In Good Company with Nicolai Tangen - Ana Botin Executive Chair Santander: Future of banking, inflation and women in finance

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

Ana is one of the most powerful people in global finance. She runs one of the world’s largest banks with over 160 million customers and over 200 000 employees. Ana shares unique insight into the future of banking, how to create a global culture and answer the question of do we still need the banks?The production team on this episode were PLAN-B’s Nikolai Ovenberg and Niklas Figenschau Johansen. Background research was done by Sigurd Brekke and portfolio manager Pablo De CastroLinks:Watch the episode on YouTube: Norges Bank Investment Management - YouTubeWant to learn more about the fund? The fund | Norges Bank Investment Management (nbim.no)Follow Nicolai Tangen on LinkedIn: Nicolai Tangen | LinkedInFollow NBIM on LinkedIn: Norges Bank Investment Management: Administrator for bedriftsside | LinkedInFollow NBIM on Instagram: Explore Norges Bank Investment Management on Instagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi everyone, and welcome to our podcast, In Good Company. I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Submarine Wealth Fund. In this podcast, I talk to the leaders of some of the largest companies we are invested in so that you can learn what we own and meet these impressive leaders. Today I'm speaking to Anna Botin, Executive Chair of Santander, one of the world's largest banks with over 160 million customers and over 200,000 employees. largest banks with over 160 million customers and over 200,000 employees. We own over 3% of Santander, translating into 16 billion kroner or 1.6 billion US dollars. Anna Patin is one of the most influential people in global finance. Full stop. You for sure don't want to miss this one.

big thank you anna for taking the time today you are one of the leading names in european banking and fourth generation of your family to lead the bank so was it always a dream of yours well thank you for for asking me to be with you nic Nicola. No, absolutely not. You know, I had like two stages. First, when I was very young, I wanted to be a pro golfer. I loved golf. Then when I went to university, and before I actually joined J.P. Morgan out of university, I thought I wanted to be a journalist or a spy, believe it or not. I thought that was a great way to travel and know

the world, understand what's going on. And I joined JP Morgan because in the 80s, that was a good place to be, actually. So no, I didn't always want to be a banker. But did your father want you to be a banker? No, I don't think so. Well, I never asked him the question, to be honest. And he actually asked me to leave the bank at one point when we merged with Central Hispano. Then he asked me to come back. But no, we never discussed that. There was never any pressure at all.

I was living outside of Spain between the ages of 13 and 30. So the whole family sort of atmosphere and so on was not such a big driver in me wanting eventually to join Santander. But growing up within a banking family and talking about the bank perhaps around the dinner table, how do you think that impacted you? Well, I mean, I see that now with my own children, kids, my sons, they all work in finance, but all started working in banks. Now they're all working in non-banks, even though they're in finance, interestingly enough.

So even though you don't realize it, it probably does sort of sink into you in a way that then obviously helps you or motivates you to be in the business. So yes, absolutely. But I think that was much more obvious to me when I joined Santander because I used to spend weekends with my parents. And so that's when, you know, I was surrounded not just during my workday, but in my weekends and time off. I was surrounded by banking and finance and what's going on in the world and in the bank. So I think that's when it really had a big influence on me. It was when I was already working in the bank. When the bank is so important in society as it is in Spain, Do you have other considerations than profits?

Absolutely. I always have believed that, you know, when you have more opportunity or when you have more power, you have more responsibility. And I've always, since the first day I worked at Santander, but importantly, when I was running Banesto or Santander UK and then the group, you know, I've always said that I care as much about how we make the numbers as well as doing the numbers. So I do want the numbers to be delivered, but I want them delivered the right way. I think that is absolutely crucial. And that is the best thing for our shareholders, by the way,

not just good for society and for the planet in the case of climate and inclusion and so on. But it's also the best way to make the business sustainable in time. And, you know, I'm very proud that Santander has been around for 165 years. And I'd like it to be around for the next 100 years. When you say deliver profits the Santander way, what is that? The right way for us, and we came up with this when I was running, I was CEO of Santander in the UK,

is do things in a way that is simple, personal, and fair. So those are the three words that each one of us at Santander turns to when there's not a manual. And it has to be simple and personal and fair for all our stakeholders, our team, our customers,

our shareholders, our communities, the planet. So yes, those are the three words that should and do make us different from other banks. How do you see the state of the European banking industry just now? How do you see the state of the European banking industry just now? Well, it depends how you look at it. So, you know, first, not just European banks, but banking, the regulated banks in the world are today much more solid. We have three times more capital. You know, we went $2 trillion in the global banking system to $6 trillion. We have a much stricter supervision, especially the bigger

banks in the world and in Europe. That goes down to very small banks, actually. So in that sense, the financial system is very solid. On the other side, it's suffering. It's suffering first from lack of growth. If you look at the growth in Europe vis-a-vis the U.S. in the last decade, it's a fraction. I mean, it's a third of what it's been in the U.S. Second, also from the lack of integration. We do not have a single market. And so that is a big tax on banks, a big tax on people, a big tax on corporations and on society. So this lack of an integrated market is really a high cost for all of us.

And third and very important, of course, is the fact that we're in a one in 100 years disruption time. disruption time. I mean, what is happening to our customers in every sector, not just banking, in terms of how they relate to us, it's a huge difference that sometimes the last ones to see are those inside the sector. So, which means, of course, that some new business models are overtaking in every single sector, the incumbents. This is especially true in banking and accelerating. So that means, of course, that, you know, evaluations have suffered in general for all these factors. Do we actually need the banks anymore? I mean, we have PE taking, you know, the corporate credits.

We have some of the consumer companies taking deposits. So why do we have that? Do we need the banks? Well, absolutely, you need the banks. The question is, do you need them as they are today? Or do we need them as customers want us to be? So if you ask a banker, you know, a current account is still the same as it was before. If you ask a customer, it's a totally different product.

Let me use an example. I'm sure you still have, at least I still have in my home, DVDs. I mean, I'm watching a movie in a DVD. I'm watching a movie in Netflix. Is it the same? I am sure you agree it's radically different from a customer experience point of view. Same happens to banks. We think that buy now, pay later is the same as consumer lending. It isn't. It's a very different product. So we need the banks to, and this is what Santander has been investing, and we're now delivering on that transformation. We need to understand that customers need and want our products in a very different way,

such a different way that it's actually a different product, even though we might think it's the same. Is the development from DVD to Netflix within Santander going quickly enough, you think? It's gone very fast if you take the overall scheme of things. You know, my primary and the board and my team's primary responsibility is ensuring we're safe for our depositors and that we also can support what is our mission to help people and businesses prosper. So we need to make sure we do both of those things. And I'm very proud that Santander has consistently been the best in stress tests. We have one of the lowest CDS in the world, very close to JP Morgan and so on. We have been successful in going from DVD to Netflix in the corporate bank,

in the wealth management, in payments, well ahead of many of our peers. And you can spend some time on that because it's existential to our business model that we continue to be at the heart of our customers' payments. We've done a lot of progress in auto, digital consumer bank, and where we have really a lot of work to do. And that's our focus. And that's where we need to go faster is in the retail commercial bank. And so that is really what we told the market in February. And I think was well received that our reinvention has to now extend. So we are really running a group where our global scale is helping us to be the best in each one of our markets, including in the retail commercial

part of the business, which is more than half of Santander, 60%. How do you think the ECB is dealing with inflation? I think inflation is here to stay, at least for some more years. I think if you look at the trends in the world, you know, net net and of course, the digital AI and there's a couple of deflationary trends, but most of the trends right now are inflationary. on the side of going a bit too far. I think they're doing a good job. I think, as I always say, they have all the data, all the information. I'm not going to double guess what they're doing. But I have learned from a long time, you know, 30 years in LATAM,

that it's difficult to kill inflation without having positive real rates. And, you know, maybe we're there with core inflation. Depends on the countries in Europe. So I do think it's going to be higher rates now for longer, the same way we had lower for longer. But I think they're doing a good job and inflation has to be contained if we want to get back to sustainable growth. If you had been in charge of the ECB,

would you have raised rates earlier? Madame Lagarde does a fantastic job. Moving on to South America. Now, what are the big opportunities? I mean, you are very large in South America. What are the big opportunities for you? Well, you know, I believe in the laws of physics. Anything that doesn't go forward goes backwards.

And so I do think Santander has a very unique differentiator from many of our peers globally in at least Europe and the U.S., which is we have growth and we have growth mostly because of Latin America. We are, you know, the leading bank, number one bank in Latin. We're number one in auto finance, if you take the continent as a whole. We've added 40 million customers the last eight years, and we're saying we're going to add 40 million customers the next three years because we are in Latam. Brazil and Mexico together have 340, 350 million people, and they're increasingly well off. So, again, growth. It's very important also that we have managed to make these countries profitable. Each one of our banks in LATAM is and has been, in the case of Brazil, number one for the last two or the last three or four years.

Mexico is second or third, but getting at very high levels. So it's profitable. It is very important for us also that we're able to bring into the financial system new people. We have reached our financial inclusion targets because of Latin America,

you know, two years early, we 11 million people, we included in the financial system. we've increased that target also. So it brings us, again, profitable growth. It gives us also scale, a scale that we can then use to benefit Spain, UK, US and other countries. So it's a combination. Again, we mostly lend money. Our risk in terms of balance sheet is mostly in Europe and US,

but a lot of our growth and our higher profitability today is in LATAM. Now, you're a global business. Have you got a uniform copaculture across? Increasingly, yes. I think that's one of the key strengths that we have been able to develop over the last few years. Again, we grew very fast in the 90s. And so when I took over, I would say we were quite far away from having a common culture. Almost nine years after, I think we are in a much better place. And it's essential for the change that we have been able to achieve.

How do we work as a group while ensuring that our local country leaders have accountability? And this is something which we cannot lose, but we need to do both. Have you got a Spanish corporate culture? No, I don't think so. I think we have probably a very Latin corporate culture, but we absolutely, you know, I'm in London today. Our colleagues in the UK feel absolutely part of Santander. Our US, the same. Poland, the same.

So no, I'd say we have a, you know, of course, our origin is Spanish, and I don't think we want to, well, we don't want to lose that because there's many positives, but it's a combination of the whole group. As a matter of fact, the simple personal affair was born in the UK, so it's not a Spanish. And that for us is really important. The simple personal affair is what every, and we ask our colleagues around the world, it's absolutely something we all believe in. What characterizes a Latin corporate culture? We have very strong family values, I think stronger in general than other cultures. We are very, and that is in a way good because of the medium term.

So I believe our culture is less focused on, and of course we want to deliver every quarter, but we also want to deliver in the long term. And I think that is partly from the sort of more Latin culture or way of thinking. It's outspoken. It's very direct. I think that is also something which we want to do even more of, and sometimes we struggle with. So I do think it has differences from other cultures. Now, again, it's not the same. And at the end, it's a fusion of every country that belongs to the Santander world. But I'd say speaking up and being also medium term, long term oriented is some of the differences. So how does it work to speak up in countries

where they normally don't speak up? So, you know, I love England, but speaking up is not exactly what they do most of, is it? It depends. It depends. You know, the UK is not all the same, right? You have Scotland, you have the Scots, the Welsh, the Irish. I learned that when I was here.

So every country, you know, even Spain, you have the Catalans, the Basques, I'm half every country, you know, even Spain, you have the Catalans, the Basques, I have Basque, you know, the Southern Spain is different. You know, it's very much what the leaders do. And I believe that by, you know, our leaders in general, and I'd say all of them now are very much of the speak up kind of people that we want across the company. It is very important. I once, many years ago, had dinner with the CEO of a big American bank. And he told me, you know, one of the reasons that speaking up is so important is that if people try to, you know, fix the problems and then escalate them, by the time they get to the

top, they become huge. And so you want people to give you a heads up and then, of course, make sure that if they can, they can fix it. But we're aware and we can manage in the right way. So we've been very, very focused on that and ensuring that in the countries, and it was not all the same when I took over, that we're really much better at escalating issues so we can solve them together or at least be aware that we have a problem. You are one of the most senior women in global banking and global finance.

Is it more difficult to run a Latin culture? No, I don't believe. I mean, I lived for many years outside of Spain. So for me personally, I find it, you know, as long as I can communicate and I've been very upfront about having everybody share a common language, which of course is English, I feel very comfortable with all the cultures where we operate. Why are there so few women at the top of the financial industry? Not just financial industry.

I mean, even in the political world or in the central bank world, I was recently at a meeting with central bankers, and I have to say there was a global meeting. I believe there were three out of 35 women. And one is my boss. One of them is my boss, okay? One of them is your boss? Yeah.

Okay. Head of the Norwegian Central Bank. She's our chair. So, you know, there's a number of reasons. And I'm trying to do as much and not enough, I have to say, as I can to make sure that, you know, it's much easier at the board level to, you know, to get to reasonable levels. It's obviously much harder when you want to make sure that you have a meritocracy and you give everybody a chance in your organization. in your organization. So we have set targets and we are going from 20 to 30% of women in senior leadership roles in, I think, five years, six years. You know, there's a number of reasons. One is, and there's a lot of evidence in this, that, let me just give you two that are proven.

I've seen lots of studies on this. One is that women do not put themselves forward for a new role, you know, for a more senior role, unless they're more than 100% qualified. Men tend to put themselves forward when they're 30, 40, 50% qualified, which is great. So, you know, one thing we're working on is how can we give women the confidence to actually come forward and say, yes, I want to have a chance of getting that new job. And this happens across industries, not just finance. The other one is what they call the maternity tax or paternity tax in some cases, but it's mostly women that obviously pay the price. We've seen that in many cases. price, we've seen that in many cases. So careers are very parallel between men and women until you have a family. And then the woman tends to have most of their, or assume most of that responsibility.

And then the gap goes like this, right? So again, how can we get around those issues? You know, mentoring, having support for the families. And by the way, I know, even in, I was in Denmark two years ago, meeting with our leaders from the Nordics, exactly the same issue as in the Latin countries. I mean, it's not just, at least in finance, because I met with all the senior women, again, in Copenhagen,

and it was not very different from what I heard in, you know, in Sao Paulo, Madrid, or other places. So it's a universal issue that we need to fix. Did you have a mentor helping you? Not really. I, you know, I was always very, you know, I spent eight years at JP Morgan in New York, including in the trading floor. It was absolutely a man's world at the time.

In the trading floor, there must have been three women out of 100 or something. I mean, very, very few women. So I was accustomed to dealing with men, usually much older and all the same. But now it's the opposite, I guess. Who do you get advice from when you are wondering about something? So when I took over initially at Santander, the vice chair, Rodrigo Tenique, who'd been in the bank for a long time, he was absolutely a key, in this case, mentor for me, if I may call him that. Our lead director, Bruce Carnegie Brown, is an amazing sounding board. He's sort of my boss. And I absolutely

talk to him every time there's an important decision and get his advice. And even on people issues and so on, I like to get lots of opinions, but I have three or four that I tend to reach out more than. Hector, our CEO here at Santander, he and I speak constantly, almost every day, and consult each other too. We're very much a team. What's the best piece of advice you ever got? Well, the best piece of advice I would say and i i i i i've tried to to do that is when when you

make a mistake fix it fast when you find that somebody's not up to the job you know mission first that to me is really important you know mission first sometimes we are scared about moving people or making decisions that you know are right because, you know, mission first and try to mitigate the risk and make those decisions. I think making decisions in a timely way is absolutely crucial. And so when you look at the leaders and you look at how you model your own leadership, who is your role model here? Which leader really impresses you? Well, what can I say? In our sector, Jamie Dimon is sort of the person who's done a great job. He's been there for a long time.

At another level, my grandfather, he's the one who took Santander from being in the 50s from being a very small bank in a region to being you know a national bank he took a big step by buying his a competitor much larger than him and one of the things he often said is he was asked in an interview so how have you been so successful? And his answer was just one word. He said, time. He was asked the question three times and he said it three times, time. It takes time. And I think that is really important. Of course, we need to deliver and we need to deliver every year and that I have very clear, but if you want to build something great, it takes time. And to to me he was also a role

model you mentioned your your grandfather and and uh you mentioned that your father had laid you off uh um would you mind just elaborating a bit on that did you read that somewhere yeah and you mentioned it it in the beginning as well. I did, yes. Yeah, well, it was mission first. That's exactly how he thought, and he did the right thing for the bank. Was it nice for me? No, it wasn't. But he did the right thing for the bank, and I think that's what matters.

Well, you for sure have bounced back, which is the important thing in life. But a bit of the learning from this is interesting. You bounced back, you came back, you took over the UK operations, and you then took over the whole bank. You know, wow. Well, before the UK, and this I will tell you briefly, I was asked after three years where I set up my own private equity fund, I set up two foundations, I set up a tech company in the internet boom of the year 2000. I was actually doing pretty well for myself economically, much better than what I was then offered when I came back.

But what's important is that I came back to Rambanesto and I was asked to do that from one day to the next. And I said yes. And why did I do it? realized that, you know, if I wanted to do something more than just doing well economically for myself, if I wanted to have an impact, you know, running a bank was an amazing way to do that. And having that chance doesn't happen all the time. And I thought it was worth it. So, so I did come back to run Banesto. But I learned a lot in my three years, you know, running my own businesses. years you know running my own businesses talking about life outside work i believe i mean you mentioned you're a golfer i believe you do yoga you're interested in art what is your uh what is your favorite thing and i'm just also add i think

your art museum exhibited the collection of my fellow Norwegian, Alin Kage, at some stage. My favorite, I probably put golf. I also enjoy skiing. I enjoy, you know, trekking and hiking in the mountains. I love that.

But golf for sure. Golf has helped me a lot in my career. It's allowed me to develop relationships with mostly men, actually, who run the world and business in general still today. And so that has been great because I can do something I love. And at the same time, it's good for business. Erling Kage, yes, I met him. He's great, by the way. I highly recommend his books. Silence is one of them. And he has a couple of really good books. We had great conversations when he came to Madrid. His collection was very, very appreciated by

all the viewers here in Madrid. And I love art. Yes. The Family Foundation, the Botin Foundation has, so Erling Kage was at the Bank Foundation. yes. We do an exhibition every year of countries where we have a presence, and we did his. Talking about books, what are the two books which have made the most impression on you? There's a book by Chris Launey called A Vanquished Era that I'm finishing now, which is unbelievable, which is about the the when it's

actually the muslims in spain the arabs in spain that were there for 800 years even though really in most of spain for only 300 but it's really interesting to to it's a very well written book i highly recommend it where you know and the reason i'm reading is because everything that's going on in the world in terms of geopolitics and us coming apart instead of coming together. And it tells you about how Muslims, Jews and Christians were able to coexist. It also tells you the problems there were. So I think it's a really interesting story about something that happened and that is in a way happening again at different levels. You know, I've read many books.

The one that I am very interested now is not longevity, but health span. How can we actually live better for a longer time? How can we, as we get older older be healthy and in good shape um because that's the only way to be in a good you know to be productive and ultimately happy right and what's and in addition to playing golf what is the key you think well i was going to say that um i mean i don't i i recommend the book i'm reading now, I'm finishing, called Outlive by Peter Attia, A-T-T-I-A, which is very interesting. So I've gone through cycles in this. So I'm in the cycle.

So I used to think it was critical to find time for sports and cardio activities. Then I was a big believer in if you have to prioritize, because obviously you don't have time to do everything every day, especially when you travel overseas and so on, sleep. I'm now back to cardio again. So, yeah, I now think doing, of course, if you don't sleep a minimum, you cannot exercise. But I do think doing cardio exercise is absolutely key for your health, both physical and mental. Lastly, we have tens of thousands of young people listening to our podcast. What is your advice to young, ambitious people?

So I think balance, opportunity and flexibility are three key things to bear in mind. Balance because you cannot, you know, it's been said many times, you cannot have it all at the same time, right? You can have it all, but not at the same time, whatever you like it. So I think having a balance, you cannot, you know, if you're working and have a family, at some point you have to give up on your friends and hobbies for some years and so on and so forth.

So finding that balance, which is different for each one of us at different times, very important. that balance, which is different for each one of us at different times. Very important. The second is flexibility. And this I learned by living outside of my home country for many years and having to, you know, in countries and places where I was just one more person. Nobody knew where I came from. So learning to adapt to different cultures. You asked the question before. I lived in seven different countries before the age of 30. Now, of course, you don't have to do that to be flexible, but being flexible, understanding, being able to... And then opportunity.

I mean, you never know when something is going to happen that is good for you. And again, if you get the opportunity, as I did, to come from a family that was able to give me a good education, you get the opportunity to go back, as you were asking before, to the bank. You know, you have to be ready to take it. So to me, those are three things that are incredibly important in life, or at least they have been for me.

Well, Anna, you for sure have taken the opportunity. It's been really great talking to you. Big thanks and safe travels. Thank you so much. And thank you for having me.