In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G - 3 habits for a successful date after matching on an app

Starting point is 00:00:00 you're listening to the in your pants podcast i'm your host dr suzy gronski your penis friendly pelvic health physical therapist sex counselor and educator helping you get in the know down below hi friends dr susie g here and welcome to another in your pants podcast on today's show we are talking about men and dating and why in a 2021 study that looked at loneliness around the world the trends that they observed were that men were lonelier than women we talk about what relationship skills that men might be struggling with that may make it difficult for them to connect with someone romantically and what men can do to improve their dating game on dating apps. To help me talk about these topics, I have invited Dr. Greg Matos to the show. Dr. Greg Matos is a

Starting point is 00:01:26 board-certified couple and family psychologist in Los Angeles, California. He is the founder of the charity A Better Love Project that helps people start healthier relationships from the beginning. Dr. Gregg is a former Marine Corps sergeant and recipient of the Bronze Star with Combat Valor. I hope you enjoy the show. Dr. Gregg, thank you so much for being on the show today. It's a pleasure to be here with you, Dr. Susie. So we're going to be talking about loneliness, particularly in this one study that I know you've written about, a 2021 study that they observed loneliness was greater in younger men than in women, which was interesting.

Starting point is 00:02:13 So I'm curious to hear what your opinion is on why this might be and what are some of the factors contributing to this gap? Yeah, the gap that you're noting and that I talked about in my article on Psychology Today is really a skills gap. And there's no blame that has to go anywhere, really, about why we're in the skills gap other than just recognizing we are. And so if you're a younger man, by the way, I'm not a younger man anymore. I think I passed that point of my existence. I'm turning 40 in February. so I'm a middle-aged man but if you are a younger man in today's world you're facing a dating

Starting point is 00:03:00 landscape that's drastically different than even Dr. Susidy when you and I were dating or whenever that was or perhaps your audience members maybe that was 10 years ago even or five years even five years ago Dr. Susidy things were different so I the point of my article there was like okay we've got these younger men who are facing more loneliness. What's the deal? And answering that question, I came to a few conclusions, at least hypotheses and assertions based on spending many, many hours with my audience on TikTok. I have over 40,000 followers at A Better Love Project and spend a lot of time with them, mostly middle-aged women who are single, telling me exactly about the skills they were looking for. And so listen, I've got a cheat sheet for younger

Starting point is 00:03:53 men and older men that I hope to share with you today on how we can just learn how to share our experience in a way that's emotionally connecting, which is so key, especially for I think many of your listeners. Yeah. Thank you, Dr. Gregg, because I'm glad you mentioned your Psychology today piece on the rise of lonely single men you received a lot of backlash from from men on that piece why all the anger and yeah i mean that when i i you know i stopped reading my emails coming in from psychology today for maybe a month and then i went back to it that was the advice that friends gave me um because i started receiving really nasty kind of threatening messages from men, mostly lonely and single men, which is not surprising because I was

Starting point is 00:04:51 speaking hopefully to them to invite them out of their pain and suffering of feeling lonely and feeling sad and to a recognition that it's not forever if we can actually think of ourselves as growing and learning new ways of loving on each other, especially whoever it is that we want to try to level on. Yeah, that's my thought. I don't know. Help me. We could continue that thought in some other way. That was it. No, it was just interesting that that was the response from some men, obviously. And it struck a chord with them because it probably shook their own internal dialogue. Their internal voice was speaking, but it really was perhaps maybe more of a projection of what was going on for them and the frustrations that they

Starting point is 00:05:41 are probably experiencing in this particular space and context so yeah there's one there was you know one thing i'll just mention because i'm learning dr susie as i venture into this public sphere of body gas and whatever else that there's a lot of suffering i mean there really are i mean i there's a lot of with so just think about dating these days i don't know if your listeners are dating what they're doing but if you think about dating these days and if you think about how we actually meet each other if they jump on a dating app if you're a heterosexual see if you're a heterosexual man right now listening to this and you're single you're trying to date and you're on a dating app you're competing you thought a competition was fierce in the past gentlemen

Starting point is 00:06:21 competition is a whole new level today and it requires what we might call soft skills i would call core relationship skills uh hopefully we can talk about today as well yes well that's a beautiful segue into the relationship skills so what relationship skills are men struggling with that make it difficult for them to connect with someone romantically whether that's on a dating app or otherwise yeah it's funny i was just talking i'm on tiktok like every day i basically live stream on tiktok at a better love project um and i was talking to some audience members yesterday about this. And I said, you know, I really wish that more men would listen to me. And she said, I wish more men would listen, period. And so let me jump off from that place

Starting point is 00:07:12 and say the core relationship skill that I really, like literally this would transform all of our lives today if we started to master the skill. And I recently wrote about it again on psychology today in another context but the skill is this listening to seek understanding and emotionally validate now the first part a lot of people get and they probably do well like they can communicate to their partner after partner says they had a bad day blah blah they say oh yeah yeah okay sounds like you had a bad day but to be able to emotionally validate is the key skill that all of us struggle with but especially men because as a guy who grew up in a traditional portuguese home with very traditional gender roles and stare you know expectations

Starting point is 00:08:07 i could tell you it's not something we learn how to do when we're kids and that's what it comes down to it's like how are we learning what relationships are in the first place dr c like that's and how do we do it and how do we go about it and how do we feel connected and if you want to have sex eventually i think you talk about sex on this podcast yes we do okay i think probably a while yeah so if you want to have sex eventually and have immersive beautiful passionate sex then you definitely want to just start from the very beginning with this emotional connection and validation stuff yeah so how does what are some practical strategies of demonstrating or modeling what that looks like? Yeah, I think the best thing that anyone can do is start with a

Starting point is 00:08:53 stress-reducing conversation, which comes from the Gottman Method. Now, Drs. John and Julie Gottman have been married for over 35 years. Their legacy of love, Dr. Susan, you probably already know this, but their legacy of love will be their method that they taught me and thousands of other clinicians all around the world, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and States primarily, how to like actually just connect on a daily basis in practical ways. The stress reducing conversation is exactly that. It's three questions. Let me, can I, can I go into it? Yes. Oh, we, I love you too. Okay. The three questions. This is beautiful. So I would invite everyone who's listening to this

Starting point is 00:09:34 right now, if they're in a relationship, think about doing this today. If they're thinking about getting in a relationship just think about like oh these are the things that i want to be curious about on a daily basis about my partner's internal world and so these are the three questions so we are and you can start with sweet our love habib to whatever your whatever the thing is and look into their eyes and ask them what was the most stressful part of your day today and listen after you hear them tell you what the most stressful part of the day is ask them at least one clarifying question. Tell me more about that part. After you really understand, then tell them what you think you understand. Like, oh yeah, that, that sounds really stressful. Your boss, you know what they

Starting point is 00:10:18 said and then validate. Here's the emotional validation. And this is the cheat sheet. You literally just have to say these words. Okay. So we are, that makes sense to me. I get it. you know that makes sense to me that you feel that way okay that single thing if you say that and mean it because you can connect to it emotionally because oh wow it is stressful what my partners told me they had to deal with today with their boss then your validation of them will release all sorts of bonding beautiful bonding neurochemicals and all sorts of other things hopefully you're touching each other maybe cuddling when you're doing this kind of thing that would be even better would be at the end of the night that's question number one then the other

Starting point is 00:11:04 two questions are what are you most grateful for today sweetheart whatever and then the third question is what are you looking forward to tomorrow so that is a very simple way to not only update what the Gottmans call love maps which is our in our understanding of our partners in but also to share a bunch of validation like in a ritualistic way and that is the point it comes down to ritual meaning and the culture of our relationship and if we build in a daily ritual of stress-reducing conversation where we're like soothing each other with our validation then like everybody wins everybody's happier men are happier in that situation yeah yes and i i appreciate you saying what struck me in that is and you mean it because i

Starting point is 00:11:54 i can imagine that a lot of us and including myself we love scripts right or like okay i'm going to follow this to the t i'm going to say it exactly like dr greg said it and be inauthentic and that i in your i don't know when you're in your experience but in my experience you can tell when someone's just reading a script in their mind yeah they're faking it they're like i don't really care but i'm going to ask these questions it's the authenticity and the and being genuine in that dialogue that really comes across you can fumble with these questions and that wouldn't really matter what matters is that you're present and authentic and genuine and that you really care to understand the other person oh yeah absolutely that starts with intention i think

Starting point is 00:12:41 actually it may seem complicated for us folks who maybe didn't grow up with like knowing how to do this because maybe like our parent or parents like didn't communicate with us this way when we were stressed out or whatever whatever it is uh and that's okay or maybe we didn't have guy friends for instance now i've had a guy friend since seventh grade who i've been able to learn that you can actually have these kind of meaningful deep emotionally connected vulnerable intimate relationships with friends and family, right? And we don't just have to rely on our romantic partners for all our emotional needs, gentlemen. Actually, that'll wear them the fuck out. So don't do that. Wise advice. Yeah. And anyway, those are my thoughts.

Starting point is 00:13:31 No, we appreciate it because it then leads me into this question about, so what can men do then since since it seems like dating apps are the future and the now of how people are connecting with each other especially through social media platforms and and otherwise what can men do to improve their chances of connecting with someone and to improve their dating game so to speak i hate calling it a game but yeah yeah it is it's a numbers game that is that it is like statistical numbers game um so the first thing i'm going to say is just like for anybody who's out there single i've been single for a minute you know what i mean by the way just so your audience understands i am a board certified couple and family psychologist

Starting point is 00:14:24 i'm an expert in the field of couples therapy i've been married divorced i'm single and dating right now we all go through our own experience in life and we should in every instance start from a place of self-love and self-worth right when we come from a place like that we start to date then we can just be ourselves number one we can be less anxious if we're like okay if i want someone like for instance i would like someone to marry eventually okay and have children with so if i want that then let me not show up to my first date thinking i have to accomplish something let me show up in an initial message on a dating app right or an initial phone call or initial date or whatever let me think about this as an opportunity to be myself and show up as myself

Starting point is 00:15:14 because i want someone to fall in love with me as i actually am and so hopefully that takes a little pressure off anyone who's dating right now just to say like okay first of all be myself second of all if i don't have any game go see someone like dr greg in for therapy or someone like you or just actually reach out to a friend so so the biggest hurdle that men have because i am a man and i studied masculinity for my doctoral research the biggest hurdle we have is this vulnerability vulnerability thing and it sucks it's ridiculous actually it's fucking ridiculous gentlemen uh when we look at ourselves and we think like a sergeant in the marine corps and follow the fourth leadership principle which suggests that we always seek self-improvement

Starting point is 00:16:03 then we could do nothing but grow in our ability to in these soft skills so let me give something very concrete okay if you're on if you're a man don't go on bumble you're gonna take i don't i don't know if there's any men who have success in bumble uh i would say if you're a middle-aged man go on hinge if you're a younger man go on tinder there are many apps that you can go on they all function differently let me give a very concrete a soft skill though we're talking about an initial contact with somebody and you know if you're not walking up to somebody at the bar if you're not right right it's not traditional anymore it literally is if you're not like super you know hot attract you know a 10 out of 10 whatever even if you are it doesn't matter actually by the way

Starting point is 00:16:48 It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you're super hot. You've got to have to be able to actually emotionally connect with a woman. I'm talking about heterosexual relations right now because I know that's right. Very quickly because of two things. Not only is there a lot of fucking people, but there are a lot of men who are making that attempt. And what is happening is that women are becoming overwhelmed very quickly. they're adopting what in the research we i'm reading about it's called reject mindset

Starting point is 00:17:18 and all of a sudden it's like ah so you better really pull it off in the first impression that's all i'm saying and you can that's a lot of pressure i know but on hinge let me give a very specific example hinge hopefully you can sponsor either dr suzy or me at some point um but on hinge for instance think about the prompts right there are prompts that go with your pictures or videos and hinge actually think about the prompt if a woman or a man you know if you're reaching out to me or it's on hinge well i'm a wrench then actually think about the prompt and try to be a little clever maybe and and and actually say something you know say something like i don't know i wish i had a very specific example right now but you know use maybe an emoji with the hearts and

Starting point is 00:18:05 something clever and witty that's all i'm saying you can't just like a picture and these small details matter if you're dating right now right so putting in a little bit of that extra effort to be more intentional it sounds like yes exactly when trying to make these connections because it it sounds like that really does come across uh as very meaningful you know in those absolutely quick engagements um and that does sound like so much pressure just so much pressure right like it and so if if a guy's struggling with being themselves for example you had meant like like be yourself yeah but that can be really challenging for anyone not just not just men right it's hard for me too like you know what does that mean to be myself and especially if

Starting point is 00:18:58 i'm dealing with chronic illness or um or sexual pain or sexual dysfunction yeah what what are your thoughts on that how do how do we navigate that context and those spaces within experiences yeah i mean the first thing that comes to my mind is non-anxiety you know what i mean and you know this because you're a certified sex educator is that correct uh counselor and educator yeah as a casual educator cheers to you i i listen folks if you can meet somebody like Dr. Susie, please do, because it really is, if I may just take a second to say this, it really is difficult to connect with providers who actually took the time to get certified, to understand what it is that they're communicating to you. So she, she's trustworthy

Starting point is 00:19:46 in my book. What was the question? Oh yeah. But not anxiety, not anxiety. Let me get to that point. as men we often see let me say things that you probably have said a million times on the show I apologize in advance if your listeners have already heard you say this but that as men we we do a couple things first of all we we suck at vulnerability which is the thing you need the most for an immersive sexual experience especially if your mind is your attention and focus is going to your body or pain or the da da and anxiety concerned about whatever right the response of our partner and all the things and if anybody has ever tried to have sex when you're in your head it's not going to be as pleasurable or as immersive or as um fun

Starting point is 00:20:35 as if you're just in the moment and present and all those things and that takes i would say work beforehand. And so if you've started, so let's, I'm going to imagine some, one of your audience members and like, and let's say that person's actually in a relationship, right? So they're actually like, they've already done the legwork. I hope my friends that you've done the legwork to build an emotional connection with your partner where you feel safe with them and that you're in a secure attachment and that everything's going to be okay. And all these things, I'm not talking about the pressure situation of dating. So I don't know, I don't have a solution for you but down the line yeah yeah yeah i don't have a solution for that but

Starting point is 00:21:17 down the line if you actually are in a relationship with somebody i think the point of this is going back to what does that mean to be myself in this moment it's to recognize that my body is always changing so regardless if i have chronic like a pelvic pain or anything else my body is always changing i have to have compassion for my body and whatever it's doing and especially if it's chronic it's not going to go away especially if that's the case and i have to invest in a kindness to myself but also a non-anxiety to see that sex is not performative although that that was the second point by the way men vulnerability issue performance issue like what the fuck when did sex become a performance did we think we were filming a porn like right what is

Starting point is 00:22:07 what is going on this is sex is actually if i can make a cultural statement here about a cultural viewpoint that sex we have been limited by our view of sex for so long and it's especially important for people who have these little uniqueness these unique variables to their sexual experience like pain but here's the deal folks why don't we just see it as a way to actually emotionally connect in a routine ritualistic way with our partner versus some kind of fucking performance versus you know how many times a week do i want to orgasm like let's actually think about it as a way of like routinely by the way and i have all my clients have sex as much as they want you know because it has like it's part of the deal it's part of a fierce healthy

Starting point is 00:22:56 love unless you're asexual you're it's it's all it's all good if you're asexual but otherwise it's part of a healthy passion love so my advice is what you probably shared with your audience often which is no performance take the fucking performance out of it gets your physiological arousal down way before and work on your emotional connection outside of the bedroom or wherever you like to have sex exactly exactly because so often it's very mechanistic as far as sexual performance you know for penis owners particularly as far as you know there's a performance there's a mechanical part to this and these theatrics and this is my role and often that is dictating their sexual identity of whether or not or how their penis functions or looks or appears and

Starting point is 00:23:46 it's um it really does rob someone from their from their absorbing in their experience of pleasure Pleasure is what it's, I mean, really, like if you want to meet somebody, what's the end game? It's like, let's have some kind of maybe soul bond or connection, right? So like a meaningful connection. But with somebody that you want to have pleasurable existence with, including sexual intimacy and all those things, for sure. I agree a thousand percent. Thank you, Dr. Gregg. That was really just so enlightening and also hopeful as far as the listeners and viewers who are with us watching this episode is that what I'm hearing is that there's all this unnecessary expectation and pressure that is placed. You know, certainly with negative messaging, relational messaging, sexual messaging, and these narratives that we often follow and implicit rules that we have for ourselves that create so much friction when it's not working out the way we think, according to these internal dialogues and rules and all that jazz. that's where all the stress right then comes from right yeah which physiologically impacts your your chemistry your biological chemistry uh and and sexual functioning and experience of pleasure and and pain to for that matter because if there's a threat anytime there's more of a threat than safety or you're not feeling like you can trust your partner or that your partner has

Starting point is 00:25:26 your back no matter what and that dials up all these protective systems including feelings right emotions like anxiety and fear and frustration and avoidance and you know all of that so safety cues safety cues safety cues i say that very often what are the safety cues dr suzy well one of them being like trust you know trusting trust can can you trust your partner can you trust your partner enough that if you're struggling with something mentally physically that you can turn to them as turn to them turn to them please to them yes oh and and not feel like you have to navigate something alone um often you want to do that exactly your clients actually want i don't think i don't think our clients actually want to do that but they do get stuck in this they do yeah

Starting point is 00:26:15 yeah these stories about what they're allowed to do or talk about or whatever or with whom or you know or being afraid of being found out that there's that they they quote unquote are broken or there's something wrong especially if there's sexual difficulty unpredictability sexual pain yeah it's it's it can be very challenging complex uh experiences to navigate especially as you're saying dr greg these communication skills these skills to lean into vulnerability to use vulnerability as a strength and not a weakness has not been taught or rather these messages are not as prevalent in our society except for when we're talking about it now right we're doing it we're doing the work yes we are we are absolutely wait can i share a really quick yes we'll uh call

Starting point is 00:27:09 gentle startup it's called gentle startup or soften startup and i think it's it gets out a little bit of what you're talking about is like how do you how do you bring up something because at the end of the day we want to be with somebody right that we can feel that we trust like okay we get this issue so bring something up here it is here's the formula let me give you a formula and i don't care if you actually sound like a robot when you do it the first time as long by like the 20th time you do this you've it's improvisational that that usually that's what i tell my clients use the formula until it becomes improvisational but here it is i feel about i need want or prefer i feel about i need want prefer uh i feel sad that i didn't get a hug this morning i want a hug now

Starting point is 00:28:00 can i have i guess you get the hug so what is what's the element of that is you start with i feel and that primes our our partner's mirror neurons to get clicked into whatever our emotional experience is and then we want to actually use our face gentlemen okay we want to move our face in a way that expresses some kind of emotion and we if it's sadness we can make sad faces we whatever right we want to feel comfortable expressing so that our partner we could practice and then we can right and we say i feel sad okay cute end about something specific the hug and i need a positive need what is it that you're looking for and that's really all we want to do communicate what our needs are uh hi oh good then our partner can just give it to us

Starting point is 00:28:46 so i need to have a conversation about something that's going on with our sexual experience i need to whatever it is whatever that bid is to open up a conversation to make sure that You're not alone, like you said, Dr. Susie, with any experience in a healthy, fierce love. Words of wisdom right there. And so appreciate the practical strategies. Really, this show is packed with that. You know, how do you, you know, improve your skills, your communication skills, your relational skills?

Starting point is 00:29:20 This is it, folks. It's putting these strategies into practice. And it's certainly going to be challenging. it's not easy right dr greg to if you've never had practice or not easy at all and it's okay and we're learning and it's not like a you know i i you know maybe it was it's a strong thing to say a deficit it's a clinical term we use in the field but but you know at the end of the day it's an opportunity to grow and to live our lives more fully because we're only here for a little bit That's right. That's so true. Right. Be intentional. Be in the moment. Make every moment count and let it be meaningful. Thank you, Dr. Greg. This was really inspirational. I so appreciate you being on the show. If our listeners and viewers wanted to connect with you, tell us about where we can find you.

Starting point is 00:30:11 yeah absolutely your listeners can go check us out at abetterloveproject.org or they can find us on tiktok and instagram and everywhere else at abetterloveproject.org that that's my 501c3 charity we're helping people love each other more fiercely yeah oh let's do it love thank you dr greg and to all our listeners and viewers out there thank you for being here with us as always and loving wellness for your pelvis this is dr susie g thanks for listening to today's episode. Be sure to visit my website drsusieg.com for show notes and related resources on today's topic. If you like what you're hearing, head on over to YouTube and subscribe to my channel. On my YouTube channel, you'll find content related to sex, pelvic health, and expert interviews for

Starting point is 00:31:02 men if you got a question or a topic that you'd like me to answer on my channel be sure to type it in the comment box below

In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G - 3 habits for a successful date after matching on an app

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