In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G - Top Dating Tips for Men: Navigating Intimacy and Sexual Health

Starting point is 00:00:00 on this episode are you okay with me using the word pussy do you use pussy absolutely go for it so i can i can feel my pussy relax and like open up to you're listening to the in your pants podcast i'm your host dr suzy gronski your penis friendly pelvic health physical therapist sex counselor and educator helping you get in the know down below On today's show, we're diving into the complexities surrounding men's experiences in dating, intimacy, and sexuality, shedding light on the challenges often masked by societal expectations. Our exploration involves dismantling myths and internalized narratives that shape the lives of men and their partners sexually and beyond. We also discuss how thoughts and beliefs

Starting point is 00:01:01 can influence our capacity for pleasure and physiological functions like erections and ejaculation. For those seeking support to enhance their sexual confidence and skills, our guest Erica Davian provides insights into the advantages of collaborating with a surrogate partner or a dating and intimacy coach. Erica, a certified surrogate partner through the International Surrogate Partner Association and a recognized dating and intimacy coach, shares her expertise with us. Erica specializes in supporting men with little to no romantic experience by guiding them towards greater confidence and comfort both in and outside the bedroom. Her focus lies in empowering men to navigate their internal challenges,

Starting point is 00:01:51 fostering a reduction in anxiety, and enabling them to authentically express themselves. For more dating tips, check out Erica's podcast, Bachelor to Boyfriend, and her website, ericadavian.com. And that's Erica with a K. I hope you enjoy the show. Erica, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Well, Erica, let's start off by helping us understand what surrogate partner therapy is. Yeah, absolutely. So surrogate partner therapy is like a form of psychotherapy where if a client has been working with a traditional psychotherapist for a while and that therapist is starting to recognize like, hey, you've been working on these intimacy issues for some time, and now you need to

Starting point is 00:02:45 go and put things into practice. But obviously, the therapist cannot play that role with the client. The therapist may suggest that the client start working with someone like me, a surrogate partner who can then be brought onto the case. And a really simple way of thinking about it is that I'm like the client's practice partner who they get to experience deepening levels of emotional and physical intimacy with that they can then take back to their work with their therapist who's going to help them unpack the things that came up. So what should someone expect as far as the process in general with surrogate partner therapy? Yeah. So surrogate partner therapy always starts at the beginning of just getting to know one another. Really simple

Starting point is 00:03:36 hands-on exercises that might literally involve holding hands or using hands on the face. Generally very safe areas of the body. And then as the process goes on, it starts off with this idea of sensate focus. Being able to put your awareness on exactly what you're feeling without any judgment at all, just noticing temperature and texture and pressure, things like that. Once those skills are mastered, the process then can move on to things like nudity, sort of a sexual re-education where clients are able to ask questions that maybe they still had left hanging from the, you know, incomplete sex ed that they had growing up, where they get to really ask like questions that maybe they felt too silly to ask anywhere else. And just becoming really comfortable in the body,

Starting point is 00:04:34 in its naked, unclothed state, but still without any sexual energy in the room. And then if it makes sense for the client's goals, and if everybody feels comfortable and safe, it can start to move into bringing in erotic and sexual energy into the space as well. And starting to work like with one another in that way. And you also do dating and intimacy coaching with men. So help us understand the difference between intimacy coaching versus surrogate partner therapy. I am so glad you asked that because there's a really big difference. So first of all, surrogate partner therapy, it's a beautiful process and something that I wish we all had access to. However, it is really time consuming, very, very costly, and often very

Starting point is 00:05:33 inconvenient, right? Because you have to find that client in the circuit, have to physically meet up in person. So all of that can really make it a very good option for some people, but it's often really the last resort. It's also something that's done in conjunction with a therapist, always. And not everybody really responds well to being in therapy. And so I started offering coaching as a different way of helping men with a lot of the same issues that they experience in surrogate partner therapy, but offering it more from a coaching perspective where we're working one-on-one online, clothes are on the entire time, but we're taking a look at what's going on in their mind and how that's impacting how they're showing up on the outside and even how their body is showing up

Starting point is 00:06:28 in different situations, whether it's creating anxiety, whether it's making it difficult to get or maintain an erection, whether it's making it difficult to get the words out to ask a woman out. So coaching is entirely focused on what's going on in the mind while still having this sense of that mind-body connection and how it might be having an impact on how someone is showing up in the bedroom. And we'll definitely go into more of that as far as the mind-body connection and the internal barriers that men face. But before we dive into those, I'm curious, why men? It's a very unique situation as a provider. I myself can relate because we're like unicorns that we really, we exclusively work with penis owners. So why did you choose

Starting point is 00:07:24 to work with men? Yeah, well, I think I'm going to echo essentially what you said the first time we spoke, which was because I don't see other people out there offering it. You know, especially when it comes to men who are really struggling to make connections with women, or maybe they're able to make the connections, but they find that their relationships don't last very long or don't ever tend to go that deep. A lot of men are at a loss of where do you go to figure these things out? And particularly when it comes to the dating stuff, it's like, you're not going to go talk to your doctor about that necessarily, right? Like, how do I ask a woman out? But also your therapist might not be willing to hold your hand throughout that process. And so I just, I've really started

Starting point is 00:08:11 to see, you know, a lot of the men in my own life who were really struggling, and they would turn to me as their friend to talk to about these things. But most friends give pretty terrible advice. And so and really, like the answer was already in them, right? And so as their friend, I really saw it more as my role to just help them think through how they wanted to approach the dating journey, how they wanted to come to intimacy and like who they wanted to be in those moments. And I essentially took that and then got training in surrogate partner therapy and coaching so that I could take all of that questioning that I was already doing with my friends, my family, and bring that into a space where I could offer that to more men.

Starting point is 00:09:01 that's wonderful really i applauding all over here because because it is very rare it is very rare and and one might say you know some might say that men are not really an underserved population in our social cultural society but in pelvic and sexual health and intimacy and dating and coaching they really are yeah they they really are underserved in that in those realms and I'm sure many others but this is just my personal experience right and and at best they're fed like just strategies or they're just told advice without really getting to the underlying issue of, well, why are you second guessing yourself in the first place? Why is this anxiety coming up? Why are you lacking in confidence? And I think a lot of men can so easily get in this trap of

Starting point is 00:10:07 thinking like, oh, it's just some strategy that I'm missing out on. Like I don't have the right words or the right pickup line, or I didn't wear the right shoes or, um, you know, what do I say next kind of thing. And that's what most dating coaches out there offer is like the specific things you should say and, or exactly what you should wear on a date. And what I like to say is like, honey, it does not matter what you wear on a date or the exact words that come out in that text that you're writing. If you've got some crappy story about yourself playing over and over in your head. And so that's what I help them to do is to address what's going on on the inside and learn how to self coach so that when they're in those moments, when I'm not at their side

Starting point is 00:10:54 anymore, that they're on that first date or they're in bed with her for the first time that they're able to look at what's going on there and talk to themselves with kindness and putting themselves in a direction that's going to help them open up rather than shut down. Speaking of crappy and unhealthy narratives, let's talk about that. In your experience working with men, what are some of these unhealthy narratives or internalized barriers and beliefs that men struggle with? Oh, my gosh, so many. A big one that I notice is a belief that in some way, they're not enough, right, that they don't have enough experience, or that's really the biggest one is like not having enough experience, whether they've had, you know,

Starting point is 00:11:48 one date or, you know, we're married once, right? Like that idea, like what is enough? And so often when that comes up, when somebody's in that belief of I'm not experienced enough, then what can tend to happen is they shy away from doing the kinds of things that would actually help them get more experience in the first place. And so they can, you can hold on to like, that's what you believe today. That's a really easy belief to hold on to for the next decade or too. And some men definitely do that. So that's a big one. I think a lot of thoughts and beliefs underlying the idea that dating and intimacy is about performance in some way, that they need to impress or show off or somehow convince a woman to like him. That's a big one.

Starting point is 00:12:42 also sort of in the same way that this idea that of not having enough not being enough can lead to not doing the things that would actually improve the enoughness that also comes up with time right so when somebody feels like they are already behind like they're already behind their peers and so now they're afraid to show up and do the things that might help them move past the obstacles that they were facing in the first place I can tell you're really taking that in hearing that like does that come up in your work too yeah definitely so many parallels to when when and people their entryway to connecting with our practice is there's a physical problem whether that's sexual pain, sexual dysfunction, or something that is just really getting in the way.

Starting point is 00:13:43 And I'm quotes here, air quotes here. And in my experience working with men, it's framed as a me problem. This is my problem. I'm broken. I need to be fixed. if I just fix this problem, then all of my issues are going to go away. And that's not to say that certainly if we address comfort in one's body, addressing confidence, rebuilding resilience and reassurance and trust in oneself and abilities, that certainly everything else

Starting point is 00:14:30 is also going to reap the benefits of that process but the main at the core men there's a sense of i i need to take ownership 100 for what's going on and there's a blame and all sometimes mixed with shame i was about to say shame that that that that they are not show that that whatever's going on for them is a big mismatch to the expectations that the world has placed on them. And so that's a lot of pressure, not only, I mean, we're talking pressure, pressure, pressure, not just with performance, but pressure to be able to quote, man up, grit and bear it, go through this, get it done, fix it, check the box on the list and move on. This kind of like the siloed, it's just me and I need to do this, right? And if I don't

Starting point is 00:15:39 do this, then everything else is going to fall apart because it's my fault, right? And I love what you said about being siloed. And I think that comes back again to why I do this work, why you do this work is that so many men are in the belief that they're the only one dealing with this, right? That everybody else has it figured out in some way, or that they've just chosen not to have a partner, right? But that like, everybody else somehow figured has figured this out, except for them. And therefore, it's this shortcoming of theirs, rather than like you said, a mismatch of these expectations, right? Or these unrealistic expectations being placed on men all the time and thinking that they should or have to live into those.

Starting point is 00:16:24 Exactly. Or even the pressure to figure out women and what they like. I should know how to give my partner an orgasm, for example. And without asking her anything. Right. Exactly. Without having the conversation of what is it that you like? I often use this this analogy of an itch that you're looking to scratch, you know, have scratched. If you have an itch and you want someone to scratch it and you can't reach it, how on earth is someone supposed to scratch it without getting feedback from you? You know what I mean? I love that. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And unfortunately, you know, this is not, these expectations are very

Starting point is 00:17:13 real right it's not as though this is something that men have made up in their heads but you know some women actually do put that pressure on their men partners right and say like well you should know like exactly please be in bed like even if it's their first time together or they've been together a while right like yeah yeah yeah or or the expectation is for the man to know everything about sex everything and anything right to show up in a particular way to perform in a particular way to engage in a partnered connected experience but they're the ones taking the lead right well what about their partner what about their need what about the person you know the person who's quote unquote expected to be the leader and to give what about receiving what about sharing

Starting point is 00:18:05 in that experience. What about what your needs are as a person, as a human being? How do you like to be touched as a man? You know, how do you express yourself to your partner, right? Because you deserve that too. That's something so interesting that I can bring from the surrogate partner therapy perspective is that, like I said, at the beginning of that process is this thing called sensate focus where you're just noticing how something feels in your body right again without any judgment of any kind and what and and being honest and like true to that and so I think a lot of men have you know sort of absorbed these ideas that they should want physical intimacy that is like you know rough and hard and focused on penetration and what's so interesting that I've

Starting point is 00:18:59 been able to see in my work as a surrogate partner is that many men really, truly prefer really light, really gentle touch. Or, you know, maybe if it's not a preference, they also like that in addition with other types of touch. And yet they've been told and conditioned their whole lives that, you know, that's the kind of touch that like a woman should want, or that they shouldn't really like that very gentle, slow, soft touch. And what a shame, right? I mean, that would be like living your whole life with that itch and being told that nobody should ever touch you in the way that would actually scratch it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And it's liberating to deconstruct some of those unhealthy narratives and seeds that were planted by other people

Starting point is 00:19:57 socially, culturally, religiously, spiritually, et cetera, that those aren't yours. And perhaps that there's a lot more to your experience and you as a human being than what we were told, you know, starting to question that a little bit more. And speaking of beliefs and thoughts, I want to segue into what you had mentioned earlier about, you know, our thoughts and what we think and our beliefs really impact our behavior, how we show up in the world and engage in relationships, but also physiologically, there's actual changes that happen in our bodies that reflect what's going on in our mind. So can you talk to us about that?

Starting point is 00:20:46 How do our thoughts and beliefs shape our behavior and physiology, especially around like sexual functioning and erectile difficulties, for example, or ejaculation issues. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm sure you are much better at talking about the medical side of all of that. But generally what I talk to clients about is the importance of relaxation, of being in a relaxed state, because that's where erections can come from, right? When we're in that parasympathetic rest and digest state, that's when our bodies have the ability to create those erections in the first place. And so if we sort of backtrack then and recognize that when we're not feeling some version of like that pleasant, relaxed, easygoing state, when instead we're feeling

Starting point is 00:21:43 pressure or worry or anxiety, then of course it makes sense that an erection wouldn't happen in those moments. And I find it really helpful from a coaching perspective to really take responsibility for my feelings, for the way that I feel, and to see that connection between what I'm thinking and how what I'm thinking or believing is generating a certain feeling within me. And that feeling state is ultimately going to determine how my body is showing up. I mean, we can even see that in little things like if you have ever noticed yourself, for example, thinking about all the things on your to-do list, and now you're starting to feel a little anxious and you notice your shoulders shrugging and you're like, oh gosh, drop, drop my shoulders,

Starting point is 00:22:43 right? It, it has, it is completely connected. And yet there are so many men out there who want to think of, um, their generals as just their body and not see that connection to what's going on in their mind. They just want the thing that's going to fix their body. and that's what i was mentioning that that people usually reach out to our practice with sexual dysfunction and saying you know i've got this issue and certainly there are biological contributions to sexual function as you had mentioned and people could watch my youtube channels for all that information there's a plethora of that but this piece around the psychosocial aspects to one's experience and how the influence and the interpersonal, you know, the intra and

Starting point is 00:23:32 interpersonal, the relational factors, they do matter. And I would say even matter more so than perhaps certainly if there's biological contribution. But even with that, let's say you're taking medication like Viagra or Cialis, it only can do so much. It's not 100% cure. And any doctor, any health professional will tell you that, that it's only going to match what's already going on. And we need all these other psychosocial factors to enhance the effectiveness of what strategies you're trying to use to expand your pleasure or to help enhance your sexual experiences, right? So it's not the cure. It can only do so much. And we, in these other elements that you're talking about, they do matter and they matter

Starting point is 00:24:37 quite a bit in, in, in, in what we're talking about. Yeah. And just to make it really clear for anybody listening, like when Dr. Susie saying like, it can only do so much, like there are plenty of men who take things like Viagra and don't experience an erection right like they've taken all the same stuff and it's because they aren't relaxed right or that they're in some sort of sympathetic state where they're they right you know are are charged in some way that of course their body like even with the pharmaceutical in their body like in their bloodstream, they're still not able to make it happen. And that's how powerful the brain is in our nervous system as you're talking about the parasympathetic sympathetic. Your brain has its

Starting point is 00:25:25 own powerful drug cabinet and it can be likened to like a faucet, right? Which faucet do you want to turn on and which one do you want to turn off? One is going to help facilitate and enhance the neurological physiological connections and activation and and another is going to if you turn it off it gets dry right so it's going to inhibit it's going to dampen that experience and take you out i mean you're just going to be so completely disconnected from your any experience of pleasure how could that possibly feel pleasant or good or comfortable or relaxed in that in that moment. I mean, you just, you just, you just can't. Right. Right. I like that example of the faucet. I use one where I talk about how it's like, if you're trying to push past the anxiety

Starting point is 00:26:18 that you're feeling, it's kind of like trying to drive with the emergency brake on. Exactly. Same sort of idea, right? That like, you know, wouldn't it be better to figure out how to drive with just the gas. Just the gas or just the brake when you need it, but not the emergency brake on as you're trying to drive at the same time. Yes, exactly. And, you know, I do want to make a comment out there because it is sometimes because I'm a female identified person, as you are as well, we're talking about men's sexual health and sexual wellness. And sometimes we do, we do get a little pushback around like, well, how do you know what it's like to be a man? You don't have a penis. You have no idea. And you're talking about men's stuff, right? And to that,

Starting point is 00:27:07 I say, I'm human. I have genitals. I interact with men. But all these things that we're talking about also apply to all people, all bodies, regardless of the genitals you have or identify with. These principles, these concepts that we're talking about apply to everyone, whether or not you have a penis. I don't know if you have any comment on that. I do, actually. So sometimes I find it like some men have found it really helpful to when I describe or like mirror back to them what their body's doing like how their body's showing up but I put it from my perspective then they can really take it in in a different way because the same kinds of things happen right like you know like i have a vulva vulvas also experience erections they're just you know

Starting point is 00:28:14 a little bit harder to see they're not quite as obvious but still definitely happens and um i know that when my body is becoming ready for sexual intimacy that i can feel like are you okay with me using the word pussy do you use pussy absolutely go for it so i can i can feel my pussy relax and like open up to, you know, the possibility of penetration. And so when I frame it and I say like, like, Oh yeah, I was, um, uh, with this guy the other day and I just like, could not make my body relax. And so penetration could just not happen. Like my body just wouldn't do it. Like, I feel like such a failure. I like, I should have been able to make my pussy relax in that moment. And I just couldn't, when I start framing it in that way,

Starting point is 00:29:11 a lot of men are able to see for themselves the kind of, um, internal self-talk that they've been putting on themselves. And when they can hear it from me, sometimes they're able to see like, wow Erica like you know that would be really unfair of your partner to put that kind of pressure on you or like why were you putting that kind of pressure on yourself and then they're able to transfer that to why am I putting that pressure on me oh my gosh that's empathy that's trying to see the perspective from another point of view and then saying oh my gosh like I'm doing that to myself and then compassion yeah compassion then then fills our hearts and minds and and that's just such an open place to be for accepting the experience in such a wholehearted

Starting point is 00:30:13 way rather than a closed off very self-centered and often negative way right and I asked them like you know if um you know if I were your partner and this was what I how I was talking to myself and how I was describing this interaction like what would you say they said well of course I would say things like we can take as much time as as you know as your body needs there's nothing that has to be rushed you haven't failed anything I really enjoyed like kissing you or touching you in other ways, right? Like there was nothing, like they realized they would never, ever think to put that kind of pressure or expectation on me and that they don't have to do that for themselves. They can just, they can decide in advance that they're not going to treat themselves

Starting point is 00:31:05 in the same way. That's right. That's right. And it shows up not just that transformation, not only is going to change your experience sexually, but also I imagine that this infiltrates and permeates the rest of their life and the way that they engage in the world and other aspects of their being. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, I like to say sometimes that the way we do one thing

Starting point is 00:31:33 is the way we do many. And, you know, that sort of pushing through or, you know, um, expecting something that's really not, um, you know, not fair or kind to be expecting of ourselves in the bedroom. Like, how does that come out with, um, you know, how much, how hard we push ourselves when we're tired and we need rest or when something isn't going well at work or right. You can, you can find these connections in other places too. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Erica, thank you so much for the work that you do and in helping men, really. Like I said, we're unicorns. There are many of us out there, I think, but not enough. And I just want

Starting point is 00:32:14 to say thanks. Thank you for what you do and how you show up in the world for men and support men in this way. I think it's really, really transformational for everyone. So thank you so much. Um, how can listeners connect with you? Yeah, absolutely. So like, um, like we said at the beginning, I have two separate practices and in general, I suggest that most people start with coaching first because it is faster, more convenient. Um, and if, if anything, and it's cheaper and if anything, it can help support the work of surrogate partner therapy. So my coaching, you can find at www.erikadavian.com. But if you're specifically interested in surrogate partner therapy, then you can go to Sessions with Erika. My name is with a K, so E-R-K-A,

Starting point is 00:33:05 E-R-I-K-A, sessionswitherika.com. And then put me in touch with your therapist and I can consult with the therapist to see if we're really a good fit, if I'm a good fit for your case. and do you have a podcast i do thank you thanks for that reminder i do have a podcast um for my coaching work so my coaching program is a 12-week program called bachelor to boyfriend and i also have a podcast with the same name bachelor to boyfriend we'll be sure to link all of your resources under the description on the youtube channel below for the show and also on all streaming platforms in the show notes as well for folks to connect with you again thank you so much for being on the show and welcome to all of our listeners out there until next time my friends

Starting point is 00:33:59 this is dr suzy g in loving wellness for your pelvis bye thanks for listening to today's episode be sure to visit my website drsuzyg.com for show notes and related resources on today's topic If you like what you're hearing, head on over to YouTube and subscribe to my channel. On my YouTube channel, you'll find content related to sex, pelvic health, and expert interviews for men. If you got a question or a topic that you'd like me to answer on my channel, be sure to type it in the comment box below.

In Your Pants with Dr. Susie G - Top Dating Tips for Men: Navigating Intimacy and Sexual Health

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.