In Search Of Excellence - The Shoe Surgeon: $4M Sneakers, Legal Battles, & Creativity Hacks | E121

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

Dominic Ciambrone, known as "The Shoe Surgeon," is an artist, designer, culture creator, and entrepreneur. He is the world's leading creative custom shoemaker, renowned for crafting handcrafted, one-of-a-kind sneakers for celebrities like Justin Bieber, Drake, and LeBron James, professional sports teams including the Golden State Warriors and Miami Heat, and iconic brands such as Gucci, Bentley, Heineken, and Pizza Hut. Dominic has built a unique business by transforming ordinary shoes into wearable art, creating pieces that are both functional and collectible.Timestamps:0:00 - Introduction to Dominic Ciambrone’s journey.2:30 - How Dominic began custom shoemaking.5:15 - Sneaker resale market's effect on custom designs.8:50 - Collaborations with brands and celebrities.10:00 - Process of deconstructing and reconstructing shoes.12:15 - Influence of Dominic’s family on his career.15:10 - Early jobs and their impact on Dominic.18:00 - Overcoming challenges in the shoemaking industry.21:30 - Unique footwear and its personal connection.24:00 - Evolution from high school to now.27:10 - The significance of wearing unique shoes.30:20 - Branding journey of "The Shoe Surgeon."33:40 - Importance of mentors in Dominic’s career.37:00 - Persistence in securing learning opportunities.40:00 - Challenges and breakthroughs in starting the business.45:50 - Addressing mental health and self-care.50:20 - Social media’s role in Dominic’s success.52:30 - Launching SRGN Academy and teaching shoemaking.55:40 - Balancing work with physical and mental health.1:00:00 - Cost and value of custom shoes.1:03:00 - Dominic’s philanthropic efforts and community impact.1:05:10 - Personal goals and motivations in the industry.Sponsors:Sandee | Bliss: BeachesWant to Connect? Reach out to us online!Website | Instagram | LinkedIn

Back then, I mean, you could get away with copying the Nike logo. Today, you get sued and they shut you down very, very quickly. It's wearable art. It's like collecting art, right? Like, you know, I did the quarter million dollar shoe and now we're working on a four million dollar shoe. Can you talk about that shoe or who it's for? Or I'm going to build it and it's going to sell. It's not for anyone.

What goes into a four million dollar shoe? I mean, there'll be some American alligator and diamond. Welcome to In Search of Excellence, where we meet entrepreneurs, CEOs, entertainers, athletes, motivational speakers, and trailblazers of excellence with incredible stories from all walks of life. My name is Randall Kaplan. I'm a serial entrepreneur, venture capitalist, and the host of In Search of Excellence, which I started to motivate and inspire us to achieve

excellence in all areas of our lives. My guest today is Dominic Ciambroni. Dominic is an artist, designer, culture creator, and entrepreneur. He is the world's leading creative custom shoemaker and is known throughout the world as the surgeon. Dominic has built an incredible business by making handcrafted one-of-a-kind sneakers for thousands of people, including celebrities like Justin Bieber, Drake, and LeBron James, professional sports teams, including the Golden State Warriors and Miami Heat, and some of the most iconic brands in the world, including Gucci, Bentley, Heineken, Pizza Hut, and many others. Dominic, thanks for being here. Welcome to Insert to Vexful. Thanks for having me. So let's talk about the size of the shoe market itself before

we get into exactly what you do. So the athletic shoe market is $170 billion a year. If you look at it, Nike sells $47 billion of shoes a year. The custom shoe market is $738 million a year a custom shoe market is 738 million dollars a year it's going to if you believe the predictions 11 billion dollars by 2030 can you tell everybody exactly what it is and what you do um there's just an opportunity and you see it in all brands that people want something one-of-one, right? Whether it's a custom Rolex or a custom... Bentley. Like, everyone wants something that's unique to them. And why have something that many people have? And that's how I got into it.

All my friends had the same shoes as me in high school. I might have got them early and had them before them, but at the same time, they were all the same. So it was like, how do I make something for myself so I can, you know, feel unique? I think my son started getting me into the sneaker thing. He was 14 years old, and we walked into a store, and he said, Dad, I need a pair of shoes.

And I thought, all right, you know, you have 150 bucks to buy a pair of shoes. And he laughed at me. He said, Dad, you know, you can't buy shoes for 150 bucks. I said, why not? I walked out of there with Air Jordan, all blue. They were 170 bucks. And I went up to $300. And he explained to me how the whole thing works. So explain how Nike, for example, produces a quantity. And if you know the quantity, how people collect them and want them and how the minute they go on sale, if you're lucky enough to get one and you don't have a bot and you go through the app,

how much those shoes can be worth and why? Yeah. I mean, the resale market is insane and that's really what catapults Nike. I mean, Nike, I can't't i don't have the numbers of what nike produces but they produce thousands and thousands of uh different pairs and at a price point you know to you know between 180 to 200 for a pair so you know and then once they're all you know boughten up and then that's where they go on the secondary market where you can buy you know shoes from anywhere from you know 500 to a few thousand dollars for travis scott's right i love travis scott's got seven or eight pair now and just bought the golf shoes by the way okay i'm a horrible golfer you know what they're so nice i'm afraid of where i'm playing on the golf course

but uh i i think uh i think they're meant to be worn. Let's talk about collabs because, again, I think there's a lot of people listening to the show who don't know what a collab is and don't get, for example, why Nike would make a collab with a Travis Scott or some other brand. Yeah, I mean, Kanye West really kick-started all of that. You know, Kanye had a collaboration with Nike, and Nike wanted to give him what he wanted

and make his own soul. And originally, they told Kanye he wasn't an athlete, right? And Kanye would argue that because he is an athlete, the way he performs and, you know, the way he's on stage and how he actually has more, he can sell more than an athlete, right? So, you know, after, you know, you see the world we're in, like, you know, People are so driven by celebrities and they're so driven by a person

that all of these brands need a person behind it to help sell a product. So one of the things when, first of all, I've been a huge fan of yours. I've been following you and all your shoes are super cool. And for all the viewers out there wearing the shoes, you've got following you and all your shoes are are super cool and uh for all the viewers out there wearing the shoes you've got to go check out his issues they're absolutely

incredible one of the things that um i did in terms of the research when i saw you making custom shoes is how does i actually make them right and if you would explain for example how you take a pair of shoes you pull it apart and then you reconstruct it with different materials. So tell us how it works, and then how do you know it's not going to fall apart? You know, Justin Bieber is running around the stage like a crazy person, or, you know, LeBron's running down the court. How do you test the shoe? um well i mean i've been making shoes since i was 15 starting from paint just to pick then finding different paint and then learning how to sew on top and then repair i've learned shoe repair and and then i learned traditional shoe making and i've just been doing it for so long and

um i've studied uh on my own uh how to make, you know, we test some stuff, but at the end of the day, this is wearable art, and we want it to be worn. And most people don't even wear their shoes, uh, in an athletic setting. I mean, yes, I've made shoes for P.J. Tucker to play in. I've made shoes for Kyle Kuzma to play in. Football players scored touchdowns.

Um, so every... Odell Beckham's a huge... Yeah, yeah. Odell, you know, Odell Beckham scored, Cooper Cupp scored in a pair of my cleats. Jalen Ramsey, you know, got some blocks. And it's just... Everything's different, right?

So when I do a cleat, it's different than a fully reconstructed sneaker. And so if I were to take that shoe, I would completely take the upper off and I'd only use the sole. Let's talk about your family. You're born in Orange County, moved to Santa Rosa. Your dad, Lou, owned a restaurant and your mom was a chef in the restaurant. Tell us about the influence your parents had on you and your dad's work ethic and how what you saw influenced you as a kid and then now as a very successful business person yeah i think just growing up in the kitchen at for when i was young i didn't think

of anything of it other than i was ungrateful and then to see them just open up a dream and open up a restaurant and how normal it was to see as a kid it you know helped me realize that i could do anything and to see the creativity from the dishes and the, and the recipes to the front of house, to how the place at the restaurant actually looked. So, you know, to see the, the work ethic that my dad had and still has, um, you know, helped teach me to just work hard and, um, and just go after my dreams. I think a lot of us have jobs that we don't really like i mean you were a dishwasher at one point in the restaurant i worked construction i actually

dug ditches for the weight washers world headquarter building in michigan um i was a young kid i was thin i thought i was so cool i had my shirt off on the street you know getting dirty i cold called uh on the phone book people in detroit old ladies basically asked if they want a new siding or needed a sidewalk replaced but how important is it still to do this these kind of shitty jobs when you're younger and to go through it to figure out what you want to do and say this is not something i want to do and say, this is not something I want to do? I mean, I don't, times are changing so much and the younger generation now is so much different. And with all of the resources that you have out there, I don't know if you have to work as hard. I believe you should always work hard, but you can also, it's about working hard and smart. And yeah, I mean, there was jobs that

I did that I didn't love, but I did my best at them and always got raises and always grew within the business or the company. And, you know, I think it's important because even once you, if you have your own business, there's jobs that you don't want to do. And, you know, some people say, if you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. And that's bullshit. You work harder than you would for someone else. And, um... Yeah, it's just, uh... I think doing, learning to do, I mean, that's what school was for me, right?

You do, you go to school and I didn't like it, but I, you know, I did enough just to get by, and then the jobs that I did do, I did my best. And it taught me, even to this day, it's like you can do everything how you want, but there's going to be some things that you may or may not like, whether it's letting people go

or creating SOPs or whatever it is. It's like there's more to having your own business than working for one one you know one person you said something that i think a lot of people don't really get you know we have different people different groups watching my show you have kind of the 18 to 24 college kids recent graduates and we have people younger in their career maybe one one to 10 years out of school, and then you got kind of the 40 plus, that's really 25, 25, 25. And I think a common misperception is when you have a business, and I can't wait to give all my viewers a tour, because this is the sickest place

I've ever seen in my life, that people really don't want to do the shit work. And I tell my interns, I do a lot of coaching. I have 34 interns this summer. And I said, 90% of my job is really doing the shit work. So what's your advice to everybody out there who think this is so glamorous? You're the CEO, you built this business with tens of millions of dollars in revenue, and it's all glamour.

Yeah. I mean, I've had to, I've had to do shit work for a long time and there's still things that you have to do. And, um, I think that's what makes it special is like, I can, you can come in and do to any part of it. But like, I mean, I brought on a business partner six years ago. And, you know, first thing he did, even before I was my partner, he was sweeping the floors and making sure that it was clean. And it's like, I still would have to pick up trash. I still, you know, clean the toilet, like if it's dirty, you know, and it's like, you can't teach someone how to do that. You just have it. You just do it. Like, you know? And it's like, you can't teach someone how to do that. You just have it. You just do it.

Like, you know, I would do that anywhere. And it's just, I don't know. It's just instilled in me, I think. A lot of us, when we grow up, we don't really know what we want to do. We don't have special talents or skills. You always love building things. You like constructing things.

You're the next door neighbor, which I'd love you to talk about. But what about all the people out there who don't have a passion at a young age or don't know what to follow? Are they, should they be building and like tapped into something that many people don't, but at the same time, it took me 20 plus years to keep doing it, to really know that I wanted to do it. Um, so even while I was exploring that, I was very insecure of thinking that that was it yet. Even when I was making shoes for Justin Bieber, you know, 15 years ago, I still was just like unsure, right?

Because some months I'd make money and some I wouldn't. And it's like, that's not consistent or healthy. So I had to figure out how to turn it into a consistent business. But what I tell everyone, and that's why I teach classes and I teach workshops, it's about like, try as much stuff as possible. And that's what I do with my children. I have young kids and I let them try it's about like, try as much stuff as possible. And that's what I do with my children. I have young kids and I let them try as much as possible and then see what sticks for

them. So you don't know what you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. And you're not going to know unless you try. That's right. And failing is good. Yep. Yeah. You got to fail to succeed. Yeah. I mean, I believe failure is just a part of it. And if you really want to take a look at the word failure, it's quitting. It's failure is giving up or failure just means, yeah, giving up. But for me, in the sense that I've messed up so many pairs of shoes. I've, you know, lost clients. There's a lot of things that went wrong before it went right, you know?

Do you think the fear of failure is necessary to be successful? The fear of failure? As a motivator? I mean, it's definitely motivating. You know, you don't want to fail. And you don't want to... But, like, if it's crippling, that's definitely motivating. You know, you don't want to fail and you don't want to, but like if it's crippling, that's not healthy. Like it's better to fail than to never try at

all. Right. And anything, right. Just always move forward. And, um, you know, the fail fast, right. The faster you fail, the faster you get through and try something else. So let's go back to when you were 10 years old and you actually built a two-story fort at 10 years old i mean were you actually i was buying the wood and taking the nails and and actually i mean the thing worked where you could walk up and fall down yep no that's funny i was telling my my daughter the story last night about that um we were found one of my soccer coaches worked out of somewhere where i had that would leave a bunch of old wood and we so go we'd pick up different like two by fours and plywood and we'd grab it and then we'd cut it and screw it or nail it together in the backyard we'd have

stairs we'd have underground uh and you could sit up there too so i mean we built probably three four different types of forts so i like building but who who got the hammer and the nails for you i mean we had it mine probably either had it in the house or my next door neighbor who was a contractor. Yeah. And you went and watched him. So you can actually. Yeah, I watched him. I would go and just watch him cut wood, watch him put siding up and build the inside of the house.

I think people are watching you online now and saying, I want to build my custom shoes. Oh, yeah. How do you do it? That's why I teach. And there's so many people that reach out to me. They're we just watched you and your work and then we learned how to do it so i sold t-shirts in college screen printed i i didn't have the printer myself i would send them away and nike had to just do a campaign and you go on to the bookstore some of the t-shirts

are cool some are horrible. So I said, all right, I'm going to make my own. Basically, back then, I mean, you could get away with copying the Nike logo. Today, you get sued and they shut you down very, very quickly. You got into something a little similar, counterfeiting business, and you used your talents. Can you talk about what you did in terms of Chuckucky cheese and then the high school graduation tickets and yeah i was uh always trying to find a hustle and so in our high school we only were allocated so many tickets uh per family and all of our friends and family had a lot of family, so we needed more tickets.

And you can only buy so many. So we were like, well, why don't we just copy some? So I was copying and making tickets for a few years of my high school career so more people can come. And then something happened that had a consequence to your brother. Yeah, my brother ended up,

that was two years after I graduated, I think. that had a consequence to your brother. Yeah, my brother ended up, that was two years after I graduated, I think. He ended up getting caught, and he wasn't able to walk. He graduated, but he wasn't able to walk for the ceremony. I guess the lesson there is don't copy. Don't steal copyrights and IP. I mean, the lesson is don't get caught. Lessons don't get caught.

So let's talk about high school. And your cousin loans you a pair of Jordans. And they're up there? Yeah. That's the pair right there? Yeah, right there. Okay. So can I bring them down? Yeah.

Here are the Jordans. So she lends you this pair of shoes. By the way, this doesn't look like it's at your feet but maybe it's smaller yeah i mean smaller feet back there smaller feet but you know when you're a kid you didn't didn't matter you'd figure it out how to get your foot in the shoe you figure it so talk about um how cool it was to where i I think these are 1985 OG Jordan 1s. Yep. And by the way, what would this cost now on StockX to find a mint pair?

I don't even know. Like, I'm not even into the sneaker reselling. I just love making stuff, so I know what my shoes cost. But I don't know, maybe $5,000 to $15,000. Oh, way more. Yeah, see, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I think you're in the 50-plus range. Yeah, I'm not sure.

Okay, so... 40,000? I don't know. Someone look it up for me. And so, please. So there were gangs in your neighborhood, basically, and you couldn't wear certain colors at school. So talk to us about borrowing the shoe and then the OC club.

Yeah, so in middle school, we weren't allowed to wear blue, red, or yellow. They were all gang-affiliated colors, so that's when I started wearing orange. I had a... My middle school crew was... Orange pride. We wore orange, so I would, you know, find anything that was orange that I could wear. I shoppeared my data Supremes at the time orange.

And then after middle school and high school, you're able to wear more, just not so in a certain way. So I could still wear colors in high school. You started out with a sharpie. Yeah. I mean, I was sharpieing shoes in middle school. I just wanted something that was unique. What was the feeling you had in the reception you had when you wore those shoes to school and, and talk about, I think that's the feeling

that I have when I wear these shoes and people stop me on the street. Hey man, great kicks. Yeah. I think, I mean, that's where those came from. And I didn't even know how special those were. My cousin and my cousin had the first release because she was older. She was a college athlete. She did softball. And so I was able to wear those. And it was the same thing. It connected me with my friends.

It connected me with strangers, with the older kids. And it was just cool. It felt good. But you can only wear it once you can't do it again like once you wore it like the feeling wasn't the same unless it was a in a completely different atmosphere so that's when i started getting jordans early i would i worked in the mall and we had the hookup where we'd figure out how to get the jordans before they're released and i'd wear those shoes before they anyone had. And it was the same kind of feeling, like, where'd you get those? And then all my friends had the same shoes for the most part, the cool hype ones.

And we'd have to check in with each other to see what everyone was wearing that day, because you didn't want to wear the same thing that your friend had. So you change your closet around your friend had so you change your closet around at some point you change your room around tell us about the closet that you built and then um tell us about your your prom talks and what what it looked like and why you made a camouflage yeah so i mean a lot of people just think that shoes i only did shoes and i was again like you said doing things at a younger age that was repainting my bedroom moving my bedroom around making a rotating closet and um i had i

did screen printing embroidery i was sewing t-shirts in high school i grandmother bought me this home sewing machine that i still have when i was it's probably 2002 and i was sewing t-shirts and you know even my my prom tux i made full camouflage that came from the yeah video with usher and little john camouflage as in camouflage head the army the army camouflage yeah so you went to a surplus store? No, I actually found the fabric in Berkeley at this fabric store. I got really lucky. It was a really nice fabric.

And we put a nice satin stripe down the side, like a nice tux. So one of the things I think that's important in being successful is to just think differently, not inside the box, just to think wider. Tell us about the table you and your dad or your dad built on your grandma's old dolls and kind of what went into that. Did you just kind of walk in and say, hey, we're going to do something really cool? My dad is probably one of the most creative persons I know. And when he was building the restaurant, all the artwork was different and unique.

And one of the tables he built was a poker table with the cards laid out all the way around. It was on the wall, and then it had these little doll hands holding the cards. So it was really funny, but it's just uh yeah it was cool to see the way he did things even if i didn't think it was tasteful but it was cool that he did it and he did it himself he didn't he didn't wait for someone else and it wasn't perfect so when when i look at my shoe and i've got some sick travis scotts on uh kevin bow thank you for getting me these shoes by the, as a thank you gift.

I would be afraid to touch the shoe, and I think the Nike brand is the swoosh. People know where the swoosh is. Yeah. So tell us about the first time you took it off and you put it on the tongue. I mean, what's here without the stitching? It's white.

You got to cover it up, and then you put it on the tongue i mean what what's what's here without the stitching it's white you got to cover it up and then you put it on the tongue i believe for your first real mashup of a pair of nikes um i don't recall my first nike i mean besides painting a pair in all camouflage in high school, but cutting it up... I mean, even before I was even putting them back together, I just started cutting a bunch of stuff up. So, you know, what people would think that I've ruined a bunch of shoes, for me, that was my schooling.

That's how I learned how to do stuff. And I've done so many things to different shoe brands, and I've even merged shoe brands. Like, for me, I just see it as a canvas that I get to create. When you started collecting shoes, was it a hobby? And when did it become more than a hobby? And do you remember the first few shoes you bought and you started putting things in your closet?

I think high school, it was less, I mean, I don't know if it was a hobby yet. It was more just, I liked dressing up. I went to school so I could show my outfits off. I got best dressed in high school. So for me, it was like, what outfit did I have that day? And the difference between me and a lot of my friends, I wore everything from Adidas shell toes to Stan Smiths

to Rod Lavers to Timberlands to Sperrys to all types of shoes and outfits and then you know this the sneakers were more the hype stuff but I liked dressing in all different ways. When my son graduated high school he wanted a nice watch bottom of watch I read to high school I got I think a coach leather briefcase I, that's kind of weird to get in high school because I wasn't going to work or anything. A lot of people want a new car. Yeah.

Tell everyone what you wanted and what you got, which is very, I think, unusual. Yeah, no, a lot of my friends wanted trips to Cancun or Cabo or got a car, and I got, my grandmother bought me a home sewing machine. Called a PS-1013? Yeah, it's a pack setter. I mean, I don't know what exactly it's called, but a pace setter, excuse me.

It was just, yeah, I was just a kid that wanted to use a sewing machine. So I don't know the technical details, but that was a 13-stitch sewing machine. Can you explain to people what, is there a two-stitch? Is there a 50-stitch? What does that mean? I mean, 13-stitch just means there's different types of stitches. So zigzags, longer stitch, like there's so many different.

And this was years ago now, so like the new ones, the home sewing machines now have so many settings that I don't even comprehend, and we don't even use that anymore we have one stitch like when you produce something like a high level you just need single needle one stitch you can do it all of the double stitching on your shoe is done twice with the single needle i'm excited to go over your facility and just see what kind of needle can punch through all this stuff because this is thick. Yeah. I mean, it's a process.

Making shoes is a process. And we teach a lot of people and a lot of people do it. And then they're like, fuck this because it's very hard to do. And that's why a lot of brands don't even have sneakers or shoes in it because so many things can go wrong. Every size is different. Every last is different. The outsole costs a lot of money to open up if you have your own. And so there's a lot that goes into shoemaking. And that's why I was so attracted to it because it was hard to do and no one else was doing it. So that's a good point, I think, to share with people. A lot of people

think, all right, I'm just going to go through the motion and I'm going to just do what everybody else does. So how important is it in our success to do what no one else is doing and to plug through and push through the things that are difficult that people don't want to do? I mean, there's no right or wrong way to do it. Everyone has a different path and a different journey. But for me, I just, I started this whole business. It was never for anyone except myself. I wanted to wear a pair of shoes that no one else had. And then as soon as I did that, then attracted other people like, oh, I want that. I want that. And that's, you know, I think it's about being niche and doing something for yourself. And, and, and again, no, that's me,

right? There's experiences that people start businesses specifically off dollars and cents and formulas and data. And that works too. You know, there's no right or wrong way to do it other than just to do it you have a fantastic eye we were going to film the studio or film film this place i mean i've been to a lot of places this place is sick and i remember when i walked in uh the first time i was here for a kind event shout out to michael and sandy man for making the intro to michael um uh what are you doing in the music space just exploring creating singing every creating music yeah both creating finger singing uh i could do anything yeah you know it's just about you know practicing and doing it more and i'm just creating creating a sound that, you know, when I build something,

I want a full circle brand. I want the scent to be a certain way. I want it to feel a certain way. I want it to sound a certain way. I want it to feel like you can touch and feel it a certain way. And so music is just a way of me exploring my creative expression. How would you explain what kind of music it is? People ask me all the time. I don't even have a name for it yet except some new age johnny no it's just like some

new age lo-fi like johnny cash on like western type of i i can't even explain it it's just like chill chill yeah it's like you could you like you can play it in a hotel lobby or it can be in a fashion show. Okay, it's got some oomph to it. It's not like a hotel lobby to put you to sleep. Oh, no, no. Yeah, that's why I don't really know how to explain it. Let's talk about branding and the importance of branding in a consumer product setting

talk to us about your trip to new york 18 years old and where your name came from yeah i was living in charlotte north carolina i was 18 and we we drove to new york city just being on the east coast you could go to New York City, you'd go to Florida in one day. And when you lived in California, all you have is California, which was boring, you know, at times. So you're able, I drove to New York City.

I ran into Pharrell Williams at the Bape store. There was a Louis Vuitton party. Hype Williams was there. I mean, it was just, it was just, I mean, anyone that's been to New York for the first time, it's just like mind-blowing, especially at 18 with the dream of being an artist or a shoemaker, whatever I thought it was at the time.

And I remember just after that run-in, going up to the hotel room and starting to write down, like, what do I call this? What do I call call myself what do i call this thing that i'm building and i wrote down surgeon and so it originally became the shoe surgeon and um and it stuck and then i think a couple of years later moving back to northern california i had uh my tattoo artist design the logo, which is the skull with the scalpels as a... and a mask with blood on it. And so it's just like... Yeah, I had a brand. I had something that I could use

and to call myself and I don't think I thought too much of it at the time, but it was just like, yeah, you need branding, you need, I mean, look at the time, but it was just like, yeah, you need branding. You need, I mean, look at the best brands in the world, Apple, you know, or Nike, or you have brands and logos. People need to remember, people need to know what to call it. So you can't just be like, oh, this shoemaker made shoes. You know what I mean?

Like there needs to be more. So branding is important in any aspect. And I love marketing. I love branding. I love design. And it's all very important for a brand. You tried junior college. You didn't like it.

You moved to Charlotte to live with your grandmother. You did yard work for your uncle when you were there. Tell us about meeting a guy who made cleats for, I think, the Carolina Panthers. Yep. The Super Bowl. Yeah. So when I was living out there,

I was just going out to all the malls and meeting people and the kiosk and just doing as much as I could to meet people. And I think that's what's different about me, too, is I'll go up and talk to anyone. Like, I don't care. Like, if I want to learn something, I'll ask. And I've been cursed away many times,

but I remember walking through... Someone told you at some point to fuck off, I think. Yeah. Oh, yeah. One of the Shoe Repair guys told me to fuck off. And, you know, I may have been a little angry, but I was just confused. How can someone, you know, if I ask questions,

how can someone just say, fuck off like that? And so being in North Carolina, I was walking around the mall and I saw this kiosk and this guy had shirts and I think shoes that he was painting, and I went up to talk to him and he was like, he told me that he made, he painted the game cleats for the Carolina Panthers. They were in the Super Bowl 2004.

So it was just, you know, I didn't care about football. I didn't care about sports other than playing soccer. But for someone to tell you that they painted cleats for a Super Bowl, like that was a big deal for me. And to hear that and to be like, wow, that's amazing. Um, yeah, and then full circle, you know, I've made... many cleats for Super Bowls and won Super Bowls and got touchdowns and it's not just paint,

but it's just, you know, I think as a kid or a person in general, the more you see, the more you'll, you know, understand that you can go past that too. And that's why I teach too and speak on everything so you can show. And the faster you see something, the faster you can get through the next part. I think one of the motivators that makes people successful is being challenged. I know that's really hard to do.

And because it was super simple, know we could all do it tell us about your job in niche market and then someone challenged you on these side seven vans shoes and why that was so difficult to do um yeah when i was out in north carolina i would just in charlotte i would go to the different stores there was a skate shop called Black Sheep. Across the street was Niche Market, which I have tattooed on me. Um, and I went in there and I just said, hey, I want to make a custom pair of shoes.

And originally, he was like, what are you gonna put, rhinestones on Air Force Ones? And I said, give me something and I'll do it. So he gave me an inexpensive pair that he, you know, most likely wouldn't have sold. It was a size 7 all-white Vans Chukka. And he gave them to me. No one bought size 7, so I gave you that shoe.

Yeah, he probably gave me the shoe that he thought he wouldn't sell, right? So he gave it to me to do. And I took his logo. I laser engraved it on leather. I brought it to a shoe repair shop. And I was 18 at the time. And they sewed a piece on it. And then I hand sewed some stuff on leather i i brought it to a shoe repair shop and i was 18 at the time and they sewed a piece on it and then i hand sewed some stuff and then i brought it back and it was very progressive for the time and he was mind blown and since then i did another pair

for him and it's that this is just still my schooling this is me you know putting myself through school and that was like a project, right? Like a test to go to the next phase. I also think it's important to be successful, to have a plan and writing your goals down. Can you tell people about your experience at Borders Books and buying, I think the magazine was called Sneaker Freaker. Yeah.

And you wrote something down that you want to be the best at yeah i mean you know i was just consuming information whether it was nike talk on my dial up internet back in the day and just like finding as much information sneaker freaker was an amazing book sneaker freaker is from uh australia and uh there was so much information in there i just remember opening it up and in the back there's all of these different custom shoes right and none of them was how i wanted but it was still cool to see and so yeah then i just started writing everything down i used to work at a store in the mall called No Fear. And I just remember having my own notebook and writing down everything.

I want my own laser machine. I want my own embroidery machine. I want to be the biggest, you know, customizer in the world. And I wrote all this stuff down. And then, I mean, and now we're here. So at some point, you're selling some shoes. I think at No Fear fear you were making some

money as well you were the assistant manager and tell everyone how much you were making for per shoe and you're putting them up on the shelf i mean no so i was just bringing shoes in just to display them right like i'm just trying to get my stuff out there um and i would always talk about my stuff and so i wasn't supposed to do that, but I did it anyway. You know, I was supposed to be selling their product, which was $20 t-shirts. And, um, I just brought my stuff up to display. And, uh, I don't know. I think I was selling my work at the time and it was custom made to order. It wasn't like I made something and then I sold it. It was more like, this is what I can do. I can do something custom for you.

It was like a hundred bucks, 150 bucks. I used to give away so many pairs of shoes and, you know, it was hard. It wasn't even about the money at first, but it was like just to, you know, just to start. Well, let's talk about starting a business. And I think my kids, when they start growing business, they're going to come to me for a loan. And depending on what they do, and we do some research on this, my son just bought a watch, for example. As you know, the watch market is sort of like the shoe market. You're lucky to get one. Ass kissing, you got to get in line. And he has a friend who bought a lot of watch from

a particular brand and he got the shoe, the watch. It was a very expensive watch. I'm not going to say it on camera, but it was very expensive. And I did the research and I said, all right, he can flip this watch like that and make $30,000 in a day. As long as he has to hold the watch for a year, but you can sell it privately, you know the game. So talk to us about what you asked your parents, what you asked your dad for in that loan and what he made you do to get the loan. Yeah. My dad, my parents just sold a house right before the market crashed. And so they had some cash sitting in the bank and, you know, had this idea of doing this career, whatever it was at that time. And my dad said, how can, you know, what can I help you with? Like, what do you need? What do you want? Like, what do you need

to help you? And so I said, I'm not sure. And so we started just poking our heads around and we went to a shoe repair shop and Daryl Fazio was, he said, this is the machine you should get. Because I said, I want to sew on top of shoes and I want to, you know, he said, this is the machine you should get. Because I said, I want to sew on top of shoes and I want to, you know, make art on top of shoes. I want to make them look differently. And he said, this is what you should get. And it was $3,500. That's a lot of money. It's still a lot of money. That machine now is worth double that. Um, but yeah, my dad was like, well, you need to write a business plan. And I'm like, well, what the fuck's a business plan? Because, you know, I was a creative kid. Like I wasn't into numbers. I wasn't into, you know, business in that standpoint. I knew marketing. I knew how to get,

I knew how to get my stuff, the stuff out there, but I didn't understand the other side. And so I've maybe went on ask Jeeves at the time and like Google searched, you know, how to write a business plan. And so I did the best as I could and definitely didn't have a lot of the numbers in there, but all of the other stuff looked good. So I ended up, you know, doing the business plan, giving it to him. And, you know, he loaned me the money for this machine. Yeah, met an interesting guy along the way as well who did give you some financial advice. Can you talk about who that was?

Yeah, I think, you know, coming from a small town, I ran into Guy Fieri, who became a mentor in many ways, and it was just as a kid from a small town, seeing someone come out of the town with their talents on TV or whatever it was, was cool to see and interesting. So, uh, I ran into him on my 21st birthday

and I said, hey, can I send you this business plan? Because I told him the idea and I said, I want to share it with you. And so I emailed it to him, and he emailed me back right away and said it looks good, but the numbers side doesn't really look too good. So we stayed in contact a little bit, and yeah, it was just cool to be able to share something like that, especially at an age so young, like share that with someone uh and someone

give you feedback especially you know that he was you know the beginning of his career being on tv and really blowing up so you mentioned the word mentor i think mentors are very important talk about michael carnacci and then Gerald Fazio and the influence they had on your life. And talk to people on the importance of not just saying, will you mentor me, but earning the mentorship. Yeah, I mean, you have to do the work too to be a mentoree. You need to prove to them that you take it serious, right?

And so for Michael Anthony, he was a Western bootmaker, still is, he's up there, and, um... I never learned how to make boots from him, but I got to just see how passionate he was and how well he made boots and how he did it and how he used exotic skins. And even with him was a lot of more um uh spiritual journey stuff with him too just speaking on you know the mental health and stuff that we dealt with

and then daryl fazio was a shoe repair that that was that knew the business that pumped out shoes that got the work done but but it was repair-focused. So I got to piece apart different mentors in my life and gave them my time and gave them energy from what I provided, and they gave it as well. So, I mean, I believe every human should have a mentor, every human should have a coach in different facets too, right? Like, you know, you couldn't be, you know, Kobe had coaches. LeBron has coaches.

Everyone has coaches. So, you know, whether it's mental health or physical or training or business, you should always have coaches. And if, you know, if your therapist doesn I'm a therapist, then there's something wrong. A lot of people walk into a store, ask for something or walk into a job, they say no, and then that's it. I think preparing to persist is more important than any other step of preparation. I teach preparation. We're going to talk about preparation in a minute. Talk about how long it took you to actually get one of these apprenticeships, for lack of a better word, because you didn't just walk away and say, I'm done. Yeah.

You came back the next day. The first shoe repair guy I went to was the one that cursed me away. I just went in there asking questions like, what do these machines do? I want to learn more because I visited a shoe repair shop in North Carolina, and then he cursed me away. Same day, I went to another place, started talking to him. He was so busy. If you've been to a shoe repair shop, it's not very glamorous.

The guy was smoking a cigarette, putting glue on shoes, and he just had up to his head in shoes. It smells badly. Oh, it's just... I mean, yeah, most of them. So he was able to listen to me, but he didn't really, there was not much more there. So the same day I went to another shoe repair, that's when I met Daryl Fazio.

At the same time, I was like, hey, I want to learn from you. And he said, no. He said no right away. He said, you could be a liability. And I said, all right. But the next day I would, you know, go back and just keep watching because I was, I wanted to learn.

And then eventually he saw how serious I was just to want to learn. He said, all right, come check it out. And so then I started sewing and fixing purses and bags and started learning on my machine at home and just kept doing stuff. And that's how I learned to use the machine was by repairing stuff.

At some point you move back home. You start the business in your parents' garage. You're giving away free stuff. You're selling pair for $100 here and there. And then you got a job selling supplements. And things went very south very quickly. And I think it's very important to people listening and watching the show. We've all struggled.

I've had guests on the show who were sentenced to life sentences in jail and are now one of the best speakers in the world. Damon West, shout out to Damon. So I think telling your story and some of these struggles will be helpful for people to listen. So what can you tell us about what you were doing to make money? I mean, I was working at a gym, and I would also steal a lot of supplements to sell them

however I could. I would take just about anything that I could sell, and that was something that ate at me for the longest time and was very unhealthy, uh, mentally and physically, but mentally, and ended up, uh... Yeah, in a very negative place because of it. You went to jail? I mean, I've been to jail a few times

and ended up in the mental hospital a few times. So, at some point, you moved into a two bedroom house with four of your friends, you're partying, you're drinking, you're making some very cool shoes. Why don't you talk to us about your big break, Will.i.am, Justin, having to produce all these shoes and then sometimes your biggest break is great, but then there's also a big downside to that as well. Yeah, I mean, so I made another mentor through Facebook, Javier Laval, who was a shoe designer. You reached out to some random guy?

Yeah, I just reached out. I mean, that's what I did. I mean, I had some work to prove who I, like, that I was interested, you know? Like, I knew how to market myself in a way of like, oh, look, these shoes I did, or, you know, I'm interested in this. And so, I reached out to Javier, and we just started talking on Facebook, and then eventually, I don't know, a year goes by,

and he says, hey, are you able to make a pair of shoes for the VMAs for Will.i.am? And I said, sure. And so, I said, sure. And so, I mean, I didn't finish them until the night before, but, you know, that was the way I worked. And I went, came down and delivered them to him in L.A. And that's when, at the same time, I got introduced to Justin Bieber's stylist.

And then the same time, I got, I was making shoes for H. Lorenzo, the fashion boutique, and also, uh, Law & Order SVU emailed me to make some shoes for the show. The show was about you, I mean, basically. No, no. I mean, it was about the pair of shoes. About the shoes. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't about me.

It was about, you know, this player in the show, you know, had his own shoe line that was about to come out, and the manager had him on, and, you know, this player in the show, you know, had his own shoe line that was about to come out, and the manager had him on, and, you know, you gotta watch the show for the rest, but like, you know, the shoe played a main role on the evidence of what happened. So, um... one month, your first big body made 15K. Yeah.

Um, what'd you do with the money? I eat good. Oh, it was gone like that? Oh, yeah. Yeah, What'd you do with the money? I eat good. Oh, it was gone like that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, when, you know, for a big amount of money at a young age, like, you know, you just think, or for me, I just thought it was going to continue to come. And that was, you know, sad and depressing for sure. So Justin Bieber comes in, wants 20 pair of shoes for the tour.

You got to make them very, very quickly. Your mental health is not good. You're doing drugs. What prompted you to jump out through a window of the second story of a building? Hunt the concrete. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I made a lot of shoes for Justin Bieber. of the second story of a building. Uh... Hanta-Konfrit. Yeah. Uh...

Yeah, I mean, I made a lot of shoes for Justin Bieber, and then, um... he was going on so many tours, so they asked me to do 20 pairs, and, you know, I think it was in a week or something, and I said, yes, of course, because I thought anything was possible. And, uh, yeah, again, I wasn't being kind to myself.

I was not eating healthy. I was not exercising. I was not... And then I was on drugs. I was on everything from steroids to out drinking regularly to smoking weed to doing cocaine. Every day? No, not every day. You know, not every day.

It would be like, you know, the weekend I'd go out and party. But definitely, you know, and then when that stuff happened, you know, I was so, I was just caught up in stress. And I don't know if you know much about, you know, psychotic episodes or mania. I got caught in a manic episode. It was just my brain went on this loop and it was... It was... I didn't know what it was at the time,

and it was really scary. And it was in and out every... Like, it was about a week where it was continuing to happen. I'd wake up and be okay, and then a few hours later, it wouldn't. And I didn't week where it was continuing to happen. I'd wake up and be okay. And then a few hours later, it wouldn't. And I didn't know what it was and no one listened to me. I said, hey, I need help. And they're just like, oh, you're fine.

You'll be fine. And so, yeah, I was in my two-story house and I was going up and down the stairs, and eventually I... I barely remember it, but I jumped right through glass around my girlfriend at the time. Right through the glass, landed on the concrete, and then ended up going to the hospital, and that's when they diagnosed me bipolar.

Were you misdiagnosed as bipolar? I mean, yeah, I would say so. And then they put you on all kinds of drugs. Yeah. Which saved you. Yeah. And then it hurt you as well. Talk to us about kind of the flip there and how drugs can actually stifle creativity, which was your calling.

Yeah, I think, you know, Western medicine is beautiful for many things, and I think it's needed for a lot of things. I don't think it needs to be something forever, and there's also some things that are out there that, yeah, you may need them, but in my case or anyone's case, or not anyone, but for a lot of cases is you don't. It's like there's other ways to be healthy to to to break through where you don't need uh a western medicine so yeah that these um

this medicine helped me come down from the super high that i was at which i needed but then to be on them and and then to continue, which they once said forever, that's very depressing and you're very slow and you're lethargic and you feel like a zombie. So I wasn't able to be my creative self. And so now it's like about that, it's finding that balance. And you went back in again. Yeah, I ended up, you know, getting off the drugs completely,

then going out partying, drinking and, you know, doing cocaine when I was out. But, you know, ultimately, I was trying to find... myself through this journey. And was it having kids that kind of woke you up and said, hey, I gotta get clean and I need to clean up my ass? No, it was, uh... my girlfriend at the time helped me believe that I didn't need to be on these pills.

And helped me believe that I wasn't bipolar. And, um, because, you know, when you're young and you're... When you feel like that, you don't know who to who to believe and you know you believe a doctor because they went to school for so long and my mom didn't know any better she believed the doctor too and so the doctor said you had to be on these pills for the rest of your life and uh that's hard to hear and um so i and i started getting healthy. And, you know, my mentor, Javier Laval and Michael Anthony, they all played an important role to help me through that time as well,

mentally and how to talk to myself. And I also started getting lost in self-help on YouTube at the time and, you know, listening to Alan Watts, to Jim Carrey, to all types of the power of the now. Really diving in, and that was me doing my own research and learning more and more about stuff. You know, the secret, the notebook, like all of these things that I just dove into and just learned more and more.

And then just being healthy. I started walking, I started playing soccer, I started going to whole foods and eating completely healthier and my whole and then i started chinese herbs instead of the the pills and then i it just my whole life started to shift during that time i do a lot of paid coaching and i have this guy in grand rapids michigan who very impressive guy uh pediatric dentist has a good business was making 500k a year dma loves my show and and basically wanted me to help him plan his future so he was going to have a partner to open up his new business and we went through all the numbers and the math i

said you don't need a partner i think a lot of people want a partner for the, um, the psychological support of not being on their own. You know, they're kind of fearful. I said, you know, you don't need a partner. Some people do, some don't. You had a partner that didn't work out. And now you have a partner who's really helped you grow your business. Like you said, seven years ago, tell us about Dallas and what you've done further. Yeah, I mean, I was building so much by myself and slowly building the team and having a small team and then being pulled in so many directions, flying to New York to do events, like, you know, doing classes already.

So I, and I already had my first kid come. So my son Emil was born. So, you know, I knew the business was bigger than myself. And so eventually I had a client, Dallas, who was ordering some shoes for me and I got to see him build other businesses. And one of the things that stuck out most for me was just, one of his businesses, one of the best place to work out in Orange County. And that's for me is the biggest thing is making sure staff feels like family and they feel good to be working, right? And then, yeah, he helped out for a long time

before we decided to go into business together. Social media has been a huge part of your success. You said you couldn't be this successful without Instagram and PayPal. Talk to us about why. I mean, it was just the time. It was the right time and the right moment i mean i would be successful still in some other way but like we don't know that um social media was happening instagram was happening it was a way for me to physically get my art in the world and people

could actually see it and then they can buy it or even just see it right and built is it's you know it's free marketing in the sense we've talked about some of the things that make people successful being a mentor being persistent being creative being different what are three other elements of success that it would take to build a successful business like yours? I mean, like mine? Delusion. You need to be delusional for sure. And I would say delusion. Like if most everything I have was never,

like no one could ever imagine that. So, and you can't tell anyone either. You just got to do it and then show it and do it again and again and again so i would say being delusional i would say being consistent because that's one of the that's the hardest thing so many people come and like tell me they have an idea and i'm so sick of hearing people with ideas because if you can't execute an idea it's not worth nothing right and then if you execute the idea, it has to be consistent. That's the hardest thing.

So delusional, consistency, and yeah, never saying no. I guess that's kind of delusional in a way. You've said no to a lot of clients that come to you for shoes. Yeah. You just said, well, never say no, but you've said no to a lot of clients who come to you for shoes. Yeah. You just said, well, never say no, but you've said no. Why do you say no to people who come to you and say, no, not going to do that? What I mean by never saying no is more so not taking no for an answer for me. Not taking no for an answer for me, right?

So like being delusional in the sense of like, I never took no for an answer from me right so like being delusional in the sense of like i never took no for an answer so yeah for and then separately i think not or saying no to clients is like we don't need to work with everyone i don't want to work with uh people that i don't want to work with and and at this stage of my life i get to say no i don't want to work with everyone it's not about you know the masses it's about know, life's too short. I want to work with good people and I only want to, you know, grow and work with people that respect me, my team and the business. And yeah, it's less about just the money and it's more about building something bigger. Let's talk about SGN Academy. So you've referred a little bit to that, but tell everyone what it is and what your mission there is. Yeah. SRGN Academy is our

surgeon academy where we teach everything from introductory shoe workshops, how to customize, slightly customize a shoe to then fully deconstruct a shoe and rebuild it, which is a four-day class. And it's just a way to get people to be creative and get into shoes. You know, people take the class and build other businesses out of it that have nothing to do with building a shoe. And then I've also taught, you know, so many students that now build shoes and sell shoes,

and then some that build their own classes and now have classes. And it's just a way for me to give to catapult someone to keep going to doing something we walk around this place which is incredible and everyone's happy here and i think one of the things is um you're in a really nice setting the The office is beautiful, well-designed. It's got everything here that people would love to work. Tell us about the league

and why you built a basketball court here, which, by the way, apparently is the place to be. You get all kinds of interesting people, former players, you know, rappers like Simba. I saw him posting the other day. I'm like, hey, Simba, I'm going to go, you know, interview the shoe surgeon saw him posting the other day i'm gonna go you know interview the shoe surgeon it's like it's like man that's dope i just always wanted a place where you could you know work and play and you know with the work that

i do is play but also you know whether it's a basketball or or soccer it's a way you can just go uh and sport was big for me growing up i played basketball till high school and then i stuck with soccer more and i was very competitive in soccer i ran track and so it was important for me and so like to have and then to go through my mental health journey and how important it is to be active, how important that is for your mental health. So I wanted to create a place where you can, you know... This used to be the whole facility. So if you were at lunch every day,

we would used to play five-on-five soccer against the whole staff. And that was one of the funnest times. I mean, people got hurt, which you gotta be careful, but, like, it of the funnest times i mean people got hurt which you gotta be careful but like it was the funnest time because you can go just not think about work or anything other than let's just go have fun and win let's talk about how much these shoes cost and first i want to go to the all-time record for a shoe uh south Beach auctioned off a Jordan 13 that I wore, I think in the 2000 and actually it was the 1998 NBA Finals

against the Utah Jazz. $2.2 million for that pair of shoe. The most expensive pair of shoe you ever made was for PJ Tucker, $250,000. What does a shoe cost for people that want to go on your website and yeah the shoes are anywhere from 5 000 to 15 000 and uh it's just it's not enough right like there's no amount of money that someone can give me that is worth what i've been able to create my entire life and um it's wearable art it's like collecting art right like it's um you know i did the quarter

million dollar shoe and now we're working on a four million dollar shoe and can you talk about that shoe i mean it's just it's who it's for or i i'm gonna build it and then it's gonna sell it's not for anyone i just that's what i do i build going to build it and then it's going to sell. It's not for anyone. That's what I do. I build a concept and then he figures out how to sell it. What goes into a $4 million show? I mean, there'll be some American alligator and diamonds and some controls that you can control from your phone. All right.

We're getting towards the end of the show and I want to talk about something that's very important to me. People ask me, what is the highlight of your career? And it's not making money. It's giving back. So talk to us about what you're doing to give back and how important it is for us all

to focus on our mental health, which has long been neglected for way too long. Yeah, no, I know the simple give back was it for me was always you know if i had excess of stuff giving it away i mean even to this day i get so many things that now i bring it to staff and give it because you know you can only have so much stuff and i've come to to this realization in the last four years that, like, really having no attachments to anything, I can figure it out and move forward through it

no matter what happens. But, you know, I used to, all of the uppers that we used to take apart, I would put other soles on them and we would go around Skid Row and all the way around and give shoes away to people that needed the shoes. And now it's even just about the classes and the workshop and giving that and, you know, doing things in a way

that you're helping people. And so when you come take a class, it's less about just the shoemaking and also my story and all of the things that I overcame. And a lot of every human, you know, deals with mental health. It's not like it's new. It's just a better, how do you talk on it?

How do you get through with it, right? And I'm grateful that I'm vulnerable and I'm able to be able to share it because it doesn't define who I am. And I've been, I've had a very, uh, wild, shitty, crazy... past that most came from myself and I didn't know that. And, uh, to get through the other side and to keep moving forward is important.

So to be able to share that and to share the story and the journey and also how I look at it now, uh, it helps, you know helps not only myself, but it helps other people get through. I always end my show with a game called fill in the blank the excellence. You ready to play? Fill in the blank of excellence. Two excellence. Fill in the blank two excellence. The biggest lesson I've learned in my life is? Never give up. My number one professional goal is? Enjoy life because that's professional too. My number one professional goal is enjoy life because that's professional too my number one personal goal is the cover of men's house right now the best moment of my career is

showing my kids all of this my biggest regret is that's a tough one i don't believe in regrets being kinder to myself sooner i wouldn't know what I don't know now, but if you could, go back and... Learning this faster, but it's like I had to learn it at the pace that I learned it. My biggest fear is... Yeah, it's changed over the years. What is it now?

The craziest thing that's happened in my career is... Jumping out a window once it sticks out for me. If you could go back in time and give your 21-year-old self one piece of advice, what would it be? It would just say, I love you. Give yourself that love that most of us don't give ourselves. We're so hard on ourselves and no one teaches us that. And if you're softer with yourself, even at an earlier age, like, for me,

I went through very hard mental times with what then happened with drugs and everything else, but like, if I would've been kinder to myself, I mean, even recently, it's like, it's so easy to get caught up in the details and what went wrong instead of what went right. So, being kind to yourself. If you could be one person in the world, who would it be? Meet one person in the world?

Meet one person in the world. Alive or dead? Let's go with both. Abraham Lincoln? Uh... Alive? Who would I meet? who i meet i have no idea i have no clue who i'd want to meet right now what's the one question you wish i'd asked you but didn't ask you what drives you what drives you i think it's a mix of things.

The older I get and the more things in my children, it's a mix between me proving myself still and my art and showing myself that I can do anything and showing my children that I can do anything as well. Does money drive you? When we met a few weeks ago, you told me some numbers. We're not going to share them on camera right now. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, what I've learned,

and money was the hardest thing for me. I mean, it's still not easy, but it's energy at the end of the day. You know, a friend of mine years ago said, just look at it like energy exchange, right? Like I'm building a shoe. It takes me my energy and everything. And a person may work a job or do whatever, but they get this money that they had to, you know,

exchange their energy for and it's able to exchange it. So yeah, to say money doesn't drive me at all, that would be false. But I don't look at it like dollars and cents and i don't do it for you know just the money it's for fulfilling something and and showing my art to the world i've enjoyed the interview i've enjoyed getting to know you i loved meeting you weeks ago and as i said i've been a fan for years i had the opportunity to come and meet you in person was super super pumped about it.

You're an amazing guy. You have a great story. Congrats on all your success. I think it's incredible. So looking forward to more in the future. It was good to meet you and thanks for coming by and having me on the show. I'm glad we got to do it in my studio.