In Our Time - Margery Kempe and English Mysticism

Episode Date: June 2, 2016

To celebrate Melvyn Bragg’s 27 years presenting In Our Time, five well-known fans of the programme have chosen their favourite episodes. Author and columnist Caitlin Moran has picked the episode on the English medieval mystic Margery Kempe and recorded an introduction to it. Margery Kempe (1373-1438) produced an account of her extraordinary life in a book she dictated, "The Book of Margery Kempe." She went on pilgrimage to Jerusalem, to Rome and Santiago de Compostela, purchasing indulgences on her way, met with the anchoress Julian of Norwich and is honoured by the Church of England each 9th November. She sometimes doubted the authenticity of her mystical conversations with God, as did the authorities who saw her devotional sobbing, wailing and convulsions as a sign of insanity and dissoluteness. Her Book was lost for centuries, before emerging in a private library in 1934.This In Our Time episode was first broadcast in June 2016. The image (above), of an unknown woman, comes from a pew at Margery Kempe's parish church, St Margaret’s, Kings Lynn and dates from c1375. With Miri Rubin Professor of Medieval and Early Modern History at Queen Mary, University of LondonKatherine Lewis Senior Lecturer in History at the University of HuddersfieldAndAnthony Bale Professor of Medieval Studies at Birkbeck University of LondonProducer: Simon Tillotson Reading list:John H. Arnold and Katherine J. Lewis (eds.), A Companion to the Book of Margery Kempe, (D. S. Brewer, 2010)Anthony Bale (trans.), The Book of Margery Kempe (Oxford University Press, 2015)Santha Bhattacharji, God is an Earthquake: The Spirituality of Margery Kempe (Darton, Longman and Todd, 1997)Anthony Goodman, Margery Kempe and her World (Longman, 2002)Karma Lochrie, Margery Kempe and the Translations of the Flesh (University of Pennsylvania Press, 1991)Gail McMurray Gibson, The Theater of Devotion: East Anglian Drama and Society in the Late Middle Ages (University of Chicago Press, 1989)Lynn Staley, Margery Kempe’s Dissenting Fictions (Pennsylvania State University Press, 1994)Jonathan Sumption, Pilgrimage: An Image of Mediaeval Religion (Faber & Faber, 2002)Brett Whalen, Pilgrimage in the Middle Ages: A Reader (University of Toronto Press, 2011)Barry Windeatt (ed.), The Book of Margery Kempe: Annotated Edition (D. S. Brewer, 2006)Barry Windeatt (ed.), The Book of Margery Kempe (Penguin Classics, 2000)Spanning history, religion, culture, science and philosophy, In Our Time from BBC Radio 4 is essential listening for the intellectually curious. In each episode, host Melvyn Bragg and expert guests explore the people, ideas, events and discoveries that have shaped our worldIn Our Time is a BBC Studios production

Thank you for downloading this episode of In Our Time, for more details about in our time, and for our terms of use, please go to BBC.co.com.uk, slash Radio 4. I hope you enjoy the program. The English mystic Marjorie Kemp led a remarkable life at a turbulent time, from 1373 to 1438. After the birth of the first of her 14 children, and again from her 40s, and to the rest of her life, she had visions of Jesus Christ that were so intense, she wept profusely to the amazement of many and annoyance of some. She felt the pain of the crucifixion and she imagined herself married to Christ living as man and wife.

This was a time in England was on high alert for heretics. And Maja Kemp was threatened with burning at the stake, interrogated as she travelled from her home in Norfolk across the country by land and sea to Jerusalem, Rome, Norway, Poland, Germany and Santiago de Compostela. We only know of her life now because she dictated her story to scribes towards the end of her life. That book disappeared until the 19th.

30s, when it tumbled from a cupboard at a country house as guests were looking for a spare ping-pong ball. With me to discuss, Major Kemp and English Mysticism, are Miry Rubin, Professor of Medieval and Early Modern History at Queen Mary, University of London, Catherine Lewis, Senior Lecturer in History at the University of Huddersfield, and Anthony Bale, Professor of Medieval Studies at Birkbeck University of London. Mirruban, what do we know about Margaret Kemp's early life in Kings Lynn? Marjorie was probably born around 1373. She's born to a very, very distinguished family in Lin at the time.

It was called Bishop's Lynn. Now, Lynn at the time in the early 15th century, was a very, very important port. It was connected to a whole network of cities that were bound together around the Baltic and the Northern Sea, the Hanseatic League, so that the traders from all these cities had equal rights and moved. them very easily. So was her father, John Brunham or Burnham, a major, major trader, who was also elected to office. He served as coroner and juror and MP and five times as mayor as Lynn. So she really grew up in a very, very grand, well-to-do family. And as was normal in those circles, around 20, because in England on the whole women were a little bit older than their counterparts, say,

in Italy at the time, around 20. She was a little bit. She married John Kemp. John Kemp also from a merchant family, maybe, well, definitely not as distinguished as her own, but also part of the elite of this bustling city. And then she gets pregnant soon after. And in that pregnancy, that first pregnancy, clearly she suffered a lot both physically

and personal, spiritual, mental anguish. And in the course of that, she has the first revisions of Christ. and that's very helpful to her. But she goes on with her life and she has 14-2. The vision is an extraordinary appearance to her of the second person of the Trinity that is Christ, the man and God, but very, very much a physical Christ

who comforts her, who encourages her. And she's very much afraid that she's just admired in sin and that her pain is thus a punishment. She also does, as I read, a massive scratching of herself. The scars remain true. Terrible, terrible, literary, a scratching of herself that leaves scars for a lifetime, as she says. And really, the description in the book of The Anguish is extremely, extremely troubling and moving. But she still goes on and she has 14 children.

Now, we don't know if these are 14 births or 14 children. If 14 live children, it may well have been more births than more actual births than that, given a child mortality at the time. And then around Middle Age. Now, I know when to get to middle age yet. What was the position of women in relation to the established church at this time? Okay, so a woman like Marjorie would have had a certain amount of numeracy and literacy just from being really part of a merchant environment and working in it.

She would have had her religious education, partly at home, but then, of course, through the services of the very grand church of St. Margaret's, it was her church in which she went to regularly. That would mean partaking in the sacraments, that would mean, Access to confession? I mean, Roman Catholicism at that time was spectacular, extravagant, impressive and meant to be, but also encouraging the domestic imitations of Christ.

So what was woman's relationship with that church then? Well, a woman like her would have had, for example, her own book of prayer, as we know that Marguerite had. So she had, she was able to afford that sort of extra, as it were, help in her devotions as she went to church. She would have had the whole array of sacraments, as I said, but also in a city like Lynn that had so many preachers

and religious and monks and friars she would have heard quite a lot of really rather interesting preaching and she says she learnt a lot from that type of preaching. As a woman she had no actual place in the established hierarchy of the church. Anthony Bale, what were the authorities

or why were the authorities on their lookout for heretics at this particular time? We're talking about the end of the 14th, the beginning of the 15th century. Yes. Marjorie is accused of heresy at various points in her life. And this is really part of the playing out of the Wycliffeite heresies of the late 14th century.

These were what we might now recognise as proto-protestant or pre-Protestant heresies based on the thought of John Wickliff, who was an Oxford theologian and cleric. And Wickliff had developed a theological, position, which became known as Lollody. Not in Wycliffe's time. It became much

more a kind of spectral, unidentifiable movement called Lollady, which is what Kemp is accused of in the 15th century. Can you give us some examples of that? Because it came, Wiclip was defended by John of Gant at the time of the early

1380, 382 and 3, where he got out, he didn't write it, but he out this first English, full English translation of the Bible, which was illegal. And when he was protected, it was okay. When he was show trial, put him in jail and then finished off his life. He wasn't, especially after John of Gaunt. But then they turned on the English Bible and everything else the law laws developed. So can you give the listeners some things of what they were saying?

Some of it is remarkably contemporary. When you say proto-pronristism, let's go for it. What were they saying in the 1390s? Well, the distillation of what? what we might think of as Lollard thought, arrives in 1395 in the 12 Lollard conclusions, which are presented to Parliament and pinned on the doors of St. Paul's Cathedral and Westminster Abbey.

And these 12 conclusions include statements such as worship of the bread and wine of the sacrament is a kind of idolatry, that confession to priests is illegitimate because only God has the right to absolve human beings of sin, that clerical celibacy lead to, to sodomy, that and the pilgrimage and devotion to relics

is a kind of idolatry. And that the Bible must be in English. Yes, and this is much more, I think, a move towards a congregational religion as opposed to a clerical religion and is therefore extremely hostile towards the established church and the clergy. And one of the particular points

that the Wycliffeites make is that clerics should not have temporal offices or own land or have temporal employment, that they should be busying themselves with the cure of souls rather than looking after the church as well. It's very much a more intellectual point of view. The same thing that John Ball was stirring up crowds before, about 15, 20 years before.

So it's very much in the air, but they turned against it. The church is tightening its grip on all sorts of things. including that the pledges should be chased and so on. So what was it like for ordinary people? They pin them to the door. Maybe Luther got the idea then from that. They pin them to the door, and do ordinary people go about their lives in a completely different way?

Are they sniffing out lullards in their own villages? What's happening? Heresy is essentially a thought crime. It's a crime which exists in people's minds, in people's devotional selves. and so identifying it, finding it, actually involves a degree of surveillance and drilling down to what normal people are doing.

And from the early 15th century, so by this point 20 years or so after Wycliffe, but in the early 15th century, you get this incredible culture of surveillance and censorship. Who's doing with surveillance? Well, it starts of being the established church, and particularly Archbishop Arundel, who is a very keen persecutor of Lollards.

And what we see in the book of Marjorie Kemp is how this surveillance drills down to the level of both secular and ecclesiastical officers. So it could be a bishop, it could be a confessor, it could be the steward or the mayor of Leicester. It's something which is being carried out across all different parts of society and across the country. And by that time it became very serious because in 1401 a statute came out which was on the burning of heretics and the first heretic was burnt then and on it went.

Catherine Lewis, what kind of vision, let's get back to Majocham. What kind of visions did she have at first? So as Miris mentioned, the very first vision actually happens just after, or about six months after she gave birth. And as we were saying, it was a very difficult experience for her. She was physically ill and then she had a lot of mental anguish over an unconfessed sin. Now she never tells us what this sin was and there's been lots of speculation about its nature. I suspect it might have been some kind of sexual sin because she's absolutely preoccupied with sexuality and with the fact that she lost her virginity and many times in the book she tells us she wished she'd never married and never had sex.

So she goes to her confessor, she wants to confess this sin because she thinks she's going to die. And the confessor is very sharp with her and she can't get the sin out. And so then she goes into this frenzy and the first visions that she's, had are terrifying visions of demons, breathing fire and attacking her and pulling her about. And this is when, as you was saying, she starts to self-harm because they're encouraging her to try and kill herself, because then she'll go to hell and be damned. But then in the middle of all of this, just when it seems as though she really has lost her mind, Christ appears. And it's a wonderful vision. He appears. He's a very handsome man. He's clad in purple. And he just sits on the side of her bed and he says, daughter, why have you forsaken me when I

never forsook you. And then he disappears elegantly, as Anthony says in his translation, off up into heaven again. And that's it. But it restores her senses. Again, it brings her back to herself. But then nothing seems to then change in her life for about another 15 years. She has this very important vision, but she carries on living as she was. And having children. And having children, exactly, yes. And then she has another vision that we're not so, we're not really sure of the dating, but. Let's wait for the next one. Because I just want to go into what you've mentioned, which is really important.

Where did they come from? Because she was worried, even towards the end of her life, when she went to see Julian of Norwich, did they come from God or did they come from the devil? Well, she believed they came from God, but sometimes she very properly doubted this because even the most learned, the most well-educated theologian could have difficulty discerning the origins of a vision,

discerning whether they had come from God or from the devil, let alone a woman. And this is what makes women's visions problematic because of all the stereotypical ideas about their intellectual and moral failings and this sense that they really would not be capable of discerning the origins of the vision. And so this is one of the main themes of the book, over and over again Marjorie questions this. One of the key questions here is how seriously, maybe that's the wrong word. Let's use it anyway. How seriously do we take the word visions?

Because lots of people have said since then, oh, she had this sort of breakdown, or it was this post-birth crisis, whatever. Or it was that, or it was the other. Now, we're going to come across many more visionaries. How would you explain the vision? At the time, what do you think was happening at the time? It's very difficult to know what's happening.

All we can really go on is what she tells us. So she believes that she sees this. She believes that Christ physically appears to her and that he's concrete. She says in other visions she touches him, she feels him. And yes, perhaps we might want to talk in modern terms about it being the product of some kind of mental illness or psychosis. But that's not how she sees it.

When people in the book explain her visions as madness or as illness, the book is very clear that they are wrong and that these are visions that have come from God. Yes. And what's more interesting is that what is equally interesting, sorry, not more, is it lots of... lots of other people, David, and Mary Rubin there are, it's a time of mystics. It's a time and also of women mystics in Northern Europe. Let's stick to it all the Europe. Can you give us one or two instances and how did the tradition grow in Northern Europe and how has Marjora did?

Absolutely, yes. From about 1,100, we really have quite a lot of texts. It begins in the 12th century with really nun's writing, say like the famous Hildegarde of Bingon, actually in charge of her writing project. She's a person who's able to do so. She has a... the intellectual skills. From the 13th century, we start finding women who aren't in nunneries in cities, or just living outside nunneries or outside religious houses, but also developing a spirituality that gets noticed. And then their visions are often taken down by priests who are fascinated by them. One such very important person is Marie of Wanii from the Diocese of Lijéj in Belgium of today. And a very, very major intellectual in church, churchman Jacques de Vittre, writes down her visions. These are translated widely throughout Europe. And she's one of the people

who clearly influenced 200 years later Marjorie's own mental religious world, particularly around the issue of crying as aloud and also a person who had been married, as Marie of Wanii had been, finding her way to a chaste marriage. But above all important, to my mind, is Bridget of Sweden, who, felicitously, the year she dies in is the year we think Marjorie was born in 1373, an extraordinary Swedish aristocrat who moves from marriage and bearing eight children to a life of chaste marriage and after the death of her husband pilgrimage throughout Europe. Marjorie mentions her, Marjorie's inspired by her and particularly by her Marian devotion, her devotion to the Virgin Mary.

And sort of compiature, though, really. Indeed. Yes. Anthony, we know Marjorie Kemp's life from the book of Marjorie Kemp, apparently dictated in the last two years of her life in two books. Can you give us some idea of that book? Or a total idea. Well, the book, by its own account, has a very difficult passage into existence. She asks somebody to write it down for her. And the person she first asks is, a man who has lived in Prussia for some time and is almost certainly her oldest son. It doesn't say it's her oldest son in the book, but we can extrapolate from this

that it was almost certainly her oldest son. And he tries to write down a version of her life and when it's been read, it turns out to be so evilly written, so ill written that nobody can understand it. Who uses the word evilly? The book that's, the text that we now have says that this is so misshapen in Deutsch letters,

in German letters. And then the book is given to another man who had been a friend of this man from Prussia, and he can't understand it either. It's then given to a priest who tries to read it and can't do anything with it, and then somewhat later, miraculously, this priest is able to work on it. And so the text sets itself up from the very beginning, is having a very difficult relationship with its own self, and it makes clear that it's written out of order

and that there's several different amanuensis and scribes involved in the production of the text. The actual manuscript that we have today, which is held by the British... I think before we go there, how reliable do you think it is? Do you think she did write stroke dictated? I personally see no reason to disbelieve the text's own account of collaborative authorship because that's very much in keeping with how medieval texts are written, that people would have a listener, a reader, a writer, a scribe. and these were all part of what it was to be an author in the Middle Ages.

In terms of how reliable it is, this is not an impartial document. This book is designed to show camp in a particular way. It's modelled on sacred precursors, particularly Bridget of Sweden and Maridwanyi, and it looks like a saint's life in some ways. It looks like a confession in other ways. And, of course, one of the famous generic tags that's given, to it is it's the first autobiography in the English language. And to some extent that's true. It's the story of Kemp's life, but it's not the whole story. It's very interesting to us as a

historical document, but it's also a work of rhetoric and has an ambivalent relationship with the whole truth. That's the case with so many medieval documents. You just have to take a deep breath and say, well, we'll go with it. That's what we've got. Absolutely. Yeah, it's 920. We're going with it and we're going to keep. I'm going to keep going with it for the rest of the break. But it does seem who else would have written the story of Marjorie Kemp or except Marjorie Kemp and so on and her son. The evidence is as near conclusive as damage. Absolutely, yes.

Okay, Catherine, we, she has this vision when she's in her early 20, when she had her first child. We don't hear much more about visions until quite a few years later when they come on. Was this after her first great, uh, pill, pilgrimage to Jerusalem and to Calvary and so on. Was it the visions and the conversations with Christ and that come on then? No, they start before then. And actually the pilgrimages come out of the visions, in fact. So, yeah, it's about 15 years later.

And I mentioned that the first vision of Christ that she has, it's a very brief encounter. So he appears and sits on her bed and restores her to herself. But then about 15 years later, it's more of a, I suppose, an auditory experience, because this is when the conversations with Christ start. And I think he's in chapter five of the book, so it's early on, even though we know it didn't happen until later.

And this is where Christ, for the first time, tells her, he reassures her again about this sin, and he tells her that she is saved. Essentially, he has now forgiven all of her sins. She will never go to hell. She'll never go to purgatory even. Does she actually quote him in her book? It's direct speech from Christ, yes.

So she says that she hears him. He ravishes her soul, and then you get direct speech of Christ. speaking to her. And this is where he also starts outlining for her aspects of what go on to be her vocation, what we might describe as the public ministry she creates for herself, essentially. And really importantly, one of the things that he says as part of this is that she's to go and see a local anchorite. And again, it comes back to this issue of discernment of spirits. And the local anchorite will be able to reassure her. And indeed, when he hears about the revelations that she's already had, he's moved to tears by them and says that she's sucking at the breast of Christ

essentially. And again, importantly, he also says to her, come back and tell me every time you have another vision and I'll be able to help you. I'll be able to reassure you about their origins. So she made an agreement, well, I don't know how much he agreed because he grumble later or did more than grumble. She made a deal with her husband that there'll be no sex, so she'll be chased from then on, and she would eat no meat. This is somehow part of it. You said you use the phrase she was creating her own public ministry. What do you mean? The sense that she must go around. She travels around the country and she must tell people of her visions. And in particular, one of the things that Christ talks to her about, she says to him at one point,

why haven't you shown these visions to professional religious, essentially, to clerics? And Christ talks about the fact that a lot of sin hides under the habits of holiness. And so she is essentially going out to correct what she sees as problems. And this is where she gets in trouble because she is preaching. Yes. And women are not allowed to preach then, although the law lads, one of the many radical things that are a person that women could preach.

Mary, you know, come in, Anthony. Well, that was just going to pick up that point about that's where she's on really dangerous ground. And it's something that she has to make very clear that she's not preaching. Obviously, it's forbidden by St. Paul for women to preach. and it's forbidden in the medieval church and she makes that very clear that she's not preaching but she does particularly when she's

at the Archbishop of York's house in Kaywood she is it's very clear that she is effectively preaching she's telling a parable and she's on she's put to getting herself in very dangerous territory there Mary can I switch to Jerusalem she made a great

pilgrimage to Jerusalem pilgrimages were another thing the law lads didn't believe in so she was on the side of the establishment in that one. And that seems to be had, when she was about 40, that seems to have had a seismic effect on her life. That is quite extraordinary. And it follows this sort of mid-life change of life

that we've mentioned in bits, getting out, as it were, of this framework of marriage for long periods of time, obviously receiving a sort of blessing and agreement of her husband, which she would have been required to have in order to travel in this manner. and also becoming the ultimate pilgrim and in poverty and in suffering

and even the way to Jerusalem is a martyrdom of sorts as she's being mocked and she's being abandoned and so on. But she reaches Jerusalem, sorry. You say she, yours says she travels alone. She was a rich woman. Did she not even have a servant or was she alone alone? She had a servant and then she's forsaken by her servant. So it's a series of absolute trials.

and also finding people to travel with. Everyone traveled in groups in the Middle Ages. Groups was safety. And that's clearly a problem. She joins groups, and then the groups find her irksome because she does go about, in a way, correcting people, preaching, well, maybe not preaching, but constantly in vain when people want to settle down and have a good time,

you know, like the Canterbury Pilgrims of Chaucer in a way. And she's always, they're reminding them, don't mention God's name in vain or don't behave this way or the other. But when she reaches Jerusalem, everything comes together in the most extraordinary fashion. And remember that Jerusalem at this time is under Mamaluk, under Muslim control. But nonetheless, Christians have access to the holy places. The Franciscans have created in a way a trail of pilgrimage that allows people to really walk in the footsteps of Christ, the Via Dolorosa. And you can imagine for a woman who's been commuter,

for some years now, regularly with Christ, what this means. And she says to actually be in the place where his infancy was, where his suffering was. It's just absolutely extraordinary. Well, she goes to Bethlehem as well. She goes to Bethlehem as well. Is it there that she goes to what is called, and Joan of Arc headed as well, the gift of weeping? No, that happens already in Calvary, in Jerusalem, in the place of the crucifixion. As you can imagine, yes, totally in this trip.

And it really is quite extraordinary. what greater immediacy can you imagine, but also imagine that the Franciscans are very, very good with their own brand of effective piety, of working people up. You know, there's a leader, like a tourist leader today, leading with the cross, preaching, the sounds, the cries, people crawling on the ground,

still in Jerusalem and Holy Week, you can see that. So this is all, everything comes together in terms of her very intimate contact in Christ. And as you say, the weeping, the weeping that then will stay with her her whole life, an extraordinary form of expression, but also in a way acting as a channel for some sort of divine inspiration in her mind.

And annoying and impressing people in almost equal measure, Anthony Bale. And that's partly why we are told she wasn't too popular with her fellow pilgrims. Yes, on her major pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 13 to 14, as Mary says, she is effectively ejected from the pilgrimage group that she's traveling.

We forgot to say she dressed in white all the time. She annoyed people as well, given that she was married and had 14 children. She dressed in white, which was certainly a sign of purity and probably virginity. So she's adopting a persona of a virgin with 14 children. And she is repeatedly bullied on her way to Jerusalem. them. And I think one of the most symbolic things that the pilgrims do

is refuse to eat with her and they sit her at the end of the table. They don't speak to her and to eject her from this kind of commensality, this eating together, which is the corporate body of the Christian group, is very very painful to her. They also, she says,

they steal her money, they dress her in a ridiculous kind of cloak made out of badger fur. And and her maid servant abandons her. And they cut her dress, so it's like a really mini-skirts. She's made to look like a fool. And also she's made to look poor.

And that then becomes a persona that she adopts. I think one of the things that we have to bear in mind with this account of her persecution is that this authorises her in a way. This is her via cruis. She is like Christ. She's got a gift which not everyone believes. she needs to prove herself through the ordeal of... In other words, the more she's mocked, the more she believes her faith is right.

She absolutely says that, yes. In fact, she has Jesus say that to her. So being a renegade, being someone who sees the truth which others don't see, then becomes a very authorising position for her. She's been a remarkably strong woman, mustn't she? I mean, not only the travelling and being abandoned by May so, but being exiled, as it were, from the table in the evening being mocked by her fellow pilgrims. It's extraordinary.

What did the authorities think of her? She travelled right, because she did pilgrimages in England, too, York, Walsingham, the obvious places, and took them on wherever she went, it seems to me. There's an encounter with the mayor of Leicester, isn't there, where she has a go at her, and she has a go back at him. He really wants to imprison her or even put her on trial. Can you talk about that? That's right, yes.

So in Leicester, she is actually more or less formally tried for Lolladie, and she's examined as to her opinion on the articles of the faith. And they're hoping to try and catch her out. They focus on the mass, essentially, and get her opinion on the true presence in the mass. But interestingly, it's not just the perception that she might be a heretic. One comment that the mayor of Leicester makes to her, and it relates to her white clothing,

is that he asks her why she goes about in white, and then he says to her, I think you've come to lead all our wives away. And there is this fear that she is setting a very subversive example. Because yes, she's still married, but she's taken a vow of chastity. And her husband has authorised her pilgrimage, but he's not there. And she's essentially, she's earning a living for herself as a holy woman. She has a purse of money that she carries around with her. The Archbishop, or the bishop of York, rather, asks her where she gets the money from.

And she says, well, people pay for me to pray for them. So this is, I think, something that's worrying, something that's challenging and that she might encourage other wives to do the same. And intriguingly, she also comes under the attention of the most powerful man in England at the time, and that's John Duke of Bedford, who's governing England in the absence of Henry V. And again, he's obviously concerned about her in relation to Lollody, because there's just been Oldcastle's revolt, the famous Lollard Lord, and he's actually on the run at this point. This is 1417. and so he sends his men to arrest her and they say they're going to get a reward of £100 for arresting her, which is, yes, it's a lot of money. So the Duke of Bedford is worried about her.

But again, there's an interesting, more personal sideline onto that because we also discover that Marjorie Kemp had been in the household of the Duke of Bedford's aunt, and that's Joan Beaufort. And allegedly, she had counseled Joan Beaufort's daughter to leave her husband. And so again, you've got that same motif that Marjorie is. setting a very bad example. She denies it, but that's what she's accused of. That's a really important point because a lot of the scholarship in general interest in her has been as somebody who was persecuted by authorities. But in fact, almost in every city

where she was examined by the authorities, you find people who take her in. You find people who give her lavish table. And, you know, she enjoyed her food. She loved sitting at table and talking. So there is this way in which the population, in the population, there were those who were open to her example. Because what was going on at the time, I mean, I'm reading a little bit about choice. Anyway, Charles Sane. Is the idea that women could be brides of Christ. Now, this was encouraged by the church.

You, not only the nuns, you are a bride of Christ. Now, it isn't a big step to say, okay, therefore he is my husband. And she said, well, she has a ring. She has a ring. So maybe the popular sympathy for us to do with, well, a lot of us wish to be brides of Christ. and you have, as it were, made it, and we want to know about your experience. Yes, exactly.

But the thing is that you can be a bride of Christ. If you're in a monastery, even if you're in an anchor hold like Julian of Norwich, that's fine. You're not a danger. The thing about her is that she's abroad and she's visible and she's audible. Some hate her, some absolutely admire her.

And there is a sort of Christian communality that develops around her amongst her followers. She goes to me as that Julian of Norwich is strange, not strange woman, this extraordinary woman. Strange too. Strange who wrote a reputation,

unlike Marjorie's endures strongly to this day. The former bishop of Oxford thinks very highly and so and so forth. So was she going to the Jewelian Norwich to confirm her own position or to tell us why you think she went? For all that Marjorie is so

strong and opinionated, she's very open to hear good advice. She often goes and asks, we already heard about going to the And so she goes early in her career, that in that middle age moment, she goes to Julian, in Norwich, in the church, and Carress at St. Julian's church, to ask for advice and discernment. And they stay together for days together and discuss all of that. Now, Julian herself had already committed her first visions, which she got as a young woman, a young sick woman in her 30s. And she had written down around 1373. And then she had written them again, interestingly, after a life of reflection. But there was never any question. I don't think that people really knew very much about these writings. I think scholars know about them now. I don't think Julian of Norwich at the time was known for a vision. She was

not for exemplary life. So she was a sort of person exactly, and particularly being a woman, how attractive to see someone who would really, really understand. And they go and they spend quality time together. This is clearly a very important encounter for Madri in terms of someone to talk to. Anthony, Antimbel, in, she made many pilgrims. We talked about to go to Rome, to Assisi. We talked about it going to Norway. Well, we aren't talking about it going to that more accurately.

Anyway, she did. And then towards the, when she was 60 or something, she sets off for Gdansk. Why is that? This is a really remarkable moment in the book, and it really provides the kind of formal end of the book where after the pilgrimage to Jerusalem as a woman of about 40 is the kind of spiritual high point,

the journey to Poland and then Germany is the kind of the end journey of the book. And the book says that she... Can I just clarify these journeys a little bit? Because we haven't... I mean, she sometimes is walking, she sometimes is on a car. She wasn't using her wealth from kings, liners.

Or bishops linders, it was then called to get her there the easy way. Well, in fact, it's clear in the book that she gives money away to make the pilgrimage which is more difficult and that she then gets more money from supporters, which she then repeatedly gives away. That's very clear on her journey to Santiago. But she sets off for Gadsk as actually a renegade.

She is accompanying her daughter-in-law, who was from Gadansk to Whipswich. And this was after her son had died, and she was going to put her daughter-in-law on a boat to send her back to her own family in... Prussia. And then Kemp, who's been told not to go, she then gets on the boat and she goes off to the Baltic. The boat is blown off course and ends up in Norway over Easter. And then they make their way to Gerdansk. And then she undertakes an incredible journey. This is a woman in her 60s

who has a bad foot. She says she's injured her foot. And she walks something like 800 to a thousand miles. Partly on wagons, partly on foot. She takes a boat, from Gerdansk to Straussund and then she goes to the Holy Blood and the Holy Eucharist at Vilsnack, which was a famous pilgrimage location, and then she goes on to Archen and then to Calais and then back home as a woman who is really struggling. The text is very detailed about how difficult this journey was. Do you think, Mary, Mary Robin, that her experience was seen at the time.

she thought of herself to be a mystic she had no doubt about her belief the more it was mocked the stronger it was and the visions were clear and they were transfectory he came, he said that and I was there and they're rather domestic sitting on the edge of the bed and that sort of thing and they're always sexual either

in one way or another do you think that people saw it as an enrichment of the life of the general community of how you lived or an enrichment of her life people thought that she was doing it this all to her benefit Some people thought she was instrumental that she was a hypocrite who wanted to draw attention to herself

but as many, I would have thought, found her exemplary and the fact that she got so much patronage, she got so many offerings, people at least thought she might be a prophetess, let's ask her an important question like, when might I die or when might a relative die and so on and that's why the constant stream of patronage and support. But the thing is, her story also fits into the biblical story And indeed the book of Marjorie Kemp is full of citations from the Bible, obviously in the Middle English mostly, of suffering, of prophecy, a lot from the Hebrew prophets.

She's also building really importantly on the deep carnality of the religion of incarnation. The body is a vehicle. Christ offered his body after all. So in a lot of ways, she's just making something quite unique and being a way. woman, it's troublesome, out of the bits and pieces, the material, the resources of Christianity. And in that sense, it was possible for many to appreciate her, including very respectable monks in the course of the 15th century, who wanted to have a copy of her book, and that is our sole surviving manuscript.

Catherine, can you see a plan in what she's doing? She goes to all these places, massive travelling, and in this country, and she gives money away and get, is there a plan? Can you say she did this because of that? I think she did it because she was compelled to do it by Christ, essentially, and again, this sense of mission. But I think there is also, she's very aware of these other female mystics, and there is a sense in which there's very much an awareness

of a future reputation for holiness as well. And what's really fascinating, of course, is in all the list that Mary told us about, there is no English counterpart, with the exception of Julian of Norwich, who wasn't known as a visionary at the time. So I think one of the things that we've got going on here perhaps is an attempt collaboratively with Kemp and her scribe to provide the English answer, if you like, to Bridget of Sweden, to provide a homegrown manifestation of holiness within that urban setting.

It has been suggested this was her attempt to turn her into a saint. This was her attempt to turn herself into a saint. Yes, but only in the broadest sense, this would not be a document that you'd present, for canonisation, for example, that would be a Latin document, a very different kind of document. Anthony, so the book is written, dictated, whatever it is, and then copied. What do we know of its influence? Well, that's a really good question.

We know that the manuscript that we have was held by the Carthusian Monastery of Mount Grace in Yorkshire in the late 15th, and the 16th century. And there we know that Carthusian monks were reading it very sincerely, very piously, as evidence of devotional practices. We can tell from their marginalia that they are saying that they're taking the spiritual message from it. And then in around 1500 and then again in 1521, early printed versions of the book of Marjorie Kemp are produced. They are very, very heavily edited, almost censored.

They take most of her life out and they just give us a few bits of her visions. And they call her a devout an caress of Lynn, which she wasn't. She wasn't an anchoress, someone who's withdrawn. was someone very much in the world. And so her reputation does endure, but in a quite small way. She certainly wasn't made a saint. She certainly didn't become a saint.

And then really between the English Reformation in the 16th century and 1934, she more or less disappears. Do you have an explanation for that? I think in the harsh terms of hagiography, the cult fails that she isn't made a saint, but also because she's exactly the kind of figure. who is so much connected to the old religion that she's very...

This is something that Protestants would have been very hostile towards her faith in the sacrament, her faith in pilgrimage, her love of indulgences, these are things which were, you know, really not appreciated by the Church of England. If we simplify in talk of two sides,

a great Roman Catholic establishment, spectacular, theatrical, in control, all pervasive, and the Protestants, starting with the law, Let's say stuff. She offended both. You're nodding, Mary. She certainly wasn't a Lollard, but she strikes some poses

which make people think she might be, and yes, she speaks truth to power. That's one of her things. Well, what's fascinating in the... When it is discovered in the 1930s and is then published, both in modern English and in Middle English, what's fascinating is that Catholics,

like Graham Green, are enthusiastic about him, as well as of course just the Church of England because for Catholic she talks about the old religion and for English she's just an for for Anglicans she's just a wonderfully colourful English religious character and she's all over the front pages of the TLS and so on there's a great enthusiasm about her when she's rediscovered

well thank you all very much thank you Mary Rubin Catherine Lewis and Anthony Bale next week we'll turn on by penicillin discovered by Sir Alexander Fleming in 1928 you follow us I'm told on Twitter and BBC In Our Time. Thank you very much for listening. And the In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material from Melvin and his guests.

So what do we miss out that was important? But Melvin, one of our wonderful colleagues, David Wallace, has just gone into the whole history of the actual reception in 34. And then during the war, because the translation is published and the edition in 1940. and she becomes almost a counterpart to Joan of Arc. They have La Pusel. We have extraordinary, resilient, tough eccentrics like Marjorie Kemp was the idea.

Catherine, what do you think? I would have liked to say more about her husband and her son, I think. Why about her husband? He's a very interesting character, and I think he is very, he is very forbearing in many ways. albeit that when they're in Canterbury together apparently she's embarrassing him so much that he pretends he doesn't know her and sort of leaves her alone but I think actually

I've made of many husbands but I think actually the relationship that they have is very interesting and so for example when she first says to him that she wants to have live chased he says like St Augustine he says well that's a really good idea but just not yet but yet he does enable her to follow that lifestyle and later on in life when he has this terrible accident

and he gets this brain damage and she has to look after him. He's infantilised at this point. And she says she doesn't want to look after him, but Christ reminds her that really her husband has enabled her to follow the vocation because he was prepared to let her live this different form of life. So, yes, I'd like to...

And also points out, she points out, that they'd had so much enjoyment of each other's bodies when they were young, that it was now fitting that she should look after him when he's fouling his own linen by the fireplace. and at table. And this is, I think, in English writing,

this is unique to have a portrait of old people in their marriage. This domesticity, which is, and actually, I find this part of the book very moving. He's fallen down the stairs and she's looking after him. And this is something which, it's a portrait of... I wish you got that in, actually. That was good. That's good. No, because usually there is a certain type of criticism

that makes him into a sort of villain. Yes. You know, she maybe would have wanted to. to start her chased life earlier, but he, you know, they produced 14 children and so on. But so it's quite interesting to see because marriage is also a framework of respectability. It's a household.

It's a safe haven. But that's one of the things which is so amazing about the book for us that it's so full and that people come back to it and find... Every time I read it, I find something new. Apart from anything else, it gives us an awful lot about medieval England, doesn't it? Medieval England, doesn't it? Yeah.

And a woman at the time. You know, when Virginia Woolf writes in a... Room of One's Own. Ah, if only some historian here in Gerton would write a book about, say, a Tudor woman, just a normal woman. To me, this is the book. There are more than 700 programs to download and listen to for free from the In Our Time website. We'll also find a reading list for this episode.