In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G - The Truth of Male Sexual Desire

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi everyone, welcome to another In Your Pants podcast. This is Dr. Susie G. Thank you so much for being here with me today. On today's show, we are going to be unpacking the myths and misconceptions around men, sex, and relationships. And to help me do this, I have a very special guest with me today. Her name is Dr. Sarah Hunter-Murray. Dr. Murray is a registered marriage and family therapist. She obtained her PhD in human sexuality from the University of Guelph. Sarah is a regularly sought after sex and relationship expert and has been featured in numerous media outlets which include Slate, Men's Health Magazine, Huffington Post, and Cosmopolitan. She authors the very

Starting point is 00:01:06 popular Psychology Today blog called Myths of Desire and she's also the author of the book Not Always in the Mood, The New Science of Men, Sex, and Relationships. On today's show Dr. Murray and I unpack the social in air quotes norms and traditional views around what it means to be a man and how that influences a person's sexuality. We also unpack the stereotypes around men and pornography. We talk about men's experience of desirability and we also dive into mainstream culture that often depicts women as wanting to be seduced, romanticized, and cared for. But in Dr. Murray's book, she challenges us not to ignore this same concept in men. And lastly, we dive into feelings of rejection, especially around

Starting point is 00:02:04 sexual rejection and how this impacts men's sexuality, self-esteem, and relationship dynamics. I hope that you enjoyed the show. Thank you so much for watching. And without further ado, let's dive right in. Hi, Sarah. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Hi, Susie. Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. Yes. And I'm so excited to talk about your work and the research that you've done, especially your book, Not Always in the Mood, about the new science of men, sex, and relationships. And I have a lot of questions to pick your brain about. So let's get started with just telling us about that conversation that you had that changed the way you think about men and sex? Yeah, so what I often start by telling

Starting point is 00:02:54 people is, you know, I'm a woman and I'm a cisgender woman, and I have always been super curious about women's sexual desire. I started my research career understanding the complexities of women's sexual desire, when we're in the mood, when we're not, why our desire would decrease over the course relationship, why some women are able to kind of keep that spark alive. And as I went through my research, I started to kind of notice that while we talked a lot about the complexities of women's sexual desire, we never talked about men's sexual desire. There was this assumption that men's desire is high, constant, unwavering, simple, that there was really nothing to research because men are always in the mood to have sex. But then one day I was talking with my office

Starting point is 00:03:38 mate and she was talking about how her husband says that that classic line like anytime you're interested so am I like I'm always down to have sex and she said that he said this kind of in like a dinner party setting you know there was kind of like a bit of an audience but she said to me privately she's like but that's not true like just the other night I asked if he wanted to have sex or initiated and he said he was too tired so like what's going on there um and that was just kind of that turning point for me where I was like yes I think we all are familiar with that line like oh yeah I'm always down and those of us who are in relationships with men know that there's a lot of times where that's not the case and maybe some of us experience it a little more frequently and

Starting point is 00:04:19 some less frequently but the idea that men are always in the mood to have sex just started to feel a little like painting with too broad of a stroke so I was like I need to talk to men and figure out what's really going on here. Wow, that's awesome. Because this research isn't really being done. And you're, it seems like you're the pioneer in this research of kind of answering and asking those questions. And then, you know, gathering the data from men in your office from clinical research. And I also wanted to kind of shift gears into the social norms. So talking to us about what those social norms and traditional views are around what it means to be a man, you know, in air quotes here, and how that influences a men's sexuality.

Starting point is 00:05:04 You're listening to In Your Pants with Dr. Susan Jean, the physiotherapist for your private, helping you get in the know down below. So we see kind of from like evolutionary theory, and I always talk about evolutionary theory in very simple terms. I know it's much more complex, but the idea essentially that, you know, that men have been kind of wired to spread their seed, that it's advantageous to them to be ready to procreate as soon as a female approaches them and is interested. And so we have this idea that men are just biologically wired to have high sex drives. Socially, separate from what we might kind of have internally, we also see these messages that men receive that are very different than what

Starting point is 00:05:48 women receive. And I'm going to particularly talk about the dynamics, you know, in primarily like heterosexual relationships here. But women often receive messages that they are supposed to be the gatekeepers of sex. You know, good girls don't have sex. They wait until you're in love and someone respects you. Men, on the other hand, you know, as young as like younger boys, teenagers are, you know, not necessarily discouraged from masturbating. It's okay to have a sexuality. It's okay to explore your bodies. Again, very different than what young women typically receive from parents and caregivers. And as we get into our teenage years, a lot of men, you know, in high school are rewarded socially for having partners, you know, being like losing their virginity,

Starting point is 00:06:27 being sexually promiscuous, and that tends to kind of continue. So there's this idea that masculine men, this masculinity theory, men want sex. They always have erections. They're always, you know, down like DTF. So I don't know what's appropriate to say on your podcast. go anything and everything go for it down to fuck yes yeah okay so so there's there's permission for that though that like that is how men are supposed to be it's how men are either wired how they're supposed to be to fit into social norms and how they're supposed to behave in order to be perceived as masculine or even hyper masculine and in your experience and in interviewing a lot of of men for your research, how does that influence their sexuality or relationships and even desire? Or

Starting point is 00:07:18 what happens when, you know, there is some ejaculatory control issue or inhibition issue or difficulty? I mean, how do those social constructs really, I guess, shape one's experience with their own bodies and in partnership or coupleship? Yeah. So, I mean, anytime that I've like either interviewed men for my research or when I work with, you know, clients in therapy, if men experience either low desire, and sometimes that's lower than what they've experienced before, right? Sometimes that just might be that they're 30, 40, 50, 60, and their desire is not what it was when they were a teenager, early 20s. Again, very natural, normal progression. but there's that comparison to that earlier stage of their life, or they have lower desire than their partner, or they're just not feeling as much themselves, or they're having difficulties with erections and a lot of other issues. The first thing that typically happens is they say, I don't feel as much of a man as I used to, right? Like that idea of like sexual desire,

Starting point is 00:08:22 sexual functioning, being like inherently part of being a man and any challenges to that, any changes seems to call that into question. So I've heard a lot of men kind of be really hard on themselves, judging their, yeah, manhood, I suppose you could say. They're worried they don't meet like expectations of what's expected for them socially. They don't meet their own expectations of how they've internalized what a man is supposed to be. And again, in the dynamics of, you know, like heterosexual partnered people, I've also heard a lot of men say they worry about what like a woman would think, like, what is my girlfriend or wife going to think? Is she going to judge me? Is she going to see me as less of a man? And, and it's, so it's kind of hitting

Starting point is 00:09:08 on all of those levels, but I hear that refrain very frequently in both my research and my clinical practice. Okay. And that, as you're saying, it impacts every, not just what's happening in the bedroom but also permeates through one's whole life and identity and relationship with oneself self-esteem um you know dating and and all those thoughts are kind of percolating and and what that does with you know all all of our being really um and that can be really distressing and it also sounds like it's a lot of pressure um for one person to you know have you know if these are these perfectionistic these standards these expectations that we are fed tech you know technically or these you know internalized messages um you know and when we're

Starting point is 00:10:00 not meeting up to those expectations that are standards um you know again how that plays into one's self-esteem relationships um turning towards each other you know in difficult times as far as an intimate you know sexy team you know how that all kind of yeah plays into one's yeah identity and sexual health sexual health is part of health um but as you're saying yeah penis performance um historically has been kind of tied to air quotes here masculinity right yeah and what was really interesting for me in my research is that um you know men that i talked to were very aware of these masculine norms right and they could be somewhat critical of them they could say that doesn't seem fair or that doesn't apply to me or that sounds like just

Starting point is 00:10:46 locker room talk but also they had difficulties when they didn't fit into it right so it was kind of like I feel like there's some movement here where we can be a little bit more critical and say like do we have to all fit into this tiny little box of expectations and is it fair and what about acknowledging this variation but some of the men I talked to actually talked about feigning sexual desire in order to try to meet expectations that sometimes they would initiate sex that they weren't particularly excited to have because that was what was expected of them particularly again with like a girlfriend or wife like when the partner was a woman um that sometimes they would just say yes to sex that they didn't really feel like having because

Starting point is 00:11:26 the idea was men aren't supposed to say no i'm supposed to be in the mood especially if she's interested and so there was a lot of really complicated ways that men were navigating their own true experiences and wondering how authentic they could be in that expression of their sexual desire and like sexual activity, given that there are these expectations that they were just so aware of and, you know, difficulties that showed up when they kind of broke from the mold. And it also sounds like just vulnerability, having a safe space or trust to lean into that vulnerable space, which, you know, historically, again, from the traditional view of masculinity or being a man, right. Being vulnerable in that sense is like, well,

Starting point is 00:12:11 that's a weakness, right? Or I shouldn't be sharing my emotions, or I shouldn't be feeling that. And so I think it's the bigger conversation of, you know, being vulnerable with your emotion with yourself, in partnership as a human being is part of a human experience. And yet, you know, you have social, mainstream, social, cultural and mainstream messages that are said, No, you shouldn't. That makes it very challenging, you know, to be able to express one's needs, desires, communication, which actually enhances, and you can speak to this about, enhances one's sexual experience or sexual intimacy and beyond, you could imagine. Absolutely. And I see that a lot as this kind of, you know, for men, this go it alone, like they're not even sharing a lot of

Starting point is 00:13:02 times with their partners, sometimes taking Viagra and not telling their partners that they've been struggling, not telling them that they haven't been as excited about sex, not like feeling like able to kind of communicate it. And what I find particularly in the clinical setting is that when men are a little bit more open about that, when they feel comfortable sharing, when they take that risk to be a bit more vulnerable, you know, it's so helpful for a partner to be able to understand like everything that we're experiencing, this idea of pressure, like I need to be in the mood and my penis needs to respond to the second that my mind is in the mood or vice versa like that just that I need to be on um going it alone I mean I just think adds to that pressure right it turns into

Starting point is 00:13:43 a performance that I need to get ready to have this partnered activity instead of acknowledging that we both and you know in some cases more than two partners but like you know for this case you know with both of us play a role in in setting a stage that's comfortable and sexy and arousing for both of us and if someone's kind of hiding or like not disclosing a lot of the fears and pressures that they're experiencing I mean it's just another wall or a barrier to to true intimacy right right and that brings me into uh this next question as far as you know in mainstream it's often depicted that women you know love being seduced and romanced and cared for and yet um in your book you'll challenge you challenge that actually you challenge us not to ignore this for

Starting point is 00:14:28 men as well. Could you please expand on this for us? Yeah, I'd be happy to. And it's one of my favorite findings, actually, in the research. So yeah, so I'll start by talking about the traditional norms we have, again, particularly when men and women are in relationships with each other. Men are encouraged to be the ones to initiate sexual activity, to kind of push to the next level of sexual activity. They're the ones that kind of, you know, do the desiring. They make women feel wanted on a date they'll show up with flowers I mean we still have kind of like norms about men giving women like beautiful rings for their you know engagements like they're the ones who kind of make women feel really special you look so beautiful I love that color on you

Starting point is 00:15:10 is that a new dress like these are the comments that we're used to hearing and what I thought was really interesting and not something that I asked about directly but just kind of showed up spontaneously in my first set of interviews is that men were talking about how they wanted to feel desired to, that they didn't want to always be the chaser, the pursuer, the one doing the desiring, that they wanted to feel wanted in return. And these things are funny for me to talk about, like the more time that's passed and the more time I've done the research, because I'm like, oh my gosh, of course. But still, it's amazing to me how often that's new information for people. I hear a lot of men say like, yes, that's what I've been trying to say. Like, I want

Starting point is 00:15:47 to feel wanted to, I want to feel desired to, and having that language has been helpful for them. um and women in a lot of cases haven't really considered am I doing things to make him feel desired like do I tell him that he's cute do I tell him that I think his butt's like sexy do I you know go up and touch him out of the blue in kind of a flirtatious or even romantic way do I tell him like that I'm interested in sex do I kind of initiate it and there's a lot of women that I talk to who kind of you know do an honest like reflection and say not a lot I mean there's obviously exceptions to every rule. But there's a lot of women I talked to who kind of think like, yeah, I don't know if I really considered that. I don't know if I really do those things.

Starting point is 00:16:28 And I'll just be clear. There's a lot of good reasons that women don't always do those things is because again, these social norms teach us not to, we're taught to wait for men to come to us. So the idea of breaking that mold can actually be really challenging for some women. I've never considered how to assert my sexuality. I've never considered, do we have sex when I'm in the mood like I'm used to being like okay he said he is and do I feel like it or not so this can be really challenging if we've grown up with kind of really dominant social norms and again I think some of us have broke free from them earlier sometimes we break free from them more easily but I work with a lot of people who these are very deeply ingrained

Starting point is 00:17:03 social and sexual scripts that takes a lot of time to kind of relearn but men again in my study talked about the importance of feeling desired. And so it's not just that they wanted a female partner or their wife or girlfriend to initiate sex. I mean, that's big and exciting and important, but again, it could be just receiving compliments. It could be like a brushing of my shoulder. Like when she walks by, you know, squeezing my butt or like rubbing my back. Like, honestly, it was so many beautiful kind of romantic examples of how men felt desired. That wasn't just over the top overt sex. And I just thought that was so important to kind of acknowledge. And I love getting a chance to speak about it because I think it really changes dynamics in relationships to kind of

Starting point is 00:17:50 consider that, to consider like some of the softer, more responsive parts of men's desire and their sexuality than we typically talk about. Yeah. And it's closing that desirability gap, right? Like, you know, between this dualistic, you know, gender role, again, in a traditional sense of what does that look like for me for you and oh what if we happen to cross right and when we both desire the same things to be loved to be cared for to be to feel sexy to feel wanted and another beautiful segue not planned for sure but it's a rejection I'm you mentioned this in your book as well you know and we no one likes to feel rejected everyone wants to feel loved cared for sexy, as you're saying, desirable, wanted. So how does sexual rejection impact men's sexuality? I

Starting point is 00:18:44 guess let's talk about what the traditional views or social sexual scripts around rejection are and really what the research is saying. Yeah. So again, with this idea that men are the ones who do the initiating, there's kind of this assumption that like, you must be expecting to get shot down. You must be just putting yourself out there all the time because you're just horny all the time and you're just kind of like, you know, throwing and seeing what sticks or whatever that expression is. And like, you know that there's going to be some no's in there. So that's kind of the expectation. It can't hurt that much because of course you're going to get some no's. What I found from the research is that initiating sex is actually a very vulnerable experience

Starting point is 00:19:25 for men. And I think that happens at all times, but I particularly notice in a clinical setting that that can kind of get increasingly vulnerable over the course of a longer term relationship, which I think is a bit counterintuitive to people. Like the more comfortable you get with a partner, the more that, um, you know, you should feel safe and close. And while that's true, the safer and closer we feel to someone, the deeper their, you know, rejection can hurt. Right. So, um, you know, men were talking about how initiating sex is vulnerable because it's not just about getting off. It's not just a physical experience. Um, it's not something that they're just kind of approaching like with this, you know, um, you know, willy nilly, like it's,

Starting point is 00:20:03 it's meaningful. Like it's a way to connect. It's a way to experience closeness and connection and intimacy. And so when they're putting themselves out there, um, many of my research were talking about how much it hurt, um, when their partner wasn't in the mood. And what I really like to be clear about here is there's always going to be times where one person's in the mood and the other person's not, and it's always okay to say no to sex that you don't want. However, it's kind of the way that we say no that I think has an impact right if we're kind of dismissive like oh you just want to get laid it has nothing to do with me we can be kind of like you know dismissive eye roll like get out of here whatever roll over it can be kind of in that mean harsh category

Starting point is 00:20:44 what I think it's important to kind of acknowledge is what are men really looking for when they're initiating sex is it okay to feel horny and just want to you know have some physical pleasure like yes sex should feel good ideally but are we ignoring that it's a lot more complex than that and in some cases a lot a lot more complex than that you know all those emotional things that men might be looking for and so if we aren't in the mood perfectly acceptable but can we acknowledge that there's a bit for connection there he wants to feel closer to me how am I responding to that if I'm not in the mood for sex I can say you know what not tonight but maybe do want to cuddle you know it's been a really long day I'm just not there maybe we could have like

Starting point is 00:21:26 a talk instead and we could try again tomorrow maybe I'll initiate next time like it's just not there for me today but kind of just being a little bit more gentle with that interaction and I think there's a lot of damage that can happen when we're not aware of that so it's kind of like this two part collaboration for how to kind of you know make some changes here I often when I'm working with, with men in therapy, I encourage them to kind of express like, what are you getting from sexual activity? Like what, what motivates you? I mean, you have to be honest about it. If you are taking the approach, like I'm just wanting to get off and you're the only socially acceptable person to have sex with, then yeah, she's probably going to be dismissive if she's

Starting point is 00:22:07 not in the mood. Cause that doesn't feel so nice. But if you want to feel close, if you want that connection, if you just want to touch and have a sexual or intimate moment, and you get so many more things from sex, which again, from my experience, most men would say there's a lot of things that fall in that category for them. You need to be able to express that. So she understands because again, we're all raised in a society that minimizes and simplifies men's sexuality. We all need a reminder of what's truly going on here. Right. And it sounds like that's especially important when there's chronic illness or sexual pain. I work with men who have sexual pain and it is often very difficult to one be able to express one's needs and communicate like

Starting point is 00:22:50 you know this might feel better or like you're saying you know just not tonight I'm feeling really bogged down with the physical pain I'm experiencing the emotional pain I might be having and so it's really important I think what you're saying here is is to give permission for folks to communicate with one another as far as you know where they're at in that moment and it doesn't mean that they dislike each other or that one person is responsible for the other's pleasure right it's it's more of um just taking ownership and naming that hey you know today is just one of those lousy days and um like you're saying what if we did something else or how can we connect in other ways that still might be pleasurable and satisfying and erotic um and yet still um respect

Starting point is 00:23:37 that protective buffer of of um whether that's anxiety or or pain or otherwise really yeah yeah all really good points yeah um now this might be a sharp segue but i have a question because you mentioned pornography in your book as well and i always it's a hot topic and i know it's very controversial and and we know this but i i was curious just from just kind of sticking with like your research around it particularly around again the cultural stigma that they're not stigma but the mainstream cultural view that men are obsessed with porn um it seems like what you gathered from your research that this isn't the case and your clinical observations um steer you otherwise so can you tell us more about you know how do men feel about porn and what are the most

Starting point is 00:24:32 common reasons men choose to watch porn over having sex. And you're right. There's people who study porn and know, you know, a lot more than what I'm about to share, but I'm just going to speak to like my research and what kind of came up in my experience and my clinical, my research and clinical experience. The thing that kind of struck me is that as I was interviewing men, we started to get to this point when I was kind of looking at my results with my committee at the time when I was doing my dissertation. And we just noticed we're like, nobody's talking about porn. Like I'm asking men about their sex lives. I'm asking about sexual desire. I'm talking about their relationships and like nothing is spontaneously coming up about watching porn.

Starting point is 00:25:09 I also know as most people do that, like most men report watching porn. So I was trying to figure out like, how do these things kind of intertwine? And so at one point my, um, my advisor said like, well, maybe you should ask more directly, like be like, do you watch porn or like, it hasn't come up yet. And just kind of like probe about it a little bit more just to see where it falls in. Um, so I guess my first reaction was like, it was so interesting to me that it was almost like this, like non-finding. I was like, I'm asking you about your sexuality, your sexual desires, like what that looks like. And porn is just not part of the picture. So I thought that was like an interesting thing right off the hop. When I did ask men about watching

Starting point is 00:25:46 porn, you know, they kind of acknowledged like, yes, I watch, you know, and you know, again, obviously there's some differences. Some people say a lot, some people say a little bit here and there. Um, but the way they talked about their relationship with porn was a little bit different that I might've anticipated kind of downplaying how important it was. It's kind of like the side thing. Like I do it sometimes when my partner's out of town or when it's been a long time between sex. But yeah, I think there's like, again, this idea that men are, you know, again, sex crazed. So like, of course they're watching porn all the time. They want the, like the kind of sex that they're watching on porn. They want it to look that way. They want it to be that way. But I mean,

Starting point is 00:26:24 at the end of the day, porn is always entertainment, right? It doesn't, I mean, there's some porn that aims to be a little bit more natural and authentic but for the most part this is like you know a romance you know Hollywood movie like sex doesn't look like that romance doesn't look like that dates don't look like that you know and but what we're drawn to it because it's like fun and entertaining when men were talking about porn they talked about it like you know one of the quotes that always stands out to me is like it's either like going on your own vacation or watching someone else's pictures of their vacation like I would way rather go on my own vacation I would really rather have sexual activity with my partner but it doesn't always work that way

Starting point is 00:27:01 there's times where one of us is in mood and the other is not there's times where maybe there's some conflict and even if we're both feeling horny we just don't feel like we can overcome that emotional like barrier at that time to connect um sexually intimately that way um and also like when there are more problems if men experience anxiety around their performance if there's kind of some pressure that's starting to show up during sex men also talked about how porn was a way to have kind of lower stakes sexual experiences the pressure was less they didn't have to worry as much like if I don't get an erection like maybe I have feelings about it but I don't also have to manage what my partner thinks about it you know we're not having penetrative sex so it doesn't

Starting point is 00:27:42 like maybe lead to her feeling let down and like that can happen depending on how couples navigate that. It just kind of lets all those things just go off to the side and just lets them kind of reduce that anxiety and pressure. And then they can kind of just get off on their own without having to worry about as much. So it's interesting to me, because again, when I work with like couples, especially, I mean, I think identifying like, what is your true level of sexual desire? Like, when is it showing up? And you know, when it's like, oh, we haven't had sex in a while and asking about masturbation and watching pornography, if that's happening on the side, and there's not partnered sexual activity, you know, I'm like right in there asking, so what's going on there

Starting point is 00:28:22 and what makes you lean towards that? And, you know, if we could reduce your anxiety and some of this pressure, would you maybe kind of be more willing to kind of share that again? There's a lot of opportunities to kind of explore and, and, and kind of increase, you know, intimacy and, and like sexual connection for couples when we kind of figure out what's making that more appealing in your opinion Sarah when would or does it ever is there ever a problem or an issue like when would porn get in the way I guess or or when does it is there a line that would be crossed as far as it being problematic in some way whether yeah I guess I'm going to leave that question open. Sure. I mean, and it's a great question and a difficult one because there's no,

Starting point is 00:29:11 you know, if you watch porn once a week, that's good. If it's 10 times a week, that's a problem. Like if you watch it every day, that's like, there's no clear cut line. Really what I do when I'm working with people is, you know, how do you feel about your porn use? Like, does it feel too much for you? Are you dissatisfied? Do you want to be having more partnered sexual activity and porn is a distractor? Are we talking about compulsive pornography use where it's interfering with your wellbeing, your relationships, your ability to get to work on time. You know, then that we start talking about maybe some concerning behaviors that we need to talk about. The thing that gets a little tricky when we're talking about partners is one person might

Starting point is 00:29:45 think that my porn use is completely fine. Like I'm just using it here and there. It's just for fun. It's just entertainment. Like anytime you're interested, I'm still happy to like connect with you, but the other partner might feel, well, I don't like it. Maybe I have moral objections to it. Maybe it makes me feel insecure. Maybe it makes me feel disconnected from you. Maybe it makes me question like what sex you want and whether I can provide that. Like those are where some messy situations come from where there's not necessarily a clear cut answer. Like you both have your perspectives and if they're different, we have to find some way to navigate this as a couple. So a really great question, but a really challenging one that I think is really

Starting point is 00:30:23 case by case and client by client. Absolutely. And I didn't mean to put you on the spot, but I always like having this conversation as far as, you know, what your, what people's thoughts are. And because a lot of the folks that I work with also have that. And I also, I'm gathering too, just from my clinical observation that when we talk about men and sexuality or bring up masturbation or pornography or sexual imagery, that there's stigma around that and shame, again, depending on that person's upbringing, spiritual, religious beliefs and culture, like that all, and I think has a role or plays into one's experience or how one feels about masturbation or porn. And that goes for their partner or partners, right? As you mentioned, you know,

Starting point is 00:31:10 how that person feels about it and what does that all mean? And so, yes, it can be a very complex and deep conversation to have for sure and should be certainly individualistic. yeah yeah well thank you for diving into that territory more questions and answers there perhaps but no no it's great again just even having these conversations and to to share with folks as far as like you know again there is no one way to have sex there is no one way to experience sexuality I think it's really important because it doesn't make people feel siloed or isolated or quote unquote, not normal when we're not being matched up to these very unrealistic expectations that are being presented to us. So yeah. And so how do I

Starting point is 00:32:06 initiate this conversation and feel safe doing it? Any tips for that? Well, my first reaction is, I mean, let's just acknowledge that yes, these conversations aren't easy to have, right. And that's, that's not a reason to not have them. It's just a reality. They are hard. It does require vulnerability. We are opening up about something personal about ourselves and without knowing how that other person is going to respond. You know, you just talked about kind of like a potential new partner. It sounded like that was the language. And so, you know, when I'm working with clients who are dating and they're kind of figuring out how do I bridge these issues with a new partner? I mean I think there's something to to be said for you know get to know someone a little bit

Starting point is 00:32:49 right if you're talking about something that's a little bit more personal it doesn't have to be the first thing that comes out in you know date one like you can take time to figure out is this someone who feels comfortable and safe and how do I kind of let them in just a little bit into my experience if it's like a longer term partner and that's when I see like a lot of couples in my practice you know there's changes that happen over the course of relationship and it can be really hard to switch the conversation after we're used to sex looking like this for however long sometimes decades and then it all of a sudden looks quite different being open and honest and just kind of starting to say you know what there's just some things that I want to talk about some

Starting point is 00:33:28 things feel different acknowledging this is kind of hard to talk about like there's no clear-cut easy you know how to but I think acknowledging that it's hard you know taking the risk almost in all cases from my experience is the partner wants to know like there's no good from like hiding that like oh it's not so bad or like no I'm fine we can always kind of get a sense that like our partner's got something on their mind and I think the more that we just kind of take the risk and open up about that experience the better and I think a helpful way of entering some of these topics especially I'm going to kind of shift again to my wheelhouses a bit more like the longer-term relationships is you know to just kind of say you know what are the norms out there like

Starting point is 00:34:14 what did you learn about sex as a kid or like as a teenager or like what do you think about like stereotypes about men's sexual desire or sexuality what do we think about stereotypes about women's sexual desire or sexuality are there any ways that that fits for you and are there ways that maybe it doesn't so just something that kind of acknowledges that there are these norms out there and like can we talk about where we fit into that mold and the places that we don't. Another of my favorite questions, and I think most sex therapists would probably agree, is asking couples to like remember their most positive sexual encounter, right? Like tell me about one of the best times you had sex and what was going on. And we can kind of explore the other parts that often are not just the

Starting point is 00:34:57 penetration, right? It was like we had this really special moment together. I remember we were like on vacation or we carved out this time to be together. We spent so much time making out. I remember just kind of lying in bed naked for hours, like, and remembering that sex can be so much more and sexuality can be expressed in so many more ways than just this, like, you know, penetration or, you know, even things that we call foreplay, like it can include all of those things. And I think that also kind of helps people kind of be able to focus on all the other things they like and it feels good and just kind of have a different conversation. Right. And it sounds even just like deepening their experiences of eroticism, pleasure, satisfaction, and emotional

Starting point is 00:35:36 connection. And that I know even through my brief research on, you know, masculinity and men and sex that the emotional connection is really important to have that trust. And even just for issues like performance worry or having performance anxiety and how that impacts erectile function, you know, those experiences are quite common and also normal to have especially if for you as an individual it's important to find that connection and that trust and to to show to to participate in that um you know in a vulnerable um connection like that and so again i think just normalizing um things and having this be the message would really maybe put us out of a job right like no one would need us then um so hoping right right exactly exactly and creating just a

Starting point is 00:36:35 more sex positive and a sex positive world um i wanted to share i know um off the air we were talking about some uh for a couple ships long term short term and there are all sorts of different um i guess additions or card games but this one that um i find like that's fun it's called skin deep or the skin deep and if you go on their website that have all sorts of like um i guess topics but it kind of goes through some questions like um you know and let's say one of them are are you concerned that my body will change over time you know um there's all sorts of like in in the time we have shared together when have you felt resentment towards me and why i mean they're like deep connect they're deep questions um and it's also just um just yeah it just opens

Starting point is 00:37:25 up the conversation and like more of a playful way and more of a safe way and it can it can be a card game so if that's if that's what you're into you can check it out as far as initiating um some convert icebreaker conversations um and getting to know each other as human beings and people that change over time so i just wanted to share that for folks Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, Sarah, thank you so much again for sharing all that beautiful wisdom and such great advice. I just love having this conversation. I've said this probably several times throughout our time together, but I think these are important conversations to have, and especially talking about men and sex, because it's not a conversation that's easily or done in a

Starting point is 00:38:11 frequency that we would probably hope for. So I'm so glad and very thankful for your book, the not always in the mood. I'm thankful for the research that you've done. So much gratitude for what you're doing for your clients and those who you're impacting by your work. So thank you. Oh, that's awesome. Thank you so much for having me and for your kind words. I've enjoyed talking with you. Yes. And Sarah, where can listeners, if they wanted to connect with you or follow you on social media, where can they find you and connect with you? Yeah. So my website is www.sarahhuntermurray.com um i'm on twitter as sex doctor sarah um and i have a blog for psychology today um called myths of desire um so i think that's just googleable oh that's awesome

Starting point is 00:38:57 and we'll make sure to link that in the show notes for everyone so it's easily accessible and is there anything any anything new that you're working on in in in life in your career any other research adventures or um right now I'm just kind of uh focusing on the clinical stuff the demand is high right now and so that's kind of taking up a lot of my time and energy um but my research focuses a lot on um uh like cisgender men and heterosexual relationships and I have just been really looking for opportunities to kind of expand to see um where there may be differences or similarities or overlap um when we talk about you know um queer and uh you know bisexual trans men like I just am so curious about like where these things um overlap and maybe diverge to be

Starting point is 00:39:43 able to kind of talk to a more diverse population so oh that's awesome yes oh definitely I'm so excited and look forward to reading your research and hearing more about your work in the future again Sarah thank you so much for being on the show and for all our listeners and viewers out there. Thank you so much for watching and listening. As always, and loving wellness for your pelvis. This is Dr. Susie G. Thanks for listening to today's episode. Be sure to head on over to drsusieg.com where you can get more information, show notes and related articles on today's topic. Also, if you like what you're hearing, head on over to iTunes, subscribe to the podcast and leave us a rating review. We'd love to hear feedback. Thanks again.

In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G - The Truth of Male Sexual Desire

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