In Our Time - The Opium Wars

Episode Date: April 12, 2007

Melvyn Bragg discusses the Opium Wars, a series of conflicts in the 19th Century which had a profound effect on British Chinese relations for generations. Thomas De Quincey describes the pleasures of opium like this: “Thou hast the keys of Paradise, O just, subtle and mighty opium”. The Chinese had banned opium in its various forms several times, citing concern for public morals, but private British traders continued to smuggle large quantities of opium into China from India. In this way, the opium trade became a way of balancing a trade deficit brought about by Britain's own addiction...to Indian tea.The Chinese protested against the flouting of the ban, even writing to Queen Victoria. But the British continued to trade, leading to a crackdown by Lin Tse-Hsu, a man appointed to be China's Opium Drugs Czar. He confiscated opium from the British traders and destroyed it. The British military response was severe, leading to the Nanking Treaty which opened up several of China's ports to foreign trade and gave Britain Hong Kong. The peace didn't last long and a Second Opium War followed. The Chinese fared little better in this conflict, which ended with another humiliating treaty.So what were the main causes of the Opium Wars? What were the consequences for the Qing dynasty? And how did the punitive treaties affect future relations with Britain?With Yangwen Zheng, Lecturer in Modern Chinese History at the University of Manchester; Lars Laamann, Research Fellow in Chinese History at the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), University of London; Xun Zhou, Research Fellow in History at SOAS, University of London

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Thanks for downloading the In Our Time podcast. For more details about In Our Time and for our terms of use, please go to BBC.co.com.uk forward slash radio 4. I hope you enjoy the program. Hello, today we're discussing the opium wars between Britain and China in the 19th century, a conflict that forced China to open its doors to trade with the Western world. Thomas de Quincey describes the pleasures of opium like this.

thou hast the keys of paradise, oh just, subtle and mighty opium. The Chinese had banned opium in its various forms several times, citing concern for public morals, but the prohibition was ignored. The East India Company held a monopoly of the production of opium in British India. Private British traders continued to smuggle large quantities of opium into China.

In this way, the opium trade became a way of balancing a trade deficit brought about by Britain's own addiction to tea. The Chinese protested against the flouting of the ban, even right into Queen Victoria, but the British continued to trade, leading a crackdown by Lin Zishouet, a man appointed to be China's opium drug Tsar. He confiscated opium from the British traders and destroyed it. The British military response was severe, leading to the Nanking Treaty, which opened up several of China's ports to foreign trade and gave Britain Hong Kong.

The peace didn't last long and the second opium war followed. The Chinese fared little better in this conflict, which ended with another humiliating treaty. So what were the main causes of the opium wars? What were the consequences for the Qing dynasty? And how did the punitive treaties affect future relations with Britain and was the outcome even positive for China? Joining me to discuss this, a Yang Wen Zhong,

lecturer in modern Chinese history at Manchester University, Lars Laman, research fellow in Chinese history at the School of Oriental and African Studies, or SOAS, at the University of London, and Shun Zhou, also a research fellow in history, at Soas. Yang Wen Zhong, Britain was keen to trade with China. Can you give us some idea of how important China was

in the, say, late 18th century in terms of wealth and influence? Right. I think China was very important because Britain needed tea and tea could only be procured from China. So that was the key, I suppose, that why the West went to the east. It was thought by some to be the wealthiest country in the world in the 18th century. Can you give us some idea of where it's worth lay? Well, generally speaking, historians have

been arguing that 18th century China probably was richer than 18th century England. It's very possible. What other goods were the British seeking from China? Mainly, I would say tea, porcelain, soap products, and other

things, mainly tea. And this we're talking about a sea trade because they'd been a land trade for a long time, hadn't they? Right. The land trade was carried on at the same time and we called the Silk Road on Land and this one is called the Silk Road on the Sea.

And the Silk Road on Land was earlier, it was carried on later but not to a substantial extent as on the sea. And recent studies have shown actually it was the Portuguese who first discovered and shipped opium to China.

Yes. British made several diplomatic overtures to China. Can you tell us about Lord McCartney's visit in 1793. Lord McCartney went to China and the big story was whether he kowtowed or not. In the Chinese literature, they said he did. And in the British literature, it says he didn't. It was a failure in the sense that he didn't procure any treaties or favorite nation trading status for Britain. Can you tell listeners what kowtying actually meant? Kowtowing meaning kneel down and hit your forehead on the ground three times when you see the sovereign. and this was too much for Lord McCartney and allegedly he said that he only performed the conventional gestures he would do to his own sovereign

which is one knee down and bowing his head this is a big dispute in the business, in the history business whether he count out or not. Can we develop that, Las Lam and the Qing dynasty they'd ruled in China since the 1640s? Can we develop the idea there of not being too keen on commerce with other countries? I would say that the opposite is the case.

The Qing Dynasty actually a very open empire. They established contacts with the neighbours to the north and also after they had pacified the borders further to the west, as well as in the area which is nowadays, which sometimes was referred to as Indo-China, northern part of Vietnam, for example, was under their control. But they had a very active policy of encouraging trade. they were not to close empire.

So what was the problem with the British thing? Because that clearly was a problem. I said, yes. Yes, they come in during a period within the internal development of the empire, the early parts of the 19th century, when internally, both internally and due to external considerations,

for example, the growth of the relative military power of the British and especially the East India company in India, when the Qing dynasty saw the need to apply the breaks in the involvement of foreigners. Can you tell us about the trade balance between the two countries and before the first opium war? Well, it changes very rapidly in the two or three decades before the opium war, but in essence... So we're talking about the first two or three decades in the 19th century. In the 19th century, that's right.

Can you give us the main points then? When it comes to the import of tea, we look at the figure of about six million silver dollars for the 1830s, which the British would have to pay in silver. Every year? Every year, yes. Where did you get that from? This silver was part of a global movement, which originated from the silver mines of South and Central America,

and then via the trade triangles which the colonial empires were constructing during the precisely this time, they found their way into China, and that's why China is actually referred. referred to as the silver grave of the world, because every silver dollar that is minted would end up in China soon or later. So the silver's going out and we're running out to silver, Shunzhou, and we need something else to trade with China to bring back this massively important tea. Can you tell us how, in the beginning of the 19th century, how this led to using opium as a trade? Well, opium was one of the most desirable goods apart from silver

because it's a bit like wine, you know, opium can be kept, can be hold and can, you know, and the price of opium fluctuates according to the market. So in the sense, opium is one of the most desirable currency and also because opium it's easy to carry, whereas in China there was another currency which is copper, which is very heavy, it's very difficult to carry around. So for the Chinese merchants, they much prefer to have opium instead of copper because there was a shortage of silver, so they need, you know, like opium to replace that. Did the British work this out, or did they stumble on it?

Did they say we have the great poppy fields in India, we can reap, harvest opium, poppies turn into opium from there. We have a good form of currents, and we'll use it to buy our tea? Well, I would say they happened to be there. I mean, the British were not the first one to bring the opium to China. In fact, back in the 9th century, Arab has already started to bring opium into China, but the quantity was very small,

and China also produced its own opium in some parts in south of China, also in south-west. At the time, opium was mainly used as medicine, was exclusively used as medicine. The quantity needed was very small, so only very small amounts being brought in. Then eventually Arabs replaced by the Portuguese. Then the Portuguese also in the 16th century,

they introduced another kind of new mode of delivery system, like the smoking from the new world into China, which became very widespread in China, and it really took off, and which paved away. for the opium smoking in China from the 17th century onwards. And opium smoking transformed opium from medicinal products to luxury pleasure and which helped the kind of widespread of opium in China.

And so it created the market. And by end of 18th century, 1793, the British starts the monopoly of opium production in Patna, and which was far superior quality of opium than opium produced anywhere else which become the most desirable opium in China. That's why the demands for partner opium was really huge and so the British sort of was able to, you know,

kind of control the trade more or less. Excellent. Can you just give us, before we move on, give us some idea of the massive need in Britain for tea because I think this might strike some listeners as amusing. but it was an enormous quantity that was demanded by the British public at that time, wasn't it?

What happened in Britain is the same process that we can also see in other industrialising countries. It's essentially the transition from an alcohol-based mode of refreshment and also provision of energy to one which is based on a new world commodity or on imported commodities.

And of course we have chocolate, we have tea, and then we also have sugar, which are all colonial imports. Now, this essentially created the basis for a completely different diet. The breakfast, as we know it today, was essentially invented. That meant that every single household in Britain had to switch from beers, which would be produced, brewed the night before, to tea. So it was an enormous figure.

You wanted to come in. Yes, opium smoking was part of a larger consumer trend that started the Ming Dynasty, that lasted until the republican era even today, is to consume foreign goods. So it's part of a larger thing. But although it became the lead consumer item, and so it had a process of filtration down the class line, going from luxury item to a common necessity in almost 500 years' time,

just like tea, the process of tea, how did tea become a working-class drink? And by the time that the British came in in the 18th century, early 19th century, it was the time when it went to through watershed. Can I ask you, Juncker, they're trying to, Chinese, Qing Dynasty are trying to ban opium in the early 90th century. Is this to do with worries about the public health

or to do with the fact that this is depleting their silver stores? Their silver is now having to go out for opium? Well, there was several reasons. I mean, it's partly to do with social control because opium smoking originated from South Coast where Qing has been having difficulties of control these border areas.

And so, you know, like opium was smoked in groups and which was saw as some kind of potential, you know, like threat to the control. And also there was internal conflict within the Manchu courts and Han officials has used anti-opin as a vehicle to challenge the Manchu authorities. So they argued on the grounds that opium smoking causes social decay, moral decay. So we've come to this man, Lin Zer Chui, who was appointed by the emperor to stamp out the opium trade. Can you briefly tell us what sort of man he was and then what he did? Well, Lin Zayshu, he was born in 1785, a lady of Fugianese.

We know that Fujian is one. of the points where opium smoking was first introduced into China. And then we don't really know very much about him except he was extremely clever, and age of 14, he already got his first imperial degree. In 1811, he got the highest form of degree and entered the Imperial Academy. Then after that, he had a series of very successful civil servants, Korea. Before the opium war, he was more known as reformer, and that was probably his greatest contribution. But what he did, as I understand it, was that he demanded all the opium,

and the traders retreated to the 13 industrial. Yeah, the factories, and he surrounded this with the army, and they withstood the siege for two months, and then they gave in, and he got his hands on all the opium. Yes, yeah, he did. And then after that, can you say, can you? take up the story now, Yang Wen? Yeah. He went to

Canton in early March. Then he ordered the surrender of opium when they didn't. He surrounded the factory and at the end of March and the siege lasted about two months. Finally, they left the house, the to think factories with the opium there. They didn't,

there's a difference between surrender and all that. He got hold of the opium. He burned them on the 3rd of June. Official figure, a great figure of my economic, his historians about 20,283 chests. And he started burning on the 3rd of June. It took three days, burned with fire, salt and lime and rushed out to the sea. And the ceremony was witnessed by three missionaries. It lasted three days. And the third of June today is still commemorated

as anti-drug day in China. We had the British, we had Charles Elliott, the British chief superintendent of trade. He was based in Canton. How did he react to this? Well, first of all, we have to clarify that this was not a sudden war. This was a period of tension which built up. And Elliot was very much involved in that from the very beginning. So he, and I have to stress again that the official British involvement is actually one that respected the laws of the Qing Empire. So you will not find the East India Company legally importing or smuggling opium illegally. Nevertheless, Charles Elliott, who was an upper-class Scotsman, and he was a bridge chiefer's

man, played a role in this. He did, yes. He was very much in favour of extending the opportunities for British traders, and therefore by extension for foreign traders in general, European traders, by flouting the regulations. And there's a certain discrepancy in the way that. Qing regulations are seen by the people on the ground, especially the Western merchants on the ground, because they were just aware of the corruption that existed at petio-official level,

whereas the East India Company would have been familiar with all the laws. But nevertheless, Elliot decides to actually break the law, and he is involved directly in, that's after the destruction of the opium, in conflicts between, well, I would refer to them as pirate ships, commissioned by him and his supporters, and war junks. That's what characterizes the next phase of the. So he actually unilaterally takes it, punishes the Chinese for what's going on. Yeah, can I just clarify something here?

I think actually initially, he actually compiled the Chinese rule. He actually ordered the British merchants to surrender opium. That's why they handed the 20 chest opium. But at the time, it was also to the advantage of the merchants because it was so much an Indian opium came into China and which drove the price down, and the foreign merchants really had a problem how to get rid of those opiums.

So they actually were very happy to surrender the opium. And what happened was after Lin Zohsi burned those opium, the price of opium suddenly rose, the sword. It was sort of, you know, the demand increased ever more. After this opium was burned in public, the foreign traders, especially the British went back and complained mightily about this, and the British then sent forces there, which started the first opium war, so they cared enough to start a war about it. Well, again, there's a discrepancy between the diplomatic wranglings, if you like, and the situation on the ground, because what happened, what gave rise to a military response by Britain,

the increasing were increasing attacks by imperial war junks against traders, who I just now referred to as pirates, because that's more or less what they were. They were engaged in contraband trade. And it was this very determined reaction by the Chinese coastal defenses and navy that actually prompted the British to intervene. And they intervened with not just a seismic. fleet, but also with the latest

technology. They came with iron plated steamers, which the Chinese had never seen before. But Lin, it was considered by the emperor to have made a mistake here, because he was dismissed for having done this. And Charles Elliot was considered to make a mistake by his retaliation.

Two casualty of OTI. So they both were dismissed. But then when the British came with a very big fleet, which the Chinese had no idea that the British had this size of navy and this firepower. And things did get serious when we were into the first opium war. Do you want to take us from there?

Yeah. Can I make up a little bit before? After the burning of the opium, it was actually, as Laos said, it's a period of attention. What happened is the foreign merchant community, some went back to Macau, some went back to Britain. Some hang around Hong Kong. The real beginning of the war is called the Battle of Kaolung. It was in September when a bunch of foreign sailors went on to got drunk. and they went to Kowlo, because Kowlo is more sort of a village, has his grocery stores,

and they wanted to buy alcohol from a local grocer called Ling Wei Shi. And then the grocer saw that you are already drunk. I'm not going to sell you any stuff. And then they beat him up, and he died from the wounds next day, and that became the real cause of the war, because that made the Chinese coastal guards and start to fire at the foreign ships, saying you must hand over the carpet,

and you must stand over. That was the cause, the first shot to be fired. So that's that. So a British Navy, a part of the British Navy rolls up from East Indian and from itself, which is a massive navy. As Lars said, with armor-plated ships, and they opened fire. They were under the leadership of Henry Pottinger, who didn't even have to take the whole fleet up to Tianjin,

which is the throat of Beijing, which was where Elliot actually went, but didn't secure anything. That was the reason he was fired. And then Henry Paddinger didn't even have to go up there. He went to today's almost just halfway through, not even Shanghai, you know, going through into Nanjing. He managed to bring the Chinese down to their knees. And the treaty was signed on 29th of August 1842.

Why was the treaty of Nanking? Why was it called an unjust, an unequal treaty? He opened four more treaty pools apart from Canton and allowed the foreign countries to station councils. all this treaty port and you force the Chinese to pay indemnity to the British. And to pay the costs of the fleet turning up? That's right, yes. So it's an enormous amount of money. And they gave Hong Kong, Lars Lam, and Hong Kong, this rock was given to the British.

But this was a Chinese, this would have been a long Chinese tradition of giving land for peace. Can you tell us about that? First of all, I'd like to come back to the term unequal treaty. That's a term which is really coined from the 1920s onwards because it becomes part of of the nationalist propaganda that the 19th century problems of the Chinese Empire were actually due to the treatment it received by foreigners, which is definitely not the case, I would say. It was called Peace Treaty, wasn't it, in New Shulis. Now, there's a long tradition of exchanging part of the imperial territory for agreements, most importantly trade agreements. And the most important ones for the Qing Dynasty are the Treaty of.

of Netschinsk and of Kiyakha, which take us back to the beginning of the Qing Empire, where they traded whole swathes of territory up in Siberia with the Tsarist Empire. And that grew up beautifully because until today, with a brief exception in the late 19th century, these borders are respected and the trade between the two countries, including this sore topic of missionary involvement, it was actually, it never became a problem because of these treaties. Now, it was therefore almost natural that the Qing would opt for a very similar approach, trading a small piece of land in the sea, Hong Kong Island. Barron Rock.

Barron Rock, yes, it's usually referred to, for a trade agreement which actually profited the empire as well, because it was not an imposition of unbearable agreements. It simply meant that foreign traders could trade directly with Chinese traders rather than go through the, two-fold, three-fold obstacles which the Canton system had put in their way before. Can I come back to Shun Dua for a minute? So this is a, in Nanking, this is a peace treaty, and it's only later, as Lars has pointed out, it's about eight years later that this is then regarded the propaganda is that was on an equal treaty, and as often happens, you look back and you rearrange history in your own favour. But at the time, you're sure that the Chinese thought that this was fine,

and this was an acceptable treaty at the end of this first opium war? Yes, and it was fairly acceptable because this was not the first incident that a few years ago prior to sign this treaty, the Chinese has signed a treaty with the coquette in Central Asia under very similar terms, so it was quite usual thing for them to do. I disagree with that. I think the majority of Chinese literati and political elite did not think it was equal.

And I think for a long time, a lot of people, even in the 20th century, even educated people like my parents, could not come to terms with this. Yes, there is nationalism, there is re-definition of history, reinterpretation of history, true, I agree with that. But I think at that time and for a long time,

and that will take us to the consequences of the European world, which I would like to talk about, is this. But that is very much linked to the internal conflicts within the Metro Court because anti-opium has been used by the Chinese officials to use it to challenge the Metro Authority. And by the end of 19th century, with the rise of nationalism, anti-opium became a vehicle for, you know, the nationalism. And Lin Zeru suddenly got erected as a figure this anti-opian failure.

become anti-opium hero. So it's switching all the time here. I'd like to stick to this Nanking Treaty, though, while we're there. Why do you think it, why do you think it was unequal and thought to be unequal at the time? It shouldn't be said unequal. It's, you know, the term, bupinkedeng, it's invented by the Chinese in the early 20th century. Maybe it shouldn't be said unequal. I don't know, I don't have a good term for it.

But at that time, a lot of people did not accept it, and even in the 20th century, did not accept it. And maybe it shouldn't be unequal. Maybe it should be saying something else. I don't know what. About 14 years later, after heavy trading by the British and great British fortunes were made in the first half the 19th century in China, massive fortunes due to the opium trading,

what led to the second opium war which broke out in 1856? The second opium war really should be viewed as a continuation of the first opium war. was really the unfinished business. The incident that brought it out is a Hong Kong, a Chinese-owned Hong Kong registered, which means British ship, was searched in Canton. The Chinese suspected of piracy and opium smuggling, what have you. And the British was not happy with it.

And there was the talk about flying the flag. The flag was on. The flag was not on. Anyways, that was the excuse in many ways. and the British shelled Canton, then they went there, Lord Elgin, and captured its governor, and took him to India, who later died in India. And they took the fleet right up to the coast again to Tianjin, and they secured the Treaty of Tianjin.

And the treaty basically will allow the British to establish an embassy. You see, that was the thing that the first European War didn't get to legalize opium import. and this was also in conjunction with a French missionary being killed in China. The French demanded that they should allow not only missionaries, but open all China up. And what made it different was the Russians and the Americans joint forces. So they all procured treaties due to the second open war. Lars Laman, the Qing administration was trying to fight on several fronts here.

Well, that is precisely the reason why I would argue that the opium war and the difficulties with the foreigners in general in the early part of the 19th century, there were simply in a corner, in a remote corner of the vision of the politically more aware population at the time because they had genuine problems. And what were these genuine problems? These were problems concerning popular uprisings, millinarian movements, which had begun towards the end of the 18th century. By the middle of the 19th century, these uprisings were so significant that they actually threatened the dynasty, the existence of the dynasty. We all know about the Taiping, of course, the counter-dinistry, which was established with the capital in Nanjing. But that wasn't the only one.

We have the Nien uprising later. We have various ethnic uprisings in the corners of the empire. So these were genuine concerns. This is very interesting. You're saying that what we're talking about from our British perspective, the first opium war, the second opium war,

round a code, that sort of thing. These are, I'm exaggerating, okay? These are almost a sideshow compared with the big problems that the Qing Dynasty had elsewhere in China. These are cosmetic problems. Now, I'm not saying that the long-term influence of this was equally superficial,

because on the contrary, I think the long-term consequences, and I'm prepared to take criticism for that, we're actually very positive for the Qing Empire. We can talk about that in a minute, but I want to get through this Second War, so we know where we are. Can you tell us a bit about the effect of the Second Opium War

and then the Treaty of Tianjin that followed it? Well, the Treaty of Tianjin opened 10 more ports, treaty pools in China, but also opened up internal treaties within China, so foreign ships can now sort of freely levicate on the river of Yangtze, which really sort of opened up the inland China, and it also allowed foreign missionaries to go in, which previously they were not permitted to go inside of Chinese interior, but because of the Treaty of Tianjin has allowed them that freedom and you also

one of the other demand was to make opium trade legal or import of opium legal Is this a sense of imposition Yang Wen? Is it that now the opium trade is being forced on the Chinese because of this treaty

in a massive way? Many more ports are open, many more countries are involved even though the British have such massive resources having these poppy fields in India and this great post-Trophaga naval force. This is a sense of which we can say opium is being forced in in order to get the T.

God help us out. You can say that, I suppose, in theory, but the real picture is a bit more complicated. I think there is also the Chinese demand for foreign goods at that time, the Chinese dependency on foreign goods at that time. And also there's the opening... Which foreign goods were they? A lot of Yang Huo, you know, from the late 18th century,

chinoiserie goes, you know, all those sing-songs, not necessary from Europe. Some are from Southeast Asia to dyes, to cloth, to cotton products, a lot of new things, industrial revolution age stuff, a lot of things go into China because China was urbanizing rapidly. So the middle class needed those things. And also the Chinese government realized the urgency of modernizing. So they needed a lot of it.

lot of other things as well. And the Chinese merchants themselves would certainly welcome this and would lead to the early, you know, capitalization of China. Now, do you want to come in now? Well, again, that sort of emphasizes the point I tried to make early on. We have a process of rapid urbanization which focuses on these new treaty ports in China and it actually leads to the creation of something which many historians would refer to as of modern China, a socio-economic basis which actually provided the foundations for the Republic and then later People's Republic of China. And that demand for foreign goods underlines the willingness of the population to actually absorb things from abroad. So again, if the population had been so revolved by the

events of the Opium War, would they have accepted that? I don't think so. We've gone in a very short time, really, in three generations, from China with a great wall around it, not wishing to trade with anyone, when McCartney turns up in the 1790s, to a China that's willing to take or having to take a great number of goods from many countries,

and that you think is positive, or whichever way you look at it, for the longer-term future of China. It is, but, I mean, please always keep in mind that the 18th century, The latter part of the 18th century is quite an anomaly in the history of Chinese empires because most of the greater territorial Chinese empires are actually characterized by trade, extensive trade, intercontinental trade, and we can trace that from dynasty to dynasty,

and the Qing are no exception in that. So in a way, the events of the 1840s and then 50s, they actually correct this tendency. You opened China for free trade which become inevitable whether China wanted or not and which is a positive thing really. In fact, when you think about the European really contributes for China, you know, helped China to take up the international stage to become a member of international community, which is what happened in 2010 when China became one of the first country

to, you know, kind of joined the international bank and the first international anti-opium conference was holding Shanghai. Can you tell us the effect on the Qing dynasty of this Second War? I suppose it's long-term, and if you will, it's still going in a way, because it opened China up and the urbanization, commercialization, modernization, whatever process is still going on. I suppose there's also the difference of internal and external on the international stage. There's one thing that I would like to emphasize, and I'm slightly concerned with it,

is the West evolving from sort of gumboat diplomacy to human rights diplomacy, and now China is rising again. And at the time when Chinese officials who are steeped in the rhetoric of nationalism and integrity of Chinese empire, civilization, 5,000 years, what have you, all that, and you meet up with the foreign delegates, and, you know, they go, to China do business. At the end of the dinner, they always lecture Chinese officials about human rights. And for a lot of them, even people like my father, just that you have no rights to lecture me about human rights. You didn't treat me well. And I remember going to hear in Martin Wolf said

that. And how we treat China will affect, you know, the peaceful, the peaceful rights of China. That is my little concern as a historian, chain historian, that what the long-term consequences of the open walls. That's what I... So you're saying that the Chinese are still very resentful of the gunboat diplomacy of the British

and the way they were... Yeah. And that... I'm just trying to reinterpret it. Yeah, it's not... I suppose... Yeah, I'm saying it's selective memory is whoever is in power

and what personal, emotional baggage. Obviously, my father was quite resentful of being lectured by Margaret Thatcher's delegation on human rights. And he came home and said, You know, she has no rights like to me about human rights.

So you'll think, you know, this generation of officials, there are some people. For me, it's a different story for my generation. A lot of us, like Shun educated abroad, and we don't feel as strongly. But there are people. And there are the nationalist education. There are the textbooks. They're the selective memory. So we have to be careful.

Can you, sorry, do you want to be. Yeah, Opium war is still used in China as an important vehicle for, you know, promotes nationalism from time to time. They can dig out any time. Yes. Lars, do you want to come in? I'm still not quite clear about this human rights. I mean, human rights change. And I think being one country and another is never a very pretty sight.

But still, I don't quite get the point now. It's humiliation. Humiliation, a country suffered and the selective members. the country's historian, government, whoever is responsible for instilling that into history textbooks, making sure that younger generation remember that. You see, that's how Chinese the key. It's constructed.

It's around this theme of humiliation. And that's still there. Yes. In fact, Deng to the rights of China as well, you know, that China must emerge now, you know, to get rid of this humiliation, to wash away the human, you know, the memories of opium war, you know, the sufferings.

So this is fascinating. Just one second. So those two opium wars have that leverage today 150 years on for the last one or more. Well, it's not those two opium war. There's the century of unequal treaties. You're back to unequal treaties. Yeah.

Well, one of the last pronouncements of Deng Xiaoping before he died, and he died, of course, just before the handover of Hong Kong, was that with that handover, 150 years. of humiliation would be rectified and I'm sure he wanted to live to see that day but that wasn't to be the case. When did the opium trade between Britain and China Peter Art, how did it end?

It didn't end. He sort of eventually phased out partly because of the treaty. There was a treaty. Yeah, I mean there was. But by that time, the already, you know, opium was replaced by other new form of

narcotics and the market has changed you know, like morphine and heroin start to flood in the market. So by the 20th century it's quite different even though Chinese still used opium but it was quite exclusively kind of like it was also quite

expensive by then. But after 1870s the Chinese domestic market has sold the production, you know and it was a huge quantity of opium being produced inland China in Sri and the mainland which supplied

the larger Chinese market whereas the imports to the opium was very expensive for better quality was confined to the members of elite and wealthy people. So finally Lars you, just to reiterate the point that you make that you said you didn't know whether everyone

would agree with you that this opium wars and this opium trade had a positive effect in bringing China into the 20th, 21st century. Well, yes, or if you adopt the forward view, yes, of course, but you could also go backwards and say it brought China forward into the Song period when they had a very lively exchange with other countries. I don't quite think that we can see it in such a linear way. But in any case, it did contribute very significantly to opening up China's economy to the outside world. and then speeding up the process, which had already started centuries earlier,

of urbanization and commercialization of China's economy. And we can see the relative importance of agriculture decline rapidly during the very late 19th century. Republican period, because of all the warfare, there's a hitch. But then now again, we can see that the commercial sector, the industrial sector, I mean, has actually overtaken the primary sector, the agrarian sector. That is not the consequence of the opium war, but the opium war certainly contributed towards that trend. Finally, young, sorry, briefly, and then I want to go finally to do.

No, it actually just adds to what Lash was saying. That's the point I was trying to make earlier on about Lindsay. That was his greater contribution than his anti-opium legacy. It was that he was trying to introduce Western knowledge to the Chinese. He was one of the first ones to translate foreign books into Chinese. One of his book, which was published in 1841 called the Gazetteer of Four Conflicts, which supplied as a basis for other reformers after him. They used it on his book to compile other sources and introduce to China foreign knowledgees and foreign world, basically.

So he was in a way opened up the Chinese eyes to see the outside world. So these were the positive thing you were saying earlier. Yeah, yeah. But it was much more effective than his anti-opian measure, which turned out to be a failure. And finally? Finally, I think I'd like to encourage listeners to dig deeper into the open war, the trade, the sign of British diplomacy,

the extraterritoriality that really caused the war, the deaths of the grocer, and also the consequences of the war, of course, of the wars, is yet to be seen as China rises. So I encourage people to go and dig more into the war and see what we can learn from history as China rises. Thank you very much. Thanks, Yang Wen Zhong, Shun Zhou and Lars Laman, and thank you for listening. And next week we'll be talking about symmetry. We hope you've enjoyed this Radio 4 podcast. You can find hundreds of other programs about history, science and philosophy at BBC.com.com.uk forward slash radio four.