IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Support with Compassion with Dwyane Wade and Gabrielle Union

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

Former basketball player Dwyane Wade and actress Gabrielle Union join the podcast to answer a listener question about supporting their sibling’s child through a hard time. The group discusses how to build healthy communication strategies with siblings in adulthood, how to offer meaningful help while respecting boundaries, and what a spouse can do to support their partner's family during hard times.Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's a gab way. There's a gab way. And what is the gab way? The right way. The most... Right. Right. No, it's the gap way and then it's the other way.

That's what it is. I think about efficiency. I agree. I agree. How do we solve the problem in the shortest amount of time? This episode is brought to you by Colagard and Chase Home Lending. We're back. Hey, what's happening?

Hoodie. Go hoodie. Go hoodie. Thank you. You know, this is you trying to style it up here. This is not me trying to style it. This is Kelly and Austin trying to style me up. Oh, yeah?

Is that an outfit picked out by your younger? By my 15-year-old. Anything you time you see me with a hood on, that means Austin had a hand in the decision-making process. So hood is. Hood is Austin. Adds an extra layer of. It's just trying to get me to be like a 15-year-old. He's trying to keep his old dad looking young.

It's like so you don't come up to the game coaching like, whose grandfather is that? That's right. It's like, no, that's my dad. He's got a hoodie on. So he's cool. But now you're looking sharp. I feel good. I got a good night's sleep in the Airbnb last night.

And, you know, I'm staying. I stayed in the one in West Hollywood that I stayed in last time. So this is becoming your usual pat. Yes. And then I came to find out this was one of their featured. places and I see why because once you stay there you want to keep coming back. So what do you mean it's one of their featured places? Like they have featured. They have these spots where people rated high enough like this is a favorite place for a lot of people and I see why. So you're taking up

space. So I might be but I'm you think you want to their high in. I'm trying to become one of their high end customers. But that's the beauty of Airbnb. You got all these different levels because I don't think when my kids, because they use Airbnb B&Bs a lot. They're not, they can't afford to stay in the nicer, higher-ranked places. So what makes this place so nice? Well, aside from the fact that three bedrooms and it's only one of me and two bathrooms, it's got two pools and a jacuzzi. Very comfortable. I got a good night's sleep. You know, I'm usually two hours ahead, so I went to bed early, woke up in the middle of the night. Check my notes because I was excited about Duane and Gabrielle being here. I don't know. It's going to be a fun conversation. Yes. Yeah,

they're like old friends, so it's going to be good. But this show is about sibling relationship. And you know what people ask me all the time about you is what our relationship was like in college. Yeah, because we went to the same college. We did. We went to Princeton together. And Two years apart. And so we overlapped for two years. And I would say that it was sort of a normal relationship. I think I was more worried about you than mom would have liked me to be. But that's kind of usually what I do.

Yeah, you were always kind of a warrior. But we didn't hang, hang out together. No, it wasn't like we were going to the pub drinking beers together. But whenever there was a party, we were usually both there together. And what people may not know about you is that you were a DJ. Correct. Craigie Craig on the mic. You were Craigie Craig.

I was Craigie Craig. So that was also another cool thing because the handful of parties that we had, which were always at the Third World Center, you and who else did you DJ with? With Steve Mills. Steve Mills. Steve Williams. Basketball team. Yeah.

And William Murphy. Yeah, that's right. So what did you all, were your crew called something? It was called, oh my gosh, it was called the Playboy crew. Oh. And we had these, we had these orange jackets. Why? Because that's what people did back then.

Were you all the Playboys? No, well, you know, I wasn't a playboy, but we might have had a couple of Playboy crew. Yeah, yeah, we were the Playboy crew. We DJed most of the parties that took place while we were there. So that was pretty cool, having your big brother on the mic, Craigie Craig on the mic. So that was kind of cool. So I think, you know, I mean, mom and dad raised us to be close but independent.

Yeah. You know, and I think as a result, that's how it played out at college for us. I mean, you were not one to interfere in my love life. You weren't, although some people said that guys were a little less, they were a little cautious about stepping up because of you. And it wasn't anything I would say or do. No, no. I think your presence was there. Your presence was there.

But I didn't feel any different when you graduated. But, you know, I feel fortunate to have to have had you with me. I think as difficult of a transition as Princeton could have been for me coming from public school, being a black kid from the inner city, I think having you there really, you know, help give me a level of confidence. and just sort of a kind of a place to land. Because every now and then we'd go out to dinner, or if you ever got invited by some Princeton booster to go to dinner, which the basketball team got,

you had sort of wealthy donors who kind of looked out for you. You would always bring me to these dinners. And I remember one dinner we went to at some older couple's house. The George's, Mr. and Mrs. George. And they served artichokes. Yes. Do you remember that dinner? I remember how to you.

We had never had artichokes before. Imagine these two kids from the south side of Chicago were sitting in some big house in Princeton, New Jersey. I don't know where we were. You know, we had table manners, but the first course was artichokes. I mean, and... We had no idea what we were doing.

And I thought, because an artichoke looks like a cactus. Yes, it looks like it would stick you if you touched it. And then they, they, I mean, it's like you thought, is this a joke, you know, of all things to feed? two black kids from the inner city. You go to start with artichokes? Really? You know, but they told us about pulling the leaves off.

And then scraping the... Scraping the little bit of artichoke, which I was like, on the leaf of an artichoke, there is nothing there. So I'm like, what are we doing? We're just sucking on, you dip it in some butter and lemon, and you suck on it. And I was like, this is a joke.

This is a joke. They're eating like plastic. It looked like a plastic. plant. I don't even remember what else they served, but I remember that artichet. I couldn't, I think I was lost after that artichoke. He could steak outside on a wood burning fire. Don't remember that. I just remember that artichote. Yeah. Well. But anyway, so, so it was good. It was a good experience, and I think that as a result, it affected the way we, our relationship into our adulthood. And I think we're talking about that to be. We're talking about conflict resolution with siblings and as adults, which is a totally different thing.

Yeah, I mean, you know, when we were little, we just duped it out. I just hit you in the back. That's right. You just hit me and I couldn't hit you back. And that was the thing. It seemed fair to me. Yeah, yeah. But as we've gotten into adulthood, though, we, I mean, you know, we don't have many conflicts.

No, no, we don't. So, I mean, if we were to have. any kind of conflict, how to resolve it, we'd just talk it over, right? I would think so, but it would depend on what it was, unfortunately. But we can get into that in a moment, but we got some guests. We have some guests, and I am so excited with these two. And like I said at the outset, this is like having family on.

First, we've got, well, we've got Gabrielle Union and Dwayne Wade. And I want to start with Gabrielle. She's an actress and executive producer, an activist, and best-selling author. She began her acting career in the 1990s and is known for her roles in films like Bring It On, 10 Things I Hate About You, The Perfect Find, and The Inspection, which I'm trying to see it. Is there anything on there I haven't seen? I haven't seen the inspection yet. Okay, you got time. And then there's my good, my man, Dwayne.

Wade, who's a former professional basketball player who's in the Hall of Fame and named to the top 75 players of all time. He won three National Basketball Association Championships in 2006, 2012, and 2013. The ultimate power couple. As a member of the Miami Heat, he and Gabrielle Union have been married since 2014. and Duane tried to dunk on me at the president's birthday party when we were, when we were together. He doesn't remember this, of course, because he tries to dunk on everybody. But he tried to catch a body on me, and I just kind of tiptoed out of the way. So we can talk about that a little bit.

So you technically weren't dunked on because you just moved out of the way. I just tiptoed right out of the way because I could see the look. And he had business in his mind when he was coming toward me. So we have Gabrielle Union and Dwayne Way. Come on out, gang. Welcome to IMO. That's all right. That's all right.

Yeah. I think that's some of the best advice for not getting a dunked on. Step aside. Step aside. Hey, y'all. Hi. Welcome to IMO. How are you guys doing?

Good. It's been like an eventful 2025 so far. So half of it is just hang on. It's just like, where are we now? Where are we, what are we doing? But yeah, through it all, we've got jokes. Yep. Like, thank God for humor.

We got jokes. Yeah. Yeah, we just keep coming back to family. We keep finding our, finding new ways to family. You know, we have new projects. We bought a place up in, up where the farm country area meets the water. So what's happening? We need silence in our life.

Oh, yeah, yeah. In a place where we can just, there's not as many distractions. Yeah. Where we can just kind of have real quality time. That's very little cell service. And so nobody's on their phones like that. Yeah. Can't get any service.

So we're just really turning to each other. So, yeah. That's been good, though. That's awesome. That's awesome. So you guys now are old married couple. I mean, it goes, you get close to. You get close to.

To me and Barack. No, no, no, no. We're 10 years in. I heard you say that you had 10 years when you didn't even like Barack, so I'm like, man. Where is that coming? You know, it's like you have these periods, right?

And if you're married for 30 years, you know, like you just look at the odds. If you're going to be married 30 years and somebody told you a third of those times wouldn't be great, you'd still take the odds. You'd take those odds. Those are great odds. The point being is that marriage is beautiful, but it's difficult.

And you don't just walk away in the difficult times because you miss all the beauty. Because you don't, because you think it's got to be perfect, you know. And it is never perfect. It just is. It just is. It just is. And you keep going. You know, we had the fires, right?

And so I'm always that person who, like, I stay in a place of I wish a such and such would, right? So I think of every worst case scenario at all times, right? I know the escape routes. I know what I'm going to do. I know what I'm going to say. I'm ready, right? Yeah, yeah. Welcome to the club.

Right? And then there's a fire. The fire breaks out because, you know, first day, of course, he was like, let's all pack a bag. We'll put the suitcase by the door. First day comes, we don't actually evacuate. So he starts taking a couple things out that you need. Second day comes, we don't actually evacuate. Now, there's more things out.

Third day, it's like midday. It doesn't seem like we're going to evacuate. I'm looking out the window, and I see this plume of white smoke. So I Google, what does white smoke mean? And it says, new fire. But I'm kind of in shock, right? You can see it. I can see it.

It looks like it's on the other side of our neighbors. It's close. And it's not in the direction of any other fire. So I'm on all the apps. I'm like, did we miss a fire that started? It had just started. Literally just started. And I'm just looking out the window.

And this guy comes home and he's like, it's go time. It's go time. And I'm like, I was in shock. But he turned into Liam Neeson. He turned into Liam Neeson. I was jarred, but I still couldn't move. I was slowly getting my medication like, What is going to go time?

And he's like, what? You do it? What does go time? They say you have a plan until you get hit in the mouth. I heard a plan. Everybody have a game plan until they get hit in the mouth. At that point, we got hit in the mouth. And it was like a quick moment of hesitation.

Yeah. And then it was like, no, no, no, it's go time. We got to go. So I might have said it with a little. Oh, like. It's a little bass in your voice. Yeah. It's got time.

It was time to go. It was time to go. It was like, okay. I'm thinking about all the family. We got to go. Yeah. Yeah. You thought about, like, which cars, right?

Because you're thinking if we come back to nothing, you know, like at least the adults in our household, it's me, Dee, and my little sister who helps us raise cops. He pulls out the three most expensive cars. I've driven, me and my sister have driven none of it. That's like, I don't, we don't even know how to operate. I don't know how to turn on the radio. We don't know where exactly we're evacuated, just north. Like, me and Tracy are like, we're in, you know, these cars.

And both of us are thinking, what is he? his deductible. If I crash this thing, like, how much is it going to cost? I couldn't, like, it was, oh, but this man with a plan. Yeah. And in the end, in those times, it's like, you have family. Because as many

people, as I've talked about, we have a number of friends who were affected by the fire. And, you know, we have the question, when it's go time, what do you take? Right? And for so many people, when they looked at the stuff, what they really took was a little bit of,

a lot of nothing. It was like, in the end, you just wanted to get out with the people that you love. I don't know if you guys felt that way, but a lot of people had clarity about their stuff and what really mattered in this instance when everything could be gone. You know, the only thing I thought about that I didn't take, and I didn't take a lot, but really the photos and the pictures on the walls, the memories in the moments. I know we have our iPhones and we have photos all in there, but it's a lot of photos that you cannot get back. And when I came back to the house, I was like, I would have missed really, really miss these.

So that would be the one thing I would go back and say, get all the photos off the walls. This segment is brought to you by Chase Home Lending, who is committed to helping people in all communities gain confidence in the home buying process. You know, Mish, we've had a number of questions from young people about where they should be putting down roots. Can you talk about the importance of community and support networks when putting down roots and buying a home? Oh, yeah, absolutely. In fact, the very first home you remember that Barack and I bought was a condominium on Southside Chicago in Hyde Park in Eastview Park. And one of the primary selling features of us choosing that home was that it was literally five doors down from the home that, you had bought. That's right. So it meant a lot for us to be able to be close to you as new homebuyers.

You guys had just got married. You and Janice and you had just had Avery or? Avery. Avery was a baby when we moved in there and all of those homes were condos, right? So they were like apartments, but they were two and three bedroom places that were perfect for. A fresh start or a first start in home buying. And community for us as a family unit. I mean, we all lived very close from each other. Not everybody in our extended family were home owners. Some people rented.

But renting near people that you loved when we grew up. It was like when we grew up. Yeah. We were around the corner from two grandparents. And we were probably- We lived above Aunt Robbie. We lived above our Aunt Robbie. And we lived about.

15 minute drive from our paternal grandparents. So we were used to being close to each other. And we could lean on each other. So in addition to dealing with the new burdens of being homeowners, it was good to have family close by, you know, do the proverbial dropping by for a cup of sugar, you know, having some ready-made babysitters on hand. Yeah, yeah.

And shoot, we have a different. situation, but the same kind of community that we are providing for our younger kids, and I'm doing it in a different way. I'm in the community coaching their sports. And that is a great way to meet new people, to have the kids socialize with different kind of folks that they don't go to school with. I've also spoken at the kids' schools. I have participated. in their field day activities, but it's really important. To invest in the communities that you live and are investing to buy a home. Yeah, yeah.

And, I mean, I got to imagine it was hard for you to accomplish this when you were in the White House. How did you do that? Well, it's still being a part of the broader Washington, D.C. community was important on a number of different levels. I mean, I wanted the broader community to feel like they had some connection to what was going on behind the gates of the White House. So, for example, every time we had a state dinner, we made sure to invite local school groups, local classrooms to come for the day, to join in the welcoming ceremony for the country leader that was coming in. We would work with local public schools to have them come in and taste the dinner. and sit down and see the table setting so that a lot of kids growing up in the inner city would understand that right down the street from them, and right in their backyard was this amazing

diplomatic exchange. But if we didn't invite them in, they wouldn't understand what all the hubbub was. So we did our very best, even in the White House, to continue having an investment in our broader community and not just in the world. It was a priority for us. as it should be for any homeowner. Thanks to Chase Home Lending for sponsoring this segment. Having the right support when finding a home is so important, and Chase Home Lending helps people at every stage of the home ownership journey, from first-time buyers to those relocating for new opportunities.

They are committed to helping people in all communities gain confidence in the home buying process. Because owning a home isn't just about, having a place to live, it's about building a brighter future for you and your family. Ready to take that first step? Learn more at chase.com slash start. Member FDIC, Equal Housing Opportunity. So you, Gabby, you said your sisters with you. Yeah. So are you guys close as an extended family, you know?

Let's talk about that. I see my little sister as a little sister. Like, we are seven years apart. Like, there's three of us girls. Mm-hmm. Me and my older sister are four. And then seven. So we were related, but we weren't really in the house at the same time.

We were not going through the same milestones at the same time. So she's like just this little sister in my mind. They're closer to the same age. So he sees her as way more capable and, you know, way more, I shouldn't say important because she's important, but like, she's just a little sister. Adult, like, yes, she's an adult to him. She's a little sister to me. And he values my little sister like no other.

I never thought I'll live with someone's sister. That's right. I mean, and, you know, like, me and my little sister, we deal with so much with our, you know, with our family. Yeah. You know, both of our parents are, you know, they're older, many health issues, dealing with insurance, dealing with who's going where, who's covering, you know, Social Security hasn't kicked in,

so we don't have caregiver relief and who's doing what and how. I'm very meticulous, very anal. There's a right way and there's a wrong way. There's zero gray. And my little sister lives in a place of varying colors of gray. And so, you know, it's hard when you're under stress and you're like, well, why didn't you do this, this and this? And he's like, but she did it.

It just wasn't how you wanted it done. Yeah, it's a cab way. there's a gab way. And then it's the other way. The right way. The most efficient way. No, it's the gap way and then it's the other way. That's what it is.

I think about efficiency. I agree. I agree. How do we solve the problem in the shortest amount of time? But yeah, I mean, and she just has a different way of moving through life. And she's way more positive. The glass is not only half full. It is spilling over even when there's cobwebs in the glass.

So we just approach life differently. And when you add in stressors, it's a challenge because we wake up to each other. We haven't done that, you know, in a billion years. And it's like, and I want to send her a strongly worded email. Like I would send my older sister because she doesn't live at our house. But she's there. She is at breakfast. And I'm like, are you just going to eat those?

Over avocado. You know, like, just going to eat that. Avocado toast. You just not responding to the family group chat. Okay, okay. You know what I mean? But, you know, we're just going to be. We figure it out.

But he's the translator. That's what I was bus to say. And you, how are you in the middle of all this? I'm the common factor of all of this. Yeah. And so I'm not. But I, you know, I understand the dynamics. And, you know, I also understand the Scorpio's that's in my house.

Yeah. Oh. They're both Scorpio. Oh. But different kind of Scorpios. But I understand them a little bit. And so I think for me is just really taking time. I've really took a lot of time to get a lot of time.

to know her sister. Like, hey, late at night, let's have a conversation. Let's get a drink. You know, let's go to lunch, rise to school with our daughter. Like, just trying to get to know the person. And, you know, not look at her as her little sister and all the things she says about having a little sister. Because I understand. And so I'm just, you know, the one to say, well, look at it this way.

Because y'all are so polar opposites. And, you know, she's never going to be, never going to do it how you want it done. And so, you know, sometimes you've got to take. you know, you got to move on the other side and perspective. It's important. Well, not many men could live with their sister-in-law. You know? Talk to them.

I mean, you know, I mean, yeah. And I'm interested, so how's your relationship with your sister? Yeah. Compared to with. And vice versa. Yeah. Well, my relationship, I have four sisters, very different ages. One that I'm really, really close with

because we have the same mother and father. Okay. And so our relationship is great. She raised me. It's a respect factor there on both sides. My other sisters are, you know, we have same mom, different dads, and things of the nature.

So I give them space, and they give me space. And when they don't give me space, I give them more space. All right, well said. Yeah, I give them more space. But I think, you know, one thing, and it comes with a little bit of the position that I'm in where, you know, I've been

the leader of the family in a lot of ways, right, because of this position. And so my relationship with my sister's become a little, you know, different because sometimes it become dependent on. And that changes the brother-sister relationship when you have to depend on, you know, each other, and especially in the financial way in all these other ways. And so, you know, I give that space because I'm like the parent. I'm like, you know what? Think about that. And think about that ask a little bit. Yeah, right. Let's sit on that for a moment.

So, yeah. And what about you? That age difference, like, between him and his next oldest sister, you and Trigiller would. Like five years. Five years apart. So when I first met his family, the older sisters who are closer in my age, immediately.

They got it. Good. Yeah, we're good in the hood. But like with Trigil, because that's, she has been the protector. She has been the watchdog. She has been the gatekeeper to keep him sane and to keep him, you know, doing everything he needs to do without interference from anybody. And I'm like, but I'm not, I'm not just, I'm not just having to be his wife. And I think, you know, before I got to the wife stage, like, when we were just like, you know, the very beginning.

And it was like, you know, I think him, you know, Tragil and his mom were like, what do you want? Who are you? Who are you? You older lady. What do you want? You know, what do you want? You cougar, Crable, like, rod, right? Yeah, like, what are you?

Cradle rodding. You know, but I was like, actually, we both just got divorced. So we're kind of in a same space. Like, I didn't have a kid at 20. Like, I'm still trackless. And I'm not racing to do that. So I'm straight. I got my own bank count.

So I'm good. I just like him. You know, we'll see where it goes. But it took some years, really, to, like, you know, earn their trust. And then also for them to earn my trust. So we can be comfortable equally. Right. And now, like, yeah, it's easy because we are all on the same side.

So he, his mom and his sister, Grigel, we tend to have the same complaints about the same things that we then want to take to him. And how do you not see this? See me and your mama and your sister. Like, you know. But now you got some allies. She got reinforcements now.

Yeah. And once she got married, once his sister Trigil got married, now, you know, now it's like, oh. You know, because she's coming into a relationship where he'd been married before when he has kids. And I was like, ha,

not so easy is it? Not so easy is it? You know, but you, you know, you want that grace, you give that grace and eventually you receive that grace. So, yeah, yeah. But it's a learning curve for sure. Hey, everybody.

Craig Robinson here, as you know, when we do these podcast recordings in L.A., I always ask my wife to get an Airbnb for me, but most importantly, I want the ones that are guest favorites for my stay. These are the most loved homes by other guests on Airbnb. And, you know, we've got some trips as a family set up for our kids' AAU basketball tournaments, and they're in small towns all over the country.

And we always book guest favorites when we go places that we haven't been before. That way, you make sure you get something that the other guests find really appealing. So when you are planning your next trip, try guest favorites. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Colagard, a non-invasive colon cancer screening test. As it stands, colon cancer is on the rise in people under 50, which is why the American Cancer Society recommends that if you're at average risk, you begin screening at 45. Even if you live a healthy lifestyle and don't have symptoms, no one is at low risk for colon cancer. We want to make sure our listeners know that colon cancer can be treatable in nine out of

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Families that, you know, complicated. That's a perfect segue to the listener question. because Charlotte needs a little bit of help with her sister. And Natalie, do you mind reading the question for us? Yeah, I got a short little story, so bear with me. Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Charlotte, and I live in Tacoma, Washington. My sister and I have lived in the same city as one another since college, and have always been close.

We are both married with teenage kids. My sister's daughter is a couple of years younger than my kids. I love my niece, but she has been really challenging for my sister to parent. She has a ton of anger and is in therapy for it, but she takes a lot of these feelings out on my sister. She's also much meaner to her mom than her dad, and I suspect it's been hard on my sister's marriage. I wouldn't be surprised if the stress at home is affecting my sister at work or in her other close relationships. Which brings me to my role in this. For a long time, my sister talked to me about the fight she was having with my niece. But in the past year, she's gotten noticeably distant. She avoids

talking about anything going on in her family, and she's acted closed off and even standoffish if I go there. She's also been making increasingly rude comments at my expense, which I recognize is coming from stress, but it's still hurtful. So my question is, how do I support my sister, her family, and her daughter, especially when my sister won't even let me in? Do I allow things to stay surface level for a while and wait for it to get better? Or do I try to try to find a different way to talk to her. Is there anything different I can do to support her or even her daughter better while also protecting our bond? Thanks, Charlotte. Well, that's a question. So it sounds like Charlotte knows that there's something wrong. And my question is, let's back up

and figure out, is it better to hit questions head on or beat around the bush and sort of subtly get to the answer? Right between the eyes. I, like, let's just, just get to it. Let's get to it. Nobody has, you know, oodles and noodles of time these days. You know, we all have families. Let me know because it could be something, you could fix on a dime. Could be something you're just not really aware of. Could be your tone. Things you can adjust. But in this situation, I first would want to hear her sister's version of this. I want to hear from the sister's husband because it doesn't sound like the sister has a lot of support. But I would also say that it's probably way worse than what her sister has shared.

And it sounds like it has gotten to a place where it is so humiliating and so embarrassing and so hurtful that it's embarrassing to share that, especially if Charlotte's daughter is, you know, like doesn't have a lot of problems. It just sounds like you're imagining a judgment that is not happening. Or maybe it is. That's another question that we would probably have for Charlotte's sister. You know what I mean? So you are like, I bet you they're judging me because that's how you're really thinking about yourself. So I would rather keep distance than feel your judgmental eyes or whatever it is that, you know, the sister is imagining that Charlotte's doing.

Well, and like you make a good point. We don't know the age dynamic is who's older, who's younger. You know, there's probably some history there of, you know, what. that relationship has been. So, you know. And like her taking shots at Charlotte, we got to turn this around because there's too much heat on me. There's too much heat on me. And I'm going to redirect it where I think the judgment is coming from.

Yeah. Except Charlotte's like, she feels like she's just taking strays because she's just trying to be supportive. But it's the assumption of judgment and, you know, ridicule and whatever that is happening to me and the sister's mind. But in this situation, my advice would be you got to pull your sister aside and have the conversations you didn't have because this is when bad dynamics get in the way of the future, right? Because it's, you know, whatever is fueling that thing that's keeping Charlotte and her sister from being able to just have a straight up conversation, a kind of, even though those conversations are hard. I mean, look, when Craig was going through his divorce from his first wife, I've said this time and time again, he did not tell me that they were having problems. He didn't, you know, I thought they were the Cosbys, you know, I literally, so I went from, and I was close to my first sister-in-law, right? We were, we lived down the street from one another.

So sometimes things are bad, and it's just, as my brother said, he didn't. want to pull us in because he didn't want us to start judging and if things worked out and so on and so forth. If things worked out, she would never get over it. But that wouldn't have been the case. I might have been mad, you know, but that's why you need to have those conversations. Yeah, right. Because it would have been better for him to come to me and say, Mish, you know, I'm going to share something with you. But, you know, I need you to keep a cool head because I have to have a safe place to come. We've since had that conversation. And I think, think this is why in his second marriage, you know, we've approached the dynamic of brother and sister

differently and our communication is different because I don't want him to ever think that he could be in any kind of harm and that I would judge him. I might, you know, I don't know how I'm going to react. If somebody's messing with my brother, my first reaction is buck up, you know. I can't say that I'm not going to be that way, but I'd rather, like, let me get through that, you know, so that we can then step in and have the conversation. That's why that dynamic is important, because when stuff like this happens, you need your family. Because Charlotte could be part of the solution to help her sister just be another voice at the table for her niece, you know, because sometimes you can hear, you can hear from somebody else, which you cannot hear from your own parents, which is why the

village is so important, you know. So I would say, sit your sister down, if you can, try, try push through that pain or whatever it is and help her know that she can share with you whatever it is without judgment and you're there to help. I was in Utah and I had speech to do. I thought I did well. I'm sure you did. And then your sister came out. And, I realized that they was crying when she got done. You see that answer she just had? Yeah. That's how I felt in Utah.

My perspective, I think we all could be right on our perspectives. And my will come from an angle of watching my sister-in-law when she's around her sister, also to my relationship with my sister. Sometimes you've got to take it all the way back to the basics. And the basics to me is focus on your relationship just with your sister. Sometimes you just need your sister. you know, and provide that safe spaces as being a sister, not being not being, not being, you know, anyone who brings judgment,

just be that person that she can come to you and she want to talk to because y'all have history and similar background. So I think sometimes when I see Tracy light up, it's when her and gap are just being sisters, just not being unty, it's not you doing this, not doing that, it's when they're just hanging out of sisters. And that allows for you to want to open up more so than, feeling judgment from someone or with all these, you know, these emotions that we go through.

And so I was just say, Charlotte, just be a sister, you know, like you guys were when you grew up before. It was husbands and kids and all the things. You guys, y'all was your sisters. Maybe more would come out then. This makes me wonder, though, is it ever okay as a sibling to go around your sibling and go directly to their kid and talk to them? or maybe go around the sibling and talk to her husband, Charlotte's husband, a brother-in-law. Is that ever a good idea?

And I can tell the gab, I see the gab face. That's not for me. I mean, listen, if you really think someone is suffering, I will try everything that I'm going to go directly to you. And if I feel like I'm getting shut down, but I still feel like, oh, you're circling the drain. Like it could get to a danger zone. I will try every avenue to reach you, whether it be through a mutual friend, another relative.

You know, we have a group chat that we call the sanity crew. And it's, you know, three of us couples. And we could take it to the sanity crew. Yeah, I like that. Or I can go to anyone else in the sanity crew and be like, this is what's happening with me and D. Yeah. Can you talk to him? Because I don't think either I'm not hearing him.

or I don't, because I don't get it. Is there anything that you can do? So I'm not above doing that at all, especially if it gets into like that danger zone where they're kind of cutting off from everything. And, you know, like when you're left to circle the drain on your own, it can get dark fast. But also I'm okay with space.

Like let's give it a beat. And maybe she is being inundated, not just by her sister, but by everyone who is a witness to this. And just a beat. And then just say, hey, you want to go get a drink. You want to go, you know, go to a museum. Just you want to sit in the park. I'll go get some subs.

And then it kind of takes the pressure off at having to be about your kid or whatever, my perceived lack of support from her husband. Yeah, kind of getting back to just, you know. But also space, you know. Like I don't, like, if I feel like my back it's to the wall, give me a minute. Yeah.

Maybe a few weeks. Yeah. Yeah. So I can figure this out. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I, I like what you said about just sometimes being with people, you know. And it sounds like this family, Charlotte's family, they spend a lot of time together because

they're having meals on a regular basis. They're in one another's homes, enough that she sees what's happening with her niece. But when I think about what I might do in that situation, I would probably be cautious about saying something, especially if I'd gotten some pushback. But I would probably try to spend more time with my niece if I could. That just sort of, just like be a sister is like maybe just be an auntie too, you know. So it doesn't feel like you're addressing a problem, but maybe this is a cry for help. And so maybe I can take her to lunch or maybe I can just pick her up and do something that seems innocuous or fun where maybe this girl will open up to me in a different way where she doesn't feel watched. Or if you set up a regular session with her like let's go get our nails done.

I'm just thinking, you know, you're 12. Auntie, I'm going to take you, we're going to do something you like. I bet she likes getting her nails done, especially if she's being sassy. She probably got acrylics, you know? So let's go. Sounds like that girl's got acrylics. So go take her to, she's snapping her nails at you. I bet she's got some nails to snap.

So take her to get her nails done, you know, and sit and see if you can, in a natural, just sort of being way, find out what's going on with your niece. I try to do that. I don't do it as much with your younger boys because I'm not with them as much. But with the older kids, when we were in the White House, his older two, we'd always, whenever they could,

they would go on trips with us in the White House. We would always make it a point to, because the thought was, okay, we got these kids growing up in the White House and being on the world stage, they should know something about the world, Right. So usually on their breaks, that's when we would plan a big trip.

You know, that's when we went to see the Pope or we went to South Africa or we went to the Great Wall or, you know, just so that these, you know, my girls would walk away from this experience with something more than paparazzi following them, right? But we would always include Avery and Leslie and those times with Grandma, you know. So I got a lot of good time with them on these long, amazing trips. Just, you know, a lot of times I'm working and come back to the room and they're playing Uno or they're doing something silly with grandma. But I'd like to think that I know for Leslie, for example, I know she knows that she can call me, you know, that she can text me. And I think that it's not just because I'm her aunt, but it's that time in. Because sometimes you've got to look a kid in the face and go, I see you. And especially when your aunt is important and the first lady, you need to be able to say, no, no, no, never too important for you.

And I'm going to say this in between seeing the queen and talking to the da-da-da-da. You're here too. Come sit down. And not everybody has the platform of the White House, but there are versions of that, of making sure that the kids in your life know that you see them. so that when it's time, when they do fall short, when they are circling the drain, maybe, maybe they'll just reach up for a lifeline. And maybe Charlotte can do some of that, a little of that, you know. I'm so curious, who in their family is that person who can just pull that little girl up?

Like, all right, knock it off. So let's get to it. Can pull that little girl. What are we really dealing with right now? You know what I mean? Like, and that like over nails or, or, but like there's, I'm trying to think of who are cut the S person is. That's not you gap? No, not with anybody's kids.

Like, you know, like, no, I tend to, I tend to be, you know, a little more judgmental. They're definitely not coming to me first. But like, you've done that. You did that with. I'm the one. I'm the one. You don't look too far. Yeah.

Like, you did it with Torin. Yeah. Yeah, you did it with my nephew Torin. I think going back to what I said is, you know, I'm not trying to come in to be a specialist. You know, kids don't want a specialist. And so if you asked me to talk to Torin, I'm not going to talk to Torin about what you want me to talk to him about. And not the way that you want me to talk to him because I'm just coming in as a specialist at this point. He's not going to share anything with me or be open and honest.

And so I have to take a whole different approach. And I got to be uncle. I got to be somebody who actually understands. And sometimes we come in and the way we're saying it, it don't feel like we understand. that we've been there before. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's a different approach. It really is.

And as a parent, as a father, you have to be the bad cop a lot. So when you try and come in and try and be the good cop, it just doesn't work. So I need Mish to, all right, come ease in and take some of the load off of this kid because he's catching it from me. or it's somebody in our communities, either another family member or one of our good friends who also knows the kids who can come in and be like, well, you know, just like you're saying, you can't come in as a special. That's a wonderful way of putting it. That you come in as a specialist. You can't just come in as the point guard telling guys what to do. You're the captain of the team. You got to come in and be a teammate. Yeah. And say, I'm suffering through stuff too. And what else is going on? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's. I think that's helpful for Charlotte.

But what are some other strategies we can give Charlotte? You know, that's what I'm, I mean, because every family is different. And by us on the outside looking in, it's kind of tough. But I really, I really feel like it doesn't have to be the people who are asking the questions. You know, like you said, there's got to be. somebody in their community, in their village who can help. Well, what I think about is, you know, and this doesn't help Charlotte in the immediate future, but if people are listening, you know, it sort of reinforces the importance of

establishing a good sibling dynamic, right? Because, you know, as I try to tell my girls, you guys are all you have. have, really, you know. And sometimes it's like, so before the problem gets where it is for Charlotte and her sister, where they aren't communicating, whatever that dynamic was, let's step back and just sort of talk about why it's important to parent and how do you parent your kids to have a good dynamic, you know, because a lot of times bad sibling dynamic stems from some, you know, Some parent did, you know. I always talk about the fact that I think that one of the things that helps our dynamic is that we're opposite genders, you know, and brother's sister, especially little sister.

Yeah. I always looked up to him, you know, even though I know my mother loves her black son way more, you know. I mean, I joke about this. She didn't love him more, but there's just this black mother dynamic of Craig, Craig, Craig, Craig. You know, he said, I could, you know, I was like, Mom, I'm the first lady. What more do I have to do? That's all right. He was Craigie Craig's here. He was Craigie Craig. You know, Craigie Craig's in the house. I'm like, okay. We still, we still going there. But, you know, I was a fan too. And I think a lot of that is, you know, if he were a girl, I probably hate him with that dynamic, you know, because he was the beloved, older, you know, sibling. And, you know, sometimes parents set that up. thinking, well, you should be more like X and you shouldn't be, you know, using the other child

to help parent the other one setting up, you know, I want to talk a little bit about that because, you know, there are a lot of people who are parenting siblings. There are a lot of people, how do we avoid that dynamic from happening? And how do you, how do we think about parenting differently? Because I tried never to compare my daughters as a girl. I tried to avoid even, for example, having conversations about grades at the table, right? Or who did what better, you know, not to say that we couldn't reward, but I tried never to, well, you tell us. And now you report out because the younger sibling is always catching up to the older one, you know. But I always tried to be mindful of that, especially with two girls of how do I love them both, parent them both, but keep my parenting neutral enough that they don't feel like they're competing with one another.

But I think about that to this day to make sure that that doesn't happen. I don't know about how you guys think about that. I mean, there's three girls in our house. and, you know, my parents initially, they were like, we're going to, you know, have four years between the first and second with the thought of as we have to start paying for college, one still in high school. And by the time that one is out, you know, so they could afford it. Perhaps my little sister who came seven years after me, I said accident. They said, no, it was a plan. But it created such a weird space dynamic where my older sister became like a mom.

You know what I mean? My older sister was doing all of the parent type of stuff at a younger age because both my parents worked and did overtime. And, you know, they were both going to college when, you know, we were very young. So she, like, a lot fell on her. And it never changed. Like, to this day. You know what I mean? Like, my sister is the one, you know, with my dad at skilled nursing and, you know, making sure everything, like every day in addition to going to work, in addition to her kids and her new grandchild. It's, it's kind of never ended. And then I kind of got to be sort of free. You know what I mean? Like there was no expectation of me to do anything but get good grades. And then my little sister was kind of like, it was sort of at the towards the end of their, you know, the good years of their marriage.

So she just kind of became this extra person. You know what I mean? Not that she was parenting herself, but it just was very different. Very different. Like, my little sister still gets on my mom's lap and, you know, my mom rocks her. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Still. Yeah. And I just kind of had to figure out, you know, I leaned much heavier on my friends. Yeah. They were a much bigger influence. But somehow, because they probably thought, oh, the middle child is getting nothing, they ended up giving me more. More attention, more special time. And then it kind of, according to them, I sort of remember.

merged as the favorite. But it's really kind of like, you're watching, you're observant. And I'm like, okay, my dad's super, always wanted a boy. I'm going to be the closest thing to, you know, a boy that he can have. Right. I'm doing all the sports. I'm learning the Iback formation. Like, I know Nebraska football backwards and forwards.

But then my mom is like very, you know, cultured and she likes museums and, you know, all of that. I'm like, bet I'm there. Like, I become a history buff. Like, you know, we used to go to the newsstand and buy newspapers from around the world. You know, so I tried to appeal to, you know, you kind of appeal to their ego. With a politician, you were in the middle. And you have, also temperamentally, you had that ability.

I'd say this to Barack when it comes to, you know, our oldest, Malia, is very much. She is, she's going to figure out who you are, what do you like, and let's discuss, right? unusual. She's always been that way, you know. I used to say Barack was like, when Malia was teenager, it wasn't like she was going out any less or doing anything differently. She would tell me, I'm going out this weekend, but I'm going to give dad like 15 minutes. And she'd go into the treaty room and tell me about Syria. Oh, wow, really? Oh, I must be. And then she'd be like, okay, well, I'm gone. Brock would come out of the the treaty room going, well, I just had an amazing conversation with Malia, you know,

and I'm like, okay, you know. And Sasha is like a cat. She's like, don't touch me, don't pet me, I'm not pleasing you. You come to me, you know, and Barack's like, well, she's difficult. I was like, no, the first one was a pleaser, right? And it's just temperamentally, they're still like that, right? So, you know, if you're not, sort of understanding the temperament. So you were probably temperamentally somebody who just understood people dynamic in a different way, right? You have to be a chameleon. You have to be a chameleon. And if you can be a chameleon, you know, but some people parent to one child or one personality child, but then you have three. Yeah. You know? They parented, I think, towards

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Let me go to what Craig and I know, we know sports. And so, you know, I've saw coaches try that when one person mess up, the whole team suffers, right? And then I've saw, you know, teams where the best player of the team is exempt from what the others have to do. And so, one, I don't know if it's a right answer to this, right? But what I do know, when it comes to the bending of the. of the team, what we've responded more to is when we all get the same punishments. When this, you know, and I've been on teams

where we had the big three and the little 12. I've had teams where we haven't. And when three is pushed up and others are not, you feel some resentment there. And you can see it and feel it. And so then it becomes on the leaders to have to go back and be like, no, I'm not. And so I think from a sports standpoint,

just, you know, when it comes to the parenting side of it is the work will show. show, right? If coach is treating us all the same, how do I get more? How do I get more? It's going to, I'm going to do more work. And so I think when it comes to parenting, you know, coming in, understanding that they're all individual. But, you know, here's the rules and here's the regulations. And you're going to show me what you deserve and what you should have, not, you know, not anything else. And it's going to be from your work. And that's kind of how, you know, I approached my relationship with, you know, I've had a son since I was 23, all the way down to COVID,

the six, I approach the relationship with each one of them as individuals, but also, too. I love Cobb. That's my baby, but I'm owner too because your work has to show when you want certain things. If not, we don't get those. And so I go. We just had this heated discussion the other day, you know, because he's never raised girls. Yeah. And I grew up with three girls.

And you can see how our father spoke to us and how he, the, the, the, how he, the tones he used and the analogies, how it's impacted all of us to this day when it comes to the men in our lives and the choices we've made surrounding men. And so I'm like, okay, feels a little harsh, feels a little harsh, but also trying to figure out what is the balance? Like, how do you break them of a habit without breaking them? Yeah. And it's a very delicate balance. And each kid is so different, so different. And Kav, like, you know, I came in, I came into the rescue and wrong answer, wrong answer. And it came back to bite me very fast. Carma came so fast.

And I don't remember what I said to her that caused her to be staring me down all day Sunday. I don't remember. I told her to, I don't know, share, stop doing something. We had a little play date or whatever. And she was like, she gave you the look. Hours. She's on the trampoline across the yard. So is it different? You can tell, you can coach her a certain way, but you can't?

I don't know if I can't. I am. Yeah. I am. And it has to start, you know, and she's six. And so, and I'm her basketball coach right now, right? I'm the one who's training her. And I told her mom, I said, her and our relationship is going to be a little different. Different. Because the things I'm going to have, the things she's going to have to do to want to be a great athlete. When she said, oh, I want to be better than Angie Reese. Okay.

You said that. I hear you. And so the things you're going to have to do, you're not going to want to do. And so, yeah, my tone going to be a little different to your moms. You know, I'm going to look at our conversation is going to be a little different. And so I believe from my, you know, my understanding, she respects it, you know. She respects the way that I communicate. She don't like it.

But I can see her right away when we get done with. at that moment. She comes, we hug, we don't miss a beat, and she's not staring me down, we on the couch. So it's a different dynamic that we have. Not saying her mom needs to have that dynamic. Right. But this is just, this is how this is going to go.

I'm coached. Yeah, yeah. But to get back to Charlotte, it really feels like she should be focused first on her relationship with her sister. Yeah, I think we all agree. First and form on that, yeah. Because that's the thing she can control, right?

And control is a strong word, but it's the closest and most real relationship in this dynamic. So I think we all agree at this table in our opinion. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I want to be there for like Easter. I know, really. The next family gathering.

I want to know what advice she took, what direction she went in. I know. I know. I know. I know. I'm right, really. She's like, they were all wrong. That's okay, Charlotte.

This is the perfect time to figure out some tips that we can give Charlotte to navigate through this. But the first tip that we all agreed on is that work on your relationship with your sister. So that's one. And just the sister relationship. Right. Not that I'm taking care of you. I'm going to fix it. I'm going to.

It's just you and me just being. Yeah. Yeah. And anything else come to mind. She says space. We talk about space. Space. Space.

That's a good tip. So siblings need it. Yeah. And also, this is a good, you know, time to be a little introspective. Like, is there something that you are doing, Charlotte, that could be the thing that doesn't allow your sister to want to tell you? As my husband has pointed out numerous times with me and my little sister, I had to check myself because I'm not the warm and fuzzy come to me with your problems.

I'm the person you come to when you're ready to solve it. But the listening and the, you know, getting to know how this, you know, the situation started. No, that's not me. But I had to check myself. Why don't you tell me anything? Maybe it's the tone that you're speaking. And I had to have a come to Jesus with myself.

Or maybe it's what we talk about, right? Like sometimes, and a good friend of us told us this, Lauren, she came up and told us this. Sometimes when people tell you stuff, they just want you to listen. They don't really want your advice sometimes. And I think it's trying to find, like, do you want, like, and we had this comment, do you want my advice or do you just want me to listen? And sometimes, because of our positions, we give us so much advice.

Charlotte's sister may not want your advice. She just may want you to just be there, listen, you know, and not always give your two cents. Yep. Excellent. Anything else? Any more tips from you? No, I think that's pretty thorough.

I think the overall, my message is. to the listening audience as let's start with the thinking about how we parent our children as siblings that, you know, what choices as parents are we making that can affect that dynamic? And is that something that we as parents can look at in terms of how we talk to our children, how we compare them, how we set them up? Because if we want our kids to have this foundation, and this relationship going forward, it starts when they're little. And it oftentimes is very impacted by how parents parent.

And that's just as important as what you do to the individual is how do you create the bond among your children. That requires work and thought. And time. And intention. Yeah. Consistency. Well, you guys, thank you. For now, thank you.

Thank you, guys. Giving us a lot to think about. No, really. Yeah. Tell you some things. Yeah. No, it's great. And able to help Charlotte.

Yes. No, this is great. You guys are the best. No. Appreciate it. And good luck with all the things. Yeah. And stay ready to go.

We stay ready, so we've got to get the able ready. Let's go talk. Let's go talk.