about the tennis shoes that we wear that don't allow the strength of the foot muscles to be strong enough to necessarily support stuff. So I think my foot wasn't strong enough to support what I wanted to do in terms of, and I had to start wearing a thinner. sole shoe. So as I do my recovery, I'll try to work with thinners. So like, when Rye works out, she works out barefoot and I see like, every time I do a little bit of the barefoot workout, I'm like, oh, this hits

different. You know, because you're balanced and the little foot muscles are trying to work them. And I think I need that as I get back. So I'm a very small home gym. I'm not at a gym barefoot because that's nasty. That's nasty. Like, I don't want to say nasty. Can I say nasty? It's nasty. Yeah. So, but, you know, we have a little home

thing. And, and I started. of doing that for that same reason because somebody was like, oh, it's about toe strength. And I was like, well, I don't know how to strengthen a toe. But it's like, you gotta use them. I'll pull on them something. I'll pull on her toes. God's really.

Okay, well, then that gets us to. My marriage bed is under five. Let's go. Oh, my word. He's doing everything he can to. Embarrass me. I'm just telling you now. I'm just telling you now.

We love it. We love it. So tell us about the podcast. Let's start there. What did this come about? How's it going at home after the podcast? This is good. I'll take the second question.

You take the first one. Okay. Okay. So the first, it's weird how it came about. It came about because I really thought to myself, there have to be people out there on the right that I, this was before. Yes.

It was like before before. I said there have to be sane people I can talk to. So I used to follow like David French and a few other people. I even Googled. It was actually when President Obama was saying, you know, don't argue with the trolls in the basement, like try to have face-to-face conversations. And at the time, I was like, I'm going to take that mantle and change my country. And I'm going to start with, you know. So I was like, there's got to be somebody.

I wasn't able to find anybody necessarily. You know, and looked and looked. But I did. I did. I did look. I couldn't find nobody. Did this thing with like chicks on the right? Is that the-

I wasn't going to give them. Yes. It was chicks on the right. I did it. That's a great concept. There was chicks on the right. I like that. And that's who I found initially.

But then they kind of veered more and more right. I was like, oh, God, I got, no, no, no, no. So, and I even reached out to them, like, email because I was like, there's got, this, this has to be able, we have to be able to have these conversations. And I was just convinced. And I could not find it. But I was like, how do we have conversations about things we don't agree on? Right.

Even while agreeing on our basic human. Without them sort of devolving into argumentation, but still staying in the spirit of like there's a give and take. There's a conversation that's not like sort of antagonistic, but like, all right. And a real disagreement. Like a real, like I stand on this side of a thing and you stand on this side of a thing. But it turned out the only person that I could have those. It was my husband. Well, and some people can't have it with their partner.

So. Yeah, they're called husbands. Oh, not that. I got that. But we've known each other for so long that I think. we've, and we're so, we came up with such similarities. We were born the same hospital, both from St. Louis. We were both, you know, very, born to very religious families, you know, very close to our

grandmothers. But then there were so many things within that that were so polar opposite that we've discovered over the years that we can't, obviously, we can't change each other. But what we can change is, but what we can do is learn to sort of. of live a little bit better with those disagreements. And so we were just standing around and, you know, it was the strike. We were in the middle of the strike. And Rye was also looking for a creative outlet that would feel good.

And I've always been sort of reticent to work together. Because Absin's more than reticent. More than reticent, Sterling. You've been very resistant. Absinz makes the heart grow fonder. You know, it's nice to go off to work and come home and be like, how was your day? Oh, this was my day. That's not what you said.

All right. What's your version of that? You said, I don't want you annoying me at work. Do you remember that, Sterling? Do you remember those words? That sounds right. Oh, man. It sounds right, but not like, I want to be.

Not in a bad way. Oh, no, that in a bad way. It's like you should have your space and I should have mine. That's what I'm talking about. You'll understand, Mab. First ladies. My word. This segment sponsored by Ship is all about the comfort of knowing it's handled.

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Well, probably my eight years in the White House for some of the same reasons that you described, you know, I was kind of like the head coach of the office of the first lady and with so much on your plate, you know, moving from one event to the next, I just didn't have the time or the capacity to worry about the details, whether we were going to be on time, who I was talking to at any given moment, you know, what the weather was, how it was supposed to dress. So I had to rely on my team. And it was always a source of comfort to know that my team of people around me were on top of it, making sure that I had everything that I need so that when I entered a room, I could just be me. That feeling of confidence is exactly what we're talking about.

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whenever I'm on the go, something quick and easy that will still keep me satisfied. But with protein bars, it can often feel like you're choosing between taste and nutrition. If it tastes good, You flip the package over and suddenly there's a full paragraph of ingredients you can't pronounce. Artificial sweeteners, low-quality protein, fillers, I might as well just eat a proper dessert. I didn't want to have to choose between tasty and nutritious, so I kept searching until I found Aloha protein bars. Aloha bars are USDA organic and made with ingredients that are actually grown somewhere. That's part of their whole taste that grows philosophy. They use plant-based ingredients grown in the ground, thoughtfully sourced, and built to keep you satisfied.

For example, their peanut butter cup bar has 14 grams of protein, 10 grams of fiber, and only 5 grams of sugar, which is wild considering how delicious it is. It's made with absolutely zero artificial ingredients or fillers, and it has become my go-to-snack. when Kelly isn't stealing them from my bag, that is. So if you're in the mood for something truly craveable and nutritious, try any of Aloha's protein bars. Grab one at your local grocery store or head to aloha.com. But I also thought that the concept for the podcast was something that was really cool and sort of fit with the dynamic of our interplay.

Like we are very Beatrice and Benedict, if you're familiar with much ado about nothing, and just sort of like, there's a verbal sparring that we have naturally that is fun without crossing a line. Every once in a while, we both cross the line and after the podcast, we're going to, hey, listen, man. Did you have to say that part? You're like, oh, I thought we were going to do. And I'm like, no, no, come on. That one hurt.

That one, that one hurts. We have this thing. So we have this thing where, you know, we played a dozen. Me and my kids playing the dozens. And, like, you know, they'll say something. Well, wait, wait, let's explain the dozens. Because we got listeners who are like the dozens. You know, just sort of groaning.

When you're like sort of like making fun of each other but a good spirited sort of thing. It's not meant to hurt, but just sort of like, gentle ribbing. Gentle ribbing. That sometimes gets serious. Sometimes it gets serious. Well, I didn't grow up with the gentle ribbing. Okay, go ahead. So I'm doing it with the fellas or whatnot.

And I'll be like, they be like, you look old, man. I say, your mama old. And they're like, that's your wife. And I'm like, I don't care. But that's just messing with them, right? And so I said something to Ryan. just sort of messing with her to get her to go back. And she goes, that's why your mama has ALS.

And I was like, whoa, man. That's not how old. Ryan, that's not very much. You miss the home. You not understand what is happening between the play for this. Oh, man, she just went right down. Wait a minute. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Hang on. Honey, did you have any brothers growing up? No. She's an only child. That's why.

I do have an older sister, but I did not grow up with my older sister. Oh, my goodness. And I did have cousins, but I'm like, isn't this the game? Me and the boys, me and the boys are all lifted. I'm like, oh. What are you? It didn't quite go down quite like that. All right.

Isn't the point of winning? I think, well, yeah, that did happen. The point is to win me. It's like, I know what will make to take you to your knees. So I'm like, all right. We won't do that with you. What was your version of that approach? My version was that we were going back and forth.

And I had run out of things to say. And then I did, I did. I did. It's not better. Oh, sweetie. I thought, I thought, you were like, everyone had a really bad thing to say. Oh, my goodness. And I didn't want to stop.

That's great. Oh, yeah. That's good. In that arm. I also didn't, I did not know how to do it. Who's done? Everybody go home. Everybody go home.

Everybody go wipe your tears. I know. But no, getting back to my family. Your kids were in the room? Oh, yeah. Oh, that's even better. We're all doing it with each other. You know what I'm saying?

Those did the start. Well, no, they're just like, oh, you know, we can't play with mom. Mom goes dirt. She goes down. Her mom. You know, mom don't know how to play. When they go home, we go away. We go there.

We go there. And Ryan got out the shovel. I'm sorry. She got out of my heart. Oh, man. That's a good one. This is great. Oh, my goodness.

So I said that, we have this dynamic. Yeah. And I also would say that because we've known each other since 18, we'll be celebrating 20 years of marriage in March. There are things at this point in time in our life that we can talk about that we probably couldn't have talked about earlier in the marriage without it feeling like we were reliving it. We can recount it now without reliving it. So it was the right time.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I think you mentioned this on your podcast where it's like you want to sort of give a vulnerable and real portrait of something that, you know, we can't ignore the fact. Oh, goals. Oh, look at them. And it's like you see a certain thing. But it did feel like there was a responsibility there somewhere that we were like, okay.

But we also want people to know. what this really is. You know, it takes work. And we could really talk about, you know, the ways in which we struggled and the ways in which we didn't struggle and the things that, you know, came easy to us and why. And the things that came difficult to us and why. So that people really didn't, you know, really don't think that it's just a, I woke up, found my soulmate.

And every day is just. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Because I don't you find that couples quit too soon? And we've seen this in young people. Now everybody's young, right, to us, but new couples. And part of the reason why I talk about it being hard is not because I don't love my husband and we have a wonderful relationship. We've been married 30 plus years.

Some works, right? But if you don't let people know about the tough times, then I think they quit too soon. I guess it didn't work. That's right. It didn't work. And then you quit too soon. Sure. And that's why I say things like you can go through 10 years, bad years, right, in a 30-year marriage.

And that's still great odds. It's not a bad, you know. And every time I say it, people are like, oh, Lord, I can't do 10. But if you were to play the odds of like, if you could have 10% of heart for 90% of wonderful, you would take that every thousand percent. And that's really the point. The point is that in any long relationship, there are going to be years, months, hours, long periods of time

if you add it all up where things just don't feel right. You don't quit on it. Right. You know, sometimes that means you dig deeper. And if you don't dig deeper, you miss all the stuff on the end, you know. I'm asking you a question that would be cut out of the podcast? No. Oh, yes.

Yes, he can. He's like, please. Yes, she can. To be it real for a second, because I think Ryan and I had this conversation before, too, in terms of the ups and downs, trials in triple eight, I'm missing it, but you know what I'm talking about. If kids were not a part of the equation,

in terms of like, do you think that some of the tough times may have led to a separation that didn't? That's a good question. No, no, no, no. I'd like to think not. Here's what I think. Sometimes without kids, some of the tough times wouldn't happen, right?

And this is why I say, look, it's great when it's just you two, you know? And because there really isn't challenges with division of labor because everybody can be their own individual people. You go off to your movie. Yeah, yeah, we have our separate lives. and then it is romantic, we get back together. The thing that makes that harder is when those beautiful, wonderful, lovely kids that we all want and love, they show up. Yes, ma'am. With their own agendas, you know, with their own needs.

And now it's the first major joint project that you have to do together. Yes. And that's when the hard starts, you know. So I think a lot of our hard was because of the kids, who we love deeply. But I think without it, without them, you know, a lot of the hard things don't come up, all right? Because you can go to the gym all you want when there are no diapers to be changed. You know, you can do whatever you want. You know, who's driving?

Do you know how to make a dental appointment? Do you know how to make a dental appointment? Do you know where they go to the doctor? Do you know their doctor's name? You started it. So don't. You chime in, Cren. What do you got to say to home?

I will say that, see, I've been married twice. Okay. And hopefully that it'll only be twice. Don't say hopefully. I got you. Definitely. Don't say hopefully. No, it will be.

But I will say the difference between the first and the second was that because the first marriage didn't work out. The second marriage, I really intentionally talked about ground rules before getting married. That's good. I mean, look, athletes devote careers to a jump shot. Shoot, shot after shot, years and years and years and years. You have one bad argument, you have one bad year in a marriage. I'm done. And you're done.

Or you have three bad years and you're done. And look, the level of muscle that Barack and I have in our marriage is earned. It's earned over time. And it's only gotten better. And I think that's the point. It gets better. And then if you quit too soon, you rob yourself of the success of the better, the work that goes in. And we've been married 30 years.

We're healthy people. We could be married for another 30 years. That's a long time. And it could be 30 years of absolute bliss. You know, because we've done the work. We've gotten over the hump. Our kids are grown. They're out.

We're looking at each other like, hey. Remember you. Now I'm not mad about anything because I don't need you to do anything for me. You guys are ahead of us because I want to ask these questions. I have questions for you. You guys are actually on our podcast right now. Every once in a while we have these moments about emptiness thing and like the joint venture that you're talking about

and how much time and resource that you spend on these, both two people, right? And then the idea of, like, what happens when that project is over? And have you neglected the time that you need to pour into one another because you've been pouring into these two beautiful people? Like, did you look at each other like, oh, man, now we got to do this again? Or do you feel like you prepared yourselves knowing that the nest was about to be empty and be like, all right, Barack, all right, like, how are we going? we need to make sure that we are straight in this moment.

I think we're still developing that part of ourselves, right? I mean, our youngest graduate, well, she went to college. She's been out for five years, right? My math is always wrong. Gradually from college five years. When I say leave, left for college. Okay, right? Because that's the beginning of the leaving.

Like, you've packed your bags and you're not going to be living here for nine months. That's a good one. For sure. It's a good start, right? Yes. Yes. And they might go in the suitcase. I'm just,

we'll talk. We'll talk to you get there. Because you haven't even gotten through the teen years. No, we're just in the teenage. Oh, Lord, her mercy. Right? We have the 14-year-old is beginning. You know, you'll be ready.

Okay. When it's time. Okay. How's a knowing. Yeah. You're going to be ready. You're going to be ready. But I think it's a new phase for us, which takes time.

Sure. It's going to take, like, we're in a new phase of life. My husband did the hardest job. He reached the top of the thing you could do. Now he's got work to do, individual work to figure out where am I going to be? What do I want to say? Who do I want to be? I'm doing the same thing, right?

That's a whole new assignment, right? That you have to factor in to the newness of now we're doing this. We're back to just me and him. It takes time, is all I'm saying. All of these new stages take time for adjustment. When you guys had, when the boys were infants, you know, when one was just coming out of diapers and that's a whole new phase when, you know, you move from everybody's in a crib to people are walking around. Like that can change the whole nature of your interaction with your partner.

Completely internal. And it takes time. So we think this stuff, this is like really hard, complicated. stuff that you are negotiating with another person. You know? Yes. All I'm saying is like it all takes time and to think that there aren't going to be bumps along the way of each of those phases. Yeah.

Right? This is, okay, wait. So this is interesting. I love this conversation. This is wonderful. This is wonderful, Michelle. Thank you so much. So in my mind, like the question is for the listener in terms of navigating tough times,

and Craig being on a second marriage now. when do tough times become a step too far? What is the deal breaker? Like Ryan, I say for most part, it's like, there are no deal breakers for us. There are just things that we have to negotiate. There are things that we figure out. I say a rather crude thing about,

if you did this very bad thing to me, do you want me to say it? No, I do not. I would embarrass me. Oh, okay. Okay, we don't want to embarrass. It's a scatological humor. Okay.

And I won't go into it. Okay. It is funny, but it's not. It's funny, but it's not. It's funny. It's not for the literate. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

But I was like, if you did this awful thing to me, that would be the deal breaker, right? And it's really something that she would never do. Okay, yes. All guys have an idea of what you're talking about. But my question is then in terms of navigating these difficult times, right? For people who are also in the midst of difficult times, who are probably asking themselves, what's the difficulty that's too much? Obviously, if there's anything that's physical, that's transpiring when they're

inside of a relationship, don't stay in some sort of abuse. And I would say even verbal, psychological, physical, et cetera. Abuse is not something that it's meant to be tolerated. Outside of that, I'm curious, like, do you feel like there are deal breakers or things that you feel like people should walk away from, or everything is meant to just find your way through? I'll start. Please.

Because I will say now in my relationship with Kelly now, Yes. There are probably no deal breakers for me. Sure. She might have some, but there's probably nothing for me. We could probably work through anything that I could think of, aside from your scatological. There you go. But I think we can make our way through it.

But I wouldn't have said that when we first got together. Okay. That's years of work. That's years of talk. That's years of, of, of, of, you know. both going through our own difficulties and coming out of it

and together having difficulties and coming out of it. And you just, you, you emerge at a different level of understanding, a higher, a higher being, a higher just that at a higher level of understanding. That's how I

feel. Sure. It would, it would really have to be something that I couldn't have seen coming that was so bad. But then I would be so worried that what was I in this relationship to make you want to do something that bad? I got to take the responsibility of it. So that's just my own growth over the years.

I love that. I love that. 30 plus years in, I mean, like, he's me. We are so intertwined at this stage in life. Our experiences, our challenges, our family. are, like, he would have to become a different person, like, that I would be like, who took over your body? Sure.

And then we would be going to doctors and we would probably call the FBI, you know, I mean, because I'd have to be like, this is something, something happened to my husband. It's not the same person. And then I'd be worried, like, what is going on? Yeah. Right. I felt that. Raise your hand if you've been putting off a checkup,

a dental cleaning, any kind of doctor's appointment. Yeah, my hands up too. I'll tell myself I'm fine and keep it moving. But we can't take care of business if we're not taking care of our health. This year, we're doing it differently. You know that feeling when you leave a doctor's office and think, they really listened. That's what we're looking for.

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IMO. Zokdoch.com slash IMO. Thanks Zok doc doc for sponsor. answering this message. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed. You know, I've been thinking a lot about careers lately, especially in a job market like this. One thing I've learned is that you really have to think outside the box when it comes to your path. Nothing about my own journey has been linear.

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I think it's so different because Mish didn't meet Barack until later. Right. I didn't meet my first wife until after it. I didn't meet Kelly to way later. Sure. You guys knew each other. Freshman year.

Freshman year and are still together. I want to know how does that happen? How does that happen? What do you have to say to that, Bert? Well, I think because I always look at it, like life kept throwing us back together, you know, and similar to you like, yeah, no, I'm good. Like, we would go away. We would purposefully go away. And life would just keep tossing us back in the state.

Our very first job, we were not speaking. We had just graduated from grad school. And I never forget. Yeah, this was on your first episode. Did it? Did we talk about this on the first episode? No, did we? Did we talk about our first first?

It was an under five on the guiding light. And I remember where I was when they said, you got the job. And I was so excited. It was your first job. I was in one of those, like, you know, those big stores on like 42nd, like, you know, not H&M, but like, you know. VIM. Anyway, your jeans and sneakers store. I was in VIA.

I don't forget because I always wanted to go, you know, it was like, because it's the commercial. So I was in VIM and I was looking at stuff. And they were like, and you got the job. I was like, oh, my God. Yes, I'm on my way. I'm on my way, right? And they're like, and you got your other classmate is in. And I was like, who?

And they said, Sarah Surrey is one of my dear, dear friends. I was like, yes, Sarah Surrey. And another classmate. I was like, oh! And they were like Sterling Brown. And I was like, oh, yeah, I'm here. Yay. Like, we were not speaking.

And we played a husband and wife. That is correct. In a Lamas class on Guiding Light. For sure. Why weren't you all speaking? What happened? Who did what? Were you, was it mad?

I'm not speaking or you just weren't in touch? They sure on and off. Y'all were on and off for the time they met. It was, who know? I think you weren't speaking to me. No, you weren't speaking to me, sir? Facts. Facts. But what I'm saying is, like, we did our last show at NYU,

which was midsummer night's dream. Yes. And I'd see you come off stage. I'm like, yo, man, you just ripped that scene. I just want you to know it was really good. and you just walk. Who asked you, you know what I asked?

You ghosting before there was a term ghosted. Oh, did you do something? You know what she did. Like that's not. But after sustained neglect, I was like, all right, I'm going to stop trying now. So we had stopped talking to each other. So we get on set to do this scene. And she, what happens is anytime she knows that I've pulled away,

she purposefully is like, hey, Sterling, how are you? What's going on? I was like, yeah, that's true. And I was like, hey what's going on, man, how you doing? It's good to see, whatever. So we had to do this scene. And she's sitting in my lap, you know, she's pregnant. I'm holding her up or whatnot.

And the Lamar's destructor is going by. And she said, and dads, you're going to have to look after the mommies. You're going to have to do this and that and give them sponge vats and everything like that. And the line goes, Ryan looks over her shoulder. And she looks at me and she goes, sponge vats? And I look at it and I say all the time. Except when we do our line, She looks at me and she's like, she's touching me and all this stuff.

And I'm like, oh, Lord, please stop touch me. And then she looks at me and she got sponge bath and I look directly in her forehead. Yes. And I said, oh. He couldn't look me in the eye. And you looked over and she could tell. Yes. And I'm doing this.

But the camera could not. Yeah. And I'm doing this in the scene. He's like trying to make it be in the eyes. That's my camera right that. Brown's going to make it look real. Uh-huh. She's like, that's why I'm an actor. That's why I'm here.

Man, she's getting on my nerves. Wait, now, I want to digress. Please. Just for an acting thing, because you, husband and wife, both actors. Yeah. When does the discussion happen about each other doing make-out scenes with someone else? That's a very good question. Well, that's what the man wants to know.

Well, no. I think that's a question. I think the public. Yeah. The public wants to know. I've never heard anyone ask that question. Yep. because either people don't have an opportunity

or they're just like, I'm not going to bring it up. It is acting. And what a lot of people don't realize, it's not as glamorous as you think it is. There's sweat and, like, people are coming to powder you and you have to hit this right angle because the camera can't see something, what have you.

And it's very sort of like choreographed or whatnot. And I always tell the bird, I was like, hey, man, make them look like, you know what's going on. Like, don't let them think that we ain't having a good time. up in this week, you know what I'm saying? We know how to get in there. So, like, you know, don't go out and act. Like, you know what you're doing.

It's what I'm trying to say. Show them you got skills. There's no real jealousy in that sort of arena there because, like, we both have said, like, to do it well, it's not about pretending as much as it is investing in the given circumstances so much that you are living the truth of that character in that time. So you got to fall in love a little bit. And you've got to be attracted a little bit. And that doesn't threaten anything that we have because we know where we sleep at night.

We know who we've made our vows to, et cetera, et cetera. It just means I want you to act well. And hopefully you want me to act well. And that we can, and sometimes, here's the other thing, you can take some of the energy that you got on set and bring that home. And bring that home. Bring that home. Because a lot of people ask that question, how do you do that? How does that?

It's my job. It's her job. And you do it. Have you ever felt? I just don't watch. He doesn't know this, but I just, when the scenes come up, I just close my eyes. Like, I might get some ice cream. Yeah.

I just don't want to. Fast forward. Yeah. I just don't know if I could watch. Yeah. I don't know if I could watch. Yeah. I don't even like watching myself, though.

She doesn't. You know what I mean? Especially in those particular, I don't like watching myself necessarily. I have to because I have to see what I've done wrong or what I did. But, you know, I have to see. see, but certain things, I, I, there are things on First Wives Club that I still haven't watched myself do. I was like, no, I don't need to see that. Like, and for me, I think it's the only way that I can sort of do what you say in terms of like living in that moment.

Yeah. I have to just kind of like, take a deep breath, live in the moment, and then I really just have to let it go. And it has to stay gone for me. Yeah. So I can't, I can't ruminate on the scene. And I can't ruminate on your scenes. And I just have to, you know, I just, I just, I just, I just don't watch. Well, that makes me think, well, like, you guys didn't answer the question, really. It's like, how did, how have you worked through some of the tougher times in your marriage? And does one particular time stand out to you? There are, I, so Craig was saying something earlier about, like, you know, two actors navigating the industry together, right?

And so there's something about, you're going to have your own. take on this and that's fine. And I just ask that you let me finish my take first. We don't always agree. Go ahead. You don't always agree and he is preparing for you not. I just ask that you allow me to finish my take first before

you offer yours. Please and thank you. Appreciate it. There is sometimes this feeling of like all right, when there is momentum happening in one person's career, you have a desire for momentum in your

own careers well. And while you can say and truly believe that like we are doing very well right now, whether it's financially or otherwise, if the other person isn't experiencing something that is validating for them on a personal level, whatever's transpiring for you may feel very separate and distinct. And so I will say that there are times in which I'm like, how do I make sure that my wife feels included and acknowledged and appreciated as there's a certain level of momentum transpiring in my life. And there's varying degrees of success in terms of us feeling connected in it and separate in it. So that's an ongoing thing that I'm navigate after you. I would say. You know, George Burns was asked this question about

his long, you know, Hollywood marriage to Gracie. And, and, you know, And he said, we never fell out of love at the same time. And I can look back at our relationship. And I really do believe that we've, I don't know that that's a deal that we've made or something that's just kind of sustained us. But I don't think we've ever fallen out. And even before we got married, I would say that when one pulled away, the other one was like. Mm-hmm. And when, you know what I mean?

So I don't think we've ever decided at the same time. Yeah. I'm done with you. And so I think that there is something that makes one of us, if not both of us, but at least one of us is always pulling for us. I would agree with that. And so I think that that's at the very, very core, the very, very root of it. We believe in therapy.

Yeah. We very much believe in therapy. I think that that has given us an opportunity to kind of see the forest for the trees. Like what you were talking about is like, okay, you might be. might have some bad years. Like, it's only been six months. Like, let's see what happens when the baby is walking. And then that's a whole other corner, you know,

that literally and figurative that you're going to turn together. I also think that because we have had, we have the children. Again, you'd like to say that, well, no, it's not, we're not just staying for the kids. You'd like to say that. But it is, we do know that there's something bigger. now than just the both of us and whatever is going on at that moment. Yes, I can be very volatile and I can, you know, there would have. Say it again in the microphone.

No, I have not. I heard you. You know, but like you asked, with things that you thought about when you were younger that you wouldn't put up with. Like there is definitely a 19-year-old me that would have had the time of her life with a very dramatic. I'm pecking. That would have been part of the fun, right? Burn the whole, right?

Chase me. Yes, Casey. And girl, you don't want to do this. And, girl, we're going to meet. Where are we going to meet? Like, you know, the whole, I didn't even did that when I was pregnant when I was giving, because I gave birth at home. And I remember there was, you know, stuff going on. Stuff going on.

And I looked in my hand, I was like, it's funny. And I put it on the wall. And I was like, ah, that scream so that I can have the bloody hand print down. Oh, okay. I do remember, Brian. No, I don't remember. This is the only child drama. It was cool.

It's strong. Reach out. I love you. Oh, my God. I love it. So you don't think of some stuff. I really can. I really can.

Ma'am. But I think that I have put a lot of that and said, okay, now, now, now you have, it's not just you. And there's the dramatic moments and all of those things. There is something bigger that's calling you. And it is those 30 years on the other side. It's the children and what we can provide. And it's all of that. And it just feels bigger than just whatever that small moment is.

Or even that big moment. That's not to say that there haven't been big moments. But I think that there's something bigger that calls us to fight for what we have. I'm going to go back and just combine the two things together because it feels like when things are difficult, if we feel as if we are in them together, they are way easier to endure. versus when we feel as if we're separate in it.

You know what I'm saying? Like that's probably the toughest times that we have when we feel like we're going through something as a couple, as a family, and or individually, and we don't feel like we're on the same page. Those are the times that are the most difficult, I would say. Brian, I want to just check in with you on, you know, because you talked about the fact that you sacrificed your career.

to be there for your kids. You made some, you made some choices. That, you know, that is the story of so many women out there. We're still, you know, we, we can talk about being equal partners and so on and so forth, but we give birth. Our bodies change. We are constantly adapting in ways that our partners, our male partners do not have to do it. It's a part of it. And so we wind up saying you can have it all, but not at the same time. Sometimes that's easier said than experienced.

Most of the time it's easier said. Right. I'd love to hear more from you about how you felt through those moments and, you know, how you're, I know you're still dealing in those moments. How is that, how are you coping with that reality? That is an excellent question. Very good question.

Yeah, you know, it, it, gosh, it's a really good question because when you first, when you can see it, I mean, you're pregnant and everything, everybody's like, oh, so excited for the both of you. And then you look down, looking at you, you know what I mean? And you're slowing down and you're changing and you're waddling and this, you know, like, wait a minute. Like, I'm already slower than I had really. bad hypermysis, which is when you just, you know, you're sick, sick and, you know, and then

not, not sharing any of that. He's going to the gym. Going to the gym. I'm going to get a good workout in. And you're like, shut. That makes everybody not. I see this now. This is a universal thing.

And then he tries to tell me, and the baby was brand new. He's in the gym. He's like, but I'm working out outside in the garage. You're welcome. Like, he really felt like he had given me this very magnanimous gift. And I was like, if I could get up from this couch. and beat you into something. Like I would, you know, and again, it's you, you're watching.

And again, you want to be, that's the pull, I think, that a lot of women don't realize. Women don't realize the kind of mother they're going to want to be until the baby shows up. There you go. And you have no idea. No idea. Some women decide, whether it's breastfeeding, whether it's, I want to, whatever it is, you don't know, it's an experiential thing. And when you, all those decisions are made very deeply in your core. And I don't want to say they're made on the fly, but they're made in these sort of like, just the babies here, that's the decision.

And so you had all these plans, right? And everybody told you, girl, you're going to snap back. Girl, all you have to do. Remember, we read them, you just do the cleanse, girl, do the cleanse. And you're like, okay, well, I'll just, and in your mind, you really believe that you're going to just do this cleanse. you're going to pop back, you're going to put that baby in a little pouch and you're just going to, you know, you drop them off somewhere or have somebody else come in. You don't even know how you'll feel about that. You don't know how you're going to feel about that. When you'll be ready for that. You don't know how much is going to cost. Yeah. Ooh, yes. You don't know that the woman that you want to hire was given a signing bonus. Oh, my. I tell the story when I did find a babysitter that was really, really good. And she came to us at everything. I was. back to work. I love this woman. She was a part of our family. Love the girls. And she just needed to make

more money. And we couldn't pay her more money. And she left. And I still feel that her, like, I feel the like, you know, I was losing my real partner in this endeavor. And oh, I wouldn't have thought I would have felt that way about my babysitter. You know, I know. I know. I know. And that sent me spinning, that one thing sent me spinning in a fit of deep desperation that I would have never thought. Well, of course. I mean, and I, having had that experience, I understand. If I had kids, I'd be sitting here go, oh, that sounds, sounds like a lot. You're like, sure?

Is that PTSD? But you have to experience that, you know? Like, Zola is, Zola Palacios is our girl. I call her my sister wife. You know, she and... Shout out to Zoila. Soilita. Zolita.

Hey girl. We love you. We do. We love our zoilas in our lives. We have... Yeah. Because you have that, you know, that... What we grew up with, with that village, the grandparents, like, somebody...

You know, my grandmother never left the house. Somebody was always dropping a child off at that woman's house. And my grandmother was, like, in her 70s and could barely walk. And here, here... I'm like, you got a... Who's time? Where is that? She's like, I got them.

And nobody batted an eyelash. Didn't have a thing and not nearing a socket in the house. You know the little thingies? That's right. Nothing to protect them from themselves. And nobody was worrying about what they, what strain of food they were eating. Whatever grandma gave you. Was totally fine.

She has some fat back and some sauce and a biscuit. And a baby holding on to some kind of bone. It's like, I don't think they should have meat yet. That'd be fine. It was a grandpa. Nobody questioned it, right? You just knew your baby was loved and safe. Yeah, because my grandma matter, you know.

Those communities are gone. We didn't have that. And we're some of the first people who don't have that. And so then we have to hire that and find that. And to your point, it's like losing a, it's not like, it is losing a family member. It is losing a crucial part. And, again, you don't know what you're going to feel and experience until you, you get there. And again, to your point about each season, so now I'm like, okay, well,

it should be getting easier, right? Because they're older and I got a 14-year-old. And I'm like, oh, well, I'll just, let me just, I'm a chauffeur. Let me just, I'm a chauffeur, but I also'm like, I clearly need to ride the bus with you. I clearly need to be in every class. I clearly need to be a because what is a half-man thing? He thinks he can. He told me once, he's like, all I need to do is learn how to use this toaster oven and then I've got it. I've got it. Like, I'm basically a man. And I was like, you don't know the Wi-Fi code.

All I need is a credit card and a driver's license. I can live on my own. He said, he said, all I need you guys to do is take me where I need to go. No, that's a big one. But for that. I'm like, I know who's going to have for school? And he didn't even meanly. He was like, please, just leave me a lot of time.

Take me where I need to go. He did ask me when I was. he was three and he said something. Something was happening. He was three and he was like, why are you always in my business? That's Michael. That's my father.

That's another thing. The thing that you love about this man, you are going to see it in a child. Yes. And then you have to raise that. He's like, oh, Lord, I should have thought this. But every phase is different. And now you're, you know, just when you thought.

Just when you think. Because you didn't know. Again, it's the experience of it. And it's like, and now you see, oh, this is how things can go left. Because you think it's when they're little and you're just pouring in, you're pouring it. Don't you want those days back when they were so in your control and all you had to worry about them was falling and scraping a knee? And now they are in the world, this world. This is a good conversation, guys.

Yeah. You guys are good. No, we're just learning. We were learning from the experts here. I feel the same. I feel like even in a rise approach and I feel you guys are similar, is like we try to enter into everything with a level of curiosity. We're not experts on anything and just hoping to learn.

Like we're all in a process of evolving to become the best form of ourselves. I think in doing that, like there is just sort of like, teach me. Like I'll share a thought and then let's see how it all sort of reverberates in the cipher. That's right. What I love about doing this, aside from getting to spend time with my little sister on a regular basis, is that I learn something new in every conversation. And at this age, to come to work every day and feel like you're learning something new is inspirational. Yeah. Agreed. We agree.

We agree. We all agree. Well, we have a question that we get from our watchers and listeners. Oh, this is good. And this one is from our hometown. Jackie from Chicago. Come on, Chaita. I love Chicago.

Hi, Michelle and Craig, shout out from Chicago. I'm writing to seek your advice about my relationship with my husband of five years. We both teach at the college level and share a deep commitment to education and our students. And much of our connection is built on a love of learning and a belief. in bettering ourselves and the world. However, our creative paths and temperaments are quite different. I work in substance abuse social work, and my husband is a musician and visual artists with a strong creative drive. We each experience our work so differently. My husband tends to experience excited, creative highs surrounding performances, and exhibits, followed by times of withdrawal and low mood

after he's done or between shows. In those times, he's focused on his classes and getting the next show off the ground, but he can seem quiet and distant at home. He kisses me goodnight, tells me he loves me, but doesn't initiate much conversation or interaction. Although I need some creativity with problem solving and my work, I'm not involved in the creative arts at all and don't necessarily experience the same emotional waves. Here's where I need your advice. I sometimes find myself hesitating to ask for intimacy or suggesting going out on a date when my husband is experiencing these moments of just needing to recharge by sitting together quietly watching TV. I worry if I ask for affection or conversation or intimacy during these phases, I'll sound

selfish or insensitive, but if I don't speak up, I start to feel disconnected and dissatisfied. I want to be a supportive partner during his creative slums, but I also need to feel seen and wanted, and I miss the closeness that comes from shared moments out or together in bed. How can I best balance his need for space and creative slums? solitude with my own needs for intimacy, affection, and quality time. How do I show up as a good partner who values his mental health and well-being without losing sight of what I want and need in our relationship? Thanks so much for all your great work. I tell Jackie to get out of my marriage. Welcome to IMO. What? Jacqueline!

Because here's the thing. And you'll probably say the same thing, possibly or not. I I think I'm Jackie. Are you Jackie? I think I'm Jackie. Ryan's like, I'm Jackie. That's what I was about to say. That's why I was like, you may feel the same rain. But she asked you guys, so you guys...

No, she's asking the table. She's asking the table. I mean, I'll start on it because, like, I feel like we had a conversation kind of like this last night. Oh, wow. Tell us more. Are you okay, Ryan? Yeah, okay. I wonder where he's going.

No, but it was about sort of... of for me understanding the nature between acceptance and resignation in terms of like this is what it is like what to fight to change and what to accept in its current status and be at peace with and like the difference between acceptance and resignation as far as I can conceive of in this moment is acceptance has a certain level of peace and resignation has a certain level of sorrow. And sort of like what, when to fight, when not to fight, when to yield, etc. So I can say this and you step in, please, because this, I want a back and forth on this one because it'll feel better. Okay. My experience of Rye when she is working versus when she is not working

is very different. And there is a level of just sort of like joy and because there's a certain level of fulfillment from coming to do because she's enjoying doing the thing that she's wanted to do what she wants to do, right? And so we ride a wave sometimes. We ride a wave sometimes. And do you feel closer when she's in that joy? Yeah. Okay. Hands on. So the not working part you describe as that's Ryan's slump. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Greed, disagree. I mean, you speak on it because I don't want to go too far. Yeah. I'm back to Jackie. Come on.

I was trying to destroy. Is she talking about the times when her husband is not working at all on something creative? Or is she talking about the low that comes from like coming off of stage, right? Because that's a real thing. Like you come off stage and you have this high from doing whatever it is. And then you come off and you're just. buzzing and then you kind of go into a slump either like immediately after. So I'm trying to discern as she talking about he's had this incredible emotional high. He's come off stage and now

he's home and he's like, like feeling the after effects of that. And that's when she wants to sort of step in or is it he's been on a creative journey, had a wonderful time and then he's in between creative journeys. So I'm... I read it as the latter. The latter. But that's how I And so that's a good question. That's how I interpreted it because it sounds like, you know, those periods, you know, because the after stage, I need a day is a different emotional, would create a different emotional instability for Jackie than I haven't. I'm not in my element for a year or months, right?

Right, right, right, right. And that could lead to the kind of disconnection that she's talking about. So I interpreted it as these are, you know, there are periods in a creative person's life when things aren't coming, things aren't jelling. And he seems, her, Jackie's partner seems to get really low and disconnected. That's how I'm reading it. Okay. Okay. Thank you for that clarification.

This is a very difficult question. You know, I think that there has to be, well, we, you know, we already said that your happiness is your own responsibility, right? And I don't want to tell Jackie necessarily to go do her own thing. But I do think that there is something about creating structures around these times, especially if you know that these are times that happen if I'm not sure in their relationship because she mentioned that they were both professors. So I'm wondering if they can, it might be easier for them to create structures around this because maybe there are like set points in a year where he's like, I just finished a show or, you know, something like that. So maybe it's helpful. I hope this is helpful for Jackie to set up those

structures when she knows he needs a couple of weeks and maybe put a timer on it. You know, Jennifer Aniston said something that I love. She said that. her therapist told her you get a year to grieve this, like to the day. Like, and it starts now. Now you're on the clock. And when that year is up, that's, we're done. And I do think that there's something, too, that maybe there's something to giving him two and a half weeks, three weeks. And she knows those three weeks are coming so she can set up her own life, her own, you know, not say she should go on a vacation. Although Jackie, if you go on a vacation, that's not the worst idea. But maybe there's a way that she can

know that these things are coming, he can have his time. And then when those three weeks are up, he has to re-engage with her. So maybe both of them can have what they need. And he may not understand that this, he may not even know what's happening. Because it's just his, how life has been for him. And now he has to contend with another person. And his way of dealing with it doesn't, it just doesn't work. Yeah. I latch on to the question of should I, communicate these thoughts. That's Jackie was asking. And I would say, yes, you communicate to your partner how this is making you feel because

maybe you don't feel like you're in a safe space. But I think at the very core, I would say, Jackie, it is not helpful for you to hold on to these feelings and not involve your partner in this challenge. And it may be better to do it in a time where he's. up, you know, rather than piling on at a time when he's perhaps already emotionally vulnerable. So thinking ahead to like, okay, you know, assuming that all else is fine and they're not teetering on the brink, that she's got to remember how she feels when times are good, you know, or remember the bad times when times are good, because sometimes it's hard to have a conversation when everything

is a tough conversation when everything is good. Right. But it might be necessary for her to say, hey, you're winning. Look at you. You just created this and now you're coming home. Now, let's talk about last month. You know, I didn't want to share this with you, but, you know, I don't even know if you notice, but when things aren't going well for you, you tend to show up in this way.

It makes me feel this and feel that. Can we talk about that? do you see it in the same way? You know, because she also wants to get a sense of what is, what is he really feeling? She's interpreting what she thinks he's feeling if she hasn't asked. So she's got to give him some space to say, right, wrong. Yes.

You know, no, that's not it. Or, ooh, spot on. And then in that moment, let's talk through this. Let's talk through a plan. And this, I think this, Ryan, is where the plan of, can we get some agreement now that if we, if we both agree that we're doing, you're doing this and that it's making me feel this way, how can we resolve it? And is there a period of time? Is there a signal? Is there a word? Is there a, or do we set up a structure that no matter what? We're always going to go on a date night once a month. We're always going to mark the box when we are intimate. We're going to, we're just going to practice our way through your bad. that time. But that's got to be a joint. Yes. Yeah, because he may not know. He may not even realize, especially if this is something that he's been doing, you know, before they got married. So it may be a complete blind spot for him. It might be a blind spot, Jackie.

Might be a blind spot. But that's good. So we got some points for Jackie. And I think it starts with the communication part. You have to communicate it. And then. And she shouldn't feel guilty. or feel like she should hold on to it. Yeah, there's some other issues there if she doesn't feel like she can communicate. There's something I think that may not have been fully articulated that was part of our conversation in terms of what you said, man, if you make a bid for connection and you feel as if that bid for connection gets rejected, then it's like, then what do you do? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's like, oh, boy, it's like playing double-dutch sometimes.

Like, when do I get in with this cat to try to make this connection? And if you got hit by the rope, you're like, ah, damn, coming up. Didn't get in at the right time. You got to be blunt, though. Yeah. You have to be blunt if that happens. Speak on to.

In my experience, you can't tiptoe into the rope, right? Or if you tiptoe into the rope, you know you're going to get hit. But if you go in confidently and bluntly, you're going to jump right in and get your steps down. That is good. Maybe that's what she needs. She just needs the confidence to bowl. say what her truth is. Or I need to have

a deeper conversation about what's going on here. And that gets to the negotiation, which gets to your structures. I mean, I love the structure. I'm a structure person. You have 30 points, yeah. Coach me. Coach me up. Yeah. Yeah.

And I will do what I can. But, you know, and sometimes in these relationships, and I don't want to get too far afield, I want Jackie to hear those three points. Sure. But I also want to talk about how Jackie can't be one of these folks who gets upset because the guy is like, coach me up.

She doesn't want him to say coach me up. She wants him to figure it out on his own. You expect people to read your mind is what you're talking about. Can't expect people to read your mind, which is why you got to go in bluntly. Okay. That's why you got to go on. Well, and then you've got to also acknowledge that for Jackie,

expressing her intimacy needs could feel, it could feel risky. She may make her feel vulnerable. I mean, sometimes asking for having to ask, you know, that might tap into some insecurities about her. It's like maybe I'm not worthy. Maybe I, you know. So, you know, sometimes that,

that I want you to read my mind stuff is about, like, don't make me say it. Come on, empathy. Like, don't make me say it because it's hard for me. And I feel unsafe. And this is where you've got to know your partner. Because what's their history of safety and intimacy? I am Jackie. You know.

Starling. You guys had someone on your podcast who was talking about the edge of vulnerability, like finding the edge in terms of the vulnerability. with your partner. And I feel like this is like... That was Orna. Orna, yes. And this is very much that. Like, she is really...

Jackie sounds like she's at the edge. You know, to your point about like, well, there's something there that's very scary for her. And she's at that edge and, like, teetering, you know. Yeah. But I think she's... She may feel unsafe. Sterling is feeling it.

I'm like, okay. You need to hold your hand. I'll take it. I take it. No, just let it go. You are good enough. Listen. Ryan's like, please, boy.

Oh, my love. I think Jackie is, she chose this partner for a reason. And I think she should remember that and remember that she may feel unsafe. But I think, I'd like to believe that she might be safer than she realized. You know now. You know what? You are not Jackie. You are not Jackie.

Jackie is Jackie. You are sterile. Leave Jackie. I'm every woman. It's all in me. Now, wait. I hope Jackie knows we're not taking her thing lightly. No, she got some good direction here.

Now, I want to, before we move on to the IMO segment, the social segment. Yes, sir. You two met each other before today, but you didn't get a chance to tell me about that. You've been rubbing it in for years. It's been like 12, 13 years. Until, yes, for years. I did a show called Army Wives on Lifetime. And there was, I believe it was like a luncheon for military spouses, et cetera.

And you invited the cast of Army Wives because we were on the air at the time. And it was like an episode of King's. The receiving line. Everybody's in the receiving line, and all the ladies are coming through. And Madam First Lady was like, nice to meet you. Thank you for coming. Thank you for your son. And Brown got up there, and I was like, can I have a hug?

And she said, boy, please. And we just, it was like, lock. The arms were out. The guns were showing. I was like, bird. Guess who hugged me today? A real hug. Not, the first lady held me in her arms.

And I felt loved and seen and appreciated it. And Ryan looked at me like, are you, she was so mad. And the more I shared, the more angry she became, and then the more I shared. I was like she hugged me close. Not even right. So did you, did you commemorate that the? It was one of the great days of my life. So I know my sister wanted to come out.

Oh! You have it! You have it! Watch your Achilles. You not hurt yourself. I wasn't lying. That's a jerk! You guys!

This is like the greatest way of my life, but you're going to take a picture after this and then you'll be fine. We are going to. We are going to. get a copy of that so that Miche signs it for you. I remember that moment too, Sterling.

I do. I do. It was one of the things, one of our strategies with joining forces, our effort to support military families was working with Hollywood runners and writers to really, you know, reward and uplift shows that were shining a light on military families

and also get writers to put them into scripts in ways that were normal, because most people don't understand that struggle. Right. So your show was, you know, one of the leading ones. And we thought a lot of the military wives and moms were watching it. Yes. So we were like, this would be a fun moment.

So it was really special. I think my mom was probably there too at that luncheon. But it was really, and the fact that the cast and crew took the time to come to the White House to help honor those women who were sacrificing and serving. It was really good. And I see the belt. I remember all the belts. Yeah, those belts, you can't miss those belts.

You cannot miss them. I don't know if you can come in on my camera. But this happened. Like, bro, you think I'd just be making stuff up? Brown don't be making some. That was the point. Brown don't make stuff up. This happens.

Thank you all very, very. So silly. The sweetest thing ever. Are you kidding me? Well, we can't wait. Well, before we go, because, you know, you guys will be working together again. Yes, we will. Sort of a bit on the next season of Paradise.

One of my favorite shows, I am there. Thank you. I am, you know, this, Johnny come lately. I'm late to the party. Johnny come lately. When you're ready. You know, it's much better when I can just breeze through. Well, sometimes I just let them pile.

up. I do you. I just, it's a psychological. No, it's psychological discipline because I just can't. I need to. Psychological discipline. It is. No, I agree. Can I say this last part to end?

Because I was talking on, that was us. I do a rewatch podcast, but this is us. I was saying this about my wife. And I would put you, Madam First Lady, in the same category. And I'm sure if and when your husband gets a chance to hear this, he'll echo. There is one of the greatest gifts you can give to someone. who has not fully realized their potential at that time is to say yes to them in their current set of circumstances and just believe that this is an individual that regardless if they

have all the trappings that come along with what I want success or what I think success or what society says success should look like, I still choose you. That is one of the most like emboldening and like wonderful feelings that you can ever have in life. So to both of you, I say thank you. Because it means a lot. It means a lot. Yeah.

That's a mic drop there. Really? Aw. Aren't you cute? And that's why we stay. They're just so cute. I know. And they say things like that.

It's like, oh. Well, this has been fun. Yes. This has been great. You had a great time. Oh, you too. This is great. Thank you.

We really appreciate y'all. And, right. They're trying to keep us apart. No more. No more. It's a pleasure. Same, same, same, same.