In Good Company with Nicolai Tangen - Jean-Pascal Tricoire CEO and Chairman of Schneider Electric

Episode Date: March 1, 2023

In this episode, Nicolai Tangen talks to Jean-Pascal Tricoire, CEO and Chairman of Schneider Electric, the world’s largest maker of electrical equipment. The group born out of the industrial revolution is now undergoing a 15-year transformation to a sustainable and digital age. Nicolai and Jean-Pascal discuss this transformation along with geopolitical challenges, doing business in China and India and new trends in digitization and decarbonization. The production team on this episode were PLAN-B’s Nikolai Ovenberg and Niklas Figenschau Johansen. Background research were done by Sigurd Brekke with input from portfolio manager Martin Prozesky.Links:Watch the episode on YouTube: Norges Bank Investment Management - YouTubeWant to learn more about the fund? The fund | Norges Bank Investment Management (nbim.no)Follow Nicolai Tangen on LinkedIn: Nicolai Tangen | LinkedInFollow NBIM on LinkedIn: Norges Bank Investment Management: Administrator for bedriftsside | LinkedInFollow NBIM on Instagram: Explore Norges Bank Investment Management on Instagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, everyone, and welcome to our podcast in good company. I'm Nikolaj Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Submarine Wealth Fund. In this podcast, I talk to the leaders of some of the largest companies we are invested in so that you can learn what we own and also meet these impressive leaders. Today, I'm speaking to Jean-Pascal Tricouard, the CEO and chairman of Schneider Electric. Schneider was established 186 years ago and is now the frontrunner in the transformation to a sustainable and digital age. They are truly a global company with 128,000 employees in 100 countries. We own over 2% of Schneider, translating into almost 20 billion kroner or 2 billion US dollars.

Jean-Pascal also speaks four languages, including Mandarin. He's a super interesting guy, one of the most impressive CEOs in Europe. Stay tuned. So, Jean-Pascal, you were once a humble farmer boy from rural France, and now you have made Schneider Electric into the global leader in digital transformation and taking the company to every corner of the globe. So did you always wanted to explore the world? Yes, I did. But I still like my origins in rural France. I hope I keep from that a sense of community, some common sense being grounded, really.

And I still have a strong passion for nature and sustainability and this has been even reinforced by my passion sport which is whitewater kayaking but then you know I wanted to discover the world and after 20 years I went to discover the world and I think I've caught up quite a lot since then because I've been probably traveling to more than 100 countries. Is there something French about being an explorer? The funny thing is that every time I go to the top of some kind of mountain, there is always some kind of French dude standing there already. Right. That's coming from Viking, I guess, in terms of history. And you know what? In my part of France, there was a camp of people coming to visit us from your part of the world. So I don't know.

It's probably a reciprocation. Why is it important for a CEO to be grounded? I think it's the most important thing. We live in a very, very complicated environment. We live with ever-changing conditions. And you need to have a strong compass, a strong direction. And at the same time, in front of all the input that you receive from the outside, from the inside, keep your own sense of direction.

And from that, being grounded is really important. When I read the interviews with you, you talk about your MBA as leading to some kind of inner revolution in you. What happened? It was a shock. I was coming from an environment where nobody was in business, right? Except for me. In one year, I came to discover a new world, a world that I didn't know.

And I kept that passion for business and connecting points on dots together. And what specifically did you learn? Well, a bit of everything, right? International affairs, and I've kept traveling since then. Marketing, finance, and managing people, leading people. And did I learn everything from the MBNO?

But those were the first seeds that allowed me to accelerate and get better or the foundation, if you will, on which I build the next steps. Moving on to Schneider. So most people use or benefit from your products every day, but they're not really aware of it probably. So tell us, what does Schneider do?

Well, we do technology. And we do technology to be the partner of our customers in sustainability. So name it, smart homes, smart buildings, smart cities, smart grids. And we build the largest and the most efficient data centers in the world. So this is what we do. And we've based the whole equation of achieving more while using less of the resources on two major disruptions. One is digital applied to everything around us.

And the second one is electrification, because electrification is the only way to decarbonize. And when I looked at our purpose and our mission, we are working on two contradictory directions. The first one is to make sure that everybody on Earth has access to energy, and possibly clean energy. And we still have 1 billion people who don't have access to energy and possibly clean energy. And you still have 1 billion people who don't have access to energy

because energy is your passport to a decent life. And on the other side, because we are facing climate change and massive disruption in the climate of the planet, making sure that we are the partner of our customers to net zero. So cut carbon emissions and things. And when you put the two things together, you have a very consistent mission, which

is to reconcile progress on sustainability for all everywhere on Earth. This is what we do at Schneider. But we are with you in all parts of your life. At home, you're building, manufacturing, when you travel in cities and so on. You don't see us, but we power on digitized stuff, everything around you at any moment in your life. When did you realize that this was the way to go?

Well, I've been working 36 years in the company, but when I was lending the key at the top of the company, which is roughly 20 years ago, I was coming from a long stint in emerging countries. The China of the 90s, Africa afterwards, and then being in charge of all emerging countries at Schneider. emerging countries at Schneider. And when you live in those countries, you really realize in real life that having access to a safe, affordable energy is your passport to a decent life. And on the top of it, having access to digital, which is powered by energy, is also your access to education on economic inclusion. And when you live in the Beijing of the 90s or in Johannesburg, like it happened to me, you realize also that the model of energy that we had at that time,

which was all based on fossil, was going to a deadlock in terms of pollution, in terms of pressure, in terms of volatility of prices. And the strong conviction with my team was coming from the same sort of origins in terms of carrier, that we had to take the problem in a different manner and really focus on efficiency. Another thing you did in 2011, I believe you and part of the management team moved to Hong Kong.

Now, what was the thinking behind that? We, of course, saw that the world was global and the world is global and the world will be global. But as more geographies are acceding to prosperity, the cultures of each of those geographies are re-emerging stronger. In a global world, you see more divergence of needs, standards, culture, ways of doing things.

So I was convinced from very early on that we would have to be global, but we would have even more important to be local and to be strongly local. And to do that, there is only one way is to be close to the field and close to the largest pools of talents. And you can't achieve that if you are a centralized company. So what we did at that time is to blow up the headquarter, scatter our people into our main geographies, close to the largest markets, close to the largest pools of talents, and start working as a peer-to-peer network of executives around the world. And that worked for us. That really worked for us because we grew faster and we grew into places which are uncomfortable for others,

like emerging countries, at a much faster pace. And there are multiple advantages. It makes us, I said it, faster. We have more speed in developing products. That makes us much more local, much more adaptable. That creates much more respect between the different parts of the world. People understand each other's difference. There is not one center that

dominates everything. It installs a true meritocracy and means anybody in any place of the world can access to the highest positions in the company. And finally, it makes us flexible. When the COVID hit the world, we were already used to work in a completely virtual way for now 10 years. So there was no blip. There was no transition that allows us to move much faster in moving the responsibility. What are the challenges of having a local approach as a global company? You still have to keep some global threat that gives you that advantage of scale. that gives you that advantage of scale.

So it's a system which is loosely connected, but strongly articulated with strong points of authority on some parts of the technology or the volumes or the manufacturing that you want to be global. But all in all, it's a massive empowerment to the local R&D, to the local ecosystem of the company, so that we can be local on the local market and go as fast as the local players. Does it mean that you are less hit by the reversal of the globalization

that we are seeing now? I still believe that the world will remain global because whatever we are seeing now? I still believe that the world will remain global because whatever we are told, there is no absolute sovereignty on what any region does. We are very interdependent from each other. But the fact that there will be more that bifurcation of needs, expectations, ways of doing by region is obvious. And the only way to adapt to this in real time, according to me, is to be very local and to empower your local team. If we spend a bit of time in Asia, how do you see the reopening of China,

the impact on the economy, inflation and so on? Well, it's going to be big. It's a good thing. I think the first big benefit, which has nothing economic, that people will be able to speak to each other again, and that will probably diminish some of the misunderstandings.

But otherwise, China is a huge economy and completely intertwined with the rest of the world. So it's really good thing that China reopens. I see a lot of things. Many are completely intertwined with the rest of the world. So it's really good things that China reopens. I see a lot of things. I'm sure that the authorities have at heart to relaunch the economy. I see the consumer in China really eager to spend again and to go out again and to go out of China to visit the world

so that we'll have multiple impacts. And the best thing here is to have more interaction between each of our companies and our suppliers and customers again. So I see a positive impact on the world economy, probably impacting us from H2 this year. It's going to take a little bit of time for people to go back on the road and to release some of the blocking points that are existing today. But that's all good news. Do you think it will drive inflation? Well, actually, China has driven down inflation over the past 20 years for the rest of the world

at a massive scale. it will drive up the demand on some components, which were already stretched, certainly on some raw material, as we go deeper into the year and we go into 2024. So there will be balancing effects there. We recently had Nandan Nilekani, the chairman of Infosys, on the podcast, and he was very enthusiastic, of course, about the outlook for India. Now, how do you see business in India? So we are very positive, right?

India has become now our third largest business in the world. First one is the US, second one is China, third one is India. When I look at India, a huge population, very young, very eager to do things, to be entrepreneurial. And when you look at our business, India is one of the largest needs for electrification. You still have 200 million people who don't have access to electricity. The network is being rebuilt, improved, retrofitted. Network is being rebuilt, improved, retrofitted, but India has the incredible chance to be able to make it on a clean sheet of paper, on leapfrog what has been done in other countries to move to the new world of electricity, that electricity 4.0, which is going to be more decarbonized, more decentralized.

We at Schneider combine electrification with digitization on which other country is better gifted in digitization to bring us into the episode two of the Internet, which is the Internet of Things coupled with big data, coupled with artificial intelligence. So we have actually 35,000 people in India, which makes it our biggest country in terms of number of associates and people. And we see a lot of potential to innovate from India. We see also India as a base for global R&D. It's our largest center for R&D and also for manufacturing.

But the needs are immense. And there is the advantage of the late start of being able to design things and do things in a different manner. And what's the main difference in the way you do business in India versus China? Everything is different. I would say two country continents,

almost 40% of the world population. So our largest neighbors for anybody in the world and all of the systems are different. Both systems do work. The needs are different. The stage of development is different. The strong and weak points are different.

And just to give you a very practical example, 70% of what we sell in India are products which have been designed for India. So to tell you how we go deep, we need to go deep into the adaptation to the specificities of the country. Being a global business, what are the geopolitical risks you are most worried about for the moment? Look, I would say beyond running a business,

I really think we've seen, I really observe, we've seen in the past five or six years a deterioration of geopolitics. And we already see the issues that it bears on the citizens of every country, inflation, disturbances in the supply chains, difficulty in many sectors. So I just believe we have to accept that the world will be fundamentally different with more blocks emerging. And that's a good thing for the world because we want more of the world will be fundamentally different with more blocks emerging,

and that's a good thing for the world because we want more of the world population to get access to the middle class status and to develop fast. And to do that, we're going to have to accept those difference of systems, of way of doing business, of looking at societies even.

So I really believe that we experience with the war in Russia how disturbing it is to be suddenly cut from that country, from Russia. More bifurcation from larger countries would have tremendous implications and tremendous consequences, which would impact all of our countries. So time to realize that we are all interdependent. Of course, trade, technology, IP have to be balanced between blocks. But time also to come back to more collaboration as we exit from the COVID on two plus years of isolation from each other. Is the cheap war hitting you, i.e. the situation in the semiconductor market? Yeah, of course.

And how is it impacting you? Well, take Schneider, right? 20 years ago, almost nothing electronic in our company. Today, we've multiplied our size by four. Half of what we do is digital. So we are one of the examples of the accelerated digitization of the world. Everything we do is now incorporating electronics. Chips are somewhere one of the fundamentals of what we do to digitize homes,

buildings, cities, manufacturing, data centers. So we are working very closely with semiconductor manufacturers as this supply has become very stretched over the past two years to really align our innovation capabilities, our production capacity, and our plans for the future. And I would say that what struck me in the past two years is how close we've become, right? Because we depend so much on them to develop our technologies,

and they depend so much on what we see on the market to develop properly their platforms. So a much stronger and much closer partnership between the semiconductor specialists at several levels, right, from the foundries to the designers of chips, on what we do as we are a world leader in IoT. Moving on to America, what do you think will be the impact

of the Inflation Reduction Act? Do you think it will have big consequences for you? It's big. It's an acceleration of the move to a green economy by many aspects. We can participate to all parts of it. And we have, remember, the US is our first market. We are very global.

We produce locally. We design locally. And it's actually a good thing because it's actually an acceleration which transitioned from brown OPEX paying for a system which is actually obsolescent in terms of energy, in terms of sustainability, to green capex, to accelerate the transition to systems, processes, and ways of doing, which are actually much closer to zero carbon. And I wish you see more of that happening in the world where governments are converting from paying for the overcost of brown sources of energy,

and actually invest in transition in us to a world which is more zero carbon based on clean electrification, based on efficiency. So accelerating the transition is absolutely crucial today. When you take a deeper look on what is happening today, I'm optimistic for one reason. It's the first time in the past 20 years that the aspiration to be net zero, the great aspiration to be more sustainable, is actually completely aligned with the economic return on investments. because the availability of energy in some parts of the world, like Europe, when you invest in efficiency and electrification today, the return on investment, the time to get it back financially,

has been divided by two or three. So perfect alignment between the aspiration to net zero on the economic return today. But more so in America than in Europe? I think more so in America than in Europe? I think more so in Europe than in America, because Europe is at the center of this energy crisis. By energy costs, by energy shortages, potentially, Europe has actually a burning platform today to affect or realize that energy transition. Should Europe launch a similar act? I think so.

Converting, believe in the past year, from what I hear or gather, Europe has invested 600 billion euros to mitigate the costs vis-à-vis the consumer, helping the consumers to pay their gas and oil bill. And frankly, there was no choice. But we could invest as soon as possible a part of this to transition people outside of the effects of those energy increases.

Now, the world is changing very fast through digitization and connectivity and so on. What do you expect the trends to be going forward? It's huge. It's a huge inflection point, right? We've been used to a world in our industry which was 20% electrical, right? You look forward, fast forward 30 years, it's going to be twice to three times more electrical. Your car will be electric. Your building, of course, will be completely electric.

Your home will be completely electric. On the large part of the energy that you consume electric, you will produce it also from your roof, from a microgrid at the bottom of your building or industry. And that is going to happen in the next 30 years. That's a very short time. The world has been at 20% of electricity in the energy mix for a long time. So it's a huge displacement of things. Now, if you look at the other part of our equation, digitization for efficiency, we have just entered the episode two of the internet. The episode one was connecting people to people and changing the way we live and work.

And it took 20 years to go from the first connection to Internet to really changing the way we do things through Uber, for instance, Facebook and so on. 10 to 20 years. We just entered into the first phase of this episode two, which is connecting people to machines and machines to machines. At a time where you have this convergence of connectivity like 5G, you've got big data thanks to the cloud. You've got AI possibilities exploding. And this will change the way we live with our cities, homes, buildings, enterprises

a lot as we go forward. What are the kind of things that we will see in 10 years time, which we are not seeing now? Everything connected. Why would it be that in your buildings, if you run a park of buildings, that you wouldn't have a view of everything happening, that you wouldn't have a digital twin of your principal buildings where you can remote control a lot of the things which are happening, where you can get a lot lot of the things which are happening, where you

can get a lot of efficiency in the operations, but also in the way you design and build the buildings, where you can integrate in real time every of the resources you are consuming and then source the best one, which is the greenest, the cheapest in real time. You're going to see that all the time. Of course, many of the things around you will be completely electrical, which will change a lot the way in real time. You're going to see that all the time. Of course, many of the things around you will be completely electrical, which will change a lot the way you do things. But imagine if all of us

participate to the resolution to climate change and to energy transition. Most of our houses are net zero. Most of our buildings are net zero. Then you reduce the pressure on the global grid to a very high level, and everybody is made responsible.

My experience is, when people have access to data, when people know, they actually do much better. They are willing to participate. The biggest problem today is that energy has been a sort of black box, where people didn't know where it was going, what was done with it and so on. Now, with the pressure due to the energy crisis, every CEO and every decider has to really focus. How is artificial intelligence going to play in here? Everywhere. So it's going to optimize the way your heating system is working. It's going to detect that people are not in this place. It's going to detect that if you don't have a ship in the port, you have to

slow down the drilling in a mine and optimize our process and make sure that the train which is working in between doesn't run too many times a day because at that time it's not needed. All of this will be optimized in real time. But think about the chain of energy. Energy is 80% of carbon emission, therefore the biggest problem for climate change. It's the first time in history that everything will be connected from the plug of everything in your place, building or homes, to the plant. our homes to the plant.

So you can now pilot everything, charging your car, eating your water, starting your washing machine at the right time when energy is cheap and green. That will make also that when everybody goes to the office and start to put the plug

of their car in the charger, we don't do it at the same time because that would probably explode the building and we can really help it at the same time because that would probably explode the building and we can really help each other. That will allow the smart grid to call on those loads to get some electricity when there is a peak of demand and kind of smoothen or put the demand on the right level.

So many, many things will change. And more so, it's going to be the kind of like you do for your health, the monitor of what you do in carbon and energy. You're going to know that if you do this, you're going to tell you in real time that it's not what you should be doing and the way to do it

differently. So AI is at the core of what we do today. It's not like in 10 years. We already do it. But it's going to be the great optimizer between all the elements because energy is a shared good. Somebody produces, somebody consumes, and we didn't have any link

except a monthly bill before. Now that link is absolute real-time. You can gamify it. You can really incite people to do better. So, big changes. You can really incite people to do better. So, big changes. We've spoken a bit about semiconductors.

Now, we had Lisa Su, the CEO of AMD, on the podcast a while back. And she talked about the importance of running towards problems. And I believe that's exactly what you did in your early years at Schneider. Tell us about it. I say that in the way I assess people. I like people who have chosen difficult missions, seeing that the other one we are not... The majority of people start by bragging about, I run that much of turnover and I manage so many people. It's very mainstream.

But people who make a difference are people who are able to drive inflection points. And they would have failed. So I really, I go with Lisa on two things. First, I believe it's an important part of our culture to be very demanding and to be never satisfied. In a world that tends to be too easily self-congratulatory, right? Going straight to compliments, but without being demanding enough. And I believe that good is never good enough. We can always do better. And the second point is, yes, it's better to face the problems because they run in your face. Because at least you get some preparation. So what somebody was describing as a healthy paranoia, which I might like because paranoia is a problem.

But being always asking questions, especially on the things which seem to be doing well, is an healthy discipline. Even if people are a little bit tired of you, but asking those questions relentlessly is something really important for the company. How does your family cope with you? Well, you should interview them. them. We found a balance, but I would have never been able to do that without the support, the understanding, and the patience of my family and especially my wife. But I've got three kids and they've not seen me a lot, probably much less than many other kids, but they've benefited from some of my experiences. We discuss a lot about business and the world and so on. And they've lived on several continents, which has been a chance for them.

Why is it so difficult to get people to think long-term? Because the funny thing is that when you are 20 and you have the whole life in front of you, you are in a hurry. And then when you turn 50 or 60 and you're about to die, you suddenly become very long-term. Why is that? I just hope that when you are 50 or 60, you are not about to die. Just a personal wish.

You are closer. But I don't think so. I think from the beginning, you can meet people who have that knack for trying to think beyond. You have people who never leave school. They go for marks. It's always short term. And you have people who try to, and it's a growing number of people,

a majority of people, try to get a sense of what they are doing and what they could be doing next. You don't have too many people able to articulate this, and those are the jewels and the gems that you want to be surrounded with to articulate it in a clear manner. I see most of the people are looking for both. I mean, performance, because we like to win, and impact,

because we like to have a role in transforming the societies and the world around us. So I wouldn't link that to age. I would link that to the way people are and the way people develop. And being in an environment, which I hope Schneider is, which is forcing that permanent effort to look forward, is really also important. And you were asking me one of the things which I've learned or developed as I was going forward.

The multiplication of crises makes me believe, or really firmly believe, that you have to be very stubborn strategically. But at the same time, you have to be even more agile tactically. at the same time, you have to be even more agile tactically. Keep the goalposts of where you want to go, but you know that nowhere will unfold as forecasted. So you're going to have then to move around that goalpost, but never deviate from the long-term direction, but at the same time, be agile to take the bends and turns to adapt to the situation.

What's the biggest challenge in terms of getting into that mindset? The biggest challenge is that the more the world is uncertain, the more stakeholders are asking you for precise forecasts and precise, which is collective madness. Actually, the more the world is becoming uncertain, the more you have to be sure of your midterm destination, and you have to cultivate your capability to adapt to all the bumps in the road. And there are many bumps, and sometimes those bumps are massive opportunities.

But look at the past three years, okay? We didn't see the COVID. We didn't see such a fast recovery. We didn't see the supply chain issues that happened. We didn't see such a fast recovery. We didn't see the supply chain issues that happened. We didn't see the war in Russia, on Ukraine. We didn't see all of this. So we had to be very determined about what we wanted to do, but at the same time be able to move very fast.

Your comment on speed, I really share your belief in speed. And I think it's interesting. If you answer an email after one minute, it can be one sentence. If you answer after three hours, it needs to be a paragraph. And if you answer after three days, it needs to be a whole page. So you save a lot of time by being fast, no? Yeah, that's an encouragement to be lazy, right? To be fast.

Look, probably this is the only place the males where i would exclude that i i am not sure that we are fast to answer nails but sometimes you receive so many of them that it's good to pause on them i'm more i'm more saying that when companies grow on develop they tend to be more micromanaging more centralized than than before, because people want to have one size fits all. There is a corporate of which role is to make sure it's a company, that everything is aligned. While the reality, the microeconomy of those companies is living in a region, in a country, in a business, which goes very fast.

If you are able to bring together that capability of being very global and at the same time to be very fast, then you have an unbeatable combination. How do you keep informed? What do you read? I read. I read the press. But probably my biggest source of information is people.

Trying to go beyond what everything reads, but keeping my contact points in many geographies, in many businesses, in other companies, on comparing notes, exchanging, on getting... Is it right that you don't have an office? Yes. Yeah, I don't have a fixed office, right? I am in those flex spaces in the world where we are,

or very often in more absurd places, in hotels and so on. What does that do with your information flow, you think? Well, I always think it's better to get information from the field than getting them from a report or those kind of things. Of course, I'm highly considering what comes in a structured way from my financial direction, marketing direction, strategy direction and so on. But there is nothing that beats being with a customer in front of a machine, in front of a process,

in front of a green building, trying to understand what are the friction points or the frustrations. My people do that every day. But sometimes getting deeper, because what I do gives me access probably to a higher level in the company, on getting a first-level understanding of what's happening is much more precious than anything you read. Same thing in meeting people. People can tell how they leave the company,

deep into the company. I come from there. And I still remember one of my obsessions over the past 20 years has been to maintain a very flat company because I knew when I was in that same company, which was very deep, our life was very different in the depths of it, in what was expressed. So that permanent contact is really important. You also mentioned travels as an inspiration. What's your favorite place to travel? The place where I've never been before. That's how

I would define the most interesting place. Not so many places left, huh? There are plenty of spaces, plenty of places to go to but i've i've for the first 23 years of my life i was in that farming environment no money so couldn't travel took my first plane when i was 23 um i've caught up right i've seriously caught up i've been to more than 100 countries and as a masochistic person, when I stopped traveling for business, my family and me go to places that are difficult to reach to understand what is the life of people in those places.

And I think you learn so much, right? You also speak a lot of languages. How is that helping you? Well, I speak some of them, but always with a French accent, which is a pain for my people speaking with me. But yeah, it helps you. I lived in different countries. So I lived five years in Italy and I speak Italian.

I lived in China in the 90s. At that time, it was difficult to find people who are speaking English or I speak a broken Chinese, but enough to be able to handle my way on communicate. My wife's Dutch and I'm still learning English. But of course it helps you to understand that language is an interesting Of course, it helps you to understand language is an interesting element that allows you to go much deeper in the culture because language structures, also part of the culture and expression, say so much about culture.

So if you are able to crack a little bit of that and make it a personal interest, then you get much deeper into cultures. What kind of legacy do you want to leave behind? Look, the only legacy is to have a company well positioned, right? A company that has a real purpose, a real utility to society, and where people are proud utility to society and where people are proud and happy to operate and free enough to make an impact and to innovate. That's my only legacy.

I, you know, Schneider was created in 1836. I was not the founder of the company, but, of course, but I spent more than 35 years in the company, a long time at the bottom of it. I had the chance to be selected to drive its transformation to a new point. And I just want the team that will take over at a point in time to do it on a very solid foundation and to be in a good position to keep going with the journey. Well, Jean-Pascal, both Schneider and you personally come extremely highly recommended from everybody I speak to, including our portfolio managers at Norges Bank Investment Management. And I can easily see why that's the case. So

big thank you for taking the time. It's been a real pleasure having you on. Thank you very much, Nicolasolai, for having me. I'm looking forward to seeing you soon again. I'm probably in person.