IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - The Gift of Girlfriends with Denielle, Sharon, and Kelly

Episode Date: September 30, 2020

Michelle Obama sits down with three of her dearest friends—Denielle Pemberton-Heard, Dr. Sharon Malone, and Kelly Dibble—to talk about women’s friendship and navigating the White House years. Find the episode transcript here: http://spoti.fi/TMOP_transcripts  See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

One thing that I appreciate is that you guys were always good sports about following me on my various health journeys. Oh, my gosh. Look about Kim, David. Don't look like, don't row your eyes. My friend, you've been looking so weary. You say you're fine, but I know you're not clearly. Why don't you breathe a little bit with me? Hi, I'm Michelle Obama, and this is the Michelle Obama podcast.

And in this episode, we're going to be talking about friendship. Well, hey, you all. Hey, girl, hey. For this conversation, I thought it might make sense to bring in some of my closest girlfriends. Everyone's off. I'm just turning this off. My phone's over there. You know what, let me just make it off.

I know I turn it off. I'm like crazy. You're making them crazy. You'll probably recognize one of them, and that's Sharon Malone, who I'm so glad to have back on the podcast. We are also joined by our good friends, Danielle Pemberton Hurd, and Kelly Dibble. Hi, I'm Danielle. Hi, I'm Kelly. Hello, and this is Sharon. Now, these three have all got great careers in medicine, business, and public affairs, and I met each of them at various points of my life. We got into all that during the episode, so I won't spoil it here. As it always does,

when we're together, the conversation ends up in a number of different places. It's a pretty good window into what I love about my girlfriends. We can reminisce. We can talk and laugh with each other at each other's stories. But most of all, we can talk about the important stuff. What's going on in the world, in our families, whatever we're thinking about, really. We're just there for each other when it counts, for a laugh, for a hug, for whatever we need. Now, the four of us recorded this conversation not long after the police killing of George Floyd. And so all those feelings, grief, anger, outrage, were top of mind. We're in the midst of not only a pandemic, but, you know, we've just, we just witnessed a murder of a black man in public. And I know that we talk about race as a group

of friends all the time. There's a level of pain and frustration, you know, just. fatigue with being black in America. How are you all thinking about these things? Sheer and I were talking about this on the way over about we just witnessed us a murder by suffocation. And they're like, black people, are you okay? Keep doing what you're doing. Right. And oh, by the way, continue working. And can you now draw up of diversity and inclusion? Right. Yeah. And it's just like unreal. You kind of get tired of being the fixer. You know, Everyone looks to you. I mean, you can relate to that.

Everyone looks to you in the party to fix it. What is Michelle doing? What is she saying? What is she going to do? Can she fix it and bring people together? And people are looking to us in our respective roles to do the same thing. And you're just tired. You're trying to, you know, maintain your sense of self.

You're trying to hold up your family. You've got kids that are frankly traumatized because, as Kelly said, they've watched on live, television, someone suffocate someone with their hand in their pocket, looking at a camera and knowing in their heart that nothing's going to happen to them. And that's a very scary thing for these kids to process. And you're trying to be there for them, but also be there for the young people that you work with, the people you lead. A lot of people look to us, has now senior people in our lives, not just as mothers, but as mentors. And everybody like, it feels like everybody lays this at sort of the feet of, and I'll say,

black women, you know, it's like make us feel better, help us understand. You know, it's almost as if, you know, these concerns that we have and knowing what goes on in the community with young black men, young black women for that matter. We've all known it and you feel it and we process it when we send our children out there in the world. But then there's been this people don't believe you, you know? They think, oh, you're just being overly sensitive or, you know, it's not really like that. That was years ago. And when you say people, you mean white people.

I do. Our white friends, our white colleagues. You know, I do. I do. People who don't experience this in their. lives. And even when you see it, there's still an asterisk. Well, it wasn't really what you saw. Don't believe, don't believe your line eyes, you know. That's kind of the story of Black America being gaslit for forever, just simply because, no, no, no, that didn't happen that way.

He was resisting. She was, you know. Or they were imperfect, and therefore they, they deserve what happened to them or somehow it diminishes the whole. horror of what happened to them. Well, and the other thing, too, is, you know, this, you're working in a corporate setting and where everyone's well educated and they think, well, this is something that doesn't happen within, you know, our purview. I mentioned on a call that I had last week with my legal group about an incident in Central Park where a woman who was walking her dog, dog was not on a leash. She was a University of Chicago booth graduate.

So, smart woman, felt threatened by a black man who said, Oh, this was this the bird watching? This is the bird watching. And who was a Harvard grad, and he was a bird watcher. So you're talking about two people who are both very well educated. So it's not an issue around ignorance, you know, where prejudice is just limited to the ignorant. These are two well-educated people. but her perception of him was a black man who was attacking her,

and she knew that she could call the police, knowing that anything could happen afterwards, right? But she was willing to bring that on because he says something to her about... Well, she weaponized. She weaponized the police. And she knew that she could do it. So it's almost going back to, I don't know,

I mean, you can look at Emmett Till, you know, knowing that you, as soon as you call foul, right, with a black man to introduce the police. Anything can happen, even the worse. But it was just, it's not as dramatic as seeing a murder, but the fact that she knew that she could bring harm to him and that the police wouldn't question her. That incident in Central Park,

which infuriated all of us as we watched it, it was not unfamiliar. I mean, this is what the white community doesn't understand about being a person of color in this nation is that there are daily slights, you know, in our workplaces where people talk over you or people don't even see you. I know, Danielle, you talked about being in meetings with people who can see you as a professional, but then you step out into the street and those same people don't even see you. Yeah. I've had it several times where I've presented to members of my team,

people that I've worked with peers, go downstairs in the elevator, go out to lunch, and they walk right by you on the street. You're standing in line next to them at Sweet Green, and they look right through you. They assume they don't know you. They have no use for you. And yet, you just help solve their legal problem or help make them some money or save them some money. But then when you're out in the world, you're just an invisible person. Danielle and I, when the girls were little, this was when I was first lady. I am Michelle Obama, the first lady of the United States. Of America.

Of America. And we had just finished taking the girls to a soccer game. We were stopping to get ice cream. And I had told the Secret Service to stand back because we were trying to be normal, trying to go in. It was Hagen-Daz, wasn't it? Exactly. Hagen-Taz.

And there was a line. And once again, when I was. I'm just a black woman, I notice that white people don't even see me. They're not even looking at me. So I'm standing there with two little black girls, another black female adult. They're in soccer uniforms. And a white woman cuts right in front of us to order. Like she didn't even see us. And the girl behind the counter almost took her order. And I had to stand up because I know Danielle was like, well, I'm not going to cause a scene with Michelle Obama. That's it. exactly right. I was like, mm-hmm. So I stepped up and I said, excuse me, as like, you don't see us

four people standing right here. You just jumped in line. She didn't apologize. She never looked me in my eye. She didn't know it was me. All she saw was a black person or a group of black people. Or maybe she didn't even see that because we were that invisible. I can tell you a number of stories like that when I've been completely incognito during the eight years in the White House, walking the dogs on the canal, people will come up and pet my dogs, but will not look me in the eye. They don't know it's me. And it's, you know, what white folks don't understand, it's like, that, that is so telling of how white America views people who are not like them. You know, we don't exist. And when we do exist, we exist as a threat.

And that, that's exhausting. You know, I live, you know, a rather diverse life, I think, you know, and I have white friends and I have my black friends that I've known. But very few of my white friends have black friends. Like, I'm your only black friend. And I said, that's interesting. It's always amazed me that we've lived in Washington, D.C. for as long as we have. And I've been here for 30 years. And my husband and I will go to a party, and it will.

be like, still just us? Just us, you know. But it allows people to accept black people one by one because it's you. I like you, but that doesn't change my view generally. I still feel how I feel about them, them, you know, oh, well, those people and them. And somehow you have allowed me to be an honorary white person, you know, because you get to be in the group, but you are not like the rest of them. It's still like the talent of 10th.

Yeah. You can't take the whole group. There's just like you've got some exceptions. And unless you're, you know, walking around with your title on your sleeve, they really don't distinguish you from them. But this is also why my girlfriend group, while it is diverse,

it has been so important for me to have black women in my crew throughout my life professionally because there's just a certain relief that comes when you don't have to walk into your friend group and explain yourself. My group of female friends aren't calling me to say, what can I do? You guys are calling me to say, how you doing, girl? You know, let's talk. Let's roll back a bit and talk about how I met each of you because each of you represents a different phase in my particular development. But Kelly, we, we. We met in city government, but our friendship developed because we were pregnant.

The same time. At the same time with Malia and Kelly has twin girls born almost a month apart. Right. So July 4th and July 22nd. So the same month. So as a working mother, the first thing was like how do you balance your work life and motherhood? But the main thing was, what's the model of a mother? So part of it was getting the girls together for play days because we knew moms did that.

Our kids were six months years old sitting on the floor, back to back, and oblivious of each other. But we had each other. And it gave us a chance to have brunch, have a bottle of champagne, you know, and talk about what was going on in our lives and the adjustments we were making, you know, to our home life, you know, the responsibilities between husband and wife. around the kids, you know, and we, and we progressed through, you know, soccer games and getting museum. Birthday parties. You know, where there was, and we had summer babies, so we had, like, the first birthdays were crucial because, you know, they survived us for all year, right?

It was a big deal. Big deal. And we were at, you were still at the condo on Everett. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's when you learn, you know, when you have the big, the first big, because we, we all went through this, oh, we can organize this birthday. It's just a birthday party in the house. And I remember Barack going, we don't need to rent a facility, you know? It's like, why would we spend that money? Why don't we just do it ourselves? Right. And then you're exhausted. Exhausted. With food and you got all these

people and folding chairs. Oh, my God. That's right. We did that. And we did Adam's playground for the girls first. And I still have pictures where everyone was, it must have been 100 degrees like that day. And people were just melting. That was the first and last at home birthday. It was. That was it. You realize when you have a kid's birthday party, you've got the parents. Right. So you've got to entertain the children and the moms and the dads.

And it's like, whoa, that wasn't quite what, but for God's sake, don't leave them. Right. Please. Whatever you do. Stay here. I'll feed you. It's a double-edged sword there. But that's where those little birthday parties see the Chuckie cheeses, the little, those, you know, I would pay.

any amount of money. Oh, yeah. To be able to go somewhere, pay somebody for two-out, my gym. My gym. You know, they had that stuff organized. Yes. And all you had to do was bring some pizza. You would leave, wouldn't have to clean up.

But we went through a range of those. We sent a goodie bag. That was all you needed. I always feel for these mothers' parents who try to do this stuff by themselves, because let me tell you, our girlfriend group, when our kids were, infants all the way up through teenagers. There was a group of mothers in Chicago and we did everything together. When Barack was on the road, your husband was traveling. And he was on the road for a long time because he was in Springfield before we ran for U.S. Senate. But all of us were in

some state of professional need and having a group of women that we could call on each other. And just, you know, it wasn't like we were leaving our kids, but just having. another adult in the room for the day that you could go, is this working for you? And also with the girls. I mean, they still feel a comfort level. With each other. As a family, as a cousin. You know, our girls see themselves more as cousins than they do. Well, I think all of our kids. Danielle, we, you were one of my White House moms.

I was a newbie. I was a newbie. I had no prior history. And just sort of, you know, we came together really over the girls just by chance being in the same school and then being assigned to the same basketball team. And I think the first time I really reached out to you was, you know, the most important thing of basketball game is snacks. And we were assigned randomly to be snack parents together. And I said, now, how do you serve snacks with the president and the first lady of the United States? How's the first lady to make a Costco run? Right. And I literally sent, you know, because again, in the early years, getting to you was through intermediaries.

And I sent an email and said, you know, hi, I'm a parent at the school. We've been assigned to snack day. And, you know, as I would with any parent, let's divvy it up and figure out where we're going. going to do. And the person who worked for you at the time said, oh my gosh, thank goodness, thanks for reminding us. It would have been really embarrassing to show up to be the president and the first lady and not have snacks. No snacks. They would have talked about me like I know. They sure would have. You saved me. So I thought I was doing something. And what did you bring that day? I thought I was doing something. I was a traitor shows. It was. It was. It was nutritious. I went to

Aider Joe's and got those killer Clementines. And I was very proud of myself. What did we bring? Well, you guys showed up with coolers marked, you know, West Wing, President of the United States, brought in by armed men and wheeled up, wheeled everything out. And you had a very diverse group of beverages, waters, gatorades, all high-end stuff. Everything.

Just your choice. Just your choice. What would you do? Well, see, back in the day, it wasn't, like you said, I wasn't doing the Costco run. I would, you know, go approach the White House chef or, and then they wouldn't know how to, like, just chill out, you know. If I brought cookies, they were freshly baked, White House cookies individually wrapped with those in packages.

And you're kind of going, oh, you know, this is kind of overboard. And even Sasha and Malie would be like, why can't you just bring regular snacks? Why couldn't you just get some chips? avoid cookies and just bring them up. And it's like, I can't shout. Well, and see, I was always the mom for getting snack day. So I'd be at the soccer game and I'm like, damn. I'm like, I said, Eric, Eric, okay, can you hold here?

I've got to run to the store and come back like, yeah, I just got these. I would so forget the snack. And I, you know, and when you have three kids. And it's like so many different directions people are going. And, you know, and I just remember being a mom and feeling and having to work. And I used to just have moments of just feeling just woefully inadequate, you know, because there would be the mom who'd come in with home, the decorated cupcakes and whatever. And I'm like, is it that day?

Is it Christmas? Was I supposed to bring those? It's like, did, are you still playing soccer? It's still soccer season? Oh, no. More on the Michelle Obama podcast after the break. Hearing you talk about what it's like, what it was like that first time when I invited Olivia over for a play date and you had to pick her up.

So you have an appointed time to show up. It's not like, hey, I'll just get there and drop off whenever. No, no, can't do that. You have to have, you know, license, ID, et cetera. So they have all of your information down to your social security number. You pull into the gate. And then somebody's got to. to ask for that. I mean, that's the other thing. So you're going, so there are three or four exchanges

of getting all of this information just to drop your child off for a play date. So we get there. I drop Olivia off. Again, you don't get out of the car. You just let your child out of the car. Well, you said you go and got your car washed. Oh, oh, absolutely. I wasn't going to roll up to the White House in a dirty car. So I got my car washed. I think I had my hair done and my nails done. I was Not going up there looking raggedy. And I made sure that Olivia had herself together. So we go in. I drop her off.

I'm told, please be back at one. Again, at that time, we lived outside of the city. So I'm killing time in D.C. trying to, you know, just wait. And at about 12.30, I get the call. Restricted number. Hello? Yes.

Is this Danielle? Pemberton heard, yes. This is the White House calling, and I'm thinking, heart drop. What did she break? What did she do? What happened? I'll be right over. And they're like, no, no, no.

The first family would like for her to stay a couple of more hours. They're going to watch a movie. I'm like, oh, okay. So again, I'm driving around D.C. Just went to CBS like three different times in different parts of the city. I'm like killing time. Read a nod. And so then finally, at the appointed time, I go back to pick Olivia up and suddenly I see security moving around.

And I'm getting nervous. I'm like, oh, I'm supposed to be here. I'm kind of standing back. And then this one comes popping outside. And she comes out and she's like, hi. I'm like, oh, oh, hi. Hi. And that was really like the first time that we talked one on one just quickly.

but now thinking back and knowing you, it was like you were clamoring to get out of that house. You were just like, and if there's an excuse for me just to go stand in the driveway, I will do so. Well, I also thought I am still a black mother, you know. So I figured this child had just been at our house. I know her mother would want to see me, you know. It's like I can't act like I can just have people's kids over and not know them. So I thought, okay, Olivia's been in our house all day. I haven't even met her mother. I need to go down like a normal person and say, hey, she's safe. We aren't crazy. You've seen us on TV, but you need to see us in the flesh. And I also need to see you. And so we started talking. And I thought, I like this woman, they are going to be friends. It's like me building up my posse here in D.C. It's like I need to have some other mothers who. who can help me in Sidwell, who I think we shared the same values.

You know, I just got a sense of Danielle that she wasn't playing around. Danielle was my first, like, real friend in D.C. Sharon, while our families are very close, I didn't meet you in parenthood. Right. We met each other in the realm of this political beast that would become our lives. And we talk a lot about the first time. We kind of connected across the table where I was like, your reaction to the situation was the same as mine. This, again, was before the presidency, but Barack was a U.S. senator.

And, you know, it was one of these, you know, interminable D.C. dinners. And, you know, it's like, and people are up and glad-handed. And, you know, and D.C. is a big, who are you and why do I need to know you? kind of town, you know, so we're there. I remember there was, and I, we won't call any names, but there are just people and just looking at how people react. And you know how you look across the table and not a word was said? You know, you look at someone's eye and you're like, okay, you know, I got it. And it was like this instant understanding of the situation. I was like, oh, yeah, okay. Sharon was as done with this event as I was, to put it, she's being kind. But

I saw this look of doneness that, you know, where everybody else seems so excited to be there. And I was like, who is that woman that feels like me? I can see it in her face. I just want to know who she is. But when we, but the first time we had really had a chance to have a real conversation was when you were here. You were the first lady. You had moved here and you were staying at the Hay Adams. And I get this call and someone says, I'm whatever, and I'm from Mrs. Obama's staff.

And I was like, what? Would you like to have lunch? And I was like, I think I can make that work. And we had lunch. And we had a lunch, which, you know, 12 to 1. What time did we finish? Like at 3. Well, that's when, you know, that was when we were in the midst of the transition.

And I would have these lunches because I said. that I just need to meet people. I need to understand Washington. And so my staff would block out these, like, okay, you have an hour meeting with this person and an hour meeting with that person. So initially it was an hour meeting that they would usually, I usually be like, okay, this is over. But when Sharon and I sat down, it was just like, this is another me. And because Sharon's husband was in my husband's administration, Eric,

Holder. Let's just not beat around the bush. That's who your husband is. So you had been in this world for so much longer than I had been. And you were a professional in your own right. And that was something that I saw. I was like, okay, this is a woman who still has a career, who is raising kids, whose husband is a big deal. But she's an even bigger deal in her own right. That's what really drew me to you, is just your attitude about this. But you were, you were, you were, were unimpressed, but you care deeply. It was that you were straddling that fence that I so often straddled as the wife of a politician in a world where women are just sort of accessories. You were not an accessory. There's a lot about this life and particularly being connected to

people that are very visible because you take it all on. You have your stuff that you're dealing with your family and your kids, and then you have to come home and try to figure out how to reconcile who your husband is with who this person you've just seen on TV or who you've had these articles and people have said these really horrible and terrible things. And it's crushing. Both of our husbands had a different temperament for this. I mean, both of them, why they were good at what they did is that they didn't take a lot of that stuff on personally.

Whereas you and I were left with all this emotional energy that you wouldn't want to put back on them because it wasn't phasing them. But we would just being able to say out loud how hard it was, how hard this was to continue to try to find a space for yourself in this world. When each of us was feeling wounded in a way that we couldn't talk about because we had to be strong, It's not just the fact that our husbands are in the public eye, but I find that in all of us. Just all of us have been sounding boards to each other, just dealing with marriage in general. Sometimes it just, you know, when you think you were just done with your husband, you know, sometimes a good old conversation over pizza night or a glass of champagne brings you to a place of kind of, okay, this isn't so bad.

With everybody here, it was a matter of us deciding, okay, I'm going to call you up. Exactly. Danielle, I'm going to invite Olivia over. We're going to sign up for something. Sharon, I'm going to ask you to go to lunch. We're going to plan, Kelly, the time to take our kids to go see Disney on ice. You have to put as much time and energy into cultural. cultivating those friendships, but that's something that women oftentimes aren't taught.

You know, you all are the people that I can go to for just a gut check, too, because that's also the beauty of the diversity of my particular girlfriends, because you all are uniquely yourselves. And I see myself differently in contrast to who you guys are. One thing that I appreciate is that you guys are. were always good sports about following me on my various health journeys. Oh, my gosh. Look about Camp David.

Don't look like, don't roll your eyes. I mean, the Camp David. That's, you know, what I called like a spa weekend. It's a spa weekend. Well, yeah, because the first one, the nice little binder that we got from your staff did call it a spa weekend. And it started with, of course, meeting at the White House and then being driven up to Camp David and where we first noticed that the traditional M&Ms and snacks that were in the cabins were no longer there. Well, after the first one I had to put wine back on, at least, thanks to Sharon.

Okay, thank you. Yes, we're about to move. Because I missed the first one, and I remember when Mel sent me a thing and said, Oh, what? No alcohol. I said, we're going to have to add some wine back. And they're like, okay. I know for me, I was always thinking about, okay, how do I get outside?

So finding something that would get me out. And so skiing wasn't something I knew I grew up with. Danielle, you skied way more than I did. I grew up, yeah. But I thought, well, when it gets cold outside and we can't go for walks or go on the Potomac, it's like, well, what are we going to do? So one year we went up to Camp David in Liberty Mountain was really just a short drive from Camp David. And so we started there on that hill.

The kids started learning there. I remember my agents, none of them could really ski. Not none that were on my detail. So everybody was taking these crash skiing courses before we went skiing. But then we put it on our radio. our screen for every, every winter. And we went to Vail, then we started going to Aspen. And that's when we learned what a mountain was, or at least I learned what a mountain was. You could see the joy that you had when we were out on the mountain, because once you put on the

ski helmet and the goggles, she's pretty anonymous, right? So there's the ability to sort of be out there and do your thing and be free and you're outside. And we spend hours on the mountain. You start an hour early before that. We'd go up an hour early. She starts out on Liberty Hill, and, you know, one year we go to Vail. The next year we're at Aspen Mountain. And next thing I know, she's, you know, progressing through the hurdles, you know, lockstep with what we affectionately call her ski husband. Because he's the ski instructor that's sort of instructing her as opposed to us, though we're in the group.

and you just see that she's getting better and better. Secret Service, frankly, could not keep up. And there's this one time where we're taking this long run. She doesn't even know what's happening, right? Because she's at the front of the pack with the ski instructor. You've got all of these Secret Service agents skiing behind her, sort of flanking her and zigzagging, crossing themselves as we come down the mountain. And I sort of ski a bit behind her to give her room,

Well, on this particular run, it was icy. She was flying down the mountain. One by one, agents started wiping out. One who will remain nameless because he got so much smack from the Secret Service for wiping out because he was like her detail lead. Other people falling. You know, I'm looking at bulletproof vests and snow going up back. You know, everyone's wiping out. And at one point I looked,

all of her agents are down and I'm still standing and I yell to them, I got her guys, I got her. Thinking to myself now, if anyone need to do anything, we are sunk. But that's my girl. I'm on her trailer. I'll take a bullet. I'm going to do my best. If I have to take my ski off and slap someone upside the head, we're going to do it. For me, one measure of like finding my crew is not just sort of how do I relate to them, but are they always?

open enough and are they kind enough and are they secure enough to be friends with my friends? And slowly over the course of many, many years, you guys have come to know each other as well, if not better and connect even better than you connect with me. Right. And it's the sorority of, you know, it's that circle of trust, I should say, that we had because, you know, we had this really tight group of people who knew you could say what you wanted to say, you could do what you wanted to, and it was going nowhere. To this day, you know, nothing has ever leaked out from this group about what was going on because we understood how important it was to guard your privacy. But that's the way it is with, you know, with your

girlfriends that you trust, whether they're first lady or they're anybody. You know, I have girlfriends that, you know, honestly, that I would say, if I kill somebody, they would say, girl, let me get a shovel. Okay. Let's just go, you know. And, you know, I mean, because that, you know, and to be able to have that kind of relationship with somebody where, you know, I could say something really terrible and you know I don't mean it about the person like my husband.

But I'm just saying, all right, I feel that way today. Right, right. But you know that you're not going to sit there and look at him and say, yeah, you're right. That's right. No, you just know that that's how it is. That's the cycle of how you're feeling and to let someone vent. And it's an amazing pressure release because I can say it to you so I don't have to say. It's right.

Because I think you're right because you're still trying to protect him, right? And all of this in terms of managing your emotions and how you were feeling to, so you're burdening him with it. You know, you already had the weight of the world, literally, you know, on his shoulders. And so I think you developed a plan. I mean, I think you took it as, you know, this is my job to figure out in an unhealthy way. And it's a, and I'm telling you, it's a terrible place to be as a spouse when whatever it is that's bothering you always seems petty compared to, oh, I've just got to go solve midi's peace today. And it's like, well, did you pick those?

Did you leave that on a kitchen counter? I mean, it's like, it always, you know, so you're like, but yeah, that's where your girlfriend group, and again, taking this away from the White House. And from me in particular, I mean, the truth is, is that we've all been that way with each other. And with the women and women friends in our lives, where, you know, having a crew that you can go to and say whatever is on your mind and not be judged for it, give yourself a space to blow off some steam. This is why when I look at some of these reality TV, I have a love-hate relationship with it, but I never like that. the way they portray women friendships because they're always so catty and bickering and argumentative in ways that I have never experienced among my women friends ever. And that has meant so much to me to have women who are secure enough to have friendships like that that aren't

possessive but are, you know, they're broad and they're open and they're inviting. You know, if I ever get to a point of friendship where I can't say, tell the truth and know that the trust that we've built up can sustain whatever that truth or whatever that, maybe it isn't even, maybe it's my truth and it's not your truth. But, you know, if a friendship can't sustain that, then something else is wrong. And at some point in time, it's going to come out. It's going to show itself. but you can't do that if you don't have trust. You know, you can't do that if you don't know that you can come back from it and that there's genuine love.

You know, I know for me, the people that can get me riled up are people who I care deeply about. I have such wonderful friends in my life that it's, you know, I want as much for them as I want for me. But I feel like you all feel the same way. You know, I get that back. That's why these relationships, sustain themselves over so many years because I feel like you guys have literally

ridden and died with me. That's what we do. What you got going on, Kelly? I just had a moment. I just had a moment. You know, I have my moment. I know. I know what's the moment.

We love you, Kelly. I know. I was thinking that your girlfriend's required of like the study. And even if your personal relationships are kind of going up and now, you guys have been my rock for the last couple of years. But isn't it amazing how quickly, though, the time has gone by. You know, because I have always thought of myself as the new friend, like you, relative to, and I'm like, wait a minute, that was 13 years ago. You know, new relative to, you know, we have sort of moved into a different. category. And I tell you, and it is, I mean, I can't tell you how many happy memories I have of all the

things, collectively, individually, you know, that we have had over these past, you know, 11 years. A group of good girlfriends provides a lifeline that is unlike any other. When we can lean on each other, when we can learn from each other and show up for one another no matter what we're going through, that is how we grow. It's an evolution that happens not just day by day, but moment by moment, interaction by interaction, all of these little sparks of connection that build on one another. And together, they compose the magic of a lot. life. It doesn't have to be anything flashy. It doesn't need to involve flash bulbs and red carpets. But those sparks we have with the people in our lives keep pushing us forward, keep helping us evolve, and keep helping us become even more of who we are. So I want to thank Kelly, Danielle,

and Sharon for their time. But most of all, I want to thank all of you for. for being here, for listening. These conversations couldn't be more important. Thanks again, everybody. I will talk to you again soon. Give us another bottle of that tequila. You can really go. The mic's here.

Oh, this is so fun. The Michelle Obama podcast is a Spotify original, presented and produced by Higher Ground Audio in collaboration with DustL Productions. From Higher Ground Audio, Dan Fehrman, Anna Holmes, and Mukta Mohan are executive producers. Jene Marable is our editorial assistant. Adam Sacks is our consulting producer.

From Dustlight Productions, Misha Yusef is the executive producer. Arwin Nix and Jonathan Shiflett are the producers. Additional production support from Mary Knopf. Jonathan Shiflett is also our engineer. Manika Wilhelm is the archival producer and transcriber. Rachel Garcia is the Dustlight editorial assistant. Daniel Eck, Don Ostroff, and Courtney Holt are executive producers for Spotify. Special thanks to Mackenzie Smith, Joe Paulson, Christina Shockey, Melissa Winter, China Clayton, Alex May,

Caroline Adler Morales, and Maron Helimaskol. And thanks to Clean Cut Studio, Search Party Music. Tyler Lechtenberg, Dylan Rupert, Carolyn Lipka, Young Creative Agency, and Diyara Nazarian. Our theme music is by Stevie Wonder, original music by Andy Claussen and Telefresco. The song you heard at the beginning of this show is Friends by East. Thanks for listening to the Michelle Obama podcast.