In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G - Male Sexuality with Dr. Barry McCarthy

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey friends, Dr. Suzy G here and welcome to another In Your Pants podcast. Thank you so much for being here with me today. all right y'all on today's show i've got a little bit of fan fever going on yes yes our guest today is someone who i admire who i look to as a mentor for support and guidance and a lot of my knowledge and education really came from the work that our guest has beautifully presented and also shared in their lifetime. And so yeah, I am really, really excited to introduce to you Dr. Barry McCarthy. Dr. Barry McCarthy is a board certified clinical psychologist and diplomat of sex therapy who practiced for 42 years and taught human sexuality for 50 years. His latest book is

Starting point is 00:01:18 called Contemporary Male Sexuality and that's really what we're going to be talking about and then some we're going to challenge the old views of male sexuality and dr mccarthy is going to share with us why a new model of male sexuality is really important to embrace we then review what a good enough sex model is and how that compares to perfect performance especially around sexual performance and what that sexual script has been for men and continues to be as a sexual script for a very long time and so we challenge some of the myths around male sexuality so that we can embrace a more humanistic positive uplifting pleasurable and safe experience in our sexuality with ourselves and also with a partner

Starting point is 00:02:14 segueing into erotic allyship and what does that look like between couples we also talk about how to enhance and promote satisfying secure sexual relationships across all coupleships whether that's heterosexual gay lesbian so we touch base on comparing and contrasting really sexual relationships there and then we talk about couple sexuality in our 60s 70s and 80s and dr mccarthy shares some tips and helpful words of wisdom for all of us in in the show today so i again am so excited to share this episode with you and i hope you enjoy it just as much as i did while interviewing dr mccarthy so without further ado here's the show hope you enjoy it be sure to like and subscribe and share away, share the love. Dr. McCarthy, thank you so much for being

Starting point is 00:03:15 on the show today. Well, I'm really glad to be here. I always enjoy talking about sexuality and sexual issues. Absolutely. And we're going to dive right in because I am curious to hear more about why a new model of male sexuality. Well, you know, the way that most men learn about sex is they learn that it is autonomous in other words she can feel desire have an erection go to intercourse have an orgasm and not needing anything from his partner and it's always been the basis of the male female double standard that says male that sex is the man's domain not the woman's domain or shared domain and the notion of a good a new model is not to put down male sexuality at all it's we're very pro-male pro-female pro-couple and pro-sexuality but it

Starting point is 00:04:07 is to motivate and empower men to really enjoy their sexuality and not make it an individual pass fail performance test which i think it is it is now one of the things that really shocks most people to understand is that when couples stop being sexual especially after age 50 it's almost always the man's choice not because he wants to stop being sexual because he can't be sexual the way he was in his teens in his 20s and he says to himself i don't want to start something i can't finish and that's a really poor choice for the man for the woman for the couple and the idea of the new model of male sexuality is to emphasize that new mantra about sex which is desire pleasure eroticism and satisfaction and that emphasizes that men and women are intimate and erotic allies

Starting point is 00:05:05 but the most important issue is that sex is not an individual male performance test that sex is about sharing pleasure and turning toward his partner as his intimate neurotic ally whether the sex was absolutely wonderful or the sex was problematic it gives men and couples much more breathing space to really enjoy sex as a shared pleasure absolutely and it sounds like we're taking pressure to perform off the table in this model that the basic notion is that sex is about sharing pleasure as a couple not about individual perfect performance it's a hard sell women by and large are more open to that for males especially male physicians male friends um drug company people the idea is stick with the old model of performance and that is bad

Starting point is 00:06:08 for sexuality and bad for men right that sexual script is it causes a lot of suffering A lot of suffering. It's way too narrow. And you're always one failure away from feeling bad about yourself as a sexual man. Hmm. So, Dr. McCarthy, talk to us a little bit about that good enough sex model versus that perfect performance and how we can tie that into perhaps alleviating some of that stress around performing and being and having sex in a certain way that's been kind of ingrained in us for a very long time. Again, let me be very specific and very clear. I am totally in favor of the traditional approach of spontaneous erections, easy intercourse, and easy ejaculation. There's nothing wrong with it. It is a positive learning, but it is not a good learning for sex in ongoing relationships. it isn't a good learning for men over age 30 or 40 that the notion about good enough sex is it's a couple concept not an individual concept it's about pleasure not performance but it welcomes and not just excess but welcomes sex that is the best sex is mutual and synchronous

Starting point is 00:07:30 for both partners they feel high levels of desire pleasure eroticism and satisfaction by far that's the best sex but most sex is asynchronous and what that means is good sex but it's better for one partner than the other and for most couples under 40 it's better for the man than the woman one of the most interesting gender changes is that after age 60 asynchronous sex tends to be better for the woman than the man and that one of the major skills for males over 60 is to learn to piggyback his arousal on his partner's arousal and what I say to my male clients especially older male clients is that you want to be a wise man wise men stay sexual in their 80s traditional men stop being sexual in their 50s and 60s you owe it to yourself and

Starting point is 00:08:23 your partner to be a wise man so good enough sex allows you to understand there's multiple roles meanings and outcomes of sexuality. It isn't a simple pass fail test. Right. And Dr. McCarthy, how could we, it seems that this model could be beneficial to learn and to embrace even in a man's 20s, you know, in teens, and as they're learning about their bodies and sexuality, what do you think about that? I think that would be ideal. And especially what would be ideal even in your teens and 20s is the idea that of female male sexual equity there's many more similarities between men and women sexually than there are differences i think that's a really important concept unfortunately it's a very hard sell for

Starting point is 00:09:19 teenagers and young adults for teenagers and young adults especially men they like the idea of total predictability and sense of control of the traditional approach. What I say to them is that you can be a wise man at 20, and a wise man at 20 can adopt good enough sex. A wise man at 20 can understand that sex can have different roles and different meanings and different outcomes. But for most men, that doesn't happen until they've had a sensitizing experience. let me be specific about what i mean by that for most men and again sensitizing experience can happen not not until you're 75 and it can happen at 18 but for most men it happens somewhere between 35 and 55 and that is when they don't have an erection sufficient for intercourse and rather

Starting point is 00:10:16 than panicking and apologizing they have to understand that that that too is part of normal male and couple sexuality so that what you're trying to get them to embrace and the earlier you embrace it the better is this idea that sexuality is complex it isn't simple and that there's a his component of her component and our component to it and that it's okay to have variable flexible sex that's what allows you to be sexual in your 60s 70s and 80s now again you know when i used to teach my human sexual behavior class at american university there was usually something like 34 females and six males and the males had to apologize for being in the class because the idea is that men are supposed to be totally sure of themselves sexual

Starting point is 00:11:05 and again that's a performance myth that hurts men you know one of my favorite myths is the idea is that 85% of men believe their penis is smaller than average. It doesn't make any psychological sense or statistical sense, but it's true. The male theme is it's all about total performance and control. And how is that, I guess, interwoven into the fabric of the identity or masculinity, right? Because I think penis performance, appearance, that really ties into one's own identity, sexual self, sexual voice. Like, yeah, can we talk a little bit about that? Well, I do think the notion of beginning sexuality with acceptance and then adding to acceptance is the way to go.

Starting point is 00:11:58 So many men have a contingent sexual self-esteem. they say if my partner knew this about me or my friends knew this about me they wouldn't love me or respect me it's a tough way to live and way too many men live that way yeah but you know when you listen to males speak to each other about sex it isn't about sharing information or feelings it's about one about performing and one-upping each other i think part of a healthy identity is being able to accept yourself with your strengths and your vulnerabilities there is way too much shame in male sexuality that bad things are not that happen to women sexually they don't happen to men

Starting point is 00:12:43 and again that's totally untrue that's a myth I work with folks, men, I mean, my practice is mostly men, who have chronic pelvic pain, persistent pelvic pain that completely, just utterly devastates mentally, physically, relationally. and I think what you're alluding to as far as that acceptance piece is really huge because performance you know sexual functioning is going to be different with a chronic issue like that right and working through pain and being able to communicate this is what's going on for me and I find that with a lot of the folks that I work with that piece of will someone accept me you know if they're dating or in that scene or single perhaps how can i possibly go into dating and meeting someone who would want to be with me i i would not be able to provide to

Starting point is 00:13:54 to be a quote a man because my penis doesn't function normally right well how what how can we help how can we help these folks like in that situation of i think what i think what you do is really really important because generally male sexual pain has been totally ignored so even in the textbooks there's chapters on female sexual pain but very few chapters on male sexual pain or if there is a chapter it has two or three paragraphs male sexual pain is real it's a genuine and it's a perfect example male sexual pain is a perfect example of what i think of as the psycho-biosocial model of assessment and treatment and then you've got to look at all the complexity and all the factors that go into it including the psychological factor

Starting point is 00:14:53 of accepting that you have a vulnerability and your vulnerability is sexual pain and before being sexual with a part a new partner is being able to share with her i am pro-sexual i feel good about sexuality i feel good about being a man but i want you to understand that i have a vulnerability and that is a history about sexual pain and i need you to be my intimate don't do it for me but be my intimate neurotic ally in helping me and us deal with the sexual pain. And that can include, if you were open to it, or she were open to it, of seeing a single consultation with you, where you could explain the sexual pain to her, that in a way that would be positive, rather than embarrassing or shaming.

Starting point is 00:15:47 But again, you need specialists in sexual pain, because most physicians, especially male physicians and especially urologists are not particularly well versed or not well versed at all yeah in understanding or talking to men about sexual pain right often very dismissed and and not affirmed and and not validated as as my experience of of the story or having it labeled as psychosomatic and blaming the man for it rather than saying this is a very complex issue biomedically, psychologically, relationally, and we've got to use all our resources. But your background is as a physical therapist, is that correct? Correct.

Starting point is 00:16:34 It's your original background. So again, that's an incredibly important self-specialty, but it's always been emphasized for female sexual pain, not male sexual pain. Yes, 100%. And we need to incorporate that as part of the comprehensive treatment of male sexuality, including pain. And one of the most important things is that he not define his sexuality by the pain problem. That his sexuality, and he as a man, is much more than the pain problem. but the other thing that i think is important and that males almost never feel that they have

Starting point is 00:17:16 right to is their right to veto something that doesn't work for them the idea is that real men never say no to sex i mean i've heard that as an adolescent i've heard that as a adult i've heard it as a clinician, a real man never says no to sex and a real man never has a negative sexual experience. And those are myths that need to be challenged and replaced by something much more human and much more pro-sexual. A hundred percent. I mean, just think about the burden of that throughout one's lifetime, the burden, the heaviness of carrying that around. And then as you're saying dr mccarthy life changes our bodies change circumstances may arise that are are not pleasant and how do we respond in those situations with a framework or a conceptual framework of

Starting point is 00:18:17 this is how it is and should be that in that moment so much distress right and again the goal you know if if you wind up having pain-free sex i'm always in favor of that but that's not the right goal for the majority of men or women right the right goal is to enjoy desire pleasure eroticism and satisfaction and not feel controlled by the pain and you do all the things you need to do psychologically, biomedically, relationally, and sexual technique-wise that allows you to enjoy the sexual experience. And pleasure still is the measure. Yeah. Yeah. So there's no magic pill is what you're saying, Dr. McCarthy. There's no simplistic magic pill. And in a few cases where there is, and that's wonderful. Again, I'm always in favor of totally free, pain-free sex.

Starting point is 00:19:20 but that's not the measure that really is going to work for most right right so dr mccarthy in this is a great segue into how how we can or how can men turn towards their partner as an erotic ally with all of the stuff that we've been just kind of unpacking here on their shoulders. How does one step into that vulnerable space? I mean, there's a lot I can imagine, you know, just based on my own experiences as a woman, but stepping into these vulnerable spaces and conversations is like, it takes a lot of courage. It is very difficult. And I'm wondering if we can talk about that and unpack, like, how does one turn towards a partner, whether it's a fairly new relationship or a relationship that has been long-term?

Starting point is 00:20:14 you know, how can we do that? It's always easy to say what not to do. So let's start with what not to do. Fair. The worst time to talk sex is when you're nude in bed after a negative experience. People say and do things that really cause pain. And the other thing not to do is don't apologize and don't avoid. i think the best time to talk sex is the day before being sexual when you're clothed on a

Starting point is 00:20:50 walk or over a cup of tea or a glass of wine on the porch and when you say i want you i want touching and sexuality to work for us as a couple i want to have a positive role in our lives and for that to happen you need to be aware that i have a vulnerability and that vulnerability whatever the pain vulnerability or the erection vulnerability or the premature ejaculation vulnerability or the ejaculatory inhibition vulnerability or of being able to say to the partner for me desire is responsive it isn't spontaneous so and that is something that you can say without apologizing you can say all those things without apology you say this is who i am and i want sex to work for you and i want it to

Starting point is 00:21:44 work for us as a couple so that's why i want to talk to you about this you know there's so many women who are well intentioned who say i want to be your intimate ally and it doesn't matter It does matter. You don't want to feel sympathy. Empathy is really helpful. Sympathy is actually counterproductive. Don't treat the man as damaged goods. Treat him with his strengths and treat him with his vulnerability.

Starting point is 00:22:19 And the question becomes with the vulnerability, is it totally changeable? is it modifiable which is usually the case or do we have to accept it and work around it you know when i talk to couples or men i use my example about i have a perceptual learning disorder so somebody who has rights as much as i do i cannot type or use computers and i get really intimidated by zoom calls i love talking sex and giving it but i get intimidated by the technology and it's a vulnerability that i have worked very hard to work around but i've never i can't master it it is a problem but it doesn't define me or my worth or my relationship so what you want to encourage your man to do is to be

Starting point is 00:23:18 positive about himself and the problem but to let her in on what the issues are and to say i need you not just to be empathic and supportive i do need that but i also need you to be my sexual and erotic friend and that is i want you to enjoy the experience and i want to enjoy the experience and we work around the vulnerability does that sound too idealistic or is that no i mean for me i have my biases dr mccarthy but that that sounds like a healthy way to to live and to connect and to be able to feel safe enough to experience pleasure eroticism desire you know um it's human it's you know it's being human right and that's that's the basis you know one of the things i love about the sexuality field is that when sexuality works the way it

Starting point is 00:24:15 should in a person's life or in a relationship it is not the biggest issue i talk about in a positive way is a 15 issue 15 20 issue that allows you to feel desire and desirability and allows you to feel that your bond is energized and special the paradox actually is where it's problematic or dysfunctional or it's a source of shame or embarrassment it plays an enormously powerful negative role in the person's life and in the relationship's life and so what i say to people is you deserve for sexuality to have that healthy 15 to 20 percent role you deserve to feel good about yourself as a sexual woman or a sexual man so i think the best time to talk sex is before being sexual when you're dressed on a walk or

Starting point is 00:25:11 on the porch and say this is what i want to try the next time we're sexual and also and be clear with your partner and again we're talking mostly about heterosexual folks we can talk about gay folks if you want later but is to say your feelings and your needs as a sexual woman are important to me i don't want to feel i have to perform for you but i do want to share pleasure with you and i want you to embrace touching and sexuality with me and now you mentioned uh which is i'm so great i'm grateful that you did as far as gay men um what are can we compare and contrast sure you know heterosexual couples versus gay couples right well again in the ideal scenario i think change occurs more likely

Starting point is 00:26:08 when you treat the sex problem as a couple problem. And you also get much less relapse if you see them as a couple. It's true of both straight and gay couples. And here's a big issue, I think, with gay men. Generally, in gay sexual socialization, the emphasis has been on eroticism, erotic performance. It has downplayed both intimacy and pleasure what i say to my gay couples is that you want to see yourself as a first-class gay man in a first-class gay relationship and where it plays that healthy role and gay men have problems with sexual pain problems with desire problems with erections in the jacket the same way that other men do and the question is you owe it to yourself and your

Starting point is 00:27:09 relationship that sex be a positive part that it really be energizing and reinforce desire and desirability and part of that is feeling that you can turn toward each other if the sexual experience was dysfunctional or dissatisfying or mediocre. Not all sex is perfect sex. And almost nobody ever says that to men, straight or gay. And if you look at porn, where a lot of people get their sex education, there is never dissatisfaction or dysfunction with porn. Porn is always about perfect erotic sex. And that's a terrible message to both straight and gay men. But I think the biggest issue with gay men is that is the acceptance that for that man being gay is optimal it isn't he settling to be gay it is optimally gay and that he deserves for sex to

Starting point is 00:28:09 play a healthy role in his life and in his relationship you know one of the reasons that so many straight men are prejudiced against gay men is the fear that um you know if i'm positive about gay men that means there must be something wrong with me you don't get it isn't a thing where you're being politically correct it's a both and approach you can be positive about being a straight man and at the same time be positive about gay men and gay relationships it isn't a uh what's that line about a zero-sum game sexuality is not a zero-sum game right it is about acceptance and pleasure right and i heard a lot of just over overlap as far as the intimacy the acceptance pieces the themes that heterosexual couples and gay couples like it really is self-acceptance

Starting point is 00:29:10 love um thinking of oneself as worthy and enough to be worthy and enough to receive and to give pleasure uh love sexual expression and have sexual freedom and we can't have that when we're not feeling safe and comfortable with ourselves with our partners or in our environment well you know the other thing that i would emphasize that i think is not emphasized enough in the sex field is that unless you have the right to say no to sex you don't have the freedom to say yes to sex so being in a position whether we're talking about pain we're talking about erections whatever we're talking about you have a right to say this doesn't work for me i want to veto it in our in our lives but i'm so you and you want your partner to accept your veto and not fight you with

Starting point is 00:30:08 it but you also don't want to avoid it's a it's a complex message but it's a true message so i when i work clinically i say to people you have i want you to be able to veto at least one sexual scenario technique, and up to three. And then have your veto honored, but you don't have a right to avoid. Because the more you avoid, the more anxious you get and the more you disown your sexuality. So how do you, so how would one practically, I guess, not avoid, but what are some examples of non-avoidance. So let's say there's a veto of, you know, I don't want to participate in, you know, intercourse, for example. How would one still connect, you know, embrace the, you know, the partner embracing the veto, but also having the person who's doing the

Starting point is 00:31:12 vetoing saying, but I still want to connect with you. Right. Am I making sense with that question? absolutely so again let's use a gay example first and then a heterosexual example second let's use a male example first and a female example second so we cover it all because i think the concept goes across gender and across orientation so um let's use again the gay male example. Many, many men really value anal intercourse, but a percentage of men do not value anal intercourse. One of the most interesting things with gay men and anal intercourse is that there are more men who prefer being passive in anal intercourse than prefer being active. So in a relationship, if the man, whether it's being passive or an actor, it's not me.

Starting point is 00:32:07 i don't like being sexual that way and it isn't you it isn't our relation it's just it's not me it's it's a turnoff for me you want the partner to accept that but you also want the partner to come back and say where can we meet can we do manual sex can we do oral sex can we do rubbing sex do we do it in simultaneously do we take turns doing it how do we genuinely engage in a positive way. Okay. Now let's use the straight man example. You know, one of the things that is often misunderstood and ignored in male sexuality is that among young men, about one and a half percent of young men have a very hard time ejaculating intravaginally. and for men over 50 it goes up to as much as 15 so one of the things that they can veto is saying

Starting point is 00:33:10 i don't want to have sex the traditional way which is only doing stroking during intercourse if it's going to work for me what i so doing that that way of being sexual doesn't work for me What will work for me is doing multiple stimulation before and during intercourse. What will work for me is both giving stimulation to my partner, let's use the heterosexual example, giving breast stimulation, giving kissing stimulation, giving buttock stimulation, and receiving testicle stimulation. That's what works for me. So the issue is what really does engage me and is pleasurable and gets us into an erotic flow? and i feel safer knowing what won't work whether i thought it whether you thought it was normal i thought but it just doesn't work for me i have a right to say no to sex so i can really engage

Starting point is 00:34:06 and enjoy sex now can we use a female example is this absolutely absolutely no i don't want to lose you or lose the audience no we're good absolutely let's yet let's get more examples a very large percentage of women i know this is a big fight that's it let's look at let's look at the data on orgasm and then talk about vetoes remember the data only one out of six women orgasms the way men orgasm she has a single orgasm during intercourse without needing additional stimulation for her that's her sexual voice that works for her there's no reason to change it she ought to embrace it but for five out of six women that doesn't work and one of the most typical things in my experience

Starting point is 00:34:59 that women will veto is they will veto the traditional approach to couple sex she is passive during foreplay and he decides when to transition to intercourse one of the things that has really been helpful to many of my a couple clients and with that is the females issue is veto that we i veto traditional foreplay and intercourse i want but i want to replace it with something and that is i want to replace it with responsive female sexual desire that rather than expecting to spontaneously feel desire i start a sexual encounter at neutral and when i engage in touching as well as being touched for many women touching is just as arousing as being touched so and but it's also that she's active

Starting point is 00:35:57 mm-hmm and that she doesn't transition to genital stimulation until her subjective arousal on a 10 point scale 10 being orgasm zero being neutral is at least a five or six and ideally is a seven or an eight that is extremely helpful to very very many women and i think the other thing that is important is that orgasm is not the right measure for female sexual satisfaction i'm totally in favor of female orgasm but it's not the right it isn't a pass fail test again right now one of the most valuable learnings and i almost always do this when i see couples is have an experience where the man was orgasmic but didn't particularly like it the woman was not orgasmic and felt really good about it satisfaction is more important than

Starting point is 00:36:55 orgasm and satisfaction means you feel good about yourself as a sexual woman more energized as a sexual couple again it's pro-orgasm but it's not this rigid performance orientation to orgasm yeah fluid flexible right and also i think one of the things that really helps So many, and it's also true of men, but especially women, and that is to value after play. Not after play to re-arouse, but after play as a way of sharing pleasure, of being connected, of saying that was fun, I'm glad we did that. After play is ignored way too much. You know, one of the most interesting issues with lesbian couples is that they report higher levels of sexual function, but lower levels of sexual frequency. and i think that the issue there is that there's a tendency

Starting point is 00:38:01 to have a best friend relational style but that winds up de-eroticizing the partner and de-eroticizing the relationship that the name of the game with i'm a big fan of intimacy pleasuring and eroticism but the big issue with intimacy is to find the right degree of intimacy that allows you to feel connected but not so much intimacy that you de-eroticize your partner and you de-eroticize the relationship so one of the things that is very helpful often with lesbian couples is give the woman you give each partner the power to veto something and one of the things that is very very interesting is almost never do you have both partners being the same thing that people have different breaks different vetoes but that is that you feel

Starting point is 00:39:01 accepted with the veto right and then that frees you to say this is what i would like to try and that's what you want you want to feel free to engage whether it's traditional engagement or non-traditional engagement in terms of what is sexually pleasurable and erotic for you. Oh, that's such, I'm so glad that we went over those examples because I think that will resonate. Again, the themes are interwoven and overlap very much so as what were my experience of what you're saying. This idea that there's more similarities and differences between and by gender and by sexual orientation absolutely absolutely so speaking of differences and changes and milestones in one's life can we segue into couple sexuality in our 60s 70s and 80s and perhaps beyond

Starting point is 00:39:58 yes absolutely you know the uh at the September 1st our last book will be published and it's called couple sexuality after 60 let me give you the good news first because there's a tremendous amount of good news and that is not only can you be sexual at least until 85 i believe you can be sexual after 85 but scientifically the evidence is clear at 85 that couples who are sexual in their 60s 70s and 80s are more satisfied with sexuality than couples in their 30s and 40s that's really important to me to me all the good things about sexuality come to fruition in it with aging the idea of the pleasure orientation the idea of being intimate erotic allies the good enough sex model but probably the thing that most comes to fruition is seeing each other in terms of sexual

Starting point is 00:40:53 equity not the old standard now can i give you the bad news i hate to give it to you but i'm well yeah that's the bad news too the bad news is that one out of three couples stop being sexual between 60 and 65 two out of three between 70 and 75 it isn't because they they make that decision right it's actually made by the man as an emotional choice because he feels so frustrated and embarrassed that sex isn't working the way it did in his 20s and 30s and he said if i if i can't do sex the right way i don't want to be sexual at all and he usually doesn't say it to his partner and he conveys it non-verbally by just avoiding touching it's a really bad decision it isn't a decision it's a really bad choice it is that kind of grumpy old man notion of negating not just

Starting point is 00:41:53 sexuality but negating relationships and involvement it feeds a sense of frustration and anger and alienation so what's the key the key is to redefine what you mean by sex for most people when they think of sex they think of intercourse they think about that as a teenager in their 20s and their 40s and in their up to their 60s that one of the most valuable of all the exercise psychosexual skill exercise and guidelines is the practice having sensual scenarios in other words non-genital touching but you're involved with each other and it can be mutual or it can be asynchronous but it's usually mutual playful scenarios which intermix gentle non-gentle pleasuring and erotic scenarios which again

Starting point is 00:42:49 can be mutual or asynchronous that involve manual oral or rubbing stimulation and say sensual playful and erotic is all sexual and that intercourse is more than that i love intercourse i'm always in favor of intercourse but sex is not primarily about intercourse it's primarily about being involved with giving and receiving pleasure that's the key to sex and aging and what i say to my male clients that they really get a kick out of is the idea of being a wise man rather than a traditional man and the idea of you're beating the odds because your peers are stopping being sexual and i say to them and i really mean this and that is staying sexually active in terms of quality of your life is more important than putting two hundred thousand dollars

Starting point is 00:43:42 in your retirement fund it's really going to make a difference yeah you're going to stay engaged in your life and in the quality of your life i also think you know why women like sex and aging why because actually there's a true client story there's a couple of why i'd seen who had been married or had been a couple for over six years and married over 50 years and he was in his mid-70s and she was in early 70s and she said i like having sex with you so much more now than i did as a teenager as a teenager you had show-up erections now in your 60s and 70s you have grown-up erections and i am part of your grown-up erections i love the fact that you piggyback your arousal time it just feels

Starting point is 00:44:37 so much more genuine and human so i'm a very big fan of that um you know uh i am next month i'm going to be 78 and emily and i will have been married over 55 years and so i really do i believe in this stuff not just theoretically or scientifically but personally also it really does make a difference in people and their relationships right it's living authentically and living true to oneself and coupleship and again that humanistic part of our experience on this world you know um because it's too short too short to be burdened by all the other stuff that gets in the way people who have a contingent life whether it's their personal life their sexual life or their relational life that is a very very

Starting point is 00:45:39 hard way to live being able to turn towards your partner and saying this was wonderful or this was really good or this was just fine or was mediocre or was really a bomb yeah that's a good thing and you know back to your thing about pain the only thing that i would tell your clients about pain is what you cannot do is apologize or avoid you can do any everything else but don't apologize 100 great advice this is what yes why why would we why why is that necessary right that just reinforces the i'm broken this is my problem but again in in male sexual socialization Again, if you want me to speak more about females, I'm more than glad to do that. But in male sexual socialization, men do not speak the truth to other men.

Starting point is 00:46:42 Men do not speak the truth to male physicians. They don't speak the truth to drug company representatives. They don't speak the truth to people who sell penile prostheses. they always say it's all perfect it's a total scientifically and clinically that's a total lie mm-hmm that part of being a genuine male a genuine female and genuine couple is you turn toward each other whether it was wonderful or was okay or it was dysfunctional and you don't apologize right apologize if you're self-sexual it's really a mistake well dr mccarthy this is amazing i mean i'm honestly just such words of wisdom and great

Starting point is 00:47:33 advice for a positive sexual script and a way of living and embracing our sexuality and our voices and our freedoms uh in healthy ways in in non-toxic ways you know um that 15 the 20 way that allows sex to really be integrated into your life not that destructive way that really tears at your life relationship exactly like eating away at you oh like you said that's that's a very tough way to live very tough way to live i i would love to shine the spotlight on on your books uh as before we got on to recording i was sharing my my fan club books here which i love and i've read every single one um but i i would love to just kind of shout out contemporary male sexuality confronting myths and promoting change

Starting point is 00:48:28 um and dr mccarthy would you like to to talk about the the books available and the resources available for folks and who they're more you know geared towards well most of my writing is toward public folks. And they're all on Amazon. I also, again, technologically, I'm totally confident, but I actually just now have a website called McCarthy on sex.com that list all the books. Wonderful. I will link that I promised to link everything to the show notes. You know, what also is really funny is that the contemporary male sexuality book is basically bought not by men, but by women which is a shame because it's written for men and couples i want women to buy it but i really want men to buy it because i think it really empowers healthy male sexuality and being

Starting point is 00:49:20 a healthy man period and that the old model the double standard model the perfect performance model really subverts you as a male and as a couple. Dr. McCarthy, can you talk to us a little bit about, just a brief overview about these two books that these are with Michael Metz, Dr. Michael Metz. You know, Michael was a really good person, really good psychologist in sex therapy. He died in 2012, but his best-selling book for the lay public is Coping with Erectile Dysfunction. Almost all the material about coping with erectile dysfunction lies to men.

Starting point is 00:50:17 It over-promised perfect sex performance. the real measure of healthy male sexuality whether it's premature ejaculation or erectile dysfunction or jackets or inhibition or low desire is you've got to accept the complexity of who you are as a man you know i'm an old enough clinician and i when i was in my 30s i met bill masters and one of the things that bill master said and michael incorporated that in the book about about erectile dysfunction is he said you know how man you're sure that the man is cured and it was like god speaking to me as a 30 year old psychologist he said whether it happens once a month once every 10 times or once a year when you don't get an erection sufficient for intercourse

Starting point is 00:51:10 and you don't panic you know you're cured see to me that's right that you accept the variability and complexity of male sexuality rather than depending on it as a pass fail test yes and i do think that michael's approach you know when again he died in 2012 and he asked me to do one thing for him after he died and that was to make sure that his book is actually called cognitive behavioral therapy for sexual dysfunction it's a book for clinicians not the lay public but he said make sure it gets published but i really want and it's a good book it's a really good book for clinicians but i think um of all the books for males i think the best of the books for males is the contemporary male sexuality right here folks right there it is

Starting point is 00:52:11 there it is and we will link all these books and your website dr mccarthy to as i said to the show notes and and to the video on youtube as well so folks can easily access that so if folks wanted to connect with you further are there other ways to connect with you or check out more resources well the best way would be the website or let me give you my email address my email address is my name barry mccarthy uh-huh 43 which is my um born 1943 at gmail.com so it's barry mccarthy mcc43 at gmail.com and the website is mccarthy on sex.com that's wonderful thank you so much that's very generous of you to share your email with all of us we appreciate you the long response because i can't type right so i do this that's how i have this one oh that's what well again

Starting point is 00:53:13 so appreciate and also thank you i meant to say this earlier in our conversation about just trusting us to share you know such such parts of yourself that are intimate and can be you know you embraced your vulnerability and you shared it with us so I really wanted to say thank you for for that well again the mind the notion is about a third of vulnerabilities are changeable probably 60 to 65 percent are modifiable but even in the healthiest situation 10 you have to accept and work around this idea of the perfect man is a mistake yeah it really does not help men women or couples yeah yeah well thank you dr mccarthy again thank you so much for sharing your wisdom your expertise your knowledge you're part of yourself with us

Starting point is 00:54:08 today i i really it's an honor and a privilege honestly to have this conversation with you i i'm very grateful and thank you thank you from the bottom of my heart well thank you no this is fun in comparison to uh doing technical things the fact that zoom work i'm always impressed yay the little things right you're like yes and the big things right it's relative well and to i just want to say to our listeners and our viewers as well thank you for being here with us and having this conversation with us and as always in loving wellness for your pelvis this is dr suzy until next time my friend thanks for listening to today's episode be sure to head on over to drsuzyg.com where you can get more information show notes and related articles on

Starting point is 00:54:59 today's topic. Also, if you like what you're hearing, head on over to iTunes, subscribe to the podcast and leave us a rating review. We'd love to hear feedback. Thanks again.

In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G - Male Sexuality with Dr. Barry McCarthy

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