In Our Time - Shinto

Episode Date: September 22, 2011

Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss the Japanese belief system Shinto.A religion without gods, scriptures or a founder, Shinto is perhaps better described as a system of belief. Central to it is the idea of kami, spirits or deities associated with places, people and things. Shinto shrines are some of the most prominent features of the landscape in Japan, where over 100 million people - most of the population - count themselves as adherents.Since its emergence as a distinct religion many centuries ago, Shinto has happily coexisted with Buddhism and other religions; in fact, adherents often practise both simultaneously. Although it has changed considerably in the face of political upheaval and international conflict, it remains one of the most significant influences on Japanese culture.With:Martin PalmerDirector of the International Consultancy on Religion, Education, and CultureRichard Bowring Professor of Japanese Studies at the University of CambridgeLucia DolceSenior Lecturer in Japanese Religion and Japanese at the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London.Producer: Thomas Morris.

Thank you for downloading this episode of In Our Time. For more details about In Our Time, and for our terms of use, please go to BBC.co.com.com. I hope you enjoy the program. Hello, in a tranquil forest in the Japanese city of Isay stands a group of wooden buildings which are visited by 7 million people every year. Together they make up the Isay shrine, one of the holiest sites of Shinto. And there's been a place of worship there at least since the 5th century, although according to custom the shrine is demolished and rebuilt every 20 years. Shinto is one of Japan's major religions, practiced by 110 and million of the country's inhabitants.

And usually, it has no founder figure, no holy scripture, nor even a central deity. Many Japanese follow Shinto as well as another religion, and its practice nowhere else. There's much debate as to how long it's existed, and some people even dispute whether it is accurate to describe it as a religion in the first place. With me to discuss Shinto,

I'm Martin Palmer, director of the international consultancy on religion, education and culture. Richard Bowering, professor of Japanese studies at the University of K. Cambridge, Anocio Dolce, Senior Lecturer in Japanese Religion at the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London. Martin Palmer, can you tell us what this word, what Shinto means? Or Jindo is two Chinese characters.

The first character means gods, deities, and Doe is the same word as Tao in China, meaning the way. So it's the way of the gods, but it's a very formal title, which emerges really in the 7th century AD, as an attempt to try and give a sort of classical reference to what had been practiced in Japan for millennia, that is local deities, fertility goddesses and deities, a sense of veneration of ancestors or of lineage and so forth. So it's rather like if someone was asked in England, what religion are you?

And you say, well, I'm a member of the established church of England rather than saying, oh, I'm an Anglican or a Christian. It's a very formal title. really in order to combat Buddhism, which comes in, not so much to combat it, but to define itself in relationship to Buddhism, which is well defined, has a clear set of scriptures, has a clear hierarchy, and this is an attempt to gather together under one umbrella term, an awful lot of very local Japanese religious traditions.

And at the heart of Shinto there are these entities called Kami, K-A-M-I, in the English translation of it. What are they? Well, that's one of the great questions, really, in Shintoism, is what are they? That's what we hear of answer. That's why you ask me. Okay. They are manifestations of power, of transcendent power, of otherness, of mystery. And they manifest themselves through all sorts of forms and places.

So they can manifest themselves through a tree or a rock. They can manifest themselves through a person. How do they manifest themselves? By breaking through into the, this world, by if you like, an effect on this world. For example, some of the founders of the great Japanese multinational companies are now revered as kami's, because how could they have achieved what they achieved if they were not filled with some kind of greater power and authority? But likewise, you will find that a particularly spectacular mountain will have a kami because

of its impression, but also forces such as a tsunami will have a kami. And the tsunami And I think that's actually quite important to grasp the nature of the kami. The nature of the kami is its nature. It isn't there to be a servant of humanity or to have a covenant relationship with humanity. It simply is. So if the kami of a tsunami wants to have a tsunami, then it will have a tsunami. It doesn't necessarily mean, in fact, probably doesn't mean that there's any moral significance of this. You're not being punished by a tsunami.

it's just what the kami of the tsunami do. They are, in a sense, they're amoral, in the sense that we cannot come to them and say, if we do the following will you behave? You can make sure that you don't pollute their area with blood or death or anything of this nature. You can appease them, particularly if they're ancestor kami, by making sure that you do the proper ritual offerings at the shrine,

you feed them in a sense. But they're terribly easy to offend. And once you've offended them, they kind of go berserk because their concern is not this world. They come from another world, from the spirit world, which is really very much this basis of shamanism within Chinto, this notion that this is the material world,

but there is a spiritual world which is superior, which you can communicate through people who are possessed or through places where these powers manifest themselves. But really the spiritual world isn't that interested in the material world. So these rituals are mainly to placate the calmist? Are they entirely to prepare the calm? You don't get advice from them like you do in Greek

oracles or you don't pray to them and hope to be helped as you do with Christian prayer. You can, if you go during examination time in Japan, the Shinto Shrine is full of students who may not be entirely confident in their academic ability, who will then hang up wooden plarks with prayers on, asking for help. But it's more a question of making sure that you don't upset them,

rather than necessarily seeing that they are instruments of divine intervention in your life. But that's quite fuzzy at points. Richard Baring, Martin touched on it, but let's just go back a little before the emergence of Shinto and people say it emerged in the 7th century. Some people say it emerged properly much later in the 13th century, I believe that's a view you hold.

But before the emergence of Shinto, what religions were practiced in Japan? Martin Touchstone, can only have a bit more detail? Well, that's an extremely difficult question because, of course, the texts that we have date from about 700 AD. And let's say from about 350 to 550, we have a series of huge tombs. They're known as keyhole tombs because they're shaped like a keyhole. They really are very large. A lot of them, of course.

Large like what? Well, the amount of... The lines in Trafalgar Square, that large? The amount of earth moved is the equivalent of the pyramids. There's an awful lot, but of course it's not stone, but there's a lot of earth that has been moved there. And there's still quite a large number of them in the centre of Japan. Now, some of them being looked into.

At the moment, you're not really meant to be looking into them because they are imperial property, because they are supposed to be the tombs of former emperors. Now, a lot of them have been excavated, and we find horse trappings. We find it's quite clearly that a local leader has been buried there with his goods for one presumed the future life. Now, the problem is, as I say,

we don't have any texts, as you would in Egypt, to actually help us identify what was going to. going on and what kind of religious feelings were there. We really are stuck until the arrival of Buddhism, and Buddhism, let's say, comes in around about, say, 5.50, something like that. However, the earliest texts, as I've said, are 700. So we've got this tremendous gap between the earliest texts and the arrival of Buddhism. The arrival of Buddhism comes in with Chinese, of course,

and the Japanese could not write before the arrival. of Chinese. And so there is nothing that we can read that is unaffected by the continent. There's nothing we can read as unaffected, in fact, by Buddhism. And this is where we run into the problem that in a sense,

early, let's call it early Shinto, although people argue about whether we ought to use the word Shinto until the 13th century. But let's call it Shinto. Early Shinto is best seen as a system, if there is a system, as a response to Buddhism. So it's very difficult to talk about it as indigenous.

So can you contextualize this even more finely? Buddhism comes in in the 6th century. It's been developing for many centuries by that time since it's for almost a thousand years. Indeed. In a century BC. How did it appear and what was the reaction to it? Could you give us more detail? Yes, right.

Now, it arrives for political reasons. There is one of the states in Southern Korea called Pekche was being attacked by another state, and it appealed to Japan for military help. And as part of this appeal, it sent a new deity. And the deity happened to be, was a small Buddha, because Buddhism, of course, was stronger, had long. history in Korea than it had obviously had in Japan because Buddhism is

coming through the Korean Peninsula. So this arrives. The first response, and remember that there are probably quite a lot of people with Korean ancestry now in Japan by this time, the first response is, ah, here's a more powerful kami,

we better adopt this one too. And it's only then gradually, over I suppose, 150, 200 years, that it becomes clear, when the writing comes in, where the sutras come in, when Buddhist priests arrive, it only becomes clear that here we have a major religion, you know, something with a doctrine, something serious, something that talks about the afterlife. Now, we, obviously, the kami and whatever we have as Shinto at that particular time,

has to respond in some form or other. And I think you can argue that there are two ways that the response is made. First of all, the ruling family decides that it needs a justification for its rule, and it is out of that you begin to get the ideas of the ancestors, was the sun, goddess, etc, etc, etc. The idea that these kami are now anthropomorphized, they're given names, a system is imposed, histories are written, myths in the beginning, but histories are written, this is very much a continent.

influence. This is very much a Chinese influence. So that's on the one hand. That goes on to, let's say about the 10th century and then together with the collapse of the imperial power, then that dies away. But the potential is always there and the potential is going to be used throughout Japanese history.

On the other side, Buddhism decides that local gods have to be incorporated into the system. They, Kami, need salvation. And you begin to get Buddhism producing a way of bringing these kami in, and it's called the way of a kami.

Can I ask you, Lucia, to develop that about the overlap between Buddhism and what's now called Shinto? Why is, I mean to ask an obvious question, why didn't Buddhism just take over? Yes, that's a good question. I think the relation between Shinto and Buddhism is somehow difficult to understand for us. because the parameters we use are taken from inevitably from our monotheistic systems, which are self-contained systems. I think Buddhism was an open system, and the kami worship, I would rather stick to a more general way of indicating Shinto,

was not a system at all. So it was growing, as I think it's clear from what both Martin and Richard said, it was growing together with Buddhism in a kind of, symbiotic relation, maybe we can say. And because it was not a system, there was not a single way in which Buddhist men Shinto overlapped. There were different ways in which they met.

And what does it mean? The idea of the kami and the Buddha's met and myth started being related. So maybe we can talk of a kind of relational logic that united these two systems. And I think maybe we can, I should give some examples to make it a bit more concrete.

I mean they shared some deities. Could you give us a couple of examples of that? They didn't literally share the deities. What they did, the kami existed. They continued to exist as a kami, but they also took a Buddhist appearance, a Buddhist guise. So the relation, there are different patterns we can describe this relation.

The kami appear, first of all, as human beings that need to be liberated, to be taken to enlightenment, and that's one level. And so that brings to the construction of shrines, for instance, next to temples, sorry, next to shrines, so that Buddhist priests can recite sutres on behalf of the kami. Then there is another pattern which says that the kami are protectors of Buddhists. And in fact, a kami do speak through oracles.

and there is a very famous oracle at the beginning of the history of state Buddhism that says that one of these one kami that will become very famous that is not one of the kami of the myth is going to protect the expansion of Buddhism in Japan. Then there is another level which is maybe the most sophisticated way of understanding this relation. And in this other pattern, kami and Buddhas and bodhisattv and all the deities of Buddhism

are understood as of the same ontological essence, we could say, if we use Western terms. So that means that a kami and the Buddha are actually the same entity. The kami is a manifestation of the Buddha, but as the same essence as the Buddha. Can you tell us briefly about these two significant Japanese texts, the early texts, supposedly written in the 5th and 7th century, which are not sacred texts,

but they're very important to Shinto. I suppose you talk about Kojiki and Nihonshuki. I'm glad you said that. They actually were written both in 700, I think 7201 and 750 something, the second one. Yes, they are considered

the sacred books of Shinto, but in fact today are... Sacred books, hold on, just let's get this straight, because I've been, I don't do mislead people. I've said two, three times, that they're not sacred. But they're not books of revelation. But in that sense,

we can maybe slightly distinguish you in sacred books and non-sacred books. Absolutely. They are historical records. The Bible and the Quran are revelation. That's the central to them. But these are not.

They're not. They're not. They're being called the sacred books of Shinto because they are, yes, they're being miscalled. That's perfect. They are historical records that document the life

of the early state. But they're contain a first section that speaks of the age of the gods. So the and the second part is about the successive reigns of the emperors.

So basically the imperial dynasty builds its roots in the divine world of the gods. And that is why they have been miscalled sacred books of Chinto. They

contain a mythic narrative on how Japan was created and how the first emperor was a direct descendant of the gods. It's rather splendid creation, isn't it? The two great gods have sex and their children are islands. Yes. Well, that's quite a fun-up, isn't interesting. Martin Palmer, we mentioned that kind. Can we begin to sort of, is there any way to make it

for a sort of dull westerners like myself, are there any particular significant, Kami? Is it beginning to shape itself around more significant figures? I suppose I'm using this sort of Christian and Muslim model that these shaping figures.

Well, are there? I mean, what about the Amaterasu? Yes, certainly there are key figures in the mythology, exactly as Lutjia has said, who are given an enormous a status in defining Japaneseness, if you like, or particularly

the Imperial Lion. And I suppose the three greatest ones are, first of all, you have the heavenly brother and sister, who you've referred to as having sex and producing islands. This is... The island of Japan. That's right. Isanami and is a Nagy a female and male.

And that's a very classic story, too. It's a fabulous story of very much early beginnings. They dip a spear into the water and to the ocean shake it and the first islands created, they land on that, and then they create the other islands, and then they create pretty much everything else. And then the woman, is an army, gives birth to the fire god,

and is burnt to death as a result. She goes down into the underworld and is followed by her brother, lover, who very much, as we would expect in Greek mythology, goes down, it's completely dark. She speaks back and says, I'll come out with you, just don't look back. You know, the classic line, don't look back. And, of course, he does.

He actually breaks off a fragment of his heavenly comb and uses that to light, and he sees that she is seething with maggots. And out of her orifices come the eight sort of wrathful female deities who then pursue him, and he flees, as one might, out of hell. Marvelous account of him throwing back the remains of his comb which spring into bamboo shoots and these terrible creatures eat it

and slows them down a bit. Then he throws off his headgear and that turns into grapes and they stop and eat that and so forth. Eventually he gets out to the exit and he's almost captured by this terrible creature and he slams the door shut. And then he purifies himself by washing in the ocean. And again, it's a very classic story and I think absolutely what Richard's been saying,

Luchis being saying, you can follow this back through Chinese mythology as well that from his left eye comes Amateratsu, the sun goddess, from his right eye comes the goddess of the god of the moon, and then from his nostrils comes this mischievous creature called Sunamo, who causes all kinds of troubles. And then the next great narrative, and this is the origin of the Japanese family, is Amateratsu, who her brother, this Sunano, causes horrendous offense to.

Absolutely cheeses are off monumentally. she retreats into a cave and the great story of Shinto or the Kami is that the light fades. There's no light. The world is in darkness. And so the other Kami's gather and through this extraordinary dance

and lewd songs and all sorts of things they gradually draw her out and there's a mirror hanging on a tree and as she comes out she sees her reflection and is drawn further out and then she's grabbed they seal off the cave

and she is then back in this world and the mirror becomes this great symbol of power and it's from her that the Japanese imperial line takes its its dynasty. Whether she's Kami or whether she's something more powerful that's a whole other issue.

Apart from Richard, apart from Kami, what are the central, you want to say something to qualify or to add to what Martin was saying, but you do that and then I've got a question. Okay, right. I just wanted to pick up on the matter of creation because Martin's been talking about

birth and things being being produced and created. But I wanted to stress, because you talked about the Muslim Christian, the belief in God creating something. We do not have in Japan any idea that one entity is responsible for creationism. If you go for the creation of the world, it's things become, they don't get created, they grow.

I mean, before we get to be. What's sort of Japanese evolutions? Well, if I can go back to before Izanami and Izanagi, these two figures who put the spear down and the islands emerge, the world emerges out of mud. And so the picture, absolutely, the picture is mud and reeds coming out of the mud. And that's how things they become, they don't get created in that sense, in the very beginning. Can you, can I, I don't think you're moving on, I think it's a moving on conversation,

but still can I go around another corner? Could you, is this such a thing as a central belief system of Shinto? Are there some central beliefs? That's a very difficult question. I would have said no. Because I think that Shinto, it's fair to say, has no doctrine. The doctrine that Shinto has is borrowed, sometimes from Buddhism, sometimes indeed from Confucianism,

sometimes in one particular case at the end of the Tokugawa period, that's around about, say, 1850, actually from Christianity. But because it doesn't have a doctrine, it therefore, and it has also to sort of deal with Buddhism, it has to hold its head up against Buddhism.

It borrows from Taoism, it borrows from Buddhism itself, it's constantly eclectic and trying to produce some texts. But does it say do's and don'ts? You must do this. Blessed are these people, don't do this.

Does it have those sort of codes? Not really. Not really. No. I mean, when you appeal to a kami, you should be clean. Everything around the kami should be clean. A pollution should be avoided.

but you're just going to become me just in case you're going to become me because you're feeling down maybe you want a child that sort of thing you're going for

so if I can purity is a very temporary status in the way in which it is perceived so it's a moment of a ritual purity that you have just when you come

close to the kami, it's not something that you have to maintain permanently. And in the same way, pollution is not like a sin. It's not something that is continuously with you. It's a moment of pollution that can be cleansed away, been cleaned away by a specific gestures. So you can say that purity is both physical and performative. And that's it. Can you take us to these shrines, Lachia? The shrines. There were thousands of shrines. There still are thousands of shrines. How, the Do they conform to? Are they like other cathedrals and other parish church shrines and their little headstone shrines? Can you give us some idea of the shrines and then briefly and then tell us what role they play?

I think that again it's difficult to say just one thing about the shrines because there are as many types of shrines as types of kami. So you would have the shrines such as the ones at ESA that play the role of national symbols of whatever was construed as. Chinto throughout the centuries, but there are also the local shrines that are kind of... How are bigger there? This is a sort of normal-sized room, I don't know, kitchenish. When we speak about shrines,

we don't speak of a single building. We speak of a number of buildings which are included in presents that may have worshipping halls and other holes. And a lot of space, kind of gardens or wood, very important,

forest around the shrines. So it really depends. But at the same time, you have a very tiny shrines in the middle of a city on the top of a company building, which are used for daily worship by, you know, pastors by who just pray quickly and they may be praying for all the benefits that Martin was mentioning. So it depends on the kind of kami you were talking about. And the function of the shrines is often said to be that of places for the community and that is yeah it can be said

true for certain shrines especially in non-urban areas but it's not so for all shrines Martin can you go from shrines to the rituals can you give us some idea of the ritual these shrines are guarded by kept by a keeper of the shrine

can we use the word a sort of priest figure. No, you can use the word of priest. Now, what is he or she? It's always a he, is it? No, can be he or she. Good, got clear. What does that person do?

And what are the chief rituals if you go to a shrine? Well, if you're a visitor, and this very much picks up on the Gilles' point, you wash first before you come in. It's a very symbolic washing tube, but there's water at the front. So you enter, and as Luchat said again, it's very much you can actually wash off your pollution. It's not a stain. So you're not going there for redemption. You're not even going there for preaching.

Shinto priests do not preach. There is nothing to preach about, really, building on what Richard said. You go there because these are the people who are in some way or another able to manage or at least have a relationship with these forces that you know lie all around you, which are beyond you as an individual. So to go back to what we're saying at the beginning of the programme, there is constantly in your mind a parallel. universe operating

everywhere you look, which is the spiritual universe, which is a cross-water, across a chasm, through a wall, in different place in the universe, it's... Through a veil, it's probably best way to get it. It walks alongside you all the time. Yes. It exists alongside it. And you can by accident offend it. Right. You can by accident...

And it can willy-nilly offend you if it feels like. Very much so. It is... That's why I said at the beginning, the Kami are amoral. And this goes back again to Richard's point. There are no core beliefs because you're not dealing with something in the way Western tradition, we have this notion you can establish a covenant. You know, basically you say to God, we'll do this, and God says, well, as long as you do that, I'll look after you.

There isn't that same relationship. What there is is the necessity for ritual, for purification, for ensuring that the Kami are not offended, that they're kept peaceful. The priesthood are hereditary in most cases, and some of them go back many, many generations, male and female, which is also very typical of a religion that comes out of a shaman. tradition, which was the same. And they are the holders of the local tradition. Again, I think we come back to the point that Richard was making. Before you get this invention of Shinto, there were just loads of different traditions going on, and they are maintained by this group, but given an overarching identity. And then the main role, really, is for some of the ceremonies that are to do with stages of life for boys and girls. Obviously, there's rituals

around marriage, not death, to the same extent at all. And the then the Matsuri, these huge festivals, which are in a sense like sort of, you know, completely over the top harvest festivals and celebrations of fertility of the fact that we can feed ourselves, the food has grown again. We're celebrating the fecundity, if you like, of the local area. And their role is enormously important in holding that together and bringing the community together, as Lucia says. Can I ask you, Richard, we've talked a lot about what it's not. We've talked a lot. We've talked about Buddhism coming in, and mimicking Buddhism and taking from Buddhism and from Taoism and so.

What was its grip? I mean, let's go, we're going to the Shogun period now. I'm afraid we're fast-forwarding. Shogun, and then I want to get that and then get to the imperial last, well, at the end of 9th century, early 20th century, when it assumed a completely different way. But what was its grip? So, as it were, this doesn't happen, that doesn't happen,

but it's got this grip. Where is it? Goodness me. I said earlier on that the imperial family as it were created its own myths and that by the 10th century

these had become a bit moribund but I also said that there was potential there and I think the grip, I mean you can't get away from the fact of nationalism and Shinto was always there and it's certain

and there are times when Chinto manages to as it were revive itself are times of sometimes at times of national problems and national danger. So it's always a state religion in waiting well not no

gosh no I won't say no no you put words into my cap. I know you didn't dream and putting it I'm not yet about words it all I'm saying is that the potential for it then to become a state religion in the Meiji period existed. Yes, that's absolutely fine.

But we'll get to that point. I think in the Tocagao period... I think in the Tokugawa period... That's the period. Tokugawa period where... 1600... Yeah, and these are the great Chogun generals. That's right. It's military dictatorship, essentially, all right. And the imperial family was so poorer that sometimes it had to sell its own calligraphy. I mean, it was just totally ignored.

At that particular time, I think you can see, Buddhism and Shinto as being two sides of a coin. Nobody would just go to a kami. The phrase is the Buddhas and the kami. If you're praying for anything, it would be both. So I'm going to disappoint you. And I'm going to say, we can't talk about in essence here. This is why Shinto is so awfully difficult to actually discuss.

I mean, it's dreadful, let's say. I hesitate to say, but I hesitate to say. at High Table if I'm asked, you know, what is you studying and I see in Gintel and they say, what is it? I just give up. Well, I hope your fellow fellow communicants

and High Table are listening in now and at last they'll be informed of something or other. And it's on tape. Tell them they can listen back. So, we have this, let's, can we go to the major rest of rate? Can we talk about your relationship

with the Imperial family, because the Imperial family begin, when the Shogun fails, the Imperial family, power goes back to the Imperial family, who've been lurking and dispossessed, but never gone away, and they take it in. How do they manage to take it in? Well, what happens in 1868, which is the kind of the starting of the major, it's called the major restoration, is that Ashinto is again construed completely in a different way. It's not just that all rights and all deities are separated from Buddhism. There's a kind of complete division of what is Buddhist and what is supposed to be Shinto. It's also that Shinto is deprived of its religious dimension.

It becomes a civic creed. It becomes a kind of national statement of alliance to the emperor. And in that sense, it defines what the new emperor is. or the modern emperor is. And that's really the big link with Shinto. Shinto becomes the kind of state ideology. But that doesn't mean that becomes the state church

because it's not a church in a sense. It's not a religion. So it explains and legitimizes the emperor. But yes, Martin... You three, I sort of give with one hand and take away with the other. We're bashing on. I want to go to this majorie restoration

of 1868. That's the imperial family. It doesn't come back. It gets in power again and Shinto becomes very, very important to it. And we're on pretty clear ground. Shinto is established. It is Shinto. It doesn't do this, it doesn't do that, it doesn't do the other, but it supports and is claimed by the imperial family.

And then it is a force. When the Meiji restoration, you can tell us about this, Martin. What did that signify in 1868 and how did it... Well, you tell us about it. Well, I think I was slightly different with Luchero on this, because I think although it becomes this state national ideology, nevertheless the veneration of the emperor

as a manifestation of a deity of Akami is fairly central to that, because that then gives his words, his actions, a transcendent mystery and power, which means that they cannot be challenged in the way that, say, an elected prime minister or even a president for life can be challenged. So I would differ a little bit

because I do think that what is created relies upon a sort of, of continuing sense that there is more to this world than just this world, but that its major manifestation is in the power and magnificence of Japan. Japan becomes, if you like, the lens through which you can see both worlds, but it is very much focused on this world. What happens is, again, as Ruchy has said, Buddhism is effectively suppressed.

I mean, many of the statues have melted down and turned into guns and cannons, for example, to arm the new armed forces. But what then happens, and it goes, back to your question really, Melvin, as to what on earth is this stuff that keeps going on despite having no beliefs and so forth? You then begin to get these new

Shinto religion. So you have state Shintoism which is comparable, I suppose, to sort of the religion of the British Army and the public schools in the 19th century. Christianity was there to give you a backbone and to make sure you knew you were superior. And then you get, what's known colloquially, it's sect Shintoism.

And this emerging of new religious movements grounded in Shintoism. Tenricio would be perhaps a classic example. A woman in 1838 begins to have mystical experiences. She begins to channel the Kami. She is not linked in to any formal structures at all. In fact, she's been the poorest relative in a family and treated badly, a sort of Cinderella-type story.

And you begin to get these enormous quasi-sort-salvationary religions beginning to emerge. back to Richard's point about the influence of Christianity. So although you've got this heavy state system which, of course, crashes to the ground at the end of the Second World War and the emperor is declared no longer an god, he says so himself. You've had this undergrowth of new religious movements grounded in Shintoism, grounded in the Kami,

which is now beginning to be much more related to personal relationship with the divine. Can I just go to Richard? The Meiji Restoration, the extraordinary effect on Japan, where it just became a completely new place. It became agricultural. It became industrial. It hadn't much of an army. Quite soon it was conquering Russia.

And on it went. So did Chintot, what power did Chintot have in that? What place did Chintot have in it? Two ways you can put it. I mean, remember that, The Western powers were a great threat, and they could see what was happening to China, and they were damned if this was going to happen to them. What you needed was a spiritual underpinning, a new spiritual underpinning.

And as Martin said, the first thing to go, actually Buddhism went. You had to find something that would tie the nation together. To be tough against the West. To be tough against the West and to unify it. And it's called the Meiji Restoration. It's not called the Meiji Revolution. and what is happening in the minds of the rulers is that they are taking the system that existed in

or was idealistically existed in 700 and they are recreating it in a modern world and of course with all the powers that you have in the modern world it actually worked so a system that didn't really work in 700 was recreated in 1860 or let's say 18 to 860 or 1880, and actually worked. So you could create a system of shrines.

You say at the top, the emperor as the father figure, who had a link to the sun goddess. For the very, very first time, this became a proper system. Is it significant that it became a proper system which instantly became fascist? I'm asking you, which is. That's really a very important. very difficult question.

Necessarily. Not necessarily, no. I think maybe we can add to what Richard said is that there was an interest in choosing Shinto, not just because Buddhism was in the cave, but because Shinto could be

claimed as an indigenous religion. So there was a kind of anti-foreign movement that went into the major restoration that helped something that was not coming from outside. have influenced the pharmacist, but it looked very

Japanese to be used for that. I think when you talk about fascism, you're really talking about a whole load of other things. I mean, there's no essential link between Shinto and fascism. I would deny that. There was as much Buddhist ideology that went into the nationalistic. But nevertheless, it was very cozy with an imperial family, which

isn't a big point? It's obvious, isn't it? I mean, they had Shinto. You described the pyramid structure. You I'm looking at you Richard. Describe the control and that moved into a very straightforward fascism. Well it was but the fascism is the control over the emperor by

other forces. It is using that system. I don't even blame the emperor or the imperial family for any of it. In a sense it's a way that nationalism bends because that's the way that nationalism around the world is going. They look at Germany, the CR. That's how you are a strong nation

with a strong identity. You invent Ventim myth, the Aryan myth, aha, we can parallel with that. So they have Japanese supremacy myths. Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. So the fact that Japan is defined as the divine country, the country founded by the gods and therefore having a completely different status

among other countries. It's not God's own country, but it's close. Did the outcome of the Second World War, what effect did that have on Shinto, Richard? The effect of the Second World War? The outcome of it, the end of it. Well, you had article, in the new constitution, you had Article 20, which brought, because the Americans brought it in, the separation of state and religion. And what was the response to that? Of course, Shinto was now, the probium was piled onto Shinto because, of course, of the links to the imperial family.

And as you said, the sort of the links that happened to occur to the fascist links. But what... There was also push towards establishing what we could call freedom of religion. There were a lot of Christian missionaries coming in and claiming some space for themselves. So Shinto became a religion like the others. But it's now become a religion that is talking about the environment, talking about peace, it's changed utterly, Martin. It's in the process of manifesting an international dialogue.

mention, which is very different from what it had before. And you've got this real interesting tension in Ginger Hancho, the Association of Shinto Shrians, between the strong nationalism, which came out very powerfully in the tsunami and earthquake, in that the emperor went and gave an example, and the fact that they want

now be part of a wider world, but they're not quite sure what that world is. We'll have to end, I'm sorry about that. Thank you very much. Lucia Dolce, Martin Palmer, and Richard Powering. Thanks for There are many more Radio 4 arts and discussion programs to download for free. Find these on the website at BBC.co.uk slash radio 4.