In Good Company with Nicolai Tangen - Swiss Re CEO: The Business of Reinsurance, Climate Impact and Risk Prevention

Episode Date: March 11, 2026

Who insures the insurers? In this episode, Nicolai Tangen talks with Andreas Berger, CEO of Swiss Re, about how reinsurance works and why it matters. They discuss natural disasters, climate risk, and why losses are rising as more people and assets move into high-risk areas. Berger explains how Swiss Re uses data and technology to understand risk, prevent damage, and decide what can — and cannot — be insured. They also touch on cyber risk, AI, leadership, and how to make decisions in an uncertain world.In Good Company is hosted by Nicolai Tangen, CEO of Norges Bank Investment Management. New full episodes every Wednesday, and don't miss our Highlight episodes every Friday.  The production team for this episode includes Isabelle Karlsson and PLAN-B's Niklas Figenschau Johansen, Sebastian Langvik-Hansen and Pål Huuse. Background research was conducted by Oscar Hjelde. Watch the episode on YouTube: Norges Bank Investment Management - YouTubeWant to learn more about the fund? The fund | Norges Bank Investment Management (nbim.no)Follow Nicolai Tangen on LinkedIn: Nicolai Tangen | LinkedInFollow NBIM on LinkedIn: Norges Bank Investment Management: Administrator for bedriftsside | LinkedInFollow NBIM on Instagram: Explore Norges Bank Investment Management on Instagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi everybody and welcome to In Good Company. I'm Nicola Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Southern Wealth Fund and today we are in a really good company. We are here with Andreas Berger who is the CEO of Sri Sri Sri. Now, Srisree is a very interesting company. They basically insure insurance companies. We own 1.6% of the company or 800 million US dollars. One welcome, Andreas. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. So let's start with the simplest. thing here. What does a reinsurance company do? Well, you already said it. We are the insurers of the insurance companies. Some refer to it as the central bank of the insurance industry. Technically not 100%

correct. So we are giving financial protection to insurance companies. So why do insurance companies need to insure themselves? Insurance companies sit in a national or maybe also international context, but they need to protect the balance sheet. And they benefit from our diversification that happens at global level. So we've got global diversification because risks are not correlated. But if you look at a standalone basis, then obviously the insurance companies need more capital for this.

So diversification helps. Do you have to have a special kind of psyche to work with only risks and potential negative outcomes? No, but I think the purpose, in particular also reinsurance, Our purposes, we make the world more resilient. That resonates for people, in particular for me who grew up in so many parts of the world, and I saw risks firsthand, coup d'etas, revolutions, other kinds of risks.

And I started to think, what does that do? What does that do to people? What impact does it have? When you switch on the TV, everything that happens, how do societies deal with this? So I developed an interest in all of this. Andreas, can we talk about the different types of risks that you insure? How do you split it? Yeah.

We've focused on three business units. One is life and health reinsurance. So our insurance companies, life and health insurance companies are our clients. Property and casualty, reinsurance company. That's where the insurance companies sell property casualty, homeowners insurance, promoter insurance, etc. Then we have a third unit that's called Corporate Solutions. There we insure corporates, large corporates.

who also have their own insurance companies captives. So these are the three units. And they have a very nice diversification benefit for the group. Life insurance is not correlated to PNC reinsurance. And within PNC reinsurance, the two units are not directly correlated because corporate solutions reinsurers externally. I'll give you an example. Natural catastrophes.

The capital return on a standalone basis for natural catastrophes is 8%. If you look at a group level, it increases to 40%. So that's the diversification benefit that I'm talking about. Let's start with natural catastrophes because we read about them in the paper every day. So what are the main catastrophes that you injure against? We call it primary and secondary perils. Primary perils are earthquakes, for instance, hurricanes. Secondary perils are more the frequency perils.

perils, floods, wildfires, you know, the likes. Those are secondary perils. In the last six years, consecutive years, the losses, the insured losses exceeded 100 billion. So that's about an increase of 5 to 7 percent per year. So we see really that the frequency increases but also the severity. I think that's something to address. In 2024, for instance, we had economic losses. those are all losses, not only the insured economic losses of 318 billion, and 137 billion were insured.

Why do we have more and more natural catastrophes? People refer always to climate. That's one aspect, that complicates things, but the main aspect is population growth. Population growth and with the population growth comes increased assets, cars, houses, etc. And unfortunately, always in the nicest areas, and some of the nicest areas, areas are very, very much natural catastrophe areas. So that is the main reason. If you split the two and we do climate first and then we do what the population growth.

So what is the climate impact, you think, on catastrophes? So the primary reason is really population growth. I must say that because climate impact, we always had that. So that's one thing to think about. But the climate aspect is actually adding to it, and you can see it in water, sea level arising, or temperature rising. So what we do is we project into the future. We've got a data platform where you can create basically your digital twin of,

for instance, an air corporate company. And their assets, we stress test them with all the vents, hurricanes, etc. And then we also do projections according to temperature-wise. We use scientific models. and that informs basically gives you insight, informs the severity or the resilience management in corporates but insurance companies, but also in public entities.

Those are the three customer groups that we service. I listened to some over your podcast and in your firm you talk about severe convection storms. The way I understand it, and these convection storms are difficult to predict because they are very fast, right? And localized. Yes, they're difficult to predict,

But with our data platform and with the models that we then use, with the projections, we can anticipate some of it, yes. But if not, there's always a way to mitigate and to prevent actions to mitigate, for instance, for floods, to build dikes, etc. You can see that, you know, $1 you spend on the mitigation, saves you $10 for rebuilding after the event. So that's a critical aspect in our business as well, not just to risk transfer to ensure and re-insure, but also to help people prevent and mitigate. What about things like wildfires? Same story. Wildfires in particular in California, it's a known fact. It's a known fact. So again here you saw population growth in exactly those exposed areas. And there's a lot that can be done to mitigate, maybe even prevent land use.

building codes, right use of building materials. And you could see in the pictures also for the wildfires that happened in California in in 2025 in January. You could see literally everything that burned down and then there were some houses that were not really impacted. So that is down to thinking about how do I build in order to mitigate something that I already know can happen. So it's not an unforeseen event. When we look at the data and we look at the global warming and so on, I'm a bit surprised

you are not emphasizing more deterioration in the climate situation. No, I think Swiss Re was very vocal about this. But what I thought would be best to do now is to get from this meta level, the macro level. I always call it from morality to matter reality. to translate what we know from science into real life. That's why we need data. We need to connect basically the scientific findings with real life data from private households, public entities like municipalities,

but also for corporates, and combine both. Okay, so we have floods, we've got fires, we've got storms, so that's kind of the events. But then also more people want to live where these kind of things are happening. So more people in Texas, we've got more solar panels on our roofs, all these kind of things happening, right? So how big is that effect? No, I think the debate is now going really into concrete levels, in particular at state level, because it is a state problem and not really a federal problem. The federal level can help.

But what we do also with state levels, Texas is a very good example. we create exactly this data transparency. We ask them, give us your data, your assets. We do this also in Australia, for instance. In New Zealand, concrete levels of municipalities where we say, let's gather the assets, data, put them really as a digital twin on their platform, and then let's see what happens in Texas.

Heat waves, drought, floods, heavy precipitation, etc. You could really nail it down to a very singular level because it's the let-long that we address, you know. We just need the address, add a bit of information, and then the digital twin is complete. That's not a complicated thing and the data is very often not really readily available. So we try to help people to organize data also in a more effective way.

What are the kind of things that you cannot insure anymore because of weather-related risks? I'm thinking about housing in California and other places because of flood and so on. Just how does this work? It's not an insurability problem. It's actually more than an affordability problem if we don't take care of loss prevention. I think that's the important thing. We need to not only provide a balance sheet for risk transfer where people benefit from our diversification, but also we need to help people make use of our data, data analytics.

We collected data for now 162 years. We're a data company. And now with modern technology where we build data models, et cetera, we can make our models and natural catastrophe models readily available and then give insights how to prevent, how to reduce actually the levels of threat. That increases resilience. It's before you even think about insurance.

So we need to refocus on the concept of ownership of risk. You cannot shift the burden when you build a house somewhere. That's your house. So you need to be informed about the geological situation, what can happen in this area. And this information is available. So that is our approach to say understanding, awareness creation, plus quantification, step one.

Step two is actually mitigation prevention. And step three is then risk financing. One way is actually risk transfer, insurance or reinsurance then. Do you think we'll see more cases where the government actually needs to own the risk? Yeah, in some areas the problem is too big to be solved by one party. That's why we promote these public-private partnership models. And what are examples of these? Examples are actually in areas where we say land use needs to be reassessed.

Should people move into certain areas, where it's almost predictable that catastrophes will happen. And there are good examples where New Zealand, for instance, has decided to relocate people, communities. That's a tough decision. But if you have the data and a common understanding, that's a good way to address it. We have in the UK public-private partnerships

to address basically the flood problem. So the communities come together, the public entities come together and the insurance sector come together. There are investments into dikes, etc. And then we can provide capacity. Otherwise, insurance would be not affordable anymore. Are there many places where you think, well, you know what, we've got enough risk here. We don't want to take on more risk. Like New York, how much risk would a company like yours have in New York if you add up

all the real estate, all the kind of things you have there? I think we have a capacity allocation model. First of all, we allocate capital. And then the next level is, obviously, in our chief underwriting committee, we allocate the capacity to the different types of products or risks, lines of businesses, we call them. And obviously, we need to see that we're not overexposed. We do accumulation controls.

And obviously, that informs the level of capacity that we deploy to individual risks. And then we deploy actually budgets to certain territories, but also to certain lines of businesses then. So that was the PNC, but you also have other parts of the business. Yes, we've got the PNC reinsurance business, then obviously the corporate business. That's the second part. And then the third part is the life and health reinsurance business. I think maybe let's talk about the corporate business first.

Because you were running that before. I was running that before. That is basically... And that had some problems in the past, which you came in and faced. Yes, because equally like the P&C reinsurance business, it's also a volatile business. And again, you need to see what diversification do you have in your portfolio, which risks do you onboard, take on your balance sheet, and how do you want to grow in this type of business? So what kind of risks do you have in that part of the business? We ensure basically the full range.

We insure corporates for their assets, for their liabilities, for transportation, also the aviation risks, and sometimes we share it also with the reinsurance unit. So corporates, large corporates, and upper middle market corporates are our customer base. We're not in the retail business. So we are typically a B2B, business to business, where you have professional buying centers working together. So we provide also structured solutions, risk financing solutions for captive insurance companies that are owned by corporates. And here again, our data models are being used and our capacity are being used. And we provide worldwide cover for international insurance programs,

we call them, you know, where corporates steer their risk globally for all assets in the world centrally and they need a partner who can actually respond to the needs on the service side. but also helped to structure it. It's a complex business. And what was the problem here in the past? The problem was that we had outsized positions in certain type of areas, for instance, in U.S. liability. And the large corporate risk space in the U.S. liability was very exposed to a lot of losses. And that is something where we were overexposed. More than 50% of our business was in the U.S. and 90% of all liability business was also in the US.

So we had a concentration there and that was hurting us. So then they brought you in to fix it and what did you do? We basically reset this business unit. We said, what are we talking about? Who is actually the customer and what do they actually need from us? Where do we have differentiating assets that we can deploy to the customer where the customer also values Swiss Re assets? So risk insights, leading programs, lead capabilities.

You need to have the right risk engineers, the right underwriters who can do that, and also the right claims handers who can do that. And today we have a very clear proposition. We're not everything to everyone. We focus on a specific customer segment. We have reduced the long-tail business and have now a very healthy book of non-correlated lines of businesses. When the property cycles go down, we definitely have credit insurity that was counter-cyclical

that helped us actually produce our results. But also if you look at the customer feedback, they value what Swiss Re-Stance side, equally also on the re-insurance side. We're one of the few late entrances in a small group of insurance companies. It's the international insurance program space, but it's also alternative risk. transfer where you look at finding alternative risk financing structures for corporates, complex structures, not everybody can do that. So if you look at numbers in this space, you probably deal with eight to ten competitors

in the international program space. And then if you go into normal placement, there you deal with hundreds or more competitors. So that differentiation helped us to manage basically also the outcome. Your last part is the life side. How does the new types of anti-obesity drugs impact this division? Yeah, so we have the leading life and health reinsurance company in the world and we have something that's called Life Guide. There we collect all the information that we make available to

underwriters for prime insurance companies about certain type of diseases, it's almost like a medical handbook. With AI, we add AI basically and we augment the offering on this lifeguide side. So obesity and all the specific aspects of it obviously are entered into our model and into our assumptions obviously. And we had this debate around COVID. You know, what? was the reason, the causality for these spikes, spikes that we could see after the core event of COVID, so the late reporting of claims. And we had in, I think it was in 2023, in Q3, if I remember correctly, we had a spike coming through from the US. And we were scratching eyes and we said, why is this happening in the US, in particular in the age group,

of middle-aged people. Because in all OECD countries, you didn't see that spike. And that causality needed to be understood. People asked, is this obesity? Is this use of drugs? Is this cancer? Because interestingly, it went through all social groups. So there's a lot of research that's happening there.

Not all answers have been found. But I think that's something really when we need to do. very deep because we're exposing our balance sheets and we need to put, you know, the expectations into our costing into our pricing ultimately also. And if you don't get it right, you expose yourself for a time period of 30, 40, sometimes 50 years. That's a duration of those contracts. That's why that granularity of understanding is very important. What are some of the new issues that you need to think about in terms of whether you can insure them or not? So how does insurance work? You need data.

You need data and you need to start to model. You need to understand the data. Let's take one risk where cyber, as an example, it is a common event. But if you go out and ask people, tell me what your worst case scenario is, then you get a lot of answers. Also the deep understanding of the cyber exposures is not good enough yet. Can we fully ensure against cyber? we with our sovereign wealth fund come to an insurance company and totally insuring and cyber

so that if somebody stole our money we would get it back from you. Yeah, it's really, it starts with the understanding of the exposure and that is something that way we have to work together and that's the most critical piece. Why don't you get so many so high limits because insurance companies are reducing their exposure by offering smaller limits because we don't know actually what the worst case scenario. actually could look like. So you cap your exposures for each case? Absolutely. And we have capacity limits and we have risk limits in our company also. And that's very important to measure these. What about AI? So we make some AI models in, you make some AI models in a firm. It goes totally

ballistically wrong. Big losses. How can you ensure that? Yeah. So that's a new area. And I've been talking about this for quite some time, even before the big hype of AI. Because what's happening? People work with data. And data has biases too. And then the algorithms come in. And by the way, software programs have the same, you know. So the malfunction of algorithms or software programs is a topic that we need to really get a better understanding for. In our company, the AI governance and the framework for the digital use of data in business is strongly regulated. So we always have the human in the loop. We don't allow AI to take decisions for the humans.

And we have this dilemma. Managers have this dilemma. There's this excitement, but then there's also the risk. My understanding is that you have two levers to move when it comes to pricing. You got the pricing, right? So prices up by 3%, 5%, 7%. But you also have the exclusion element, right? So you can cap your exposures and you can just exclude things from what you cover. Tell us about this exclusion thing and how that works. Well, usually when you have a exposure in AI, for instance, or algorithm malfunction, etc., it can span across various types of covers that are existing today.

And cyber happened started that way because you had a typical property insurance cover or something that we call non-damaged business interruption because property covers usually were triggered when there was a fire or explosion. But the non-damage exposure and physical damage exposure, I think that was new. And through this, the cyber exposures were creeping into traditional covers. And that's something that was not intended when the cover or the contract was established. And that's why as it grew as an exposure, the industry more and more came to the conclusion, we need to actually exclude it, understand it. And then as we understand it and have a grip around it, then we need to have a separate cover for this. So you can buy now separate cyber cover instead of integrating it into a pre-a-coma. property or non-damage business interruption cover.

But these things are becoming, it's becoming more and more complicated, right? And so what we see, I read in the paper recently, is that more and more of these settlements are ending up in court. How do you see that development? I can't confirm that we have many, many more verdicts, but there are disputes, yes, because there's a dispute around what was the intent when the contract was created. And then what's the exposure? You know, the new exposure, the emerging exposures, are they included or are they not included?

I think that's the typical debate that you have. But that's normal, in particular in the B2B world, it's normal. When it comes to households to private customers, personal alliance of businesses, their clarity of covers very important because it's a consumer protection aspect. With companies that negotiate with reinsurance, companies or insurance companies. There you have two professional buying centers. Both are pretty sophisticated. And there it comes down to also contract certainty. That's very important. And that's why not only the price is important, but actually, as you said, the terms and conditions.

So we talk now about your three areas and how they and they kind of cancel out each other to a certain extent. So not, you know, it's a pretty kind of potentially stable results from you. Now, the way I, The way I understand this business and the cyclicality of the business is that you have some years with big losses. Afterwards, prices go up and when prices go up, it's really profitable, so then you get more capital coming in, competing prices down back again. How do these cycles work? First of all, there's not only one cycle. Very important to know it. Each product, Each line of business, as we call it, has a different cycle. So when a cycle, a rate environment is declining in property or natural catastrophe insurance,

there are other lines of businesses that are not correlated to that. And I think that's what we observe. We look at our total portfolio and we call it the target liability portfolio. We have a five-year forward-looking view and we assume development, rate developments, but also inflation, etc. That all comes in and then we see how does my portfolio behave. And if there's one cycle that goes down, I probably will not grow in that area so much anymore.

So I limit capacity deployment to that area. And then I have focused growth ambitions in other areas that are not correlated with that, are not going down. And that's the cycle manager. And it's important to understand the behaviors of players, players in each part of the cycle that a line of business is in. Who are the big players in reinsurance? We have the top three lead reinsurers, we always call them.

You could say the top five, the top five have something around 46% of the market share. The top three have something... So is Munich Re, it's you? Munich Re, Hanover Re and us, then their score as a next one. And then you have also the second tier ones, as we call them. So 31% roughly the top three, 46% top five, and the top 10 have roughly 70% of the market share. So the top tier one are the lead reinsurers. Prime insurance companies need lead reinsurers for long-term stability, strong balance sheet,

highly rated balance sheets, and long-term commitment. And also those are able to offer whole account views. Then you go into the second level ones. You find a lot of Bermudans in there. And then you have the third tier. Are you companies which are situated in Bermuda. They are situated in Bermuda. And it was a growing segment, the tier two segment.

And then you've got smaller companies, reinsurance companies, Very often departments of prime insurance companies who opened up a reinsurance company. Those are sometimes the tier three ones, yes. So let's say now after this meeting, I come out and feel really inspired. And wow, reinsurance company, reinsurance business, that's just the greatest thing. We should start to do that with part of the fund that we have. What do we need to do? I mean, what are the skill sets that you need to have to start a reinsurance company?

So first of all, you need to focus on what do you want to be and who do you want to be to service? What's your customer base? If you say... Well, we want to be a big player and make a lot of money. Okay. So I would say let's talk about the capabilities first. Yeah. So you need the diverse spectrum of all capabilities that you can have.

It's a multidisciplinary approach. We have scientists, physicians, we have engineers. We've got mathematicians, actuaries. We've got lawyers, business administration. So the full spectrum, right? The full spectrum, yes, exactly. The full spectrum, chemists and the full spectrum we have. Why?

Because the exposure and the risk pool is so diverse. And to get a good understanding of all the aspects of risk, we need this diversity. And if people are very curious, this is an industry to be in. So risks are diverse. When you switch on the TV, Niklai, for instance, and you watch the news. Every aspect of the news has to do with green insurance. So for me, it's super fulfilling.

So we are operating. So when you read the news, do you sleep afterwards or do you have nightmares or? No, because we make the world more resilient. So you need to find answers for this. And I think that's exciting. And you bring in your knowledge, but then also in working. in global teams. We have 1,075 teams at Swissry who operate at a global level, who are not sitting in one office like we do sit at one table.

So let's talk through these capabilities that you have then. So, you know, how many are actuaries? Just, what do people do? For instance, we have 50 researchers who think about natural catastrophes day in, day out. We have around 200 models. So each event outside in the world is one new data point that will be integrated and keep our models updated. So we probably have one of the most complete models worldwide. So that's one discipline. But if you go out and have to assess a data center, so you obviously have a lot of information through your desk research and risk engineering work and desk exercise. But you also go out. For that, you need to have people who have a deep

understanding of what they're actually assessing. So that's why these various disciplines are being, you know, brought to the party. Just to give you those examples, we also have people who are pure, underwriters. That's what we do. We're an underwriting company. And underwriting also includes, for me, claims. And we train people who, come from various different disciplines to actually do underwriting. There's a clear curriculum. We've got a new leadership architecture and training architecture, where we also include AI elements.

And underwriting is basically to decide how you price risk. Yes. Because you can make the biggest reinsurance company in 10 minutes by just taking on all risks at the wrong price. Yes. the wrong price. I hope you don't do this. No, of course not.

And then you blow up when the losses start to happen. How do you train people to walk away from the wrong risks? Yeah, so we have a clear understanding of our risk appetite. Because you can't remunerate people on the amount of business they write

because they can write the wrong one, right? No, you're absolutely right. It comes down to the incentives. I mean, we have a clear view on what our risk appetite is. Where we deploy our capital, we need a return on this, obviously this is translated in capacity deployment.

And then we tell people you're not forced to grow. You're forced to grow the bottom line, we always call it. So the incentivization is really to understand the risk properly and make sure that it's not growth for just for the sake of growth. And I think that's this dilemma that an underwriter always is in, and that's why an underwriter is an underwriter. And a good underwriter can balance it. can understand where can I grow, where can I deploy my capacity, where I get the return.

So you better understand the risk. And we have tools that give you an indication also of pricing and the terms and conditions. And then the negotiations out there in the market, in a very competitive market environment, might actually push you into a decision that you normally wouldn't take. And that's something that we watch very carefully. So the people who work here are, on average, extremely risk-givers? No, I know this is a discussion we have internally all the time. Because when we say the market is not in a situation where you should grow now,

because the terms and conditions or the rates are not risk adequate. So then as the moment comes where the markets are turning, you need to switch your mindset then. Because then suddenly you can write more. And that moment is very decisive because once you are in this defense mode, to switch then again into a more offense mode. So that's when soft markets, you know, pivot into hard markets. That's a very interesting psychological thing also. I'm just thinking a firmful of very risk conscious people.

I'm just wondering what the Christmas parties look like. We had recently a Christmas party in Zurich. We had, I think, almost 2,000 people. So you still know how to party. So how is AI changing the way you work? I think AI is changing our work dramatically. We have been dealing with AI for quite some time. So we were at the early stage already working with machine learning, advanced analytics, etc.

We are a data company and people company. We think in data models. So we have established a clean data strategy with a front-to-end ontology and then based on a clean, globally integrated data platform. Now with AI-ready, I always call it, because every AI use case we have will instantly be integrated into our data and technology, infrastructure. So that's where you can then detract the benefits. Because the problem very often is that data and technology is outdated, it's fragmented, huge IT legacy and IT debt, so that the individual AI use cases are still standalone use cases and cannot be integrated into your data and technology infrastructure. So the benefits are not

not visible. I think that's the biggest problem we have in the industry. Now, what we do with AI, we use AI also to augment to improve our decision making, but we also use it to improve our processes. What do you think quantum computing will do? Well, this is the next development. Now, quite frankly, I am happy if we manage phase one and implement, in particular, Genetic AI, because the change we will go through is massive. Because it changes the way people work today. We have to reimagine our processes. Now, quantum computing comes obviously because we deal with such an amount of data.

But I'm happy if I do step one and actually implement. it properly and generate the benefits. The rest, it's very far away and will come as a next step then for me. Now, you got a lot of money because people pay you premiums and so on and you put them into capital markets. So it's an important part of what you do, right? Absolutely. How you invest your capital base.

How, what is your view on markets now? Yeah. So I always call it the yin and yang in our insurance industry. We were talking about the liability side. Now there's the asset side of the balance sheet. And they all belong together. They're so important for delivery of our net income, for instance. So the yin and yang means also...

So liability, the kind of things you potentially have to pay out. And the asset side is the capital you have, which you put in financial markets. We assume risk on the liability side. That's the underwriting that we were talking about. And now there's the ALM, the asset liability. management piece that translates into the SAA, strategic asset allocation, then we give it to a partner and asset manager or sometimes we also do it ourselves. Give us a feel.

How much money do you have in, how much money have you got in this? So we have assets under management north of 100 billion. Obviously as we grow the business, this will also grow. So that's the magnitude that we have and then we have a strategic asset allocation that is obviously dependent on the liabilities and the payout patterns, the claims paying ability we have to show, and capability which have to show all the time. So we have a pretty conservative asset allocation,

but we work with all partners, but then also it's not just the asset management side to protect, sort of to the Ying and Yang side, as I said. We also are bridging from the insurance, the liability side towards capital markets, the insurance-linked securities markets, We're one of the first ones, the founders of the insurance and link security markets. We've got some notional $5 billion, $50 billion in the market out there.

So I think that's a significant market. And we have cat bonds that we issue. Catastrophe bonds, yeah. Catastrophe bonds that we issue. Where you get money and then if there is a catastrophe, you basically don't get so much money. Well, this is the cat bonds, catastrophe bonds are a nice instrument, in particular for institutional investors. So it diversifies quite nicely with your assets that you have and the returns are quite attractive. So we have seen between 11, 14% returns. So I think that's very attractive. But I think

it's more for professionals, for institutional investors. There are trends now to bring it more to private individuals. I would say this is an instrument for professionals. So I think, because there's also risks attached to it. Totally. Yeah. And as how would you characterize the corporal culture in Swiss Re? Swiss Re has more than 120 nationalities. We operate in around 70 countries, offices. We've got 70 offices in countries. We are global in nature.

We are diverse in nature. We've discussed about the disciplines, the capabilities that we bring together here. So that's the nature. That's the company who we are. We have a very collaborative. culture. We have a big, big tradition. It's 160 years old company and people see that there's a lot of risk inside, risk knowledge, and that's what people are proud about. And if you combine this risk knowledge, risk inside with a highly collaborative spirit and add now the performance

aspect to bring solutions to the customers. I think that is a nice dynamic. dynamic and energetic environment. Very highly educated? On average, yes. So we have graduate programs, we have partnerships with universities that we're very proud of. But we are looking for experts, yes, but also in particular, experienced people. So when you look at the recruitment that we have, a lot happens with experienced people, but we still have also graduate programs.

You are relatively new as a CEO. What part of the corporaculture are you trying to change? I'd try to maintain what Swiss Re stands for and the customer's value. But I'd like to emphasize a few points. The core business, we are an underwriting company. So we should be proud to be an underwriting company. Because that's why customers come to us. They like our expertise, our creativity to find solutions.

But I also like to have the performance, the performance view. We always call it close the gap to number one because that's a mindset. People always ask me, what does the number one mean? No, I said, that's the mindset. In your activity, who's number one? And what's the gap to number one? Can you close that gap? It's not about being the biggest all the time.

But to have that will to win that edge, to find the best solution for the customers, but that also bring a financial outcome that satisfies our shareholders, for instance. These need to win. Where do you have that from? I'm a competitive person, but I'm a team player. I always did team sports, and I loved it. So I refer to my leadership team as a football team. everybody has a role to play. If somebody tries to play other people's role doesn't work. So that's something that we're working on

and I'm really proud that we are now playing each one's role very effectively because at the end we need to score. You know, you've got people in the defense, they need to keep your goal clean, and then you've got people who steer, and then you've got people. who have the interface to the markets, the business unit CEOs for instance, but also asset management.

Now, you were born in Rwanda. Do you think that impacts the way you play football? Oh, I never thought about that. Rwanda is a beautiful country. I was... Do you feel like this outside interview, does that impact the way you think about Swiss three, you think? Maybe one aspect shaped me. as I was confronted with a lot of changes or uncertainties,

there was a coup d'etard and in Portugal was a revolution, I always take a step back and try to analyze what does that actually mean, also for me personally, for family, for you as an individual. And that probably is something that I applied in business to not shoot from the hip, to really analyze the situation and in today's world with all the uncertainties

with changes every day you've got to think all the time what does that actually mean don't panic so I call it strategic patience that I apply personally but also professionally tell me how that works

being so analytical and less prone to gut-filled no no no I'm an 80-20 person so announcers are very important but you cannot always go for the 100% analysis. The last 20% are actually slowing you down and don't

give you that assurance and that maximum inside anymore. So I'm really 80% person who are saying, look, as we have 80%, let's go out and yeah, do it and then course correct as we go along. I think that's that made our company quite successful also in this whole transformation that we went through. And I'm very happy with this approach. Yeah, I'm a people person. So you can analyze to death, but at the end of the day, we're sitting opposite each other. It's a relationship, it's a trust. And I have to have a good feeling about this.

I always call it the sniff test. What's been the most important person in your life? I had many important people. I mean, obviously, I could say my family was important and is important. And actually every personal interaction that our value is important, but the foundation is a family. And who's been the most important influence from kind of outside the world of business? Any particular inspiration you've had? I'm very interested in international politics, yes.

And I read many books apart it. And I learned about history and I learned about leadership. So each and every individual had certain specific aspects in a certain context. And I was interested in that. Why did certain people take, leaders take decisions in a very critical moment? And because there was probably a choice. Now, I don't want to pick one name because there were so many very, very good different leaders. And that's why people say, oh, who was your role model?

I said, you know, I learned from many people in business but outside business. It's about yourself, your balance. How do you become the person you are today? And it's through many interactions, through learning a lot by observing, and then be yourself. And if you were to give advice to young people, what would that be? Actually, I was just recently giving a lecture at a university, and people asked me exactly the same question. So, stay curious. Be open-minded, but also feel very grounded and have a balance.

But when you want to become a leader, there's two aspects. When you want to become a leader, you think about three things, and that's what I try to do also as we operate here with all the changes. anticipation. You need to anticipate. Imagine a situation that's not today in business, for instance. You need to anticipate a situation. How does AI look like in future? That's number one, anticipation. Number two, self-motivation, because everyone will tell you it doesn't work. More than 80% of the people don't like change. They say that they change, but they don't like change. So you need to be self-motivated all the time. And thirdly, you need to have inspiration

because you need to take people along. So those three aspects are very important. Then the other part that I say, do your current job as if it were your last. Don't always look for the next job because you get distracted. And then the last thing is, and that's really something I believe in

because I practiced it so many times. help people do something good for others, try to help solve a problem for others without expecting anything in return. The rest will come. Absolutely. Well, we are recording this on a Friday in Switzerland. It's a lot of snow outside, but you don't ski.

So what do you do? Well, there's many things you can do. On a Friday, it's always the evening dinner with a family. Yeah. What do you read, for instance? I just recently read a book, Kloziewicz, on war, and during my Christmas holidays, I read a book I can recommend it to you. It's called Jacaranda. The author is called Gael Faye, is a French one, whose mother is from Rwanda in the father's French.

Fantastic book, nice description about the situation in Rwanda, because he went there to find out, you know, who. the family of his mother was and it related to me my father's german my mother's from ronda so so i think it was a fantastic book it won some awards in in france a very well-known author so jaccaranda very good well we'll finish off on with that uh with that recommendation it's been great having you on big thanks thank you very much niklai