In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G - Finding Joy despite the pain

Episode Date: October 28, 2019

Pain can suck the life outta ya, so how can you still find joy and meaning in life despite pain? This may seem like I'm asking you to climb Mt. Everest but even the most skilled climbers have to start at the base and work their way up to the top (some training is also involved of course). Taking that first step can seem impossible and scary but with the right coach by your side, you'll turn impossible to I'Mpossible. In today's episode, I chat with Devra Joy. Devra is a physical therapist with a board certification in neurology. Her passion is to bring joy back into people's lives through compassion, collaboration and fun. You'll learn ways to pleasure hunt so that you can get back to doing the things in life that are meaningful to you. One baby step at a time...

You're listening to In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G, the physiotherapist for your private, helping you get in the know down below. Hey guys, it's Dr. Susie G here and welcome to another In Your Pants podcast episode. Today we are talking about pain and how it can literally suck the life out of you. so how can you still find joy and meaning in life despite pain this may seem like i'm asking you to climb mount everest but even the most skilled climbers have to start at the base and work their way up to the top and of course some training is involved but it's all about starting somewhere. And taking that first step can seem impossible and scary. But with the right coach

by your side, you'll turn the impossible to I'm possible. To help me pass along this message to you, I've invited Debra Joy. No joke, her last name is Joy. And that is what she spreads to everyone that she comes in contact with, especially her patients. Deborah Joy is a physical therapist with a board certification in neurology. Her passion is to bring joy back into people's lives through compassion, collaboration, and fun. So in this episode, you'll learn ways to go pleasure hunting so that you can get back to doing the things in life that are meaningful to you and that bring you your own personal joy, one baby step at a time. So without further ado, I welcome Debra Joy to the show.

Hey, Debra. Thank you so much for being on the In Your Pants podcast show with me today. Thanks, Susie. I'm really excited to be here to talk about some really important topics. I know. We were getting into it before we started recording, everyone, and I was like, no, let's stop. We need this.

Save it. Yeah, leave it for the recording. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Well, before we get started, Debra, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your passion, because I think this is a really awesome topic that we're going to talk about. Thank you. So I've been a physical therapist for 15 years now, and I live in the neuro world. I've been board certified in neurology for over 10 years now, and neuro I love, but also chronic pain and sensory processing and really like knowledge translation for clinicians and helping clinicians feel confident working with people who hurt. I think we really lose a lot

in that process, right? We go to a course, we try out a thing, it doesn't work. And then, you know, the clinician doesn't feel good or confident in their practice. And then the patient isn't helped. And I think if we reframe things and refocus things for people, we can really, really get a lot of benefit and patients can feel better. So that's really where my focus is. My website is devrajoy.com. Joy is my middle name and finding joy for patients is like so important. That's what we're going to talk about today, but it really is a theme in my life. Oh my gosh. Well, what an appropriate theme. And we need definitely more of that in the world today more than ever and so good segue into joy and finding pleasure because as you said i think

practitioners and people who hurt it alike are looking to for for answers but like just really complex like these fancy tools or fancy techniques or fancy certifications and you know don't get me wrong i am guilty of that too of always searching for that magic bullet that's going to help someone And once you do more of the research, which I'm sure you'll talk about in a second here, but that's not that. It's actually doing the simplest thing, less is more. And so tell me about pleasure and finding joy and how that impacts our neuroplasticity and our nervous system and our brains. 100%. 100%. Well, obviously we have serotonin and dopamine and all of those really important things. And when people hurt,

they stop doing, and they stop doing the like really important high value tasks. Well, you know, often there's depression associated with persisting pain and, you know, all of that kind of just keeps gaining momentum, right? As time marches on. So being able to interrupt that process, I really view persisting pain as a neuroplastic process. It's, I think it's a really helpful model to view persisting pain. And when someone's hurting and the thing that they do all the time is something that perpetuates suffering in whatever capacity that is, then that's what the brain gets more efficient at doing, right? Not that the person wants to hurt, but if that's what the brain is practicing over and over and over again, then that's what it gets

quicker and faster and more efficient at doing. So if we can interrupt that process and practice, I feel good. I can do this. I'm capable. And that's what gets repeated over and over and over again. Then we can shift that neuroplasticity in the direction of feeling better and away from suffering. So I really look at neuroplasticity as a model, not just because the brain is neuroplastic, but you know, repetition matters. And so if, if, if your life and the suffering that's been going on is, you know, in one direction, then we need to start practicing it in a different direction. So that's why I focused so much on finding joy early on in the process with patients, because that's what I want them repeating in their life, in their world,

right? That's what I want their brain practicing, you know, that's what I want them to feel. so that's always the first thing I start with 100% of the time right and even if sometimes it may not feel comfortable in the beginning to get back to doing those things that they once enjoyed and I think Debra you can speak to this but it's hard to find what joy is after having such a long stretch of time where you just don't even remember the last time you felt good in your body or in your life. And so what would be a good starting point for someone to start figuring that out? Really? I mean, so that's a great question. And it's something I get from clinicians, you know, a question I get from clinicians. I always ask the patient, what do

you miss the most, right? What are things you used to really enjoy in life? Even if it's something you haven't done in 10 years, what did you use to really love doing? And figuring out a way to harness it for that patient. And it doesn't always mean getting them to do that thing. Sometimes it's just making that thing accessible in some other way. So I had a patient a few years ago who was in her seventies and she had bilateral carpal tunnel and she was walking with a cane and she had seen eight therapists in eight years and then she landed on my schedule and you know the first thing we did and she was spanish-speaking so we had the live interpreter and the interpreter still tells a story and um you know she's telling me you know there's nothing you can give me that

i haven't had already and i said probably true can you laugh four times for me nice and she And she looks at the interpreter, she looks at me, she looks at the interpreter, she looks at me. And so then I just started to go, ha, ha, ha, ha, right? Like I just like start going. So then she started laughing at me, right? But then she was laughing, right? So we broke the ice, we got a little laughter in there, which we know is really important. And ultimately the thing she really loved and missed in life was playing volleyball, right? Like, you know, it's not that she expected that I was going to get her back to playing volleyball, but I used volleyball a lot in my care, right? I printed out pictures of volleyball that she loved looking at. We would hit a beach

ball back and forth over a makeshift net, right? So I was able to harness volleyball in our care to help her find joy, right? So it doesn't always have to be going and doing that thing. It can inform our practice. Right. And that's such an important piece that you just mentioned is using that memory or that passion or that joy that that person used to have, but modifying in a way that it doesn't just take it away or that person doesn't feel like they're robbed from it, but you're like adding it back. And who knows, like you're putting it back on the table and volleyball might be a thing in the future, but right now, like right now, right. Yeah. Here's what we can do. And, and, and I love it. That case scenario. Cause you're like,

there's nothing you're going to tell me that I haven't heard already. I've been to eight therapists and these many specialists. And, um, and, and that's a good thing. I mean, that's a, that's a thing that I also experienced, but it's like, okay, well, you've been trying all these things and you've heard all these things. Where have they gotten you so far? Yeah. Right. Why are you here? If you know what I mean? Like sometimes you gotta like put it back on them. Like, okay, well, what are you expecting here? And are you willing to try a different approach? it's true I say that to people too I say this is gonna feel like not a traditional PT session for you but really our ultimate goal is to get you moving and doing right and we take a

you know different route to get there but I think once we get started you know you're gonna see that this is how we get you moving more moving differently re-engaging you know so it I think because of, of, I don't want to call it non-traditional because I think it's highly evidence-based, but I think it's probably an atypical approach that they sometimes haven't encountered before. And, you know, leaving room for that, right? Leaving room for this is different. How do you feel about it? Is this working? Is this not working? Giving them the space and honoring, you know, their, their thoughts in this process is really important, right? It's not like you don't want to like at somebody, right? You want them to engage and participate and feel that

they're heard and they're valued and what matters to them is incorporated in this process. Right. It's a huge thing I learned in improv. It's yes and. So somebody's giving you a gift, right? Whatever it is, some makeshift unicorn. But what you do is you say, yes, I hear you. Yes, it's a gift. Thank you. And right. Building a relationship of trust, which maybe you can speak a little bit about the context because the context of the relationship, I guess the container that clinicians create for that interaction, that human interaction. Can you speak a little bit about that? Absolutely. Absolutely. You and I touched a little bit on it before that. You know, patients are pleasers, right? They want you to feel good as a clinician that you're helping

them feel better, right? So sometimes it means that patients might give you an answer that is not their truth, right? So making sure that people feel comfortable telling you, I don't think you got it right this time, or I really didn't love that exercise, or no, I didn't really do my home exercise. Truth be told, I didn't do my home exercises. I just don't like them. Right. Giving, giving the patient that space to have that thought and belief and tell you that without judgment, without lecturing them, without doubling down on it, if they didn't like it, they didn't like it. Right. Like, like let's find something else that you enjoy better. I want it to work for you. And if this thing that you tried at home didn't work for you, then no problem.

we'll, we'll figure something else out. Right. We'll still bridge off of that theme, but we'll make it work better for you. And I see a lot of times, you know, conversations about buy-in adherence, you know, things like that. And I really, it makes me cringe because I'm like, yeah, I think we're missing the boat. Right. If someone's not into it, they're not into it. Right. Some people I've had people that even executives come in and say, I don't like doing home exercises. I'm like, okay, then I will not give you a home exercise. Right. You're telling me this isn't your thing. Why would I give you that thing? Right. But we just, we have this idea that like, I'm a, I'm a therapist. I give you home exercises and like, this is what we do.

Right. But sometimes it's movement opportunities. Sometimes it's reframing your thought about movement. Right. I had a patient this week. It was our third session. And typically when she starts to have a change in symptoms, she stops her activity because she's afraid it's going to get worse, right? Totally normal thought, totally logical response. So, you know, in our therapy session this week, we, you know, kept activity, you know, min to moderate, and we just kept checking in. How are you tolerating it? Can you do more? Right? And she did great, right? She had a change in symptoms and it stayed there. It didn't go beyond that, right? And so her homework was to go home and do a little more, right? She can choose what that is for her, right? I don't

have to give her, you know, do these three exercises. It's a little extra, whatever it is you're doing, do a little extra. And if it starts bothering you to the point that you want to stop, change your activity and see if that allows you to go a little further. right right i think people forget that sometimes it's the easiest novel things it's novelty you know it doesn't have to be a structured oh my gosh am i doing this right is my alignment right i think that is all i mean you know i'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater but i think that we've gone to through to the extreme of you know making people feel really rigid and uncomfortable in their own bodies where you start to lose confidence in your ability to move and

trust in your body's ability to move, whether or not it looks pretty. I mean, life is sloppy. So life is sloppy. 100% life is sloppy. It's okay if you're not in that perfect yoga pretzel shape pose, which I'll never be able to do since even after a three-week yoga training, but it's just not going to happen. And that's okay. It's not going to fix people or to make into these perfect little specimens or something. We're here to serve them and to collaborate with them and ultimately get, you know, you're facilitating their own healing process and it's their own internal experience that we're most concerned about or that we should be the driving factor or that should be the driving factor. So. Yeah. And it's empowering to patients,

right? I did 20 more minutes of activity that I didn't know that I could do. Wow. Who knew I could do that? Right? That's huge, right? Like just the shift in the mindset, right? Talk about neuroplastic change, right? They're going from, I have to stop after I feel this way to I can go a little further. That sensation doesn't go anywhere else, but right where it's at. And I was able to do, you know, more of the activity that I wanted to do. And I was able to finish a task or move, start another task. Right. Then, then like you build up on that confidence, their brain is practicing safety, right? All these, they're happy. They feel good. Right. All these positive neurochemicals are flooding their system. Like that's exactly our goal. Right. And Debra, tell,

tell the listeners about the actual, like on a structural level, because sometimes it can be seem like, Oh, it's all in my head. Right. Yeah. But can you speak to that? It can seem that way. It can. Right. Well, your brain is in your head. And I always say that like, that's, you know, it's there, but, but can you speak a little bit about maybe the nerdy science-y stuff behind like, okay, when you are seeking pleasure and when you are active and doing the things that you love and laughing and being around people that, you know, boost you up and support you, um, what on a physiological level is happening. Right. So, you know, we have like our happy hormones and our stress hormones, right? So we have our dopamine and serotonins and we have our

adrenalines and, you know, we have our epinephrine and norepinephrine and all of that. So, you know, I do this on a very superficial level with patients. When they tell me about, you know, something stressful or something traumatic that happened, you know, and I ask them just on a real basic level, what kind of impact do you think that has on your pain and suffering? It's a real, you know, it's sort of like led them to the answer, right? Obviously nothing good, right? That's, that's right. That doesn't feel good. It doesn't reinforce anything good. And then I flip the question for them and I say, what do you think laughing and being happy and having a positive experience would have on your pain and suffering? Right. And obviously lots of good things, right?

We get really a lot of positive neuroplasticity from, you know, all those positive neurochemicals flooding our system. So, right. And then we have sensory processing, which is, which is part of this mix, right? Perception is reality. Someone tells you something feels a certain way. It doesn't mean it is that way. It's how their brain is sensing it, right?

So we have our, you know, premotor cortex and motor cortex and all of that. And before you execute a movement, your brain is already figuring it out and doing it, right? And so if what is being practiced and repeated is this isn't going to feel good, then you're hurting before you even start, right? That's right, you're primed. Right, it's true. So if we can interrupt that process and say, I'm okay, I can do this before executing a task, then we're reinforcing positive neuroplastic change away from the pain, right?

Without going into like major, you know, what cortex it's in, but essentially that's what it is, right? This is a sensory processing neuroplastic event, right? So if we can get in that, you know, premotor and association areas and kind of change the decision-making process, right? So they can practice something different, then we can shift it away. So the way I explain that to patients is, you know, just as I said, you know, what do you think, you know, stressful events or having a fight with your partner or sitting in traffic,

right? What does that do for your symptoms, right? I don't, it doesn't feel good, but all this other stuff, right? Having a good laugh, right? Doing something you love, right? Those all have a very different effect. So re-engaging in those changes our sensory processing and it's really important. And if we don't start getting our patients practicing safety and I'm okay, then I'm, you know, a lot of stuff, anything else we do isn't going to have as much of an impact. Right. Right. And the bottom line, this message that I'm hearing you say is that change is possible and change is happening all the time. It's just what, yeah. What, what are we paying attention to and what actions are we taking?

Yeah. What are we reinforcing? Right. What is our practice reinforcing? saying right exactly and how is that serving you right so you're like you're saying you know if you do x y and z or this is how we respond well how does that serve you in the situation that situation is still happening how how can you respond differently so that you are maybe shifting those neurological processes and those patterns into a more um healthy way uh and more adaptive way that can still maintain resilience, even in the face of adversity. Right. A hundred percent. And some of that comes with that empowerment of like, I know I can do this. Yeah. Right. Or I know that I've established a few strategies for self-management that I can,

A, predict when, you know, this interaction I know is going to bother me and I can do some care beforehand, right. To preempt some of that. But also, you know, if I'm experiencing a flare up, I have tools and strategies to help myself so that I can manage and get through and not have it debilitate me. Right. That's massive. Oh, totally. I mean, it's liberating. It's liberating. It's so liberating. It's like this huge weight off your shoulders and once you feel like, I'm not going to hurt myself. Oh, right. And so knowledge is really analgesic. I mean, when that person really takes it to heart and I say, don't listen to me. I mean, don't take my word for it, blind faith here. I want you to taste it. I want you to try it out. I want you to

explore your limits, explore your boundless potential, and then tell me what you think. Right. We just scratched the surface in our session. We're just like, let's just test the waters. Do you see how we did this? Try it out, play with it, see what works for you. I'm excited to hear what your results are, good, bad, or ugly, that'll dictate our next step, right? How, what worked, what didn't, how can we retool it to fit you better, right? And it's so much less stressful, right? I'm not giving them this like, you know, these like really strict parameters of like, you need to do three sets of 10 or, right? Like just go and move and enjoy, right? And tell me how that went for you. Was it successful? Was it not successful? Can we help

it be better. Let's try it different, right? Giving them options. Independence, autonomy. Choices are great. And I think that starts with the clinician too. I think it's a paradigm shift, but us as clinicians and practitioners need to realize that that is an important aspect of how we use our words. What do we say during an assessment? What are we reinforcing for that person even on a subconscious level is so important and and they and many patients have been told so many conflicting pieces of information especially with persistent pain that they're confused they're frustrated and they just don't know who to believe and and it it boggles my mind at not one positive thing you know and there's experiences it's like oh i've been told i'm out

my hips are all out of alignment or my posture is this and X, Y, and Z. And again, they're walking around thinking I'm broken. Something wrong with me. I'm never going to get better. My life is over. I just had a patient this week who is on his third quad tendon repair, right? That's a big deal. And his ortho wanted him to see the sports med specialist and the sports med specialist was really negative, told him his quad was done, told him he was never going to get any better than he is, that he should have no expectations. Oh my gosh. Well, what's the point of living at this point? Right. He was so upset. He was so upset. He's like, I think therapy is working. I feel stronger. I feel like, you know, is that quad extremely weak? Absolutely. But like we're making

slow and steady progress. But he was so upset by this negative message and he decided, he chose, I don't believe this, right? He was able to say, this sounds like nonsense. I'm staying with therapy. I like where it's going. I like how I'm feeling, right? Like, yes, this is a longer process because you better believe a surgeon is going to be far more conservative after a third rupture repair, but we're getting there, right? We're, we're making progress. And I said, you know, I don't know where you're going to get, I don't have a crystal ball, but right now we see continued progress. So we're going to keep working. And he's like, that is such a better message. Right? Like there's hope in that message. Oh my gosh. Well, and that's the thing. Oh my gosh. I,

I just posted, it was so funny because I had a patient who had this t-shirt and it said perseverance. And on the back of his shirt said, holding to the belief that you will succeed despite all the evidence to the contrary. It's true. Including an expert telling you terrible, hopeless ending messages. Preach, Debra. Why would you say that? Why would you say that? I know, I know. you know, but I've, I've also experienced the flip side where a patient canceled all their therapy appointments because the doctor told them therapy wasn't going to work. Right. It wasn't, it was a colleague's patient, but you know, I think we've all experienced that. Well,

my doctor says therapy is not going to work, so I'm not going to waste my time coming. Right. And you're just like, Oh gosh, right. Right. Right. And, and, and that's a good point that you're segwaying into it's it's just because a treatment failed you it's not that you failed the treatment right i think that's the mindset that it didn't work for me right right it just didn't work for you and that person was did you know they were trying their best but unfortunately it wasn't the right ingredients to make your own recipe for success so you know you you don't lose hope you persevere you're determined you move on you know sometimes you got to kiss a lot of frogs to find your prince. It's true. It's true. And I do, with my business, I work with a lot of

clinicians who are figuring out how to help individuals who hurt better. And a huge amount of that work is working on the clinician's mindset, right? It's really easy to say, well, this didn't work. Let's double down on it, right? Let me give you twice the dose and see if that works better, right? Well, let me load you more. Let me give you more exercise. Let me shame you for not doing your home exercises. Yeah. Right. But I think some of that comes from the clinician not feeling confident and exploring other avenues, not knowing or understanding how to implement other strategies. Right. So that's really like the focus of my work is being able to talk out a case with a clinician who knows there's something else going on and

has done some things and it didn't work so well and doesn't really know where to go from there and making it accessible to them so they feel really confident working with that person and finding success with them. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And so where do you think that should start? I guess you're working with clinicians individually and patients individually, but what is the bigger picture, I guess, with all of this? How do we as a profession help with this paradigm shift to get clinicians to even, you know, graduate students, you know, I feel like this is not in the curriculum. I mean, I graduated a decade ago. I learned, yeah, nothing that I know today. You know, right. Unfortunately, but, but in your opinion, kind of how do we redefine all this and, and

spread the message and help with this paradigm shift? Yeah, I think that's really, really important. I think for starters, understanding, you know, in school, I think there needs to be a conversation about, you know, sometimes what we do doesn't work and we need to look inside first, right? We're really, you know, right. Therapists, doctors, right. It doesn't feel good to not help your patients, right. When you feel like you've given them what you could give them. Right. And so then, then you start having this barrier with your patient. Right. Cause you're like, I don't know what to do with you. You scare me because I'm unsure. Right. Then I don't feel confident in my skills. Am I a bad clinician? Right. And then like, there's just

this, you know, it just creates more space between you and the patient. Right. As opposed to like, let me phone a friend, right? Let me get a little backup in here to help me help you better, right? We think we should have all the answers. And as experienced as I am, I ask other clinicians questions all the time, right? For lots of different reasons. I see patients who are really complex, who have many systems at play, and I'm not an expert in vestibular, but if I suspect there's some vestibular thing going on, I'm going to go talk to my friend who is an expert and vestibular, right? That's right. That's just how, how we do it. But, you know, when it comes to pain, you know, I think, A, there's just not enough education, you know, within the programs.

And when there is, I think there's high variability in how it's delivered, right? I had a clinician that I was mentoring who told me that they had a full semester on pain topics. I was like, that is amazing. And I go, so what do you do? And she's like, well, it was mostly research-based. Yes, and? Yes, and? How do we apply that? I was like, so really, it was missing that knowledge translation, right? That's what was missing was knowledge translation of what that means you do. I think a lot of people get the biopsychosocial spider web diagram. Have you seen that? It's like domains, right? Sort of like the spider webby thing. And when I talk to clinicians, you know, like that are students

who are new grads, it goes like, so tell me about that. What do you think of that? And they're like, um, I don't know. It means I need a list of outcome measures. What, okay. But what do you do with that? Right. So like taking it beyond that, like how, you know, even teaching clinicians about like trauma informed practice. Um, you know, that honestly, it doesn't have to be a full semester. It can be like one lecture to plant some of those seeds. Um, just this week, I had a clinician tell me, Debra, I'm sending this patient to you. I think there's more happening here. You know, I just did the evaluation and I go, do you think there's any trauma or abuse? And they're like, I didn't ask. Right. Cause it's uncomfortable to ask. It's a scary question as

a clinician to ask. And it's not that I'm going to sit there and treat their trauma or abuse, but it's important to know, right? It's valuable to know. It helps me help the patient better, right? Have you gotten care for this? Can I connect you with someone? Where are you in your healing of that process, right? Because let me tell you, it matters, right? I'm not going to step outside my scope and try to treat that, but let's not pretend that it's unrelated to the human at all, right? We can't totally compartmentalize it. So, you know, kind of some of that knowledge, right? And even if a patient's uncomfortable, sometimes I just say to them, you know, it's really common that people who experienced this have had a history of trauma or abuse.

Does that hold true for you? Right. Right. And then it just, it doesn't have to be a deep conversation. Yes. Okay. Have you gotten, have you sought help for that? Right. So, you know, getting clinicians comfortable talking about uncomfortable topics. I wish we did that more in school. Yes. Like, of course those like basic, like communication skills of active listening and just what you're saying is just normalizing things, like saying like normalizing things. You're normalizing the situation. I do that a lot with pelvic health and pelvic pain and sexual dysfunction. It's so taboo. You got to say, Hey, this is really common and you're not alone. And if this is happening for you, let's, you know, if you don't want to talk about it with me, let's

get you to talk about it with someone else. But if you feel that that's something you need to do for yourself, because that's another thing is giving them the option of having permission to disclose or not to disclose. Yeah. Decide. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Deborah. Exactly. Oh my goodness. Well, lovely. Tell our listeners how they can connect with you out in the world. for sure well I have a website devrajoy.com I have blogs you can email me through that website you can see my mentoring options available and consulting and things like that um I my blogs really focus on knowledge translation so it's about how I use the research in in practice and how I interpret it um I'm on twitter at devrajoypt and I'm on instagram at devrajoypt and I'm around

reach out, ask a question, right? This is about doing this better and helping a clinician feel confident and working with their patient and helping them to not hurt. And lessening the burnout too. And lessening the burnout, 100%. Because it's exhausting feeling like you're not helping your patients, right? It's not why any of us got into this. No, no, right. There's so much love and empathy and compassion and the drive to help is all there. But yeah, we put so much pressure on ourselves for the, for outcomes, you know, we're like, yeah, we're outcomes. What's an outcome, right? Who's outcomes? Exactly. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Yes. And that could be another topic for another, like several hours. Absolutely. I hear you on that. Oh my gosh.

Thank you, Debra, so much for being on the show today. I really appreciate it. And to all our listeners out there. Thank you so much for listening and watching the show. And until next time, in loving wellness for your pelvis, this is Dr. Susie G. Bye. Thanks for listening to today's episode. Be sure to head on over to drsusieg.com where you can get more information, show notes, and related articles on today's topic. Also, if you like what you're hearing, head on over to iTunes, subscribe to the podcast, and leave us a rating and review. We'd love to hear feedback. Thanks again. rock it cool okay