IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - You Need to Learn to Say No (Even to an Inauguration) with Taraji P. Henson

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

Actress, businesswoman, and mental health advocate Taraji P. Henson joins to talk about setting boundaries, why Michelle didn't attend the inauguration, post-White House therapy, and the glories of the Real Housewives franchise. Plus Craig gets a birthday surprise!Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What happened that eight years that we were in the White House? What did that do to me? Yes. Internally, my soul, we made it through. We got out alive. I hope we made the country proud. My girls, thank God, are whole. But what happened to me?

Right. Right. This episode is brought to you by Pinesol and TheraFlu. Craig Malcolm Robinson. Michelle Levon, Robinson. Not Robinson. Obama. Obama.

What, what, what, 30 years? How's it going? It's going well. How are you doing? Doing, doing well. Yeah. Yeah, happy to be here with you. We've got a great show coming up.

I'm so excited. But we are here in L.A. and you doing your thing? I'm doing my thing. I'm staying in an Airbnb again. And I tell you, every time I stay in one, it makes me want to stay in one wherever I go. You know, we're going, we're, the boys have a tournament coming up in a month or so. And rather than staying in a hotel, we're going to get an Airbnb so we can do all of our own cooking and washing of dirty uniforms. Yeah, yeah.

So I'm really excited. Yeah, you're just becoming an Airbnb official. I am. I am. Quite impressed. I absolutely have enjoyed my time because, you know, I was always Mr. Hotel points and. all that stuff. You seem younger than you are.

That makes you more up to date than, you know, your age portends. You're living like a young person out there. I know, I know. But Airbnb is for everyone of all ages, and you were living proof of that. I am. I am. Well, how excited are we? Very, very excited.

Well, folks, I'm going to get right to our guest because we want to bring her out because this is one of those. and I am a huge fan and I've got goosebumps. Let me just say my brother has been giddy, little silly giddy all day and he even wore a whole soup for this one because he's usually in jeans. It's like there's usually,

we don't know what's going on down there, but your top matches your pants today. That means we got somebody special here with us. See what happens when you try and clean yourself up. Your sister takes full advantage. But we are guest today. is none other than Taraji P. Henson. My girl.

And she is an Academy Award nominated actor, producer, and number one New York Times bestselling author, mental health advocate, and entrepreneur. Yeah, yeah. Owning our own stuff. Yeah, she's starring in Tyler Perry's Straw on Netflix, which I watched the trailer. And I was crying on the trailer.

I know. Taraji, she'll do that to you. She does it to you. She does it to you. Yeah, I can't wait for that to come out. I know, I know. She is also the founder of the Boris L. Henson Foundation named after her father, which works to enhance access to mental health services within black communities.

She has also launched TPH by Taraji, a line of spa-inspired products, and is the strategic advisor for seven daughters, moscato. Mosquito. I got me a bottle. I had two bottles. I may let you try one. Let me try one. I would love that. If you act right. But without any further ado, Taraji, please come out and join us. Thank you so much. Are you kidding me?

Thank you. Oh, my goodness. It took a while to do mine, so. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, looking good. Looking good. Now, the last time we saw one another. was at the final White House party in the last, the last night. It was the last night. It was, was it the very last night? It was one of the last parties, I can't remember.

So I think it was. Yeah, yeah. I think it was, but I just never, I just never forget I was leaving. And I thought it was pretty late. It was. And I'm leaving, because I'm tired, my feet hurt. I have on socks walking to the car. saying that. Because I was like, girl, my being hurt. You had to talk walking to the car?

Yes, because my feet, I danced out of my shoes. And Tom Hanks was walking across the floor. He's still partying. I would never forget that. Well, we are thrilled, beyond thrilled to have you here. Let me just fan girl a little bit because I didn't get to do that at the party when I saw you, but we are huge fans. Thank you. And you, oh, man, you just bring every part of you to the work that you do. And I will never forget my reaction. And I know a lot of actors like you who do so many things don't want to get pigeonholed into one role.

But let me just say, cookie on empire. I mean, I got on the phone to people when you showed up on screen because I was like, This is a real character. Yeah. I mean, this is like, like I felt all of who Cookie was. And I called people on the phone. I was like, you have got to watch Empire. This is a different kind of a series that's coming on.

And it was because of your performance. Thank you. And, you know, and then to see the trailer of Straw, which is, you know, the story of black women at the edge of everything. the trailer alone, as Craig said, it brings you to tears. I guess I just want to know where does all that come from in that little bitty body of yours.

Well, I am trained. I went to Howard University of their stats. But, you know, as an actor, sometimes, you know, sharing a bit of, you know, the character's joy or pain, mine might bleed in a little bit. And I've been through some things in, You know, it wasn't easy growing up, you know, in the hood or whatever.

But, you know, I made it out. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, life will throw curveballs at you. And it's not always, you know, I know people look at celebrities and they're like, oh, you got it made because you're rich. But like the great guru, Biggie Small says, more money, more problems. Oh, yeah. You know, you think your problems go away because you finally made it or whatever.

And it's like, no. you get more problems, more expensive problems. But again, you know, the training and just being true to the character, and I think as actors, what we do is very spiritual. Yeah. Because we use our bodies as vessels to tell a character's truth. And so I can't judge that character. Right.

A lot of times I do, like, I judge Cookie at first. I was like, oh, my God, she's a whole thing. I did. It was hard not to. but the job of the actor is to show the why. And when you show the why, that's when you gain empathy. Yes. Because there's always a why.

Well, I, you know, I'm a trained athlete, so I'm different. But when you said that, you know, I'm trained, you know, I never think of that with non-athletes. Right. And that is, it's a real skill. It is. But I'm just sitting here getting nervous because every time I watch you on the screen, I feel something emotionally. And I just want to thank you for that because it is a, I mean, just, I'm thinking about, you know, Benjamin Button. I'm thinking about Proud Mary.

I mean, Proud Mary, you know, I still have a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old. Oh, wow. So that hit me. You know, I will let my kids watch R-rated movies if you're in them. I want to know some of the why to R-R-R-R-R-R-R-Jee, the real woman. You know, because you are doing a little bit of everything now. You know, you are not just acting and winning awards, but you're building an empire of your own.

Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? because you just had, you know, a major win personally on the business side. Yes. Gaining more control over your own stuff. Can you talk a bit about your company? Yes. Well, T.P.H., I don't know if a lot of people may or may not know this about me,

but I didn't get accepted into Duke E.leton School of Fine Arts in Washington, D.C. And the next thing, my next passion was cosmetology. I love doing hair and nails and makeup. But I miss. you had to enroll in the ninth grade. I missed it by a year, and I just think it was God. Yeah. You know, I wasn't supposed to go down that path.

But that's always been a passion of mine. That's how I fed myself in college, you know, because I didn't have money. And so I would do $20 wet sets because I had a hooded dryer out of my dorm room. And you went to Howard. And I went to Howard. But my first I started at North Carolina A&T because I really didn't think I could add. That's right. And then my father let me fall flat on my face because math is not.

I'm not mathematically wired at all. Me either, girl. Me either. I'm an artist. I am an artist to the bone. And so when I failed pre-calc, my dad was like, that's what you get. Now you get back up here and go to Howard and you enroll and you get back into acting. And that's how I.

Oh, so you were running from acting. Oh. Wow. Wow. Wow. I thought you were saying your dad. No. He won't.

No. No. No. Oh, he knew that I was a performer. He was telling me when I was little that I would win an Oscar, you're going to be one of the greatest actors alive. And because I'd been hearing that so much from him when I did not get accepted into Duke Allington,

I couldn't, I didn't know how to take that, you know. Take that failure on the chin and keep moving. I just did it at 13 or what was that, 12? Yeah, yeah. You believe that. You go, oh, that must mean I can't act, you know. Well, and having raised my. children in Washington. We've done a lot of work with the Duke Ellington School. And to put it in

perspective, it's like the Whitney Young, the magnet school that I went to, you know, well-funded school, you know, that just pushes out a lot of amazing artists all over the place. So I can imagine you grew up with that being your, you know. My North Star. So I just thought that, I just thought I didn't have the talent. And so imagine me going back to Howard. I felt out of sorts. And then finally, when I got back into the groove and I found my footing, everybody was like, well, you know, you went to Duke Allington.

And I was like, no, I didn't. They didn't accept me. Well, that is, you know, a beautiful thing to have a black daddy, you know, believe in his baby so much in a very challenging and non-traditional career. Yeah. You know, what a blessing to have. That man being that wing, wind beneath your wings. Yeah, it was because, you know, in the day of you should be a doctor or you need to be a lawyer, he really saw my gift.

So, but like I said, I was doing $20 wet sets. So hair and cosmetology has always been in me. And I remember when I first got to Hollywood and I started working and I couldn't afford weaves when I was in college. So when I got to Hollywood, I heard about, you know, women, I lost my edges and I didn't want to lose my edges. And I started working. See, we have that issue too, Craig. You see what she did? I'm sorry.

She said, we have that too. And then she looks up in my head. Well. That's what happens. That's what happens. Maybe if you were found TPA. There you go. Or you would have your edges.

I'm sorry to Raji. I mean, you had to have to give it to my brother. It was perfect timing. You know, I'm the older brother, you know. You know that, right? She's making up for all the times when you picked on her when she was little. I'm sure. But in the spirit of saving our edges.

Yeah. So I just remember I got my first install and I was like, well, this is great for protecting my hair. But how do I get to my hair? How do I take care of my hair while it's in an install? And so I created this concoction and I remember going on vacation with a girlfriend of mine. And her daughter, they had protected. of styles and they complained about Itchy Scout. But I said, well, use what I use.

And I put it together. And they came out of the bathroom. I was like, oh, my God, where do I get this? This is amazing. And I was like, give me a minute. And so that's how TPH was born out of my own necessity. And for me, it was about the education of Scout. Because I knew

women were getting installs wearing wigs, but I was like, I don't think they understand that you still have to take care of your hair if it's in an install. So that's when I was like, this is a great way for me to enter into the beauty industry. So that's how TPAs was born, out of my own necessity. And you now own it. I own it. I finally, I bought it back. It's mine. It's mine. It's I have a lot of work to do. But I am ready. I'm ready for it because it's mine. I feel like,

cookie. I own my company. Lucius. There you go. There you go. And, you know, that's where it begins. So now you're a businesswoman. Yes. You adding that on to your plate. Yes. But you've been doing all that and raising a strong black man. I want to know how do you manage it all? It wasn't easy. It's never easy. You know, as life you have ups and downs. You have dark days.

You have light days. You have gray areas. And for me, it was just learning how to take care of myself. Because as women, we take care of so much. And we take care of the family. And a lot of times we put ourselves last. And it took me a while to understand that if I don't pour into myself, I have nothing to give. And I've reached those points a lot in my life, trying to do so much.

And, you know, I come from the grind, grind, grind, you know, that grinding will kill you. You know, and I would work so hard and then just feel burnt out. You know, and it made me question sometimes, is this even still what I want to do? Wow. You know, because of the exhaustion. Acting. Yes. Yeah.

Also, too, having to do so many jobs because the money, the math wasn't mathing. Oh, got you. I wish I had the luxury of just doing one film a year. Right. Right. You know, but that's not the case for me. And that's not the case for many black actors, I would imagine, right? Yeah.

It's not. Yeah. So when you see us working a lot, it's because we kind of have to. Yeah. Well, you know, another story I think about is how mom and dad trained us to work hard. Mm-hmm. Do you remember the chores? Oh, yeah.

We had chores very early on, very early on. That's another thing, I think, you know. One of the best things that our parents did for us is real work. Real work. And what I mean by real work is I had my chores were to clean the bathroom. I cleaned the bathroom. What are you talking about? We alternated.

We alternated weeks. Okay. Because I loved cleaning the bathroom. And I didn't, but I had to do it. Mom wanted us both to know how to have a clean bathroom. But my every weekend job was cleaning those stairs. Oh, that's right. We had 14 stairs, notice I remember how many there were.

Yeah, you had to, yeah. That went from our apartment down to our great-aunt Robbie's apartment. And this is what I remember about Saturday morning. You remember that tin pot that we used to have? We had a tin pot, a pot now that you used to be on the stove, which was now used for cleaning. And you put a little dish soap in it. And then you put pine saw. Ooh, not like pine saw.

And there was nothing like that smell. Like when you came home from school and mom had been mopping and you could smell the pine sauce, it was usually Monday because she had laundry on Monday. You come home from school and it smells like, ah, new house. Yeah. And I have to say that I still to this day when I'm mopping. if we don't have that pine oil smell. That's it. That's it, isn't it?

And here we are in adulthood, and they're a partner of ours on this podcast. You know, an appropriate partner. How about it? So when you get a chance out there, visit pinesaw.com and find out where you can shop for your pine salt. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Fariflu as a product that was created to provide effective and comforting

relief when you're fighting the flu or a cold. Theraflu firmly believes that the ability to rest and recover when sick should be a right, not a privilege. You know, I think back to the time when my dad was working for the city of Chicago as a stationary fireman, and it seemed to us that he never missed work and he never got sick. But what we realized is that my dad didn't want to take his paid sick time because he wasn't sure if he would keep his job by doing that. And my sister and I realized that my dad would be sick, but he just thugged through it. It was a difficult thing for him to deal with then, and unfortunately, so many Americans still face this pressure today. 27 million Americans still lack paid sick time, which causes them to have to

choose between losing a day's pay and getting the proper rest they need in order to get better. And what's worse, this all-too-common issue disproportionately impacts lower-income individuals. Theraflu created the Rest and Recovery Fund, which has committed nearly $1 million to provide microgrants to workers to help offset the financial burden of taking an unpaid sick day. It's been making a big impact in Theraflu is committed to keeping the fight going, as everyone deserves the right to rest and recover. Learn more or help someone apply for the fund at TheraFlu.com slash right to recover. Well, Taraja, what you just said about being burnt out, I hear my sister talk about that. And now I didn't hear my mom talk about that, but I want to dig deeper into that a bit.

where does that start? Do you think you were trained to take on all of these things? Or did you develop that because you're out of necessity? Out of necessity to be excellent because we have to be so much more, we have to be so much better than most to get where we want to be. or is it innate just in our culture because where we have been because of slavery and it was really the black woman who had to protect the family because the black man was getting sold all over the place. Where do you think that comes from from you? And then I want to hear where it comes from me. I think it's a culmination of all of it because there is, you know, things that happen in slavery. That's still in our DNA.

that's still a part of who we are. Right. You know, so I can't run from that. That's my makeup. Watching my mother do it. Watching my grandmother do it. You know, it's just what I'm used to. Unlearning that trauma is where I am now.

You know, but for so long it was just, this is what you do. Yeah. You know, I watched my mother work two jobs, you know, and to put food on the table and pay the rent for our little apartment, you know. And so I grew up going, that's what you have to do.

You got to work however many jobs and grind hard to make it happen. I was a single mother, so I didn't have time to sit down. I remember one day, and this, like, Marcel was like four years old. I was so tired. I wanted to cry.

Like, you know, I don't think, I wouldn't wish being a single parent on my worst enemy, literally because, you know, think about when you're exhausted. And it's like the baby's crying, oh, can you go get them, honey? There was no honey. I was honey. Yep.

So if I worked 12 hours and I come home, I was still honey. I was still honey. I still, if the baby's sick, everything fell on me, you know, and I just remember one day, I just, I wanted to, I was on the sofa and I just wanted to give up. But that's not in me either. You know, I think those thoughts, but then my ancestors go, girl, you better get up. You know, and that's the, you know, the part of what you said that you never heard mom complain about it. I think that that's part of the issue. Part of the trauma.

You know, when we grew up, our grandmothers, you know, grandma Levan, grandma Rebecca, you know, these were all women, all black women had to work. Yep. our mother was fortunate. She didn't work until I went to high school, but that was a choice that she and my father made. So we lived off of one salary, and we made huge sacrifices for that because I think my mother understood

that if she was going to be the kind of mother she wanted to be, that we would forego living a good life, that we live in a little bit of apartment and just make ends meet. But that was a rare thing. But you've never heard these women complain because it wasn't what, it was just the way life was.

And I think that that's part of our trauma too because we grew up with women who weren't voicing the pain and the burden. They made it look easy. And when you make stuff look easy, people assume that you must like this. It's okay with you, right? Right. You know, we don't articulate as black women are pain. because it's almost like nobody ever gave us permission to do that.

And does anyone care? Yeah, there's that. Well, they care. If we knew, I think we would care. If we knew. If we knew. Or, you know, yeah. And we have to ask ourselves, the men in our lives is, you know, why wait to be asked.

You know, it seems like what we go through is pretty obvious. I mean, maybe we're not complaining. but we're actually living life out loud, you know, you see us carrying these babies. You see us working a job and coming home and managing, getting food on the table and handling doctors appointments. And this is, you know, if you've got a partner, right? I think some of us feel like, why should we have to ask? Yeah. You know, it seems apparent. And as black women, sometimes we, you know, there is that underlying thing we're socialized to believe from very early on that we don't deserve any better,

you know? Or that this is, this is life for us. It's going to be hard. Like, I grew up just expecting it. You know, I did. And, you know, it wasn't until, you know, like my son, he's growing up, there's no dad around my father, lost my father in 06, his father was murdered two years prior to that. And so it's like, who do I turn to? You know? And then, as you know, young boys, as he's growing up, the rose-colored glasses come off, and he's starting to see life for a young black man.

And that was difficult. And I'm not a black man. So how do I help him maneuver through this? And, you know, I was like, we need help. And it was time to look for therapy, which I never shunned therapy because my father was a Vietnam vet, and he always talked about his struggles openly. And so I was like, well, then we need help. And so I started looking for help for us and when I couldn't find anyone who looked like us,

because now I got to get my son to open up to someone and he's not going to feel right. If the person doesn't feel familiar. And I was like, something has to be done here. That's when I launched the Forrest Lawrence Henson Foundation in honor of my father. Because I know in our community, we just do not talk about mental health. We don't. Exactly. We do not.

Because we are demonized. We are chastised. It's looked upon as weak. You know, and I thought. We give it to God. We give it to God. And that's not. That's an important.

It's very important. But God gifted humans to be therapists to help other humans. So go hand in hand. You need. So I was like, this is a real problem. And we started looking at the numbers and only like 7% of the therapists, clinicians and psychiatrists were of color. I was like, this is because our children don't know to go into this career to even study this in college. And so I was like, we have to do something about this.

That's when I started the work in the mental health. That's when I started checking myself. Like, whoa, you have been operating dysfunction. for a while. You know, so a lot of the stuff I'm doing now is undoing. It's a lot of undoing. Yeah. But it's, I'm grateful because I feel better.

Yeah, yeah. You know, and then I can help this generation coming behind to not fall into the same, you know, traps that I did and believing the same things that, you know, we just didn't know otherwise to believe. Well, I think that's why it's important. for us at tables like this for women like us who do have a platform to talk openly about the challenges that we face not because we are complaining, which we don't want to ever be complaining, but because we need to change, we need to turn that cycle on its head. And we have to talk about our stresses openly, you know. And also as black women, we are so easily, we are so easily, labeled as angry and bitter. And let me tell you some of the most hurtful stuff that I experienced,

you know, entering this life of public service at the heights that we entered into was during my husband's presidential campaign and just me telling the truth of who we were, you know, just humanizing him as a man saying he's, you know, he's a great man, but he's not perfect. You know, he's got his foibles and his flaws trying to humanize him. The first thing that some female journalist said was that I was bitter. I was emasculating him just by sort of trying to tell the truth about what life is, right? And then you get labeled as angry, you know, because you talk forcefully or passionately about something, even if it's in the context of great joy and pride

that the first label they put on us as black women is that we are angry. And, you know, the irony is, is like, yeah, I am probably less light than many of my white female friends. I see that. Less light, less light, not liked, light. Light, light. Light, L-I-G-E.

because I say this a lot. I mean, I see the difference in some of my white female friends. I see a lightness and ability to be in the world and see what's going on, but still be not as burdened about it as I think I am. You know, I think that what I see happen in the news, you know, the assault on immigrants. immigration rights, the, you know, the challenges that face our community, the inequality. I think it burns at me in a different way. Because it affects you. Yeah.

It affects your children. Yeah. It affects you. Yeah. So imagine, you know, we wake up every day just carrying that. Yeah. You know, even if it doesn't directly affect me, sometimes I just have to stop reading the paper. Yeah.

So that I can stop thinking about all that's wrong. Sometimes I don't know about you, Taraji, I can't stop thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I have to, I'm not as, you know, I'm not on social media that much. You know, as you get older, you realize what's important and how to protect your peace. And honestly, social media, we're not supposed to feel all of the emotions that we feel in that short span of scrolling. One minute you're laughing, the next one minute you're laughing, the next room. angry the next minute you want to cry. That's not even, that's not right. Yeah, yeah. Something is

wrong about that. But, you know, a lot of times that's where you get the news and or you, you see something disturbing in it. I'm an empath. So I take things on. I stopped watching the news a long time ago. Yeah. I had to because sometimes I feel like, are they trying to scare us? Like, is there anything good happening out there? You know? So I had. to stop to protect my peace. Well, speaking of taking care of ourselves, and we like to think of IMO as sort of therapy for the folks who aren't quite there yet. And in that vein, I'd love to get to our listener question from Chanty from North Carolina.

We're not even halfway through the year. And as a black woman, I feel burned out. It's not just the world in politics, but it's also the expectations of myself and others as it pertains to my personal life, like career, family, issues at my job, obligations I feel pressured into, and more. I don't know you personally, but I imagine he might have been here before.

Any advice? Mm-hmm. Better learn the word, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I know, I know this both, this hits both of you in a different way or in a similar way. Well, you embarked upon an interesting, journey to find your piece recently. Can you share some of your tools for trying to find that piece?

Well, I'll tell you this, no is my favorite word. Yeah. No. No is. And I found out how powerful no is, especially in this town. This is a town of yes. Yes, men, yes, I'll do it. Yes, whatever you need. Just to make me a star. You know, but no is so powerful because that is you taking up for yourself. No, I don't feel like coming to dinner. No, I don't want to do that role. I don't, that's, that doesn't serve a purpose for me. Yeah. I know the check is great.

Maybe that's someone else's blessing. You know what I mean? And the relief that I get from saying no, because I, I know I'm protecting my peace. I know I'm doing a good thing because for a while I was the yes girl, the people pleaser, you know. And I just couldn't do it anymore because it wasn't servicing me. And I wasn't feeling fulfilled because why am I doing this? I've had to cut people out of my life.

It's okay. You weigh me down. You know, I can't carry your load and mine. you know, family members even. Yeah. Sorry. And you don't learn that. It's unfortunate.

You don't learn it until you get older. That's right. Because in your 20s, you just, I'm ready to do it all. Even in your 30s still. But as I be, you know, I'll say about 45, I was like, yeah, I'm not going to do that anymore. That doesn't serve me. That doesn't make me happy inside.

And if I say, yes, that person's happy. but then I'm left to carry something that doesn't feel comfortable to me. Yeah. Yeah. How have you shared this with your young son? And I say young because 30's still young. Yeah, very young. Do you encourage him to therapy? Because I'll tell you, you know how black men are with their, we, we ain't really feeling the therapy thing. No, he's not like that at all. Oh, that's great because it, we need to educate. are young black men, that therapy is a good thing. We go to therapy together. You think a mother-son, some relationship is easy?

Without a dad? That's right. It's not. All relationships need work. You know, even the relationships with my girlfriends, you know. We get in our little stuff sometimes, but, you know, we're in a place where we're all in therapy. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed, finding the right job or candidate. can be a game changer. I know that when it comes to finding talent, it's not about who you know

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syndromes or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer. The Coligard test is not a replacement for colonoscopy in high-risk patients. Coligard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can't occur. Colagard is available by prescription only. You know, when I hear you talk about the practice, what I'll call the practice of no, because you're absolutely right. And I know that everyone struggles with disappointing people, with trying to set boundaries. But I particularly relate to, you know, what you're saying about, it takes you a while before you, you know, maybe as a woman, as a black woman, where we feel comfortable saying, no, I was sitting here thinking, well, why is that?

And why was that for me? Because this is something that I am working on. on right now. You know, I, I, like you, I have believed in therapy my whole life, you know, done couples therapy with my husband, both my girls are, they believe in therapy, this generation. Thankfully, I think our children are way more open to it. They understand the importance of self-help and all of that. I also sort of realize that, you know, Even Michelle Obama, I am still trying to tell myself that I am doing enough, right? Because there's always that feeling. I think we practice that striving because in order to be successful, I always felt like I had to be

smarter, faster, work harder because somebody was going to doubt me. Somebody was already telling me why I couldn't do something before they knew me or even tried. So you get in the, and I don't think this is unique to just women of color. I don't think it's just unique to men. But when you get in that habit of that constant striving and constant proving that, you know, it's enough. It makes us overachievers, but you don't ever turn that off. And at 60, I was still, I had to convince myself that I had done enough. After all that I had done in the world, I still felt a guilt, right? Struggling with like deep guilt that maybe, maybe I needed to do a little bit more.

So I'm at this stage in life where I have to define my life on my terms for the first time. So what are those terms? And going to therapy, just to work all that out. Like, what happened that eight years that we were in the White House? What did that do to me? Yes. Internally, my soul, we made it through. We got out alive.

I hope we made the country proud. My girls, thank God, are whole. But what happened to me? Right. Right. Right. And going through therapy, you know, is getting me to look at the fact that maybe, maybe finally I'm good enough. Right.

And unlearning some of those messages that I've been saying to myself. and then trying to actively practice something different to rewire those neurons in my head that make me keep pushing and keep striving. And so practicing no in a very different way intentionally. But then this is what makes it hard because my decision to skip the inauguration, you know, what people don't realize, or my decision to make choices at the beginning of this year that suited me, were met with such ridicule and criticism. People couldn't believe that I was saying no for any other reason that they had to assume that my marriage was falling apart.

It's like, while I'm here really trying to own my life and intentionally practice making the choice that was right for me and it took everything in my power to not do the thing that was right or that was perceived as right, but do the thing that was right for me. That was a hard thing for me to do. I had to basically trick myself out of it, and it started with not having anything to wear.

I mean, I had affirmatively, because I'm always prepared for any funeral, anything. I walk around with the right dress. I travel with clothes just in case something pops off. So I was like, if I'm not going to do this thing, I got to tell my team, I don't even want to have a dress ready, right? Because it's so easy to just say,

let me do the right thing. But then you become a shock absorber. Yeah. And that's what women are. It's shock absorbers. And that's exhausting. And it's not healthy. Yeah.

It is not healthy. You've had to be shock absorbers for your husband, for your children, for your mom, for your family, your loved ones, because of where you were sitting. the public eye. That's not fair to you. When do you ever get to live for you? I applaud you. I am, I'm happy that you are taking care of yourself in the way that you need to.

You know, I've been talking to Misha about this and opting out might be that that, that's a, a great prognosis or a great, suggestion or strategy for folks who are feeling the way we're feeling the way we're talking about here. Because you can't keep pushing through. That's detrimental. That could end very bad because you're not paying attention. I mean, I had a girlfriend one time. She was taking on so much. She didn't even realize she spilled hot grease on her chest. She just disfigured her entire chest, doing too much. I mean, physically, it's impossible. You have to stop and go, whoa, what's happening with me? You know, I have to check out. I'm sorry, everyone, I have to check out for my own safety and sanity.

Yeah, yeah. And it's a hard thing to do, but you must. You must. I don't know if that's sending the kids away for summer. I used to get on my mom because that last day of school, my bag was in the trunk. And she was driving the damn south. Right? And I, I, you know, I totally get it.

I understand that woman needed a break. And I was a lot as a kid. I was very rambunctious, probably undiagnosed ADHD. But here we are. Found a way to turn living in a living. Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, but. Like you're saying, you're just learning, I'm just learning. It's something that you have to do. And hopefully, Shantay, you will get this message from hearing from me and from Queen Michelle that you have to take time for yourself in spite of making people happy. At some point, you have to make yourself happy. Yeah, yeah. It's that simple.

And one of the ways I started thinking about this, you know, because this is the habit. It's like maybe if I'm, maybe I'm still working on being able to do things, just solely for myself and being okay with that. I'm still working on it. Yeah. Through therapy and conversations like this and talking to my friends. But I'm still thinking about the example I'm setting for my daughters. Mm-hmm.

Right. So I am trying now that they are 23 and 26 to talk to them about my menopause brain. I'm like, how old are they? Is what he's referring to. I want them to start practicing now, the art of saying no. Yes. Because I see it in them, you know, pleasing, excelling, not wanting to take anything for granted, always showing gratitude, right?

Feeling like there are enough right now, right? It's a practice. It is. Right? It's a muscle that you have to build because it's. if you don't constantly build it, you don't develop it. And I think we suffered because it's almost like we are, we just, we started training late in life to build that muscle, right? I am just now starting to build it, right? I want our daughters. I want the young women out there. And I, you know,

I know we're talking about women of color, but we're talking about women and we're talking about all people who take on too much. I mean, we can identify and, we're, relate to our why as black women, but I don't presume that other people aren't dealing with these same struggles. Oh, absolutely. Right. So I want my girls to start practicing different strategies for saying no, right? I don't want them to, because if I'm showing up at this stage in my life, and they are seeing me still wonder whether I deserve to say no, what does that teach them if I, after all that I've done in this world, if I'm still showing them that I have to keep, I still have to show people that I love my country, that I'm doing the right thing,

that I'm always setting, going high all the time, even in the face of a lot of hypocrisy and contradiction, right? All I'm doing is keeping that crazy bar that our mothers and grandmother set for us. So I'm trying to teach them just like, you know, Shantay. You got to start practicing your nose so you build that muscle. The sooner the better. The sooner, the better. And here's the thing. What I've realized in practicing no a little bit, people can handle no. They really can. They have their choice. That's right. They have those toys, really. And we're not all that important. No. The world doesn't stop. Because I said no to your event.

They usually just move on to the next thing. Yes, absolutely. You know, so, you know, life goes on. And if we stop carrying the load, maybe somebody, we set it down, somebody will pick it up. Absolutely. You know, somebody will pick it up. I just celebrated, we, my family just celebrated my grandmother's 101 birthday. Oh, congratulations.

Thank you. And this woman who raised eight of her own children, one niece, raised nine children, was married for 61 years before my grandfather passed away. I see her living her life finally. You know what I mean? And I think that's why she's still around. Oh, my goodness. What does that look like at 101?

She, okay, so, well, she's been with me to the Oscars. She's been with me to the Emmys twice. She's come out here. She's seen every house that I've owned out here in L.A. She's traveled. She's been on cruises. And she not only, she prepares for the next day. Not only does she look forward to the next day, she prepares for it.

I love that. She was like, what y'all going to do for my birthday? She loves to celebrate it. and to have a good time. I see her living for herself finally. You know, she gets, it's literally about what she wants to do. Yeah, yeah. And I know that's why she's still here.

Yeah. It's like a second birth. Yeah. And we don't want to have to wait until we're 100 to do that. No, we don't. No, we don't. No, we don't. One to do it.

Yeah, or 55. Right. But I say, I don't know how old you are, but you better start saying no. I love that. So now let's think back to, so what you know now, you go back to the younger, your younger selves. Besides just saying you got to say no earlier, what are you telling your younger self so that you can start this work earlier? I wish I had known about therapy younger. Okay.

I didn't find that until late 40s, 50. Okay, okay. I didn't. I wish I had known about therapy earlier. I mean, I knew, but not only kind of, I didn't know, but I couldn't afford it. Yeah, really. Couldn't afford it. Yeah.

Yeah. And what kind of strategies are you learning that we can help Chanty with or that have helped you outside of saying no? I heard about that I thought was about you, Taraji, is that you play a lot. Tell us about, you got a play room? I have a play. I always, okay. So when I grew up, my mom couldn't afford a lot of this stuff. Remember the catalogs?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We would go in, rip pages, circle. Exactly. And so I always. Bathroom reading for us. Yes, yes. I loved when we got those big catalogs.

And I would go in there and I would circle. And I would always promise myself, I don't care how old you get. But you're going to be successful. And when you do, make sure you have your little girl's room. That's what I used to call it. Okay. And in that room was going to be all the things. that my heart desire.

You know, back then it was dolls and the things that in the toy book. But as I got older, it became the salon. And in the salon is where I play. I have dollhead. I have prosthetic hands where I practice doing nails. And during the pandemic, they called me the quarantine queen because I was learning, teaching myself how to do nails. I was teaching myself how to cut and color hair.

And that's where I would go. And anytime I'm in distress, you will find me in my salon. Wow. And what you're doing is doing what you love doing for yourself. For myself. People think it's a little creepy because all the dollheads are looking at you walking. But it's my happy place. It's my happy place.

It makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Rivian and they're fully electric, full-sized SUVs and pickups that are designed. for all of life's adventures. The folks at Rivian lent me an R1S to drive around while I'm here in L.A.

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We all do it sometimes because it's easy to envy friends' lives on social media when you only see the good parts. But you know what they say, comparison is the thief of joy, and in reality, nobody has it all together. Therapy can help you focus on what you want instead of what others have. Like that career goal you set your sights on, or that relationship you want to grow, or that daily habit you want to get into. because your best life is always better than the idea of someone else's. We believe in therapy at IMO, and we've seen firsthand how beneficial it is to invest in your own well-being. You know, this reminds me of my teams. When I coach back in my day, we didn't have therapists assigned to the team. And boy, it sure would have been nice to have

access to better help so I could send my players to someone who I could trust and was reputable. Better Help has experienced therapists ready to help you with challenges ranging from anxiety and relationships to stress. It's convenient too. You can join a session with the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life, and you deserve that. It's time to stop comparing and start living with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash IMO today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash IMO. The older I get, the more I respect anything that removes one unnecessary errand for my life.

But that's hard when you also like things done right, right? Take grocery shopping. Look, if you're someone who can just run into the store and not test the avocados and be in and out in 10 minutes, I'm happy for you. That's not me. With Instacart, you don't have to compromise on quality for conveniences sake. It's an app that helps you order delivery on your schedule, giving you a seamless grocery experience. What I like is that through Instacart, I can actually be specific. I can choose what I want, make notes, swap if I need to, and feel like the order is being handled with care. Whether it's a regular grocery run, stuff for dinner, snacks, household essentials, whatever,

delivery through Instacart can show up in as fast as 30 minutes, which is huge when your day is as packed as mine. Instacart brings convenience, quality, and ease right to your door so you can focus on what matters most. Download the Instacart app now and get groceries just how you like. I would be remiss if I didn't ask both of you. We don't know what Chanty's situation is, but how can we as men help you all with this process? Remember I said at the convention, do something. See, this is what I got to do.

Well, I'm a major point. Do something. Okay, any suggestions, my dear? Just a couple. Do something. You know what I mean? Because we as guys are trying to help, but we don't know how to help. We can barely get ourselves to therapy, right?

And we're trying to thug our way through this by I'm here for you, but I don't know what to do. Sometimes just saying that. Literally. Sometimes just saying that because I feel seeing. Okay. You're not just ignoring me. You're not just going on about your way thugging. your way through things, you're going, you know what, I see you're in distress, I just don't know how to

help. Then that allows me to go, this is how you can help. Okay. Open dialogue. And you know what I also want, you know, if you're not going to therapy, then I want you to find the place where you're going to keep growing to that, yes. And you can't grow in your own mind alone, right? So if you, if there are issues, you know, and you see me struggling, you know, you can't always fix my struggle, but I would want the men in their lives to take a look at themselves, too. Because if we're doing all this work as women figuring it out, going to therapy, you know, finding our peace, you know, trying to heal our trauma, then you got to be doing the same thing, too. Because it's not just me. It's both of us. It's all of us.

So I would say to the men, you know, do the work too. And find the way to do the work and the way that you can do it. And if you can't go to therapy because you're thugging it out, then talk to somebody. Somebody. Talk to each other. That would be something if that helps. And then, you know, throw a load of laundry in a, you know. Make breakfast.

Yes. You know, I, you know. Well, you know, I'm not, okay, if it's not you, then it doesn't apply. It doesn't apply, but for the brothers out there, if you can do. He did say the Airbnb, he watched the dirty uniforms. I heard him say that. Thank you. It's nice of you to remember that. No, this is, this has been extraordinarily helpful for me as a man to hear you all be so vulnerable and so authentic with this. So. And I also can be vulnerable as well. Yes. Be vulnerable. Don't thug your way through everything. Yeah, right.

And I think we have to talk. We have to, you know, we have to rip the veil off of these conversations. Yes. And talk about what we struggle with. Talk about the help that we're getting. And the help you need. The help you need. And we have to learn how to articulate our pain.

Yes. And not be afraid to say we're hurting that this is hard, that I'm scared, that I'm tired, you know. And then, you know, we want the men in our lives to, you know, give us a safe place to land when we do that, right? Yeah. Maybe there's nothing to fix, but maybe it's just, don't make us feel like we're crazy. Right. Right. Right. Right. No, I get it. Yeah. So this has been some heavy stuff. I would like to know. How do you spend your leisure your time. Like, what does Taraji Pinson do when she... Are you in your toy room?

I'm in the toy room. When you're not in the toy room. No, I... Do you watch anything? Are you reading anything? What are you doing? I enjoy... I just got a new puppy. Well, I already have a dog, Buddha. And Buddha just seemed lonely because I can't chase Buddha around.

He's a little French bulldog. Okay. And so I got him a friend. Zen, Buddha and Zen. And so right now, that's what occupies my time. And puppy holes is in. Four months. Oh, yeah, real.

And food is too. And so right now, they bring me so much joy. So that and, you know, family time. And I love going to visit with fans. Like I said, I just came back. I have lots of cousins. And, you know, that always. lifts my spirits

and it gives me the motivation I need to keep going my family because I just love my family. I come from a family where as cousins we all used to sleep on the pallet. Remember that the blankets. Before the blow-up mattresses, we had big blankets

on the floor. And so we're really close. So I'm saying that right now because that's what brought me this joy that I have I'm carrying right now because I just came back. Yeah. From seeing them. So, yeah. And a little birdie tells me that you are a real housewives fan.

Is that correct? Did I get that? I do. I watch, I watch. Unscripted is good because. I love unscripted too. Because it makes you forget about your problems. Exactly.

You're like, oh, they go to turn it off. Exactly. It's just like, they did not. What? Girl, no she did. You know, but it's my little secret pleasure. We have our production company Higher Ground, and a lot of people think that it's all presidential and we're going to do documentaries. And we just came out with unscripted later daters where we...

Oh, that's interesting. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. So we are, it's a show that couples find love matches for. for aspirational people over 50 people who look like us, you know, who are looking for love. I love that. It's got this great dating coach, this young woman, Logan Yuri, and you just sort of go along that journey.

We are working. I'm not trying to pump the show, but I'm just saying that people didn't expect us to be doing unscripted. Right. But it's like, well, that's my taste, right? I mean, I love those kind of shows where it's just regular people. I think that maybe that's the sociologist in me, that I love watching regular, human connection, real interaction, although my brother says that unscripted isn't real, you know, that real housewives ain't real.

They're acting. And we don't even care. We don't care. It's good TV. The most intellectual women that I know, myself, sister, my wife, my daughter, now you all watch this stuff. And I am shocked. Well, I'm always shocked.

But I always say, you know, the NBA is like the real, you know, that's reality days. But that's reality TV now. But it's still drama. There's a lot of drama. But it's real. It's real. It's real. I think people manufacture beef.

Well, you don't know. They manufacture. No, it's produced so you can have an actual beginning, middle, and end. It has to have some kind of structure. Otherwise, it's just chaos. But at the end of the day, those are real issues. It feels like chaos. Well, there is chaos.

Because there's chaos in friendships. Right. There's chaos in life. There's friction. So what's your favorite franchise? My favorite. You watch a little bit of all of them? I've watched a little bit of all.

So do I, girl. Love and hip hop. I watch it. Oh, I do too. Oh, my God, I'm so happy. Mama Dee. Oh, child. Yes, I love it because I know a Mama Dee.

Everybody knows a Mama Dee. They sure do. If you don't have one in your family, you got a Mama Dee. You are lying. You're just not recognizing Mama Dee. I have a Mama Dee in my family. I don't say who would. But I'm like that.

I tell my husband. And I was like, you watch golf? Right. I watch unscripted. Yes. And it brings me, I don't know. It just settles me down. And you get to talk.

And I guess the blackness in us, the call of response. Oh, girl, I would have said, I would have, right. I would have should have, if that was me, uh, uh, no. Like, talking to the TV. Right. You're like, girl, oh, I would have, I swear to God. Let me be at that dinner. Exactly.

Okay, I brought this on myself here. You sure did. But you made a connection because I would have never thought she would say love. Well, before we end up, and this has been just tremendous, and I want to thank you. But before we end up, I'd like to give Chante just, I want to recap the strategies because we hit on some good stuff, the saying no. and the find some therapy somewhere. And your points, your many points, but. Be okay with disappointing people.

You know, practice that disappointment and do the work of feeling good about yourself. And that was the one that really stood out to me is you're not just going to automatically feel happy once you say no. You've got to keep working. And there will, as I've discovered, there will be backlash to your no. Yeah. And the guilt that comes with because you've been saying yes.

You know, did I do the right thing? That's right. But both of you all said, but after you learn to say no, you realize the world keeps turning. Yeah, absolutely. So once you start to feel comfortable saying no, things are going to reconfigure. And then finally,

and this is just on my mental list of the things that I thought were really good outside of getting your men to go ahead and get in therapy was the, I liked your, the rejiggering your neurons in your brain.

You got to practice different messages to yourself because we have been raised with a different set of messages and that gets imprinted in you in some real ways, just like trauma and pain, all of that is in our systems, right? And it becomes a loop, a negative loop that we can't get out of. And I think for me, I'm trying to recognize that what keeps me from my own piece sometimes is me. Yes. Most of us,

most of us. It's me practicing old messages. And so knowing that I have to affirmatively work at telling myself different things is it's a real practice. Yes. At 61 years old to reshape the way that I operate in the world has to be mindful, intentional, and done frequently. Yeah, it takes work. It just doesn't go, oh, I did it today. That's right. That's right.

Some days are easier than others. Yeah. Well, Taraji, thank you so much. You are amazing. I love you. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. You are doing it. And just know you got two fans, a whole Airbnb full of fans of folks who are rooting for you every single step of the way.