In The Dark - S2 E4: The Confessions

Episode Date: May 15, 2018

Over the years, three inmates have claimed that Curtis Flowers confessed to them that he killed four people at the Tardy Furniture store. But they've all changed their stories at one time or another. In this episode, we investigate who's really telling the truth.  Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

Previously on In the evidence. Asked me was I trying to buy a mobile home. Asked me if I knew what $30,000 could buy. They ended everything with this money to let me know that it's on the table. He never did hang around much at all no more than. I think that he know he just told, you know, he told a story on Curtis.

I think that Curtis should have been out a long time ago. About six months after the murders at Tardy Furniture, a guy named Morgan McClurg was arrested for stealing. He wound up in a jail cell in Leflore County, Mississippi. The cell that Morgan was placed in was overcrowded. There were three bunks, and the cell was supposed to fit six people. But Morgan said there were as many as eight or nine of them in there at the same time. So at night, you had all the beds full, plus two or three people sleeping on the floor.

And during the day, you know, whoever slept on the floor would pick their mattresses and blankets up, fold them up. We'd use them as chairs or whatever. It was so crowded, there was barely enough room for everyone to stand up at the same time. There was no privacy. You couldn't have a private conversation. You couldn't even turn the page of a book without everyone noticing. 24-hour a day, you was in that cell. And we had a shower in there, the bathroom was in there,

and the sink was in there. So we never left the cell unless it was to go to court or go to the doctor's appointment or something like that. One of the other men in that overcrowded cell was Curtis Flowers. Curtis was there awaiting trial. This was in 1997, and by this point, Curtis had already been arrested for the killings at Tardy Furniture. But Morgan said Curtis didn't seem like a murderer to him. Myself, I couldn't see him doing it, not the way he portrayed himself there. I was more comfortable with Curtis than I was with some of the other guys in there. I mean, he was always polite.

He never got mad at anybody, never raised his voice. He kept to himself a lot, playing solitaire on his bunk or watching TV. If he had something, you needed something, he'd let you borrow it or whatever. I mean, he was one of the nicest guys there. I really thought he was going to get off. I really thought he was going to get off. Our producer Natalie talked to another man who was in that cell with Curtis for months. His name is Timmy Haymore.

Natalie talked to him outside his mom's house. It was kind of noisy because there was a flock of birds in the trees nearby. And Timmy told her that Curtis wasn't like the other inmates. When everyone else would be playing dominoes, Curtis would be reading his Bible and writing letters to his family. And he said Curtis got pretty down at times.

Like one day, when Curtis just wouldn't get out of bed at all. And he sat there, and he said, Lord knows, Lord knows best. I didn't do this. That's and he said, Lord knows, Lord knows best. I didn't do this. That's what he said. And tears was coming out of his eyes. And you can feel, if you're human, you can feel when a person telling the truth

and telling a lie. He said, I didn't do this. I don't know why they charged me with this. I didn't do this. I didn't do this. That's what Curtis Flowers told Timmy Haymore. But according to District Attorney Doug Evans, Curtis told something else to two other men who were in that cell. In that crowded little room in the middle of the night when everyone else was sleeping, Curtis confessed to the murders at Tardy Furniture. Two times, in two secret conversations to two men. One of them was named Maurice Hawkins. The other was named Frederick Veal.

That was a story, at least, that Hawkins and Veal told at Curtis Flowers' first trial in 1997. Two men from one cell. Doug Evans told the jurors that Curtis couldn't help himself. Evans said, quote, As most criminals do, he didn't have the ability not to brag about what he had done. And Evans presented these two jailhouse informants as credible. He said neither of them got anything in exchange for their statements. One of the jailhouse snitches, Maurice Hawkins, died in 2016.

But the other snitch, Frederick Veal, is still alive. This is Season 2 of In the Dark, an investigative podcast by APM Reports. I'm Madeline Barron. This season is about the case of Curtis Flowers, a black man from a small town in Mississippi who spent the past 21 years fighting for his life, and a white prosecutor who spent that same time trying just as hard to execute him. The case against Curtis Flowers came down to three main pieces of evidence.

The route, the gun, the confessions. This is an episode about the confessions. One day in February, our producer Samara went to the suburbs of Atlanta to track down Frederick Veal. She found him in front of his house at the end of a cul-de-sac. Hey, are you Fred Veal by any chance? Yes, ma'am. I'm Samara.

Who is you? I'm a reporter. Frederick Veal was wearing a black tank top. He had two tattoos of pinup girls, one on each arm. They went inside. Frederick Veal lives with his wife and daughter, who are upstairs watching TV. I got company down here. She can hear everything that's affecting her ear.

Samara and Frederick sat in his living room. Frederick lit a menthol cigarette. Okay, you ready? Yes, so tell me, where's your story start? Well, it started back when I got locked up in the Floor County Jail. Frederick had been arrested for stealing his sister's car. He didn't have money for bail, so he was stuck there, trying to figure out a way to get out. And Frederick knew his way around the legal system.

Over the years, he'd committed a lot of mostly petty crimes. And he got locked up all the time, on all kinds of charges. He knew the sheriff, a man named Ricky Banks. And so, Frederick said, he wrote Sheriff Banks a letter. I said, man, you need to help me get out. And he called me out, shackled me down, had him bring me down there to talk to him. Frederick said Sheriff Banks made him an offer. He said, Mr. Bill, I got something for you to do.

I'm going to let you go if you work with us. I said, what you mean? He said, I can help you get out of here. I said, well, I'd do anything to get out of here, man. I'm going to set up in this jail, man. Frederick said Sheriff Banks told him that he could use his help in this murder case the cops had going. The sheriff told him that the cops had a man named Curtis Flowers

sitting in this jail right now. Curtis hadn't gone to trial yet. This was back in 1997, before the first trial. And so I'm put in the cell with Curtis Flowers. And you can get some information out of him that he did that murder, I'll let you go. And did you know who Curtis Flowers was at that point? Never seen him a day in my life.

I hadn't even heard about the story. I was locked up. I didn't know nothing about no murder or none of that. And why know nothing? I didn't know nothing about that. And I said, well, okay, I don't know him. I'll go in and talk to him and see if he can't get something out of him. And he put me in the cell the same day. Told me to pack my stuff and go in there and put me in the same cell.

Frederick said he was sent there on a mission to try to get a confession out of Curtis Flowers. But, he said, he didn't follow through. So did you try to get anything out of Curtis? No, I didn't try. I didn't ask him nothing. I didn't even say nothing to him. He was to himself. He didn't talk much. He watched TV. He didn't say much. He didn't say much to nobody. Just a laid-back type of guy. He don't look like no murderer. Frederick said that after a few days,

Sheriff Banks called him back to the office. He said, what'd you get from Curtis? I said, I can't get nothing out of him. I ain't said nothing to him. He don't look like he, you know, just want to talk. And Frederick thought that would be the end of it. But he said it wasn't. Frederick said he met with Sheriff Banks

and the district attorney, Doug Evans, together. Then they tell me, we're going to do it this way then. We're going to tell you what to say. I said, okay, I'll work with you. You let me go. I'm down with you. I want to get out. He said, you can go today. I said, okay, come on, let me run it. And he said the sheriff and Doug Evans started telling him all these details about the murders at Tardy Furniture. I didn't know nothing about that case and about the people that got killed or not. At this point, it's just the Darby's or Harvey's, Tardy,, I don't know. They told me that. I didn't know nothing about the game.

Oh, so how did— With the.380 and all that. I don't know. I'm not a gun man, so I don't really know what a.380 from a.357. Oh, really? Yeah, I'm not a gun person. I scatter guns. How did they tell—they just, like, did they show you any documents?

Did they just tell you? They showed me pictures. Pictures of the gruesome scene. They did? Yeah, they showed me pictures of the gruesome scene. Pictures. And it was gruesome, too. And so you want him to get away with this shit here?

Look, look, look at this shit. Doug Evans had all the pictures sitting in front of me. Doug Evans, the prosecutor. Gruesome pictures. I shouldn't have seen them pictures. the pictures sitting in front of me. Doug Evans, the prosecutor, grew some pictures. I shouldn't have seen them pictures. And Frederick says that together, he and the sheriff and the DA, Doug Evans, put together a story. On March 11th, 1997, Frederick Veal gave a taped statement to the DA's investigator, John Johnson, saying that Curtis Flowers confessed to him. Here, let me show you, can I show you some of these documents from, hold on.

Samara brought the transcript to her interview with Frederick to see what he'd make of it 21 years later. What is it, a must statement? The story that Frederick Veal had told about Curtis confessing took place over a late-night game of dominoes. It was around four in the morning, and everyone else was sleeping. And so, Frederick was the only one who heard what Curtis said. Curtis told him that he'd killed four people at a furniture store.

Curtis told him, quote, that he was mad, and he went in there, and he just clicked. him, quote, that he was mad, and he went in there, and he just clicked. Curtis told him he killed the lady first and the little boy last. He said he didn't want to kill the boy, but he couldn't leave any witnesses. Curtis used the money he stole from the store, about 20-something hundred dollars, to buy crack. A lot of crack. Frederick said Curtis told him that he'd started off, quote, buying a hundred dollar piece. And before he knew it, he said he'd smoked up to a thousand dollars. Crack? Crack cocaine?

I don't know. Yeah. And then this quote, like, I'm not worried. All they got on me is circumstantial evidence. I'm going to beat this. Circumstantial evidence. That dog gave me no. That dog gave me no on that. I wouldn't think of nothing like that to say in my life.

Most of that stuff is stuff they put together. The same day that Frederick Veal gave this statement to John Johnson, back in March of 1997, he got out of jail. Because that very same day, Frederick's sister, the one he'd stolen the car from, dropped the charges. Yeah, the charges were dropped. But they let me go, so I was out. We went to ask Frederick's sister, Sheila, about this. And Sheila said, that was so long ago, she can't remember what happened to those charges.

Frederick Veal got out of jail, he went home. And sometime later, he's not sure exactly how much later it was, he said he got a call from Doug Evans. So were you willing to go to court? Mr. Veal, would you go to court and testify that he told you that he killed them people? I said, yes, sir. He said, if he get convicted, it's a reward, and I make sure you get all the money. I'm young, too. I said, oh, man, broke and young. I said, okay, sure, yeah, sure. Frederick took this reward talk seriously.

He said Doug Evans told him that there was a $30,000 reward in the case and that if he testified against Curtis, he could split that reward with the other jailhouse snitch, Maurice Hawkins, who was also going to testify against Curtis. And so Frederick started dreaming about what he could buy with $15,000. He had this idea that he could use this money to transform himself into, as he put it, a thug. I said, I'm going to be like a thug. I was looking at jewelry, rings, everything.

I said, I'm going to get gold put in my mouth and everything, tattoos, everything. Promise people I'm going to get them money and this and that when I get my money. All kinds of crap. Really? Yeah. I went car shopping. I was looking for a new car. What kind of car did you want?

I think it was a Malibu. Yeah, a Chevy Malibu. Yeah, old school. And so you actually went to the car dealer? I went everywhere. You're like, what can I get for you? Look at that clothes, new clothes, everything. Oh, yeah.

You made like a wish list. A wish list, yes. And so Frederick went to Tupelo for Curtis Flowers' first trial. Oh, yeah. You made like a wish list. A wish list, yes. And so Frederick went to Tupelo for Curtis Flowers' first trial. He was going to hold up his part of the bargain, and then he was going to get his money. And at first, everything seemed to be going great. So they paid for my hotel and everything. Nice hotel, good eating food, $100 cash in my pocket.

Maurice Hawkins, the other jailhouse snitch, was there too. Frederick said the two of them shared a hotel room. Me and him had the same. We had a big old hotel with double beds and restaurant and all that. But before we went to the courtroom, before they took us to the courtroom, Doug Evans came to our room and went over what to say, rehearsing me on how the pit defense team was going to come at me and everything was just like going to school and you teaching me what to say and how to do things.

So he was like prepping you? Uh-huh, yeah. So pretty much when I went to court, I was prepared. I know that when they came at me, I know what to say. I just say what I say, what he told me to say. I did. I went up there, and I did it perfectly, too. I didn't miss a beat. And they said, you did a good job up there. I've read the transcript of Frederick Veal's testimony, and he's right. He did do a really good job of telling this story. He clearly had command of it. The late-night domino game, the confession, Curtis's anger, his drug use,

this whole story of a heart-to-heart between two cellmates. Frederick Veal tells the jurors, quote, In his closing argument in that first trial, Doug Evans told the jurors that Frederick Veal and Maurice Hawkins, quote, had absolutely nothing to gain by making their statements. This information came to the investigators, Evans said. They followed it up, they took the statements, and it is verified. And, Evans said, quote,

Frederick Veal and Maurice Hawkins are the two final elements that make this case beyond any doubt, not just beyond a reasonable doubt. Frederick Veal told Samara that he was actually pretty surprised that anyone took him seriously at all. Like, if he was a juror and he was looking at himself, Frederick Veal, sitting up there in the witness box, he would be like, no way. That guy? I'm not a credible witness. Why you going to take me on the stand?

I'm not credible. I got a misdemeanor record along with Texas, over 100-something misdemeanor. I'm a convicted felon. I'm in jail, too. I'm in jail. How you going to convict me on my statement? That's what I want to know.

How I get convicted on my statement? But it worked out for him. It worked out for him. He got convicted. Frederick said that after the trial, he started asking Doug Evans for him. He got convicted. Frederick said that after the trial, he started asking Doug Evans for his $15,000. I said, where the money at, man? I just got convicted. I said, where your money at? We're going to get in touch with you. So time would pass and by. I said, man, that man ain't got nothing to do with me. Every time I call, they won't let me talk to him. So I go up there, they won't let me talk to him. Wait, so you would actually call

Doug Evans or go to his office? Did you ever go to his office? Uh-huh. But they never let me talk to him. I ran him down and ran him down. I still didn't get nothing, nothing out of there. I didn't even see Doug ever after that. I said, oh, okay. I said, okay, y'all played me. I said, okay, okay, okay. And so they never, you never got any money? I never got my money. Frederick Veal and Maurice Hawkins never testified again before a jury in the case of Curtis Flowers. About a year or so after Frederick Veal took the stand and said that Curtis had confessed to him, he recanted. He told Curtis's lawyers that the story wasn't true, that Curtis had not confessed to him. Frederick Veal also signed an affidavit in 2016 saying that Curtis never confessed to him

and that Doug Evans and Sheriff Ricky Banks had met with him to make up a story. The affidavit says mostly what Frederick Veal told Samara, except that in the affidavit version, Veal said the money was offered by in the affidavit version, Veal said the money was offered by the DA's investigator, John Johnson, and that the amount was $30,000. Maurice Hawkins also signed an affidavit. He signed his in 2015. And in that affidavit, Hawkins said that the story he told in court wasn't true. He said Curtis never confessed to him. Less than a year after signing that affidavit, Maurice Hawkins died. Those two affidavits are being used right now

in Curtis's appeal. The kind of appeal that's happening right now is something called a post-conviction. It's when you can bring in new evidence that's never been considered at trial. Curtis's lawyers are hoping these affidavits, along with other new information, will help convince the court to overturn Curtis's latest conviction and death sentence. It's been nearly 21 years since Frederick Veal got up on the stand

and told a jury that Curtis Flowers had confessed to a quadruple murder. Frederick's testimony had helped convince jurors to convict Curtis Flowers and sentence him to death. You talked to Curtis Flowers? I haven't.

You got a message for him? I don't know. Seriously, I do not know. I was young and stupid. I did like me putting a gun to that man's head and blowing their brains out. That's the way it went. Jailhouse snitches are used all the time in jails and courtrooms all over the country. But exactly how often they're used, we don't know,

because it's not tracked. I talked to a law professor at UC Irvine about this. Her name is Alexandra Natapoff. She studies the government's use of informants, including jailhouse snitches. She told me, the way this works, it's like a business. Everything is negotiated. In effect, we're running an enormous market.

And so trading information is just one way that people navigate that market. And in this market where information is traded, the value of that information often depends on the case. In a case with a lot of evidence, Natapoff told me, prosecutors often don't need or even want a snitch. But we see over and over and time and time again in a weak case, in a case where it's difficult to prove guilt, that jailhouse informants fill in the gap, either because they come forward themselves entrepreneurially,

because so many people in the jail system understand that if they come forward, they will be rewarded, or because the government reaches out. When prosecutors use snitches, there are some rules that they have to follow. If the case goes to trial, a prosecutor is required to disclose anything given or promised to a snitch in exchange for the snitch's statement. And prosecutors are not allowed to use snitches at trial who they know are lying. That's true not just of snitches, but of any witnesses. Natapoff told me that's just a basic requirement of being a

prosecutor. So the prosecutor has a constitutional obligation not to use a witness who they know is committing perjury. In the same way that they have a constitutional obligation to disclose a benefit if they go to trial, the Supreme Court has told us over and over again that prosecutors are special, that it is not just their job to get convictions, but to do justice, that they are representatives of the government, of the sovereign, and that at the end of the day, the most important thing is for the prosecutor to proceed in an ethical manner that serves justice. And the truth is, we rely on that. In court, Doug Evans has always maintained that as far as he knew,

Frederick Veal and Maurice Hawkins were telling the truth when they said that Curtis had confessed. Evans and the sheriff, Ricky Banks, have both said in court that neither one of these men got anything in exchange for their statements. No money, no plea deal, no dropped charges, nothing. I tried to ask Doug Evans about this, but he declined to comment. So I decided to give Ricky Banks a call. He's still the sheriff of Leflore County. Sheriff Banks? Hi, Sheriff Banks. This is Madeline Barron. I'm a reporter. It's good to talk to you. What you got going?

Yeah, so I wanted to give you a call to see if I could see what you could possibly remember about a man named Frederick Veal. Yeah. Yeah, I know the name. He's just a small-time guy. He was in trouble in and out, but it's small crimes. Well, yeah, I know the name. He's just a small-time guy. He was, you know, he was in trouble in and out, but it's small crimes. It wasn't nothing like murder or armed robbery or anything like that, but I hadn't heard from him in a good while.

Okay. Had you done something upstate or something? No, not that I know of, no. I was wanting to just talk to you because of his involvement in the Curtis Flowers case. Yeah. What about the Curtis Flowers case? Do you remember him being in the jail? Because he's the guy who said that Curtis confessed to him in the jail. No, I'd have to look back.

So I know that there was an inmate during that time, that short time that we held for hours, and I think it was an inmate that came forward and said he told him that he did the shooting. So do you remember how Frederick Veal came to be in the cell with Curtis? No, I don't. Okay. And do you know if he got anything in exchange for his statement? I do not know.

So we ended up tracking him down, and he was saying that he, that what had happened was that he was in jail and that he wanted to get out of jail. He was, like, looking for a way to get out. And so he, like, appealed to you, basically. And what he said is that you basically made him an offer, like, if you can go into the cell and get Curtis to admit to these murders, then you can get out. And he said, I went in, but I actually didn't even ask Curtis. And then he said he came out and he told you, well, he didn't actually confess. And then what Frederick Veal is saying is what happened next is that he was in a room with yourself and with the district attorney, Doug Evans, and the three of you made up a story about Curtis confessing.

I hadn't made up a story about anything. I don't make up a story. I wouldn't be here if I made stories up. I've been here since 1972. So, no. So what do you make of him saying that? I didn't meet with the DA and anybody else to discuss a statement that you're talking about. Okay.

So did you send him in, though, to begin with? I don't know. How long has that been? 20 years ago? 21 years ago, yeah. Yeah. I couldn't tell you what I sent him in? 20 years ago? 21 years ago, yeah. Yeah. I couldn't tell you what I said, well, not 20 years ago. Okay. You got me. I think you got enough.

So I'm not going to sit here and talk to you, trying to put words in my mouth, and I don't know whether they're true or not, okay? Yeah, no, I wouldn't... I guess you're going to go back and if I testified or if he testified, then it'll be on the record, okay? Yeah. I got to go. I got to go to work.

I ain't got time for the news reporter, okay? I'll see you later. Bye. Okay. Thanks for talking to me. So Doug Evans had lost his two snitches. But that didn't matter as much as you might think. Because, according to Doug Evans, Curtis Flowers confessed again, to another inmate. This time, it happened in Parchman Prison. And this new snitch wasn't like the other two. Because this snitch stuck around. He's testified in trial after trial, including Curtis's most recent one. If Curtis has a seventh trial, this guy will most

likely be there. And the story of what is going on with this snitch took us an entire year to uncover. This snitch's name is Odell, has been shortlisted for the Academy Awards. This thought-provoking film grapples with questions that we can all relate to about identity and technology and what it means to be human in an increasingly digital world. I encourage you to watch I'm Not a Robot, along with our full slate of documentary and narrative films, at newyorker.com slash video. The story of how this new jailhouse informant came to be part of the Curtis Flowers case actually starts with his sister, a woman named Patricia Hallman. Patricia lived in Winona. Back in 1996, she was 26 years old, and she was Curtis's next-door neighbor. And a few weeks after the murders at Tardy Furniture,

she ended up telling an investigator all kinds of things. Like that she saw Curtis on the morning of the murders running into his house, like he was in a rage. And that in the days before the murders, she'd overheard an argument between Curtis and his girlfriend, and she said she'd heard Curtis say something to his girlfriend that she assumed was about his job at Tardy Furniture. She said Curtis said, quote, fuck everybody down there. And when the trial came around, Patricia Hallman testified to all of this, as a witness for the prosecution.

And she's testified in every trial since. Natalie and I spent weeks searching for Patricia Hallman. We found out that she'd moved to Jackson, about an hour and a half from Winona. And so, one day in September of last year, we went to talk to her. Hi, Patricia. Hi, um, You're welcome. Hi. How's your morning going?

All right. And right away, Patricia Hallman started telling me things that were different from what she testified to during the Curtis Flowers trials. Did you ever hear him, like, talk about, like, hurting people at the store or his job in, like, a negative way? No, no, no, no, no. Like anything negative at work? No, no no no no i ain't never heard that boy say nothing negative at work never or about work or anything no no ma'am okay no no no ma'am i ain't finna laugh at nobody no ma'am what no kind of talk about nobody murder nobody or nothing wrong on with his job. Ain't nobody said, he ain't even act like no violent person.

No, ma'am, he did not. Patricia told me that Curtis Flowers was a nice person. She called him the sweetest gentleman. The sweetest person you'd ever want to know. He act like the sweetest gentleman. I'm talking lovable, sweet of a gentleman. The sweetest person you want to know. He act like this sweetest gentleman. I'm talking about a lovable sweet little gentleman. The sweetest person you want to know.

When I asked Patricia why her story had changed, why it was different from what she'd said in court, she didn't want to talk about it. I don't really have nothing, really nothing else to say. I'm just tired. They need to go on and wrap this stuff up and leave it alone. I'm tired.

In Curtis's first trial, Curtis's lawyers tried to challenge Patricia on the stand. But unlike when Patricia talked to me, in court, Patricia just stuck to her story. It seemed like there wasn't anything the defense could do to get her to crack. But then one day, as Curtis's lawyers were preparing for his second trial, But then one day, as Curtis's lawyers were preparing for his second trial, they got a letter. And this letter said that Patricia Hallman's story was a lie. And the letter came from Patricia's own brother, a man named Odell Hallman. The letter was a single page, written in neat cursive, on a sheet of lined paper that had been singed at the edges, like a pirate's treasure map.

My name is Odell Hallman, it read, and I am writing in concern of the case he was handling, the case of Curtis Flowers. My sister was a witness in that case. In this letter, Odell Hallman said that his sister Patricia's testimony was something the two of them had cooked up together to try to get some reward money. The letter was addressed to Curtis's lawyer at the time, a man named Chokwe Lumumba. It started at the county jail, Odell wrote. I had a fine to pay off, and I didn't have the money. So I told her to tell the police that I was a victim. I told the police that I was a victim of the murders.

She knew who committed these murders so she could get that $30,000 and get me out. Odell went on, I'm truly sorry everything happened this way. I never thought Curtis would be found guilty. All I was thinking about at that time was myself.

Mr. Lumumba, I'm willing to do anything in my power to make up for what I did. I'm truly sorry for what me and my sister did. The letter ended, Thanks for listening. Mr. Lumumba, I hope that I can be of some use to you. I never thought things would have gotten out of hand like this. Thanks for listening. The defense did listen, and they put Odell Hallman on the stand to testify at Curtis's second trial in 1999. Odell told the jurors just what he'd said in the letter, and he said that he decided to come forward because, quote, my conscience was bothering me. But it wasn't long before Odell

Hallman switched sides. Today's date is May the 7th of year 2001. The location is in Carroll, I got a copy of a video that was recorded by law enforcement in a jail in Vaden, Mississippi, in May of 2001. It's an interview of Odell Hallman by the district attorney's investigator, John Johnson. It had been only two or three years since Odell Hallman had written to the lawyer for Curtis Flowers, offering to help the defense. Now, in 2001, Odell Hallman was offering that same help, this time to the prosecution. And I would point out that this statement is free and voluntary on your part. Is that correct? Yes, sir.

In this video, Odell Hallman is sitting in a chair on the right of the frame, and John Johnson is on the opposite side. Odell's 25 at the time. He's a big guy with wide-set eyes, a chin-strap beard, and a buzz cut. He's wearing an orange jumpsuit, and his hands are cuffed in front of him. He keeps twisting his fingers together

and darting his eyes around the room. John Johnson is wearing a button-down short-sleeved shirt and tie. He's wearing glasses and holding a stack of papers. He has a legal pad open on his lap. It's 11.33 in the morning on May 7, 2001. You're contacting us and volunteering this statement, is that correct? We haven't promised you any reward or good treatment or nothing, is that correct?

And here's what Odell told them. He said that he'd lied when he testified for the defense. He said that actually, his sister Patricia had always been telling the truth about Curtis. his sister Patricia had always been telling the truth about Curtis. And he said the reason that he helped the defense, the reason that he testified in the second trial that his sister was a liar, was because Curtis asked him to when they were hanging out together in prison. I asked him what was in it for me.

And he told me, he said, man, I can get you some money, and while you're here, I can take care of you while you're here locked up, and I can get you some money. I can get you some money, take care of you while you are here locked up. Just to tell them, folks, what he wanted me to tell them. So we sat there, and he made up a good line. I just told him. When he said that he would take care of you, cigarettes were somewhat of a commodity while in that facility.

Is that correct? Yes, sir. And they were hard to come by, and he was providing cigarettes from you, you indicated. Is that right? Right, right. And you said that he had money, was able to come by, and he was providing cigarettes from you, you indicated. Is that right? Right, right. And you said that he had money, was able to get cigarettes, where you were not able to. And not just cigarettes.

Odell said Curtis had promised to give him some money once he got out of prison. And what else did he say as far as money or reward? Yeah, he told me, he said he got a thousand, thousand dollars. Thousands and thousands of dollars. He was telling me, he said, I can get you about $15,000. I can get you about $15,000 once you get out of here. Money at the time, I could do anything for it. You say this, that's what it was. You know, money at the time, I can do anything for it.

Yes, sir. You lied and worked with Curtis Flowers and made up a story to try to discredit your sister's testimony, is that correct? Yes, sir. I lied. I did. After ten minutes, the interview was over. We only wanted the truth, is that correct? Sure. Well, that will conclude the statement, and the time is now 11.48 a.m. But then, three hours later, for some reason, they did a second interview with Odell Hallman. And when they turned the recorder back on, Odell was sitting in the same room, in the same chair.

He was wearing the same orange scrubs. John Johnson was still there. The location is the Carroll-Montgomery County Regional Jail Facility in Bailey. The president is Odell Hallman. I don't know what happened between these two recordings, but apparently someone contacted Odell's lawyer, a man named Lee Bailey. Mr. Hallman, you're represented by your attorney here today, Mr. Lee Bailey, and you have contacted us through your attorney indicating that you want to give a statement

as to what occurred between you and Curtis Flowers. Is that true? Yes, sir. The second time around, Odell didn't just say that Curtis had asked him to lie about his sister. Now the story was much more elaborate. Odell laid out a whole psychodrama between himself and Curtis. Two men, locked up, each trying to get something, each trying to get away with something,

neither of them sure whom to trust. Odell said he was angry that Curtis still hadn't paid him the money. Odell said he even confronted Curtis about it. I said, man, you promise me the money if I just get up there and lie on my sister. You're going back on your word. I said, man, you just promised me the money if I just get up there and lie on my sister. You're going back on your word. And Curtis replied, what is a man's word And Curtis replied, what is a man's word?

He said, what is a man's word? And from there, Odell described how he and Curtis would pass notes back and forth to each other in their cells, cryptic notes. In one, Curtis told him how weak his conscience was. How weak his conscience was. And Odell started to feel uneasy. He started to think, maybe this guy that I helped really is a murderer. He tried to ask Curtis if he killed the people at Tardy Furniture. You just smile at him. You smile at him every time. Curtis just smiled at him. He smiled every time.

One day, Odell looked Curtis straight in the eye and told him, Curtis, man, I see death in your eyes. Curtis got mad. He jumped up. He said, what are you trying to do? Are you trying to tell people I killed those folks? Is that what you're doing? And Odell said, well, Curtis, you can answer a question for me. Did you really kill them?

Curtis didn't answer. And then Curtis fell silent. Odell waited three days. And then a note arrived. It was from Curtis. three days. And then a note arrived. It was from Curtis. Curtis's note said, homie, a man gotta be a fool to tell on himself. And with that, Odell realized that this man he'd been helping, Curtis Flowers, was a murderer. He told me. I know that, out this whole story, the interview was over.

And Odell turns his head, he looks straight at the camera, he blinks, the screen goes black. straight at the camera. He blinks. The screen goes black. In the first version of the story, Odell had said he'd lied about his sister. In the second version, Odell had said that Curtis had implied he'd killed the people at Tardy Furniture. But there was another version of Odell's story, a third version. This third version of Odell's story came in the form of a letter written by Odell to the district attorney, Doug Evans. And this letter would prove much more valuable than anything Odell Hallman had said in those videos. I have a copy of this letter. It's handwritten in a neat slanting cursive. This letter begins, It's handwritten in a neat slanting cursive.

This letter begins, To Doug Evans, on the case of Curtis Flowers, my role in the case, and everything he told me, this I swear. In the letter, Odell wrote, quote, One day in the day room, Curtis told me that he had a lot on his mind, and he couldn't keep living like this. He said he would kill himself. And I said, if you was innocent, you would not be thinking like that. And he said, homeboy, that's the problem.

I'm not innocent. At Curtis's third trial in 2004, Odell Hallman took the stand for the prosecution. The other snitches, Frederick Veal and Maurice Hawkins, were gone, but Odell, the new snitch, was ready. He told the jury that Curtis Flowers had confessed to him. And the district attorney, Doug Evans, said the same thing about Odell that he said about the earlier snitches. Doug Evans said the same thing about Odell that he said about the earlier snitches, that Odell was credible and that he didn't get anything in exchange for his statement. And Odell's told that same story about Curtis confessing to him in every trial since. I talked to the defense lawyer who cross-examined Odell Hallman. His name is Ray Charles Carter,

and he was Curtis's lawyer from trials three through six. Ray Charles Carter told me Odell didn't just say that Curtis confessed to him. By the latest trial in 2010, Odell was spinning this whole story of personal redemption. He'd tell you he got his life together, he's not what he used to be, and all this kind of crap. I don't believe any of it, but he felt like he needed to say it. On cross-examination, Ray Charles Carter asked Odell, quote, when did you start telling the truth? When did you become honest? And Odell told him he's trying to become a better person. Because, Odell said, quote, I know there's a God in heaven and I know that I gotta see him soon, because I'm going through a medical crisis right now, so I want to get myself right with God.

Odell said, I got a conscience, Mr. Charles. I know I do. Lord knows I do. This medical crisis that Odell was referring to was that he'd been diagnosed as HIV positive. This was in 2010, and by 2010, being HIV positive, for most people in the United States, was no longer a death sentence. But Odell certainly made it seem like it was. Down of age, too, and I felt like that was just clearly trying to make them feel sympathetic. And I think he might even say that I wouldn't be on deathbed, basically, and coming here and lie.

I think he's one of the biggest liars I've met in my life. And I kind of scanned the jury, if I remember correctly, because I wanted to see if they were perceiving him as a fool, you know, whether they actually believed him. And they actually sat there and looked at him with seriousness as if they actually believed him, which defies logic to me. And that told me a story right there, too. We have no chance. If they're not rejecting this guy,

we can't possibly have a chance. We talked to six of the 12 jurors who sat on Curtis' latest trial, and none of them had anything negative to say about Odell Hallman's testimony. This is a juror from trial six named Janelle Johnson. I believed him. You know, I don't think he had anything. He didn't have anything to gain by coming in there.

You know, I believed him. To me, I feel like maybe he was trying to do the right thing, actually. If the case against Curtis Flowers had stronger evidence, like DNA, or people who witnessed the actual murders, then a snitch like Odell Hallman probably wouldn't have as much value to the prosecutor. And it wouldn't matter as much whether Odell was telling the truth. But right now, Odell Hallman's testimony is the only piece of so-called direct evidence against Curtis Flowers. Everything else the prosecutor has is circumstantial. The route that Curtis supposedly walked on the morning of the murders, the gun that Curtis supposedly stole and used to kill all four people, none of that adds up to 100% proof. Far from it. The prosecutor

has no evidence that proved that Curtis was even at the furniture store that morning, much less that he pulled the trigger. The best evidence the DA Doug Evans has is the word of one man, Odell Hallman. And so, I decided to find out everything I could about Odell Hallman. One of the first things I learned was that almost no one calls him Odell Hallman. Most people just call him Cookie. His sister Patricia told me why. Back in the day, Cookie Monster from 7th Street.

And he ate, he was just eating all the cookies and stuff. He just ate nothing but Cookie, Cookie, Cookie. So we called him Cookie Monster. Oh, really? Yeah. Like when he was a little kid? Uh-huh, when he was a little kid, he came on up in them, Cookie. Yeah, we called him Cookie Monster.

Well, we called him Cookie Monster. And as he grew, they took the monster off and just said Cookie. One person who knew Odell well was Joanne Young. You might remember her from episode two. She's the woman who helped me out when I was interviewing Roy Harris, the man who testified about seeing Curtis on the route that morning. Joanne has actually known Odell since the day he was born. She helped deliver him. He was the most beautiful, big baby I ever seen.

Really. Oh, he was handsome. Everybody would come off the street, would just come and look at that baby. But he was, he was spoiled. I remember when I used to see him in the store, he would get whatever he want. If he cried for it, he got it.

So he's spoiled? Yes. Not only his mother and auntie would him, other people were spoiled. Wow. You know, had spoiled. Because he was a cute, fat, little old chubby little old thing. But Joanne said that as Odell got older, he turned bad. When he got teenage, when he got teenage, he started getting in trouble. I just couldn't believe it.

Then I thought about it. Yeah, because he never worked for nothing. So that's what I figured that what it was. When Odell was a teenager, he started getting arrested and going to jail. And Joanne would run into him every time he got out. And every time she'd give him a good talking to. I talked, I said, oh, you finally got out, huh? She'd give him a good talking to. I talked, I said, oh, you finally got out, huh? Is you going to straighten yourself up?

Oh, Miss Joanne, yeah, I'm going to be good, I'm going to be good, I'm going to be good. I said, no, you ain't going to be good. I said, oh, there, let me tell you one thing. I said, oh, life is too short. I said, oh, there, straighten your life up. But Odell didn't straighten up, and Joanne said he didn't really need to. Joanne said that Odell seemed to get away with a lot. He would commit crimes, he would be sent away, and then, before you'd know it, he'd be back in town, up to his old tricks, causing trouble again.

Joanne said she could never figure out how exactly. Odell never seemed to get punished all that hard. The district attorney, Doug Evans, certainly had a reputation for being tough on crime. But when it came to Odell, she said, the rules seemed different. Odell got away with everything. He got privilege. A lot of privilege. Privilege.

That's next time on In the Dark. In the Dark is reported and produced by me, Madeline Barron, senior producer Samara Fremark, producer Natalie Jablonski, associate producer Raymond Tungakar, and reporters Parker Yesko and Will Craft. In the Dark is edited by Catherine Winter.

Web editors are Dave Mann and Andy Cruz. The editor-in-chief of APM Reports is Chris Worthington. Original music by Gary Meister and Johnny Vince Evans. This episode was mixed by Corey Schreppel. We put the videos of Odell Hallman's two interviews with the DA's investigator on our website. You can check them out at inthedarkpodcast.org. We also have all kinds of other videos and photos and documents on the site. Hi, this is David Remnick. I'm proud to share the news that three films from the New Yorker documentary series

have been shortlisted for the Academy Awards. And they are Incident, Seat 31, Zoe Zephyr, and Eternal Father. And they all immerse you in the finest cinematic journalism, exploring themes of justice, identity, and the bonds that shape us. These extraordinary films, which were created by established filmmakers as well as emerging artists, will inform, challenge, and move you. I encourage you to watch them along with our full slate of documentary and narrative films at newyorker.com slash video.

From PRX.