IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Tap Into Your Vulnerability with Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson

Episode Date: October 15, 2025

This week on IMO, Craig and Michelle are joined by basketball legends and fellow podcasters Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson. The two discuss their careers on the court, how they have evolved both personally and professionally since retiring from basketball, and the steps they are taking to embrace the type of healthy masculinity they want for their own sons.Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Your mom got to work at six in the morning. She gets off at six in the evening. You don't even see her when you get off at school. So I've seen the dedication that she put, but she also never demeaned my father. She never demeaned him in no type of weight. I never spoke bad of them. So when I start having my own kids, you know, when I- And you got a lot of them.

I got a lot of them. Do you? How many kids are you going to go? 17. Okay. No, I don't have no 17 kids. Okay. I got five girls of my own, one out of marriage, and I got two boys.

This episode is brought to you by. Rivian and Colagard. Michelle Obama. Hi, Craig. How are you feeling today? I feel terrific. Is that crochet? You would be better telling than I would.

Do you like that? Let's see. It's kind of a knit. It's mesh. Very fancy with your little silver buttons. I tell people all the time, the hardest part about this job is keeping up with your wardrobe. Well, that just won't happen. You should give up.

I know. I know. I just start rerunning my outfits. I should. Oh, you can't do that. Sorry. I won't allow it. No, no. But you look cute today. Thanks. I feel cute. What's new and exciting in the Robinson household? Not much. We just got back from Orlando from a AU extravaganza end of the summer. I couldn't be more happy with the end of the summer. But we had fun. We had fun. The boys played well. and it was extremely hot down there.

Did they win? They won enough games to be proud to, they won more than they lost. That's good. Did you rent a car? We did. It wasn't a Rivian, though. Uh-oh.

How's the Rivian? It's good. It's good. Our listeners know that we were gifted Rivians to test out and talk about. It's going well. You know, I found a. new feature. Tell me, because there's so many features. I finally

took the car to go get washed. Tell me about that. And, you know, I was thinking, you know, having the car in the driveway, having the kids wash it, that's all fun, but I was like, I'm taking it in to the car wash. And it's got so many cameras and sensors, it was going crazy while I was going

through it. Oh, it was one of those, you stay in the car. It was one of you stay in the car and it was telling me that there were cars coming up behind me And to the right, and so I was going through the screen, and I found a spot where you hit it for car wash, and it turns off all the cameras, closes the windows, you can't accidentally open them while you're in there, pulls in your mirrors, and turns off all the cameras and sensors. Nice. That's something to keep in mind. They thought of everything. They have thought of everything, so.

That's good. All right. This is one show we have. I have. You too, we have been waiting for because we have a couple of guests here who are, they're killing it in their own right. Yes, they are. And a couple of basketball legends. And I'm talking about Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson. And probably the first guests that I have to look up to. Literally, huh?

Literally. but Matt Barnes spent 14 seasons in the NBA. And for those of you who listen to our show, 14 seasons in the NBA is an outlier. Most of the folks who are in the NBA are in there for a hot minute and are out. He excelled as a defensive specialist and enforcer. His basketball career ended with the 2017

championship with the Golden State Warriors in his final season. He is a proud father, the CEO of all the smoke production, the co-host of all the smoke, and an investor slash advisor for several companies. Stephen Jackson also played 14 seasons in the NBA. So note, two for it. I mean, that... That's a rare thing. Yes, God, 14 years.

He was pivotal in the San Antonio Spurs 2003 championship. He is the co-host of the hit series All the Smoke and has emerged as a spokesman for human rights and equality for people all around the world. These guys had me on their show back when we were first getting started. And they are killing it on the smoke. They're killing it on all the smoke. Matt and Stephen, come on out. Come on. Join us. Hey, guys.

Hi. What's happening is? Welcome. Welcome. I'm doing great. I'm happy to be the beautiful. Let's see you, man. The heels. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for being here. Matt, thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you. I heard your AAU's summer, huh? Doesn't that take the whole summer? It just takes the whole summer and it's bad basketball. Oh, it's horrible basketball.

Are you coached too? Are you the coaching my kids? Same with me. It's just bad hoops. So what makes it bad basketball? Well, you got... And what do you mean by bad basketball? Well, where do we start?

IQ? Yeah. He's around it every day. He's talking basketball IQs, and these are NBA guys. I'm just want to get to where not everybody's an independent contractor. Let's just play like a team that you're supposed to play. Play it right. Learn how to play.

You'll get seen. Right. But if you keep playing like this, guys like me who used to be looking at. at you guys going to the next guy. What age group are you coaching? 15 you. Okay, I'm 16. 13 you. Yeah. I just feel like to your question, Michelle,

it's just this generation of kids are super skilled, very skilled and talented because they're training, but they're training individual training. So it's head down. How many times can you put the ball between your legs? Just all the stuff that doesn't really add up to the next level. So college is, you know, all these spacing and ball movement and playing off the ball.

And obviously NBA is the ultimate show for that. kids are just head down and go to the basket and it's very individualized and selfish. So the hardest part for me, and probably for you, is just getting these kids all on the same page because they're all the best kids, they're all the best kids on their individual teams. And we try to come together for the summer and be a unit. And it's difficult sometimes. Yeah, yeah. It just feels like AAU is just an industry. Moneymaker, that's all it is. And I always give him crap about the deep investment in AAU for my nephews, because it's like, to me, and the This would be controversial.

It's like it's not doing anything for these young men and women, you know. I mean, I had always hoped that sports would be that place where kids would learn not just the skills, but they would learn how to be on a team. A lot of different things, yeah, from team sports, you know, have some role models, learn how to listen, you know, learn how to lose, learn how to win with grace. And it just feels like this whole league is just all about money and convincing some parents that your, your child will be the next whoever they think. To me, it's like a gift and a curse because AAU was a blessing for me.

I come from a small time where if I didn't have AAU, nobody would never heard of. So that's why I used it to make a name for myself and become a top high school prospect. But now it's not even for that. You know, it's a lot of people are playing the game for the wrong reasons and around these kids for the wrong

reason. Yeah. Can I just say, just as a point of introduction, is that I am so impressed with the both of you on so many different levels. That means she's through talking basketball. No, no, I know we could go on and on. You know when the queen talks, you're all listening now. But, you know, watching you guys podcasts, watching you out in the world,

watching how you carry yourself, watching how you do talk about more than just basketball. and how you are serving as role models for men connecting with something other than sports. I mean, that is one of the reasons why I'm really excited to have you guys on the show. You know, you just don't meet men like you often. That means a lot, especially coming from you guys. I mean, and that was our thing. You know, we were kind of outcasts or bad guys in the NBA, but it was just what we had to do to survive in the league.

and I think our transformation post-MBA has kind of opened a lot of people's eyes. And again, never perfect. We've had a lot of mishaps. But I think, you know, genuine and pure hearts and wanting to do the right thing and understanding that, you know, we don't take this microphone for granted. You know, being a trusted voice in the black community is something that's, you know, very near and dear to our heart. And, you know, I mean, we're here now, you know what I mean? So, again, it's an honor to be here and we appreciate that. Yeah.

And you talk about a transformation, but was it? I mean, you know, you all came into the league as enforcers or that became your, you know, role. Probably because you're hungry, you need to win, things you learn. But when I hear about your backgrounds, you know, like I see the humanity in you then, you know, it's just sort of like that lead played. You had to play some role that wasn't you because you just don't become this if you weren't already that, right? And a lot of, you know, misunderstanding too. Like, people will consider you and put you in a certain category, but we just love playing basketball and we played it with the ultimate passion.

So just because I play the game harder than you, don't mean I'm a thug or I'm a bad guy. I'm a forcer. I just play the game with a passion and willing to put my body on the line, and you're not willing to do that. And that's why we look that way at times. Man, Matt just loved the game and we love our teammates. Everybody didn't love their teammates.

Yeah. You know what I mean? We loved our teammates. And that's why we're so close now because we're very, We're very identical. We don't look. I look better than him. But as people, we are the same.

And I think that's what a lot of people see that now. But I don't think, and you guys tell me this, when you first got drafted and you were just going in, you weren't going in with the mindset of I'm going to be this guy. Michael Jordan. Right? And whoever you thought you were going to be. No, we didn't.

I want to get in the NBA, make a career. and last and make some money and change my family's life. I didn't go in there trying to be the best player because I knew that really wasn't feasible for me. You know, I got drafted second to the last pick. You know, I went overseas a couple of years. So that wasn't my role. I went in and defined my role and it worked out for me.

I think obviously finding a role is instrumental for anybody because everyone thinks they're going to come in and be the next step for LeBron or Michael Jordan or Kobe or whatever. But those guys are, you know, once-in-a-lifetime type players. And to find your role is what gave us both longevity. we found out, okay, yeah, I'd like to do more of that, but that's not what they're looking for. This is what I'm going to do. But I think back to your point, too, and I think we caught the end of social media with our

NBA career. So what you saw is what you get, you know, so you may see Jack slap somebody or me cuss out a ref and you think, oh, man, there's such, but, you know, you saw two hours of a competitive guys that were doing anything to can just to continue to, you know, prolong our careers. So I think, again, post career was when social media really started hitting and we were able just to show who we were. And again, not perfect, but real. And I think that's been this, our secret to success transitioning is we didn't switch up. You know, we both worked for ESPN and Fox and worked on these networks and now have our own thing, but we've, you know, wholeheartedly been us

the whole time. And it surprised a lot of people thinking that, okay, you can play this way and you can talk this way and still do this. So where did the idea for all the smoke come from? Go ahead, bro. You tell the story about it. Man, we were, we were fellow. shipping. You're getting. Describe that. We were sitting back after on Sunday. Like a gold word.

We were at my play. I had a place in the base still right when I retired from the Golden State and we happened to just, he came in town and we were hanging out watching games and we were both having some success with Fox and ESPN and we kept in a lot of feedback. You guys need to do something together. You guys are authentic. You guys are real. I mean, obviously

we were brothers, but it was just like we were, he was Fox and I was more ESPN. So we were just I'm okay, what can we do together? And I was just like, let's do a podcast. And we didn't really know what it was, but I'm just like, I think we could more authentically be ourselves. He's like, what's a podcast? I'm like, I don't know, but I think we can smoke and we can drink and we can be ourselves.

And, you know, I'm kind of the one that's in the weeds, learning the business and understanding stuff and had an opportunity to meet with Brian Daley, who was at Showtime at the time. At the time, he flew out from New York, and we met at a hotel, and I pitched him an idea. And he liked it. And he had to fight tooth and nail to, to get it passed because this is showtime, showtime, like the linear network. So they're just like, you want guys that are smoking weed talking about sports on our network? They're like, no, that doesn't work.

So he had to, he put his life and his job on the line for us and fought for us. And, you know, first season in, we won sports podcasts of the year and kind of just flipped the whole industry on its back. I think we were the second, I think knuckleheads quitting Richardson and Derry Smiles or maybe a handful of months behind us. But when we came in, we kind of really feel like we kicked the door in. And now we're almost kind of like the godfathers of this space because there's so many podcasts out now. But I do want to say with the amount of podcasts out, we don't look at anyone as competition because I feel like we're unique in our own ways and everyone has their own journeys and own stories. And I think a player's perspective is what fans as a whole one. That's what I want to hear.

Now I'm a fan now that I'm done. So I want to hear what a pro has to say. So we've got a ton of brothers and sisters in this space now. And I think it's great because now for so many years, there was only the talking figures that had never played that are speaking on who we are, who we think we are instead of us allowing or us talking for ourselves, but also allowing our brothers and sisters to give their own truths and painting their own pictures. Well, I'm part of showing that piece is folks understanding and knowing your stories,

you know, little Matt and little Steve. Oh, a little Matt. You know, and I'm so moved by what you guys have both been. but talk a bit about growing up, you know, what your childhoods were like, what home was like, what it wasn't like. I know you've talked about it before. Our audience is new to you, and I want them to know all of you because that's also what makes you special. For me, I grew up by raising my grandmother and grandfather. So I'm a grandma's baby.

I'm a grandma's baby to this day. I get emotional thinking about it. She had, I have a lot of aunts, I was raised by a lot of women. I grew up in the church, I'm a Muslim now, but I grew up in the church. You grew up in the church choir. Trying to sing. You got a voice? No, he doesn't.

Okay, never mind. No, I wouldn't do that to you. Don't gas them up. I would not do that. Just real family arts, a small town. Yeah. Eight sets of low-income housing, one or two high schools, one grocery store. So I've seen it all.

Yeah. I'm just thankful that I had a great support system. My city, every time I tried to get in trouble or be something that I wasn't, they protected me. And then they saw me with the talent to go to the NBA that when I didn't see it. So my city just protecting me. Small town, Port Arthur, Texas, Jimmy Johnson, Janice Joplin, they all from there, Jamar Charles, Kendrick Perkins is from 15 minutes away.

But I had a great upbringing. And I was lucky that I was around a lot of love because I made a lot of mistakes. Yeah. And the people around me showed me. that you have a chance to be something in life. So I owe it all to my city, my family. Is your grandmother still alive with us? No, she's on her.

My grandfather will they able to see? Yes, so the first year I made it to the NBA, my grandfather passed. So he was able to see me, my grandmother. So, yeah, I worked out. Yeah, yeah. Me, man, biracial child, Italian mom, black father growing up in the 80s.

Yikes. Yeah, a little different. A little different. My parents, my dad would tell me stories of just being in certain areas and getting into fights because he was with a white woman. So growing up a biracial kid, the first eight years of my life, I didn't know any different because I was around. A lot of kids that were either like me or black, Mexican, Asian, whatever it was. And we moved to Sacramento at about 1989. And my parents were both functioning drug users.

You know, we never went without, but I knew. And again, growing up in the 80s, I just saw a lot. We had the house that everyone hung out at. So I just saw a lot growing up. But the oldest of three, and moving at the end of the 80s up to Sacramento, it was kind of a culture shock. Although we found a neighborhood that was similar to my neighborhood, my parents started putting me in predominantly white schools. And although I'm half Italian, I was never really around white kids. And I was always a big old outcast.

Had to fight for friends, fight for the opportunity for sports, faced a ton of racism. But I really think it started shaping me at an early age of just, okay, this is a cold world. now. I had a little bubble in my first nine years, but I'm in this real world now where people dread you based in it. I would go home crying at times at eight or nine years old, like, why won't the kids let me play? And obviously my mom would console

me and hug me and love me. My dad's like, no, I fight him. And I'm like, oh, you're giving me a pass to fight? So, you know, at eight or nine years old, I started fighting for that respect and fighting for racism. And I didn't really understand why, but it just was what it was. So,

long story short, I gained a lot of acceptance. And once they accepted me, I was an athlete that played four sports, football, basketball, baseball, and track and really made a lot of lifelong friends that I still have to this day. But I would say the one thing that shaped my entire childhood, literally right up until I went to UCLA, was just the racism. My senior high school in Sacramento, a kid was messing with my sister, calling her racial slurs, and I did what a big brother was supposed to do. I protected her. And school didn't believe me. They thought I was some kind of on some bully stuff. I could spend it for a week. And then the school is,

nearly, it was vandalized by the KKK, burned down bathrooms, mannequins with die barns, nigger here. I mean, there's still swastika's engraved, and I've been out of high school for almost 30 years now. So it was just really kind of, it again, I don't look at it as like poor me. It was just kind of what shaped me and what gave me a voice before I even had a voice, before I had a platform to share my voice. And that's why I'm so outspoken to this day on racism and in politics and policy and

police brutality because I've just seen a lot as a young child that I knew that. okay, if I'm ever blessed enough to have my own platform, I need to speak up for all the people that don't have an opportunity to speak. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Rivian and their fully electric, full-sized SUVs and pickups that are designed for all of life's adventures. I have really enjoyed driving around in the R1S that Rivian outfitted our family with. I can't believe there's a full-size all-electric SUV that actually fits someone as tall and long as I am. You know, we've done a lot of travel in the Midwest this summer, and a couple of the features that I like are, number one, they're easy to find charging stations.

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your neighborhoods? Have you spent some time back there, reinvesting? My family's still there. I did. I tried to open the school there one time, but as of today, I go home and see family. I lost a lot of siblings in the last couple of years, so it brings back memory, so I just try to stay away from my home. I get back to Sacramento. I mean, I'm very interested in policy, so I've been up to the Capitol and helped pass police brutality bills and helping Kevin Johnson with a former NBA player who was the mayor of Sacramento, who kind of inspired me to think about possibly.

You know, I gave myself, I think, at 31 or 32, when I was still on the NBA, I was like by 50, I'm going to be the mayor of my home. town. So I'm 45 now, so I don't know. But I've been doing a lot of grassroots stuff back there with, you know, equal opportunity, cannabis stuff and again, walking the state capitals and doing that kind of stuff. So not directly in my neighborhood, but just more kind of giving back to the city and planting those seeds in case I do decide to go back one day and, you know, do something. Do you think you might get into politics? I could. I mean, I love politics. It's something that something that I really found fascinating. At first, what interests me in politics, it wasn't so much the policies, it was more, I just saw Kevin Johnson revitalized his neighborhood. He came from one of

the worst neighborhood in Sacramento, and he kind of turned it upside down in a good way and provided a lot of job opportunities and just opportunity for people to satisfy what inspired me. I have a six-year-old and 11-month-old to go with my 16-year-old twins, so Daddy of duty is always first and foremost. Absolutely, in politics, you suck the life out of that. Right. So if it ever presents itself once my boys are old enough and it really kind of set, you know, it's something I may take a look at. Do you consider yourself's outliers in your, I don't even want to say your industry, but in the peer group of athletic men, and I'll say that because I found that, you know,

it was always very easy when we would reach out, because we would always reach out to top athletes, to top entertainers. WMBA, women, always signed up when we all voted, you know. from college on, it's always hard to get the brothers to, you know, to focus. I'm just wondering why, what are we missing, you know, in sports where women athletes are ready to, you know, go, go whole hog. I want him to answer first, because I think he's come a long way, but he has. And, you know, this is a very interesting question because I was someone who dove in once I

started learning about it, but he was someone on the other side. He'd only seen, and I'll let him speak for himself, he'd only seen the bad side of stuff. So what is my voter? What is my voice going to do? Especially with, you know, George Flo was my close friend, like my twin. So seeing that whole situation, you know, seeing both sides of with people that are there for the right reasons and people that are not, you know, it'll rub you the wrong way because you're dealing with a situation where this is somebody that you love that passed. Yeah.

But now you're using this for a political game. So I've seen both sides. So for me, I actually start asking them questions because there's a lot I don't understand and don't know. I kind of leave them leaving my heart. Yeah. You know, and I'm not big on hope dealing. If you want to do something for somebody, do it. If you know what they need, do it.

That's just how I look at it. And I know politics is not that clear cut. So I'm open now to listen to him and to learn more about politics because, you know, I understand how it affects us. Yeah. From the George Floyd situation. So I'm always been one person that I'm always been one person. I don't know everything and I've been willing to learn, but that situation with me, you know, not sleeping some nights, you know, seeing how people really hate other races. Like, I've never experienced that and been in the middle of it in my life.

So to see that, it opened my mind to a lot of things. So I'm willing to understand people and ask questions and I don't think if I would have went to that situation and seeing all the pain and people hurt and being in the 29 states on my own dime, giving this to neighborhoods that I'm not from, and to see how much we need. stuff. I'm open to learn in and everything involving politics now. So I credit that to him and I credit that to the situations I'm able to experience. And I just think this is a marathon and on a sprint. And you guys know that. And I think the reason why I jumped in and obviously that we knew that there was going to be a ton of people who were voiceless, but then also become a father. You know, you always want the best for your kids. And at one point, I'm not going to be here to guide them and do everything. So I wanted to try to be a part of something and understanding the power of our platforms. I mean, we need. have athletes low-key run every aspect, whether it be fashion. You know, our opinions are heavy. We've got not necessarily arguments, but definitely disagreements because I'm just like, you know, I feel like what he just said, I was just like there's so many people that feel like you.

So if you would come out and explain that, I think people will kind of, okay, I get why you don't. But now that he's willing to listen, I think it's huge. So we never disagree. We disagree for about a good week. Yeah. He was mad. But we love it, just so it was a healthy conversation. I would be checking on them, just understanding, you know, we just going to do with the George Floyd stuff,

and just understanding to be able to embrace the opportunity. And, you know, being a leader on the basketball court is one thing. But, you know, this guy led the biggest protest the world's ever seen. You know what I mean? So to understand and be able to galvanize that and carry that momentum to the next level. What it was as I'm always, I've always been a team guy. You know, you talk about principles you learn in AAU that you don't learn anymore. You learn, I think if it's taught the right way, you want so much stuff from team sports.

So I'm always trying to bring people in and understand that, you know, know the fist is stronger than the finger. The most important thing on the court for us at the time is to be able to be focused because no matter how crazy the world, we're paid a lot of money to do our jobs. And there's no excuse, whether your mom dies, your kid's sick. None of that matters when you're on the basketball court. So again, that's why I respect, I may not like, but I respect everyone's decision whether they want to use their platform or not because it is.

It's a lot, you know what I mean? And I even feel today not playing. I'm just like every day I look on social, me like, this stuff is heavy. I think until growing up we become numb to so much stuff. So like, you know, we see family members can't afford medicine and die. We see friends, accidental murders and stuff,

so much growing up. So when you get to the point where you're having success and you're able to change your family lives, like you kind of come numb to the stuff that you grew up seeing, and that's not right. You know what I'm saying? You got to go back and try to help, you know, somebody else and so they won't go through the same situations

you've been through growing up. So, you know, a lot of kids don't see it because a lot of these kids in the NBA, They didn't struggle. You know, a lot of them didn't struggle, so they don't know what it's like. And that's new now, right? Yeah, that's a new way. Talk about that a little bit more.

A lot of kids grew up. I grew up on food stamps and drugs and violence. Like, my kids grew up behind gates and private schools. You know what I mean? So these kids don't have, I don't think a lot of them really know there why, you know, because everything has been, these kids now are getting more money in high school and college and some guys are getting into MBA. So it's just like, where's the grind?

We had to grind to get to a certain level. grind to get a certain amount of money. And now, thanks to it, because we've always talked about athletes should be paid, but these kids are getting paid a lot earlier and they're getting a lot of money. So where does that, where is their mindset at? What is there, again, what is their why? So it's just a different time now. And I'm happy for all these kids because we busted our asses to make sure this is the way they got to grow up. You know, I mean, again, to his point, we don't want our kids, I don't want the kids, my kids to struggle with the racism and the food stamps and living with family and family them with us. Like, I worked my butt off so they didn't have to do that.

But at the same time, how do you instill those qualities in your kids to understand that, hey, this is not the, you know, we're blessed. This is no, we're not the richest family, but we're comfortable enough to know that the rest of the world may not see this or live like this. That's why I give him credit that. Like, he's done a great job with change his trajectory of his kid's life, but you wouldn't know. You know, they're very down earth. They're very hungry. They're good boys. So they don't carry themselves like we've been living a great life.

They're very humble. And when you're a parent that can come from their struggle and change the life, but also instill that to the kids, I think that'd be the best one. to have the best in both worlds because you're going to deal with some stuff in life that you don't have the blueprint for and you're going to have to figure it out on the fly. So, I mean, that's just light, but I like the fact that he, what he said

because you want to change your kids' life, but you still want those to have the morals that we grew up with. We're saying, yes, ma'am, open doors. A lot of kids don't do those little things no more, holding doors for the elders and stuff like that. So if you can instill those morals into your kids but also understand that's still blessed, I think that would be the best kids.

How do you do that? How are you all doing that? I think parenting, I think when we grew up and I'm 45, it was a dictatorship. I mean, what my parents said went, period. You know what I mean? And if you talk back, you were going to meet the consequences. I think now it has to be, we have to meet in the middle. I think it's more of a conversation now because of the Internet and because they have access to so much stuff at a younger age and they're hearing different voices and different opinions and seeing stuff we may not know they're seeing at a certain age. So with me, particularly with my twins are 16 and I have a six-year-old and I have an 11-month-old. So it was always for me leaving little breadcrumbs knowing that I'm going to have to cross this bridge eventually. And then it was just kind of leaving breadcrowns with girlfriends and holding hands and hugging and then kissing. And I was thankful and they're probably going to get mad to me.

But when the boys were about to start having sex like that, I think it were close. You know, can we? And so I knew I did something right to know that my sons felt comfortable enough to you. And I was like, did you tell your mom? They're like, no, we can't tell mom. You know what I mean? So they felt comfortable enough to come to me to ask something that I hit for my parents. And I'm sure 90% of the kids would hide from their parents is, you know, we're about

to step into a whole new space of girlfriends and sex and that kind of stuff. So to answer your question, I just think it's more of bringing our old school morals and discipline and meeting them halfway understanding with this generation and this culture is like, because the last thing you want to do, and I credit my kids a lot, especially being in this media space is being old and outdated in your ways because you get attacked for that these days. And that kind of thinking doesn't elevate at all. So finding that old school discipline and morals and understanding and meeting with this new generation of just life is at the palm of their hands. And you can do that way earlier than you think with kids. You know, you can't use

big words. You can't use examples that don't make sense to them. But if we sort of fully see children as people and not as our little mini-meas or people who are just here for our entertainment and our comfort, but as humans in the room who have real legitimate questions. I mean, I always say our kids have a lot of questions because the only thing they have to do in life is watch us. They ain't working. They don't have worries. They're watching everything we do, everything we say. Absolutely. And if we don't explain ourselves to them, if we think, you're too young to understand. You're automatically cutting,

you're taking away their credit. I think for me, watching my mom made me a great parent. My dad stayed five minutes away from me. He's gone down, but he never was around. My mom worked from six in the morning. You know those graveyard sheds where you, your mom got to work at six in the morning. She gets off at six in the evening.

You don't even see it when you get off from school. So I've seen the dedication that she put, but she also never demeaned my father. She never demeaned him in no type of weight. You never spoke bad of him. So when I start having my own, kids, you know. When I...

And you got a lot of them. I got a lot of them. Do you? I got six girls. 17? Okay. No, I don't have no 17 kids. Okay.

I got five girls in my own, one out of marriage, and I got two boys. Matt. You know how he is on the show? I can't do it. It's like we're watching your show. Hey, I'm on my best behavior, but every once in a while, I got to poke him a little bit. It wouldn't be him if you'd be dumb. It wouldn't be him.

But just, just, just, just, learning from her and watching her do the things she did. And as I started having my kids, you know, it's a lot of situations where I could have responded out of emotion. Imagine being at your child's game. Yeah. The mother poisoned so much that all his teammates are coming and talk to you, but your son ignores you. Yeah. So I'm leaving games crying because I don't know how to respond. But seeing my mom, yeah, not demean my daddy, get up every day and do what she had to do for us, that showed me, look, just continue to do your part. It'll, it'll, it'll work out. work yourself out, you know, and eventually did.

But I wouldn't have known that if I wouldn't have seen such a strong woman raising us and working hard for us every day. Yeah. Now, you guys, so both of your careers are kind of mirrored, right? You had to really overcome obstacles to get to where you were. Then you get to where you are and you got to overcome even more obstacles. And I would be interested in hearing how are you helping your kids understand those obstacles and then overcoming their own.

Because like you said, we all came up differently than the way we're raising our kids. And I hate being the old guy to say, oh, back in the day. You have to, though. You have to, though, because they'll never have it as worse as we had. And I think that's the own thing. Like, I tell my son, your journey is going to be different from mine. But you won't have to work as hard as I had. You have your own journey.

You have your own ups and down. your own stuff you're going to go through, but I've paved away from you, away for you where it can be easy. You know the road. The blueprint and basically playing basketball, that's what you want to do. So I've done everything, you know, the good and bad for you to know what not and what to do. So I think that's a blessing to have because we didn't have that. I've never had an NBA player come talk to me as a kid and tell me you can make it and not to do this. So just so I have the experience to give him, I think he's ahead of the curve already.

And I also think, too, from a different standpoint. And it's unfortunate, but it's the norm now. It's just broken homes. You know what I mean? I divorced my twins' mom when they were five years old, and we had to learn how to, mom and dad's house this weekend, mom's house next week, and how can we still bring a village together to let them know we love them and support them, and our love will never waver, although your mom and I aren't together,

our love for you, you guys are still the apple of both of our eyes if we're going to do anything. And then, unfortunately, with my second situation, now I'm in a similar situation with my 11-month-old and my six-year-old now where, you know, their mom and I split up. So to me, it's really a lot of mental, a whole lot of, we talk sports and we talk,

but to me is just making sure they're okay because, again, although it's the norm, it's still tough on a child. I mean, I think the divorce rate for professional athletes is like in the 70s, you know what I mean? So, again, unfortunately, we fell into that statistic, but at the same time, you know, understanding and,

And as the twin, it's night and day to the twins. Now the twins completely understand, you know, I get along with my ex and her husband. And again, it's a village for them, but it's new to my two youngest. So trying to explain to my six-year-old, like, what is going on. Obviously, the baby doesn't know any better, but to explain to my six-year-old that mommy and daddy don't live together no more, unfortunately. But, you know, you're still, we're coming on, we're still doing stuff with the family for birthdays, graduations, holidays.

We're going to still make it as comfortable as we can because there is no blueprint for broken families. You just got to hope that, you know, you keep the kids first and that you can be cordial enough to make sure their childhood is still what it needs to be, although we're not together day to day anymore. So, and I think, again, my, my, that part of my story isn't unique. I think it's a lot, it's very common. And to be able to still put the kids first, no matter what you're going through with your ex-husband or ex-wife, I think is, is always the goal. And it, and it's not as easy as it sounds. I mean, we had, I had some hard times with my twins with my ex-wife.

I'm just trying to get on that page. And thankfully, we're there now. And again, you know, this newer situation with my younger ones has been easier with her. Her and I still communicate constantly and where we're putting the kids. But I know my six-year-old, you know, sometimes has issues with it. You know what I mean? So just making sure that I'm loving on him and communicating with him more as, you're only six, but I'm going to communicate with you as if you're older because I think you understand what's going on.

So, again, there's no blueprint for this. but, you know, being a father is my greatest accomplishment and the thing I love absolute most on this earth, so I got to pour, although the situations didn't work, still pour everything I can into my kids. You've been present from day one for all your kids, and that's where all fathers and you're done to stand. Just be present.

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How do you all manage the emotional presence for your, for your children as men? I know Matt, in an interview, I heard you say that you hadn't cried. Yeah. That's what we did. I cried. Yeah. Yeah. I cried.

Yeah. I can't. Have you cried yet? I haven't. I want to learn. I don't know. He came close when we had. Yeah.

Jason Wilson. Oh, sure. Yeah. I was open you and get some off-the-camera time with him because he can't close. Yeah. He was. He was special. And I mean, that interview was so special because we didn't even go off any of the, it was just freestyle.

Once we had it started having that real conversation. And I felt vulnerable and I felt okay with it because I know me sharing my story. There's a ton of people that have similar journeys or have the same issues. Why can't cry? I don't know. I want to because I know to be a great cleansing. But again, I've touched on the emotional, the emotional side and the emotional intelligence of kids. And again, it's just conversating.

You know, one of my twins, this is supposed to be a big summer for him. And he went to a top 100 camp and fractured his ankle. So he had to watch the entire summer. And it's just one, you know, you've got a twin brother out there doing his thing. And then the other twin is just like, and so one twin, the school they're starting to talk to one twin. And then the other twins, like, what about, you know what I mean? So just again, that emotional and letting them know we still got him and you still have plenty of time to show the world what you can do. And this is, you know, this is going to build character.

And because there's, again, to Jack's point, I mean, their journeys are different. and kids run from the grind these days. And they transfer and they're jumping all around. So I was like, this is going to build. I was like, I promise you, you're going to be better. Do your kids cry? Do they feel? They do.

Yeah. They're definitely comfortable enough to, you know what I mean? But again, they didn't, you know, for us growing up and, you know, it's probably similar, like growing up and crying, showing a sign of weaknesses, huh? What? You know, and mental health is what? Like mental health just started becoming a conversation maybe five or six years ago. You know, if you cried, you were soft.

if you had issues, like forget your issues, you know. And I was someone to the point where I made it through all the bad stuff I had to go through. So mental health, like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm not letting that hold me back. And then when I started getting counseling and realizing like, hey, some of the stuff from your childhood is the reason why you're not empathic as you need to be your sympathetic or you put up walls. It's just like, okay, now I need to go. You said, Little Matt. It made me laugh.

That's what my counselor says. Like, you know, you got to tap in with Little Matt and fix those things that, you know, my parents didn't know that they were doing it wrong. but sometimes they were doing it wrong and it caused issues for me as an adult. So again, being very aware of the surroundings and the environment, I put my kids in considering that I'm into, unfortunately, failed situations, but I have kids with kids in those situations. So how do you stay on top of it mentally and from the loving side of it as well? I mean, failure isn't a bad thing for kids to see in their parents.

I mean, that's something that Barack and I try to remember all the time. like, you know, seeing the vulnerability, seeing the fear, it kind of gives, I found them permission to have those same emotions. Like, we think we're being strong for our kids. We think we're, you know, shielding them. But, you know, when my girls perk up, it's when we talk about failure, right? And to see two parents who have succeeded at a certain level, you know, we have to make it a point. Right, because they weren't around when we were grind and struggling when he lost congressional bid when I failed the bar the first time when we had an argument or when, you know, they were too young for that.

So it becomes even more important for us to take them down those emotional paths because they, kids like ours, they have so much support, but they have so much pressure. And it's not from the outside world. It's internal. You know, it's like my dad is so awesome. I don't want to disappoint them. Like they're having those little thoughts in their heads, right? And we have to be really, really deliberate about breaking that stuff down for them, giving them permission, making failure.

Like, that's part of the journey. So look at us. But also, too, I think, you know, when you're young, you think the road to success and whatever success, that is for you is like this. That's right. You know, and it's the furthest thing from the truth. But as you get older, you start to see like, hey, that failure or that mishap is going to

help me get back on track. But again, and that's why I said earlier, like protecting your kids too much to me is you're going to set them up once they're free and have to really fin for this world. Like if they haven't seen anything, they're going to have a hard time finding who they are as adults. We had to be so deliberate about that, right? Because our girls had Secret Service agents until Malia went to college, which we were thrilled about in the teen years.

Barack was like, I'm going to get reelected just so that my girls have seeking service in the teen years. You ain't sneaking off and doing nothing. You ain't supposed to be doing. Nobody's sneaking, doing anything. But at the same time, I had to give them enough rope to sneak. You know, because just like you,

it's like, you got to learn what trouble is before you run into it. You know, you got to have the baby trouble. The trouble of being at the wrong party at the wrong time. You got to, you know, learn. You got to learn how to drive, you got to get a ticket. You got to get through an airport by yourself. You have to have the trouble where the ramifications aren't big enough to ruin your life.

Because a lot of people don't get out and make it out of those situations. And also I wanted them to have some of those experiences when they were coming home to me, right? So you can still talk through it and work through it. We could talk through it, right? So you guys have such deep wisdom when it comes to fatherhood. How is that impacted your love lives? What have you, how have you grown? Ego, you know, because there's a lot of, you know, that's a lot of. With me, I'm, Michelle, I'm learning, I'm learning daily. You see, you didn't let me fill in that blank.

Yeah. I'm learning, I'm learning daily. And, you know, it's, it's really within myself and understanding. Because I think we get such a jaded point of view being professional athletes. For however long you're a professional athlete, like, and then for us to be professional athletes and then still jump right on big TV and still kind of keep. You know, we were both, I mean, he was a better score to me and accolades on scoring, but we were both somewhat role players. But we were able to transition into this media space and somewhat be stars and kind of, you know, trend setters in this space.

So I think as athletes, you have such a false sense of just reality at times and being able to look yourself in the mirror and like, hey, all this drama here and you want to point the finger at other people, you need to point it's yourself first. You know, being able to look at the mirror and understand like where your faults were and what. what I could have did better, even if it wasn't all the way my fault, what could I have did better? So really just a lot of reflection. I'm at a real reflective point of my life right now, just kind of understanding, trying to build a better relationship with God, because I know all that stuff is going to help me be better in every field. And so, again, I'm currently single. And again, not necessarily looking for anything because I think right now more is just like, I got to get little Matt all the way together.

And that's going to help grown Matt be a better man, father, owner, friend, and business partner. What if I tell you if you cried once, you'd find a love of your life? I can't wait to be there because it's going to help me too. I need it. You could do it. You can do it. You've got to find it. It'll come when your boys, it's going to come from your boys.

It's funny. You said that. I'm just thinking there's, there'll be 17 and I only have another year and a half with them and they're gone. When they're gone, that might be the time. My gosh. It drives them to college. I'll be in a year. Go with them.

Well, we had one of those moments with Barack when we dropped Malia off because we still did because we tried to do all the normal stuff even as president. Right. You know, so she had to go a day earlier so that the presidential motor gate, we could go on the campus, do the thing, you know, take her boxes up because I was like, we're not farming that out. You know, she can't even home, right? So, you know, so we're up there. their roommates, parents got to come early. And so we're doing all the college stuff. I'm, you know, making her bed because whenever they went to camp or somewhere,

I said, I'll make your bed once and I'll make it really neat and nice. And that's it. Got her room all set up. And you could tell Barack was totally clueless. He didn't know where to be. We gave him a lamp from IKEA and said, put it together. Here, you take this box. You put it together.

There was nothing to put together. But he was over there with his lamp for like two hours. And then came time we took her to lunch at some restaurant. And then we had to leave. We had to get in this motorcade and leave the baby behind, you know, and to watch her standing at that restaurant, ugh, waving goodbye. So I'm crying.

You know, for our kids in the car, you know, we're driving back to the Air Force One in the motorcade. You know, we're a little quiet and I hear this. That was. Literally the sign. I had to look over and be like, the agents are like, sir, are you okay? And he's like, it's like, man, just do it. Just cry.

Let it go. Make it happen, you know. But it was like, you know, there was just a deep kind of, you know, leaving your kids in a place, you know, and saying that's it. Yeah. Yeah, I want to ride to be. You want to ride with me to drop off to college? By the way, guys, Michelle's going to be joining us today. So be on your best behavior.

It's like I'm here. I'm here. I'll make you bed while your father cries over the lamp. I'm looking forward to it. I don't know what it is. I just feel like I lost my mom. That's how he and I became close. I lost my mom in 2007.

And I had to be the rock for the family. My dad was miserable. My sorrow. You know, my dad was lost. My sister was her. Everyone wasn't. But I had to, like, I played a game the next day. You know what I've always kind of had to be like, no matter who it

was. I had to be the rock for everyone else. And it's just like, there was at times where I'm hurt, but it's just like, it won't, how do you release it? So I'm hoping. Have you picked people that you can let go with? I'm getting back to the question of relationships. And Stephen, you haven't said at word. I'm ready to answer. I just don't want to interrupt the problem. Yeah, go ahead. Well, with me, I just, I made a lot of mistakes. I've always held myself accountable. Yeah. That's my biggest thing. But one thing I've always did, I've always kept my heart in the right place. And I've always live my life to show God I deserve everything he blessed me with. So I have a big heart. So even when people do me bad, if I was done bad in relationships, I've always did what I was

supposed to do to make sure the other person, you know, was taken care of what was right. So I don't feel bad about any situation I've been in because I've always left that person better leaving me than when they came with me. So just experiencing me being accountable. I held myself accountable for everything. So I don't, I don't regret anything, you know, I've done. what I was supposed to do. I've been a father. I've been a friend. I've been the guy when I was treated like crap and still stood up and provided for people when they didn't deserve it. So it's just being able to look yourself in the mirror, you know, good or bad. I've been one of those guys that came up with a sound. I make love to pressure. So nothing would make me become a bad person,

become a bad human being. My heart is always in the right place. So I think that's how I handle every situation. You know, this time of year reminds me of growing up on the south side of Chicago with my sister Michelle and the comfort meals we would eat during the fall. You know, when the big fall recipes start coming out, you also have to worry about the mess they make. But you know what's changed the game for my family is this amazing little machine called mill. You just drop in those apple cores and pumpkin peels, the dinner scraps. and Mill automatically transforms them overnight. It's completely odorless and no fruit flies.

Mill holds weeks of food scraps and turns them into these nutrient-rich grounds, and I love being able to work them right into our soil. Knowing that the food I couldn't eat is now helping our plants grow is such a satisfying feeling. But you have to live with Mill to really get it. Good thing is that you can try it risk-free and get $75 off at mill.com slash IMO. That's mill.com slash IMO. And you both are really powerful examples of building a life beyond a very long, prosperous, successful set of careers. talk about how, you know, you even, you know, are able to wrap your heads around the next level of success without holding on too much to not being able to do the thing that made you you.

And that's a whole mental challenge right there. You know, we see it. We see people not being able to walk away from their sport, not because they haven't achieved everything. But it almost feels like you're scared. You haven't thought as much as great as you are. It is clear that you haven't thought about anything. What's next? You guys have managed that pretty doggone well.

I think for me, I took pride in being a team player while I was playing. So after basketball, you never know what's going to happen or what's going to go. But I think for me being a solid guy, being a good friend to a lot of different people, good things happen for you. I had no idea what was going to happen after basketball, to be honest, no idea. But I think, like I said, my relationship with Matt and building, just having an opportunity of the podcast is taking us to spaces that I never even believe. So for me, good things always happen to me because I wake up every day to show guard, I deserve what you, whatever it's coming in my life, I'm getting ready for it. I'm not waiting until my blessing come. I'm getting ready if I live my life that way.

And he'll tell you I'm the biggest protect out of all our friends. I jump in front of everything for everybody. I'm lawyer to a fault. But God continues to bless me because I love hard and I love my people hard. So the only reason I'm in this position is because I'm a good teammate. I have a great team around me. I would never take credit for where I'm in my life today and the success we have. And I got a great team and a great group of people that we treat each other like family.

We respect each other. If you can't be a good teammate, if you can't learn how I respect people and treat people how you want to be treated, you're not going to have any success, especially as a basketball player, because after basketball, they already come into you with expecting you to know everything and off your name. Well, a lot of us don't know anything but basketball. I don't know. I could just, my journey's been crazy fun because, I mean, I think there was such a,

not a misconception, because I think a reputation to earn whether good or bad. And I had a borderline reputation. I was a habitual line stepper in the NBA. But I was also at the same time understanding that this isn't going to last forever. I just look at myself as being so lucky that I played 14 years, got paid for 16 years to put a ball in a hoop. That's a dream. Like, you want to call that a job? To me, that's a dream.

And then now I'm getting paid great money to talk and inspire and motivate and educate and talk trash and have fun. So to me, like, I don't feel like I've ever worked a day in my life. You know what I mean? I love hearing that. And, you know, we have a question from our listener. But before we get to the question, I would love it if you would talk to our listeners about what's really good about the NBA, but also what's really hard about it. Because I don't think, I don't hear people talking about it. Anything.

It sounds like a wonderful fantasy. It always sounds like a wonderful thing. But having now worked in the front office of a couple of teams, I've seen behind the curtain. And I would love for you to share your thoughts on what's really, really hard about it. I'll just say two things. Two, I mean, one, everybody don't know how to be a professional. You have to learn. It's not just about basketball once you get there.

I was blessed to have David Robbins and Tim Duncan, Steve Kerr, Steve Smith, all those guys in my early years. Because I learned how to be a professional. I watched these guys. A lot of these kids have no, there's no vets in the game. So they're not taught how to be a professional. For me, that's really it. And being a professional. And the politics side.

On and off the court. Yeah, but you got to learn how to do with the politics, too. It's a lot of times I should have made the All-Star Games. I didn't make it because of a guy who wasn't in trouble. He wasn't better to me, but he just wasn't in trouble. And he made it. So you got to learn how to deal with the politics to him in NBA. That's a big part of it.

Just know, first informant, it's a business. And you're very lucky to be a part of that business. And you've got to keep the first thing first. And I give professional athletes today a lot of credit. And not that we're, I mean, I'm eight years removed. But in those eight years, the game has changed so much and the world has changed so much. Like, there's so much outside distraction. Now, on top of the money, these kids are getting, I mean, these kids are getting, they're making

$80 million a year and just from this, on top of all the, you know what I mean? So it's just like it's kind of just understanding, keeping the first thing first, knowing that it's a business, knowing that, you know, the average in a career is three and a half years. You know what I mean? So what's going to set you apart? And I said earlier, when you get there, it's 10% physical and 90% mental. So how are you carrying yourself and understanding now from the same? second. We had, I couldn't imagine if I had cameras on me at UCLA. I wouldn't be here or even

early in my career because we were just off the chain. We didn't know until we got around vets. And now the game, the NBA desperately, and I'm sure a lot of sports, it's getting younger and younger. So it's not the blind, but almost the blind leading the blind. When we came in the league, there was 38, 39, 40 year olds, smoking cigarettes and locker room, but just, hey, this is, let's go buy your first sets of suits. You know, let's stay away from them, those women. You know, that's not waste your money on there's there's none of that in the game anymore so i mean what there's so much given a lot is a lot is is is expected and just you got to keep the first thing first in today's because there's just so many people with the money and with the exposure now of

athletes there's so many different distractions and so many people grabbing at you but when it's gone it's gone you know when it's gone it's gone so understand it and too enjoy the journey i know as athletes were always next guy we lost last night or i had 30 last night but tonight we play, enjoy the ride because the ride goes so fast. And if you don't, if you don't sit back and appreciate the ups and downs, the goods and bads, why you're there, when you're done, you're going to be like, damn, I wish I would have. I wish I would have. I wish I would have. So the business, keep the first thing first and enjoy the journey. So we've got a question from Tony in New York. What's up, Tony? I grew up with humble beginnings in Baltimore. And today,

I find myself in a very different place. I'm successful, married, and raising a mixed race child in suburbia. As a black father, I carry the weight of my own lived experiences. I often find myself wrestling with how much of that to pass onto my son. Recently, his daycare flagged him

for aggressive behavior, and it hit a nerve. I want to raise a strong, confident black boy who understands his value, but I also know that the world doesn't always give our children the benefit of the doubt. I feel attention

between wanting to protect him by teaching him restraint and caution and not wanting to suppress his autonomy or spirit in the process. So my question is, how do you raise a child in a new reality without letting your old reality shape too much of their world? Like how do you guide them with wisdom born of struggle without projecting your fears that may no longer serve them? Oh, Tony. Great question, Tony.

And I can tell by the way that, that's my favorite group, I can tell by the way that the question, he wrote the question that he is very aware of just what's going on. Both sides. And I would say being a biracial man, it was different from me because it wasn't the norm growing up. But I think now, thankfully, the world is becoming more of a melting pot and it's more accepted.

And I had the same thoughts as the twins were coming up. Like my wife, they, people try to kill me. I mean, I had to move in all this kind of stuff. So do I pour that trauma into my kids? Do I not make them aware of it? Do they learn about it? So luckily we live in a society today where I feel like, you know, what is it, interracial or whatever the situation,

biracial children are more of the norm. So I just think it's a fine line. And I don't think this is a blatant answer. I think it's a situation by situation circumstance where you have to, you know, you take individual situations and break them down because you're going to come across racism at some point. And you don't want to throw so much fear in them that they start hating other people, but you also want them to be naive and understand like, hey, there are some people that were grown and raised a different way that we don't necessarily agree with. And they were taught hate instead of love and keep them in their place.

but I'm also a firm believer like, don't put your hands on me or don't put your hands on my children. You know what I mean? I'm for peace until you cross that line. So you always have to be able to protect yourself and defend yourself. But hopefully, you know, you teach them the right way to have a broader understanding of what this crazy world is about. And they, you know, they approach those situations with, you know,

confidence first and foremost and an understanding. I started something that says love for all, who have love for, and I always put every hand, every color emoji. But at the same time, you want to let you, especially a black young man, you want to let him know who he is, but also let him know that you don't need to demean the next race to make yourself look better. I think that's what a lot of races feel like, and all that makes yourself look better, you have to demean the next.

And that's something we don't do on our show. A lot of shows do that. Find something to talk about demean somebody and try to go viral. We've never done that. So I've always taught that to my kids. Like, know who you are first. Because once you know who you are, can't nobody knock you off your rock. Can't nobody make you say something or do something that you'll regret because you know who you are first.

Second, understand that people are going to say things, but you never have to demean someone to make yourself look better. I think the world is real caught up on that. I'm going to make him look bad so I can look. No, I've always started to my kids. So I've been grateful to that my kids have been growing up a lot of around the different races. So I grew up a lot around the Mexicans. My best friend is Jewish. So Josh Pashton was a coach of UNLV

So I think just the way I live in my life That kind of knocked that stigma off my kids But the same time I let them know who they are Because when you are a young black man Things, whether you understand it or not You're going to be treated differently You're going to be looked at differently And a lot of it's going to be harder for you than the next

That's just how it is as a black man That's just how it is And once they understand that Then they'll be willing to embrace it and don't look at it as starting behind. That's a great point I mean, so I've got a son who's fully black, older 33, and then I've got two younger sons who are biracial. And I've always thought, and even with my daughter, who's black,

talking about communicating about race early, helping them understand that it's just life's not fair right now. Wasn't fair when we were coming up, and it's not fair now. It's better now, but it's not fair. you're going to be looked upon a certain way because you're black. And I think having that discussion early help them prepare for things as they come in, and we just try and talk about it. We try and talk our way through.

And to Tony's point, I was always worried about my kids being mislabeled as overaggressive because they were black. And so we talked about when you're in us, if you go into a situation, you have to be aware that some people may think you're overaggressive. And that doesn't mean change who you are. But just be aware. Read the room.

Read the room. That's a great one. Read the room. Read the room. Because there are going to be times because my mom always talked about this. She always feels like she made me too. non-aggressive and made her overaggressive.

And that was the times back in the 60s and 70s. So I don't want them to lose their ability to have a little edge about them. But I also want them to be aware that if you show that edge, you're going to get profiled. I just, again, I feel like it's an unfortunate situation, but black and brown parents have different conversations than the rest of the world. Because again, as I mentioned, like, race is just a part of, hey, this is how you're splitting. This is just another hurdle we're going to have to hop. You know, this is not a conversation that, you know, white families have to worry about police discrimination and people looking at them a certain way because it's just not.

So again, that's why when I initially asked a question, you take this in stride as well. This is just another teaching point. And again, it's something that they're going to face at some point and just make sure they're prepared and ready for it. One other thing I would just add to Tony is, and how old was his son, or is his son, did he say? But when it comes to school, because that's something we've talked about. You know, schools are, you know, the curriculum hasn't been thoughtful in about 100,000 years, right? I mean, it's not keeping up with the modern child and is definitely not thinking about who boys are. So a lot of the curriculum, how the day is structured, that doesn't work.

for boys. You know, boys need to be moving, thinking, you know, girls are different, right? But everybody is taught the same. And I'm sure that aggressive label at school, which hear that a lot among, you know, schools labeling black kids, kids of color early, that is a dilemma. Because once you get tracked or marked, then, you know, so I would say to Tony, then that means that as a parent, you've got to be involved in school. You know, because you can talk to your kid till they're blue in the face. That's important. But it is important, especially if you have a black son, for them to know you and to know that I will come up there. You know, I will come up there in a proper way. But this black boy, mixed boy, has someone looking out for him. And I think that that becomes even more critical for boys, for mixed race boys, for black. boys, that parents, you can love your son, but especially when they're young, and they

haven't developed their own voice, you know, that's what being an involved parent is, you know, and for a father to be involved, you know, that's a big deal. You know, that's a big deal. So that may mean go to some of these field trips, you know, go to a parent, make sure you go to all, because Barack went to every parent teacher conference their entire life. In the White House, you name it. He was going to go. motorcate, motorcycles, swap men. We're there. Everybody.

We were there. Shutting down Mass Avenue, getting to this parent-teacher conference. That means a lot, though, by the way. That means a lot. It meant a lot to the girls, but it said something to the school. It's like it's not just me,

but their father knows what's going on. So you guys are engaged fathers, which is beautiful. Being engaged in that school structure, just knowing, you know, That doesn't mean you want to have to go up to the school and tear stuff up. But I will if I need to. I will.

And that's implied in my presence. You know one thing I will say. Let me say this right. I know exactly what you mean. My daughter's going to sixth grade. But since she's been in kindergarten, I've been going to her school. I've put her school in a day. Donodaddy.

But I'm not going there to be famous, but I'm letting you know. This child here is love. That's right. And her daddy's going to be here. You know what I mean? And also, too, one more thing. I think I'm okay with aggression because I think you can learn to tone that back. But I would rather be aggressive than have my child be walked over and disrespected and made fun of.

Like I said, we can tune like aggressiveness in sports. We can tune that back. But if you don't have that in you, that's hard to teach. So I'm okay with aggressiveness as long as it's following the rules because that's something you can, you know, you can form and structure and pull back if you need to. But on the flip side, if you're someone that just gets walked over, that's going to make me go crazy. Yeah, yeah. And that makes me want to address part of the question that Tony said that he was, he was worried that he was imposing his lived experience on the kid. And what I would say to Tony, embrace your lived experience because that's going to help little Tony later in life. Because it is powerful to know that your parent has gone through something similar and made it out. Experience is the best teacher.

That's right. It's absolutely. Absolutely. And so, good question. Yeah. Great question. Shout out to Tony, man. Yeah.

Really good question. Good luck to you and your son, man. Yeah. And the fact that he's asking the question means he's involved. He cares, yeah. And we need more fathers like that. And I think that's, you know, you guys are modeling that. I mean, I love the way you talk about your kids, how you are, you know, you're not bystander parents, that you are actively thinking about how to raise them.

And that is not just, that's not the mother's job exclusively. You know, it really matters. And you've seen it in a broken home or not divorced or whatever. Kids can understand that. It didn't work out, right? Things don't work out. People don't get along sometimes, you know. But that doesn't mean that you're not present.

That doesn't mean you get scared away. And money shouldn't dictate that. You know, kids do not care about how much money you have. I don't care if you are unemployed, whether you were in jail once before, whether you were on crack at some point. Kids still want to see you in their lives just trying. You know, and I think that you guys model that in the way that you are actively trying to think about the words you say, how you show up in your kids' lives. And I think it's important for our listeners to see that up close from some all the smoke

athlete. Folks who could tell like it is, still be engaged in sports, still know a lot about a lot of things and still show up as good men and good fathers. So we are grateful. We are grateful to you. Keep doing what you're doing, guys. Thank you. Yeah.

You got a couple fans here. Thank you for taking the time. Really. I'm honored to be here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to be here.

You know,