In Good Company with Nicolai Tangen - XPeng Co-President: China's EV Race, Flying Cars and Humanoid Robots

Episode Date: September 10, 2026

When will humanoid robots outnumber humans? Nicolai Tangen sits down with Brian Gu, Vice Chairman and Co-President of XPeng, who describes XPeng as a "physical AI" business rather than just a carmaker. They discuss XPeng's ventures into flying cars and humanoid robots, both built on the same core technology as its vehicles, and a Chinese EV market where new-energy cars now outsell combustion ones. Brian also reflects on his path from a chemistry PhD alongside a future Nobel laureate to a career in tech. With Norway as its flagship European market, XPeng's ambitions keep growing. Tune in! In Good Company is hosted by Nicolai Tangen, CEO of Norges Bank Investment Management. New episodes every Wednesday, and don't miss our weekly Friday Wrap-Up.The production team for this episode includes Isabelle Karlsson and PLAN-B's Guttorm Andreasen and Håkon Klemsdal. Background research was conducted by Simran Sahajpal. Watch the episode on YouTube: Norges Bank Investment Management - YouTubeWant to learn more about the fund? The fund | Norges Bank Investment Management (nbim.no)Follow Nicolai Tangen on LinkedIn: Nicolai Tangen | LinkedInFollow NBIM on LinkedIn: Norges Bank Investment Management: Administrator for bedriftsside | LinkedInFollow NBIM on Instagram: Explore Norges Bank Investment Management on Instagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How far ahead of Europe and the US do you think Chinese producers are now? Well, I think we are leading a few areas. I think in electrification, Chinese players obviously has advantage of having strong battery technology, capacity, cost advantages in the automotive side because China is the largest automotive market in the world. But what's really driving the, I would say, competitiveness in China is also the fast, evolution of technology. Hi, everybody. I'm Nicola Tangan, the CEO of the Norwegian Southern wealth fund, and I'm really excited about this podcast. Ex-Peng is one of China's fastest-growing

EV makers, but it doesn't call itself a car company. It calls itself a physical AI company, betting that the same technology that can drive a car, pilot a flying car, and power a humanoid robot. My guest today is Brian Gou, Vice-Chairman and President of Ex-Peng. Brian, warm welcome. Thank you, Nicola. Very happy to be on the podcast. What is X-Pen? Well, I would say X-Pen, first of all, is a technology company. But as we now dive into the depths of all things, physical AI, I think we're considering ourselves really on the forefront of this physical AI movement.

We're building EVs, as you mentioned. It's one of the leading brands in China as well as globally. But increasingly, we have broadened our products group to be including more areas and directions, including robots, flying cars, and other modalities as well, but using the same core. A lot of people think that an electrical vehicle is a car with a battery, but you say it's about the intelligence that's to differentiate and not the electrification. What do you mean by that? Well, that actually is what we actually has done differently over the years. Even when we were a very, very small startup, let's say about nine years ago when I first joined,

Expend. You know, that time, I think everyone is looking at starting an EB company. So the big pitch was electrified energy transition for automobiles. But even at that end, we have told investors as well as our partners that we believe the long-term differentiation is not with electrification only. It's actually in the intelligence. And that's why I think for us, you know, we have consistently focused on building a full-stack approach on the intelligence areas that includes hardware, software, and now increasingly moving into the era of AI.

So when you enter a car, you know, as a professional, how do you judge whether this is a great car from an intelligence point of view? Well, first of all, I think, you know, when you're getting to a car, you have to really understand, you know, whether the car can understand you. You know, there's obviously various degrees of understanding. First of all, it has to understand you personally, your behavior, your preferences, where you want to go to. The way you interact with the car, you feel like at ease. So that's the first thing you actually understand. The second thing is when the car start moving, I think an intelligent car can handle a lot of these driving conditions on its own. Obviously, I'm not talking about level four yet, but even at the level two plus, you know, I would say regime, you can feel the difference.

The more intelligent, the better trained models will handle the roads smoothly, handled very tricky situations very nicely, without causing any concerns or anxiety. So all of that actually translating to the intelligence aspect of it. And ultimately, I think, is how do we unify the experiences? So what we are working on right now is unify the autonomous driving intelligence and the smart cabing intelligence and merged them. I was actually just in the car this morning. We are going to launch our latest, I would say, the intelligent driving, the VL 2.0 additions. One of the feature is actually using the smart cockpit interaction to command drive.

driving. They say, I want to pull over a little bit. The car knows what to do. I want to actually make a quick stop. They can actually do that for you along the planning as well as delivering you there. So all of that, I think, combined together with deliver an intelligent mobility experience. What is this going to look like in 10 years time, you think? Well, I think with advancement in technology, I would say, you know, the level four capability were just a matter of time. It's going to happen. It's going to happen in our lifetimes. It's going to happen in a lot of. lot of, you know, sort of ubiquitous scenarios that you encounter. So if that capability becomes everywhere, then you can imagine the current way of life, current mobility experience

will be completely transformed. You are not limited to a certain location. You are not limited to, you know, spending time, planning your time to handle the driving. The driving is as part of the, your daily work or daily, you know, entertainment as part of your, you know, mobility. time spent. So I would say it will change people's time allocation. It will change industries like real estate, change industries like communications, and also change pretty much everything, I would say you can actually handle inside a vehicle now. What's going to happen on the range side in terms of how long, how far a car can travel? I mean, just to inject here, level four is totally autonomous, right? Yeah, level four is fully autonomous without human intervention.

For example, without the steering wheel, yes. Yeah. So what's happening with range and charging times going forward? I would say the range with the current chemistry. I think that current chemistry will last for, you know, quite some time. Before we get to maybe solid state, I would say that's more than five years away to be commercially, you know, feasible. So with the current chemistry, I would say the range will stay similar to what we see today. let's say between 500 to 1,000 kilometers,

given the size of battery, obviously. But the charging time and charging experience will change dramatically. Obviously, you saw the super fast charging become very, very popular in China already, and it's spreading around the world. The charging time and charging speed will allow people's downtime

to be very similar to a gas station stop. So, for example, it used to be taking, I don't know, half an hour to an hour, of charging time. Now it's maybe five to ten minutes. So that, I would say, also changes people's mobility behavior. So with charging as well as the efficiency, I would say you don't need a large battery. You don't need a car that has, you know, 2,000, 5,000 kilometers of range. That just adds to the cost and weight of the vehicle. But I think it definitely addresses a lot of people's range anxieties already with availability of network and the charging speed improvement.

What's the range where you think it's enough and beyond that you don't need more range? I think 1,000 kilometers outside sort of limit. Anything more than that is waste, I mean, in my mind. Do you make your own batteries? What do you use CATL or who do you use? Well, we don't make our battery cells. So we actually source from very high quality suppliers. You know, there's actually a couple other names, which is large battery companies in China. with, not CATL. But we do design our own battery technology utilizing those cells. For example, the battery management system, the packing technology, really the electric platform that make our vehicle more efficient, higher and faster charging. So those technologies actually, we do

ourselves. Where do you see the Chinese EV market going? This past month, Chinese new energy penetration exceeded 60% or maybe even close to 65%. That's a staggering number, which means that we have more EVs sold in China than ICEs today. So this is actually the first time the battery electric vehicle crossed the ICE. And obviously adding on the plugging hybrid, the new energy segment is now more than 60% of the new car sales. which means actually, you know, the EV or New Energy vehicle is actually a mainstream product. A few years ago, people always see EV is a niche product, right? I mean, it's only small portion of people buying EVs compared to the, you know, people,

most people still go for the ICEs. But today, because of the change, because of the change that, you know, EVs and hybrids become mainstream, all the rules are different now. So, for example, we're now getting rid of it. all the subsidies because now you don't need to subsidize a mainstream product. You don't need to encourage the use of them anymore. You know, people are naturally buying them. But at the same time, I think of those behavior, for example, you start to see gas stations disappearing, replaced by charging stations. You've got to start to see, you know, people actually now utilizing the

electrified vehicles, EVs and hybrids, because they have a battery, they have computing power, a lot of those intelligence become more and more prevalent. So that actually leads to a whole new trend, not just because of energy, but also intelligence and other behaviors. How is the competitive landscape developing? It seems from the outside that it's becoming, I mean, it's just like fiercely competitive. Absolutely. I think China, the new energy vehicle market, which includes the EB market, is probably the most competitive segment or industry in the world. We have a lot of very, very high quality players competing with each other.

I would say China is probably the fittest gym in the world for automotive industry. Whoever can actually survive this gym, I think, has a good chance of really become leading players globally. Who's going to survive that, Jim? Well, I think we have a decent chance, but also there's a very, very pure battle for everybody. Because like I said, one is it's very competitive. Two, it actually requires a lot more to compete than the past. I think in the past, automotive company can focus on their segments. They use a lot of, you know, tier one suppliers, tier two suppliers.

They actually source technology from outside. But today, given the development of this physical AI, you know, cars become more and more like robots, right? I mean, not only it's electrified, but also because it has the intelligence I mentioned, it's because they have the autonomous driving capabilities I need to demonstrate. In order to build a very competitive product, you need to be both good at automotive engineering but also at AI and software, you also be good at understanding the new electric power train. And at the same time, you need to also make sure you deliver the best services as required for building the brands. So having all these capabilities making the competition,

at a different level compared to it before. So the people who can survive and be, and I think, winning the race will have to be the people who has a full stack technology, but also has a scale and global reach in order to be competing. How far ahead of Europe and the US do you think Chinese producers are now? Well, I think we are leading a few areas. I think in electrification, Chinese players obviously has a advantage of having strong battery technology, capacity, cost advantages in the automotive side because China is the largest automotive market in the world. Like I said, you know, China being competitive, being, you know,

the market where consumers really embrace new technologies. So the speed of change and also the customer adoption of new technology is faster in China than in other parts of the world. So I think with these kind of background, and coupled with also the manufacturing advantages in supply chain, manufacturing efficiencies, etc., I think China does, I think, possess, I would say lead in some of those key areas in the EB development. But at the same time, I think Chinese players also have to be learning a lot from global players. First of all, I think Chinese players still not used to be a leader in a multinational world, because that's an area, I think Chinese players do need to learn how to behave as a company that can be a leader in multiple continents, multiple regions, building a brand that people

trusts, building a service that people rely on, and also building local relationships that allow you to stay for the long run. All of that, I think, takes a long time to invest. So those are things actually we should learn from multinational leaders in Europe as well as in the US. How long time do you think it would take Ex-Pang to roll-loads globally? Because you've, in a way, started in the Nordic region to a certain extent with a dealer network and so on. But just where are you on that journey? And what will you take? Well, you know, we started a journey, as you pointed out, in Norway, about six years ago,

when we actually launched the first store in Norway, I think, the end of 2020. And it's been a very interesting, I would say, and very, very educating process. You know, we went through a lot of changes in our business model internationally. We entered Europe as a whole. We also interned into other regions in Southeast Asia, Middle East, Australia, and also Latin America now. So we're selling over 70 countries at the moment. But I would say the biggest challenge is to making sure that we, you know, really adjust our models to becoming a locally accepted brand and product.

As you know, Chinese brands in the past has been viewed as coming from, you know, possess lack of quality or some, you know, brand recognition issues. So for us is that not only we are entering these countries, but also have to build the local capabilities and brand that supports our growth. And also another challenge for us is how to differentiate

from the, you know, a dozen other brands that currently also is trying to go global out of China. So those are things actually, you know, are top of online in the moment. When you compare and contrast Ex-Pang with, let's say, European producers, what are you seeing? When Volkswagen has a stake in you and you also produce cars in Europe, so you've got a pretty unique opportunity to compare. How do you compare? I would say we're, you know, looking at a number of. dimensions when we actually see ourselves competing with global peers. On the technology front, I think we, you know, as a small company, a young company, I think we're probably more nimble

than a lot of the global players. We make decisions quicker. We can actually also make technology innovations faster. So that's one of the reason that I think some of the global peers are working with us, such as Volkswagen. But at the same time, also we are really understanding how a global multinationals operate. That's something I think we're learning from the bigger players, you know, from German OEMs as well as, you know, American and Japanese OEMs, how they can actually sustain, you know, many generations of product development and cultivate a local recognition and brand loyalty. That is something I think we're learning from them as well. Same time, I think also given the development in EV and also the technology in intelligence,

I think there's also a thesis to be made is that you would see more and more collaboration between Chinese players and international players, such as the ones that you saw between Volkswagen and Expan and some other examples as well. Because I think there is a very strong complementarity that we actually bring to the table. You know, we're bringing faster innovation. We're bringing, you know, I would say some of the consumer understandings from a Chinese market. and also being able to deploy in a faster pace. But at the same time, I think, coupled with international players like Volkswagen,

that actually can help us really achieve scale, also having us making sure we can monetize some of those investments in a much wider segment. So those benefits, I think, come together. I think actually could encourage more collaborations down the road. What explains the difference in speed in innovation and generally in speed? I mean, what explains what we call the Chinese speed? Well, I think the Chinese speed appeared because multiple factors are driving it.

First factor is because China has proven to be a very, very strong player in the software, internet, consumer electronics area. So those expertise allows, you know, the Chinese development, and a team, R&D side, working with the automotive engineers to really think creatively how we can utilize those learnings and make cars smarter and make more consumer-friendly. On the other side, you have the market forces. As I mentioned, there's a lot more competition in China that force you to be more innovative, to push you to really be faster in turning some of these technology development into actual product

And then the third piece of that is, you know, the consumer adoption rate is much faster. So in China, people willing to, you know, embrace new technology. You saw that in Internet, in mobile Internet, in mobile payment, all of that actually points to the same thing. So those three forces together as well as obviously the supply chain manufacturing advantage I mentioned makes Chinese innovation much faster. How much faster would you say? I think there are two ways to look at.

is vehicle development cycles. I think we probably shortened by maybe three to five years to about two years. So I think there's definitely shortening of vehicle development. The other one is how quickly you actually launch new features. I think every OTA we add features to our products. So that product cycles much faster than the traditional automotive product cycle because now you have the software and OTA feature adding to that. And why can you do that so much faster then, let's say, European producers? First of all, it is the DNA of the company. It's different. I always say that, you know, XPEN, even though we're obviously automotive company, but the core DNA is tech.

You know, we obviously, the founders came from both the automotive world as well as the software, internet world, and now increasingly it was AI capabilities. So I would say the DNA at the really drives the way we think about product and development. Second answer, I think, to this is that we're small, we're young. You know, we don't have department walls. We don't have processes that has been placed for decades, so it's very difficult to change. We also don't have stakeholders. We need to maneuver to make those changes happen.

Some of the global players, you know, you have to make a decision in their headquarters, and when the decision reaches China or reaches their end market, it's already that may be a year later. So those speed, it's not able to match the speed we see on the ground in China. How much harder do you think you work? Well, I think I would say, you know, our team probably works very hard. In a way, I think it's both the China work ethic and speed of innovation, but same time also we have a sense of entrepreneurship because the company is only 12 years old. So we still, I think, the management team and team here, still have that spirit I experienced when I first got here.

We still keep that entrepreneurial spirit. So I think, you know, those two characters really drive, you know, the work ethic and I think, you know, teamwork much, much harder. Flying cars. When will cars fly? It's already flying. You know, we actually, but we are flying a different way. We have this company called Aereach that actually is a company that we incubated.

And the company currently is now. only invested. We're a minority shield at the moment, but we consider that company in our ecosystem. They have been designing flying car for over 10 years. It was actually founded by a very charismatic founder who used to be an individual pioneering the development of flying motor and fly vehicles on his own. It was only a few people, very small. But now, it was obviously our support with the development over the last 10 years. He's built that business into a, you know, very, very substantial business. And they actually have a product ready to launch,

obviously pending the final approvals in China at the moment. It is considered flying car, but it's actually what we call the aircraft carrier, the land aircraft carrier. It's a car that carries a eV toll inside the vehicle and can be separate automatically and be used flying for 30 minutes, and then you can actually take two people,

you know, the vertically took off, and then it can actually come back, automatically and be loaded into vehicles. So that actually is something, I would say, is very, very close to commercial reality. The company actually already collected more than 7,000, you know, indicative orders around the world, not just in China.

So I think you're actually seeing the low altitude economy, which is the Chinese buzzword for the last few years. Same time, also flying mobility, that's actually, I will say, the Western world, you know, become probably reality in the next year or two. Yeah, we'll cut in some some footage here so people can see, but when do you think there'll be a mass

market? Flying EBITO business, I think it will take in my opinion a longer adoption time. Clearly, it's heavily regulated area. For example, we are waiting, you know, the company, Airwage is waiting for Chinese

CAAC approval, which will take, you know, I would say longer than regular vehicle approvals. At the same time, I think for companies or individuals who are willing to buy and operate these vehicles, I think it will take a long educational process. So I think in terms of the curve of penetration, I think it will probably take probably three to five times longer than what we typically see in automotive or in some autonomous driving technologies. So it will be a gradual process.

But at the same time, I think I see a lot of enthusiasm for this space because ultimately liberated, I would say, will liberate a vast economy which is not tapped at the moment, both in China and globally. So I think there's a tremendous potential for this segment to become a mainstream industry. Brian, let's move on to another incredible, incredible area, the humanoid robots. Why are you going into robots? You know, the reason that we're going to a robot, it's actually very natural. First of all, as I mentioned earlier, X-PEN has always believed in intelligence.

It's our core differentiation. That intelligence, obviously, in the automotive world, is automobiles driving, smart cabin. But with now the advent of AI and physical AI development, that means that we have to develop a core capabilities, for example, including, you know, edge computing. Now we have our own semiconductor chips in our vehicles. we develop ourselves. We have to build models for handling the VLA that make autonomous decisions for vehicles.

We have to also build AI infrastructure that handles data inputs, collection, and training. So all that capability actually is naturally very transferable to think about the robotic development. Because at the core, it shares a very similar physical AI fundamental building blocks. So, for example, in the robotic world, we're utilizing the same edge computing system, which including the chips, the models, the data, and the training.

But also, the same times, we are using our learnings from, you know, the power train, how, you know, the efficient electric power train, the motor, electric motors, which can be utilized also in human robots. And I think those capabilities is synergistic in terms of development because they share that same core. Ultimately, in fact, if you look at the process of, you know, vehicle development, it's increasingly becoming more similar

to a robot than a traditional automobile. So that's why I think there's significant synergies that we can actually share because the core that we focus on is actually on the intelligence. And why we're going to humanoid is because we think ultimately, with all the capabilities I mentioned, the most versatile form that can impact people's daily lives

is a humanoid robot. Because think about it, you know, the environment that we live in, the room here, the office there, the store, you know, the restaurants, all built for human movements and human occupation. So having a human-like human robot, which is what we're trying to do, unlike some of the other robotic company,

is to make sure that we can design something that can be widely applicable, deployable, and that also help us getting the information and data collect that can continue to train and improve the robot. So that is actually the thinking behind it. Yeah. No, I personally, I can't wait. I think it's going to be absolutely great. And I also think it will get divorce rates down because you'll stop doing all the boring. things like taking out the rubbish and emptying the dishwasher and all these kind of things

that creates divorces. But now, you are a very serious player here and you just raise capital and have support from Alibaba and Tencent and so on. Tell me about the landscape. There seem to be a lot of very serious players here. Yeah. Well, I mean, human robot has seen quite a boom in the last, I would say, two, three years. internationally you have the big boys like optimus from Tesla as well as figure and others

that's been very showing various degrees of capabilities attracting attention and capital but in China I think you also see a really robust industry that you know you see emergence of a lot of startups that actually has been focused on various type of development in robotic industry and the process but I would really see say that, you know, what we see here in China, you can group those companies into a certain different types, right? You have one type, which really focus on the body, which you can see the company like Unitree, like engineer that shows very cool, very, you know, high caliber, you know, motion capabilities. They can run, they can jump, they can kick, they can perform

and dance, but, you know, they're really good at the body. But obviously, you know, we want to see them become more intelligent. That's obviously something, you know, that they haven't been focused on. The other group of the companies that focus are more on the brain and the intelligence side, they are training the robot to handle certain specific tasks, but because, you know, their resource and focused on the upper body, they actually, you know, did not really design anything that has, you know, nice, you know, motion and movements. And then there's the third group, but I would say is, for example, the dexterative hands, the companies that really try to build key building blocks,

as well as combined with some models, that can perform certain tasks. So those are the types companies, but where I would say a company that can really put these three pieces together and make that unified in a common, deployable, volume-produced humanoid. That's something that we aim to do, and which actually we have now completed, I would say, the development for these different pieces.

I think ultimately there's different views on our robots. You know, certainly there are industry players say, okay, robot needs to, you know, immediately go to industry factories to perform certain tasks. But remember, you know, we already have robotic arms that's operating our automobile, you know, both factories. So, you know, the robot that can be used to perform a fixed, you know, task is not as exciting as a robot that can handle more general and can be general purpose robot. At the same time, I think, as I mentioned, ultimately training the robot and with the relevant data and had the data scaling capability is going to be the key to the success.

And we think the best way to train robots, obviously there's a lot of data, you know, you can collect from internet, from simulations, from egocentric, you know, sort of video camera collections. But ultimately, the best way to collect the most accurate and useful data is by deploying the body that actually has the most general purpose application and deploy them in a large quantity. That allows you to have the best data collection and training. So those are things actually, I would say, you know, we're focused on that's different from, you know, the other players in the industry we see in China. Is it right that Chinese training centers buy a lot of humanoid robots to train them and to actually collect that data and then feed it back to the producers? Is that how it works? People do that mostly for deploying into certain specific tasks, specific use, which I think is still. not, I'm sure there are players ultimately will be able to, you know, complete a business model utilizing that approach. But I would say is that the data collection should come from regular deployment and use and continuity improvement of that robot that you have the fixed body.

The fact that you have so many players in the EV space, what does that do to the Chinese abilities in the robotic space? Well, I think there's a lot of the capabilities, I would think, EB player can empower robotic development. For example, the process of providing electric power train, you know, lightweight, sensors, compute. So these capabilities, I think, especially, you know, EB company that has the AI capability, a lot of them can actually also, you know, I would say

empower the robotic development. But it also goes back to the roots of the company, as I mentioned. You know, if the root of the company is an automotive player, it's already very difficult for them to pivot towards, let's say, a software-defined vehicle and then move towards an AI-defined vehicle. For them to immediately jump from an automotive company to a robotic company, I think it's a big cultural challenge as well. So I think also it goes back to the DNA and the roots of the company that who actually can leverage that capability and have the innovative thinking, allow them to see the development needed for human robots.

What about the ecosystem of subsuppliers of the various components that go into these robots. How would that compare in China with, let's say, the U.S. or Europe? First of all, I think the supply chain for robots is still being formed. There's no existing suppliers people can just pick and choose to build a robot. Or you cannot pick and choose to build an advanced robot. I would say what we do right now is actually we spend a lot of our time and effort working with our EV supply chain, identify players who has a capability to be able to function in the robotic setting. A lot of the parts that we use for our humanoid, including the Dexter Hands, the PowerTrain, the joints, the motors, actuators. A lot of those

are actually designed by ourselves, but obviously we don't make everything ourselves. So we actually work closely with our supply chain partners to make sure we have, you know, very, very solid supplier for these parts. I would say the overlap between our EV supply chain and the robotic supply chain is more than 50 percent, but most of them are not readily available parts. Those are parts that we actually have to work closely and design together and make sure they can supply us. And I think that's probably going to be how, how, uh, some supply chain will be built for this industry. Have you got access to all the chips you want,

Nvidia chips, all these kind of things? We do actually design and build our own edge computing mobility chips. For example, the Turing chip, which is now used in our vehicles, replaced the Nvidia chips we used before as the go-to high computing chips for mobility driving technologies. I would say for all the related chips, we have full access and we don't have any limitations. We do have to, you know, obviously sustain the same, you know, challenge that we, everyone's facing on the memory chip and other, on the cost and supply side. But so far, I think it's within control.

But in the long run, I think, you know, we see that a lot of those chips we actually can tap into more locally sourced fashion. So make, I would say, the supply more secure and more available. So when do you think they'll be on par? Well, on the vehicle end, I think we are already producing chips that can rival the latest technology that's provided in the West. So, for example, our tuning chip has 700 tops of compute, which is similar to Oaring Store, the immediate store, which is their latest chips. So for these on board, edge computing mobility chips, I think we're already there. A lot of Chinese players all come up with similar capabilities. But I do think there is still

generations gap exists in the GPU and other sort of cloud computing areas, which I think Chinese companies are trying to catch up. When you think the Chinese language models will surpass the American language models? I think it's a different race. I would say the two ecosystems are building language models trying to tackle in different problems and focus on different customers.

I would say in the US, you have the frontier models that actually is focused on delivering high value and also secured solution services to Western governments and companies,

whereas I would say the Chinese models are more focused on, you know, tackling, I would say, small-median companies as well as, you know, emerging market customers, including obviously Chinese market as well, to, you know, making sure the models can be easy to use, open-source, and also have a low-cost. So I think those are different priorities.

At some point, I think, you know, you will see separation of the ecosystem that rely on these two different type of capabilities. We talked about self-driving cars, flying cars, humanoid robots. What is the city going to look like in 20 years time? Well, I think first of all, the city, it will be a lot more dispersed, my view. It does not need to be a center. unlike today, you have CBD or in a center area

and then people commutes and then they have satellites. People rely on proximity to do things with obviously the autonomous driving or the robot taxi or level four, individual level four as well. You probably don't need these clusters.

People can actually have much easy access to remote areas. So people actually can actually can choose to live in more distributed fashion rather than a concentrated fashion. I would say the second part is that with also the technology, there would be a lot of last-mile solutions. For example, you know, the delivery, you know, nowadays there's a lot of delivery.

These probably can appear in your doorfront or in your roof or some, you know, designed storage. It will show up because it come from low-altitude. or come from autonomous-delivered vehicles or robots. So I think those also reduces last-mile need for a lot of the merchandise solutions. I would say you'll see cities become three-dimensional because a lot of these travel, a lot of these highways no longer just be on the ground. There will be designated corridors to travel in low altitude, in high altitude, in

in certain, I would say, routes that connects cities, so much faster. So it's pulled together the city sort of distance and travel time. And ultimately, I think in home and businesses, you see a lot of routine, repetitive, as well as a workflow that can be handled by humanoids. that I think it's going to happen very soon. And obviously it depends on how quickly the humanoid can acquire more and more tasks.

But I think you'll start to see the population. There may be a scenario that you'll see more humanoid walking on the street than humans. That could be a very interesting site in a new modern city decades down the world. Do you think we're going to be happier? Well, I think I would hope with the advance of technology, And, you know, you save time, you save hassles, you actually can travel much longer distance, or you can actually have more time to enjoy. Actually, you can allocate more time to things that matter. For example, you focus on things that really can impact your emotions.

It really, you know, you spend time to think about judgments. You have to make, not on a simple task, on a more philosophical sense. There are things that actually you can actually at a different degree to really approach because now 90% of our time is occupied by routine tasks and items. Moving on to the personal side, what matters in your life? You know, I joined X-Pen nine years ago. I joined my friend and partner, Xiaopo, who's the chairman's CEO. I think both of us, I think, want to do this, you know, because we already had a prior career.

We don't need to have a new career. We want to do this because we think that this is going to be so much fun. We want to see the world really be shaped. We have our cars now. Now I go to different countries. I'm so happy and excited to see our cars in different streets.

Hopefully in the future we'll see robots roaming in offices or in stores that is our robots. I want to see really the lives being changed and transformed because the technology and innovation we brought to this world. So, yeah, this is something what drives us and also it drives expand. That's why I keep really innovating and keep moving forward. No, I agree. We live it an incredible time.

So interesting. How does your day look like? Oh, I would say every day is different. You know, we, for example, I can just tell you my today, you know, today I spent, you know, a couple hours. When do you wake up? I wake up around, you know, 7.30. I, you know, start my first meeting at around 839. And I, you know, talked about my upcoming, you know, sort of a trip in Europe, which will have, you know, hopefully some exciting things to do as to pursue. And then I had, you know, two hours of really driving in our brand new vehicle, the G9L.

But most exciting is actually test drive the latest edition of our autonomous driving software on that vehicle, which I drove the car all around the city and the test all kinds of scenarios. Very exciting. I see tremendous improvement. And I think of this gives us more confidence that we can launch probably more level four-like capabilities, not just in China. Maybe hopefully next year is somewhere in Europe as well. So that's something also will be very excited about.

And also I'm going to go, you know, explore our development in Hong Kong when setting a new R&D plan for, you know, how to really work with Hong Kong, utilizing the capabilities in that market, you know, with the talents and the support. And then, you know, at night probably was dinner with a partner to explore more exciting things. So, you know, I would say every day is different. You focus on both running the business, but also more important is thinking about the future. How expand can bring technology to real life, how it can expand to more regions, more markets, and get, you know, the global, you know, sort of talents to join us to pursue this mission together. What's the way you look into the future? Who do you speak to and what you read?

I actually, you know, because of my background, I used to be a banker and also used to to be a banker who's focused on technology. So I have a lot of friends in the entrepreneur world. A lot of people who you talk to on this podcast are actually my friends. You know, those are thought leaders. For example, Joe, Joe Cai is a great friend. He is someone like, yeah, from Alibaba. So I talk to him and really learning from not just him,

but also a lot of Alibaba friends, you know, people from, you know, Tencent, you know, Jensen is a great, you know, I would say a person that we learned a lot from. Obviously, we used to be, you know, collapsing a lot when we are, you know, utilizing video chips more. But again, I mean, I think along the way, I would say given what we do and what we see,

we went into a lot of very amazing accomplished minds and I was inspiring people. So I think for me, you know, having that exposure and having the ability to talk and learn from these people is tremendously rewarding. I really enjoy it. Now, we talked about all kinds of successes and great things, but we've started also, it's important also to look at some of the failures. What would you say if you were to pick your biggest personal failure in life? What has that been?

I would say, you know, I always regretted I did not pursue my first passion further. You know, my background is, you know, actually my first. My first career as a scientist. I was a chemist because my mother was organic chemist when I started in college, which my mom, you know, put down major chemistry for me already. So I became accidental chemist. But I really enjoyed it. I got my undergrad in chemistry and then went on to pursue a PhD in biochemistry.

And actually my PhD experience is probably one of the most rewarding process because I got to work with my professor. David Baker. I don't know whether you know him. He actually won the Nobel Prize two years ago in chemistry. And he and I actually started that lab together. We actually both arrived at the University of Washington at the same time. He needs a graduate student. I need a professor.

And that's how we started that lab, which now became obviously highly successful. And he won the Nobel Prize. But that is being a very absolutely, I would see, rewarding process. and I would say that I was, at that time, wanted to be a scientist just like David and also tried to pursue a scientific career. But in the middle, I think I want to say

maybe I want to also see the outside world other than the lab and academia. So I sort of pivoted away from science and went into business. And obviously first was Wall Street and then now in Ex-Pen. But I would not say my biggest failure, but I think that's one of my regret is if I actually continue it on.

I would also be very exciting to make sure I can solve big problems for the world in the scientific area, which, you know, David and I, actually, the thesis was actually to unlock the protein folding problem, which actually he did, you know, about 20 years later. So you think it would have been fun to have five different lives and kind of shoot them off in different directions. Well, I think that's something I always dream about. But I guess, you know, at some point, you should have to focus on one thing at a time. But I think life is full of opportunities.

And I think it just, you know, focus on, you know, the next one. I think that's something I think it's, I would always tell my kids, you know, don't worry about changes. Change always bring opportunities. Just focus on the next one. Yeah. And then just to kind of crystallize that a bit more, just what would be, your advice to young people generally?

I always think for young people, never afraid of change, embrace change. Actually, I always think, looking back in my career, change make you better, make you stronger. A lot of times we go into a new area, whether it's a new profession, a new region, a new language, a new culture,

or new industry, you feel like you're intimidated. Actually, you should feel really excited to learn. I mean, you can actually now get into a news area that you absorb what's there. So I think that attitude could actually, you know, really reward the young people if they actually get adopted that attitude. Well, and this has been just tremendous. I kind of think you are a scientist, you know, and for sure, a very good one. And what you're doing with the company is totally mind-boggling.

And thanks for giving us a glance into the future. It's been so interesting. Thank you very much, Nicola. Very nice talking to you.