In Good Company with Nicolai Tangen - Zalando Co-CEO: Building Europe's Fashion Giant, AI in Retail and the European Dream

Episode Date: March 4, 2026

What does it take to build a European tech champion from scratch? Nicolai Tangen sits down with Robert Gentz, co-founder and co-CEO of Zalando, to trace the journey from selling flip-flops to building Europe’s leading online fashion platform with more than 60 million customers. Gentz shares how Zalando scaled at unprecedented speed, the flywheel behind its expansion across categories and countries, and how early customer learning shaped everything that followed. The conversation explores how data and AI are reshaping fashion—from sizing and personalization to logistics and returns—and why Gentz believes in a “European Dream” that keeps entrepreneurial talent and companies on the continent. A wide-ranging conversation on scale, leadership, and Europe’s future in tech. Tune in!In Good Company is hosted by Nicolai Tangen, CEO of Norges Bank Investment Management. New full episodes every Wednesday, and don't miss our Highlight episodes every Friday.  The production team for this episode includes Isabelle Karlsson and PLAN-B's Niklas Figenschau Johansen, Sebastian Langvik-Hansen and Pål Huuse. Background research was conducted by Une Solheim. Watch the episode on YouTube: Norges Bank Investment Management - YouTubeWant to learn more about the fund? The fund | Norges Bank Investment Management (nbim.no)Follow Nicolai Tangen on LinkedIn: Nicolai Tangen | LinkedInFollow NBIM on LinkedIn: Norges Bank Investment Management: Administrator for bedriftsside | LinkedInFollow NBIM on Instagram: Explore Norges Bank Investment Management on Instagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi everyone, I'm Nicola Tangan, the CEO of the Norwegian Soan Wealth Fund. And today I'm here with Robert Gens, who is visiting us in Oslo. And Robert is the co-founder and co-CEO of Salando, which is, of course, as you know, all of you, Europe's leading online fashion platform. Robert started Salando in 2008, right as the financial crisis hit. And most people thought that selling shoes online was a terrible idea. But now, 17 years later, Salando serves more than 50 million customers across 25 Europe. in markets. We own a lot of shares in this company and it's really exciting to have you here. Yeah, thank you much for inviting me and having me. And of course, since you own the biggest kind of

fashion thing in the world, what do you wear today? I'm very, very dark today. So everything that I wear actually got from Zalano today. So it's a bit like Steve Jobs like your sweats like in Norway. You kind of have to dress a little bit warmer. Good idea. Now, Rob, let's go back to the start. You founded Zalando in. in 2008, just as the financial crisis was kind of hitting the world. So tell me about the very start. Before we started Zalano, like me and my co-founder, David, we started like a social media company in Latin America, which was like a student network in Mexico, Argentina and Chile.

And this was like a startup that didn't really work out. And then we said, okay, well, that shouldn't be it. So we actually wanted to actually try it one more time. And we came back to Europe and thought, okay, well, in e-commerce with soft goods, there's actually very great opportunity here in Europe. And we looked into various categories and fashion and really found shoes quite interesting. And in June 2008, we started to sell flip-plops on a domain called Fliptops D. And really worked out well.

Consumers really liked it. It really picked up to, like, to whatever, like 20. flip-flops a day. Based on this insight, we got our investment into, for like a big idea, selling shoes online and then we got started. 20 flip-flops a day, were you, you were packing them yourselves and sending them out? Yeah, yeah, we packed them ourselves, we went to the post office and really enjoyed every single customer contact we had and every single conversation and just, and as well asked, why did they actually go for an online search for flipflops and where they didn't go to stores.

And it was a very, very good insight. So that was mid-2008, right before the financial crisis. But e-commerce was quite new at that stage, right? Yeah, it was very new. And I think that as well was for us a very good insight, that whenever we talk with people about e-commerce and with shoes, we got a lot of feedback from people. You cannot with order shoes.

You have to try them on. You have to, you have to, this is more bricks and mortar experience. But then we actually saw in internet, like in Google, like how many people actually searched for specific shoes and specific sizes. And they made it very clear that there's a big market. Although it was not a market for like 90% of people, but it was actually market for a few percentage of people. I suppose in the US had done something slightly similar. Was that an inspiration for you? It was like selling shoes online.

So I think it was not the most innovative idea, though. But I think what Zappos in the S proved is that with shoes in e-commerce, you can actually build a big company. And that helped actually to raise them some money in basically in June, July 2008. We'd get 100,000 euros of investment. And then the financial crisis hit. And then we said, OK, now we better get this, get us going and survive. And I think in retrospect, this was actually a very good thing for us because it really produces a lot of character. That I think we still answered today actually, not sure from.

The fact that you got the crisis straight in your face, you think it was a good thing. Yeah, I mean, I remember like with my co-founder that we were, I mean, we were debating endlessly, for example, for half a day if we should actually buy. So remember like this book of the German retail with shoes, which gave us a lot of kind of market data about the German shoe retail. And it cost like 60 euro at the time. And we really were debating, do we really need to spend the 60 euro? Today, we have more than 60 million customers. We have thousands of employees, but we still tell these stories of frugality of every single euro and every single resource really counts and treat it as if it's your own money,

do you really have to spend it? And I think this produced a lot of character that we still benefit from today. When did you realize that there was potential beyond the shoe category? The scaling of Sandland had happened extremely fast. So we went from, like in 2009, we had probably like 5 million revenues, 6 million revenues. Then we went to 150 in the next year, then more than 500 million. Wow. And then more than 1.2 billion in the fourth year.

Wow. So we literally went from 50 people in 2009 to end of 2011. We were like more than 2,500 employees. So the scaling went very fast because then we realized that we have this flywheel going for us. So we started off with shoes and then we understood, you know, the more you provide selection, actually, the better you could actually convert the traffic. So better you could create the experience for customers. So we really had to just, I mean, scale selection and then we were able to convert the traffic in a good way.

And then we ask ourselves, is this not only shoes, but as well, a fashion, yeah, and can we actually cross-sail fashion? What we then started to do. And then we asked ourselves, this is not only Germany, this is a European proposition. and then we went into the first market and realized that we could actually bring the same selection that we had now in Germany to a smaller market that was very much appreciated. And then we scaled across Europe.

And that was a very, very fast scaling in these first years. Yeah, much faster than we normally see in Europe, right? I mean, that kind of bit scaling. Sometimes you see it with new technologies and so on, but very rare. So what decides the speed at the start of your launch? How do you get to these growth numbers? When it's very clear how your flywheel works, then I think it's very incredibly easy for leadership to align under this framework of how you actually grow. Explain flywheel for the people who don't know it.

We started off with an Adidas shoe. So people actually in the internet searched Adidas Zamba, like a specific shoe size, let's call like 46, like a bigger shoe size than you usually should get. actually in the store. So they had very specific searches. And I mean to convert such a search in a sale, you just need to have this shoe. But there's not that many people that search for this shoe. So more people actually search for Adidas Zamba, which is then the model name. And even more people then search for Adidas or for the brand name Adidas. But the brand name Adidas, you cannot really convert until you really have like a good selection of Adidas in place. So for us that actually meant because we had to scale inventory, we started like very specifically

to scale around two shoe searches in the first couple of months. We knew that the more you build up selection, the more you can convert the traffic. And then you can go from within a brand to the entire brand, then to more brands, then you have entire Germany, and then you can replicate the same for the next country. And all of a sudden, you didn't have like a selection that brings the same amount of selection, no matter if you live here in the north of Norway, or if you live in the south of Italy, or if you live in the close to the high street of Paris, is and you have the same access to selection.

And I think that was very much, I think, the journey of the flywheel of how we built up a selection and actually could grow and grow and grow in this environment in a good way. But you are expanding in a lot of different dimensions at the same time. So you're expanding in categories, in brands and in geographies. How do you think about that expanding in so many different ways at the same time? The way of how we think about it is we have people that we form a relationship with. These are our customers. And we have more than 60 million, more than 15% of the European population that has an active customer relationship with us.

And we nurture these relationships with our customers. We try to, we invest a lot in terms of our experience, to never disappoint, to always deliver in a way that exceeds the expectations. And then it's a question like how we can use these customer relationships to do more for them. So, and like we started out with shoes, went into fashion, recently went. as well into sports, into beauty, into families and kids. So into all aspects where we have a can actually play like a bigger role for our customers. So we build relationships and then we grow our role for them in a bigger way. And today it's about 300 euro on average they spent with us.

And our ambition is obviously to grow the role in different categories that we actually play with. How did you decide which countries to roll out? We're only in Europe. And so the big reason for only Europe is because Europe is actually so beautifully complex and we made Europe very easy for brands to interact with due to our kind of logistical footprint so where we can build like a big logistical network throughout Europe that can serve customers as well in the north of Norway and so south of Sicily. And within Europe we actually have the benefit of this network outside of Europe.

So if you have a brand instead of building out all these facilities yourself, you basically just let you do it. I mean what we have recently done now with our B2B service. that we as well enable brands through our B2B services to use our entire logistical network as well for their own e-commerce and as well outside of Solando, which is the B2B vector that we have recently launched like last year. Tell me about this.

So what do you do for the clients? So this is a whole, you basically supply the whole ecosystem, right, for e-commerce. Exactly. So we have a B2C, that's kind of how we grew up with. And recently we have as well launched a B2B. vector for us where we basically productize the logistical infrastructure and service that we've built and as well software and regard actually the 7,000 brands that we offer that we work with

as customers of our infrastructure and they can use the same infrastructure that we built for ourselves now to actually run the entire e-commerce on. So that kind of has all these localization features throughout Europe and that they can send product through like for their own e-commerce or as well connect to different marketplace and only run the entire inventory from one infrastructure, which is, I think, a very, very good use for the brands because they don't have to invest into own capax of logistics and they get as well the benefits from the entire network that we have for ourselves. So if I'm the client and I buy something directly from a company, you basically provide the whole backbone and do the delivery. Exactly. And I still think

I deal just with that company. Or do I know that you guys are involved? Yeah, I mean a good example. It's next that's actually committed the continent to European fulfillment. So all the fulfillment actually for next within Europe is done through our logistical footprint. So Rob, you collect a lot of data, right? You know more about what's selling in Europe than any other firm, right? How do you use all these data? I mean, you're right, with 60 million people that actually shop with us on a yearly base and many more, obviously, like, you know, visitors that we actually have, they actually use our destination. There's, um, There's a lot of great data that we generate on behalf of consumers.

And for example, what we do here is that we use the data graphs from consumers and as well from merchandise to help consumers to find better sizes for themselves. We'll find the sizes that have a higher probability to fit them. So, I mean, if you actually order something on Zalando and you order, have like a history with Salando, and you sometimes return items, you can feed pick on items, something you don't return items, then we see as with similar customers that have similar kind of history as you have. And when you actually look at another item that you have not yet bought,

we can give you more accurately advises which size to order. Because sometimes these brands run a bit smaller, sometimes they run a bit bigger, which we can actually build all of this knowledge graph on sizes. If I go on Zolando and I'll try to buy a medium shirt, you're going to say, Nicolai, you must be joking. You should have Excel. That can happen sometimes.

But I mean, sometimes as well, these brands have different size profiles. So I think it can also be sometimes that you say, okay, well, I mean, in this brand, you might actually be an S, so can't as well happen. Right. But I mean, these are like good data points. But I think there is another kind of very interesting data challenge, which actually comes in logistics. How do you actually optimize logistics in a right way? Well, in this like network of logistics centers, if we run across Europe, where like an item should actually be put in this network that actually has the highest probability in terms of. speed but in terms of cost where it might actually be purchased as well there's a lot of

math and data that actually really helps to optimize this network as well on behalf of the entire industry because we work with 7,000 brands we run a very very big network there's a lot of inefficiencies which can actually be calculated away by actually producing right algorithms and the right data graphs one of the most important ways that AI is changing the way you run your business now I mean it has it has a few of components about how we actually interact with um consumers. For example, we recently launched like a discovery feed, so which is actually a great way of how can actually consumers can interact with with fashion beyond actually the only buying, but as well in terms of their discovery and their inspiration, entertainment. So where we actually

surface from like a huge pool of content, those items of content that consumers might be the most interested in, which gives them a great gateway towards finding or getting inspired or as well having fun with with fashion lifestyle. So that's It's an interesting new project that we have launched on our mission to inspiration and entertainment with consumers. A second kind of bigger initiative of ours is an assistant that we have built, which actually enables consumers to interact with us in natural language. So we can actually ask us a much more occasion-based question.

So I don't know, I'm showing up here in Norway and what shall I actually wear today in Norway, which is something e-commerce previously couldn't really answer. But now with all these advanced, large language models and as well in our own advancements, we are able to cope with these questions and answer these questions in a good way. So the model told you, okay, you're going to Norway. It's such a depressing country. You need to wear black. Yeah, could be.

What about sizes? How is technology going to help people choose the size? The size and fit is really one of the most interesting and complex questions in fashion and here, AI actually helps quite a lot to actually solve these questions. Can I take a picture of myself and get the size? Yeah, exactly. So you can take a picture of yourself at Salando, which actually one million customers already have done. So you take a picture of yourself with using the Zalano app.

And we render you the sizes from your body. And this actually increases our probability to actually predict the right size for you. But it's two side of problems. It's the body size, but it's also like the merchandise measurement size, which is another question. But I think in the future, there will be as well experiences where you, for a certain part of assortment, we would have close to 100% of confidence that we actually can predict the right size for you, where you might have actually detailed pages where you don't have to select any more size.

We do the size selection actually for you, and we're very confident that whatever we will send you will actually fit you. So that's the consumer site. Tell me about how you work with returns, which is a very big cost in your industry. Nobody really likes returns. No, not the consumers don't like returns. We don't like returns. The environment doesn't like returns.

It's nothing that anyone likes. So consumers don't really like to go to the postal office and just deliver returns again. So it is something that we work on to help consumers to take better choices. And the big driver of returns is obviously that an item actually doesn't arrive in the way of how the consumers imagine it to be. So it be it like in terms of sizes, how it fits, or be it in a way of how it was visually imagined when you actually ordered. there's actually going a lot of investments from our side into helping consumers to actually better take better choices here. So on the size and fit we already discussed a little bit like what we do there, but even like on the product presentation. So there's actually innovation

happening where this problem might be a better solved in the future. So for example, we're now able to render from two-dimensional pictures, like three-dimensional experiences or like videos that actually help consumers to really in-depth actually try to imagine this item. on the detail pages in a way that wasn't possible before. So if you add all these things together, what do you think of the real key issues that you need to get right as an online retailer? The one key theme is customer obsession,

because consumer expectations are constantly rising and really staying close to the consumer and really as well staying close to the technology that actually enables you to provide solutions that actually were not possible before. I think that's one key theme. The second one is as well like have a very very good relationship with the brands because we work with 7,000 brands and They as well drive their business and they have a lot of good ideas and understanding what they really need and how do you as a platform actually cater to them in the right way and how do you make it's as efficient for them as possible to drive their brand equity on the land I think that's the two most important ingredients you have to get right

You are facing echo blue new ultra low-cost competitors Timu and Shine, how are they changing the landscape for you? I mean, you have these Chinese competitors now, but we're basically in a different gain than those companies. I think they are only about price. Our promise, actually, to consumers, as a platform, is much more around quality. As a consumer, you know that the selection you get on Zilando

is actually, these are brands, there's a certain quality filter that we actually apply to it, And we invest a lot into experiences to make it better for consumers, like delivery, speed, reliability, brand presentation, and as well, like, you know, these innovations are size and fit and product presentation and so on. So that's a promise towards consumers. And the promise towards brands is as well on quality, which is well very important is that they don't compete on Zalanda with supply chains that are, you know, just after copying their styles at a lower quality and cheaper price. but they actually have an ability to build up their brand on Zalando and tell their story on Zalando and sell their product in the way they want to sell them. So it's a very different kind of game that we play.

These Chinese platforms, you see them in segments of the market that are very price sensitive, like young fashion enterprise points. You see them as well in terms of advertising prices because, I mean, they're sometimes very aggressive in advertising. So that as well, we see that. But I think overall, like our Zalando game is much bigger. So it's as well like not only about fashion, it's about sports, about beauty, about family kids and many more kind of lifestyle propositions that we are active in.

Just if I try to look forward, let's say, three months, what are you seeing in terms of changing purchasing behaviors? Anything going on in society which you think is interesting just now? We have a very broad view across Europe and I think sometimes you see like price consciousness I think a little bit more like in some elements of the market in Germany like Eastern Europe is actually performing quite well but I think kind of really I think extraordinary. Any particular colour? Any particular colour for the next season? What we recently developed is consumer adoption is actually like a transporter where we actually mine the data of Solano and actually provide by cities.

We can actually look on the app. You can actually serve by cities what are actually movers and shake us in terms of trends by cities. So I'm not sure if it actually also is well on there, but I think Amsterdam, Berlin, Paris is on list where we actually mine the data about what kind of items as well get searched. more like what kind of color trends you actually see more by city and it's actually varies very much by city. It's not the same like in Berlin or in Paris or in Oslo

and actually very trans-conscious consumers actually look at these transporter data quite quite a lot but also brands are very very interested in the data and then we deploy to them towards their own kind of production and knowledge. How different is a taste in the various cities? So you mentioned Amsterdam, Berlin, Paris. How different are they? If you're interested, like you can just look in the app

and you signed like you can actually filtered by different cities and you just see like just last week what kind of items were trending in which in which city and it's it's it totally it looks totally different yeah wow and if you were to be a bit ahead of time what would you buy just now what color and what what kind of clothes so it's not I have a turtle leg all the time but I am very consistent I'm very loyal to the to a couple of brands that I have and in terms of colors it's it's mostly in the gray blue and and white and dark space. Let's move on to the climate impact and the environment impact. Just how do you, how do you assess Solando's role in the environmental impact?

The fashion industry has an impact on the environment and it actually has to as to the weather as I see as well as the Landon's role and that is kind of important because we interact with more than 60 million consumers and with 7,000 brands. It actually has a has a big impact and we should use actually our role as well very wisely to to drive impact for good. I think there's one open myth that I just want to clarify is e-commerce has the view that actually is Cedres Pari was actually not better than bricks and mortar or like worse than bricks and which actually is not true because in bricks and mortar you actually have like you have all these you know all these stores that they have like in the inner cities.

They have to have lightning. They have like you know heating. They have these inner logistics. towards providing merchandise in these stores and all the consumers actually have to, you know, drive their, park their car, go in there. So in e-commerce, you don't, if we'll have all that, yeah, so you just have logistics centers that actually can and are actually pretty efficient in terms of their campaign. And then you just have to run the shipments where it's a lot of levers that you can

be able to actually make this neutral. So like for like, actually e-commerce should actually have a much less impact than X bricks and modern. But though, I think like in total, we are, you know, We're very committed to being climate neutral in our own operations in private labor by 2040 and as well in our larger scope by 2050. On top of that, we as well try to actually find good mechanisms of how we can actually help the industry to do better.

So for example, what we do is that we enable more sustainable flags. So when actually a brand invests into a certain area of sustainability, so for example, like different usage of material or different impacts that we actually create these labels that consumers can actually filter on them. And what we see is that this more sustainable filter labels, so when actually when consumers shop by them, actually that the return rate actually gets slower. So it is actually better for the consumer. It's better for an environment, but it's also better for the brand because return rates

are always a big cost factor as well for brands. Like again, a flywheel of good win-win-win-wins, but actually the brands can actually invest towards more sustainable and actually as well has a good impact on consumers. And I think those kind of solutions that we can drive on this intersection between consumers and brands is something I'm very excited about because it is really win-win-win situations we can actually drive very uniquely at Salando. Let's talk about leadership. So you run this from the first flip-flop to now.

You're like 15,000 people or thereabouts. How has your leadership style changed? I mean, a lot, I guess. When I started as I was 24, like never really worked in another company. Outside of the social media company, we started as in Latin America, and never really had any work experience. So I think literally in the first years it was about just being in the front row and just, I mean, doing the, like playing on the field, yeah, and just doing stuff.

Over time, obviously, like, you know, we have grown a lot. lot and I had to as well learn about how to actually scale myself and how to how to scale the leadership. What I would describe now how I would lead is I'm quite an enabling leader so I trust by default the teams or like the DS that actually work for me directly and I try to actually spend quite some time in just understanding and being curious about like what's what's happening and and then only really get involved in the areas where I feel that only I can do that. So it could be some very ambiguous decisions or like some more long-term decisions where you need a certain conviction and risk budget or stubbornness as well.

And I think on topics around culture, like corporate culture, like those kind of elements where you just have to really get involved and take a stance as no one else can do. is such a thing as a German leadership? I mean, Zaland is a, we employ people from 140 different kinds, and we are very European companies. So I, although it's headquartered in Germany, but I would very much, I think, describe us as a European company.

I mean, you're quite self-spoken. Are you, are you an introvert? I, well, I mean, I'm not sure if I would be an intro. Yes, but maybe yes, yes. And how does an introvert run a big company? What are the challenges? I think actually Barack Obama is even like introvertness. I mean, I do the stuff that I really care about.

And I think it's about role modeling, what's the right values for a company. And I really deeply care about the company. That's very visible in everything that I do. But I don't really have to take on the stage all the time. So I'm as well kind of like very happy as well to provide the stage to people that actually deserve the stage, like when they actually have accomplishments. And I think that as well creates a right kind of team.

team mentality at the so I think introvert or extrovert I think there's always good mechanisms for good leadership absolutely I do suspect that you're only introvert than Barack Obama to be honest but hey yeah how do you communicate internally in the organization so we have a lot of different formats that we do so we have we have like an own intranet network where we do like you know post letters we have rerun all hands very frequently and we test out as well a different performance where people just ask us anything and just react to what they have on their mind. Now, what are the most important part of the Zolando culture that are non-negotiable for you, that you really work hard to retain?

When we started out, I really didn't really think that much about corporate culture because we, I mean, you just start to run. And then I actually realized when we grew that certain things actually happen in the company that you where you feel like you have not, where you kind of don't agree with and you just ask yourself, how did it actually happen? When we realized that, like 2010, when we grew like from 50 to 200 people,

we started to actually codify these principles and then actually make them really count within the company. So these are like 14 leadership principles that we then hire by, that we promote by, that we quote a lot internally, that's very kind of visible. And these were like leadership principles that we say, like, you know,

these are things that really matter when you actually, and it should actually feel kind of like very, very important. And people really quote them and people are using them that provide like an author of how we take decisions, how we run actually together as a team. One leadership principle that is important for us is, for example, play as a team, dare to fail, huh? as you need to nurture this willingness to take as well risk yeah so otherwise i think you really create

like a culture where it's it's very easy to just discuss a problem yeah or why it actually should go wrong because there's always so many um good arguments why things actually should go wrong and then i think if nobody is willing to actually stay positive and you take the risk i think then nothing will really happen i think if you actually create such a such a culture then i think you basically create like a poker without blinds so where i mean only only people actually go on when it's very very very clear. If as a company you never really take on some calculated risk, I think you're very clear to, you know, lose over time.

And this is actually something that we're, that's very important to us that we really encourage people as well to, to take a sense, take a, take a risk and then and then don't be the, I told you so a person, but when it actually doesn't go around, but we cheer them up when they actually take risk and go off to an opportunity. So that's, for example, one that I personally care quite a lot about. You listed on the stock exchange quite early, right? Just after six years.

Was that the right thing to do? It was very early when he started around 2008, end of 2008. So we had as well like a different kind of environment that we started in. So there was not a vibrant VC scene. so there was different investors that we could talk to. So like one of the biggest supporters and as well shareholders of Solando was actually Chinnwick. And Chenevich was actually like a public company. So and after some time because the land actually grew so big and so big in a short amount of time,

we became actually a very big part of the net asset valley. So their kind of earnings scores and Chenevick is a public company. So their earnings calls became the quality earnings called became like our earnings calls because we had to just provide a lot of transparency towards the Cinevik shareholders because it was such a big part of the assets. So we had like all these, you know, the downside of a public company without really having the upset of public companies. So for us, it was a very natural step then in 2014 to go public, which was, yeah, I mean,

only a couple of years after we found a company. So we have, so now I run for much longer time now a public company. and a private company. Yeah, yeah. You've been very vocal about kind of the European dream for entrepreneurship and I'm very concerned about that. Just what are your thoughts about Europe as a place to start a business? I think what I'm missing sometimes in the European debate is like a positive Northda idea.

So because if you don't really have a positive North idea, you kind of get into a lot of detailed discussions and, and negative discussions. What really I think we need here in Europe is first of all, I think, a positive kind of idea. What is actually what we want to do? And I felt like that actually creating such a European dream is actually like a good and good and north-star idea

because I feel the American dream, which was I think like a big brand of the US, I think it actually has suffered quite a bit in recent, which is a brand around, you know, come to you come to the US and and we we cheer you up and build your dream and it's it's right kind of inclusive place and I feel the American dream has suffered because it it went from a very inclusive idea not to much more exclusive idea so not everyone is really welcome in US and I feel Europe really has has a big big chance to

actually tap into this void and actually create like a European idea because it's a it's a free space it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a very values driven democratic space we have in Europe. And I think we have all the great talents and we have a lot of potential. And we just need to, I think, formulate like a positive, like north-the idea and make us work clear that we are, I mean, we're in a race. We're in a race between China and US. And it's about relevancy and we want to win this race. And I think that's some of the positive ideas. I think that we need here in Europe. So do you think, that what's happening in the US now is making it more difficult to be a startup there?

I think at least, like, you know, when you're a student that radiates now from university and you ask yourself, okay, where shall I actually start a business? I think there's certain elements in America that make it make it a little bit easier. But in Europe, there is a well a good fundamental. So there's access to people. it actually has a big senior market that should actually enable us to actually really stay here. And I think in terms of values, I think that's one of the core questions that I have for ourselves is what is actually the value space that are actually most attached to?

Because that's essentially choosing your home as well as for your company and as well for yourself. That's actually, I think for me, like what actually European dream actually can become. But I mean, in order to make such a dream happen, first of what we need to do here in Europe is to really realize that I think those founders, and these moves and shakers, they are really, I mean, they are your customers because they can choose where they want to start a business. How do we really make sure that we make it easy for them to actually start a business and scale a business here in Europe? And how do we make sure that, you know, they have speed and can generate scale and really understand as well as customers and apply like a lens of competitiveness towards all the environment that we actually suggest to them through our regulation?

So I think that's one. And then the second one is for me, I mean, one of the big arguments for Europe is this, this, is the single market that we have here because it's actually a huge market. So it's, you know, it needs to be as well understood as a single market. So in terms of the home merchandise and people and that's what capital is, is used in the single market. So it's like a lot of fragmentation that goes beyond the natural fragmentation that you have in Europe. I think it's just not very helpful. What will we take to make a single capital market?

I think you're probably a bit more an expert than I am. But I think just too much competition between the different nations doesn't really help that much. No, I think we've got 35 stock markets in Europe. Yeah. It's quite a lot. I think it's quite a lot, yeah, but I mean it's certainly is not so helpful. I think understanding that I think we are in this together and we win this together, I think is much more helpful. And the third element I would really mention is we talk a lot about level playing field,

but I think we actually need to even go beyond that. We need to make it easier for European companies that operate from Europe than actually outside of Europe. And I think at the moment we don't do. We sometimes even go after our European companies first because they had quality in Europe and don't and make it easy actually for companies to operate outside of Europe. Some personal reflections. When you look back at your journey at Salander, what are you the most proud of? I mean, it's 17 years now since I started this company.

So I'm very proud that we actually built that we built something very meaningful for Europe with a great team that I very much enjoy to work with. And I think when I think about the scale of, you know, one and 15% of the European population, and have done this as a consumer company, it's something I'm very, very proud of. If you try to abstract what it is that makes a good founder, what is it? Who are successful? What for me is a trade for like active investors and many funds that I always look for is some element of curiosity. and some element as well of humility,

because that's what I realized or doing this for 17 years is curiosity is a very, very important leadership trade for me because you can only really take good decisions when you listen and when you are interested and you can learn actually from everyone, so from a newly joined person

or two of your company, from a customer, from a partner, you can literally learn from everyone. And this is what important that you're curious in order to actually take a good decision. And the second element of humility is, as well, for me, important because, I mean, you need to be respectful for what is in front of you and not get ahead because, I mean, just because whatever you build until here doesn't always predict that you as well be successful in the next kind of challenges that you have in front of you.

And I think that's, I think, two kind of important traits. I would always look for founders when I invest into their companies. How much do you work? I think I don't really differentiate that much between like when I work and not work. I mean, I think about Zalando when I get up, when I'm at work, when I'm at home, I think it's always, when you found, I think it's a very, very special kind of relationship that you have to the company, like a very deep care. And I mean, it doesn't really matter where you are and you always think about it in a way.

So it's very hard for me to say like what's work, what's not work? Do you think that's a prerequisite for being a good CEO that you are totally absorbed in the company? I mean, you have to balance, you certainly have to manage your energy. I think that's important. When you really love what you do and when you're really passionate about what you do and when you care, I think it also gives you a lot of energy. And obviously, I think there's a lot of stuff that you do as a founder and CEO that not always gives you energy, but I think there needs to be always a certain balance that you actually, I mean, wake up every day.

I think with a good amount of energy. Where do you get your energy from? And I know that you know specifically because you go one of these rings, right? So what is it that gives you, where do you charge your batteries? I think in a work context, whenever we discuss about, I mean, new innovation, new products and imagining how this actually could be, I think there's always, for me, like, very exciting products. Can you see that from the graph when you talk about new products? It's just like, you can see it.

I will probably be able to see it. That's something very excited always like when you have an idea, when you have a plan and then we execute on it and you see it actually coming to life and actually working out. That's always the most rewarding experience in an entrepreneur life. Where do you relax? Well, I relax when reading, I relax listening to. That's a typical way of how I would relax. What do you read? I mean it's it really depends.

something I read some some some some some some some some some some some some some some name cream is actually something that I enjoy the Nordic noir the Nordics I could have guessed actually now last question what what's your advice to young people stay in Europe make it make it work in Europe I think that's that's that I think that's one wish I would rather say I think for for young people and they actually start companies out why should they say in Europe for me it's a part of the world that really, I think, deserves to actually gain in relevance again in terms of our value set in the way of what we represent. And I think it really depends as well with the value creation

of companies actually in Europe. And it's all really on us to actually have this value creation actually hear from within Europe. And I think that's what I think is a very big motivation of my or my co-CEO to actually prove that this is actually possible from Europe and actually put our energy to make it work in Europe. Well, that's a great piece of advice. You've for sure have added more value in Europe than most people I've ever met. So big thank you for doing that and for being on the podcast. Thank you very much, yeah. Thank you.