In The Dark - S2 E16: A Hearing

Episode Date: December 16, 2019

After nearly 23 years locked up, Curtis Flowers has a chance to get out on bail -- if his lawyers can convince the judge to rule in his favor.  Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

Okay. We are back in Winona, Mississippi. We haven't been here in a while. This has been a while. I'm Madeline Barron, and this is a special update episode of In the Dark. I had come to Winona with our producer Natalie Jablonski to cover a hearing in Curtis Flowers' case. It was the first hearing since the conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court. And it was the first time that Curtis Flowers would be appearing in open court since he was sentenced to death in 2010. The hearing was to decide whether Curtis would get out on bail,

while he waited to see whether the prosecutor, Doug Evans, would try the case again. while he waited to see whether the prosecutor, Doug Evans, would try the case again. We're here for either the latest procedural development in a 20-something-year-old case, or we're here for Curtis getting out of jail. It could be the biggest thing that's happened to Curtis in a very long time, or another disappointment. All right, should we go in, too? I think it might be time. On Monday morning, Natalie and I showed up early at the courthouse in Winona.

This way? This way. It can be extremely hard to get bail in a capital case, partly because judges often worry that if a defendant is facing death, they might not show up for court if they're let out. There are also plenty of cases, especially ones that involve the most violent crimes, in which judges simply don't think it's safe for the community to have a defendant let out. And so, according to the people we spoke with, Curtis getting bail would be a long shot. according to the people we spoke with, Curtis getting bail would be a long shot. And this was especially true because the judge who'd be ruling on Curtis's motion is Judge Joey Loper, the same judge who presided over the past two Flowers trials. The judge who ordered black juror James Bibbs, the lone holdout against guilt in Curtis's fifth trial, arrested and let out of the courtroom

in handcuffs. And so the idea that Judge Loper would grant bail to Curtis seemed unlikely. The courtroom quickly started to fill with people. It recognized a lot of them from Winona or surrounding towns. People chose their seats based on which side they supported, the prosecution or Curtis towns. People chose their seats based on which side they supported, the prosecution or Curtis Flowers. So far, I will say it is 100% split by race. There's not a single white person on Curtis's side other than the lawyers of his who are white. There's not a single black person on the side of the state. It's all white. Curtis's family walked in. His father, two sisters, his daughter, cousins.

They took seats on the defense side. On the opposite side of the courtroom, the family members of some of the people who were killed at Tardy Furniture filed in. So Rob McDuff has arrived, Curtis's lawyer. Curtis's lead attorney, Rob McDuff, walked in. He was dressed neatly in a dark suit, white shirt, and light blue tie. Curtis's newest lawyer, Henderson Hill, was there too, along with many other lawyers who've worked on Curtis's case over the years.

Reporters sat up in the jury box, which meant that I was sitting in the same seat that a juror had sat in nine years earlier in the sixth trial, when the jury unanimously voted to convict Curtis and sentence him to death. Since I started reporting this story, I've never seen another reporter in Winona. But that day in the courtroom, joining us in the jury box, were 15 members of the media, reporters, producers, sound guys. And then Curtis walked in, his bald head shown under the harsh overhead lights of the courtroom. He looked like a younger version of his father. The resemblance is that close. He was wearing a dark suit, no handcuffs. It was the first time I'd seen him in person. Finally, after nearly 23 years, Curtis was closer than he'd ever been

to being a free man. He smiled slightly as he took his seat next to his lawyers. There were at least a hundred people in the courtroom. The one person who wasn't there was the man who'd spent the past 20-some years prosecuting Curtis. The man who had over and over again said that Curtis was guilty and deserved to be executed. The man whose misconduct in the last trial was the reason Curtis was sitting here, his conviction overturned, with a chance to get out for the first time. District Attorney Doug Evans. Instead, Evans had sent an assistant prosecutor from his office, a man named William Adam Hopper. All rise.

Search report is now in session with the Honorable Judge Joseph H. Loper. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Be seated, please, court will come to order. The court has pending a motion for bail that's been set in this case, and Mr. McAduff, you filed the motion, so are you ready to proceed? I'm here. And is the state of Mississippi ready to proceed? Thank you, Your Honor. And is the State of Mississippi ready to proceed as well? Yes, Your Honor.

And Mr. McDuff, is your motion then? So you may proceed. Thank you, Your Honor, and good morning. I'm Rob McDuff with the Mississippi Center for Justice in Jackson, along with my co-counsel Henderson Hill of Charlotte, North Carolina, appearing on behalf of Curtis Flowers. As Rob McDuff started speaking at the podium, Judge Loper leaned forward in his chair and stared intently at him, so intently that I couldn't tell whether it was because Judge Loper

was buying what McDuff was saying or was furious with him. This case is unprecedented in the history of the American legal system. Despite six trials, the prosecution has been unable to obtain a lawful conviction. Two of those trials ended with juries who could not agree and resulted in mistrials. The other four were reversed, all for prosecutorial misconduct. In the meantime, Curtis Flowers has spent 23 years in prison without a lawful conviction to justify his incarceration. At the time he was arrested at the age of 26 he had no prison he had no criminal record and he has no criminal record today. Over his

23 years in prison since he was arrested he's had an exemplary prison record. Former deputy commissioner for the Mississippi Department of Corrections reviewed his file and said, it is one of the best prison records I have ever seen. As time goes by, more and more evidence surfaces that points to his innocence. And all of this makes this case different from the legions of capital murder cases in which bail is denied. As a result of these unprecedented facts, bail is required under the law.

McDuff's argument boiled down to two things. First, McDuff cited an obscure and super-specific Mississippi law that says that any defendant in a capital case who's had two trials ending in hung juries is entitled to bail. Curtis has had that. His fourth and fifth trials both ended in mistrials. And the second thing is that Mississippi's Constitution requires in capital cases that bail be granted if reasonable doubt can be entertained. And so McDuff spent a lot of his time talking about the evidence in the case and how weak he thought it was. And I'm going to play a lot of that argument right now.

Now, we believe the evidence points toward innocence. We believe a reasonable doubt has been established and certainly will be established at any seventh trial if there is one. But that's not the standard. The standard is, can a reasonable doubt be entertained? And clearly it can. More so now than ever before in the 23-year history of this case. We have provided 29 exhibits that go to this issue. I'll assure you, I've read everything you found. I know you have, Your Honor.

They go to this issue and they go to Curtis Flowers' exemplary prison record. Let's start, if we can, with Odell Hallman. Odell Hallman was the state's star witness. He testified in the last four trials that Curtis Flowers admitted to him in jail that he committed these murders. But now that he is in prison serving life without parole, there are no more favors that can be done for him by the district attorney's office. And now he has finally admitted to the truth in a recording, in an interview with reporters from American Public Media's podcast, In the Dark. One moment, Char. This is actually an excerpt from In the Dark being played in the courtroom. That was a lot. I don't know nothing about this shit.

It was all make-believe. Everything was all make-believe on my part. And with that, the DA Doug Evans' star witness had reversed himself on a contraband cell phone from inside Parchman Prison. All of it was just a fantasy. All of it was just a fantasy. I only live with just a fantasy. That's all. A bunch of fantasies, a bunch of lies.

And this admission from Odell Hallman that this was all a bunch of fantasies, a bunch of lies, L. Hallman, that this was all a bunch of fantasies, a bunch of lies, just confirms the whole impl prison guards who is quiet, who is cooperative, who is not aggressive, who is not violent. And the notion that Curtis Flowers would be hanging around with the likes of Odell Hallman and confessing to murders of which he has been accused is preposterous. It has always been preposterous, and now Odell Hallman has confirmed it was all a lie. I used them SOBs just like they used me.

That's the other thing Odell Hallman said in this recording. In Curtis's previous four trials, Odell Hallman had always testified that he got nothing in exchange for his statements. But our reporting found that Odell had received favorable treatment. Treatment that allowed him to get out on bail, to be in the community, and to go on to kill three people. When you sentenced him, you said, it's hard for the court to understand the hatred in someone's heart and the darkness and evil in someone's soul that would cause you to do this. This really was a deal with the devil that the district attorney's office made, and it is the supreme irony that the district attorney agreed to bail in that case with that man's record, but is here opposing the bail application of Curtis Flowers.

the bail application of Curtis Flowers. As McDuff spoke, I looked out over the audience. It looked like everyone was listening closely, transfixed by what was happening, and tense with the possibility that Curtis, this man who was either innocent, according to many people in the audience, or a murderer, according to the rest, could go free. The state's second most important witness was Clemmie Fleming, who admitted to these same reporters on tape that she didn't tell the truth when she testified at trial after trial that she saw Curtis Flowers near Tardy Furniture Store on the day of the murders. And then there was Ed

McChristian. Ed McChristian was another witness for the prosecution. He admitted to these same reporters on audio tape that he testified that he saw Curtis Flowers on the morning of the murders because the officers, quote, had it down pat for me, end quote. But in truth, he didn't remember what day it was he saw Curtis Flowers on the street. As McDuff spoke, the prosecutor took notes on the legal pad. And then McDuff started talking about alternate suspects, people he said were much more likely to have committed the murders than Curtis Flowers. The district attorney has maintained from the beginning of this case,

quote, there is no evidence that I am aware of that points a finger at anyone else, end quote. In 2016, you asked Mr. Evans whether, quote, the state possesses any information on any other suspects, end quote, and he said, no, sir. John Johnson, the state's investigator, had previously testified, I'm not familiar with another suspect. But reporters from American public media determined that. They had investigated another individual at length named Willie James Hemphill. He has an extensive criminal history, including daytime robberies, putting a gun to a woman's head in a parking lot, and extreme violence, including the beating of a girlfriend with a lead pipe, and pulling out a phone line when her daughter,

her 12-year-old daughter, tried to call the police and then told the 12-year-old daughter that he was going to spread lighter fluid in the house and burn the house up. He wore the type of shoes that purportedly left a bloody footprint at the crime scene, Fela Grant Hill shoes, and was apparently told by investigators that people had seen him near tardy furniture on the morning of the murders. Authorities launched an extensive manhunt for him at the time and arrested him so they could question him about the murders.

He was kept in jail for 11 days. However, they apparently released him at that point after he gave them what he later called, quote, an airtight alibi, end quote, that authorities never checked out and that now appears to be completely fictitious. As discovered by those reporters when they interviewed the woman he said he went to a mall in Memphis with that day, as well as another girlfriend of his. And it turns out that the route from Tardy Furniture to Hemp Hill's home, where he was living at the time on Branch Street,

passes by 106 Knox Street, where a.380 pistol was later found by Jeffrey Armstrong, who said he later told police about it, and that was confirmed by an officer who recalls Armstrong's statement and who understood the pistol was turned over to authorities, although no one knows its whereabouts now. I looked over at Curtis's father. He was staring straight ahead with a look on his face that I had never seen before. The look of a man who knows that his son's future will depend on what happens in this courtroom in the next few minutes. The evidence here is stronger for the defense than it has been in 23 years. And there has already been a significant showing that if we have a seventh trial, Curtis Flowers will be found not guilty. Curtis seemed remarkably calm given the

circumstances. He alternated between looking at Judge Loper and glancing down at a binder of defense materials. He looked like a student in a classroom who was paying close attention to everything the teacher said. He has always proclaimed his innocence and at the age of 49, he's not somebody who wants to spend his life on the run. His father is 77. As the affidavits from the prison guards indicate from watching the family visiting him in prison, he has a very close family, a very supportive family. He knows that evidence has come out since the last trial demonstrating his innocence. He doesn't want to go back to prison for jumping bail. He's not a 22-year-old person who is facing an airtight case against him and is desperate and would go on the run. He is a person with a significant chance of acquittal who wants to stay and abide by the court's rules and see this case to its

finish. And it was at this moment that McDuff came the closest you can get to a mic drop at a bail hearing. And I would like to suggest to the court that the appropriate amount of bail would be no greater than the bail amount the prosecution agreed to for Odell Holman, who is a much greater flight risk and a much greater danger than Curtis Flowers. And that amount was $25,000. The audience murmured. It was clear that what was happening here, this unraveling of the prosecution's actions in this case, how direct it was, how backed up by evidence, by actual recordings of the state's witnesses, was unlike anything that had happened in the case before.

And it was happening not at the Supreme Court in Washington, D.C., or at the state capitol, but right here in Winona, before the people who lived here and who've lived with this case and these trials for almost as long as they can remember. The only other thing I want to say is that this is a case that obviously engenders strong feelings. I can't imagine, I don't think many of us can imagine the horror and the pain of losing loved ones in the sort of violent event that occurred here. And I imagine that members of the families of those people who died have believed and many still believe that Curtis Flowers is guilty. But the existence of that tragedy does not mean that Curtis Flowers is guilty. and his family, his friends, his growing number of supporters, as more and more evidence comes out,

and his lawyers believe just as firmly, just as fervently, that he is innocent. And as time goes by, more and more evidence comes out to support that belief. to support that belief. But in the midst of these diametrically opposed feelings, which are held very strongly, the law is clear. There have been two mistrials and the only two trials in which prosecutorial misconduct

was not adjudged, the only two trials in which there was an adjudication, in which there was not an adjudication, that they were unfair. In those two trials, each resulted in a mistrial and the statute requires bail. A reasonable doubt can at the very least be entertained and therefore bail is required under the Constitution. Curtis Flowers has no prior record of criminal conduct and an exemplary prison record. He is not a flight risk and he is not a danger. So under the law and under the

unique circumstances of this evolving situation Curtis Flowers is entitled to be released on bail pending further proceedings and during the time it takes to reach a final resolution of this long and difficult and tragic case. Thank you. Mr. Harper, you may proceed. William Hopper, Assistant District Attorney for the state. William Adam Hopper was much younger than Curtis's lawyer. He looked like a man who was prepared for trial, wearing a neatly pressed suit, armed with what appeared to be tidy notes laid out before him.

He got started not by making a big sweeping claim, but by focusing on his interpretation of the state law that McDuff had mentioned. As for the statutory argument, Your Honor, a plain reading of the statute says, any person having twice been tried on an indictment, charging capital offense, wherein each trial resulted in a failure of the jury to agree upon his guilty innocence, shall be entitled to bail. It doesn't say reversal. It says each trial. In this case, I believe this statute doesn't apply, Your Honor. And then Hopper turned to the evidence. Your Honor, as we all know, cases are tried in the court of law not in the media it is true that these individuals that he mentioned have given statements to this podcast

these people doing the podcast however I would show there is more proof than just these people's statements that Curtis Flowers is guilty of the murders that he's been charged with. He was seen at Doyle Simpson's car on the morning of the murders. Doyle Simpson's gun was taken from that car, and a bullet that was pulled from the crime scene matched to that gun. There were gunshot residue elements found on Mr. Flowers' hands. There was a shoe print found that was matched to a Fela Grant Hill shoe. An empty shoe box was found in Mr. Flowers' residence

that matched the size of the state's expert as 10 1⁄2. Those shoes were not found. Apparently, I believe the statement was they were thrown out, which these were very expensive tennis shoes. I can the statement was they were thrown out, which these were very expensive tennis shoes. I can't envision anybody just throwing them out because they didn't fit. There was money found in the headboard of his bed. I think most telling as far as these other, the defense wants to call them suspects, Willie James Hemp Hill and Doyle Simpson, was those two individuals had no motive to commit murder. As the hearing unfolded, I kept looking over to Judge Loper, searching for a sign, a frown, a smile, anything that would help give me a sense of what he was feeling about what he was hearing.

And then came this moment when Judge Loper interrupted the prosecutor. Hopper was talking about those alternate suspects and yet still maintaining that they had never actually been suspects in the first place. And you heard the testimony in the prior trials from John Johnson and I believe others that Mr. Flowers was the only suspect. In your honor? Well, I've heard that, but yet after the fact, now I'm hearing that somebody else was picked up in hell for for a number of days that was in in fact a suspect so how does the state reconcile that your honor all i can say is that his he gave an alibi i don't know what was done on it but there's no other evidence to point that he had anything to do with it other than maybe he had a pair of shoes and maybe someone saw him around the store that day, which I believe he did not. That's the same type of evidence the state has against Mr. Flowers, isn't it?

Well, no, Your Honor. Judge Loper had just said that there was no more evidence against Curtis Flowers than there was against Willie James Hemphill, a man who had never been charged for the murders. It was an incredible moment, because Judge Loper is the judge who'll preside over a seventh trial if that happens. And here he was, slamming the state's case. So it's the state's argument that no reasonable doubt can be entertained? It is, Your Honor. That's our position today.

And as such, we would ask that bond be denied. Curtis's lawyer had spoken for half an hour. Hopper was done after just seven minutes. Judge Loper gave McDuff a few minutes to respond to the state's argument. He focused on the evidence. There was one grain of gunshot residue found on Curtis Flowers, and even the prosecution's witnesses

testified that that doesn't mean anything. He could have picked it up in a police car, could have picked it up at the police station. There was an empty shoebox for a ten and a half. Curtis Flowers' girlfriend testified they belonged to her son. And as I mentioned, expert evidence at the next trial, if there is one, is going to debunk this whole notion that these prints were a ten and a half. The money that was found at the house where Curtis Lauer lived with his girlfriend did not match the amount of money that was found at the house where Curtis Flowers lived with his girlfriend did not

match the amount of money that was stolen. The gunshot testing to claim that this particular gun shot this bullet where the expert test value was 100% sure it was. We've also submitted affidavits in the post-conviction petition that suggests the expert had no basis for saying that. But even if it was the same gun, it points much more toward Doyle Simpson than it does toward Curtis Flowers. McDuff knocked down the prosecution's arguments one by one, and then he wrapped up. And I guess the final point is, as you alluded to with your question, we don't have to prove he was innocent today. That's not the question, although I think we could if we had a trial. We don't have to establish a reasonable doubt.

We just have to establish that a reasonable doubt can be entertained. And under that scenario, the court is required to grant bail. Thank you. And then? The court will be in recess, and I'll come back with a court decision. I'm not going to say a time, but as quick as possible. Hi, this is David Remnick. I'm proud to share the news that three films from the New Yorker documentary series

have been shortlisted for the Academy Awards. And they are Incident, Seat 31, Zoe Zephyr, and Eternal Father. And they all immerse you in the finest cinematic journalism, exploring themes of justice, identity, and the bonds that shape us. These extraordinary films, which were created by established filmmakers as well as emerging artists, will inform, challenge, and move you. I encourage you to watch them along with our full slate of documentary and narrative films at newyorker.com slash video. So we are in recess right now.

We're waiting for the judge to rule. So everybody is up and kind of milling about, thinking about what's going to happen, talking about what might happen. Natalie and I left the jury box and headed over to the white side of the courtroom to talk to family members of the victims. Hello. Yes. How are you doing?

I'm fine. This is Frank Ballard. His mother-in-law was Bertha Tardy, one of the people killed at the store. What do you think of what just happened? What I think was happening? Yes. I think the judge has to decide what happens.

What do you think should happen? Bless your heart. Thank y'all. I leaned over to talk to a white woman who'd been sitting a few seats away from Frank Ballard. Hi. I'm just curious what you make of what happened. Make sure that it's clear. You don't want to talk? Okay. Y'all need to just go.

I'm sorry? Y'all battle has just started. Y'all need to just go. We need to go? Yeah. Why? Why? We don't want to talk to you. Sorry, I didn't hear you. We don't want to talk to you. Sorry to hear.

We don't want to talk to y'all. You don't? Okay. That's fine. Then we headed over to the defense side. Seems like the mood on the defense side is pretty positive. We spotted Curtis' youngest sister, Sherita. How are you feeling? I feel great.

I think in this case, God's going to prevail. We can clearly see all the evidence they has against Curtis. It's very unfair. I mean, what do you get? I feel, I know in my heart that Curtis is innocent. And by being here today after 23 years, I feel like justice will prevail. You look like you might have been crying earlier. I have. Tears of joy. No matter what, I know God. I know justice is going to prevail today. We waited. We never lost faith. It's been a long, hard road, but I know God is going to prevail today.

What do you make of the fact that the district attorney, Doug Evans, isn't here? Oh, quote, unquote. That tells it all right there. He fought for 22 years. Why is he not here today? To defend his theory that Curtis was guilty. So my question is to the DA, if he reads this, where he is, what answer did they give why he wasn't here today?

Well, I prayed for the DA. I prayed for the family. I prayed for my family as well. Ladies and gentlemen of the media, if you will resume your seats, please. Curtis walked back into the courtroom. He had a bounce in his step, and he was rubbing his hands together and smiling. The audience on the defense side greeted him like a prizefighter who just won a match. Someone shouted, all right. Meanwhile, on the other side of the courtroom,

the faces of some of the family members of the victims stiffened as they looked on in apparent disbelief. Remain seated. Court is now back in session. Court, come back to order. Before I begin, I just want to advise everybody that's in the courtroom, you're all guests of this court. I do not want to hear any comments or sighs or anything else from anyone concerning the court's ruling. Judge Loper started off by talking about the first part of Rob McDuff's argument, that Mississippi law entitles Curtis Flowers to bail since he has had two mistrials.

I doubt the drafters of the statute could have envisioned a factual scenario that exists in this case. But Judge Loper said the statute was clear. Curtis had had two mistrials, and therefore... Consequently, it is the finding of this court that Mr. Flowers is entitled to bail pursuant to Mississippi Code annotated section 99.535. As Judge Loper spoke, and what he'd just said sunk in,

that he'd just granted Curtis Flowers bail, McDuff appeared to reach out to touch Curtis's arm, and Curtis smiled slightly. And then Loper turned to the actual evidence in the case against Curtis Flowers. He noted that since Curtis's last trial, at least three witnesses, Clemmie Fleming, Edna Christian, and Odell Hallman, have recanted or drastically changed their previous testimony. This court will also note that Odell Hallman have recanted or drastically changed their previous testimony. This court will also note that Odell Hallman's testimony was the only direct testimony against Mr. Flowers. Absent his testimony, the case is wholly a circumstantial evidence case,

which places the higher burden on the prosecution of having to prove Mr. Flowers guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and to the exclusion of every reasonable hypothesis consistent with innocence. That is the highest burden of proof that has required any type case in the state of Mississippi. The court has been also made aware of possible alternative suspects as well as possible exculpatory evidence that has not been considered at previous trials that were conducted. In the next trial should one occur the state of Mississippi is faced with the prospect of having to present a far weaker case to the jury than it's had in the past while having to meet a higher burden of proof than it has ever had to meet. Considering all

these factors the court is the opinion that in the least reasonable doubt as to Mr. Flowers' guilt can be entertained. Judge Loper could have just said, look, technically the law requires me to give bail in a case like this. But Judge Loper went much further than that. He was attacking the evidence in the state's case. It was remarkable to witness this critique coming from the man who presided over the previous two trials and who had seemed, over the years, to side with the prosecution more often than not. Now Judge Loper seemed to be seeing the Flowers case in a completely different way. The state has failed to convince this court that the proof of Mr. Flowers' guilt is evident or the presumption great so as to deny bail.

Consequently, this court also is of the opinion that Mr. Flowers is entitled to bail pursuant to Article III, Section 29.1a of the Mississippi Constitution. Judge Loper set Curtis' bail at $250,000, and he set the terms of Curtis' release, that Curtis will be electronically monitored with an ankle monitor, and that he'll only be allowed to leave the place he'll be living to receive medical treatment, attend meetings with his attorney, or attend court proceedings. And then Judge Loper said something else, something directed right at the person who wasn't there, the prosecutor, District Attorney Doug Evans.

And I want to say this while I'm on record on this case, I want to note the troubling fact that in the nearly four months that this case has been back before the court, the state of Mississippi has taken absolutely no action of any kind in furtherance of this prosecution. Even after being ordered to do so, the state failed to file a written response to the motion for bail. The state's also failed to file a written response to the motion to disqualify District Attorney Doug Evans, even though the state, again, had notice of that. The state has also failed to file a written response to the pending motion to dismiss the indictment. So I just will have this caution for the state of Mississippi.

If it continues in its dilatory conduct and if it continues to ignore orders issued by the court, the state of Mississippi will reap the whirlwind. And, Ms. Hopper, your boss chose for whatever reason not to be here today. I don't know why he's not here. I expected him to be here today. I don't know why he's not here. I expected him to be here. Nonetheless, he is not, so I expect you to convey the message to him that this court expects prompt action from that office on all matters that are ordered to be responded to by that office from this court. Now is there any questions about from either side about the ruling of

the court? That will be all then. This court will stand in recess. Curtis was taken out of the courtroom to be brought to a local jail while bail was being worked out. Natalie and I went over to Curtis' family right away. They all looked stunned. Everyone is hugging. Mr. Flowers and Priscilla, Curtis' sister. People are crying. That is good. Hey, anybody.

You sure are. Good to see you, too. How are you feeling? Oh, my God. Joyful. Very joyful. Veryful. Very joyful. Very grateful. Very thankful.

Did you think this was going to happen? I knew it was going to happen. Because I had... You just talked and you said, it's going to happen, right? It's going to happen. I knew because we had faith in God. And this time it was different. What was different?

I always came to trial. My mom always said, stay strong. Do not let courtesy you cry. And I cried from the moment I left work all through the trial, tears of joy. And I'm so very grateful, so very grateful. You cried all day today. I did. I did because it was tears of joy. This time it was different, very different. What are you going to do now that Curtis is coming home? What are you going to do with him? Oh, we're going to pray. We're going to recap over the 23 years that he missed.

It's not going to be a celebration because, you know, we don't know exactly what's going to happen, but we're going to continue to keep the faith because I know God will prevail. And we kept that for 23 years and it finally happened. So we're very grateful, very thankful. After a minute or so, TV reporters rushed over. A mic and a camera popped up right next to me, and then another and another until we could barely move. We were wedged in between all these cameras. Then someone turned on a bright light, and Archie Flowers' face lit up, making it look as though he was glowing when he spoke. Janet Shalim from CBS News. What is your reaction? I don't know. I just look up and say, thank you, Jesus.

Did you think this would happen today here? Yeah, I felt pretty good about it. How do you think your son will be with, how do you think he'll be now with being out? I don't know. I'm too full to even talk. The cameras turned to Curtis' sister, Priscilla. I'm like that. I'm too full to talk right now. Oh, Lordy G. But he got his family back.

All I can say is, lady, your baby is home. That's all I can say. This is just a tribute to his mother because she's not here to see it, but she always had the faith to know he was coming home. Outside, Curtis's attorney, Rob McDuff, addressed reporters. We're very pleased with the judge's decision on bail. For the first time in 23 years, Curtis Flowers will be out of prison. He's very much looking forward to spending time with his family.

And we are very much looking forward to bringing this case to a conclusion in the near future. Once the new year rolls around, we will be moving forward on our motion to dismiss the charges, and we will continue to press this case forward. If they are not dismissed, we will be ready for a seventh trial, at which we fully believe Curtis Flowers will be found not guilty. After the hearing, we called Doug Evans' office. A secretary answered and said Evans wasn't there. He left a message. Evans didn't call us back. The local paper in Winona, the Winona Times, quoted Doug Evans as telling them that he wasn't

in court that day because he was, quote, tied up with another case and that he was surprised by Judge Loper's order granting bail. We later learned that while Curtis's bail hearing was happening, Doug Evans was actually in the county of Grenada, 20-some miles away, at a swearing-in ceremony for officials. Evans won re-election this fall. He ran unopposed. Someone sent us a photo of Evans from that event. The photo showed him with a big grin. Later in the day on Monday, an anonymous donor put up the $25,000 Curtis needed to post bail. All right, so we are pulling into the jail.

It's the Winston-Chalktown County Regional Correctional Facility. And there's a sign up here that says, Notice, all persons and vehicles are subject to search prior to entering the grounds of this facility. So this is where Curtis probably is right now. So he was taken from the courthouse back to this jail, which is like an hour away. It's like super rural, kind of a remote location. And then this is where the family has headed visitors. It's designed for visitors.

And we see the family's car. Looks like Priscilla's here. Oh, it's so windy. Wow. Incredibly windy. Incredibly windy. So we're outside the jail, super windy out, and the Flowers family just pulled up, and so did some of the lawyers in the case in another car. So yeah, I think this is going to happen pretty soon. We waited outside. The jail overlooked a massive hill with garbage everywhere, some of it covered with dirt. It was a local dump, and as the wind whipped around, the smell was unmistakable. I feel like there are dump trucks on the other side dumping right now. It's the sound of some heavy trucks.

Reporters took out their phones to watch radar images of the storm growing closer. Oh my gosh, the wind. It's like a hurricane out here. It really is. As we waited, a law enforcement officer came out and warned us that a storm was coming in and a tornado watch had been issued. He put a plastic covering over his uniform hat.

You've got like a plastic thing over your hat for the rain. Felt hats don't do well in storms. I love that. You're prepared. You're more prepared than anyone else here. Okay, here they come. Look alive. So, Curtis is walking out of jail right now. With Priscilla and his lawyers.

Yep. And Sherita. Mm-hmm. So he's walking out. There's Curtis wearing his suit that he was wearing in the courtroom. He's walking with one sister, one on each side of him. Priscilla and Sherita. Curtis' sisters were beaming.

They wore black shirts with the hashtag FreeCurtisFlowers. Curtis stopped when he got to the parking lot. Microphones and cameras clustered around him. Get a good space. How are you feeling? How are you feeling right now? I feel good right now. I'm happy I'm out to be spending time with family.

Looking forward to Christmas. After nearly three years of covering the case and talking to so many people who knew Curtis, I'd never actually met Curtis myself. And it turns out he was exactly as his family and friends had described. He didn't break down crying or fall to his knees on the grass. He just stood there smiling, happy to be with his family. He was just a few feet in front of me and all the other reporters. Did you think this day, what were your thoughts?

Did you think this day would ever come? I knew it would, but I didn't know when. Yeah, but I always knew it would. Yes. What are you looking forward to now that you're out? Spending time with family. Yeah, and talking with Miss Madeline soon. Yes, and see how the holidays go. What are you going to do tonight?

Probably somewhere eating. Any kind of food you missed? Yeah, we're going to go for our fish. I know that your mom has passed away this time. I'm sorry. Could you just kind of talk about how she would look at this day a little bit? She would probably be doing flips right now. Yes.

She looked forward to this. And she always knew it would come. She said she didn't know if she'd be here or not. But, yeah. What have these 20-plus years been like for you? It's been rough. It's been rough. You know, we've been taking it one day at a time, you know, keeping God first.

And I think that's how I got through it. You have a lot of people who have been working for you, many over the years. What would you say to them? I want to thank all of them, all the supporters, everything, everyone. After so many trials where things didn't go your way, what does it feel like to be at a hearing where it worked? It felt good. It felt real good.

Real good. Yes, it did. Were you surprised? Well, no, not really. The best. Your sister said earlier that you always said you knew this day was going to come,? Well, I don't know. I'm so excited right now. I can't even think straight.

But I look forward to spending time with them. I just can't. I can't. Thank you all very much. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you all. Good luck to't. Thank you all very much. Thank you all. Thank you all. Good luck to you.

Thank you. And then, Curtis Flowers got into a sister's truck. The rest of the family climbed in, and they drove off. Congratulations. Our team is still in Mississippi. We're going to continue to report from here, and we'll be back soon with another episode. With more interviews, more information about what will happen next in the case. Also, check out our website for a lot more on what happened yesterday, including a video of the hearing itself, photos of Curtis and his family, and lots more.

That's all at inthDarkPodcast.org. In the Dark is edited by Catherine Winter. Web editors are Dave Mann and Andy Cruz. The editor-in-chief of APM Reports is Chris Worthington. Original music by Gary Meister and Johnny Vince Evans. This episode was mixed by Corey Schreppel. Hi, this is David Remnick, and I'm pleased to share the news that I'm Not a Robot, a live-action short film from the New Yorker's Screening Room series, has been shortlisted for the Academy Awards. This thought-provoking film grapples with questions that we can all relate to about identity and technology and what it means to be human in an increasingly digital world.

I encourage you to watch I'm Not a Robot, along with our full slate of documentary and narrative films, at newyorker.com slash video.