In Our Time - Cynicism

Episode Date: October 20, 2005

Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss the Cynics, the performance artists of philosophy. Eating live octopus with fresh lupins, performing intimate acts in public places and shouting at passers by from inside a barrel is behaviour not normally associated with philosophy. But the Cynics were different. They were determined to expose the meaninglessness of civilised life by action as well as by word. They slept rough, ate simply and gave their lectures in the market place. Perhaps surprisingly, their ideas and attitudes were immensely popular in the ancient world. But how coherent was cynicism as a philosophy? What was its influence on literature and politics and is there any truth to the contention that Jesus himself was influenced by the Cynics? With Angie Hobbs, Lecturer in Philosophy, University of Warwick; Miriam Griffin, Fellow of Somerville College, Oxford; John Moles, Professor of Latin, University of Newcastle.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Thanks for downloading the In Our Time podcast. For more details about In Our Time and for our terms of use, please go to BBC.co.com.uk forward slash radio four. I hope you enjoy the programme. Hello. Eating fresh loopins, performing intimate acts in public places and shouting at passers-by from inside a barrel is behaviour, not normally associated with philosophy.

But the cynics were different. They were philosophers determined to expose the meaningless of civil life by action as well as by word. They slept rough, ignored personal hygiene, ate simply, and gave their lectures in the marketplace. Perhaps surprisingly, their ideas and attitudes were immensely popular in the ancient world. But how coherent was cynicism as a philosophy? What was its influence on literature and politics? And is there any truth to the contention that Jesus Christ himself was influenced by the cynics? With me to discuss the philosophy of cynicism is Angie Hobbes, a lecturer in philosophy at the University of War.

Warren, John Moles, Professor of Latin at the University of Newcastle, and Miriam Griffin, fellow in ancient history at Somerville College, Oxford. Angie Hobbes, cynicism in common with so much philosophy from the ancient world, has its roots in Socrates. Can you explain how Socratic ideas made their way into cynicism? Yes, well, for Socrates, the good life is a life of self-sufficiency, and this is possible because virtue is sufficient for happiness. And so happiness and virtue are within your power. So such things as your social status, your sex, whether you're freeborn or slave, whether your Greek or non-Greek, are irrelevant.

External contingencies are by the by. Your happiness is up to you. And how did that key in and when did key in? Are we talking about the early cynics being contemporaneous with Socrates? Well, certainly the first inspiration for the cynics is thought to have been one of Socrates' associates called Antisthenes. And Antisthenes, again, he promotes these ideals of self-sufficiency and freedom through rigorous mental and physical training.

Once you get to Diogenes, who comes after Antisthenes and who's the first cynic proper, what he does is say, yes, self-sufficiency and freedom are what it's about, but to understand how to achieve these, you have to understand human nature. because happiness is living in accordance with our rational understanding of nature, of our nature as rational animals. So knowing yourself is absolutely crucial. Now what Diogenes then does is to say that human nature is often at odds with human society as we've created it.

So what we need to do is to try to rid ourselves of the unnecessary and unnatural desires which human society has instilled in us, free ourselves from those burdens, and live according to our simple, minimal, natural desires and do what we want, whenever we want, where we want, including eating lupins. Miriam Griffin, Diogenes was called Diogenes, the dog, and cynicism, as it takes its name from the Greek word meaning dog.

Why were they pleased to be associated with dogs? Well, the dog has always been associated in Greek literature right back to Homer with shamelessness. That is not having a sense of shame and doing things in public, which people are usually ashamed to do it in public, like defecating and copulating, and also scavenging for food.

Diogenes himself said that he was a dog because he fawned on those he begged from, he yelped at those who wouldn't give him the money, and he bit the ankles of those who were bad. That's all dogish behavior. And we're told that at a banquet, people threw him bones as if he were a dog, and so he replied in kind and urinated all over them.

But this is a way of saying, I'm not bound by social conventions. Quite dramatic, isn't it? I just live in a completely natural way. Yes, exactly. I mean, anything that you can do, you can do in public. But it's interesting there, isn't it? Because he's saying,

Why are you worried about us doing this in public when you're not worried about people greed, people killing each other? It's making more of a statement than an exhibition of himself, isn't he? Could you develop that? Yes, I mean, I think there is a serious point to this. I mean, what was often said of them was that they deface the currency

and what they mean by that is they take ordinary social conventions, ordinary social values, and you despise them and show in action and in word that you have absolutely no respect for them. The story that everybody listening to this programme will know about Diogenes is that he lived in a barrel.

Alexander the Great came to visit him, as it were, and said, what do you want for me? And he said, stand aside so I can see the sun. Now, why is that so important as a statement from Diogenes and why did Alexander want to visit him, the man in the barrel? Well, that's, of course, a very good question. I mean, some people think that Alexander, who is reputed to have said,

Alexander, I would like to be Diogenes, was thinking of both the physical toughness of Diogenes, but also his independence and the fact that he is in charge. That is, you can't do anything to him. He has power for rather different reasons from what Alexander has power. Alexander has kingly position, and he has an army. Diogenes has power because you can't do anything to him. Briefly, Diogenes famous, he's introduced, if I'm right,

the word cosmopolitan into the Greek language. So was there something about Alexander and Diogenes in their philosophy of how the world should be seen that they had in common? This is a very difficult question because it's a question about Alexander as well as about Diogenes. And there are views about how cosmopolitan Alexander actually was

and whether he really thought that all his subjects should have access to positions of power or whether he always kept the Macedonians on top. But some people feel that he did have a certain liberal view, and if you're going to have an empire of that size, sooner or a lady, you're going to have to rope in the elite of your subject peoples. Whether Diogenes had a positive cosmopolitan view is also a difficult one. We know that he said, in answer to the question,

where do you come from, which is the standard Greek question to a stranger, I'm a citizen of the cosmos. I'm a citizen of the universe. I'm not a citizen of any particular Greek city. Can I turn now to John Mills to take that along? I mean, that is almost a political statement because being a citizen of a city is very important to get where you come from. That's why Miriam Griffin was saying it's the first question you ask matters to your identity.

And he is saying, I will not be identified by that. So is that a way in for us to talk about any political significance as a philosophy that cynicism might have had? Yes, I think it is. Cynicism pits itself absolutely against all civilized values, and it pits itself against the city and politics. It obviously rejects those absolutely. And it sort of appropriates this vocabulary and uses it to describe itself.

In a way, it does a pun on the sort of word state. The state becomes the state of being a cynic, the cynic in his moral or philosophical. state. And this has, in a paradoxical way, it has political implications because the cynics simply don't play ball with the city state or its activities at all. They opt out. They're against it. They criticize it. They try to make as many converts as possible. So as cynicism progresses, it's alienation and challenge to the city becomes ever greater. And it's not a case that you have a sort of standoff between politics

and some sort of anemic moral thinking. The cynics, because they are anarchists in a strong sense, paradoxically become a political force. One of the most famous of the cynics was Cretes, who we are told, was a man of no great physical attraction whatsoever, but he was wooed by a virtuous maiden

called Hipparchia, is that our appearance? That's right, Hypatia, a wealthy, virtuous, young maiden. Anyway, he gave in, and they had a, infamous or famous and notorious but cynical marriage called the dog marriage which alienated Zeno

first could we briskly have the dog marriage and then what was the significance of alienating Zeno one's dealing with a crucial ambiguity here how do the cynics understand marriage from one point of view as a marriage from another point of view it's just a sexual relationship entered into freely

the story is that Zeno came along and saw his master and this virtuous version at it on the street, on the ground, and he was so horrified that he whipped off his own cloak, thereby making himself naked to cover them. And this is the moment of transition between cynicism and stoicism. Now, that story can't be true, the story about Zeno, that is, and he would not have been offended by this,

because early stoicism accepts cynic shamelessness and behavior of that kind. but it's a way of dramatizing the shift from cynicism to stoicism. But it's certain that Hipparchia and Cratties were a couple, and they had children. And what they were doing, what Crotis was doing, was enacting very precisely one of Diogenes' most famous claims, which he made in his ideal state a written word. He rejected marriage, and he said that the man who persuades should go with a

woman who persuades. And this is free consensual sex. And in ancient terms, of course, it's revolutionary and in certain sense is very admirable because it totally impasse the woman. Miriam Griffin, can you tell us how cynicism translated into Roman life, where we are told it was taken up by aristocrats and even senators, and yet they're being advised by people who are beggars in the marketplace who have nothing or anti-everything they stand for, wealth, possessions, material pursuits, and so on. But he did translate very strong. the inter-Roman life, didn't it? That's quite true. There are various changes that take place in the way the cynics behave, or certainly the way they're represented in the Roman sources.

I think what the Romans were attracted by was, first of all, the lack of theory. The Romans are a practical people, and they saw the point of ethics. They weren't too sure about physics and these other branches of philosophy. The other thing they liked that went with that was that the cynics taught by example, and there is a very long Roman tradition in which you take the ancestral example as a model for virtue.

So the other thing is that the cynics had a kind of rhetoric of their own, a kind of eloquence, and this was very much a satirical eloquence, and the Romans always thought of satire as their appropriate genre for expressing things. So they were very attracted by that. And finally, there was this kind of physical austerity and toughness,

which the Romans pride had themselves on, and which their ancestors were all supposed to have lived as sort of austere farmers. So I think there were a lot of attraction of cynicism for them, and I assume that these cynic philosophers fitted in very well. They knew they were there to set an extreme example of what human nature is capable. of, but that there were certain things they had to eschew, and that was modesty. They had to observe the canons of modesty. They couldn't copulate in the street and do things of that kind.

And even verbally, there are some signs of more strength in the Roman cynics. Angie Hobbes, we're taking forward the idea of cynicism into the Roman Empire, and the Roman cynic philosopher, the great one, was Demetrius. was he carrying on, was he modifying, what was he doing with the teachers of Daogenes? Yes, well, I think Demetrius is an excellent example of what Miriam has just been talking about because what he does is highlight those aspects of Greek cynicism

which he feels accord with traditional Roman virtues such as hardiness and simplicity and self-control and honesty. And what he also does is try to kind of gloss over the more shocking and nefarious aspects of Diogenes' cynicism as not in keeping with Roman decency. So Roman cynicism is, I'm going to get this right. Romanism is a modification. They don't want the street behaviour.

They don't want the street behaviour. They don't want the lunatic fringe. And yet that is central to what Diogenes in their time we do. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. No, that the Romans are, they're not exactly turning it into an original philosophy, but they are absolutely putting their own stamp on it. To put this into context,

there's a story that the Greek philosopher Plato said that Diogenes was Socrates gone mad. Now, you could look at what the Roman cynics are doing. They're trying to make a Roman cynic diogenes sort of gone sane again. And as a result, Roman Stoics have finally have quite a lot in common with Roman cynics. So Roman Stoics like Seneca are able to befriend the cynic Demetrius,

and there's quite a lot of accord, both political and intellectual and emotional, between them. So we're getting a movement, if you like, to me it seems there's more of a convergence between cynicism and stoicism in the first and second centuries AD, though they don't quite meet. Miriam Griffin, can we talk about Senegal in that regard?

Are we struggling to keep cynicism alive, as it were, compared with the power of stoicism at that time? Well, that's a very interesting way of putting it, I think. The problem is that they rather, the cynics rather disappear from the screen for a certain period before about the period of Seneca. That is, they're still talking about them, but we just don't know any particular figures. And then suddenly we begin to hear quite a lot about them. I think the role that Andrew was mentioning, the relationship with Stoism, is a very interesting one. Some of these features of cynicism

answer the objections that the Romans felt about stoicism, which was too theoretical. They thought they didn't have any eloquence and express themselves in very... I don't know. The stoics in very difficult ways, whereas the cynics didn't do that. John Mols, there's an epictetus wrote on cynicism

at the end of the first century. Is he taking the ideas of De Argenies forward or is he reinterpret them? Well, this bears on the conversation that we've just had between Miriam and Angie. I mean, Epictetus is a Greek. Of course, he's operating in the Roman context, and he teaches Roman citizens and Roman senators in his school. And one of his separate works is on cynicism, and it's the single chunkiest discussion of cynicism that survives from the ancient world.

and people aren't really very clear how to read it. Is it sort of a stoicized view? There's a very, very strong emphasis on the divine role of the cynic, which is, I think, alien to the original cynic perspective, and he's keen to get rid of the shamelessness. He says either they didn't do these acts or you shouldn't do those acts. But there is also an intellectual analysis there. He homes in on one most characteristic idea of the cynic.

that is the cynic as the scout or the spy. And when's using this as a metaphor, the cynic sort of advances out from the normal community and experiences the extremes of human toil and labour. And then he comes back and reports to the rest of us what it's like. So when gets an intellectual analysis, I think myself that it's rather an anemic and impoverished one compared with real cynicism.

Yes, and I think we should be careful not to give the impression that cynicism is sort of moniform at this time. Because it seems to me there are so many different kinds of cynicism in the Roman Empire because as well as the more serious adoptions of a certain lifestyle that we've been talking about, there are also sort of Roman aristocrats who are kind of attracted to cynicism because they see that it might be congenial to their desire to get rid of the imperial rule and to return to a republic.

And then there are these intriguing stories, aren't there, of Roman professional men who practice their jobs sort of Monday to Friday, as it were. And then at the weekend, sort of put on the gar, put on the cloak, took up their staff, took their knapsack, and went off being cynics for the weekend. I mean, there's some interesting modern parallels there. So we've got those sort of amateur casual cynics as well.

It's a very, very diverse philosophy, has infiltrated all sorts of layers of society. But can I just, that's fascinating actually, but what has come up in my reading of this and what's come from what you have said in your work is the assertion is that Jesus Christ was heavily influenced by the cynics and in what he, the way he, well,

let me stop there and you start there. John Mills, can you present the case for that? Right. Now there are huge problems here. It's immensely controversial. I mean, could Jesus speak Greek? How Hellenized was? He could speak Greek. He could pun between Greek and Aramaic.

He knew something about Greek culture. Were there real-life cynics that he could actually have met and observed? And they're probably aware in Gaderer, which is about 20 miles away from Nazareth. Would it have been an anathema to a devout Jew to observe these people and be influenced by them? Well, not necessarily because there's a cynic in Amaeus, about 120. who actually can be identified with a Jewish rabbi in the Talmud. So there are sort of possibilities here, but you obviously have to look at specific cases

to try and firm up the argument. And people quote things like, who is my mother, who are my brothers? And that is a rejection of family and an appropriation of the terminology of family to the Jesus movement. And it's found exactly in cynicism. And it's shocking and outrageous in the Jewish tradition.

Again, leave the dead to bury their dead. is an astonishing statement in a Jewish context, and there aren't really any parallels in the pagan context, apart from it in cynicism. And when Jesus tells his disciples how they should mission, he says, you're not to carry a purse with you, nor a satchel, you don't wear a sandals. There's a sort of compare and contrast exercise going on there

between Jesus and the disciples on the one hand and the cynics. And it would have been very difficult for people reading or hearing this not to think cynics. And so I think that the case that Jesus was to some extent influenced by cynicism is quite a compelling one. And obviously it has big consequences. I mean it tells you something about the diffusion of cynicism. And it means that you have to read Jesus as a rather radical figure when he says, if you want to follow me, give out all your money to the poor,

which is exactly what Cratis did when he followed Diogenes. He means it. Christians should not finesse this. Angie, do you think that a case put forward with his head ducked low by John Mills, but actually a very strong case, do you think that holds water? Well, I think it might hold water. I mean, certainly there are, we know that cynicism had spread very widely throughout the Roman Empire, so it's very likely that Jesus would have encountered

the odd wandering, vagrant cynic. And we know, and John has made persuasive, case for the parallels, whether that means that Jesus was influenced by cynicism seems to me another question. As far as I'm aware, and I'm happy to stand corrected here, the first absolute watertight evidence we have of an interface between cynicism and Christianity is in the second century AD with Peregrinus, who was a Christian who then converted to cynicism while he was imprisoned in Palestine. Interesting that he converted to cynicism in Palestine.

It shows that cynicism had clearly taken root in Palestine. And we know of other writers who are interesting in cynicism, such as the satiris lusian, who allegedly started off speaking Aramaic. So we know there are connections, but as far as I'm aware, it's the second century AD where we have absolutely clear evidence. But that doesn't mean to say that John's case is untrue. I think the jury is out. I would agree with that.

Certainly the Peregrina story is very interesting because some people would argue that the influence is the other way. That by that time it's quite clear that Christianity is well known and the similarities with cynicism are marked about property and about all men being brothers. Of course there are differences, but they're prepared to say that Jesus was a sophist. In other words, they compare him to a kind of preacher.

And this business about the Christians going around haranguing people and appealing to the lower orders is obviously similar. But some people would say, for example, that the self-immolation of Peregrina who burns himself on a pyre at Olympia can be seen as a martyrdom, maybe a martyrdom like Socrates, maybe a martyrdom like Jesus.

And when you read further on in Peregrinas that some days after he was met, Peregrinus was marching along wearing white robes and a garland, and one thinks about the people who were at the tomb of Jesus after the resurrection, one begins to wonder which direction these stories are actually going. What one does feel, actually,

is a lot of this is going to be coincidence, that Jesus was, after all, trying to change, to face the currency in his own way. I mean, he was challenging the legalistic approach of Judaism and he was emphasizing the spiritual values as opposed to the more material observance of religion. So why shouldn't there come to be a kind of coincidence? They're appealing to the same kind of people, the poor, the disadvantaged.

It's difficult to say more than that. Do you want to come back, John? A little bit. A figure who might be inserted between Jews, Jesus and the second century is St. Paul. Paul, yeah. Because it's demonstrable that Paul is greatly influenced by, again, diatribe style. And it's not his only style by any means.

And it's even demonstrable that he's read this utterly rubbishy third century Greek cynic author called Tellies. So he knows some of this stuff. And more interestingly, sometimes Paul, who's all things to all men and has to project himself differently in different contexts and has to, of course, appeal to new converts. Who are often Gentiles and awful Greeks sometimes presents himself as a sort of cynic figure and defines himself in parallel and contrast with the cynic.

So I think Paul is important transitional figure. There's one big question I want to ask before we end, but can we just quickly tuck in, John, asking quite a lot, that the legacy of cynicism in satire, which pushed right through the centuries, didn't it? arguably is still with us. Right. Do you want to pick it up in the Renaissance

with, say, Thomas Moore and so on? Yes, utopias. I mean, utopias can be a way of talking about the cynic way of life because utopias are sort of marginalized societies. They're often described in golden age terms. The cynics themselves can construct utopias. Moore's utopia, I think,

certainly has cynic elements. I mean, the guide figure, Raphael, who also has this Greek name, which means purveyor of nonsense, his son burnt, and he's got a long beard, and he seems to have a cloak, a single cloak. He looks to me like a cynic, and when you

read about the people of Utopia, they are at home everywhere, we've got sentiments like that, and that is cynic cosmopolitanism. And they have this peculiar marriage custom that husbands and wives before actually tying the knot must see each other naked.

And that is more spin on the Crattis Hipparchia story. So at least, I mean, how you sort of cast this out interpretably is very difficult, but at least it shows that cynicism is a vibrant thing. Well, we know Thomas Moore translated Lucius. Yes. And we know Lucian is a satirist

profoundly influenced by and interested in cynicism. So there is a very direct link to Thomas Moore's scholarship. Yes. I've got to come to this on there isn't enough time. Well, there is enough. Melanie Griffin, when did cynicism change its name to have the... When did the word cynicism become used in the way we use it today? Well, it's a bit debated, but we do know that in the 19th century,

the Germans, that systematic people, began to distinguish between cynicism and cynicism, that is, distinguish the sort of modern sense of cynical. And that's in a way going just the opposite direction from these utopies. be, is that is it's taking the negative side and applying it both to yourself. I don't accept any of the values of society. And also to other people in which you say, I don't think anybody here really means what he says. It's all pretence, all their moral stance are all pretence. Underneath, they're all children of nature taken in a very dark sense. And the real difference between the old cynics and this modern cynicism is I think that, however,

uncomplimentary the ancient cynics were about the way people behaved. Their aim was to improve them, to get them to live better. They cared about them. They were in cities and they were lecturing them, whereas the modern cynic in that sense just really despises people and think they all have the lowest motive and probably ends up despising himself as well. I enjoyed that a lot. There isn't time for the sort of answers at the length and intensity that you've been given, and I've just blathered. Don't, for enough seconds for me to say thank you all very much to Miriam Griffin, Angie Hobbs and John Moles. And next week we'll be discussing Samuel Johnson and his circle of friends, and thank you very much for listening.

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