In Good Company with Nicolai Tangen - Fortescue CEO: Breaking into Mining, Going Green and the Accident That Changed Everything

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

Nicolai Tangen sits down with Andrew Forrest, Chairman and CEO of Fortescue, to explore one of the most remarkable stories in modern business. From building a mining giant from scratch against a 60-year duopoly, to pledging to run the entire company on zero fossil fuels by 2030 with no offsets, Forrest has never been afraid to think big. They discuss his "crazy brave Plan A" philosophy, the role of AI in running smart energy grids, and his disagreements with some of the world's most powerful people over climate policy. Andrew also opens up about the accident that reshaped his priorities, his philanthropic mission tackling modern slavery and ocean conservation, and the simple advice that guides his life: be useful, and enjoy it. Tune in! In Good Company is hosted by Nicolai Tangen, CEO of Norges Bank Investment Management. New full episodes every Wednesday, and don't miss our Highlight episodes every Friday.  The production team for this episode includes Isabelle Karlsson, Halvor Njerve and PLAN-B's Niklas Figenschau Johansen. Background research was conducted by Karoline Woie. Watch the episode on YouTube: Norges Bank Investment Management - YouTubeWant to learn more about the fund? The fund | Norges Bank Investment Management (nbim.no)Follow Nicolai Tangen on LinkedIn: Nicolai Tangen | LinkedInFollow NBIM on LinkedIn: Norges Bank Investment Management: Administrator for bedriftsside | LinkedInFollow NBIM on Instagram: Explore Norges Bank Investment Management on Instagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi everybody. I'm Nicola Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Subun Wealth Fund, and today I'm in particularly good company because I'm here with Andrew Forrest, who is visiting us in Oslo. And Andrew, he is the chairman and CEO of Fortescue, one of the incredible companies in Australia, a mining company. You started it in 2003, against all odds. It's done extremely well, taking on the incumbents, and now you are making an even bigger bet, running this as a zero fossil fuel company by 2030 with no offsets. And then you're giving away billions. So, warm welcome to Oslo. You are the type of guy we like. Thank you. Great to be here. You know, normally I would dive in and talk about the business, but it's just you have got such an incredible background. And can we

start with a beginning, you know, your birth? Yeah, okay. I look. Where were you, I mean, where were you born and how was your upbringing? In Western Australia, immediately on a big sheep and cattle station. It's about a bit shy of a million hectares. Sounds like a lot of land here in Norway, but over there it's not that big. It's normal. School in the middle of the wilderness? Yeah, but actually by boarding school from, I think it's eight or nine I went to boarding school, but my early years were by school of the air. You literally had a radio schedule for 30 minutes each day. And kids from like 500 kilometers radius used to jump on this scared we used to call it, School of the Air and that was all cool and grievey for the other kids to speak on a radio to their

teacher four or five hundred kilometers way but not for a kid with a bad stutter and I had a very bad stutter so I found out how long did that last so it's a sudden challenging I didn't kick it really until I entered the school debating team so it was either do or die when I was about 15 16 I started to kick the stutter were you given a hard time when he was small yeah you could teased a lot I mean That's how it was in those days. Yeah, exactly. So this is all Revenge of the Nerd. Exactly.

Good. Now, before Fortisque, you started something called Anaconda Nickel, which didn't go so well. Well, see, I'd protest that enormously. But the lessons from it were spectacular. But look, let's just talk about Anaconda. So it started from nothing like Fortiskew. We did a $1.4 billion financing, which back then a billion dollars had a lot of respect. It's a long time ago.

And it was bringing in a new technology which has stood the test of time. Like it got taken over by Glencore. It's now their purest nickel and cobalt metal for batteries, cathodes, etc. supply. But, you know, I was like a kid, right? So I didn't kick off with a big percentage. You know, you immediately got pushed around by big shareholders. And, of course, being a naive kid, I thought, well, if I enter into contracts, then surely the company will be protected.

Now, I've learned a big lesson from that. Never rely on contracts, rely on people. Because it was an innovative technology, innovative flow sheet, huge, like straight up to 45,000 tons of nickel, three and a half thousand tons of cobalt, two kilometers long, one kilometer wide, utilizing about a third of Perth's water supply, but it had to discover all its own water out in the desert. I mean, it had everything going against it. But it had this big type of nickel deposit, which no one could commercialize

except for this particular technology, which was breaking tech. So I built this huge plant on the back of a big engineering company, who said, we'll guarantee it. It's called lump sum fixed price. Anyway, they did guarantee it, but they took some shortcuts. So on a lump sum contract, you pay them the amount of money you agree, and if they can build it for less,

that's more money in their pocket. And they took too many opportunities like that. It was a company called Fluor Corporation, and the process failed from the outset, and we had to rebuild it. And we had to rebuild things which really shouldn't have failed, like an acid plant, a power station, a pressure letdown system. These are fairly basic technologies.

They weren't part of the innovative system. But you left that company then? Well, I did because before my 40th birth direction agreement, Glenn Corp were coming in there saying, oh, we're going to blame you for everything. I said, you can't do that. People want us in his broadcast to talk a bit more about things that went wrong, you know, because everything goes so well.

Yeah. So what a, just a few. I'm happy to talk about it. Oh, yeah, we don't have to spend a lot of time because we all have spent away the huge successes you've had subsequently. But just what did you learn from it? What did you do to you? Look, I touched on it.

Contracts behind and way behind people. If I'd relied on people I could do at Fortiskew. We've run into equally big problems at Fortiskew, but if you have a passionate group of people committed to the same set of values so you're running with the same culture, galloping with the same culture, then you run into these huge problems. and you don't dive to lawyers, which people do, right? But what do you think about the world than the world now

is moving more towards lawyers and litigations and contracts and all that stuff? Well, we won't. I mean, and I think that's probably why we've been able to move with such speed and be so successful because I believe in people. I believe in taking a group of people around you. You could be from every part of the world,

black, white, brindle, any sex you like, who cares, but you abide by 10 values. And that's kept forward to your 10 values, I like a lot. Now, then you started Fortisque in 2003. Yes. Tell me about it. Fortescue in 2003 kicked off with a, well, it was like anaconda, a concept stock. I announced that I was going to take on the iron ore industry, but not adversarily, but through building a railway and port system which they could all share. Now B.HP, Rio Tinto, even Valé, they all own port and rail systems, and they don't share them with anyone. And of course, they were underutilized, fully underutilized. But instead of

being infrastructure, we all share, they were used as a barrier to entry. Now, I didn't really get that. So I said, I'll build a port and rail system, and we can all share it, and we can all do well. and I'll just be an infrastructure provider. And they really said, well, how does get stuff sound? So this is how they tried to keep you out. Yeah. Did you have any money when you started up 40sque? I think I had a mortgage.

That's about it. How do you go from having nothing to building up one of the most successful companies in Australia? Look, I think grit and determination. I mean, you have your eye focused on a goal. So we had our eye totally focused on. building a port and rail system and when the incumbent player said well we're never going to use it so okay we'll will then extend that target will lift instead of going backwards we'll increase the danger increase the level of difficulty and also become an iron ore producer and we've thought through being

port and rail to supply other to transport other peoples when they said get nicked I said, okay, well, we'll go find our own ore bodies and explore them and try and get into the business ourselves, which was several times harder than just providing infrastructure. But that's what we went for. BHP and Rio Tinto had controlled the iron ore industry in Australia for 60 years. 60 years. And then you just decided to take them on. I decided to take them on and everyone, Nikolai, thought it was impossible.

Yeah. What was the most difficult part of it? Oh, there were so many times where your heart felt absolutely broken, Nikolai. What was the hardest? Oh, I think the financing was immensely difficult. The terms of the financing kept changing. We had a cyclone, which is like a big hurricane, come through. It killed three people, including two people on our site.

I flew straight back. I was in an investment conference in America. I flew straight back and went with my father and stood beside the beds of those people who had survived, but were injured. And I remember holding this big, burly bloke's arm of the hand, tattoos all over him. And I just started to cry.

And he did too. And he's a huge guy, all bandaged up. And he said, how do you feel young fellow? I was called my nickname Twiggy. Because you were quite a then. Yeah. And I said, well, I don't care how I feel. How do you feel?

He said, I'm going to get through. Will you get through this? And I said, I don't know. I feel like giving up. No one was meant to die. You're not meant to be injured. And he said, if you give up, and it was holding my hand, big guy, still injured, big guy.

He said, if you give up, none of this was worth it. You must not give up. And it really shook me. And I said, well, I'm not going to. And really the rest is history. But I needed that message to come at me hard from someone in a much worse position than me. When did you understand that it was going to be something big for this queue?

Oh, look, we planned a crash or crash-through scenario. I mean, we went for, you know, what I'd say, anyone who's trying to start something off, work out what your goal is and then work out what your biggest barrier is. So our biggest barrier then, our biggest size limitation challenge was, believe it not a railway line, not a port, but a shiploader. A shiploader at that stage only could do 25 million tonnes a year. There was a new technology which arguably could do 40 million tons a year. Now, if we could, if we could get a hold of that technology for shiploaded, which could do 40 million tons, then that justified the huge cost of the port

behind it and the railway behind it and the mines behind it. But it had to be big. And that's what sized it. We'll come back to this, but one of your ideas is crazy brave plan A. Was that one of those? It was. Always, always, always have crazy brave plan A. They most often fail. But you don't have a crazy brave plan A. There is no crazy brave plan A unless Nicolae, you have a bulletproof plan B. You don't go anywhere for your plan A unless your plan B is bulletproof. So we have a cross-Fordescue even now. You don't need permission to go and have a crack at something which no one else has done. You just go and do it. But when it fails, because it most likely will, then the company's not at risk, you're not at risk. And everything

goes, keeps going because your bulletproof plan B. Well, if you've got big ambitions, you achieve great things even if you failed. Even if you fail because you learn so much. Exactly. Fail your way of success. The competitors, they went into other minerals like copper and so on and you stayed in iron ore and why that focus? Because focus is the key to success. Just, you know, I had this culture which evolved around leadership. You know, leadership is the sum of leadership and membership, and the membership is critical. Everyone's got to believe in the same goal, in the same dream, and not be distracted. Now, we had plenty of people saying, well, we've got a great idea for nickel or zinc or copper or this.

I said, look, if you want to pursue that, pursue that with another company. But for us, we're going to stay just on this goal. The biggest critical mineral, the most important mineral in the world, is iron ore. Stay fixed on that. And we did. And it's focus. Focus, focus, saved us many times. You have also focused in on China. Yeah. What do you think about that risk? That was hard work in the beginning because, you know, we had to persuade huge companies across the world, but particularly in China, to take this little upstart seriously.

And they said, holophone. You've got B.HP and Rio Tinto back then they were the biggest companies in the world, right? I mean, they were huge. And Iron Ore was the most profitable element. to be in Seaborne iron ore. Now you've got big tech and everything else now, but back then massive profit margins in seaborne iron ore dominated by Valé, BHP and Rio Tinto. And they said, no way. If you deal with him, you're not going to get any iron ore from us. So how did you solve that problem? They couldn't deal with everyone. There were enough small mills and rebels who were

who could look at BHP, Reiturn and Val and say, well, actually, I don't like that. I don't like that. fact you're using us to push him around. So some big steel mills broke rank, but many smaller mills said, well, they don't look after us anyway. We'll deal with you. And it was enough to get us going. What's the key to success in China? Well, it's a contact sport, right? So it's rough and tumble. And look, I think the Chinese is very pragmatic. Remember that they're chasing this dream, that they want to leave a better world and a better living standard for their kids. That's the primary motivator. It doesn't sound that different from ours.

But for them, it's really serious. When I started Fortescue and I went around all the steel mills, we'd hold these occasional large dinners, which, you know, the dinner bill was more than the market was worth sometimes. But we'd hold these large dinners, and everyone would introduce themselves. And I'd say, well, what did your dad do? What did your mum do? And in almost every case, their mum and dad were farmers.

Like, farmers not to make money, farmers just to survive. So that cultural revolution nearly undid China. And from there to the new leadership to the mixed free enterprise economy, you had this burning ambition sparked by the suffering they've had to never go back to that suffering, to never go back to that poverty, and that ambition still runs deep in Chinese psychology. Now, the coming generation will, of course, not be anywhere near as determined

because their parents can make ends meet. They can feed the kids. They can pay off the mortgage. But back then, it's only one generation. They couldn't. Are you worried that that hunger for success will disappear in your own family? You know, it's a great question. an exact typical mate.

So what we did with our kids is sit them down when they're young and say, hey kids, we're talking telephone numbers of capital now. It's not really cash you can go down to the shop and buy ice creams with. It's held in a company. Now, do you want to inherit that and be obscenely rich? or would you like to actually make your own way? And they literally said, well, what's best, Dad? What's best, ma'am?

It said, so much better that you know that you're probably not going to starve. Things go wrong, but you make your own way. And we take all that capital and we give it to philanthropy to people who'll need it so much more than you. And they said, well, we don't have anything. We might need it. I said, no, no, kids, you've got what most. people never get. That's a great education and a loving home. So that that's where that capital

should go. And they said, sounds great by us. Yeah. And we agree. And one kid said, you and I, you and I, we're going to a line there. But we'll be back to philanthropy a bit here. But something happened in 2016. You had a personal accident. Wolf, you've done your research. What happened? What happened? It was late 2015. It was a kind of life-changing event. I was hiking through canyons up in one of the most remotest regions of the world. It was absolutely wild. We took a weapon with us because there are crocodiles, which were around all the time. But we knew if we climbed higher and higher and higher, then the crocodiles would only stay in the salt water, not in the freshwater. So we climbed a long way as a result to make sure that when we stopped and had and met a

helicopter with the family that would be right out of danger. Part of this climb involved going around a ledge over a large pool of water and the ledge gave way and I slipped into the water and my leg got caught on a tree route like which came out of the bank of the river. into a loop and back into the bank of the river, and it snapped my leg, like it snap a matchstick. But the wrong way, like it did that. It went the opposite way to how knees normally bend. And I think I might have passed out, but I remember when I first realized where I was, and I was looking up at the surface of the water, and it had gone still.

It'd gone still like a mirror, so I realized that A. I was on my own, and B, I was drowning, and C, I'd been there for a little while because there was no ripples in the water. I'd fallen, and it was flat. And I then had to get back to the bank with my leg facing away from the bank, but I had to bring my body to face towards the bank to climb out. And so I had to, this is not a pretty story, but I had to break my leg even first. to twist it to get back to the bank to pull my head above water. And anyway, I got flying out. It was a wonderful helicopter pilot.

And I had surgery and I came out of that in a wheelchair. How did it change your thinking about life? Look, I mean, what it did is just the kids really had the biggest impact. The kids said, you know, Dad, you're in a wheelchair. They say you'll be able to walk again one day if you're lucky. maybe, maybe not. There's still discussion with the leg be amputated, so it was an unhappy time.

And the kids said, look on the bright side, you've always taught us that. You've wanted to study the oceans all your life. I mean, the whole time, when you get more than two or three days' holiday with us kids, you start talking about the damn oceans all the time. Go study the ocean. Do you in a wheelchair?

What could go wrong? Go do it. And I thought, oh my God, okay. and I applied for a master's, I got rejected. I said, why did I get rejected? They said, well, masters are for people who want to learn how to do research. You've been doing research for 30 years. In fact, every one of your business enterprises involved new and breaking technology.

That's research. You can do a PhD. We're not going to take up a master's position on you. So I said, what, a PhD or nothing? They said, yeah. Oh, okay. And so I applied for four-year PhD and studied marine ecology. How old were you then?

That was in 2016 I applied, so you work it out, Mac. So you're 64 now, you're 54? Yeah, 54, yeah. Why did you want to study the ocean? Because it's the most important part of the planet by a mile. It's, you know, in this very thin veneer of atmosphere we have above terrestrial earth above land. that's one or two percent of the world's livable space. The other 98 plus percent is all ocean.

You know, from top to bottom, it's full of life. It doesn't matter if it's in the bottom of the Mariana trench or on the coast at Norway. It's full of life. But most people don't care so much about the ocean, but why do you care so much too about the ocean? Because of that. Because, you know, I grew up,

I actually grew up in the middle of Australia, right? So I mentioned that huge sheep and cattle. I'd call it a ranch or farm over here, but it was massive. And whenever I could get to the ocean, which was long way away, I used to just love it. I'd just marvel at it and get in it and try and put goggles on and see what else was underneath it. So yeah, I've really loved it.

So having studied it, how did you change your business? Ah, that's a big question. So what the study of marine? In relative short. Okay, I'll be quick. The study of marine ecology taught me the four major threats are plastic, pollution, overfishing, and climate change. And I was able to do papers in my thesis on the first two. But climate change was such a huge area.

I was allowed to study it, but if I tried to publish on it, then they said it's going to delay your Ph.B. By up to two years. But the most impactful part of that PhD was learning the massive impact. which global warming is making on the oceans, on the marine environments. And I thought, I've got to do everything I can personally to stop that. Now, I had this very successful company called Fortescue. By that stage, it was already Australia's most successful company by a margin in shareholder returns in stock exchange history.

I thought, I've got to do more with this company than just sit on. A bit of a tacky question in here. How much money did you have then? Tacky question. Yeah, I said a third of the company, say $20 billion. It was $60 billion company. So you've got $20 billion. You do a PhD in marine ecology and decide to focus in on the climate.

Yes. And to use this very successful, heavy industry, heavy mining company, everyone said, well, your company will be the last to change. You're on the hard-to-abate sector. And I thought, what, mining and heavy industry? Yeah, they're the two hardest. And said, right. So then you decided for zero.

This company is going to be the one that changes. And so, yes, we studied it for years and years and years. The first concept we had of trying to replace oil was back in 2013, but we're kind of noodling with it. And just not take it super seriously. And then I did the PhD And then we really started to look hard for solutions Electrification, hydrogen, all of that

And by 2022 We believed we had enough answers to commit the company To going without any fossil fuel by 2030 And we're on track and probably ahead of track Yeah No, super impressive And now you're also into electrification Yeah, we're in grid and these kind of things

Yeah Very seriously Look an oil minister of Saudi Arabia, a few back, are no longer with us, but he declared never let the oil price get over $80 a barrel, otherwise we will be replaced. And I think that guy was about right

because the total reconstruction of the energy market from the Straits of Famos and whatever else may be thrown at it is upon us, and we're seeing massive increase in orders in interest from all over the world for Ford's Q's electrification like 10, 20, 30X. How will you take this going forward? What's the plan? I think that...

No other mining company has followed your direction here. No, no, we have, I mean, look, no other miner followed me into iron ore. No other miners said you can break the cartel between B.HP and Rio and Vival. They're the biggest mining companies in the world. They'll crush you like an ant. So I accept no other mining companies following us now either. But when we save a billion dollars a year because we eliminate a billion liters of diesel, diesel equivalent

from our supply chains, then they will all follow. But they will watch until that happens. And that is happening. We're already starting to save operating cost. and that's a massive competitive advantage. We consider we're the most efficient mining company on Earth because we have the lowest cost already per ton,

but when we go fully green, our costs will go completely out of reach of any competition until they turn green. And that's my message to the world. If you don't believe in climate change, well, you're an idiot. But if you don't, fine. But believe in a better life. Believe in a lower cost of living.

believe in a lot of cost of energy, that's green. Some pretty high-profile people disagree with you on a few things. Yeah, apparently. What are some of the public, I love these kind of stuff, you know, but what are some of the public fights you've been in? Oh, look, well, we're clearly going green in the first place. Everyone thought, well, he's an idiot. Why would you do that?

He's super successful on fossil fuel. I've challenged that. Plus, I've started to challenge that. Plus, I've started a challenge around the world, but, you know, everything should begin at home, right? Yeah, but I mean the American precedent has named you. Yeah, Lord Muske has named you. Yeah, well, that's okay. But I still feel the world's making a huge mistake, subsidizing fossil fuel.

If it's not going to subsidize renewable energy, I'd say, take the subsidies off all energy and let us all compete. And you'll find renewable energy will compete. And that is removing the biggest threat which organic life, including, by the way, humanity has in front of it. And climate change is no joke. I mean, you don't feel it in Norway, but in the tropics and subtropics, you get humidity, and humidity kills. Humidity rises seven to ten times quicker than heat.

And humidity kills. You call the fossil fuel seals for oligarchs, fruitcakes, invaders. No. I said, if you want to protect yourself from oligarchs, fruitcakes and invaders, like someone invading a perfectly beautiful country like Ukraine or other examples, then which really smashes your overall cost. So you don't know what it's going to cost to run your business or your household from year to year or even day to day. That means you don't have sovereignty, you don't have freedom.

And until you make your own energy, you can't really claim you're a free sovereign country. What do you think about diesel fuel tax credits? Well, that's part of the subsidies. I mean, that locks in everyone to just consume as much diesel as possible. And that is crazy, right? Diesel is in short supply. You've got these huge companies like mine with massive balance sheets who are competing against moms and dads at the bowser, at the distribution pump for their cars.

And by the way, they pay us to compete with them. So not only we bigger and uglier and with bigger cash at bank, But they pay us to out-compete them. And I just said, that's crazy. Why should we, like a dozen of this big mining company, swallowing, $2.5 billion per year, paid for by mums and dads, to compete against mums and dads for diesel? I mean, that's crazy. And it's stopping all these other mining companies from going green.

They all watch Fortescue, and they say to me, behind closed doors, why should we change? The government doesn't want us to change. The government's giving us a huge credit and cash, baby, for not changing. I'm saying, well, that's got to stop, right? That's just crazy. You should be the people who can afford to innovate, can afford to take the risk like I'm doing. You should be the perfect people to lead this country, yet you're saying the government's stopping you.

But that's really an excuse. So let's remove the excuse. Let's move on to leadership and culture. You've written a book about your 10 values. and in good Australian style they involve from crocodiles and these kind of things and here we have it I love it

I can a way to read it it's you know like Mao Tsetung's you know yes thank you thank you what are the most what are the most important values in your

in your company oh look it's really just saying who's your favorite child in your family I mean, you really can't single one out. I think the one which protects us most, I think you're a perfect example, is humility. Knowing, you know, greater than anyone else,

you've got gifts which are different to other people, but you might get great bricklayers or great singers or whatever. I mean, they're incredibly gifted people, but they're not worse or better than you. So it gives you an understanding that of that urgency, see of great teamwork. Are the values your personal values as well? This is how you run your life. They are, as you ask. It's funny that, isn't it, how personal values define company values. Yeah, they are. Yeah, I haven't been asked that question, but you've put it on the table,

they actually are. Now, look, I'm imperfect, right? They're very hard to keep to all 10 all the time. Okay. One on courage and determination. Hit the crocodile closest to your canoe. What is that? Hit the crocodile closest to your canoe. It means don't get distracted. When you're on a mission, make sure that you stay absolutely focused. And when you're challenged, don't get distracted by big challenges over the horizon.

Fix the problem which is closest to you so you can stay on course. Be the most positive person in every group. Why, first of all, why are you supposed to be? Where does it come from? Well, I don't think you can be a negative leader. I don't think, I've never heard of a very pessimistic, downtrodden, unoptimistic leader. I think positivism and belief in the truth of what you're doing is really important, but it's not just having the deductive power to know what is true, what is false. It's also, once you decide what is true, what is good, what is going to create value for humanity,

then stay absolutely focused on it. Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Yes. That's pretty clear. Be in the deep end of the pool. Okay, that's learning to swim. Yeah, that means as soon as you're comfortable with where you are,

step out further, become uncomfortable again. Try and get used to a state of being. uncomfortable, try and get used to, failure being around the corner and when it hits you, it's annoying, it's sad sometimes, but be grateful for it because you'll learn at least 10 times more from that failure than you ever will from success. Yeah, we are one family. I mean, what? That's the, that's critical. Sure, but what do you do with people who don't perform? We find, look, if we find people if they, if they find people, if they stick to the 10 values and they live and breathe them, there's no doubt they're going to perform.

It's more the other question, Nicolai, it's what do you do with people who are really, really good performers, but they're not great people to be around? What do you do with them? It's really tempting to keep them because they really perform their areas, but they make sure no one else does. You've got to let those people go. They're going to be better doing something else, but not in your business. I had expected you to have some crocodile DLD quotes like,

that's not a knife, that's a knife. Exactly, exactly. AI, how is that going to change the company? Well, AI already is changing the company. I mean, we have an operating cost of several billion a year, so you can only make that much difference by changing it. But I think we'll be able to take operating costs down by hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars a year and our efficiency through the roof.

And it's already had massive impact. And I just want to tell you two. One is it taught us how to automate our truck fleet better. Our trucks are huge trucks, right? The hubcap would be above this ceiling from where we're sitting. So obviously the tires are twice this ceiling. And they go around the world in terms of mileage or kilometerage. twice a week.

Do you enjoy driving them? Well, they drive themselves. They're fully automated. Fully automated. And the other is operating a green grid. We have this 600 kilometre long, nearly 500km wide grid, measured in gigawatts, measured in gigawatts of storage, and it's massive. And that grid has to be run at lightning speed because with renewable energy, everything

changes in an instant. If the wind changes or if there's a cloud bank goes over a solar field, everything changes in an instant or somebody drives under a power line with a crane or there's a bushfire, that grid is attacked. AI heals that grid through a distributed battery system and artificial intelligence and it heals that grid so fast that if you were watching a light when the grid was attacked, you wouldn't see it flicker. It would just be seamless. And it's freakish for electrical engineers because all engineering electricity systems in countries and cities

rely on a thing called rotary inertia, like these big spinning wheels or these big spinning turbines. And that's called inertia. It's kinetic rotary energy. So when there is a drop in the power or collapse in the power, that huge wheel or these huge turbines keep on, keep on giving you that rotary energy to keep the grid going. You don't need that anymore.

That's what gets attacked in Ukraine by Russia, those huge generators, those huge turbines. Now you can have a distributed system with nothing bigger than a shipping container. Can't attack that. And the rest is artificial intelligence. Can't attack that either. So it is going to transform the world as we know. We call them smart grids. Very interesting.

Circling back to Foundation and Philanthropy, you set up your foundation 25 years ago. What are the priorities? What do you feel strongly about? I think for the world, the natural world,

it's the oceans. Now, we've got to protect the Brazilian, the Latin American and the African rainforest. It's an absolute must. We have to protect species, etc., etc.

So we are pouring capital into that. But the part of the ocean, which part of the world no one sees is the ocean. So in the terms of natural world, we tend to focus in hard like my PhD did is on oceans. In terms of the human world, what disturbs me most is the risk of AI and trampled AI controlling us instead of us controlling it, particularly between very vast military forces, like China and America. So we focus hard in working with both China and America and with tech companies to make sure that AI is safe.

Now, we do our best here, but AI companies have to lean in themselves. And then on the more humanitarian side is modern slavery. Slavery will be a new thing to all your listeners. They'll think, oh, that went out with the Middle Ages. No, it hasn't. You've got a greater number of slaves now. who suffer the indignity of not being paid, of not having their own passport,

of not being able to leave their jobs, forced labour of an extreme extent. How do you attack that problem? Well, first, we brought it to light. We measure slavery in every part of the world through a document called the Global Slavery Index. And secondly, we advocate for changes of laws and recognition that all countries,

you'll have slavery here in Norway. We have slavery in Australia. in Australia, it appears in our agriculture sector, it appears in our seafoods and processing sector. But it's all over the world. No country can say they don't have slave because they do. And so we measure that and we advocate against them just because most people I know aren't psychopathic. They're not going to want to have someone operate as a slave, but there are industries

which still exist where if they can get away with slave labor, they do it. Where do you get your energy from? where do you get yours? I get mine from talking to people like you. But you'd just be sleeping a couple of nights on trains and that kind of stuff. You know, 64. I am, yeah, no, I look, I absolutely love life. I did actually witness someone dying slowly in my arms as I sang them nursery rhymes as a child from a burn from a bushfire.

and I decided at that point in time I would cherish every single day and I kind of have and yeah I like you I love to get up in the morning I don't like it after after taking the night train to Kiev which rattles like a washing machine without water and you're the sock in it but and then rattles all the way back and then you sleep a night in the middle in a hotel and your brain is just going nuts so you can't sleep there either. So I think get lots of sleep like I haven't. Drink plenty of water. Eat as healthyly as you can. Limit alcohol. I mean, I don't care if me or anyone else has a drink, but don't make a huge habit of it. And you'll have abundant energy. Oh, and most important thing, keep an optimistic view of

life. That's the key. What you think is how you feel. How do you unwind? How do you what? Unwind. How do you relax? Oh, unwind. What's that again? I unwind by driving my phone on the floor.

Look, I love to get out into the wilderness anywhere. I love to get out of the wilderness in Norway. I love to get out of the wilderness in the Pilbara, in the Kimberleys and Western Australia. I love to get on the back of a horse and ride for hours and hours and hours. Have you got horses? Yeah. Yeah. You're a good rider?

I can stay aboard. But no, look, whenever I go back home, that family farm station is still in the family. Whenever I go back home, I get dropped on the horse truck miles and miles away from the homestead and I ride back. And it's the most, it's you and the horse

and it's just divine and the wilderness. Do you barbecue? Yeah, sure. Of course. Of course you do. Now, when you look at everything you've done, what are you the most proud of? Oh, coming on this podcast, mate.

Of course. Being a guest of yours, one of the most important people in the whole investment ecosystem. And here are you interviewing me? Why have you got interest in me? What are you the most proud of? Oh, okay, back to the story.

Okay. Oh, Nicolai, I think I think probably employing people, making difference in people's lives. How many people have you employed? Look, if you include construction, probably over 100,000 people. We keep now about 25, 30,000 people within the private equity, the foundation and Fortiskew. But it's, I suppose I'm proud of not wasting a day. you know, to live what this old Aboriginal guy told me,

this old Australian Stockman, non-Aboriginal, told me, live your life usefully. Now enjoy it too, young fella. I remember the words. Be useful, but enjoy it. Now, you don't always enjoy achievement because it's tough because you fail, but you kind of always enjoy looking back on it.

And at the time, you can also enjoy it. So I try and live through those very simple rules. And if you were to translate that into advice for young people? Yeah, I'd say simply that. I mean, it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor. If you want to live a happy life, that's really what you should think of. You know, how to live your most fulfilling life. And I'd say, always think of being useful.

That's useful to others in particular. Be useful and enjoy it. Andrew, I would say you have been very useful to very many people and you for sure have enjoyed it. It's been a great pleasure. Thank you, sir. It's been great being aboard this podcast. Famous podcast, by the way, one of the best in the world.

So I'm very grateful. Thank you so much. Thank you.