In Our Time - The Korean Empire

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss Korea's brief but significant period as an empire as it moved from the 500-year-old dynastic Joseon monarchy towards modernity. It was in October 1897 that King Gojong declared himself Emperor, seizing his chance when the once-dominant China lost to Japan in the First Sino-Japanese War. The king wanted to have the same status as the neighbouring Russian, Chinese and Japanese Emperors, to shore up a bid for Korean independence and sovereignty when the world’s major powers either wanted to open Korea up to trade or to colonise it. The Korean Empire lasted only thirteen years, yet it was a time of great transformation for this state and the whole region with lasting consequences in the next century…With Nuri Kim Associate Professor in Korean Studies at the faculty of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Cambridge and Fellow of Wolfson CollegeHolly Stephens Lecturer in Japanese and Korean Studies at the University of EdinburghAnd Derek Kramer Lecturer in Korean Studies at the University of SheffieldProducer: Simon TillotsonReading list:Isabella Bird Bishop, Korea and her Neighbors: A Narrative of Travel, With an Account of the Recent Vicissitudes and Present Position of the Country (first published 1898; Forgotten Books, 2019)Vipan Chandra, Imperialism, Resistance and Reform in Late Nineteenth-Century Korea: Enlightenment and the Independence Club (University of California, Institute of East Asian Studies, 1988)Peter Duus, The Abacus and the Sword: The Japanese Penetration of Korea, 1859-1910 (University of California Press, 1995)Carter J. Eckert, Offspring of Empire: The Koch'ang Kims and the Colonial Origins of Korean Capitalism, 1876–1910 (University of Washington Press, 1991)George L. Kallander, Salvation through Dissent: Tonghak Heterodoxy and Early Modern Korea (University of Hawaii Press, 2013)Kim Dong-no, John B. Duncan and Kim Do-hyung (eds.), Reform and Modernity in the Taehan Empire (Jimoondang, 2006)Kirk W. Larsen, Tradition, Treaties, and Trade: Qing Imperialism and Chosŏn Korea, 1850-1910 (Harvard University Asia Center, 2008)Yumi Moon, Populist Collaborators: The Ilchinhoe and the Japanese Colonization of Korea, 1896-1910 (Cornell University Press, 2013)Sung-Deuk Oak, The Making of Korean Christianity: Protestant Encounters with Korean Religions, 1876-1915 (Baylor University Press, 2013)Eugene T. Park, A Family of No Prominence: The Descendants of Pak Tŏkhwa and the Birth of Modern Korea (Stanford University Press, 2020)Michael E. Robinson, Korea’s Twentieth-Century Odyssey: A Short History (University of Hawaii Press, 2007)Andre Schmid, Korea Between Empires, 1895-1919 (Columbia University Press, 2002)Vladimir Tikhonov, Social Darwinism and Nationalism in Korea: The Beginnings, 1880s-1910s (Brill, 2010)In Our Time is a BBC Studios Audio Production

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. This is in our time from BBC Radio 4, and this is one of more than a thousand episodes you can find on BBC Sounds and on our website. If you scroll down the page for this edition, you can find a reading list to go with it. I hope you enjoyed the programme. Hello, in October 1897,

the King of Korea declared himself emperor to match the status of the neighbouring Russian, Chinese and Japanese emperors with Korea's peninsular, his empire. This was a bit for independence and sovereignty, when the world's major powers, including those in Europe and America, either wanted to open Korea up to trade or to colonise it. The Korean Empire lasted only 13 years,

yet it was a time of great transformation for this state and the whole region, marked by modernisation and wars with lasting consequences. With me to discuss the Korean Empire are Holly Stevens, lecturer in Japanese and Korean studies at the University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh. Derek Kramer, lecturer in Korean Studies at the University of Sheffield, and Nuri Kim, Associate Professor in Korea Studies at the Faculty of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Cambridge and fellow Wollstone College. Let's start with you, Nuri. Who had been ruling Korea up to this point, up to the point where they declared themselves

to be an empire? So Korea is ruled by the E-family, the E-Dynasty, which has been ruled in Korea for about 500 years. 500 years. 500 years, yes. That's a very long time by any standards, especially compared to, let's say, even Chinese dynasties. The name of Korea is Joseon. That's the name of the dynasty.

And again, it is a dynasty that has demonstrated remarkable survival skills. Time and time again, they were threatened by various forces, especially large-scale foreign invasions, for instance, in the 16th and 17th century, invasions by the Japanese, but also by the Manchus who were taking over China as well. But time and time again, the Koreans managed and the dynasty managed to survive. So this attempt to turn Korea into an empire is very much another instance

of the dynasty trying to prolong its lifespan, although this time it won't be quite as successful. Its big mountain was China. How did it deal with China? That is actually a very important question. How do you survive? when you're such a small country located at the doorsteps of this huge behemoth, which is China. And so Koreans had to use a lot of diplomatic finesse. They had to use a lot of flattery.

And oftentimes they really had to buy into this role of being this very loyal vassal to China. How did they do that? They did so by sending a lot of tributary missions to China, sometimes even more missions than the Chinese even expected. What was a mission? A tributary mission is when you sent dozens, maybe even hundreds of delegates to China, along with a lot of tributes, actual presents. Gifts.

Yes, gifts. It can be gold, it can be silver, it can be horses, it can be people, eunuchs and women. And were there any, were China edging to try to get hold of it? China, at least during the Chosun dynasty, there was no attempt to actually take over Korea because Korea was doing such a good job playing that role. a very loyal, very dutiful vassal state. So there was really no need for the Chinese to take over Korea. And this is what allowed Koreans to actually maintain a significant amount of autonomy.

Where does the name Korea come from? The name Korea actually comes from this ancient kingdom called Koguryo, which was established in the first century BC. Later on, the name was shortened to Kordi. And then later on, it was also revived in the 10th century by another Korean dynasty, which is called Kordiorei dynasty. And this is the time when Korya dynasty, and this is the time, Koreans had some very limited contact with merchants from the Middle East, and they then

introduced the term to the West. And Kordiard then becomes Korea. And this is, in some ways, it's an anachronistic term. It's referring to Korea by this very old name. And Koreans, of course, no longer used the term, but it's the term that has become the official term here in the West. Holdie, how had Europe and America been trying to open up Korea? Up until the mid-19th century, there's a certain amount of mutual disinterest, honestly, between Europe and America and Korea. On one side, the Koreans through their regular tribute missions to China, they have a window into seeing the events that are happening in China when the Europeans are getting involved in China and playing more of a role. And so on the Korean side, they see the potential engagement with the West as potentially disruptive, either through trade or through, missionary activity, Catholicism, is considered quite subversive. So on the Korean side, there's a

lack of interest in engaging, especially because, as Nuddi mentioned, the Koreans are trying to avoid giving China any excuse to interfere in Korean affairs. Korea really guards its autonomy. And so by deflecting Western engagement, Koreans believe that this will also prevent increased Chinese involvement in their affairs. On the European and American side, there are some attempts to approach Korea, but this is really not a large-scale or concerted organized effort. It's really individual ships, chancing things, trying to show up and see if they can make any advance.

But again, Korea is quite good at presenting itself as poor, lacking resources, and it basically tells them, go back to China and talk to China. We're not allowed to talk to you. This changes somewhat in the mid-19th century. a French missionary actually sneaks into Korea and is discovered and is executed. And also an American trading ship tries to sail down the Tehrong River, and it is destroyed by the Koreans, including all of the crew. And so from the mid-19th century, France and the United States,

they act a little more aggressively toward Korea. They both send punitive missions in 1866 and 1871, but the Korean military is able to rebuff those quite well, because they're relatively small scale. So why did it open up to Japan in 1976? I think it's important to mention that Korea is still very wary of engagement with external, especially European and American countries at this time. However, things are changing somewhat.

There is a growing consensus among at least some Korean and Chinese officials that contact with Western nations is, inevitable to some extent. And so even though there is this weariness, it's considered beneficial if Korea were to defensively engage with foreign powers. And so to prevent a larger scale military conflict. And so gradually, there are a small number of Chinese and Korean officials who come to share this understanding, especially looking at the experience of China and Japan and, you know, their inability to also prevent this kind of engagement. Another change that we see,

so Kou Jong, the king, came to the throne in 1864 when he was still a minor. And so for the first decade of his rule, his father, the Teuong-gun, ruled on his behalf. And the Teuong-gun was much more conservative in terms of his outlook and willingness to engage with foreign powers. Kojong comes to the throne, like to rule for himself in 1873. And so he starts then to lean into this more moderate approach to cautiously engage with foreign powers. And so when Kodong is sending diplomatic missions to China, he's instructing some of those officials to find out more information.

And so when the Japanese arrive in 1875, very much emulating how the Americans approached Japan, the Koreans are ready. And so they do seize this opportunity to gradually open. Thank you. Derek Kramer, so Korea is looking around in the 1880s, seeing what others are doing, how did Korea start to modernize? So at the time, there's very few people who are using the language of modernization. Generally, the conversation is about engagement and opening up.

And this happens on two registers. Holly already mentioned the types of debates that are happening at the level of elite politics. And we see the robust agency of this individual, we call them, The Taiwan Gun, he's a regent, Kojun's father, who is on the one hand trying to simply solidify state power, both because he's acting as a regent, and that serves him well, but also because of a certain uncertainty or concern about regional shifts and the overall stability of the peninsula. And so the types of reforms that are being pursued at this time, at the level of elite politics are usually characterized through state centralization projects. The two big ones would be

the reconstruction of Kjongbuk Palace in downtown Seoul. And this is, if you see a map of Korea, or if you tour through Seoul today, this is always like a popular tourist site. It's the center of the city. This was initially constructed when Seoul was established as the capital of the dynasty, was destroyed during those invasions by the Japanese that Nuriya had mentioned. It's in the 1860s that Kojong decides he's going to reconstruct the palace. However, he does this by way of issuing currency. So it's the start of decades of inflationary tendencies within the Korean economy. But this is one of the sort of two major interventions by the state at the elite level. The other is the construction of a modern military, the attempt to develop this.

This is following the signing of the Kongwa Treaty in 1876. A single unit within the Korean military is selected for modernization, new uniforms, new tactics, new training. So all this is happening at the level of elite politics. and you have various political factions debating about, like, how do we want to engage with the outside world? What is our policy towards Japan going to be? How do we cooperate with the Chinese while maintaining our sovereignty? At the same time, at the level of the everyday and at the level of socioeconomic exchange, Korea is in the midst of an enormous amount of tumult, right?

There's the effects of the Colombian exchange, right? For the preceding couple of centuries, you have new crops, new markets emerging, shifts in the demographic composition of the peninsula and new ideas circulating in. But Korea still caught up in the competition between its neighbors. How and why did China reassert itself in the 1880s? The reassertion of Chinese presence on the peninsula goes back to that new army that I mentioned, one of those reforms that characterizes some of the shifts that Kojong is pursuing. These soldiers are paid by gleaning the salaries from the other years. units in the Korean army that weren't selected for modernization. And eventually, these neglected

units within the Korean military, they rise up in this event called the Imogunan or Imo Mutiny. And they basically run amok in Seoul, targeting their perceived political opponents, burning down the Japanese consulate. The solution to this instability is the dispatchment of troops from China, who move into the peninsula. It's the start of a phase of Chinese political. and economic presence on the peninsula. Along the way, there are new trade agreements that are being signed. There's the circulation of traders and businessmen from China throughout the peninsula and a more robust presence of Chinese forces within the political sphere and the economic sphere

of the peninsula in the 1880s. Can I follow that up with you, Nuri? How much turmoil was Korea facing in the lead up to 1897 seems to being pulled in many directions? Yes, absolutely. There was a tremendous amount of turmoil. For instance, in 1884, there was this attempt to overthrow the government by radical reformers. They were not successful. Why were they not successful? Because they didn't have enough of a support base. They were very young radical reformers, but they were a little bit too far ahead of their times. Korean society didn't have necessarily an appetite for those radical reforms yet. And then, of course, we also have the emergence of new religious movements at this time. and especially millinarian movements.

That led to the 1894 Tongak Rebellion, which was the largest rebellion that the Chosan dynasty had to face throughout its history. That rebellion then led to the intervention of both China and Japan, which led then to the first Sino-Japanese War. And the war is fought on Korean soil over who gets to dominate Korea. Another thing that's taking place is, so for instance, the Japanese are now trying to assert themselves as part of that.

They actually assassinate the wife of the case. King, Queen Min. In response to that, the Korean king flees to the Russian legation. So Russia now plays a significant role in the Korean context as well. And the Korean government, the Korean monarch, they begin to side with the Russians. They begin to learn from the Russians. And partially, a result of that is then this transformation into the Korean Empire. Thank you. Holly, Holly Stevens. Why did Geng, the king, why did you want to declare an empire and himself, emperor, 1897. This addresses several different issues that have been fomenting in Korean politics for a while. On one hand, this really is the final severance of that traditional relationship that Korea has had with China.

China has already lost the Sino-Japanese War, and so this really is Korea formally and symbolically announcing itself as equal to China and also independent. And we can see this in some of the symbols that that Kodong adopts in declaring the Korean Empire. So traditionally Kodong as king, right, which would be lower than the Chinese emperor, he would wear red robes. And it was the Chinese emperor that wore yellow ropes. But after declaring himself an emperor, Koujong sometimes wears the yellow ropes, right, to formally symbolize to China that there is this big shift in their relationship. At the same time, as Nudi mentioned, in the midst of the sign of Japanese war, there's some large-scale reforms of the Korean government that have taken place. And this really then establishes a quote-unquote modern system

of government for Korea. Thank you. Derek, what modernizations were underway? Can we specify those? So there are a lot of changes afoot and they're happening across multiple registers. The opening of ports is allowing for the influx of commodities that are transforming the rural economies in really profound ways. Inflation that I mentioned when they rebuilt the palace, this is exasperated by the outflow of rice into regional markets, driving up the price of rice. That's something you eat, but rice is also something you buy with. It's currency, right? At the same time, you're having an influx of quality manufactured goods from abroad. So maybe you and your family had major living, I don't know, as leather workers or making straw shoes. And suddenly you're competing with the

products of an increasingly industrialized form of capitalism in Asia. So there is a tumult at that level. There's also transformations, though, in the realm of politics. We were at this point focusing on royal politics and elite politics. But with the emergence of the empire, ironically, there's also a new emphasis on the role of the citizen, the Independence Club. Part of their activism is built around working through newspapers and circulating new types of. types of ideas about what a citizen should be and how they should express themselves as Koreans. And that has a lot to do with the language that they're using, the types of scripts they're using, and the ways that they're thinking about China in particular.

Thank you. Nuri, there were so many other emperors and empires around the world at that time. What did empire mean to Korea? For Koreans, it largely meant an assertion of national sovereignty and obtaining parity with surrounding countries, especially Russia, Japan, and China. So it wasn't really about obtaining colonies and launching overseas expeditions. Koreans really couldn't afford these things, and they couldn't even think about these things at this time. And in fact, it's very telling to look at the first act that the emperor conducted as he was ascending to the imperial throne. The first thing that he did was to actually set up an altar and heaven worship altar.

Heaven worship. Yes, heaven worship altar. that was very much emulating the Chinese version that exist in Beijing. And he would conduct ceremonial offerings at the altar. Why was that so important to heaven worship? Because this allowed him then to proclaim himself to be the son of heaven, which is the emperor. So he was very much using the more traditional Chinese symbolisms

to assert his own imperial power. So this is an act of, in a way, defiance against the Chinese, because previously it was only the Chinese emperor who was able to communicate with heaven directly. and consider himself the son of heaven, but now the Korean king is making the same claim, so he's achieving parity with China. Thank you. Derek.

I also need to note, though, that intellectual movement, these reformers who are producing newspapers and trying to basically mobilize the citizenry of the peninsula to embrace global norms of civilization and enlightenment, they often do not articulate a robust critique of empire. So in particular, the Independence Club, their newspaper, the independent, would often celebrate the British Empire for being so successful.

And they would use that as a criticism of Koreans and of their own political position. This becomes a point of tension and irony once they themselves find themselves exposed to the interventions of a regional imperial power. If I could jump in, I think one of the ways that we see Korea try and maintain its sovereignty, it kind of follows that the pattern that you already mentioned, Nouri, of Korea trying to use its diplomacy. And so at this point, Korea really is trying to play other countries off one another. And so when the Chinese start to overstep and intervene too much in Korean affairs, Korea tries to then rely on the Americans.

And when the Japanese overstep and their bounds, Korea then tries to use interest from the Russians to counterbalance some of the demands from other powers. And so this, it worked for a while, but ultimately it doesn't really prevent what happens later. And then also they're mobilizing new ideas as well, right? So we've been talking about basically nationalism a lot, but this is also the era where we're seeing new ideas about racial solidarity and pan-Asianism and how different powers, different polities in Asia in particular, should collaborate and work together is a point of discussion and dissent at this time.

Can I come back to you for a moment, Holly? States need money, of course. Where did the East New Empire get its money's wealth from to modernise? This is also one of the challenges that the Korean Empire is facing. At this time, Chosun is an agrarian economy. And so even though for several hundred years, it's had relatively stable finances, even to the point of being able to mobilize funds to support famine relief, when it comes to modernisation projects, a lot of these are very expensive. What projects are there before you tell us? How expensive. Improving the military, upgrading some of the military, but also introducing new infrastructure,

like telegraph communications, importing new technologies, electrifying some of the palaces and introducing electricity. It's hard to finance them from the existing sources of finance. The land tax provides the majority of the Chosan state's income at this time. However, there's only so far you can raise that before you start to then provide frustration and prompt sources of rebellion and revolt in the countryside. One of the first projects that the Korean Empire does engage in

is a large-scale land survey trying to get more land onto the tax registers and increase tax receipts in that way. But this is a slow process. And again, there's a limit to how high you can raise your income from the land tax. Other sources of finance, there's some new revenue coming from customs receipts for the new trade that is taking place in the port cities. However, there are limits just based on the volume of trade that is taking place, as well as some of the terms of the treaties are unfavorable, right?

Some of these treaties that Korea has signed, they do mimic some of the unequal treaties in a way that we see in China and Japan, and so it's not quite as favorable to Korea as it could be. Other sources of income also come with problems. So Korea can get loans, and it does get loans, chiefly from China and Japan. However, some of this comes with strings attached, especially when China and Japan are both trying to,

increase their political influence in Korea. And indeed, eventually, when Japan does try to leverage more of its interest in Korean politics, it uses these loans as a justification to have a greater sway in Korean politics, actively mimicking what Britain was doing in Egypt, using the loans as a pretext for further involvement in Korean politics. Thank you. Derek, Derek Kramer, can you talk about the kind of backing? Can we specify more that the changes were getting inside Korea? So one of the issues is that it's difficult to reach a consensus about what type of change is necessary. There's a broad understanding at this time that there are global standards and global norms that have to be reached, that have to be entrenched within Korea. But no one is on the same page

about what that might be. So if you're a missionary or a Christian convert, you might think that becoming a Protestant is conditional for establishing both oneself and the nation as autonomous and enlightened and civilized. It might be cutting your hair. It might be buying a certain product. The discussion at this time about civilization and enlightenment, about modernization in general is playing out in a variety of ways. But generally, the case study that's referenced as being successful as Japan amongst a variety of individuals and a variety of views. So just to say one, conservative confusions at this time are worried about all the changes that are being presented movement away from a traditional examination system, for example, that's based off of the Confucian

classics. And the argument that they would mobilize individuals who were sympathetic for the continuity of using a Confucian-based education system was occasionally that they would cite the Japanese and say, look, the Japanese as a success story of modernization have retained these traditions, retain this curriculum in a new way. There's similar debates underway about the use of language and about gender and class roles. So there is a consensus at the time that Korea is in a very difficult position. There's a lot of parallels being made between what's happening in Korea and what's happening in Egypt

and what's happening in Korea to Vietnam or the Philippines. But there's a lack of consensus about what should be done or indeed what could be done. Thank you. Nuri Kim. What signs were there that Koreans themselves were developing in our own? ideas of what it meant to be part of this new nation, this new world in a way. Yes, there were many, many signs. So, for instance, there were new ways of writing Korean history emerging at this time. And history begins to be written in a way that emphasizes Korea's autonomy from China. Korean mythology is being rediscovered and reinterpreted

to give Koreans a new useful past. We also see a re-evaluation of the Korean vernacular writing system, which had existed for a couple of hundred years by this point, But within government circles and especially among the elite, it was still classical Chinese that was the lingua franca. So now you see intellectuals emerging who are publishing entirely in a vernacular Korean writing system. At the same time, as Derek mentioned, there were still a lot of divisions. Koreans are not all in agreement about what the new Korean nation should look like. Some people want to have more political participation. They want to have a parliament.

They want to check the king's power. Of course, this leads to conflict with the government. But there are also other Koreans who envision Korea's future as part of this kind of pan-Asian community with Japan as the leader. And those people then would ironically begin to support the Japanese takeover of Korea. So you see, you have these widely diverging visions of what Korea should look like.

And again, maybe this is also one of the reasons why there was actually so much resistance against the Korean Empire, even domestically, from within Korea. Holly, if you were to look around the streets of Seoul, say, what changes would you be seeing? There are some infrastructural changes. Seoul gets a tram, a street car, there's electricity, and the electric company actually introduces films, movies, as a trying to just, like, raise more money because none of people are buying the tram tickets. I think, though, like Derek mentioned earlier, haircuts, and I think this points to some of the bigger, deeper changes that are taking place, right?

because there is a rural urban divide still. A lot of the changes in Seoul, they're limited to Seoul. But we can see this broader consensus forming around the need to reform. So in 1895, this is when Kodong announces a decree requiring Korean males to cut their hair. So traditionally, Koreans had long hair. It was believed under Confucian thought that you receive your body from your parents. And so you should not harm your body in any way. and that extends to cutting your hair.

So Korean males, especially elites, in order to prove their adherence to Confucian norms, which was one of the ways that they proved themselves as an elite in society, they maintained long hair, and especially the elites as well. They would form it in a top knot, and this also then grew to have a lot of symbolism of adulthood, masculinity in society. So when Kojong requires males to cut their hair, this is incredibly controversial in 1895.

The justification from Kodong is that this is more, efficient, more economic, it's more hygienic, it's a symbol of modernity, and yet it goes against a lot of the longstanding ideas that a lot of people had about their country and their place in the country. So there's quite widespread resistance to this. How successful was the resistance? Really quite successful. So initially, Kodong required people to cut their hair, and this gets walked back. It's become encouraged for people to cut their hair. Also, you see quite extreme levels of resistance. Some people commit suicide, either males or wives, on behalf of their husbands for the shame of having to cut their hair.

There are other people who close some of their shops in Seoul because they don't want to comply with the order. So they basically retreat from public life. So this is quite disruptive in 1895. However, throughout the following decade of the Korean Empire period, gradually more and more groups come to support this idea that you should prove your commitment to modernity by cutting your hair.

So we see, I think, newly mentioned that Tongak rebels earlier. they had quite, or wrapped up in some of the initial complaints of the Tong Hack uprising were more antipathy against some of the reforms. However, after the rebellion is put down, they split into some of these different groups, and these subsequent groups actually come out on the side of cutting one's hair and advocating for hair cutting. There's still a rural urban divide by the early 20th century in the port cities and cities. You're more likely to find though people with short hair. This becomes voluntary and encouraged for a variety of different reasons. Thank you, Derek. In 1905, the Japanese and Russian empires were at war and Japan won.

How did that affect Korea? This affected Korea profoundly. The war itself had its origins in the Sino-Japanese War, and the feeling on the part of the Japanese that their claims over Manchuria were frustrated by Russian, German, and French intervention at the end of that war. after the Boxer Rebellion in China at the start of the century, war again breaks out on the peninsula between the Russians and the Japanese. This is initially viewed through the lens of race.

This is the great race war of the 20th century. Certainly it was viewed in Europe as a war between white European civilization versus Asia, but also in East Asia, this is less well known, but it's also viewed through this lens. And so there is initially the hope amongst many reformers that, there would be a type of regional solidarity or a type of federation. Sometimes people would make analogies to the Austro-Hungarian Empire that whatever came out of this war would result in sovereignty, cooperation, and continued modernization between the great powers of East Asia. In fact, what happened was the consolidation of Japanese imperial power over the peninsula. Over the course of this

conflict, they build a railroad from Busan all the way up the peninsula. to Manchuria, eventually the Japanese, upon the conclusion of the war, begin to slow walk annexation or a series of policies geared towards eventual annexation. This most profoundly takes form through the establishment of a protectorate in 1907. How did the Koreans recognize when their empire was over, Nore? So I think they already knew it by 1905, and this is when Korea becomes a Japanese protection. which means that Korea can no longer represent itself diplomatically to the outside world. And at this time, you have the emergence of righteous armies, people who are rising up against

this. What do the righteous army do? Why were they righteous? This is a term that Koreans were using. These are, in a way, guerrilla fighters who are fighting against the Japanese at this time. Sometimes they also fight against Korean government forces, people who are disgruntled and dissatisfied with the political changes that are taking place at this time. You also have people committing suicide in 1905 once they hear about this protector retreat. So I believe that many people already knew that that was the end.

Although, of course, the official end of the Korean Empire is going to be 1910, but by 1905, they already knew what was coming. Do you want to do anything more at this day, sir? The type of irony, or the, not maybe irony, but the type of conundrum that the question of modernization and modernity forces upon individuals who are trying to avoid colonization, So the individuals that I was focusing on, the intellectuals who stay in the city and are publishing these newspapers and circulating ideas about civilization and enlightenment, they're often pointing to Japan as a success case to say, this is what we need. We need a railroad. We need hospitals. We need more hygiene. We need to cut our hair, a new education system.

We need different types of political reform, constantly referring to either figments of European political culture, or reforms done in Japan. What happens after 1905 is that the Japanese colonial state arrives and says, hey, you want those things, we'll give up to you, right? We'll build you a railroad. We're going to build you a hospital. We're going to implement educational reform. And it becomes very difficult for intellectuals who are pursuing a type of nationalist politics to find traction.

When their goals of modernization are articulated through the land. language of empire. How did Koreans build a sense of nationhood while under Japanese control? From 1910 onward, when Japan formally annexes Korea, any kind of political expression becomes very, very difficult within Korea. However, there were still a lot of Koreans outside of Korea. You have a very significant population of Koreans in Manchuria, in China, in Japan, as well as in the United States, and those people are the ones who continue to develop ideas about Korean nationhood and Korean nationalism. Now, because Koreans are scattered across the world, they all imbibe influence from different sources. And because of that, they also develop very

different ideas of what the future of Korea should look like. Some people would support a democratic system that Korea should look more like a Western democratic country. Whereas other people, they now look toward, for instance, Soviet Russia, and they take inspiration from Soviet Russia, and they believe that Korea's future allies with communism. So again, you have very widely diverging views of what Korea should look like, and these views then all in some ways begin to be reflected later on after 1945 in North and South Korea, and especially the competition between North and South Korea. Derek, would you like to come in? Yeah. This is a really important point that connects to the character of the peninsula today. Most of our conversation we've been focusing on intellectuals in the city trying to work out what civilization and enlightenment, what modernization means for them and navigating the politics. connected to that. But throughout this period, starting in the 1890s and continuing on afterwards,

there's just armed resistance in the countryside. It reaches a climax around the time of the Russo-Japanese War, and eventually individuals who are fighting against the colonization of the peninsula are pushed out of the peninsula into Manchuria, but it stands as the germ for two tracks of nationalist resistance, one that tends to be a bit more urban, intellectual, gradual, and moderate, and one that tends to be a bit more violent, direct action-oriented, and that's unfolding outside of the peninsula. By the 1930s, the second of those two seems completely implausible, but by 1945, if you're someone like Kim Il-sung walking out of Manchuria, walking out of that tradition of armed resistance, you have an enormous amount of political

capital and domestic authenticity and authority that roots the establishment of the North Korean state. How did it go from one to the other? Yes, so in 1943, the allied powers decide that, for instance, Korea will no longer be part of Japan once the war is over. And then gradually, they developed this idea that, especially toward the end of World War II, that Korea should be divided into two for convenience sake. The north should be occupied by the Soviet forces, the south should be occupied by American forces. But that was initially meant to be a temporary measure, to disarm the Japanese. However, after 1945, once the Cold War sets in, of course, Americans and the Soviets, they're unable to agree on anything. They're unable to bring the two Koreas back together.

And this then leads to this kind of perpetuation of the division between North and South Korea. Derek, can you talk about this development from 1910 to 1945? It seems to be remarkable. 1910 to 1945 period, those are the two years that get booked end for Japanese colonization of the Korean Peninsula. I think as we've already discussed, it's a much more complicated story than that, but those are the two dates that will appear on a high school test, certainly. And then that period is broken up into three chunks conventionally. The first is a phase of intensive military rule. The second is a period that is characterized by a period known as cultural rule. that is characterized by a form of greater cultural expression and productivity, and then a final

phase of wartime mobilization. The main pivot points in that broader story is 1919, where there is a vast outpouring of political protest, popular protest on the Korean Peninsula connected to the March 1st movement. The second pivot point is in the 1930s with the outbreak of the second Sino-Japanese war and the establishment of total warfare mobilization culture on the Korean Peninsula as the empire itself is pulled into these massive conflagrations with first the Chinese and later the Americans and British empires. Holly, what were the longer term implications of this period for Korea and the regions? That's a good question because on one hand, it's a very short period of time

and it becomes even shorter when you start to factor in the increasing Japanese, his involvement. Japan declares Korea a protectorate in 1905. And so this starts to then limit some of the actions of the Korean government. However, I think we've already talked about some of the longer standing legacies that do come out of this period. Nudi already mentioned the nationalism, right, some of these symbols of nationalism and the narratives that Koreans are telling themselves about their country and their history. A lot of these carry forward into subsequent ways that Koreans view themselves. We can also see changes in some of of the institutional basis of the government. So, you know, the idea that the government is trying

to get involved in the economy to try and strengthen industry for Korea's own benefit. This continues into the colonial period, the colonial government, it changes the direction of some of this intervention, but it continues to build on some of these new mechanisms that the government has already established to, like, try and intervene with the population and the economy. We also see the beginnings of some of the modern education movement, especially in the growth of private schools, that just expand further once we get into the colonial period, as well as then some of these logics that will inform the independence movement into the colonial period, the idea that, you know, Koreans should strengthen themselves against foreign aggression. This then gets transformed into the

idea that Koreans need to strengthen themselves to overthrow their imperial master. There's quite some continuities that carry forward. Thank you. Derek, can I come back to you now? Are we approaching the time when we have a north and south divide in Korea? And if so, how did it come about and what did it mean? In terms of a reflection on the empire of Korea, there is a pretty stark division. You can imagine in the north how all of this might be viewed. Okay, we have like an emperor who's decided that they're going to guide the way into the future through expressively non-democratic, but also not really informed by class,

like any awareness or concern about class. And so in the north, the evaluation is that this is broadly a failed experiment. In the South, I think there's a bit more sympathy for the ideas and for the attempts by not just Kojong, but by the kind of variety of political actors at the start of the 20th century, who are trying to basically find their way out of what seems to be of what was, indeed, just a very difficult political set of circumstances. Not only that, but in the South in general, this period of time is brought into a larger story about the origins of political citizenship and broader ideas of equity and democratic structures, formations of governance. So it is a notable difference between the North and the South's evaluation of this period.

So, Nuri coming to you first, how does this period in Korea now look to Koreans, So Koreans are very much divided on this. The scholarship is also divided on this. I think you have some scholars who view this period more negatively, who blame the monarch for the loss of sovereignty. And of course, even back at the time, during the time, there was a lot of criticism of the monarch that maybe he's not doing enough, maybe he's not making the right choices, maybe he is still too much caught in the old ways because he was still consulting shamans and things like that. At the same time, there also seems to be a re-evaluation taking place. On the one hand, it seems to be just a very, very difficult situation to be in for the Korean monarch at the time. The question is, what could he have done to really avert Korea's fate?

And the question is, maybe not much. Maybe he did the best that he could do, considering that most countries or many countries at the time were colonized, to assume that Korea could have somehow averted that fate would assign too much uniqueness onto Korea. and that seems to be another scholarly perspective. So there seems to be also the emergence of this kind of more sympathetic view of this Korean monarch as this almost like tragic hero. Yeah, I would just add to that. I think one of the big changes has been for a lot of the previous history about this period.

The big question was like, why did Korea not maintain its sovereignty? And is it a successor or failure based on its ability to maintain its sovereignty? However, in more recent years, people have taken a much more expansive and holistic view of this period trying to look for some of these longer changes that we've been talking about, like looking at the nationalism, the birth of the publishing industry, broader social changes. And so when we look at the Korean Empire in these terms, it does change our perspective. Thank you very much to Nuri Kim, to Hollis Stevens and Derek Kramer. Next week, the physicist Lisa Meitner, widely recognized now for her crucial role in discovering nuclear fission.

Thanks very much for listening. In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material from Melvin and his guests. We'll start with you, Derek. What did you not get time to say that you would like to have said? I think what I didn't get out across was the degree of tumult that define this period and that the breakdown of not just sort of the types of economic or social conditions, but epistemic formations that have been so important for people, just to live their everyday lives.

When you switch calendars, you are transforming how people are interfacing with everyday life, which was one of the reforms. When you get rid of an examination system and change how individuals, intellectuals, advance their ways, advance their careers, you're completely upending how knowledge is disseminated and circulated. when you go ahead and change national scripts and say that basically Chinese characters are

anachronistic and backwards, you're challenging how knowledge is structured, what a canon even means. I think often we feel like we're living in a time of change and rapid transformation. But I think in many ways what we encounter today pales in comparison to the Tomolt that individuals living in the early 20th century pales in comparison to the tolmelt that characterizes in the characterize their life. Do you want to say anything? For me, I think one of the things that I would like to re-emphasize is the importance of religion and

the importance and the prominence of religious movements. You have the emergence of native Korean new religious movements but there's also, of course, the influx of Protestant Christianity, which is seeing a tremendous amount of success, even to the surprise of the missionaries themselves.

And these forces, all, they play a significant role in shaping some of the political events. They shape a significant role in shaping the direction of modernization and sources of modernization because a Protestant Christianity also becomes a source of modernization in Korea at this time. So again, and this kind of, again, adds to this idea of Korea being torn into many different directions. You have native religion, you have foreign religion, you have foreign political powers, but also foreign religion as a source, not just necessarily of oppression, but also of

some sort of positive development. And a lot of people wonder why Protestant Christianity was so successful in Korea. And this can be partially explained with reference to this period, that Protestant Christianity did offer something to the Koreans at this point. And it was not necessarily connected to an imperial power, at least from the Korean perspective. And what about you, Holly? I mean, we've focused a lot on Korea and issues taking face in Korea, and rightly so.

But I think one thing we really also need to be aware of, is the scale of the international, if not hostility, but antipathy or indifference to Korean sovereignty at this time. After the Sino-Japanese War, Japan actually tries to stake a claim on the Liaodong Peninsula, which is a part of China just to the northwest of Korea. And this is rebuffed. France, Germany, and Russia, they intervene known as the triple intervention to basically deny their claim on the behalf of Japan. But what happens during the Korean Empire period, we start to see Japan. We start to see Japan, and making more and more agreements with other powers, in particular the Anglo-Japanese Alliance of 1902

and the Taft-Katsuda Treaty with the United States in 1905, where Britain and the United States essentially recognize Japanese interests in Korea. And so when Japan starts to then more aggressively intervene in Korean politics and declare it a protectorate and start undermining some of the autonomy of the Korean government, Korea and Kodong, like they try to appeal to other countries. they send an emissary to the Hague to try and drum up support against Japan. But, you know, a lot of the countries just turn a blind eye. And so this as well, I think it's one of the reasons why, you know, we shouldn't look or we shouldn't judge the Korean Empire on its success to stave off foreign imperialism because to some extent this was out of Korean hands.

Well, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you very much. Oh, my goodness. Your copy of the Jericho's in Korea. I'll have some tea, yes, please. Yeah, tea please. Three teas, thank you. Thank you very much, Derek.

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