Indiecast - 20 Years of Radiohead's 'Kid A'

Episode Date: October 2, 2020

It's hard to believe in retrospect, but many music critics in the early '90s assumed that bands who became popular after Nirvana could never last. After the success of Radiohead's "Creep," they were roped in with other bands that fizzled out after their one-hit-wonder, with many turning their noses up at the somewhat nerdy alternative rock outfit. Needless to say, those estimations couldn't have been further from the truth.In many ways, Radiohead's fourth album 'Kid A' was the culmination of the band putting their alternative rock era behind them, moving toward the more esoteric, dream-like sound that we've come to know and love. Two decades after its release, Steven and Ian look back on the iconic album.In this week's Recommendation Corner, Hyden is singing the praises of Bartees Strange's debut album 'Live Forever' while Cohen is plugging 'Dubnobasswithmyheadman' and 'Second Toughest in the Infants,' the first two albums from British electronica band Underworld. Pick up Steven's new book 'This Isn't Happening: Radiohead's 'Kid A' And The Beginning Of The 21st Century' here and sign up for the Indie Mixtape newsletter here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, we hash out trends. In this episode, we'll be looking back at one of the landmark albums of the 21st century Radiohead's Kid A. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? All right, so listeners, let's, let's just take a moment to gas this dude up, because

I'm like I'm super proud of you for this book man it's like this is the old kid A is the only thing you're going to read about for like the next week or so and this man's got the definitive book on the subject I and let's be real if Stephen Hayden is not out there producing books there is no there's no Ian Cohen podcast so you know I owe a lot to this man's work ethic and you know he's just killing it out there I think it's just such an inspiration for people who are, you know, wondering, like, you know, wondering, like, how do I make it in music writing and, you know, all that. So, big ups to you on that.

Oh, man, it's getting, it's getting dusty. Yeah, now I got to write a book. Like, I'm going to, like, self-publish, like, a, like, a 33 and a third on, like, Promise Wings Woodwater. So we have to do an episode of that. But, no, who, there's no self-publishing. There's got to be some author who's going to hand you the fat check to write that book. I want to read that book. Yeah, but, um, you know, fun story. Like, you know, I hold my head up super high when I went into Diesel bookstore. It's like called Diesel, but it's actually the independent bookstore in Del Mar, California. And, you know, I'm holding up the book to the, to the cashier. And I'm like, yo, dude, like, I do a podcast with this dude, you should check it out. Are you a

radio head fan? And he's like mid-20s. And he says to me, it's like, oh, radio head. You know, I'm not that familiar with them. They're like kind of weird, right? So I point that out because like there are still people who are like, like we talk about like radio head as if like they're, you know, like the Beatles. But for for some people, there's, they're still yet to go through their radio head phase. So, uh, that's true. That kid was probably, yeah, four or five years old when this, when, when kid A came out. So I told him to listen to the podcast. So if you are listening, dude whose name I don't recall from Diesel Bookstore and. Del Mar, California, you know, this is, your life is about to change.

That's right. We're making you a star, diesel bookstore guy. Yeah, you know, and Ian, I just want to thank you for allowing me to do some gross self-promotion on this episode of our podcast. Because as you've alluded to, I have a new book that came out this week. It's called This Isn't Happening. Radiohead's Kid A in the beginning of the 21st Century. It came out on Tuesday.

And I figured, you know, we host. an indie rock podcast, so we have to talk about, you know, we're not going to really talk about my book, we're going to be talking about kid A. I mean, because this is, even aside from the gross self-promotion, this is like a major album of the past 20 years. Of course, it came out on the day that this podcast is dropping on October 2, 2000. And diesel bookstore guy aside, I think it's safe to say that for a lot of people, Radiohead is like one of those foundational bands. And one of the major themes of my book is that Radiohead was a band that I grew up with, essentially. Like, I remember when Creep showed up in the MTV Buzzbin with, like, Hey, Jealousy by the Jim Blossoms and, you know, Lowe by Cracker and Us Three cantalope and all those kind of songs.

And I love, very good. And I bought Pablo Honey on CD. I loved it at the time. I wrote a review of it for my local paper. first albums I ever reviewed. So, I mean, this is like, you know, a band that's kind of coming in the ground floor for me in a lot of ways in terms of, like, writing about music and caring about music. And, you know, just going through the 90s, OK, Computer was a major event for me when that dropped in 1997. I was 19. I think that was the first Radiohead album I bought, like, the day it came out

or a day or two after it came out. Definitely felt like, oh, this is my dark side of the moon. This is my pet sounds. This is my all-time classic record for my generation. And all that leads into Kid A. I'm curious for you. I mean, like, did you have a similar experience with Radiohead before Kid A came out? So I did to an extent now it takes a little bit of time to get there because, I mean, what I can't figure out for the life of me is how I watched MTV for like 10 hours a day in 1993.

Like, wake up, watch MTV come home. go to school, come home, watch MTV. Like, as, like, I bought everything I saw on MTV and the Buzzbin. I, like, ripped off Columbia House. I don't know how many times. And yet, somehow I never owned a copy of Pablo Honey. I have, like, did a 13-year-old me think that creep was a little bit on the nose and over the top?

I just don't understand. Like, it just baffles me. Like, I could spend an entire episode talking about the things that ended up at disco round, but Pablo Honey, not one of them. And going, and, you know, furthermore to that point, like, the Ben's, I vaguely remember dubbing it on a cassette. That's, like, that was about the, like, I knew they existed, but, like, they didn't get played on MTV a whole lot, I recall.

So, like, they just kind of faded at the periphery. And then, um, see, I feel like they did with the Benz. I feel like, because they had, that was like the beginning of them making, like, pretty striking music videos. It was like for fake plastic trees and like just. I saw fake plastic cheese like one. I feel like I saw each of those videos like once. And they're very distinctive.

Like I could have told you what they were about. But you know, with OK computer now like they're one of the things that I had going on at 17 is that like I had a lot of trouble sleeping. So I would just like watch MTV late night. And there are a couple videos that I can remember seeing on MTV's late night programming that I just stop. whatever I was doing and it like I just could not go to sleep because I was just so fixated on it. One was Eminem's my name is. I saw that video and thought this is going to be like the dumbest one hit wonder. This guy's going to take over the world.

Another was Andrew WK's party hard. Immediately I need to know everything I can about this guy. I'm going to bring it to my friends in college and we were going to play this every single night on loop before we go drinking. And the other was paranoid Android. And it was like, I mean, the animation of the video is just so disturbing and striking. And it just like, wait, this is what Radiohead is, like this six-minute song that sounds like Bohemian Rhapsody. And I read a couple of reviews, you know, about the album, like talking about what a tremendous leap it was. And I bought this album on the day it came out July 1st, 1997.

I always remember that day. And I bought it. I was on a teen tour in Israel. And the reason no one ever got to borrow my copy of OK computer is because it had like the parlorophone logo on the back. It had a sticker on the front with the price in shekels and curse of Hebrew. And I mean, that album, like you said, I listened to this in the Israeli desert on a teen tour during like the best summer of my life. And I mean, to give you an extent, to give you an idea of like how open I was to like quote profound experience. I also went through a heavy doors phase that summer and into like the Wu-Tang universe of their solo albums.

And I mean, one of the things you talk about in the book is like, you know, how All Rock gets like a slam by a lot of people like the coastal elites or whatever. But for for kids in the suburbs, it's like, you know, a way out of this like mundane existence. It like gives you like it's a gateway. You know, gateway band gets used pejoratively a lot. but it's a gateway towards, you know, cooler things. And, you know, in high school, like, I would always just wish I could, you know, just, like, start over at a new place, you know. Like, it was a good time for the most part, but it was like, I wish I could just, like,

you know, reinvent myself, like, with not being among these people who have seen me grow up for the past 12 years. And then during that summer in Israel, like, for, like, those two months, I was, like, popular. Like I had made I had made good friends. I had like a girlfriend for a week, which on an eight week teen tours, an eternity. And I'd sit in the desert and have these profound spiritual experiences listening to subterranean homesick alien. And from that point forward, being a radio head fan was a foundational component of my personality. Like I was a radio head guy. I was buying the live bootlegs on, I guess eBay was that? I don't know. Like what, what, I don't know. I don't know. I don't

I mean, I feel like I just bought bootlegs like in record stores and they would always be like severely marked up. So like if I wanted to buy like a radio head bootleg or, you know, there were like a lot of Pearl Jam bootlegs back then. You'd spend like 30 or $40 on a disc that you had no idea what it sounded like and you could get it home and it would be like a terrible audience tape. And you just felt like you got totally ripped off. But there was that moment of excitement right before you put the disc on. that like this might sound incredible. And sometimes it did. I think especially with Radiohead

because there were, I feel like they did like a lot of like radio shows like where things would be broadcasts. Just taping things off the radio and putting them on disc. They'd end up sounding pretty good. But yeah, you know, you made an illusion earlier about to sort of like the reputation of alternative rock as the 90s went on

and how I think, especially for music critics, there was this generation of bands that came out like right after Nirvana hit big that were perceived to sort of be like jumping on that bandwagon. And there was an idea that like a lot of those bands were going to come and go, which some of them did. True. Yeah, many of them did. But, like Radiohead was grouped into that initially. And this is something that we forget now. You know, we think of Radiohead being, you know, this all-time band.

Again, like sort of a generation-defining band in many ways. But there was a long period of time where they were perceived. to be this one-hit wonder band. They had the song Creep, this very melodramatic song. An emo-ish song, if I may say so. I mean, I think it sounds very emo-ish, even though Radiohead's influence on emo seems somewhat nebulous, I don't know. A lot of emo bands like love Kid A.

I mean, you know, you can hear it in like Foxing or whatever. But I think a point that, you know, this kind of elizes that radio, I think Radiohead was like dismissed in Britain in England because like they seen the subject matter of creep and the sound of it was very like American. Not altogether dissimilar from say Bush, you know, as far as like the way they were perceived, you know? Yeah, they were very, yeah, like Radiohead initially in England was, you know, dismissed. They weren't taken very seriously. Like the big band of the day was Swade. You know, people remember Swade, which is, you know, you look at them and you can see why in 1993 people,

people would have been putting the smart money on them to be the successful band. They had this sort of glamorous swagger going on. They had all of the British rock touchstones, you know, in their music from like Bowie to T-Rex to all that stuff. Whereas like you said, like Radiohead was this very sort of earnest band, kind of a nerdy band, like not especially cool really in the way they presented themselves. And yeah, it seemed like their influences early on were much more American, you know, like the pixies. and even Nirvana a little bit, although those are the things, of course,

that allowed them to become much bigger in America than a lot of British bands would become. Like, Swade really had no presence in America at all. They had to be renamed as the London Swade, you know? Just to show you, but I mean, those records are great, but I think that was like one of the situations where, like, two weeks before the album comes out, like I think the enemy called Swade, like the greatest album of the 90s,

like in 1993. Right. So I miss that part of the British press, by the way. Yeah. And by the way, go check out Swade. Oh, that record rules, man. Ian says, that first record's great. I like Dogman Star, the next record.

That's like they're sort of be here now, like drugged out, you know. Heroin, not cocaine. Exactly. We're over the top. But I feel like Radiohead, even like up through OK computer, they were still dealing with the aftershocks of creep and being treated as a punchline by a lot of rock critics. Like when I was researching this book, I was really struck by the fact that in the lead to the reviews of OK Computer and like Rolling Stone and Spin, like they reference creep.

Like people are still writing about creep at that time. And in a way, I kind of feel like Kid A was the full combination of Radiohead putting that part of their career to bed, this idea that, like, we're, because again, this, this runs so counter to how we talk about Radiohead now. Radiohead now has this reputation, I think, somewhat unfairly of being this, you know, this, like, you need, like, a college degree to understand them, you know, it's, like, way too, like, brainy for the average person to get into. Like, initially, they were looked at as this, again, like, dumb Nirvana Rupoff. They were called complaint rock, I believe, in clueless, right?

That's right That's right I forgot about that That is the 90s version of like Death Cat for Qudy being on the OC Of like being like one guy and a lot of complaining I mean I think for people who kind of You know just

Observers of pop culture like that was what radio Head may had been destined to be in like 1996 Like part of OK computer Exactly like the like Sad Boy guitar band Yeah like the band The Benz has kind of been like retconned into being this like five star like 10.0 classic. And I love it.

But like I think that people kind of need to see that record as like the bridge between OK computer and Pablo Honey. Because like without it, it's like, you know, it's like if Michael Jordan went from being like cut from his varsity team. Like if you cut out him going to North Carolina, you know. Right. Yeah. But the Benz was like a really good alt rock album. Totally. Yeah.

And not like a world changer. Although at the time, I feel like it was looked at as being a difficult record or like a curveball from Pablo Honey. Because I know like for me, as much as I love Pablo Honey, I didn't get into the bends right away. I think again, just because I was already reading a lot of music magazines and I internalized this view of them as being like a one hit wonder. And it's like you don't need to buy the second record by the one hit wonder band. And it was only after, say, like, big plastic trees became this major MTV hit, I feel like, or, you know, just seeing the string of songs that came off that record, just high and dry, street spirit, you know, they were just like a string of, like,

really stunning singles off of that record. But none of them were hits. I don't think, I would not call any of them hits. I think I heard just on the radio maybe once. Yeah, yeah, that radio hits, but I feel like I saw those videos, pretty regularly on MTV. I mean, because that would, you know, living in Wisconsin the way I was,

that was the only way I would have been exposed. Yeah. Must be a time, must be a time difference thing. You must have been watching MTV like two hours after I was. I guess. I don't know.

But yeah, there was, but yeah, they were definitely a alt rock band of that time. Opening for Atlanta's more set. Opening for, opening for R.E.M. on the monster tour. We're putting in a lot of work.

And really, with the success of OK Computer, that was the record that put them at the status where the record company could say, okay, go into the studio, spend as much time as you want, and produce your masterpiece. And we don't care what it sounds like. But you have the leverage now because of OK Computer to do that.

Because again, like the records that they were making before that, we're relatively regimented in terms of the schedule. Like they certainly like with Pablo Honey that was very quickly made. I think the Benz was like relatively you know, that was knocked up pretty quickly.

But yeah, Kidae is really the beginning of like radio head albums I feel like becoming like a major endeavor. Like where it's going to take a long time to make it and it's going to be a difficult record. So since we're, I guess, I think we're segueing now into the Kid A portion of our episode. Let's just give a little background on this record for those who may not know what it is, although I don't know why you're still listening to this episode.

If you know what Kid A is. Read the book. Read the book. But yeah, Kid A is the fourth Radiohead album. Again, it came out on October 2, 2000. It was recorded throughout 1999 and for a good part of 2000. And they worked in various places, including Paris, Copenhagen Gloucestershire, which I hope I pronounce that correctly, as well as their hometown of

Oxford. Kidd A ended up debuting at number one on the Billboard charts in America. I also debuted at number one in the UK. It was the first album of Radioheads to do that in America. It went on to be nominated for Album of the Year in 2000, and I'm trying to remember what won in 2000. I did not know that it got nominated for album of the year. I think that was the year that Steely Dan won. Was that? Two Against Nature.

I think, because we always, yeah, it was, because our M&M's Marshall Mathers L.P was nominated that year, as was Kid A. And lost two, two against nature by Steely Dan, which I love in retrospect. I love that Steely Dan one because I love, because I love Steely Dan, but I also think it's hilarious that Steely Dan won. the Grammy that year. It has gone on to be considered one of the great. Oh, check this.

Oh, you've got to hear. Okay. You want to talk about like time stamping 2000. So Steely Dan did win album of the year. The other candidates were, as you said, Marshall Mathers, LP, Kid A, Midnight Vulture. See, in 2000, Beck was still like, reflexively being nominated for every single Grammy. And lastly, here's the one that people forget. Paul Simon's You're the One.

Oh, yeah. So, you know, there's an alternate timeline where we're making this joke, but like Paul Simon is kind of the boomer vote. You know what? I'm not going to dunk on You're the One. I think that's a pretty solid late period Paul Simon album. In other words, a perfect Grammy album of the year nominee. I'll shout out, You're the One. It didn't deserve to win an album of the year.

Beck has been releasing his You're the One for like the past 10 years. Exactly. It would have been hilarious if, like, Steely Dan and Paul Simon tied for album of the year. If only the Grammys could do that. If they could, they would. It's like, well, you know, we're giving the Steely Dan, but we're going to get Paul Simon a Grammy too. Paul, come on up here. You made a good record.

Of course, Kid A has gone on to be regarded as one of the greatest albums of the last 20 years. Pitchfork named it the album of the decade. the album of the aughts in their list at the end of the aughts there in 2009. Rolling Stone, they just put out their top 500 albums of all time list. KDade came in at number 20, which was among the highest ranked albums to come out in the 21st century. I think Tipinpa Butterfly and my beautiful Dark TwiCit Fancy are like right after it. I think Tipinpa Butterfly is 19, and the kind of,

Kanye record is 18. Are you sure how to dismantle an atomic bomb is not up there as well? Oh, man. See, you keep throwing out these albums that I feel reflexively compelled to defend. I actually don't mind that record. If we're going to clown on a late period U-2 record, let's do like songs of experience or something. I think that's like...

Yeah, no line on the horizon or whatever. How do I know these albums? I've never listened to them. Actually, I don't want to get too far afield here, but like you two, I think, I think the highest ranked album on that list was Octune Baby, which was like 120 or something. No way. Yeah, I don't think a U2 album cracked the top 100. And I feel like this is rolling in his grave if he's, well, I'm going to say, right. For all the jokes about Rolling Stone, like just heaping praise on you too, like, that's kind of, I think they got job there.

I think you've got to put Octune Baby in the top 100 or Joshua, which. Tree. I would put, don't you think one of those albums should be in the top 100? Like, I'm shocked, actually. Like, I kind of only have dabbled in that list. But, like, that is, like, legitimately shocking to me. So I... That's the millennials. Yeah, you have convinced me that I need to, like, read this thing in full. Yeah, I'm just saying, like, you know, even if you think you two is lame, Octune Baby, Joshua Tree. Yeah, there's a kind of undeniable. You can't deny those.

If you think you do sucks, put those albums on. I think you will enjoy them. I think I saw like Blood Sugar Sex Magic was like one up like in the around the Octung Baby range, which like yeah. So that's really startling. That's a great album though. We're going to have it up. Oh, it is.

But like I mean, it doesn't have the same reputation. We need to put this conversation out like we need to have like an eight part episode on this Rolling Stone list before we get two off the subject of Kid A. I know, like my self-promotion just got derailed by talking about the placement of Octune Baby on that list. So we've talked a bit about our feelings about Radiohead leading up to Kid A. You know, in my book I write about how this was an album I feel like I liked kind of from the get-go just because I felt like I had been primed by so many people not to like it. And there was also this thing, I think, in the 90s where it was almost exciting.

expected that if you had a big hit album, you were going to make the difficult follow-up record. You know, Nirvana in utero, you know, like Pearl Jam with no code or, you know, there were so many examples of like just really successful artists throwing the curveball after their big success. So it was almost like if Radiohead hadn't had done that, that would have been disappointing, you know? Like, so I'm just curious for you. Like, what are your memories of that? And like, and just at the year 2000, because like, that's another thing in my book. I write about just about the period of time.

To me, that's like what was so interesting to write about this album versus maybe say, okay computer, even though I probably like okay computer a little bit more. Just the fact that this came out, you know, at the beginning of the 21st century, really before all of these things that would come to define, like the modern age happened. Like, you know, the internet was around, but it still wasn't that big of a deal. You could still steal music online, but like internet was still kind of percolating in music culture. You know, the Bush v. Gore election was just about to unfold right after this album came out, and that was insane.

And then you have 9-11 and the wars and all that stuff. So there's so many things to touch on when you talk about this album. But, you know, I guess what are your initial remembrances of that record and how you felt about it and just in that period of time? So if we're talking about the year, like the second half of the year 2000, like my first semester of my third year college, my recollection, like there is very, very little that I remember or cared about. Like there are two things I cared about. One, if I were going to the bars that night, would my New Jersey fake ID work? Because it was like me. It was like me and like five other guys like all showing up with New Jersey IDs and, you know, and. And after I had like enough drinks, like, can I please leave, go home, listen to my burned copy of Kid A. Like for me, it's like, I would love to talk to 2000 me about like how, how I received music news, like how I found it out. Because like, I don't know if I had the internet in my, where I was living. Like, you know, I mean, I'd have to go to like maybe the campus like library or whatever.

But how did I know like what the track listing was? Like, how did I know that these songs that I pulled off either scour or Napster? Like, how did I know those were the real songs from Kid A and not like, I know a couple years later there was like a muse song that was mislabeled as cuttooth and people really thought it was radiohead. This album, like, I was primed for this to be like a life-changing experience for me. I was like I lived inside kid A I don't remember much else that was going on and I think what was such a profound experience for me was that as I said before like all like being a radio head guy like this being a defining component of who I was as a 20 year old it was really validating like here is this band that I love like just completely reconstructing what it means for like to be. rock music and just like listen to what they're doing. It's like there's no vocals because like, you know, as we as we talk about like curveballs, I mean, look, you listen to like 1997 to 1999.

There's so many bands that successfully or less so successfully try to incorporate, for lack of a better term, Electronica. I think about like say Zeropa or Smashing Pumpkins at Door, you know, albums that were still like rock music but like had an electronic influence into it. You know, maybe there was like more drum machines or synthesizers and kid A just turn it all completely inside out. And I just like I had never heard anything like it before. Like I was so convinced that this was the greatest band of our lifetime. This is our, you know, pet sounds.

This is our Sergeant Pepper's. And it's happening right now. It's not this like received wisdom about hey, you kind of have to take my word for it when pet sounds dropped like this was revolutionary. It's like I was actually living through it. And that to me, I mean, if we got to talk about the pitch work review at some point. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think you were saying before about how did I know like what the tracklist thing was.

Like how did I know that these were the actual songs? Which by the way, I think it's hilarious that you like did you buy the record at some point or did you just? definitely bought it at some point. Like it was weirdly anti-climactic to do that. I mean, it was cool because you would hear like the song segue into each other and then you have to kind of relearn how to listen to it. But yeah, that CD, that or that playlist or whatever I had, it's, that was, that's to me in a lot of ways, like how I learned kid A, you know?

I did, I waited, like, I stood at my, I still. thought at the time that I had to like sit at my computer in order for downloads to work. Like I couldn't leave. So I did wait like 30 minutes for tree fingers to download, you know? Right, exactly. Yeah. And I think the reason why you probably knew about the track listing was that this was a record that was being talked a lot of online, you know, before it came out. And like one of the things I write about in the book is that I feel like Kidae was among like the first really big records that compelled people to go on the internet to learn more about it. Like this was a record that I think really helped to usher in a generation of people into

going on message boards, checking out like where, you know, you could find bootleg recordings of the concerts that they were playing before the album came out. They did a tour that summer in Europe where they were playing a lot of these songs. There was, there's the story about how the record company, essentially democratized the album stream of the record, that, you know, Kid A was a record, again, this was very revolutionary at the time that you could stream before it came out. And they didn't make it in exclusive to like Rolling Stone or NPR. They had this embeddable thing called an iBlipp.

It was essentially just like a music player that also had music news and like, you know, graphics and other kind of radio head ephemera that like anyone who had a blog could take this and they could embed it on their website. So it was like hundreds of places that were streaming this record. And of course, the record ended up leaking online before it came out. And it was like one of the first big albums to do that too. And you mentioned the Pitchfork Review, you know, which is this, again, this famous review written by Brent D. Crenzenzo, I think I pronounced his last name correctly.

Dichreschenzo, I think it is. DeCreschenzo. And it was a perfect 10.0 score, but it was more famous for the writing, this very purple prose, just way over the top, sort of like, it almost reads to me like 60s type writing, like very sort of like speed-driven, cross with mushrooms, like, you know, a little bit of beat poetry in there, all this sort of stuff that the review, as much as things could go viral back then. I feel like it did go viral for people. I think because one, people couldn't believe the writing of it.

There was this sort of like, I think a lot of people laughed at the review because they thought it was ridiculous. But I think there was also a sense of people appreciating the enthusiasm of it. Because the professional press, if you will, like the Rolling Stones and spins and certainly the British press, they were very skeptical of Kidd A. Even like the American press, you know, the American press received it better than the British press did. But they were also a little qualified in their praise. I think there was a feeling of like, when you read the reviews, the sense I get is that like people didn't actually like KDA, but they respected Radiohead enough to give them the benefit of the doubt. That like, we're eventually going to like this record. You know, you know what I mean?

Like sometimes you get that sense from reviews, like where there's not like a... From other radio head records such as in Hube Shay pool. Sometimes you see that where it's like I don't quite get this yet But I think this band is really good And I'm gonna get it eventually I think that was the tone But you know

That review of Kidd A for Pitchfork I mean that was a pivotal review for pitchfork And I feel like that was the beginning Of their ascendance essentially And like Which is another wrinkle of this story I feel like Again looking at this as being a turning

point, this album being a turning point at the beginning of a new century, you know, you have pitchfork, which is going to become the dominant voice and music discourse in the new age, you know, and it really began, I think, with that review. Yeah, I would say that, you know, as far as like the writing being kind of over the top, like, I think we need to view it in the context of like what else were writing about at the time. Because, I mean, like, at that point, I was very, you know, at that point, I was reading them, I was super interested in reading what they had to say about kid A. And, you know, when I was, when I was listening to that record, to me, it was like, this is, this is no doubt.

Like, this is five stars. This is 10. Like, there is no way this is less than perfect. And right. I still hold a grudge against my college newspaper. I published a kid A review. And I couldn't give it a perfect score because the editor did not think it would match the level of the miseducation of Lauren Hill.

She was kind of ahead of her time, I suppose. But yeah, I remember, like, when I read that review, I felt like really super validated. Like, yes, this is a 10.0. These people get it. Like, these people are really on the cutting edge. And, you know, the writing itself, like, if you look at, like, what else is being written at the time, like, this is what drew me into. Like, the, I mean, in the, in their review.

review of the moon in Antarctica. They spend like the first couple paragraphs talking about like getting mail at the pitchfork office. The review of relationship of command, which also came out in 2000, is formatted as like a debate between Bush and Gore. So it wasn't really that much over the top, but at the time. But nonetheless, it's the enthusiasm behind it. And I mean, I'm 20 years old when I'm reading this. And so I'm like there is someone who shares my enthusiasm and is not hedging. like when eventually I think the Rolling Stone Review came out and they were super positive but it was like four stars you know like as if it were like a latter day Paul Simon album or something no I think I think I think you're absolutely right about the enthusiasm I think that that's one thing even if people thought that the writing was funny or or you know histrionic or whatever that they appreciated that it was coming at them from their level it wasn't this sort of older brother older sister tone that you got from the corporate magazines, which was very much like, you know, yeah, this is fine, but it's not as good as stuff that came out in the 70s or 80s, you know, like, we're kind of heading on.

It's no goddess in the doorway. Yeah, exactly. And I think the writing, too, also drew people in because it wasn't like the writing that you would read in the corporate magazines, where it was much more, you know, for lack of a better term, professional, you know, it was regimented. It was like, you know, really like a lot of music writing is now. I mean, which in a way, I mean, I don't think all music writing should be like the Kada review, but, you know, it's much tame. It's tame down.

You know, it uses a set of vocabulary that we're all familiar with that doesn't go outside the lines. Yeah, trade, here's a little trade secret. In law school, they teach you how to format an argument and issue rule analysis conclusion. it's called Iraq. A lot of reviews are formatted the exact same way. Right. And they're written to be kind of consumed quickly, to be understood right away. You don't have to think too hard about what they mean.

And, you know, at some respects, that's good. And others, it is, I think, a microcosm of how much the Internet has changed in the last 20 years. And to me, that's one of the ironies of Kid A, because when that album came out, and I think this happened fairly quickly after that album, was released that it was contextualized as this sort of warning about technology and like how oppressive the internet was. And I feel like in the year 2000, the internet was actually a very hopeful place and a very exciting place. It was a place that you would go because you were trying to get away from, you know, the sort of oppressiveness of mainstream media or, you know, just

mainstream culture in real life in general. And you could go online, you could commiserate with people that were into your own sort of geeky interests and not feel like, you know, everything was so, again, so regimented and so safe and boring. And really, Kidday, I think it rings truer now than it did then. You know, the mood of the record, I think,

is much more like 2020 in a way than it was in October of 2000, again before all of these things happened in the 21st century that would come to define just how crazy and paranoid and chaotic the last 20 years have been. I mean, I think that Bush v. Gore election, for instance, is such a turning point in American history in terms of just not trusting the political process. Yeah, like hail to the thief, anyone? Yeah, see? I just got that album title.

Holy shit. It's like, wait, it's like hail to the chief, except the chief is a feat. Fuck, man. these guys are geniuses. So how do you feel about Kid A now? Like, do you think this is the best radio head record? I mean, if you think about, like, what I, what I view Kid A as from, like, my current perspective, it's like, I think about the person. I try to think about, like, what it might have been like if I were, like, 30 years old when it came out.

Like, because you mentioned in the book, like, Tom York starts buying up the entire warp catalog of, like, Autacker, Square, Pusher, Apex Twin, like, things that, like I vaguely was aware of as a 20 year old. And like, you know, now that I've listened to all that stuff and I do this kid A sound, oh, this is just like a rock band appropriating like IDM or whatever. But at the same time, like I listen to it now, it still sounds like nothing else. Like I think you can look at, you can listen to like electronic music that recalls like Aotecker or like boards of Canada. But nothing ever quite sounds like kid A, like. because it is a rock band making an electronic record.

Like one of the things that I think it's under, that it's underappreciated about Radiohead is that, like you said, even though they're seen as this cutting edge, sort of esoteric band, there's something kind of like classic rock basic about them. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, in the sense, like, they're a gateway band. Like, they, they're an impressive band for impressionable people,

like the same way like Pink Floyd is or Zeppelin. can you be 35 years old and go through like your radio head phase for the first time like I I don't know if that's the case and but I listen to like kid A is an album I think actually maybe holds up in a way better than a lot of the rate like best I like I honestly can't choose between that and okay computer but I think does the lack of lyrics and the kind of nebulousness of it as far as like its themes and such. Like the Ben's is a very specific, it's like a very on the nose record and that's good for that situation.

But like when I listen to Kid A, I still go right back to 2000. Like it still feels like the internet in 2000 in a way. And it reveals like how little has changed in a sense of how everything just seems like kind of frightening. Like the cover art, very iconic in the way that classic rock is. the packaging, the narrative behind it, it is like, it's an experience in the way that I think the other records are not because of all the things that we talked about, the narrative, the context, the, where if it was released in 1999 or 2001, we would not be talking about

it in the same way. Yeah, you know, like, in a way, I think you're right about the experience of the album, it definitely feels like the most immersive, probably of any Radiohead album. And it has a lot to do with, I think, with how monochromatic it is. You know, it's a very sort of dark, claustrophobic, again, paranoid record. And it's interesting to think about Kidae in light of Amnesiac, which we haven't really talked about. Of course, that album was made during the same sessions. And when you hear the songs that ended up on that record, you could just do. tell like the choices that Kid A. that Radiohead was making in order to have Kid A be the kind of record that it is. Like they could have made Kid A more dynamic, say, by putting Pyramid Song on it

or by putting Knives Out on it. You know, these more sort of beautiful epic songs. I mean, like Pyramid Song is like one of the most gorgeous songs that they've ever made. And yet they consciously didn't put it on Kid A, I think, because they wanted it to have that sort of single-minded experience that you have when you're listening to it. I mean, I certainly think it's one of the best Radiohead albums. I would personally also take Okay Computer. That's like my personal favorite. You know, I would say that it has a lot to do again with when that album came out. You know, I was 19, which is like a perfect age to be blown away by an album. Yes. And I just think that, you know, OK Computer was one of those albums that like sets a benchmark for you as a listener.

You know, and I think we all have those albums that we have early in our life that, like, you hear it and you're like, this is what an album should be. And you end up comparing everything to that album or maybe like a handful of albums that you have in your mind. So I have to say, OK, Computer, is still like that for me. It's so ingrained. That's hard for me to get beyond that. I will say that I think that if you were to ask people about their favorite Radiohead album of the last 20 years, I almost wonder if more people would say in rainbows. I mean, I feel like just anecdotally that in Rainbows is the album. I think especially with younger listeners, again, like if you were a millennial or even like a zoomer or something,

like if you cared about Radiohead, that was maybe like the first Radiohead album that came out when you were of age to like really care about music. You know, I think that for a lot of people, in Rainbows is the album that implanted in their brain as much as it was maybe for, other people with OK Computer and Kid A. I was actually surprised that that album wasn't ranked higher on the Rolling Stone list, not to go back to the Rolling Stone list, but I actually thought in Rainbows would be higher than OK Computer. Just because, again, in my own experience, I feel like younger people look at OK Computer as being very 90s.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, in Rainbow's, like, in Rainbows is so interesting because like it's an album I really like, but it doesn't have, and I understand like why it's, you know, it speaks to a younger generation, but it doesn't have that same sort of effect on me that OK computer or Kid A does. And it's entirely because, you know, I was 27 when it came out. Like I think I was beyond having those formative experiences with music.

And it's like, oh, this is a good album. I'll throw it on. But like, I'm not going to obsess over it. But I think also that, you know, OK computer is just. going to be one of the, I thought that would actually be higher, like, than what it was. But I think OK, computer, just one of those albums. Like, it's going to be like London Calling or, you know, or one of those rock records that just shows up at the top. Like, you, no matter what generation it is, it's just this, it's part of the canon. And I think in rainbows, maybe doesn't have that same thing.

But I also think in rainbows has become more of a cause for celebration, because, it doesn't have that kind of baggage. You know, it has like the whole, oh, you can pay what you want for it. And that narrative is super important, but it doesn't have the same sort of classic rock accumulation. It's more open.

It's warmer. People have called it like the sexiest radio head album, which I wonder what the second one is. Probably, you know, they'll probably say King of Limbs. But yeah, it's, it's an out, it's like, like, in a way, in rainbows to me, is like the dens in that,

Yeah, this is a really good rock album, but not one that I feel was formative in terms of my personality because, you know, I was 27. Like, you know, I was beyond having my, like, my classic rock phase was over at that point. You know, the thing I would say that works in Rainbow's favor is that I think it just sounds more modern, just in terms of its mood. It's a much, like, more chill record. Yeah, absolutely. Which, you know, I just think that generally, like, streaming as a format, it is complementary to music that's more chill. Like, whereas, like, I think if it's, like, music that is louder or more dynamic, which I think, OK, Computer has that, certainly with the vocals and the guitars, it is, it's a, I don't want to use the word aggressive. I don't know if that's a right word to use in relation to Radiohead, but there's more.

Oh, definitely is. You can't put that record on and, you know, just lay back and smoke a... You can't get high to that record. I've gotten high many times of that record. But, again, I just think that, like, the sound and the mood of In Rainbows, it just seems like it's more compatible maybe with the way people listen to music now, which just makes me think that it could end up overtaking OK computer. I think Kid A is always going to have the place that it does.

again, because of the record itself, which I think is amazing, but also the period of time that it came out in. I think that the year 2000 is as significant to Kid A as like the year 1967 is the Sergeant Pepper. Yeah. People associate Sergeant Pepper with the summer of love in the beginning of the hippie thing and all that stuff. And I think Kid A has a similar resonance for its place in time too. So it just makes me think that it's going to stay in that spot. So I just wonder, I feel like OK Computer and Rainbows might battle it out. I don't know.

I think the kind of self-selecting people who make lists and become critics, like, kind of understand, like, understand the importance and the heft of kid of a OK computer. And, you know, the good news for is that, like, Radiohead's not like you two where they've had this embarrassing phase where people turn on them. Like, okay, like, a moon-shaped pool to me isn't overrated album, but, like, they've not met, Radiohead has not done anything that has really caused people to reevaluate, okay computer to the same way that, you know, the Joshua tree might come under scrutiny, you know? Right. Well, you never know. You never know. Radiohead Songs of Experience is coming our way right now. I think Ed O'Brien made that album.

Okay, we have now reached a part of our episode called Recommendation Corner where Ian and I recommend something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? So since we were talking about lists, particularly with the Rolling Stone list, I like to just kind of bring up other lists that have stuck in my head for a long time. The first of which is like the original pitchfork 90s list, which was also, it was taught by Loveless. It swapped Loveless and O.K.C. Computer. Billy Breath was also on that list. Oh, man. Yeah. So, but that's a good list. But yeah, it's a, it's really super. You could tell it was written by like, you know, like four or five people in the late 90s. But I look back as like, I'm like, what are, what are some 90s things I might have missed?

And one thing that comes up, I also mentioned how I would stay up late, just watching MTV when I couldn't go to sleep. And I don't know if you, Steve, remember MTV AMP? Oh, yeah. Okay. Absolutely. Yeah. And so I didn't. really watch a lot of it. Like, I remember just like seeing it every now and again. And looking back

on that, you know, along with the 90s list, you, I'm just shocked this thing existed. Because you could see on MTV videos from like the Chemical Brothers, like, you know, they were a rock sort of flavored electronic act, but like Fotech and Apex Twin and Orbital. Like, how is this stuff playing on MTV? and another band or another group, I guess, that is along those same lines of like mid-90s precursor to OK computer is Underworld. Underworld is a group that is still putting out solid music, but I had never, for whatever reason, listened to their first couple albums. They're an interesting group because prior to like undergoing their reinvention as an electronic act in the mid-90 or the early 90s or the early 90s, mid-90s, they were like this. just like go nowhere rock band and um their first i listened to their first album a dub no bass with my head which came out in 1994 and i just it's like one of those albums where you just think about

like an alternate plan of existence for you like what if i was like i had a couple of friends who got like super into rave in 1996 and 97 um and that's like kind of where our past diverged and they ended up going to the university of vermont and doing a shit ton of drugs but the first two underworld albums, a dub note base with my head and the second toughest of the infants. Like, I think it gets a little bit overlooked as far as electronic, you know, big time electronic records of the 90s go. But this gives you a sense of like, like what, like, what people were saying like

electronica is going to replace rock music. This is the kind of thing they're talking about because it is clearly like born of like rave and, you know, jungle. or drum and bass, or whatever I call it, but it sounds enormous. And this is the kind of stuff that I look for like all the time that I don't seem to find as much in like the 2010s, 20s, like a lot of the bigger electronic music sounds, you know, aside from like the EDM stuff, sounds a little bit too obtuse and like,

like, you know, ARCA or whatever, like 1Otricks Point Never. I like that stuff. But like underworld, the first two albums, this is like, if you want to imagine, like, like a, like a version of EDM, like stadium rave that isn't quite as like, you know, doesn't have the same connotations. I don't know. There's something utopian about this whole wave of music that was happening in 94 and 96.

And I don't know, like, just experiencing this, these albums for the first time, I just, it's like, what must have, like, I really wish I knew these were around when I was 16, you know? Yeah. I've never listened to much underworld. I'm very excited to, though, after you described it, because I love that kind of music, too. Like, that sort of electronic music that has, like, a stadium rock mindset where it's just enormous

and it goes through your body. And, like, you can't deny it. I feel like fuck buttons kind of have that going on. Oh, God. I love that group. You know, and I wish they would have become, you know, like an arena rock, like type attraction, you know, because they were so good.

I mean, are they still together? I mean, I think they're doing separate things. Yeah, I don't know. It's like, when you're, you have a group that's two guys and they're doing solo projects that sound quite similar to fuckbunk. Yeah. I have my fingers crossed, but yeah, I mean, that, like, that's a, that's a group I think of, of like, man, I wish more groups were going for that. Yeah, it's just killer. The album I'm going to be talking about is something I know that you're also really excited about, too, Ian. It's an album called

Live Forever by Bartis Strange comes out today, and you should definitely go check it out after listening to this episode. Barty Strange has an interesting back story. His real name is Bartiz Cox. He is 31 years old. He's in Washington, D.C. I grew up living in a lot of different places, but ended up settling in his teen years in Oklahoma, Tulsa, to be exact.

And he was a real go-getter as a young man. Apparently he worked in like the Obama administration at one point. He was a spokesperson for the FCC. but he hated that job and he ended up quitting and moved away and started playing an indie rock bands. He first came, I think, to everyone's attention earlier this year when he put out a really cool covers record called Say Goodbye to Pretty Boy, which was a collection of songs, covers of songs by The National with a couple of originals by Strange at the end of the record. And, you know, covers records, for me, it can be very hit or miss. Typically, I tend to find them a little bit boring.

Yeah. But this cover's record, I thought he did a really great job of, like, completely reimagining these songs. Songs that you may already be familiar with, like Lemon World becomes this like, you know, sort of emo rock, Rager. The song About Today, I think he does a great cover of that. Turns it into this sort of like low-key electronic song. song, in a way, kind of makes an early national song sound like a later national song,

like a very great interpretation of that. That leads into his new record that, again, is out today called Live Forever. And you can hear the seeds of what he was doing on that covers record on this record of originals, even though this, I should point out that he made Live Forever first, I guess, and was shopping it around, and then he ended up doing it. doing the covers record, I think, almost on a lark, and it got a lot of attention and it really helped set up this new record. But, you know, it's a really impressive record that feels like a lot more epic than it's running

length. I think it's only about 36 minutes long. But he runs through so many different styles of music on the record and does it in a way that doesn't seem sticky. Like, it's very well integrated, you know, things like, I mean, he's drawing. on indie rock music, R&B, hip hop, even some country music and folk influences. Antler quotes from the, like one of the songs is a quote from the antlers in it. Like, I mean, and then he wraps on the next song and samples Dilemma by Nellie and Kelly

Rowland. Right, yeah, there's a song called Kelly Rowland on the record. And again, does it in a way that feels very organic and makes everything fit together. and just like a really smart, canny singer-songwriter, like just putting together this record that, again, it has such an ambition to it, but it feels so breezy at the same time. It's not heavy-handed.

But it's really not until you've listened to this record a bunch of times that you realize just, like, how ingenious a lot of the songwriting is. And I have to say that for me, like this is like one of the year's best debuts, if not the best debut. I'm trying to think of other great debuts that have come out this year.

But yeah, he's definitely like one of my rookies of the year for 2020. And definitely check out this record. Also check out the National Covers record. But yeah, I'm really excited about like what he's going to be doing after this. Yeah. I think he's got a ton of potential. Yeah, I think this is, it's so,

I don't know if, I don't know if weird is the right word, but just to see the people, like people really are pulling for this guy. I think the fact that he is, you know, 31 years old, like when he's making his debut and just kind of coming out of like, for lack of a better, like kind of nowhere. But yeah, just a very likable, very canny dude. And this record just like, like it has like, you know,

skyscraping indie rock that was similar to what he was doing with the national. But like he wraps on it and it's like good. Like it's not embarrassing. And he tackles like a lot of things like, you know, what it's like to be a black nerd. He has a song called Moss Moss Blurred about that specifically or like smoking weed with his dad or growing up in Oklahoma. All these like really heavy topics that people like are just have been discussing all year as far as inclusivity and indie rock. That was what the national EP was about. It's like I would go.

He would say I'd go to national shows. I wouldn't see other black guys there. And so I would, but you're right in that it's very brutal. I don't want to say breezy because it's very heavy topically, but it's a very listenable album. You know, he worked with Will Yip, who's just, you know, produced too many records that I love to name. And he's just, like, someone whose voice, like, excites me.

I, like, he could, he, anything that he does, like, from his frame, his perspective is going to be interesting to me. And I can't wait to see, you know, the reaction, uh, people have. have when this record finally comes out. I think you've seen like for someone at his level of like notoriety, he's gotten like maybe 12 to 15 long form interviews about this record. Like that's how excited people like people know he's the real deal and I'm just so happy that it's finally out. So again, that record is called Lift Forever. It comes out today. So you should go listen to it. By the way, because I interviewed Bartiz and my piece ran this week on Uprocks, I had to ask him if he was an

Oasis fan. And he had never heard the Oasis song, Live Forever. So I definitely felt like the geriatric Gen Xer in that equation. But Barty Strange, if you're listening, hopefully you've listened to Live Forever by Oasis by now. And I'd be curious to hear your opinion on that song. That is all the time we have on this episode of Indycast. Thank you again for listening to Ian and I talk and to listening to Me Self-Promote. By the way, my book, This Isn't Happening, is out right now. So please go check that out. Otherwise, we will be back next week with more reviews, trends, and all other sorts of indie rock stuff on Indycast.

And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.