In Our Time - Louis XIV: The Sun King

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

In 1661 the 23 year-old French king Louis the XIV had been on the throne for 18 years when his chief minister, Cardinal Mazarin, died. Louis is reported to have said to his ministers, “It is now time that I govern my affairs myself. You will assist me with your counsels when I ask for them [but] I order you to seal no orders except by my command… I order you not to sign anything, not even a passport, without my command, and to render account to me personally each day”So began the personal rule of Louis XIV, which lasted a further 54 years until his death in 1715. From his newly-built palace at Versailles, Louis was able to project an image of himself as the centre of gravity around which all of France revolved: it’s no accident that he became known as the Sun King. He centralized power to the extent he was able to say ‘L’etat c’est moi’: I am the state. Under his rule France became the leading diplomatic, military and cultural power in Europe.WithCatriona Seth Marshal Foch Professor of French Literature at the University of OxfordGuy Rowlands Professor of Early Modern History at the University of St AndrewsandPenny Roberts Professor of Early Modern History at the University of WarwickProducer: Luke Mulhall

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, podcasts. Thanks for downloading this episode of In Our Time. There's a reading list to go with it on our website, and you can get news about our programmes if you follow us on Twitter at BBC In Our Time. I hope you enjoyed the programme. Hello, in 1661, the 23-year-old French king Louis XIV had been on the throne for 18 years when his chief minister died. In response, Louis is reported to have said to his remaining ministers,

it's now time that I govern my affairs myself. I order you, not to sign anything, not even a passport, without my command. So began the personal rule of Louis XIV, which lasted a further 54 years until his death in 1715. From his newly built palace at Versailles, Louis projected an image of himself

as the centre around which all of France revolved. He became known as the Sun King. He centralized power to the extent he was able to say, Leto say me, I am. the state. Under his rule, France became the leading diplomatic, military and cultural power in Europe. Will me to discuss Louis XIV, Katrina Seth, Marshall Foch Professor of French Literature at the University of Oxford, Guy Rowlands, Professor of Early Modern History at the University of St Andrews, and Penny Roberts, Professor of Early Modern History at the University of Warwick.

Penny, can you just tell us briefly something about his early days? Yes, so he's born in 1638. He's... the third Bourbon ruler of France, so a relatively new dynasty. He comes to the throne when he's only four years old, and therefore understanding Louis' outlook is very much that he was born to be king. He probably doesn't remember a time when he wasn't king, and therefore, you know, his preparation is very much around the importance of his dynasty establishing that dynasty. He was thought of as being a gift from God when he was born. Why was that? That's right. He was known as Giordoni, the gift from God. And that was because he appeared rather late in his father's

reign. And again, this is about the importance of dynasty, the importance of that tenastic succession. So when he's born in 1638, towards the end of obviously Louis XIII's reign, although they weren't aware of it then, but his parents both in their 30s. So he was long awaited, very well received. A brother arrived soon afterwards to shore up the dynasty further, but that was clearly very crucial and again a reflection of the importance of establishing dynasty as we'll see later in the rain as well. How steady was the family that he was born into at that time and what did they make of him in the sense of how do they figure him out but what did they decide to do with him? Well it was very much about as with all rulers as with all kings as I say establishing the dynasty establishing the health

establishing the education or preparing him for what would be to come. So it was about ensuring that he had the right kind of education, the right kind of surroundings, the right kind of company. A mixture of sort of classical education, but also arts. So as we know later in Louis Raine, he is a very accomplished dancer, for instance, the importance of the culture of the court, the fact that he was born into a divine right monarchy, so the emphasis on that, which again is very important in terms of cementing the place of the Bourbons within Europe more generally. So the idea of being a divine right monarch,

well, he's only four, so he doesn't know what he is with a bit of luck. But does that begin to grow with him as he grows? That is who you are. Yes, I mean, that's extremely well established over a long period of time, and I think it's no coincidence that he is called Louis, again, sort of with harking back to the French monarchy, St. Louis, and the idea of that sort of divine relationship

between the king and God. That isn't something to which all rulers can aspire, so it's well established. Thank you. Guy Rolans, when he inherited the throne in 1643, what was France's position in Europe? Well, France is in the middle of the most monumental war in 1643. It had been at war for eight years. Europe itself had been raging with conflicts since 1618,

and that's a quarter of a century. So what you have is the situation that you have the start of a royal minority, a regency government, taking control of France in the middle of the most raging war. It's a war that has gone badly for France in the first few years. It is now starting to go much, much better. But France is now in a race between bankruptcy and achieving an acceptable peace,

both in the Holy Roman Empire, Germany, and with Spain. So can you just go a little further into this civil wars that were going on? It's easier to call them civil wars all over France at the time. For several years, France is fairly pretty much. peaceful internally, but the tensions come to the surface and in 1648 France basically goes bankrupt and at that point the Supreme Law Court of France,

the Paris Parliament, decides that it wants to intervene to alter the way in which government is undertaken. That precipitates a first civil war which is more of a standoff around Paris between the royal government and the leaders of civic society, the Supreme Law Court. Basically the crown loses that particular battle. In early

1649 they're forced into a humiliating treaty with their own subject, in which they're forced to dismantle certain aspects of the royal government, and that creates a power vacuum throughout much of France. That in turn causes a second set of civil wars in various provinces out there a long, long way from Paris, where various grandees are trying to fill the power vacuum. So what effect does this have on his education? It's very, very disruptive. In January 1649, the royal family basically has to flee Paris. And it flees to the palace of Saint-Germain-Aul-on-Lay, not too far to the west of Paris nowadays,

but for sanctuary and for safety. Do they scheme to get back in it? How do they get back in power? Very much. I mean, you have to remember that the person who's in charge of Louis' upbringing is his mother. His mother is highly dependent upon a man called

Jewell Mazarin, Cardinal Mazarin, who's the chief minister at this time. And Mazarin becomes a hate figure, but he is also one of the greatest schemers in French history. He has to get out of Paris because they try to mob him, don't they? Yes, he's at very serious risk of losing his life on numerous occasions. In fact, he has to go into exile on at least two occasions. The royal family is in a situation where it's lost its capital

and it is having to mobilize support out in the provinces, particularly those provinces surrounding Paris. What luck does it have? The luck it has is that the grandees are so split amongst themselves that the strongest group is going to win, the strongest group being the royal family itself and particularly the immediate royal family. So various princes of the blood go into rebellion at different times

and this precipitates a really major civil war from 1651 to 53 which devastates whole swathes of central France very much on the same sort of scale that you got in Ireland in the 1640s which is pretty bad until things settle down after Louis' coronation. So he doesn't inherit a happy place, a happy landscape, does he, Louis? No, he doesn't inherit a happy landscape. But one of the things which the conflict does is allow for a change in the way power is exercised in France. And it's very much as a result of the front that Louis will turn into what has been called an absolute monarch.

And we need to say a little bit about what an absolute monarch is, I think and possibly to qualify that term. An absolute monarch is someone who is answer. only to himself or in the case of the kings of France answerable to God. And that's very much the way the French monarchy is presented after Louis has been crowned in the cathedral in France. When French... Yes, and when French kings are crowned, it's referred to not as a coronation, but as a sacre, so a consecration, because the most holy part of the ceremony is, of course, the anointing.

and the anointing which takes place thanks to Holy Oil, which it has said, was sent down from heaven by the Holy Spirit. So Louis really does have in his mind, but also in the eyes of those around him, a direct link to God. He is God's lieutenant on earth. And he takes this seriously for the rest of his life. Louis takes this seriously for the rest of his life.

Do people around him take it as seriously? People around him take it seriously. And another important part of the coronation ceremony is the symbolic union with France. A ring is put on the king's finger in order to unite him to France. And that is how he becomes this sort of, he is one with France, he is France. And in that respect, his exercise of power is seen by him, but also overall generally, as being the expression of what France needs and wants.

Do we know what this 15-year-old thought about this? What we know is not so much what he thought about it, but there will be some disquiet in various circles over Louise's exercise of power and what is presented as seamless and flawless absolute power is in fact moderated not so much by checks and balances as it would be in a constitutional monarchy, but by the fact that there are a number of privileges which remain,

and a lot of these privileges are very long-standing privileges. So, for instance. Well, corporations, for instance, will have privileges. The church has the privilege of appointing its own courts and using canon law and so on. So there are cases in which actually the king can be overruled de facto. He's also an absolute monarch, but not in... In fact, is he overruled? Well, he's overruled in the sense that there are parallel circuits of power in which he cannot intervene.

There's also, if we think of modern autocrats, one of the great questions for modern autocrats is naming their successor. That is a field in which Louis has absolutely no power. The fundamental laws of the realm, the Lois Fundamental, decree that his first son, or failing lap, the first son of his first son, etc, will be his successor. He couldn't decide in the way that some autocrats do to appoint a favorite general or a nephew and so on. So there are in reality some limits to his absolute power. The reflection at this stage is that France towards the end of his reign became so powerful and important. And it had a very bedraggled and uneasy beginning in his hands, isn't it? That's absolutely true.

And France becomes important. But France, very much like, you know, we all love France, France looks more important possibly than it really is. The appearance is incredibly impressive. But throughout, there are, for instance, problems of near France. bankruptcy, which drag on through the whole of the 18th century and contribute to the revolution at the end of the 18th century. Thank you. Penny, Penny Roberts, what did he have to contend with? We've talked about him being, and you've qualified the idea of him being an absolute monarch. What constraints were there? Well, in theory, that's a great idea for actually

that everything has to be approved by the king, but France is an extremely large country, of course, with an extremely large population, very difficult to govern. So everything has to be delegated. in terms of the King's authority. Many things need to be negotiated. So the reality of absolute power, and actually consultation is part of the understanding of what an absolute ruler should do that you're supposed to negotiate and consult with your people.

And there are various mechanisms for doing this. And so there's a careful balance to be shown between the theory of Louis' power and how it's expressed, how it's demonstrated, how it's recognised, and how people look at him as the fount of power and the way that it needs to be exercised through his ministers, through his officials,

like the Antondon, for instance, in the provinces. So there are various layers of restriction, if you like, in terms of how he operates, in terms of the Parliament we mentioned already, the law courts, the nobility, of course, around Louis, and there's quite a strong debate about the power of the nobility during his period. but it's actually about establishing Louis as the focus of power

and therefore, even though he may need to delegate and consult, and actually, for instance, the provincial estates, the taxation and so on, that there has to be negotiation. There may be carefully modified threats from the Crown that if you don't do this, we're going to remove your privileges, which is really a revenue-raising exercise to some degree, and it's kind of understood in both ways. So it's about getting your power recognised

as much as an idea of exercising power in such an untrammeled way that there are no checks and balances upon it. So from what Katrina said, I'm turning to you now, Guy. It was a heck of a task. It's been said, it's a very big country for the time. Very big country. And he's reaching out to all these people.

How does he manage it? With great difficulty, but with enormous energy, he is absolutely blessed with huge quantities of energy for most of his life. I think what Louis does is very shrewdly make people realize that he, is the one who's the ultimate arbiter, but he's not necessarily the one who's going to

always take all the decisions. And so what he... What's the difference? Well, ultimately, he is quite willing to allow his ministers, his secretaries of state, to take all sorts of decisions about small details of logistics,

of judicial reform and that sort of thing, though ultimately he is always the one who will sign off on the final product, if it's, for example, a new codification of law. I mean, we're living in an era this time when people are becoming more and more obsessed with sovereignty. And what they're also doing is they're breaking down sovereignty into a whole series of sovereign powers. And what

really counts is who ultimately has the right to exercise of sovereign powers. When you're saying sovereignty is different sovereign powers. Can you give us two or three examples of that? Yes, absolutely. I can. In the case of Louis XIV's France, the most important would be the making of legislation. The second most important... Is that in the Palermo? No, initially it's done in the King's Council. Right. And then it's sent to the Parliamon. the law courts for registration. And he has quite a battle in the 1660s to make them simply register these laws as he wants them registered. But he wins. He wins. It takes a decade and a half for the message to get through, but ultimately he wins. But Louis' enormous energy is something

that nobody could have predicted in 1661. Everybody expects that eventually he'll get bored, he'll want to go off hunting and with his mistress is much more, and sooner or later, somebody else will become Chief Minister, and it doesn't happen. And that's entirely to do with his energy? It is indeed. And by that time, it's a silly, imagine a silly question, by that time is he very well educated, well capable of

taking care of himself in debates with these people who is telling to do things? It strikes me as someone who's read a lot of his correspondence as being extraordinarily well informed. He makes sure that he's very well informed, and one of the ways he does this is by not just

listening to his ministers and taking good counsel from them. He also talks to lots of his courtiers. He's very friendly with lots of his grandees who inhabit his court. And so he always keeps multiple channels of access open to him at all times so he knows what is going on. Now let's turn to the business of Versailles, Katrina. Tell us what effect it had. That's it. Versailles wasn't actually built by Louis XIV. Versailles was built exactly 400 years ago by his father and it's a hunting lodge. initially. It's, I think, a tribute to Louis' vision that what was initially simply a hunting lodge near forests, which were known to have very good prospects for anyone who wanted to hunt, that it could

become the seat of power. And what Louis does is he creates this palace and gardens, which have a complete decorative programme which is there to showcase his greatness. So there is an iconographic program which shows Apollo, the God with whom he's often identified, the Sun, we can talk about Louise the Sun King, and which is all there to show his greatness, to magnify his greatness. He also uses it as his palace and decides to settle there because it allows him to move power and to concentrate it around himself. Until then, he'd lived in Paris, essentially, and in Paris in the Louvre, which had been redecorated and improved. But what he'd does is he says, since I am the real seat of power, whoever is interested in power must

follow me. So where I am, there is power. And what that does is it splits the political power, the state, which he represents, from, for instance, the economic power of the merchants and so on, who are still in Paris. And what Louis does is he makes it impossible for there to be another front in a sense, in that he calls upon any member of the nobility who is in. He is in interested in becoming important to be near him. So that means that all these noblemen who were sort of feudal or post-fudal lords in their provinces actually have to rush up to Versailles and Versailles becomes this huge palace in which there are more and more rooms built because there are more and more people who want

to live there because you want to be there at all times. You want to be there as the king goes to church, for instance. You want to be able to stop him on the way past. You want to be able to talk to him to catch his eye when he's looking for someone to reward. And a lot of the nobleman will accept absolutely appalling conditions. You know, they'll be housed in tiny little rooms, you know, above the kitchens where it smells bad,

with no fireplace or no window. And they'll do it. Why? Because it is a way of progressing in society, of hoping that you'll be given some form of reward so you'll be allowed the command of a regiment, for instance, or so on. But that's a very important point, because in fact, people are not locked up in the gilded cage of Versailles. They're there for certain months of the year, and people go on a sort of rotational basis with service at court. So the rest of the year, they may be partly on their estates, or they may actually be commanding those very regiments that you've just described.

But he gave his nobles very menial jobs, very menial jobs, from his waking up until he's going to bed. Can you describe a few of those, please, Benny? The idea of being in attendance to Louise's every need meant that the closer you were to the king and more to those intimate moments of getting up, going to bed, eating and doing other things. The Asian public? Yes. And this was a very important moment, of course, because if you were close to the king at these moments, you had his ear. You were able to benefit from his patronage. You were able to make use of him in that sense.

So I think it's a two-way understanding, but of course you're also at risk of having his displeasure if you don't please him in the way that's appropriate. There was a man who got a title because he held the night shirt. A really menial servant should not go anywhere near the king. The only people that should go anywhere near the king's body are those people of a very, very high status indeed. Not because it's just you can trust them, but simply because that is the way the great chain of being at this time actually works. And I think part of the demeaning of the nobility is the fact that this attracts a great deal of satire about them carrying out these menial tasks.

So there's a figure La Brieux who writes the character about Louis XIV's court and he's talking about the courtiers basically being slaves to the king. For instance, when Louis gets up in the morning and has to get dressed, there will be a chain in order for him to get his night shirt off and put his shirt on. There will be a chain of courtiers. by order of precedence who will be passing the nightshirt along

and the highest ranking one in the room will be the one who will hand him the nightshirt. And so, for instance, if suddenly his brother were to walk in, then the nightshirt would be passed to his brother and his brother will pass it to him. So the idea is that... Every morning. Every morning, absolutely every morning.

And the same is true for his nightshirt, but also for his, you know, the candlestick he will have by his bed and so on. So it's very much about showing people to be important. And what Louis does very successfully is he uses the vanity of his courtiers and he markets that in a sense. That's the way he trades on their vanity. They all want, they all aspire to be recognised by being allowed to do, to perform a task like that.

These are all exalted status markers, basically. But nothing exalted about passing a shirt along the line, isn't it? Well, there is, depending upon who it's to, essentially. This is the person next to God in the sense and important, so it's very important. But we should remember that this is very much part of a world view in which hierarchy is all important. And your position on that ladder of the hierarchy is reflected in all sorts of behaviour at all sorts of times. Why did they put up with it? The nobles. It's ingrained in the culture for hundreds of years.

The thing that you've got to get right is make sure that you're not a, offending people by getting them to do the wrong thing for you at the wrong level. And that's what a number of kings had previously done, involving favourites and jumped-up valets who had been propelled into great status at court. Louis makes very, very sure that the status that people have is internalised in his mind so that he doesn't make these sorts of mistakes. I don't think any other ruler has ever managed to retain so much in their minds. so that he can actually play the game properly without offending people.

And you might be able to marry your daughter to a nobleman who's rather higher place in you, because you have the ear of the king. And your son might be able to be given a regiment, which is a prestigious regiment. So it's all about making a fortune for yourself, but also for your family, and ensuring that you are as close as possible to the seat of power. You come to Bessai or you don't get this, that or the other. Well, let's start with the military. military power. He reformed this.

Yes, I mean, it's a really ramshackle machine that he inherits from Louis the 13th and Cardinal Richelier at the start of his reign. It's constantly breaking down. There's enormous amounts of desertion because basically they haven't got the administrative system working effectively.

And what Louis does in the course of the 1660s and 1670s is he does two things. The first thing he does is to try and make sure that every officer has a commission signed personally by the king, so that they are much less likely to look to the next noble in command above them and instead have a direct sense of loyalty to the king himself. And that is a very good way of

stopping whole regiments going over into rebellion by following rebellious princes of the blood. What takes rather longer to achieve is the recasting of the administrative system. Now, what we have to remember is that the regiments and the companies of the army are effectively franchises. Officers of both combat specialists, specialists and their administrators who run their own finances and even inject their own finances partly, at least, into their units. And what you have to do is to improve the system of pay and allowances and career structures so that you will be able to sustain this force on a much bigger scale than before. And this is where his appointment of people who knew how to

manipulate and collect taxes is very important because the tax revenue goes up and up. The tax revenue does go up and up before it goes down and down in the last 10. to 15 years of the rain. But fundamentally, the foundations which are put into place by Jean-Baptiste Colbert, his finance minister in the 1660s and 1670s, carry France through way into the 18th century. What Colbert does is he equips Louis with a financial system that enables you to have a standing army in peacetime of around 150,000 men.

That is roughly four to five times as much as back in the 1620s. And the way you do this is that you are much more assiduous at tackling corruption and rake-offs. But how does he make them do it? I mean, they're doing things they didn't do before. They're doing things where they're under his thumb. They've had civil wars before. They've rebelled before and won the rebellion. But they've fallen into line.

Yes, and they've fallen into line as a result of ministers incentivising them to behave better. These are the financiers. This is a financial system which is basically contracted out to entrepreneurs and they take rake-offs. And what you've got to try and do is keep the rake-offs to a reasonable level. But you also have to make sure enough money's coming in from the taxpayer in the first place. So what Colbert does is he rebalances the tax system so that the poor peasantry is not quite carrying as much as it was before

and more is being carried by the trade and the commerce sector in the form of what you might call early modern VAT. Colbert once said that taxation is the art of plucking the goose to get with the least amount of hissing. And what Louis manages to do with Colbert is generate a financial system over the course of the rain that basically sees rebellions and revolts dying out because you're starting to force the elites

to cough up a bit more as well. I think if we can continue on what Colbert does economically to make France's finances sounder, one of the things which I think casts a very long shadow is that he develops exports, France's exports, and in particular in the luxury sector. Now that turns out to be very cunning. Why did he get there?

How did he get there? Well, he got there because his economic principles were quite simple. He lives in a country which basically has no gold mines to speak of, and he needs more gold. And so his theory was, and it's an accurate one under the circumstances, that the only way he could increase the gold in the realm was by getting it from elsewhere. And how could he get a gold from elsewhere?

Well, obviously you could hope to fight and win battles and so on, but you could also peacefully export goods, and therefore it was a trade surplus. And one of the things the French were very good at, for instance, was making tapestries in the goblin or in Beauvais. These were hugely sought after, and one of the things Colbert and Louis will manage to do together is to promote such industries.

we switch to another big part of his rule, the church? Yes, the religious history of the situation in France for the previous hundred years is absolutely crucial to understanding Louis's approach to the position of religious minorities, particularly the Huguenots, who've been very much weakened in the previous sort of 50 years, but really, so for instance they didn't have the sort of noble leadership that they'd had before. So they were in quite a vulnerable position. Nevertheless, and I think this goes along with thinking about how Louis thought about his power, it was very important for him to have a situation in which his subjects looked to him as the ultimate authority.

Did the fact that he called himself a god, a divine king, did that help, or did they take it seriously, or what was going on there? Well, the Huguenots had always expressed loyalty to the divinely appointed ruler, indeed Protestants and Catholics had the same belief system with regard to the divine right of kings, as we know of course the English case. So it's not a case of them not having loyalty to the monarchy, but of course it can always be portrayed that they have alternative sources of loyalty and also, of course, the idea that they might ally

with Protestant powers elsewhere in Europe. So there's always, and I think this is a driver for many rulers, a need to clamp down on religious minorities. It's not only the Protestants, in fact, but it's actually groups within the Catholic Church as well that Louis sees as generating an interest in separate focuses of authority. Jansenists, the quietists. Louis is a supporter of the Jesuits. He has a Jesuit confessor. The Jansenists and the Jesuits are very much at loggerheads. There's also his relationship with

the papacy, which is, and again, this is quite traditional for French kings, a bit fraught, because one of the issues with the papacy is that the crown is actually exercising its right to bring in revenue from vacant bishoprics, which the papacy does not like. So the Pope actually says he's not going to confirm Louis's appointments to Bishop Bricks unless he steps back from this. So there is a bit of a power struggle there. And I think with the Protestants, we can't say that Louis actually won. He won in the sense that he managed to get them out of France, but France, as we know, because Britain was one of the neighboring countries which benefited greatly from what's called the revocation of Lédi de Nantes. So when Louis denounced what had been an agreement, an edict

promulgated by Henri Gattre, which tolerated Protestants, and the Protestants, in France, left in their great majority, and went to Britain, went to Switzerland, went to the low countries and so on, and exported their knowledge, their power. And as we know, for instance, if you walk around Spitalfields in London, there is incredible Huguenot heritage. And economically, it was a disastrous decision on Louise's part. Katrina, when did he become known as a Sun King, generally known as a Sun King? Louis is known as the Sun King for much of his reign

and it starts really when he's born as the association with the sun because a medal is struck and the medal is already depicting him as a young Apollo and when Louis is 15... The god of the sun in mythology Apollo, the Sun god

and when he's 15 Louis dances in a court ballet he's a very good dancer and he dances again the role of Apollo and this will be seen as sort of symbol of who he really is. And a number of other court events, court ballets, but also carousel, the carousel, which mirrors the course of the sun etymologically, all contribute to him being depicted as Apollo and as the sun king. And Louis adopts as one of the symbols of his power

a son with the rays going out from it. And it very much exemplifies the way in which he sees his personal exercise of power. And that is not so much a pyramid as the monarchy had been depicted previously, but as the sun with him at the centre and everything coming from him and going out from him. It's worth pointing out that many of these sun images actually have a face upon them. And that's important because people think at this time in terms of the king's gaze, which is ubiquitous, going into every corner of the realm. You don't know whether the king is in fact paying attention to you or watching you. He may well be doing so, so you better be on good behaviour.

So this is accepted by the population as part of the way he ruled? Yes, because the alternative has been a hundred years of civil war feuding, vengeance blood feuds, and it's been a disaster for much of France. Penny Roberts, his official wife was Maria Theresa of Spain. But when she died, he married one of his mistresses, Francoise Dobina, Madame de Baton. why did he choose there had been lots of mistresses why did you choose her she would she be in a governor

since she? Yes a very strong tradition again of a royal mistress at the French court who has their own household which is extremely powerful and this idea we have of the mistress antitre so as by the title of mistress at the court Louis had a number of quite well-established mistresses and Francoise de Bonnier Madame de Montenon as she becomes known

is the last, if you like, because she establishes herself as the queen, not as the queen, was the wife of the king. So he's married to marry Theresa in 1660, and it is until she dies in 1883 that he's able to marry Madame de Montanour, which is something unusual. You know, normally royal mistress is established for a number of years, a number of children are born, and indeed Louis goes on to legitimise some of those illegitimate children

for dynastic reasons to make sure to shore up the sort of situation in terms of the monarchy. Yes, there were a lot of illegitimate children who he did legitimise and now to see you're much bothered about it. Well, I think people are bothered about it, but it's allowed to happen, let's put it that way.

And Madame de Montespan, who had been the mistress who produced in fact seven children for Louis, I think four of whom reached adulthood. And Madame de Mantonel was actually the governess of those children. So that's how Louis gets to. know her. And the fact that the

illegitimate children are made legitimate is not so much, I think, to shore up the dynasty, but it's to put an extra layer between the king and the nobility. I don't think he ever imagines that these children are ever going to rule. He thinks he'll have a legitimate descendants, but the possibility is there, and in a sense the threat is there.

And de facto, you know, the same happens nowadays when there is a royal prince born in the UK. You'll have newspapers, which will say, ah, you know, so where is X now in the order of precedence? And what this does is just knock everybody down by a certain number of pegs. And it's another good way of saying, I can do exactly what I want, even though these children are illegitimate in the eyes of the church, which is very important, and therefore theoretically could not have the same rights as legitimate children.

But I think we have to remember that in the last years of the reign, there's a hecotum of the royal family. They're just dying off. And actually, in 1714, when the Duke Dumain and the car, Compton Toulouse are written into the line of succession. There is a real concern that it might well fall to one of their descendants in due course. After all, eight or nine hundred years earlier, this entire royal line had started with an illegitimate man. So it is quite possible that it could happen again.

I think the position of the illegitimate children has helped greatly by these two men, Maine and Toulouse, being extremely effective administrators that Louis uses. The Comte de Toulouse becomes the Grand Admiral of France and is one of the co-organising. of the Navy. And the Duke du Main becomes the Colonel General of the Swiss forces in French service, vitally important mercenaries, and he also becomes the grandmaster of the artillery. And when you consider that stamped on every single one of Louis' canon are the words, the last argument of the king, I think this sends out a very strong message as to how important these illegitimate children actually are. Penin. Yes, and of course he did have a legitimate

descendant. There was the Grand-Dauphin, Louis, also grandsons and sons. great-grandsons. But the worst possible outcome for Louis, as Guy has mentioned, is the fact that his line dies before him. His son dies. So his son dies, then the son of his son dies, in a very short space of time, a matter of months in 1711, 1712. And so it lands on his great-grandson, who again is a minor. Again, we have a situation in which a regency has to be established, and there's a danger of instability within the monarchy. That's the worst possible outcome for Louis, especially. especially after such a long rain, when he thought he could establish. Because by the time, if we can just summarize for one second here,

by the time we'd be going into his reign and what he did this, he did that, he'd built up France to be more powerful in a way that it had, well, not say never been, one doesn't, I don't know that. But it was much more, much more powerful than it had been when he took on the throne. Yes, I mean, France becomes the most important power in Europe, the most dominant power in Europe, which of course means that it has many enemies as well. But that's really, yes. I mean, Louis really achieves what he's setting out to do that.

Is it basically to do with his direction of his advisors and his determination to get what he wanted? I think that's certainly part of it, and certainly part of that is in the importance of appointing good advisors. At the same time, very much lining their own pockets. So again, for ministers, it's a great position to be in. Yeah, we call the ministers, as they did at the time, but we have to culturally think of them, really, as the King's servants,

the King's administrators of his estate in many ways. And what do you do with a good servant? you reward a good servant. So we mentioned earlier that people end up marrying their daughters after dukes and peers. Well, several of the ministers are allowed by Louis

to marry their daughters off to dukes and peers. So Louis is building up these ministers at the same time as seeking their advice. Guy, you've discovered evidence that he lied to his own ambassadors. How did he get away with that? Well, he gets away with it

because the ambassadors in Constantinople, Istanbul, and believes every word he's being told. I mean, they say that a diplomat is an honest man or woman sent abroad to lie for their country. Well, you're much better at lying for your country if you believe that you're telling the truth. And so diplomats abroad have very limited amounts of information coming their way about other parts of Europe. And so they are basically being told what the king wants them to know from the hub at Versailles. Catherine, and let's turn to the cultural legacy. He really is, I think, a man who is genuinely fond of the arts.

And in that respect, Apollo, the sun god, who is also the god of the arts, is a very good model to use, to embody in some ways his qualities. And one of the aspects of Louis Xerose's legacy in the arts, which is still, I think, very important today, is the Comedie de Frances. if we're just going to take one example. There are quarrels amongst the troops, the theatre troops in Paris. And what does Louis do?

He creates a single troop, and that becomes the Teatro Franca, which is the current Comédie Francaise. He loves the theatre. He protects musicians, too. He likes music very much. He organises court music. There's music for the army,

music for public ceremonies, music for the church. And we know, for instance... And you particularly for the Moli and Rééé and He's fond of racine and moliere. Amongst composers, he's fond of Lully and De La Land. For instance, De La Land writes the symphony for Les Soupes du Roi, so the music specifically for the king's dinners.

And there's one of them which we know is of the symphony, the one the king particularly liked. So he's actually expressing an opinion, showing his taste. And he's very much, I think, a man of culture. I think between the 1640s and 1670s, there's an enormous program going on to basically wrestle the mantle of civilisation core of Europe from Italy and to bring it to France, to make France the real cultural hub

of Europe. And, you know, this... Yes, he does. Very much, if you just look at the taste of the 18th century, and if you look at the way in which, for example, the French language becomes the international language of diplomacy, partly through the ubiquity of French diplomats in the 17th and 18th centuries, but partly also because of the beauty of the language, as it's seen at the time. English and German seen as barbaric languages until well into the 19th century. And culture is an extremely important projection of power,

both for internal consumption and external consumption. So when those come to the people come to the court from, the ambassadors that we were talking about as well from other places, Louis' court becomes the model for other rulers to follow. Well, we're coming to the end of our time now, but can you each of you tell us what is political, what his overall legacy has been? Should we start with you, Katrina?

think his overall legacy is one which casts a very long shadow, and it's the centralisation of power, which we tend to associate with the Jacobins and with much later regime. But I think Louis is the one who really starts concentrating power and centralising power, and France still operates that way nowadays. More immediately, I think, for the 18th century, that Louis the 14th legacy is a terrible one for his successors. It is the hardest political act in history to follow. And neither of the Why? Because as I said, it involves the amount of energy and the devotion to hoovering up material about your courtiers, about your realm, that neither of his two successors really seem to have the same degree of aptitude for. Pauline?

Well, I think Louis establishes a really important model for rulers to follow, and he exemplifies in the end what majesty is seen to be, and we still, in a sense, interpreted him in that way. So his legacy is perfect in that way. arguably, of course, the foundations for all that seem to be wrong with the Anseum regime, as others come to see it, is laid during his rule, part of the sort of basis, obviously, of the cracking within the system. Thanks to Penny Roberts, Guy Rowlands and Katrina Seth, and to our studio engineer Duncan Hannant.

Next week, microchondria, the power inside each animal cells. Thank you for listening. And the In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material from Melvin and his guests. So what didn't you say that you'd like to have said? I think one of the most important achievements of Louis Xeroyne is also the building up of the Navy in France. A Navy that they also called the Royal Navy, confusingly at that time.

When Louis takes power in 1661, he's got a handful of vessels and a handful of galleys in the Mediterranean. By the 30 years later, France has got the largest fleet in the world. There's been the most enormous programme of shipbuilding. Arguably too much money has gone into the shipbuilding and not enough into actually making the system work when it's afloat. But you go from having about one or two thousand cannon available for your ships to about 10,000 cannon available for your ships within 30 years.

the corresponding number of ships increases as well. Yeah, and this is really extremely important, again, for the extension of Louis' power. If he's going to compete with other powers in Europe and, of course, the power of the Dutch, and increasingly the English as well, in expanding across the globe and economically, but also in terms of gaining territory.

We haven't really talked about Louis going into different areas of the world, like New France, into the Indian Ocean. They set up commercial companies. in the same way that, yeah, as other countries do, into Africa, into, you know, and he's also interested in sort of expanding his diplomatic interests also into places like Siam, for instance, and sees the empire as it's established in Siam himself as that kind of projection of empire. This is a way that these sorts of things can be done. So he's, again, it's probably a reflection of his energy and his interest, I think,

his real curiosity about the world that he wants. to sort of, but also because of the need to expand economically and, you know, in order to compete as if you're going to establish yourself as the most important sort of power in your way. I know you answered this, but I wouldn't mind asking it again. I'm still puzzled by how much taxation he could ring out of his subjects, how much more than it ever happened before on a different scale altogether. It is a bit puzzling, yeah. I mean, we don't have enough of the financial records to be absolutely sure of this. What we do know is, that Jean-Baptiste Colbert

dismantles the networks of financiers that his predecessor Nicola Fuque had run, which had been basically money had just leaked everywhere in that system. And he keeps a smaller group of financiers under tighter control than ever before.

The auditing system is more effective. So it's not so much that more taxation is being collected. It's just that less of it's getting stuck to sticky fingers on route before it gets to the King's coffers. And when it does get to the King's coffers,

they also have better protocols by the 1680s to make sure that it's spent more effectively than before. Well, it is very important as well. I mentioned the size of the population of France. It's like 20 million in this period. As compared to Spain is what's something like 9. I think England, perhaps 3. It's, you know, so really the sheer scale of the taxation base.

It's about 7 or 8 in Great Britain as a heart. including the North American colonies, but it's a third of the size of France. And yet, for all Louis' improvement of his fiscal system during this period, I mean, Britain outstrips him with a much smaller population by the 1700s. And the reason is because it's got effectively parliamentary sanction for taxation and more importantly, parliamentary sanction for credit and for safeguarding credit instruments in the way that France is still considered a bit of an arbitrary country. You can never quite guarantee you're going to get your money back.

I mean, I know things have moved on, but isn't it the case also that the nobility in France are not involving themselves in commerce to the same extent as elsewhere? I know by the end of the rain, they're being given greater sort of approval to do so, but they're still being held back, and it's true in Spain to some extent as well. But that's always said to be one of the things is that they're not as involved in commerce as they could be because of the idea of derogation where it derogates from your status as a noble. And to the producer, Lou.

You'd like a cup of tea. That would be very nice. Happy minute one would be very nice. If there's one available, thank you. Yeah, definitely. Hello, I'm Jeremy Bowen, the BBC's international editor. For nearly 40 years, I've been reporting from some of the most complex and dangerous places in the world.

In my new 10-part series, Frontlines of Journalism, I'm taking you to some of the most difficult stories I've had to cover. Six mortar rounds landed in or around the graveyard. You get a bit emotional about it. to look at the obstacles that get in the way of the truth and how journalists, like me, navigate around them. It is never definitive. We can have this argument.

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