In Good Company with Nicolai Tangen - James Quincey Chair and CEO of Coca-Cola

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

What’s the secret to Coca-Cola’s success? And what’s in the secret recipe? Tune in and find out! The production team on this episode were PLAN-B’s Nikolai Ovenberg and Niklas Figenschau Johansen. Background research was done by Sigurd Brekke with input from portfolio manager John Santo Domingo.Links:Watch the episode on YouTube: Norges Bank Investment Management - YouTubeWant to learn more about the fund? The fund | Norges Bank Investment Management (nbim.no)Follow Nicolai Tangen on LinkedIn: Nicolai Tangen | LinkedInFollow NBIM on LinkedIn: Norges Bank Investment Management: Administrator for bedriftsside | LinkedInFollow NBIM on Instagram: Explore Norges Bank Investment Management on Instagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, everyone, and welcome to our podcast, In Good Company. I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian So-and-Well Fund, and your host today. In this podcast, I talk to the leaders of some of the largest companies we are invested in, so that you can learn what we own and also meet these impressive leaders. Today, I'm speaking to James Quincy, the chair and CEO of a company that has satisfied our thirst for over a century, namely the Coca-Cola Company. Coca-Cola was initially introduced as a medicine in the late 1800s. Now, they are the world's largest beverage company, with over 200 brands serving 2.2 billion people every day. We own over 1% of Coke,

translating into 28 billion krones, or almost 3 billion US dollars. Now, how did they manage to develop such an iconic brand? And where are they keeping the secret Coca-Cola recipe? Stay tuned. It's funny. We had Bill Gates on the podcast quite recently, and he only had one thing he asked about. What? Diet Coke.

Diet Coke. He is a believer. He is a believer. Now, we, of course, all know about Coke. Now, if you were to distill down the kind of secret sauce, what do you reckon has been the secret sauce to Coke? I think one of the pieces, one of the elements of the secret sauce there what what do you reckon it's been the secret sauce to cook i think one of the pieces one of the elements of the secret sauce particularly a brand coca-cola has been this in two two dimensions one has been an enduring ability to be both a touchstone to something you know that has been there for a long time i mean the formula of the same, the Spencerian script of the font is like this,

all these touchstone elements of comfort of the past. Yet each generation of managers have made its marketing and the way it's brought to the marketplace relevant for that moment in time. So it is both representative of continuity into the path and comfort, yet also relevant and exciting about the future, which is a very hard balancing act to do. The other hard balancing act which has been achieved is to be both a global brand and local in each of the countries it's sold in. So, yes, it's a global icon. It's obviously heavily linked to being an American icon. But in many countries, most countries in the world, they see it as a profoundly local brand. So again, generations

of managers have made, not just maintained a unique, coherent, global unity, but have also managed to make it profoundly local. I believe that 94% of the people in the world actually recognize the Coke logo, which is probably one of the highest brand recognitions in the world, right? How do you develop that type of iconic brand? Firstly, a massive, massive, massive amount of consistency. We have never, ever, ever changed the logo. Not that the number of design agencies haven't tried to entice us to do so. Not that it was standardized in 1886.

It took us until about 1923 before we standardized the logo. But once we standardized it we never ever changed it because you know people learn to recognize things not just the words and the sounds but the visual image so we have we have protected jealousy jealously all that um iconography around Coke and never ever changed like the font and the fact that Coke is red all the time and I think that you know after so many years of marketing and success is part of why it's so widely recognized. One of the brands which has really done the worst on blind test is Red Bull. I mean, people just absolutely hated it. Yet, you know, they made the boxes smaller,

they increased the price, and hey, it's selling like, you know, it's selling incredibly well. So is it all about brand and association? It's about everything. You experience a beverage product with five senses. It's not just about the taste. The package it comes in, you can get people to debate heatedly whether a beverage, a Coke, is best drank from a can or a glass bottle or people i mean people have strong opinions on the matter and that's without talking about the liquid that's just the thing they're holding in their hand because touch matters smell matters sight matters everything matters when you drink the drink so these tests you can test one sense if you want but in the end it it's the package of fences and the ideas that in people heads that the make the brand of the

beverage, you cannot fully disaggregate them. Generally speaking, people prefer things that taste good. But you cannot disaggregate the whole mental imagery of what goes together. Now you often have athletes in your ads. Why is that? People want to connect with people they know sometimes we generally um spend most of our connectivity on the overall sport or or music in general rather than personalities personalities can come and go um but the world cup is always the world cup you know we've been doing the Olympics for almost a hundred years very long-term

sponsors of FIFA World Cup etc etc and so it's much easier to build up long-term platform around the property or the event rather than a person who's gonna who's gonna come and go you also use Santa Claus as a spokesperson. Yes. True. Why? When you think of Coke, it's happiness, it's optimism, it's enjoyment. I mean, it's a set of things that are very true about the Christmas period. And so over the years, we have used the vehicle of Santa Claus or the polar bears. You know, famously, one of the more modern characterizations of Santa Claus

was actually known as the Sombloom Santa, who, by the way, he was Swedish. So very near to you. was Swedish, so I'm very near to you. And there were actually many Santa Clauses in those 100 years ago, and the Sambaloo Santa was one characterisation that caught on. And it just fits very naturally with the brand and the time of year and people coming together and sharing meals and occasions. Changing tack a bit and talking about your distribution, you know, I've been to places where there isn't even clean water, but guess what you find in the fridge?

A Coke. So tell us about your distribution network. Absolutely. The product reaches almost every corner of the world. And I think there are two aspects which are very interesting. One, by chance, not necessarily by design, it is a product that survives a decent amount of time in tip-top condition.

You don't get degradation of the product over time. So it stays in good drinking order for a very long time secondly obviously we have created demand um and because we've had the philosophy of everyone should make money along the chain it gets to the far reaches of the world because it's there's an economics incentive for it to do so actually there's a good uh podcast by melinda gates talking about actually how ultimately we ended up helping the Gates Foundation move some AIDS medicine around Africa in various very rural areas. And part of the thing that they the reason they got to Coke was they thought, well, if Coke can get everywhere, we can get everywhere. But then they couldn't. And they were trying to think, well, why did Coke get there and we don't get there?

but then they couldn't. And they were trying to think, well, why does Coke get there and we don't get there? Because it's often life-saving. And the answer is everyone along the chain wants the Coke to get there because they make a bit of money. So economics matter. Now, you have one competitor called Pepsi, and you may have heard of them.

They have a very big market share in Norway. So I think it's one of the countries where it has the biggest market share. How come Pepsi in some countries have a high share and in other countries they haven't? A lot of historic reasons is the short answer. There were some countries where they got to before us and they have had some historic share positions. There are some countries where we fell asleep at the wheel. I think the one that's big in Norway is actually the zero sugar version of it. It's been too long trying to hang on to tab in Norway.

And so that is generally one of the two buckets that characterizes where we have yet to become market leader in every single market. There are a few left that we are not a market leader in. But overall, our leadership position keeps extending each year. Now, looking at the consumption trends, what are the trends? So two ways of looking at consumption trends. One is to say they're incredibly stable. One of the arguments I make with the investment community is to look at the beverage industry and think about firstly how stable it is. If you do a histogram of the growth rate of the beverage industry, the median growth rate is let's say

4%. Maybe not in the last couple of years but let's say historically last 30 years four percent and the chance of it didn't grow four percent it was three or five i mean this is not fluctuating in wild numbers it's a very steady industry and that's driven by the fact it's really a small ticket item beverages are cents or a few dollars and it's a population driven business and the industry is largely as yet uncreated in the developing and emerging market so there's a long way to go so firstly actually in some ways the beverage industry is very stable it grows at a steady, and it's got a long runway ahead of it. Is that why Warren Buffett, who is your biggest shareholder,

I think he said that a ham sandwich could run Coca-Cola? I'm not sure I would count myself as the bread or the ham, or maybe the peas in the ham sandwich. But I think Warren loves it for a whole set of very obvious reasons. Like I said, it's a stable industry. We're the market leader. We gain shares steadily each year. And we have a long track record of continuing to grow. We had 61 years in a row of growing our dividend. And that makes us an all-weather play. Moving on to AI, which is really, of course, the hot talk now, and we discussed it when we met in America.

And you mentioned it yourself. It's been driving some of your advertising. Now, tell us, apart from some of the kind of already existing models that kind of optimize for certain things within the supply chain and other ways it's used, I think this next generation of AI examples, the first thing we did, we married the text AI with the visual AI and allow people to make essentially outdoor ads about Coca-Cola through the AI machine. So they were able to go in, pick Coke images, and then tell through the chat AI, you know, what did you want the image to do? I think the winner was there's a Coke with a cat in space. Like there's zillions of images. So it was a competition, hundreds of thousands of entries.

And we put up a whole selection of the best ones in New York Times Square and Piccadilly Circus on London. And really it was empowering consumers to play with the assets and the AI technology. So you can clearly see how AI can revolutionize content creation. The reality is it already is in the movies we watch through the cgi um but that's kind of large set piece movies this is coming down to a kind of a very simple terrestrial level it can every image you see outside on outdoor and not that far in the future on advertising

is going to be can be generated by by the machine um and that's going to be can be generated by by the machine and that's going to be profoundly change everything we're also just rolling out internally within our own kind of cloud basically taking all our internal documents and putting them into the machine so instead of hopelessly trying to find something in the company which of course you never end up finding to find something in the company, which of course you never end up finding, you can just ask the machine, tell me how to do X. And that X could be, how do I give money to a charity that gets matched by company funds? How do I maintain a juice line? How do I do X? And all of that is going to be at people's fingertips. So it's going to make people more productive because it's going to make the knowledge more instantaneously

available. How much do you think it could drive productivity? I don't know how high it's up. What I do know, though, is I would rather be on the front end of this than on the back end. Are you worried about it? Yes. I think there are a lot of general kind of technology related potential disasters, potential problems, whether it be bad actors or, you know, more dystopian kind of outcomes. So clearly there are ways this can go wrong in a general sense. And there are ways it can go wrong in a specific sense related to us. You know, some of these models don't necessarily optimize for truth. They optimize for engagement and they optimize for credibility. Credibility is not the same as truth. And so I think it's very important as we go on this AI journey,

you're never going to understand the math behind it. My brain's not big enough for that. But you can understand that it's an optimization model. And therefore, questioning what are the objectives that it is being set? What is it optimizing for? And what are the parameters around it? What are the safeguard rules around it? What corridor can it operate in? I think are critical questions that could be asked. Well, we're coming out with an expectation document this summer on this, so stay tuned. Now, moving on to governance.

So we recently voted at your AGM, and we looked at the filing that you sent us beforehand, and you spent a whole 40 pages to explain the salaries and the compensation system. Does it really need to be that complicated? Does it need to be that complicated? Maybe not, but there's a lot of appetite from investors to understand the compensation.

And I think rightly so. To have disclosures arguably got too long for the average investor? Probably. But I think this idea that the investor should understand what are the incentive systems in place in the company, what are they driving? Because at the end of the day, incentive systems do work. They're not the only factor that people pay attention to, of course. There are other guardrails, other incentives,

other ways that people derive success in companies, promotions, other things. But incentives are there because they work, or at least partially work, and therefore investors should understand what they are there to reinforce. It's all very well as having a clear strategy, but if we had incentives that pointed in a different direction,

then investors, including myself, should be worried. And so I think it's important they understand them. The amount of disclosure is largely driven by the zeitgeist rather than necessarily, I think, 39 or 41 is the right number of pages. Now, as you know, we as a shareholder advocate that the role of CEO and chair should be split, and you have both the roles which we vote against. Who is controlling you? Who is overseeing you? I'm overseen, of course, by the board and the lead independent director and the investors.

There are no shortage of investors looking over my shoulder as well. looking over my shoulder as well. And so we feel that for the Coca-Cola company, combining the two roles is the right answer because we have a robust lead independent director and we have a robust board environment in a business that is very large and very complicated. And therefore, we find that at this moment in time, this is what best suits the Coke company.

It is ultimately a very large enterprise. There's no real, I mean, there's a tremendous amount of transparency and visibility to what's going on in Coke and a lot of observers. So it's not like there's an absence of oversight either by the lead independent or the board or the investors or all the other people who analyze the Coke company. So I think perhaps that provides a different environment. either by the lead independent or the board, all the investors, or all the other people who analyze the company. So I think perhaps that provides a different environment. And certainly, I would invite people to look at the results are good too. So I think the governance is there, as it should be, and the performance is also there, which is good. But you are yourself a board member in Pfizer.

Correct. How much influence do you feel there that you have over the CEO and the chair? I feel that the board can absolutely execute its role if it so chose to do so. You know, there are a set of critical decisions by the board, capital allocation, CEO succession. Being on both ends of the stick, so to speak, between the two boards, I don't feel it's a problem. Anything you learned from Pfizer that you are applying to Koch? Yeah, obviously I joined them at a rather interesting time at the beginning

of 2020. And I had thought that we had got better at innovation. But when I saw what they were able to do to bring the vaccine to the market in less than a year, given that it's normally many, many years before a vaccine gets launched, was truly a staggering process. The rate at which innovation can be called forth when you need to, when the focus is there, was firstly incredibly impressive in their case, and I think a source of inspiration to me as I think about our own business. inspiration to me as I think about our own business. Now, obesity has grown to pretty epidemic proportions. I think now more than a billion people worldwide are characterized as obese. Do you think we'll be able to reduce obesity

rates going forward? I think we can and should reduce obesity rates going forward. I mean, we certainly have probably happened a few decades ago, gone past the point where there are more calories available in the world than human consumption. Generally speaking, for most of human history, we've had a slight deficit now there's enough food generated so we have it absolutely needs to be an overall and it is an overall governmental policy focus and a bit like the earlier questions like what's our role in it yes we have a role we need to make sure we're offering products that help in that sense, whether it be smaller portions of our calorie products or zero sugar products, or as we innovate to reduce the calorie profile.

So absolutely, it needs to be part of the future. We are seeing many governments implementing sugar taxes. What is your view on that? We are seeing many governments implementing sugar taxes. What is your view on that? Yeah, I think, look, there's a couple of pieces. Taxes certainly tend to affect demand. The question, I think, would be twofold from my point of view. One is, is the action likely to produce the outcome that they're looking for? If the outcome is less obesity, does that very narrow tax on one product category, is it likely to drive down obesity? And you can look around the world where they have the sugar taxes on soft drinks or beverages in general, and find that essentially it hasn't made a material difference. The problem needs to be addressed in a much broader perspective. That's point number one.

Point number two is I think where the taxes have been put in place that also provide an incentive for innovation, i.e., for example, they're tiered. The more the sugar, the more the tax, the less the sugar, the less attack, then there's an incentive for companies to continue to provide great tasting beverages, but to slowly bring down the calorie profile, as indeed happened to some extent in salt in some countries. So I think, you know, pressurizing things with taxes, really it's about innovation and getting people to change their diets all the time, which is a broad topic that needs multi-pronged action. And I think that's really a matter for the policy. You're also moving into alcoholic beverages.

What are the plans here? Yeah, we've been experimenting in the boundaries between the non-alcoholic and the alcoholic world. As every industry develops, people look for the white spaces and look for the opportunities that are most adjacent. And there are a set of occasions which tend to mix alcohol and soft drinks, mixers.

And we see an opportunity, what is called the alcohol ready to drink category. So pre-mixed cocktails, hard seltzers, if you're in the US, or spiked versions of things. And it's a very interesting space because a lot of the drinks in that space leverage our existing brands. And if they can be provided in a ready-to-drink format, it's potentially very interesting.

So we're currently rolling out Jack Daniels and Coca-Cola pre-mixed. And I think that's going to be very interesting to see how big could this segment be. We don't need more hobbies at the Coke company, but if this could be a material segment, and I think Jack Daniels and Coke will be a leading indicator, it could be very interesting for us. Now, the last question in this area, you are taking action to reduce plastic waste. Now, what are you doing here? And what do you think is achievable here in the longer term? Yeah, so plastic waste, I think, has two components.

And I think with all these kind of systemic issues, it's important to make sure that everyone can restate their objectives and clarify what is the outcome we want and i think here it's we don't want waste in the environment whether that be land or sea and actually preferably with a lower carbon footprint if we state those two objectives what we see is that a circular economy on packaging material can achieve both of the objectives so we we set ourselves a goal called the world without waste. So by 2030, all our packaging will be recyclable, we'll collect a bottle and can for everyone we sell, and we'll use 50% of that back in our own packaging because it often gets downcycled into other uses of recycled PET.

If we can do that, we can create a circular economy in which there is no waste in the land and the sea, and the carbon footprint of recycled material is much less than original. So whether that be PET, aluminium or glass, all those three formats, collected and recycled, have a lower carbon footprint. So it's a very attractive objective. Secondly, this is not some blue sky fantasy. There are already countries in the world which have almost 100% collection. Actually, a number of the Scandinavian countries are already there. There are also countries in the world where over half of our PET bottles are made from recycled plastic.

In fact, a number of countries in Europe, including some of the Scandinavian countries, all the PET bottles that we sell are made from 100% recycled PET. So you have a fully circular economy that basically drives out waste and materially lowers the carbon footprint. So this is a very doable long-term objective. And the technology available to make it happen exists. Of course, it can be made better with innovation. So it's a matter of collective will rather than something new that needs to be invented. James, moving on to leadership, you talk about being an authentic leader,

but how authentic can one be when one runs a big public company where you have to be so careful with how you communicate? I don't think there's a difference between being authentic and at times being reserved or being diplomatic. I probably like that in my personal life anyway so maybe that makes it easier but i think look let me let me put it this way it was probably possible 20 30 40 years ago for you to say one thing to the employees another thing to the customer another thing for the investor etc etc etc another thing to the media but this is a radically more transparent world and and so the first thing if you recognize that the message ultimately needs to be the same to everyone otherwise it's going to go horribly wrong you just start there and and and say okay so that's so there's no point

trying to spin everything everywhere i just need to tell people you know what's the what's what is the what's the point of what is the what's the point of view and it's basically the same message for everyone and then it needs to be grounded in what you believe because there's no nothing more obvious you know when someone is making it up as they go along um and so you know if you're inauthentic people spot it immediately um and so i think it's very important to be grounded in like what do you believe in um and what what strategies what companies what things are you bought into um and then it's much easier to represent it i think it'd be very hard to represent something

you didn't believe in um especially knowing you're gonna have to say the same thing to everyone what's the one thing you would love to say which you're not supposed to say i i there's nothing because you know why would i not say anything no i mean look i i i put it like this to people sometimes people find out we the south is a very um um it uh it is a polite part of the world actually most parts of the world are quite polite and quite indirect. When you ultimately stand back far enough on the world, most parts of the world, you know, shouting and screaming is not a way forward. And so I say to people, look, you need to be able to disagree

without being disagreeable. So, you know, shouting and swearing, it's like that may make you feel better, but it's not productive. And so you know shouting and swearing it's like i may make you feel better but it's not productive and so you need to find ways yeah you don't have to agree with everything else but disagree with that so i think that is the art form here it's not about hiding something uh it's about communicating uh to be to connect rather than just kind of venting how do you disagree in a good way look i don't let's we don't need to whip out the management books but it's the contrast the shouting and screaming so it's like okay you know let's it's a it's a rational debate it's it's generally speaking the

other person on the other side of people wants to feel that they were heard you know without gonna going into mumbo jumbo it's like yeah i like do i understand what you're telling me i hear what you're saying do i understand it exploring why they're saying what they're saying and why they're saying it and then being able to connect say okay i get that here's why i'm saying what i'm saying doesn't mean you're going to agree and you have to be able to cope with the the stress and the tension in the situation uh that there's not an agreement but that doesn't mean you can't mutually understand and respect each other's positions. What's the most difficult part of being a CEO?

There's one part of the CEO that you never find out until you get there. And the way I describe it is, if you think about an organization, let's just use the classic idea of an organizational pyramid. It's a it's a big it's a big pyramid. And most people think, OK, you spend your years working your way up the pyramid and eventually you'll get to the apex of the pyramid. And, you know, in a simple way, everyone in the organization will work for you. And every general manager in the job, general manager job in the pyramid kind of have people working for them, but they see their way to the apex. But when you get to the apex, something different happens. You find out that there's another pyramid, except for it's upside down.

You're at the bottom, at the apex of the upside down pyramid. And above you are zillions of people trying to give you a point of view who want your time. And that doesn't happen to any other person in the organization and whether it's investors media stakeholders everyone has a point of view and directs it at the ceo so you have you are much more fragmented and you're way more stakeholders than anyone else in the organization. And it's kind of a shock when you get there. What's the trick to that? Say no politely. How do you continue to learn?

I like learning. I am probably slowly becoming more old school in the sense that I prefer to read it than to watch a podcast or or a talk but I'm slowly moving with the times but I do have to say I still have a yearning for the tactile nature of getting something from a book and being able to ponder it as you read it rather than being marched along at the pace of of whoever's trying to teach you what what good have you read lately um i've read a few books lately on the on the fiction side i read a book called clara and the sun which is kind of an in the future novel about a real the relationship between robots and us it's it's very

different it's the Japanese British writer on the kind of more businessy side I tend to go for more of the history ones I know the last couple I read well called money for nothing which was a history of the south sea bubble crisis which i recommend people the other one was the the lords of finance um because i you know i'm very intrigued and interested in the fact that ultimately you know the underlying structural changes they always win in the end. Things can go up and down, but the profound structural stuff in the end wins out,

which was ultimately the story of both these books. What motivates you? I'm kind of mission motivated in the sense of I really want to do the thing. I have to feel like i really want to do the thing like i have to feel like i really want to do the thing whatever that thing ends up being whether it be you know i think we've we we for example code we put code back on a growth trajectory uh over the last number of years or i want to learn to be good at x um i normally start off with the perspective how hard can it be and then of course you find out that most things are much harder than you think and you're not very good at them but occasionally

you find some things that you are both good at and you enjoy or they don't have to be the same the two bend it's a bend diagram that doesn't necessarily overlap between enjoyment and good good at but I experiment with lots of different things Jensenensen Huang of Navidia, who we had on recently, also talks about this, how hard can it be? But he also talks about working hard. And he says, well, you know, you have working hard and then you have working insanely hard. Where are you on this scale?

Life is a marathon. You can have periods of working insanely hard but it's hard to live your whole life at that pace um and so you know i think it it the pendulum swings between working hard and working insanely hard um because you can't keep it up uh forever it's life is not a set of sprints uh it's it's a marathon, some people can run a lot faster than other people, but you've got to pace yourself, particularly when you get to be kind of CEO, I think. How do you pace yourself? I'm somewhat European in that sense. It's like there needs to be some boundaries. It's a 24-7 job. There also needs to be some downtime. You need to be able

to walk away. Not always. And if there's a crisis, sometimes you're the only person who can decide, and it's 24-7 literally. But you have to be able to walk away and do something else. What's your advice to young people? We have a lot of young professionals listening to this. My first piece of advice or my main piece of advice that comes with a caveat is find something you really love doing. Sometimes people take jobs because they think it gives them status or money. It gives them status or money. But I feel in the long run, you're likely to rise to the top or be happier doing the thing that gets you out of bed in the morning. If you don't love what you're doing, the chances of getting out of bed early and working insanely hard just go down in my mind. Certainly do over time. Having said that, the caveat is you need to be okay with the

life, the choices that implies. Sometimes people talk about work-life balance. It's not a balance between work and life. Work is part of life. Your life is composed of a whole set of things, and it's 100% bar chart. You can't have more life and more time available. It's a question of distribution. And if you choose a career that has more time or whatever, more money, less money, more status, less status, you have to be comfortable with that choice within your hundred percent bar chart. And what's the most fun piece of your pie chart?

Look, everything can be fun. There can be times, you know times when you do really cool stuff. I mean, like I got a lot out of all the AI marketing recently. But there can be cool stuff on the family side, like spending time with family and friends, seeing them grow and achieve stuff. Or even for yourself, going off and learning something new or trying something new, even if you're terrible at it.

Just trying something new and learning something new or trying something new even if you're terrible at it um just trying something new and learning something new um and the last thing you learned that you thought was cool uh i i've become a part of the sad or not so sad train to trying the swimming in cold water and i'm i found that i i had to google how fast i was and see whether it was any good and i was really slow unbelievably slow like right down at novice and i'm like okay but it was fun well i have to say if you want to come training in cold water you are very welcome up uh to oslo we we have some really good conditions for that i might come in july um just one more thing i'd love to ask you about. So the Coca-Cola recipe, I think it's called Merchandise 7X, closely guarded secret.

Do you know what's in it? If I had a better memory, I would. The formula for Coca-Cola lives in a safe to which only a very few people have access. I went in there once just because I became CEO. I had to go in with someone else, looked at the piece of paper and more or less instantly forgot everything about it when I walked out the room. How many people have access to the safe? That's a secret. And tell me about

the safe. What does it look like? It's very, very big. Well, actually, most of the safe is the concrete wall. And is the recipe the only thing in the safe? No. There was a filing cabinet. It's like the Matrix. There's a filing cabinet with other stuff in it. I didn't look at the other stuff. And if I came to visit, were I allowed inside?

No. That's a simple one. You can look at the outside, but no, you can't go in. Sounds good. Well, you are clearly at the outside but no you can't go in sounds good well you are clearly very good at saying no in a very polite manner so I have to give you that

James it's been tremendous to have you on the show absolutely love it good luck with everything and you know go get them

thank you great nice to see you again fantastic take care bye bye