In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G - Acupuncture for erectile dysfunction

Episode Date: January 13, 2020

Need help getting your penis to stand at attention? Let's turn that frown upside down because there are lots you can do to improve your sexual health and function like diet, exercise, flexing your sex (ahem, pelvic floor exercises), sex toys, medications, and acupuncture. Yup, acupuncture, who knew?! On today's show, I chat with licensed acupuncturist, Danielle Brunner, who tells us what acupuncture is and what it's not, how it can help with your erections, and what you should expect during treatment (wipe the sweat off your faces guys, no needles go near your prized parts, phew!) Hope you enjoy the show!

You're listening to In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G, the physiotherapist for your private, helping you get in the know down below. All right, welcome everyone. Thank you so much for being on the In Your Pants podcast episode with me. Today we are talking about acupuncture, but particularly how acupuncture can be helpful for erectile dysfunction. And on the show to help me explain that is acupuncturist Danielle Bruner, who is the owner of Attunement Wellness. She's a licensed acupuncturist, certified also in neuro-emotional

technique, and she's licensed by the Oregon Medical Board. She graduated with a master's degree in acupuncture and oriental medicine from Oregon College of Oriental Medicine. Danielle has developed a very special and, in fact, revolutionary innovative treatment protocol for erectile dysfunction. In as little as two to three months, men experience a return of their natural energy, higher libido, and increase in erection quality and strength. Oh my gosh, not to mention probably all the other collateral benefits that we'll be talking about on our show. But this holistic treatment benefits men by avoiding the side effects of the little blue pill, which we'll be talking about, and not to mention the effects that it can have on

their wallets. Yes, that pill is very expensive. So without further ado, let's get to it. Danielle, welcome to the show. Thank you, Dr. Susie. I love your show and I'm so grateful to be here today. Awesome. So before we dive into the science and the ins and outs of how you work with your clients with ED using acupuncture, I'm curious, and I'm sure our listeners are curious, how did you get into working with men and erectile dysfunction? Yeah, no, it's a good question. I get asked often. So while I was in grad school, I got invited to work with my teacher who's Chinese and her specialty is fertility. So women's health. And in grad school, we particularly study gynecology. There's not a lot of men's health information out there. So if you know

the female body and the male body, as you do, the points are the same. So the channels are the same. The energy meridians are the same. The human body is the human body. So I just, I had a few patients come to me and they just mentioned, oh, I also have ED with a long string of other things. And so I thought, well, we could try this. And I did obviously get my books out and start reading up on some things and particularly about ED and just took it from there. And I was actually pleasantly surprised. I mean, the feedback I got was shocking. Wow. And so what I'm hearing you say is that men actually were expressing their concerns to you about their issues down there, which is pretty hard for not, no pun intended. It's difficult for, for men to really come out

to say that to a healthcare professional. I mean, I know healthcare professionals general are not really asking about sexual questions, whether that's for a male or female, but, but people are not always talking about it either. And so that's how awesome is that, that they had the courage to kind of say, Hey, do you think you can help me with that down there? Yeah. And actually it's on my intake. So that's kind of what starts the conversation. So if you are an acupuncturist listening, I'd say add it to your intake, especially also premature ejaculation. So when we go there, we, I don't really have any problem talking about that because we ask a lot of invasive questions as acupuncturists. We ask about your poo and we're asking about

your urination and whatnot. So it all is connected. That's awesome. Well, that's great. And what great advice for other practitioners out there. Just ask the questions. You don't know how you can change somebody's life by just asking them the right questions. So, so how does actually, let's just kind of get the basics of how acupuncture works before we connect it to how the treatment might work for ED. Sure. Yeah. So I came up with this in grad school and I thought it was kind of funny. And so I just stuck with it, but being from Portland, Oregon, we've got a lot of mountains and trees and rivers and whatnot here. So, and a lot of fishermen. So I would say to men, you know, I give them this whole education the very first session. And that's why I spend a good 75 minutes

with the patient. And I explain the energy meridians head to toe as if they were rivers. So think about you've got these rivers flowing head to toe of what we call chi or life force energy or prana, whatever word you want to use. And over time, as we age, there's stagnation or there's chi deficiency. And so think of it as a dam in the river, it's blocked. And so what I'm doing with these tiny little hair-like needles is inserting them into the acupuncture point and stimulating the needle a certain way as we do. And it breaks the qi flow or it actually can tonify and build the qi. And so essentially what we're doing is bring qi, it travels through body fluids and blood. We're bringing that all to the pelvis, which is very similar for fertility,

like for women to make a baby, right? You need qi, you need blood to come to the pelvis. Right, right. Oh, that's so awesome. And it sounds like you're through this process of connecting with that person, listening to their story, and then using a treatment protocol based on thousands of years of Chinese medicine. But how that influences that person's nervous system. You know, like it's that we're all electrical beings and emitting electrical energy all the time um and so through what you do you're essentially tapping into that person's nervous system it sounds like and like really helping them yeah and i also want to make i want to clarify something because this question does come up a lot is do we put needles in the nerve

absolutely not that's why the the treatment that's why the education is four years a master's degree we are trained specifically on avoiding the nervous system you do not want a needle in your nerve at all. So these energy meridians are actually traveling near the nervous system, but not in the nervous system, not on the nerves, right? So each point is particularly measured and that is the training. It's hardcore training. So I would definitely make sure if you're ever working with an acupuncturist that they are licensed, hopefully. It is the law. And NCCAOM certified is another certification that is important. Okay. So definitely get together with someone who is experienced and has the credentials and

knows how to help you. Thank you for clarifying that. Thank you so much. Okay. And so you touched, you kind of were going to go into how it like helps with pelvic health and you touched based on women's fertility and how it works with that, but it's similar to for male. How in your experience with acupuncture, how is it really helping with ED? What are some of the changes? What are you stimulating to help that process? Yeah. So I, um, I'll get into that, but first I also want to explain about how, you know, how do you talk to a patient also? So for men out there, I'm not getting into the business of sex, right? So some, they do like to tell me their stories and I usually stop them and say, okay, we're not here to talk about your sex life or what

happened last night. Um, and they also feel uncomfortable, right? So they, they don't really want to tell their whole story of what happened last night and no, I didn't get an erection and this is what happened and all that. It's, it's, it's not relevant to my, what, what's happening with the treatment. But what I want to know, this is how I developed it was on a percentage. Where are you today? And so that they're responsible for every week that they come in. Cause it is the protocol. It is a commitment weekly because each acupuncture treatment works off the last treatment. And sometimes if we wait a few weeks before they come in, we have to start all over. right? So that's why I developed this whole two to three month protocol. And I asked them, okay,

where are we today when we first start? And I start with 50% being that you can get an erection and you can penetrate vaginally, but maybe you're not sustaining the erection. And that's usually a good measurement, right? And I've had people say 0%. I've had one guy that said in seven years, he had 0% erection. Okay. And we'll get into that a little later too, but we start there and then every week we're progressing. So that, that helps me determine are the points working? Do I need to change things a little bit? And the diagnosis, by the way, for every acupuncturist out there, they should be taking your pulse and looking at your tongue. And the reason that we do that is I like to describe it as I'm painting a picture. So what is the tapestry, the art look

like in this person's body? And what I mean by that is what is the qi like in Jerry's body? Let's just use a name out there, okay? And we use words like, is it wiry? Is it slippery? Is it choppy? And that is a determining factor. And then also the tongue has all the organs pre-mapped out on the tongue. So I can see if that person's spleen is qi deficient. That's a term that we use in Chinese medicine. Or if there's liver qi stagnation, meaning that there's a block in the liver channel. and those will help me determine which points to use. And then I'm getting feedback from the patient. So when they're coming back every week, they can tell me how many morning erections are they getting? Has it increased? That's usually the first thing that happens after about treatment

three or four, then they start having morning erections regularly. And maybe this guy hasn't had an erection in the morning for years. So that's a huge thing, right? Maybe their urination has changed. Maybe the dribbling has stopped or the profuse, you know, a lot at one time has stopped or they're not getting up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. Those are all little incremental changes that gives me feedback. So we know we're on the right track. I just keep doing what we're doing. We may add herbs. I usually don't like to add herbs until about three or four treatments if they need herbs, because I want to see if the acupuncture is working. So there's a lot of information there. And then also I do what's called electrical

stimulation, which is we connect the, it's kind of like a TENS machine and we connect the wires to the needles actually. So that gives a pulsation and helps break open that dam if we need to in the energy meridian. Okay. So I kind of went around your question. No, you did. No, you're totally fine. No, you totally answered the question about how acupuncture can help with essentially, you know, ED. You went through the process and then you went through how you kind of evaluate and reassess. And it sounds like it's a building of from the first session, the second session, in the third session, you're kind of working with that person's body and, and of course, everything they bring to the table, but that's, you know, you've totally answered that. So thank

you so much for that. You mentioned, well, off the, before we started recording, we were talking about testosterone and I'd like to get, you know, your feedback on, okay, well, does acupuncture work for everyone? And what are some other contributing factors that might be coming into play when it comes to sexual dysfunction? Yeah. Okay. So a lot of questions. I'm going to try to stay on track with it. So I've been doing this for five years and I just kind of, I recorded cases. And so that's why I use that measurement tool percentage. And what I found is I could count on one hand of people that it did not actually work for, that I was just stumped. Like, I don't know. And I'm not there. I make this very clear to my patients. I'm not there

to take your money. Like if it's not working, I'm not going to continue the treatment, right? So I usually refer them to someone else. And typically I will refer them to our naturopath in our office for further evaluation. And what I want to see is testosterone. And typically when it doesn't work, testosterone is very low. And they haven't probably had checked their testosterone in maybe ever or 20 years or something like that. Even young guys. So I do get a lot of late twenties, thirties, I'm starting to get, see more and more of that. And, um, they've never had their testosterone checked. So yeah, it's not something typically that a medical doctor will do unless they're asked. Right. Exactly. Right. And, and the reference ranges are just so

broad that it's always usually just helpful, um, to, to compare it to your own normal. Cause we, we were also talking about like how someone could have, you know, lower testosterone levels, but be completely fine, you know, and, and have just fine sexual function of their penis. Uh, and others have very low or also have very high testosterone, but have issues. Um, so it's, it's all about that, that whole, you know, taking into consideration the individual and their, their symptoms and their lifestyle and everything to kind of put, to paint that picture, as you said earlier. Yeah. And also just to clarify, um, once they get their testosterone checked and if it is too low and their doctors put them on some type of supplementation, you need the treatments.

And then of course it's, it's fine. Everything works great. Um, and so I just want to be clear that it isn't just, just like you said, it isn't just testosterone. We need to get the, we need, I mean, the penis is blood filled, right? When it's erect. So we need blood to get there. And if it's not moving in that area, as you know, working pelvic health, there's a lot of moving parts down there that are really intricate and we're just opening it up. So I think acupuncture and holistic pelvic care goes wonderful together. Like I love that. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And as you're saying, it's like everything is connected and the more that person understands how everything is connected, it's less of an alarming thing because once bitten twice shy,

I always say like, if it happens once you're, you know, it's, it's really easy for you to think like, oh my gosh, I'm going to worry. Is it going to happen again? Like, and again and again. So you're constantly worried. And then now you're dealing with, you know, the nervous system and the psychological aspects of erectile dysfunction. You know, there's a psychogenic component. I find it hard to believe that there isn't a psychogenic component whenever that happens, because it is a change in a function of your body that you did not necessarily have voluntary control over. And whenever that happens, it just freaks, you know, you, you have the brakes on and you're like, what's going on? Is it not working? And so, yes, I think taking more of

that, like, let's take a wider lens approach. Let's look at all the contributing factors to why this might be happening. And Danny, you mentioned this really great. You're like, it's not just testosterone, but it's everything else. What do you, you know, what's your lifestyle like? Are you sedentary? Are you exercising? What's your diet like? You know, a lot of these things can be very preventative. I don't want to say all the time, but it can be preventative if we start early. Yeah, exactly. And not even, and it's funny because I do get a lot of men in their sixties and seventies even, and they care about their penis. They want it to work, which is always shocking. I'm like, okay, there's so many other things are going on here. Like

diabetes. And I have had, I'll give you an instance. Like, yeah, I had a guy that was basically he when he called he said can do wheelchair access and I said yeah you can come it's just you know one level but he came in on these huge boots and a cane and could barely walk and so we got him to 100 which was amazing and um I also helped his diabetes so he was not walking he was walking without a cane and no boots by the end of the 12th treatment that's amazing yeah wow I'm sure he owes you his life they're always great stories I love it yeah don't totally totally um so on that so we went from testosterone other factors but cycling so so this we were talking also off the air about cycling and what are the ramifications of cycling because you've experienced

this as well in a recent case do you want to describe that case for us yeah so a chiropractor friend recommended i see this patient so he called me up and he was explaining that he gets numb after triathlons and part of that cycling part i'm not a triathlon i'm not a cyclist. I don't, I don't know that piece and I don't have a penis. So I don't know about all of that, how that works. But, um, yeah, so he was usually he says two weeks, he's numb this particular time. He was numb for about six weeks. And so nothing was happening down there. And, um, there is a point that sometimes we have to use, it's called conception vessel one, and it's in the perineum and on his first, I don't like to use that on the first treatment

because it isn't, you know, it's, you have to explain it. If they've never had acupuncture, especially, it's a little, you know, like what the heck you're going to put a needle down there, which by the way, we should talk about that. There is no needles in the genitals. Less, thank you. Oh my God. I forgot about that. Yeah. Most people do think about there must be needles in my penis, but no, nothing like that. There's no channels actually on the, on the penis or vagina. So there's, yeah. But going back to that case, it was five treatments and we did that point. And he told me that he felt like he was, he was 15, he was 47 years old. And we didn't, after that, I said, go tell your friends and, you know, tell your cyclist friends, right? Because

as a female, we're telling everybody if something works. And I, that was the one thing I was shocked about. Like nobody refers because they're not talking about their own case. No, they're not saying, Hey, what's going on with your penis today? Yeah. How's it going, Bob? You know, right. That's not a typical thing that happens. And we should normalize these things as you're saying. Like, let's talk about it because you don't know who else is experiencing the same thing, but perhaps living in isolation and fear, thinking they're the only ones dealing with this issue and they're going to have to live like that for the rest of their life. And prevention is, is, is great. I mean, like, you know, we mentioned cycling, a triathlon, you're biking for miles. I

mean, I don't know the exact number, but it's a triathlon. So I know it's a big deal. It's like a marathon and yeah, it is common for cyclists to experience what we would call saddle paresthesia. or numbness or tingling to that area. And, you know, there are nerves that travel underneath your sit bones and, and, and branch out and go to, to your penis and they communicate with your spinal cord. And then that goes up to your brain. And so there's whole connection, but they have to run through tunnels and they have to run through connective tissue and muscle and around bone. And sometimes they get cranky, you know, when blood flow is altered to that area, or when there's no, um, a non-relaxing pelvic muscle issue happening, um, that could contribute

to the overall cranky nerve syndrome. Thank you, Diane Jacobs for that, um, that term. Uh, but anyway, yeah, cranky nerve syndrome. So that can happen and it's totally treatable. You know, the sooner that you address the issues happening down in the nether regions, the more successful you'll be with the treatment outcome. Yeah. And I just want to also say that I heard about pelvic health through two male patients that told me that they do it. I mean, I knew that they do it for women, that you do it for women, but I had no idea that pelvic health existed for men and that they go in anally. I mean, I've had some, I mean, I wasn't even putting it together, right? So I just commend you with what you do too. It's amazing work. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. We're

stronger in numbers, right? Like it's, it's just, how can we help the person in front of us? And sometimes the tools we have in our toolbox are not what that person needs. And so it's really helpful to have a network of wellness providers and team, a team to help support that person through their health journey. And I'm such an advocate of that. It's just like, you know, an abundance. We're all in it together. Let's help this person. It's not my agenda. It's their agenda. And if I can't serve them in the way that I know how, then I should at least make an effort to reach out to someone who can. So, um, any who, but, um, but yeah, no, that's great yumminess. And one more thing about the cycling that I just wanted to mention for our fellows out there is

that, you know, there might be a correlation with, um, sexual dysfunction and, and pain maybe, but not always, you know, not everyone who cycles has issues. Um, it is an individualized case by case situation. And so making sure that the person you're working with is really taking that look and individualizing that treatment plan for you. So no, cycling is not bad. It's just be aware that if you are feeling tingling and numbness, maybe you do some stretches and some recovery strategies to help improve blood flow back to the tissues after a prolonged time of compression on those nerves. And like I said, they get cranky, but they're totally treatable. And the sooner that you can talk about the issues going down in your pants, the better. All right. That was my

disclaimer. Cool. So awesome. So Danny, tell us about other patient cases, particularly with ED. I would love to hear experiences. Oh yeah. So I had one that was, he fractured his penis. Didn't tell me how. Oh, he didn't tell you how. Okay. Yeah. He's 36 years old and he got it. He had to go to the ER and what he described to me was a botched job surgery. So I'm only assuming that nerves were severed. So when he first called me, I was honest. And I do this, by the way, with every patient. I say, I don't know if this is going to work for you. Okay. But we're going to try it and I'll do what I know is best. And if it, you know, we'll just see what happens. So anyway, he came, I think it started, he started twice a week and then we tapered off, but it was

10 treatments and he was back to a hundred percent. And by the way, I don't hear back from these guys. It's so funny. Like I just had a couple people come back to me after three years. So I'm assuming, and the reports have always been that they didn't have any problems in that time of their way. So yeah, it's six, I guess. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. It was cool. Cool beans. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And yes, fracturing the penis. It sounds scary, but there's no muscle. There's no, there's no bone in your penis. It's it's it's yeah. You can, there's a lot of ligaments that to spend the penis and sometimes when that often it's with like a sexcapade gone wrong or something um there is an audible pop or you know there can be but that that can happen to any part of her

body it has a tendon that attaches to bone or muscle if you strain it or sprain it you know that ligament so that does happen and yes sometimes surgical intervention is necessary but it also heals on its on its own as well um i'm sure it's not a very um pleasant experience needless to say i can only imagine yeah yeah yeah yeah but i've had a few other like uh most recently it's been anxiety and emotional like you mentioned that the site the mental emotional part and i in your bio or when you introduced me you said then and the near emotional technique which is NET, if anybody else knows about that. And that is based off Chinese medicine. And so sometimes there is stuff that's happening that's mental, emotional. And in this case, this person is in

their thirties. And I asked about stress and he said, on a scale of one to 10, I said, I ask everyone, where are you in stress? And he said, I'm about a one out of 10, but when it comes to my erection, I'm about nine out of 10. And I said, oh, interesting. So he thinks about it all the time and sexually active with his partner four to five times a week. And the whole story and inner critic is going on in his head of, is this going to work or not? Right. So that's hard. And that no point intended that that will definitely affect things going on down there because our brains are so powerful. Right. And so in Chinese medicine, this system that I learned, which by the way, I don't try anything in my practice unless I've tried it myself, but all the meridians

are connected on the brain so you're integrating three things muscle testing activating the acupressure point on the torso by me touching that point muscle testing and then what we call verbal semantics and so generally in life there's two things that are stressful money and love and so we go through where is it attached and one thing an important factor i did not mention was that every meridian is connected to an organ and it's also connected to an emotion and it's connected to an element. So for instance, the liver channel is, the element is wood. It's partnered with the gallbladder. So then yin yang, if you remember that Taiji symbol, the black and white, that's perfect harmony. And so nobody is in perfect harmony. You have to have equal amounts

of both. So we're checking and the emotion with liver is anger. So long stemmed anger. And what we do is we, by integrating all three modalities, muscle testing, verbal semantics, and activating the acupressure point, we bypass all three brains and we go into the amygdala. So that's where the memory is stored. And the three brains would be fight or flight, logistical neocortex, which is reasoning and thinking, and then your emotional brain. So you don't have time to think about it. And we're actually just kind of bypassing that. We're going right into that original event. Maybe it's a childhood thing that you've actually just lived your whole life in different patterns. And we clear that with acupuncture. And that is a big shift. So sometimes that happens. I have

had a couple of cases where I'm like, you know, they try to treat me like I'm in the counselor now and I'm not licensed as a counselor. So I say, why don't we try this? And that usually creates a shift for them. And then the other thing is that acupuncture, there's a protocol in the ear that I do that helps with anxiety and depression. And so once that, that's usually the first thing that goes away is that they're feeling more calm in their body. They can sleep better. And then we, it dives deeper than the blood and the chi and everything can start going, but your brain's also going to control that. Right. Right. It needs to feel safe. I mean, there has to be a sense of safety for all those processes that are regulated by those, you know,

the rest and digest quote unquote functions, right? The nervous system and then the neural networks of our brain and, um, memories are stored, never forgotten. Sometimes they are, but they're always there and anything can kind of trigger that. And so I'm glad that you brought that up, that whole emotional connection and the physiological response responses and protective responses that can happen in our body. And that can dampen and put the brakes on lots of things, right? All organ systems, including erectile tissue. So absolutely. Um, there's a, cause you mentioned the penile fracture there's a book called broken banana life love and sex without a penis and it's written by ross i hope i don't butcher his last name but as dorian a s d o u r i

a n um it is hilarious he's a comedian but he actually tells a story about penile fracture and what he went through so if anybody's listening or watching um i highly recommend it check it out um, support, you know, like you're not the only one that goes through this. There's so many people that have experienced issues down below. And, um, this is one way of expressing his, you know, reaching out, telling people about it. So that's great. Cool. Well, awesome. So Danny, how can, um, listeners get in touch with you? Can you talk a little bit about your 90 day men's membership program? Sure. Yeah. So I also want to talk a little bit about my clinic. So I have a clinic here in Portland, Oregon, and we have a chiropractor, a naturopath, another

acupuncturist, massage therapy. And so we're kind of an integrated clinic. And what I've wanted to do is run that, really create a place where all practitioners are super happy to work in a place that's dynamic and we all have the same vision. And then I aligned, what I decided was these two patients that came back after three years, they actually asked me, Hey, can we just prepay you? And I said, I guess so. So I was thinking about that, like, what would that look like? And I talked to a couple of doctors. I work with some urologists and whatnot and put it formulating how this would look. And so the 90 day men's membership is simply you buy 10 treatments and you get two free. And so each treatment's $150 and the commitment is 90 days.

So the whole package is 1500 and they're seeing me weekly. They're getting an hour of my attention every week and they're able to relax. Most of the time they're sleeping. These hair like needles are very, it's like putting a piece of hair in your body. And I, a lot of times I hear snoring as I leave the room. So it's nice. A lot of my, a lot of my patients say it's their, their one time to rest and relax and get their nap in. And then the side effects are amazing, right? Because they're getting a hard on. Well, a hard on and all those other collateral benefits that you mentioned, like relaxation. And earlier you mentioned sleeping better. Yeah. And also I think some people do wonder about this as well. I get an erection during the treatment. I've only

had that happen one time with one patient and he was actually quite embarrassed. And obviously he didn't have a problem, so he didn't come back, which was fine. But no, that doesn't really happen. It's, you know, sometimes people report the next morning, the best night of their sleep and a morning erection. And then quality and strength is always what we're talking about. What's the quality and strength of your penis? And where would you say you are today? And gradually it's growing, literally growing. I learned that on your show too, that the length of the penis is inside, right? Yeah. I tell my patients that and they're like, get out. That's not true like yeah you're six inches on the outside you're also six inches on the inside

something like that right is it well a lot of it well again somewhere some are well you know again showers so what you see is what you get that's right this kind of pops up but others are growers where yes you might look smaller on the outside but when you have an erection it's like you know blowing up a balloon essentially and yeah and again everyone's size is so different and there is no norm it's impossible to measure every single man's erect penis on this entire planet um so you know what you have is awesome so just use it that's right um or get help for it if you can't use it and um yeah so yeah yeah cool all right and i'll i'll definitely link so for everyone listening and we're watching, I'll have the Daniel's clinic website link to the show notes

and the 90 day membership and all the information from there. Is there anything else that you'd like to share? Yeah, I just want to thank you again. And just just to clarify about my website. So it is the clinic website. If you go under health issues, you'll see erectile dysfunction and go to that page. And then that talks about the 90 day men's membership. But yeah, I can be reached in Portland at 503-206-0300. And we'd be happy to help you out. I also offer free 20 minute phone consults. So yeah, I think it's important. And I've actually had people show up at my front door thinking it's, it's in person and that's fine too, but sometimes I'm doing it in between patients. So, um, yeah, we'd be happy to help you out and answer any questions.

Oh, well, thank you so much for helping to support men's health. And, um, really again, just taking this revolutionary step and from acu from an acupuncture standpoint like again i've not really heard an acupuncturist really catering and specializing in supporting men in this way so kudos to you thank you and um to all our listeners out there and also again danny thank you so much for apologizing thank you for being on the show thank you thank you appreciate it um but yes to all our listeners i thank you as well thank you for following thank you for watching thank you for supporting. And as always, I'm loving wellness for your pelvis. Until next time, my friends, I'll check you later. Dr. Susie, thank you. I'm so grateful as well. Thank you

for the opportunity. Thanks for listening to today's episode. Be sure to head on over to drsusieg.com where you can get more information, show notes, and related articles on today's topic. Also, if you like what you're hearing, head on over to iTunes, subscribe to the podcast, and leave us a rating and review. We'd love to hear your feedback. Thanks again. No pun intended.