IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Trust Your Kids with Mara Brock Akil

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

On today’s episode, Girlfriends and Forever creator Mara Brock Akil joins Michelle and Craig to talk about her incredible career, and how her children have inspired her current projects. The group discusses navigating the teen and early adult years, giving their teenagers more freedom, and figuring out how to build and improve on your personal foundation. Plus, Mara spills on the possibility of a Girlfriends movie!Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Well, there are a lot of young black people that they get into college and they've never had a boyfriend or girlfriend. I don't think that's healthy. I totally agree with you. I don't think. And a lot of that comes from being in all white environments as black kid. Not to be felt like someone who likes you, even if it's for a week. Yes. There's no memory of a mutual desire and how to negotiate those feelings. There's no place for them to even practice those. See, now, I always thought that black boys had it easier. This is my ignorance because I grew up with daughters. This episode is brought to you by Ribian. You got on your island wear. I got my vineyard wear on. Well, howdy-duty. How you doing? I'm good. I'm good. We are in this beautiful barn. On Martha's Vineyard. Up Island in Chilmark. And it's just a beautiful, beautiful place to record. And would you do me the favor of explaining up island like you explained it to me because I was thinking up meant over but up actually means up.

This is the higher elevation of the island. So you have more rocky cliffs over the ocean. If there are beaches, they are rocky and sandy. Whereas down island where Edgar Town, Oak Bluffs are, it's flatter. It's more, you know, the elevation is closer to the ocean. So, you know, sort of the sandier beaches are there. So we are up island. Well, speaking of up island and all the rocky roads, this is the perfect place to test out the rivians that we were given by Rivians. This is the perfect terrain for Rivian owners. It is the perfect lifestyle. Yes. Because you have beaches, you've got the back roads.

You need to be able to lift it. that vehicle up, lower it down. And I have driven my Rivian here. The ones we were gifted. I'm so excited about giving a chance to drive. It's really nice, isn't it? It's really nice. It's really easy to drive. And when you're going over these bumpy roads, you really don't feel it in the car because it sits up so high. So I really love it. Well, we're excited today. Yeah, we've got a great guest, somebody that I have been watching from afar, hoping to get to spend some time with. So I feel like, you know, this is the fun thing about this podcast.

I get to meet people that I have admired from afar. I spend some time with them. And unlike, well, like you, I've admired her from afar, but just through her work. Yeah. And she is the mastermind behind some iconic shows. So let me get right to her. bio. Mara Brock Akeel is the television writer and producer credited with 400 episodes of television,

including one of my all-time favorites girlfriends that I hope we can dig into a little bit here. The game, Being Mary Jane, and in most recent fan favorite and critically acclaimed, and a new Robinson favorite. So our whole family watched this whole series together forever. So without further ado, Maro, Brock Akeel. Come on out. Mara. Welcome, time. I am so happy to you are here.

You are here. You are here. Yes, girl, yes. Oh, my goodness. Welcome. Welcome. You've been watching you from far. I don't want to be your friend forever.

I have. You know, first of all, you're beautiful. Oh, my goodness. Thank you. right back at you. And I'm just like, who is this badass, beautiful woman who is involved in everything and just sort of killing the game? So I have really been a fan. And we actually got to meet a couple of days ago because a good friend of our mutual friend, Tracy, brought you to Barack's birthday bash here.

He always, we celebrate his birthday and have a little barbecue. So I was just thrilled when you walked in the door. Oh, my goodness. It was so, it was, it was, it was quite a moment for me. I had to, you know, so much respect for you and your family. And to be that close, proximity and how loving, I was, you know, it was a beautiful time. And you're like, oh, you know, you guys are who you are. But what I love mostly is that you are a family first.

Yeah. And just regular day people, having a good time, having a good part because of doing a little electric slide. The babies dancing in the middle of the floor. But you do, you comment first. And there was a moment that I really just, I just thank God. I love being there. I love being there for what it represents. But then we take that breath.

You're like, oh, yeah, we're just here together, having a good time on the vineyard. Well, that's what the vineyard represents. Yeah. To us. And I know to you, you were a long time. Been coming for 14 years. For 14 years. And my first, well, technically 15 years, my, I talk about Ralph Farquhar all the time.

Yeah. But, you know, it's important to have. Talk for our listeners so people know who he is. So Ralph Farquhar is an amazing storyteller himself, known as a showrunner. But he has, I met him when he was my boss on Moesha. Sorry, back up on South Central. See, you've had so many shows. Exactly.

Exactly. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. He's had so many shows. I think his career started on Happy Days. And he's talking about this place called Martha's Vineyard. And like people descend upon the island. What? Almost like, we're like birds.

We're like, we migrate and over here or something. And the way he talked about it, just wanted to see it, touch it, feel it. And I came and I'll never forget this because music is, it guides my work, but it guides my life and my memory. and Jay Z's Reasonable Doubt had just dropped. Uh-huh. So you can remember by this, what drop? Yes. And it's like the summer playlist.

Oh, it's the summer. It was interesting, too, because it was in July. And it was a younger, it's a different island in July that it is in August. It definitely is. And it was younger people hanging out together, partying a lot. How were you on your first? How were you? I'll leave it there.

If we do the math, how? I was 20 and I was 26. So that was my first time. So then later when we came on the island, it was right after jumping the broom. And I just wanted to be here and learning the legacy, learning about the island more historically, not just from a party perspective. Yes. It was just, this is where we needed to be.

In fact, vacationing sometimes was just. tired to being the only black family sometimes in these beautiful places, but to come to this island and see each other and get the rest, restoration, the joy, the laughter, the food, the safety in numbers, but in, but also you can, you can chill out. But it's a place where kids and little black boys and black girls can they can find love and they can stand in groups and not be bothered. They can loiter like kids should be able to do and feel safe. And and parents don't have to worry. They can see themselves and others as well.

You know, can feel that freedom together, can have those memories of what your nervous system feels like when it feels safe. So you actually know the difference. And we'll talk more about this when we get into our favorite show. Oh, I love you guys say that. Truly, truly, forever we are talking about, but we're going to talk more about that.

And before we dig into the show, I want to know what was your relationship with your older brother like. Oh, my goodness. Shout out to my brother. I lost him a few years ago. Thank you. Thank you. We had a very passionate sibling relationship. We talked a lot.

We argued. And what's the age difference? He's three years older. He's three years older. You know, I want to say this too, because I really believe it. Our relationship is still thriving and growing. I feel his energy around me all the time. We have an angel number that lets me know that he's nearby.

And in a hundred times, I will ask him, yo, where are you? Because I need you right now. And one of the things that we often talked about, he really wanted to be, he was the only sort of, he was the only man in our family for a very long time and a family full of women. And he felt such a responsibility to being the man and making it and financially successful. And I think about him a lot in his, in his, you know, just compassion for what he was going through.

And he didn't need to put that pressure on himself. You know, I think about that sometimes. But now I experience him. I feel his C-O-O presence on me. I was like, come on, let's go. Help me build. Help me. And I hope I don't sound, you know, I'm not going to own that.

I know I don't sound like. I really believe in the spiritual connection still. He's not embodied anymore, but he is in spirit with me. But are we, he was my big brother, you know, even if we argued, you couldn't argue with me, though. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Sounds familiar. You couldn't argue with me.

You know? Back up, you know? It's like that's my, you know, that's my sister. It was funny because we went, there was, we had one overlap in school together. And he let me have, oh, I have another funny story. He let me have my space, you know, kind of vibes. But I always love when I passed him in the hallway. He, I always wonder, is he going to talk to me because he's a senior and I'm a freshman?

And he always, he always said, hello, how you doing, everything good? And he just kind of had this formality to him that I really loved. I'm good. And isn't there, you know, I never tell Craig this to my face. But when you have a big brother that you adore, there is a certain energy, you know. Like, I would just get excited knowing he was in the same space. Safe. Even though, safe, yeah.

Even though I was trying not to be the little sister because we were raised not to be up under each other. My mother and father wanted to make sure that he didn't feel like he had to protect me. Right. Because he, like your brother is a warrior. He was the one that took on just naturally a lot of stuff. And so my mom was like, your little sister is fine. Don't worry about her. So I tried to give him his space.

So he could have a little life too, not having to be. Not to feel like when I'm around, it's like, how is she doing? Is everything okay? But I did it anyway, you know? It's just just who I was. And she was just so cute. I didn't want anything to happen to her. I found like that's really interesting too because the birth order is beautifully.

If we believe in God's majesty and the dynamic nature of our lives, your being born, the Big Brother, is a part of the dynamic that is needed, taking that on. That when you came into the world, you were loved not by just two people, but by three people. You know what I'm saying? And I think that's a beautiful way to think about. about siblings. This is part of your role. And it funny, with our two boys, you know, I often also let Nassir know Yaseen is our oldest

and Nassir is our youngest. And Nassir is a, they're both, you're a great little brother and you're a great big brother in your dynamic. I always, and so I just feel like that's also unique in that part of that responsibility, you know. But to your point, not to overdo it, but that's, you said, that's just who you are. The sibling relationship is one of the most special relationships. And I tell them that, you know, we're going to be out of here. And you guys are going to, you guys are going to be left in it together.

So how are you going to move together? How are you going to support each other? These are the times in which those bonds need to, you know, to anchor in. And here's the other thing too. And I think about love, what really is love? What is it? And I feel like it's the witnessing of another through the good, the bad, the mundane, the in-between, and who gets the VIP court side, all the special VIP bracelets in your life.

And that's a privilege. You know what I'm saying? Think how much we want to be in the party. Well, you want to be in someone's life like that. Well, a sibling has it from all of your dreams and memories are packed into each other. And for someone to sort of, and to lose that bond over time,

it would be unfortunate. Boy, this has been a terrific trip to Martha's venue. Yeah, it's been so nice having you and young Aaron with us. We've had such a ball having you here. Yeah, it's been really nice. And look, we topped it off with a party at the end of the visit. Wasn't that nice? It was a good jam with a DJ. I heard you were doing a little electric slide. Yeah, the old man electric slide. So just from here.

Sort of more slide than electric. More slide than electric. Yeah. Yeah. But check this out. You know I'm an Airbnb guy now, right? Yes. You remember the photographer who was there? Uh-huh. Yeah. Got them on Airbnb. No way. You can... Wait, wait, what do you mean?

You... Ordered through... But he was a professional photographer. A professional photographer. You can order services through Airbnb. Oh, as part of this new Airbnb extra amenities. What do they call the program? Airbnb services.

Airbnb services. And you can order a chef. You can order all kinds of stuff. I was like, let's order a photographer. So we don't have to worry about taking pictures. he took all the pictures and we'll send them to us on a... You know, now that's a great idea because if I am so horrible at even thinking about taking pictures

and while you've got a great phone and everybody's good at that, it's so nice to have somebody that follows you around like we did in the White House. We had a White House photographer. Right, right. So it's sort of like Airbnb Services let you have your own White House photographer that can follow you around and just get all these great candid shots.

That is so cool. And it was very similar to being at a wedding where you don't even know he's there, but you're going to have this whole album of pictures. That's so great. This generation would love that. That is a phenomenal amenity. I can't wait to see the pictures. I'm just a little worried he might have caught me doing the non-electric slide. Well, if he's any good, he definitely caught that. So we want our listeners to definitely check out Airbnb services on the Airbnb. app or website. You'll love it. It sounds like you and your brother, like Craig and I, we weren't competing with each other.

That I know that I was his biggest cheerleader, still am. And I know I try to make, I've tried in my parenting of Malia and Sasha to make sure that they never felt like they were competing with each other. I think you've done a great job because I've been able to witness your children outside in the world and they feel like friends. They have become individuals, not even locked as, we're sisters holding

hands, moving down, but they feel like friends respecting each other. Well, and if you talk about the lives that they've lived in such a short time, you know, they are the only two people who really relate to the unique blend of crazy

that was their life growing up together. And I think that that's helped. But I've also tried to make sure that they appreciate their individuality. Yes. And that we see it. It's not like be like your big sister or look at your little sister. Like we, I made it a point not to talk about grades at the dinner table just because, you know, it's like, let's talk about school. Yeah. But when we talk about grades or scores, you know, I was always sensitive. What if the, what if the, what What if the other one's not doing great? And we are rewarding and cheering an A when the other one might be getting a C. And that's, you know, and then you set up, you know, some kind of measure. Measure. Measure unintentionally. I know Craig and I didn't have that. And some of that I think is because we were opposite gender. But I feel like that's something that, you know, a lot of parents, you know, They think that, you know, for the big one, be like your big.

Well, it's interesting you say that because I remember my brother was really good. And grades, we didn't talk about that, but I knew he was good. So there was this, I think, healthy competition around that. I, you know, I like, when he's talking about his age, I'm like, okay, well, look at mine. So I remember that feeling. But that's an interesting, intentional idea that you're saying that you didn't bring to the table. I want to mention one that you did that you offered to us as a nation, and I believe probably maybe the world, is the rose and the thorn. Yeah.

We used that a lot. We did use that a lot. And one of the things, how it's morphed for me is I'll ask, Nassir now, who's still at the journal table. You've seen as in college. He's at NYU. But I'll ask, when did you laugh today? And what did you laugh about? And that has gotten a lot of results. That's a good question. Yeah, it was a good one. And then I kind of get some insight into his friends and what they're laughing about, what they're talking about. I think storytelling is, even if it's like little snippets, those are the things that I find that I like most at the dinner table that I think allows for a relationship to blossom in real time, even amongst, you know, we don't just caught up and just we just eat together, right?

That's right. What are we talking about while we're together? A lot of debate is happening at the, you know, I think even for young men, for them to be able to express their opinion clearly, I mean, children in general, but for us, like express themselves, but then also be able to witness your children and how they are able to get their opinion across and be able to sort of watch them before they launch out into the world. Yes, yes. And I will share with you what our family always did. It was really interesting. when we had family gatherings, it was never kids in the other room. Right? Our family always allowed us to be in the room. Yes. And hear the adult conversations. Yes. And when you were ready, you could chime in.

Yeah. Now, it couldn't be any mess and it had to be wealth bought out and serious, or you would be pummeled with ridicule, but in a way that would keep you wanting to come back. Yes. And I always thought that helped my ability to navigate communication in the world. Yes. Was exactly what you said. I had a safe place to practice.

It's like a sport. It's like a sport. I got to practice in the comfort of our own home. And then when we both were old enough to sort of give back as, you know, give as good as we got. That's when she passed me up. Because she got really good. at arguing and debate. I think one of the things you point out, Craig, is the practice.

And as parents, as parents raising kids, kids of color, I think we underestimate the importance of setting our kids up for practicing their voice and their emotions. I think sometimes I have doubled down. I'm like, okay, well, how do that make you feel? Mom, it's like, I don't feel anything right now. Yeah, I feel annoyed. Yeah, yeah, I feel annoyed. Yeah, yeah, I feel annoyed.

Great. Boy, boys are different people. They'll tell you how they feel when they're 30. They will. They will. Eventually. Yeah, but there's still the practice of, I think you tap into that sooner because you were also encouraged just to talk. Yeah, I'm being a little facetious there.

I'm making the point that girls just are more advanced. We have one girl and three boys. So she's ahead of all. She was ahead of all of them emotionally when she was eight. See, I, okay, I want to get into this. I actually think there's a lot of emotional intelligence in boys. Yes, there is. But they hold it in their bodies.

I'm just sort of witnessing it. And when they're ready, actually... When you say you're witnessing it, what are you seeing? Well, boys hold a lot in. And I know I think that's a societal idea as well, put upon boys that I don't think that we allow for places for them to be. remote, but I think it is expressed in their physical movement. And so in that, I find the days that sort of my sons have exerted themselves in the things that they want to do, the car ride or the tuck-in at bed is where there's a lot of conversation.

The best discussions I've had with the three boys have been rear-view-mirror discussions. when they're in the back seat. And I can look to just see what they're doing, but I'm not looking directly at them. And it made me think about forever. Because we watched forever with our two younger boys. Like our oldest son is 33. Okay.

He's got his own Netflix account. Finally has his own Netflix account. I don't think our daughter does yet. She's 29, but he's got his own. But we watched it. I feel we need those numbers. And now that when I knew you were coming on, because when I'm watching this whole thing, and I didn't know your background then. Now when we were doing the research for this, you had two sons.

I wanted to know, how did they influence that whole storytelling? And I'm asking for myself, but I'm asking for my kids because after you talk, I'll share with you their reaction. I really want to know. Yes. Yes. Well, a lot of my storytelling ethos is I tell the truth through fiction. Okay. And so a lot of times my heart locks in on something or I'm locked in on something.

In real time, as a mother, I'm locked in on my boys. At a time where I was concerned about just their right of passage, their coming of age, what are they going to get, miss, and you're trying to fill in the gaps, right? I had a place to pour all these feelings I was having about my parenting, about my sons, what I'm witnessing into this coming of age story about first, which is one of the biggest things I was concerned about. Yes, they're getting a great education in the private white institutions, but what, at what cost? And the social things were really starting to creep up.

And I was concerned that he was not my eldest son who, is pioneering the family in a lot of ways. I didn't feel as though he was getting some of the social experiences. I think children need while they're in the home, while they're in this stage of life. What was he missing and why? Well, you know, I think he deserved to be felt crushed on. And mutually felt.

I felt like there was a lot of his classmates who, you know, you get to, you do the catch-ups with the moms, right? Oh, they're on their third girlfriend. I'm like, oh, wow, I haven't had that, I haven't had that experience. Well, there are a lot of young black people that they get into college and they don't, they've never had a boyfriend or girlfriend. I don't think that's healthy. I totally agree with you. And a lot of that comes from being in all-white environments as black kid. Not to be felt like someone who likes you, even if it's for a week. Yes. There's no memory of. of a mutual desire and how to negotiate those feelings, those conversations, those opportunities

maybe to come to mom or dad for advice or aunt and uncle or village. There's no place for them to even practice those. See, I always thought that black boys had it easier. This is my ignorance because I grew up with daughters. You know, I'm not in every household, but when I look at it from, I think there's a time in which black boys, they're really. really cute from kindergarten to fourth grade. And actually, Dr. Jawanza Kifu has a book on about the conspiracy to destroy black boys. And it's typically society starts to pull away from them. Imagine being so cute.

And then suddenly so threatening. So then you start to see the day and we're trying to give them language around this. and you're watching this. So there can be a separation where now you are a threat. And as your body gets bigger, your physical self gets bigger, all the things that we're still trying to work on in our country, whether it's conscious or unconscious, it is starting to form about who's going to kiss those ideas.

If you're crushing on someone, another step is, is a kiss, and we understand those ideas that are still embedded in our country. And I don't think, and again, I'm not saying that people are leading with this. But I am saying that he's a, he's handsome, he's dynamic, he's an athlete. I've seen pictures of your sons. They are gorgeous. Yeah, it's like, where are the flood? Where are the flood? And again, you, when you sort of do the math, is, is it, is it because he's the only black boy in the class. And then as a parent, I'll be honest, you know, my guilt sort of comes up about it. Um, Celine and I talk about it all the time. And we, we check in and all the time. So what, so, so, and goes, go back to the vineyard. Hey, we got, we need to get to

the vineyard just so he can see. Maybe, maybe one little flirtation on Circuit Avenue might help us get through the rest of the year. Just hold on to that. Just hold on. Just hold on. We go. get two weeks, three weeks out of this. But Mar, you make a good point about, you know, and Craig, I'd love to hear how you think about this as being one of those cute little boys that grew into maybe a threatening young man. Overnight. Overnight. When we know that overnight, they don't change internally. Oh, my God, they're wobbly. They become, I call them baby giraffes. They really, oh my God, that's a great term. And they're up and down. And I call them baby on a stick, You know, because it's like the same little baby face on top of this big huge man body.

Six feet plus. And just the body grew, but they're still the same cute little boy in themselves, but they're walking out. And then I'm going to add before it, they add the mask of what they think black masculinity is. So even like when you're trying to take a picture, everybody's happy and then everybody mean mug it in the shot, you're like, guys, guys, guys, guys, we're like, what are we doing? We smile. Yes. What is this? And making room for that because they're trying to protect themselves.

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View important disclosures at acorns.com slash IMO. Well, I will say for me, you're growing up, if you, I know you remember this, but you wouldn't know this, I went to an all boys high school. Oh, how was that? And it was, talk about storytelling. I could tell a bunch of stories about that. But it took the pressure off of having to perform every day in order to attract girls. That's what, in looking back, at the time, I didn't realize this. Right. At the time, I was like, geez, this is a lot of dudes around here.

And it was a Catholic school, so it was very rigid. So any social interactions were intentionally put upon us with dances with the girls school. Right, right, right, right. So inevitably, there was enough people there where you could actually go ask someone. to dance if you wanted to ask a black girl to dance you could if you wanted to ask a white girl to dance it was like the proportions were about the same and so I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything but did you feel like a threat as you grew could you feel society change it's reaction to you did not feel that and I don't know when I started to I didn't really feel like I was a

until I had gone away to college and then come back. Because I was a little bit more able to perceive slights toward me where I don't think I could in high school. You were just oblivious, you think. I was either oblivious or I didn't run into it because I was an athlete. To your point about how. Well, yeah, there is a privilege that comes with an athlete. An athlete and not even a good athlete. All you have to be is on the team and people treated you differently.

And my Catholic school was mostly white. So there were operative. And there was the odd slight, you know, the one teacher who thought, okay, you shouldn't apply to Princeton because you won't get in. That kind of thing. But we were used to that. It seems like there's a lot of those in the counseling department. We were used to that.

But when I really think back on feeling like I didn't feel like I was a threat until I started driving around. The first time I felt like I was a threat when I got pulled over just for driving a car. Yeah, driving while black. But I was prepared for that, right? I was prepared for it. It doesn't make it right, but I was prepared for it. But I, so, and now when I think about my sons, And I think about, I'm listening to you talk to your sons and we're watching forever.

And, you know, this was when they were 14 and 12. Now they're 15 and 13. So they were young. And thanks to Malia, because we were no R-rated stuff until you get to 16. You need a big cousin. You need a big cousin. You need to put the pressure. She ripped that.

She ripped that band-aid off. And Kelly and I were like, ooh, so we watched it. And there were some, as you know, there was some scenes. And we were like. we're shaking more than the boys were. But it forces communication. It forces good discussion about these things. Yes.

And we should. And I think that's what I would hope that forever can do. So when I hear about families watching it together, I feel like it's just that opportunity not only to talk about sexual health, but talk about their emotional health to themselves, to their friend group, and to their significant other and to their household. Yeah. And ultimately to their future.

Because that's what we're really trying to protect is that, yes, you should go through this rite of passage. But how do you get through it in a healthy way of sound mind and body? Yeah. And that's the goal, right? That's what it did for us. And it's going to, and it is uncomfortable to think about this for any child, but it's going to happen eventually. And I think the privilege and the joy

is it to happen while they're under our roof. That we can witness them. I so agree. And not that we want our children to fall, but if they're going to fall, let them fall. And come home. I say that all the time. Right there so they can see themselves.

Well, Marr, this is what you're saying about black kids. You want them to have enough social experience. And I'm talking to my brother too, you know, because there's a balance of you worry about them being out and being in the wrong house. And the parents aren't this and they aren't that. You know, but that's coming, you know. They're going to, you know. In high school, sophomore, two, three years, it's going to happen. When we're having our discussions during and after the show, I ask the boy, so what is the thing that comes to your mind when you're,

watching this. Oh. And you know what they said? We compare your parenting to their parenting. Wow. Isn't that something? So who are you? Well, of course, I'm the dad.

That's why I want. But I'm not as cool as good. You guys cool. I'm not that. I'm not that cool. But they were really focused in on comparing the show's parenting style to our parenting style. Wow.

And in the middle, we'd be watching it and it's like, oh, yeah. But they'd be like, mom would never do that. Or, oh, that's exactly what mom would say. Or, Dad, you'd never let us do this. But that's why I love the show because it checks, it helps to check parents. Because we are so afraid. We are so afraid. So many parents.

out of deep love. It's not, it's, it's deep love. You don't want, you don't want your baby. I mean, the thought, that's why we're as happy is our least happy child. That's saying every parent knows it, every parent feels it, you know, but sometimes we don't realize that we parent out of our fears. Of course. We parent out of our desire not to feel the hurt and we couch it in terms of I'm doing it for them. Yes. It, I mean, there was a whole lot of stuff. going on in the Robinson household. So it was really cathartic for our family. That's what I'm hearing, that there's a big sigh, a big deep breath, another regroup. Okay, everybody, let's figure this out on all sides. And they also need to see our flaws. It is so, it is so helpful for them.

I mean, I think one of the biggest reliefs was when, by the, yeah, I thought my parents were perfect because, you know, and not perfect in some ridiculous way. I just, you know, I couldn't see their flaws. But there comes a point, you know, and I was in college and I'd gone off and studied sociology and psychology. And then I could bring all those theories back and, you know, pick apart my parents. Yes. Right. But that, that was sort of a necessary thing to realize. oh, my father's relationship to his MS is not healthy. You know, the notion that we would applaud the fact that our father just cut up and he went to work

and he never sacrificed for anybody and he never took a day off. This is a man who had MS. Oh, my God. And as I got older, I was like, why aren't we looking at therapies? Right. Why isn't he going to the doctor more? Why are we bragging about the fact that he never stops? Never stops.

When MS is a disease that is so debilitating that there's sometimes he needs to stop, what is it about him? What is it about my mother? You know, where we've created this heroic, you know, paradigm that is not healthy at all. That's the beauty of progress, right? Sometimes it takes, you don't like sometimes how long. it can take because of the different, you know, constraints on us. But I think, you know, as a storyteller, sometimes I have to keep going back to the origin of things and you realize, oh, that's why he didn't stop. He didn't stop because stopping meant something different to us a few generations ago.

You two may not be here if other generations didn't stop. But at some point— There's no food on the table. There's no—but at some point, to your point, where are we at the tipping point? where it's going to kill us in other ways if we don't think about how we take care of ourselves and as we fight continuously for our humanity. And it comes with sometimes the ability to rest and reflect, to look at the patterns, to look at, to examine. I'm going to apply this knowledge I have

at some of the best institutions we have in our country, and I'm going to take it back to my family. That's what I would love that we can do. And that excites me in a lot of ways, even though there's a lot of work still to be done. Oh, for sure. Sometimes you just need a little boost, nothing wild, just something to help you stay steady through the day. Between shuttling the kids to sports, recording the podcast, and even traveling out here to D.C. for recordings, I like having something easy to keep my energy up. That's why I go with Well With All energy.

It keeps me feeling good and energized while I'm on the go. Wow, that's good. It's lightly sparkling, has natural caffeine from tea with only 45 calories, made with real fruit and vegetable juices, no artificial colors, no artificial flavors, just good stuff for some good energy. And you know what I really like? Well Withal is black-owned. and they give 20% of their profits to support black, brown, and underserved communities.

That means a lot to me. Three great flavors, super easy to grab on Amazon, and if you use the code IMOPod 10 on Amazon, you'll get 10% off. I really want you to talk a bit about your staying power in this industry. You know, you were one of the, you were one of the, youngest showrunners, black showrunners. Yes. I mean, you have put out hit after hit after hit.

And in a business where it doesn't happen, you got a season two on Netflix. My love for it. Accepting that I, accepting my purpose in my life, I think is my staying in power. And actually, as much as I want to make hit after hit after hit, I really enjoy making. I love the stories of us. I just see so many opportunities that were missing at the time that I came in the industry. It felt like, guys, there's so many stories. I did have to develop how do I sell those, which can be very challenging at times.

Can you talk more about that? It's interesting, honestly, it's akin to how black people have succeeded in America throughout. is that oftentimes America will ask of us to come in when things are in chaos are in turmoil. Oh, I feel that. You know a little something about that? Think about that. Think about that moment when we don't know what to do, then now maybe there could be a first black president. So when.

girlfriends came about. UPN, the network was in trouble. Nobody would touch that network. And I took all the legacy. I treated it as of value and found other people who also saw this opportunity as valuable and led from that place. So typically, if you go back in the pattern of my career, I have made leaps when the industry was. changing in a way that felt like, you know, a little bit of the sky is falling kind of vibes. So that was one way. And the third part that's very important to me is job creation. I know that if I'm able to take this idea that's floating out here in my heart and I can land it on the page and it becomes a lighthouse for other talent to come and join me, I also know that

feeding families. And that, my staying power is not just about my own need to tell stories. And you're doing this in real time, not just from your programs, but you are mentoring the next generation of creatives. Can you talk a bit about that? Oh, thank you for. Oh, thank you. It's a, you know, I have produced over 400 episodes of television. And with that, it has inspired a lot of young people who typically are, their families are saying, please go to be a doctor, go be a banker, go be a lawyer. Again, because it feels safe for us as parents, but we have inspired them to want to be storytellers, which I personally believe is the most valuable asset we as humans have is our story. The challenge is that the industry changed. The industry changes.

And it looked like a gold rush yesterday. It doesn't feel like that today. But there's a long line of people who want to tell. We're now inspired to tell their story. And I can't pretend I don't see it. And so the way I thought is that I would have a writer's colony. And I built a resident. It's been four years.

It's a place to write. It's a place to belong and a place to find your voice. What we don't need, we don't need another Mara. We need what it. There's something in you that you and God want to get out as a sort of like a co-creation idea. You need to get that out. But where are you going to get your foot hold? And even signal to family who's helping to typically all artists, they're supported by someone.

And typically it's the family. So the first venture capitalists are family. You know, family and friends, family and friends round, right? That's right. And so the signal to even the writer themselves and the family that's supporting them, what could be created so that it feels like they can actually get into this institute, into this industry and thrive. And the reason why you do need a community of peers,

mama and daddy and auntie and grandma and uncle, they're going to love your script. But you need. I know, right. Object, you need objectivity. You need baby. I mean, first of all, people are just blown away that you can write 100 pages of everything. And I think the communication around the expectations from family, if you just sort of meet it with real conversations, hey, this is what I'm doing.

This is what I understand the industry is. This is my strategy. Literally, I would math my life so that I protected the ability for me to write. Well, this might be a good time to... Whoa, look who's... Oh, I'm sorry. No, go ahead. No, no, do that. No, go ahead.

For a listener question. Yes, it's perfect. It kind of ties into a lot of what we're talking about. And it's our, it's IMO's attempt to be sort of communal, you know. So we get a question from our listeners. Okay. And this question is from Julia, who happens to be from Los Angeles. Okay.

Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Julia. I'm the daughter of immigrants, went to Princeton and on scholarship, where I felt like an outsider, and then took a job in finance, which I hated. before pivoting to teaching, which I still do now. I know both of you went to Princeton and then took jobs in lucrative fields like law and finance before pivoting to less lucrative but more fulfilling careers.

People of color and immigrant kids often feel extraordinary pressure to go to the best schools and get the best highest paid jobs because of the sacrifices and suffering of their parents, even if these schools and jobs are not the best fit. My parents, for example, worked at a fast food restaurant that burned during the LA uprising. I'm now the parent of teenagers, and I wholeheartedly believe they do not need to go to an Ivy League school or have a highly paid job in medicine law or finance in order to be happy, quote, successful human beings. But I also know I have so much more privilege than my parents ever did and that my kids don't need these fancy degrees and jobs in the way I felt I did.

What advice do you have for these kids and also for their parents? Oh, my goodness. This is the perfect question, and we started talking about this. So I didn't want to get too far into it. Too far because it kind of just led it. Right. I would think first is acknowledge that the awareness is beautiful. She already knows, Julia already knows that is different.

I think, and I think, I know I go to therapy a lot, but she might need to sort of work on that guilt. that meaning they're still embedded in the question am I doing something did I do something right and by nature of her the privilege for her to pivot her parents applaud them that they got a child to Princeton

through that experience into a career and have the presence of mind that this is not for me. That is the progress. That is the victory. That is it. And if there can be made peace,

I don't know of the diet, what that, not speaking, not knowing the full dynamic. But I hear a little bit, and maybe I, of guilt, perhaps. And by letting that go, will free up parents who have journeyed through something

themselves to then not bring that guilt. into the parenting of the next generation. So the awareness is a beautiful step and maybe that next step would be there. But it sounds like Julia's doing a great job of awareness and knowing that she needs to parent different. I think communication, which is hard sometimes and it's interesting.

We talked about that from the beginning that what we as parents are pouring into our kids to allow them, I think you were talking about even at the tape, when you were, what can you offer back to the community when you were ready to your debate skills and your communication stills, kids being back at that dinner table, having the support to add new ideas to the family, to grow the family. Our children have a lot of good ideas. And likely in Julia,

Princeton, her, even though she felt like an outsider, she probably was a good witness to a lot of good information that she could bring back to her family, to herself, and thus to her family, her growing family. But the kids do have things to offer. And I think we need to make room for them. They know themselves, especially when they are raised, whatever the dynamic of the family, and they can help lead that new conversation. I'll tell you one, when I first was, you know, in Northwestern, I'm at, I'm in L.A. making. the little bit of money that I was making. But my grandmother kept sending me articles

about teaching in L-A-U-S-D because my family had L-A-U-SD on lock. That's the Los Angeles United School District. And at first it broke my heart. And I'm like, do they understand what I'm trying to do? What I'm trying to do? I'm out here trying to do the thing. And then I thought, no, they don't.

And not only do they not understand it, Mara, you haven't fully left them know while you're still trying to figure it out. But this has hit me like a ton of bricks. They can't help you. There's no phone call they can make to say, look out for my baby. Right. Can they get an interview? Can they just, can somebody read the script?

There's nobody to call. So babies out in the desert. Yes. There's no community we can put around, no extra eyes on them. And then for me, what's my accountability? a child to help relieve some of that burden because that, and then the check-in, this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm at, or even, I gave myself two years. At the end of those two years, I sat down with Gina Prince Pithewood. Shout out to my friend, you know, woman King, you know,

Old Guard, all those things. But we were, we were, this is after South Central, there was an unemployment phase before Moisha in my gap. And I said, I, and so I tasted it, right? I tasted it and I didn't feel like I was going to be able to keep going. And I thought, well, teach for America. I can maybe go to, I wasn't going to teach. I was like, you know what, if I'm going to teach, I'm going to teach out in another country. At least I'll get some travel out of this. And she said, stay an extra month. I later found out, she only said that because she didn't know what else to say. And that's when Ralph Farquhar called me and said, hey, Mara, I got this show called. Moisha.

And so you, the timing of life, too, and the community. I was also able in that communication, Ralph only knew that because I had gone to his office when I had $50 in my pocket. And I was trying to be his assistant just to stay in. And he looked, he goes, Mara, you're not an assistant, you're a writer. Great compliment. Does not help my math problem. I got to eat.

I got to eat. So I feel communicating also what your needs are in your community, being vulnerable enough to say, I have $50 in my pocket. I don't know what else to do and somebody else offering something, whether it's not just encouragement or a meal or something to keep us going that matters who's around us. That's so perfect. then I'm just going to try and sum it all up. I do. I do. One other thing that I want to say is,

just like you learned with your son, that the next generation has a vision and a voice, I think it's incumbent upon our generation of parents to realize that we don't know their future. We don't. So we can't always have a strong opinion because the world will be very different for them for our kids today, especially for your kids who are younger, and they're living in it.

Yes. They're the ones living through it. They're the ones who are out there in school, surveying the land, understanding whatever industries they're in. And we're bystanders. Yeah. So there's got to be some, I want to reemphasize the trust in the fact that you give your kids tools.

Yeah. You give them the best education that you can. can afford, which is not always a guarantee to anything, but like you said, you give them love, you give them, you know, unwavering support, you know, not without criticism. And then at some point, you got to let them try out this new thing. And I think in parenting too, sometimes, if we get out of our own way, we can see them. And in seeing them, we can help. And in seeing them, And we can help them while they're in our daily care. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not going to add anything other than sort of summing it up because I love your math problem example. But I think what we don't do is we have our own math equation and we impose it on our kids rather than teaching them how to create their own math problem. Right. So when we look at our kids, we see this gigantic algebra problem. Yes. And they've got a arithmetic problem. And that's all they need to survive is make their arithmetic work.

We're looking at it as if they're in our orbit. So I would say to Julia, take into consideration this math problem and your math problem isn't their math problem. No. Let them figure out what their math problem is. And then to your point, both of you all's points, help them with their math problem. Yes. And then the other thing that was big there for Julia is don't impose your fears on your kids.

And we all do that. Yes. Oh, my gosh. That's why you need the good girlfriends and get it out in your community. Don't take it home. That's right. Have it in the chair banks or the girlfriends thing. You just have it.

Talk about it. And then keep your mouth shut and wait for the kids to need help, then help them. Yeah. Don't try and help them before. So, it's a lot. It's a lot. But, you know, the work that you do, Mara, you know, just to bring these stories to life and with humor, with truth, it really helps get the conversation going in so many ways.

And that's why forever is such a success along with everything else you're doing. Thank you. I just want to know what what's what's going on with girlfriends I love it

that you asked to I love it I want to say Are we going to get through this without asking about girlfriends

I love this I wanted to be William when I was younger You sort of are You're kind of I named I named after my brother

That's my brother's name I named him after my brother That was my dude back in the day And I was like Man You know I put him there

Because back in the day we were talking about we need to find a good black man and then some of my criticism of us myself included we were overlooking a lot of good brother and William spoke up for it well it was like we I'm here I'm sitting around all y'all complaining here I'm standing right here and you're looking over because you think you got to have little edge little bad boy a little this like that okay I'm okay so okay great but girlfriends thank you for bringing you know you know this is our 25th anniversary we know 25th anniversary. It is not, I keep my heart open. Actually, Tracy, Persia, Jill, Golden,

and Reggie, we've all, we desire to do it. But I as, but what it's important to me is that we be able to tell the story with the proper resources. There's a, there's a way we tell stories in our business. And it is time that we don't have to scratch and survive to tell this story. We have given 172 episodes, eight years, eight seasons of a lot of love and value. This story is four generations deep now. The 16-year-olds think I'm a rock star. I'm like, oh my God, I love it. But it's been global. So this is a ripe, valuable story. And so my conversation with God is, I'm here. I'm ready to go. But it needs to be lined up with the right. financial resources and support that it's going to treat it as a global success.

And because- And we're talking about girlfriends, the movie. I only want to do a movie. To be honest with you, I think that, you know, I have a fresh pen for the girlfriends. Like, I think why girlfriends was so successful. I was living that life. I was 29 as Joan was 29. And those, and those, I was in the,

issues of the day. I think that's kind of like my journalism aspect, my truth through fiction, because I was living it, or at least in proximity with my friends, I was able to understand what we were going through in real time. And I would love a fresh pen for a new girlfriends of tomorrow in a series, but for girlfriends, the movie, I feel the audience deserves the ending. Those characters deserve an ending. The characters deserve, I agree. I'm with you. And I'm with you. I'm with you. So I, yeah. So, make the check. Somebody got a check. Yeah. Make the checks right. And I love that you say that. Make the check right. Make the check right. Don't come nickel and dime. Yes. This is worthy. It has an audience. You have an audience. It is not a favor.

It is not a favor. It is real beautiful business. And I think, And I'm excited for the day. I know it's coming. I'm going to let it show up. Oh, my God, I've got to cry. Oh, my God. Sorry. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

But let it show up. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. So I'm now curious. Yeah. How it's going to show up. Oh, my God. You guys, I'm having a hot flash.

Oh, okay. All right. That's a way to end the episode right there. I know. Okay, okay. Wow. I mean, look, can you see it? Yes, I feel them.

Oh, my God. Okay. It's coming. And I'm coming. And I think there's some prophecy here in this barn. Yes. I think maybe we're generating. I'm looking around at my team.

Maybe my brother's here. I told you. He's here. He's here. Yeah. We just, oh, my God. It's here. It's like these are some signs.

Yeah. Well, we are excited. I personally am excited. This has been amazing. This is amazing for me. It's been as amazing, if not more amazing than I thought, I don't know about you. I am just sitting. Now I'm starting to get goosebumps.

No, this has been a real treat. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for everything you're doing because it is uplifting a whole lot of folks you don't even know it. Thank you, Maura. Thank you so much.

Thank you.