Indiecast - 2013: The Official Start Of The 2010s

Episode Date: August 28, 2020

On the new episode of Indiecast, Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen look back to 2013, a pivotal year in recent indie history that saw the arrival of some of the biggest names in the genre, and the staying power of some of its veterans. 2013 brought the emergence of artists like Disclosure, Lorde, The 1975 and Haim. Vampire Weekend also dropped their seminal LP 'Modern Vampires Of The City' and Sky Ferreira finally delivered 'Night Time, My Time.' Back in our first episode about Arcade Fire's 'The Suburbs,' we noted how that album helped to mark the end of the aughts. In this episode, Hyden and Cohen declare 2013 to be the official beginning of the 2010s, with many artists still in the collective conscience today. Sign up for the Indie Mixtape newsletter at uproxx.com/indieSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's indie mixtape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. We also explore indie rock history. In this episode, we're going to go back to a pivotal year in recent indie rock history, 2013. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? So, I'm stoked because by the end of this episode, I'll have forfeited any claim I have left to critical objectivity. I mean, I think it's a myth to begin with, but like it's going to be gone. I think it's very freeing because when we talk about 2013, it's a lot of music that I should, by all rights, despise because we're going to start to see a themes. It sounds like, you know, a 3 p.m. set of Coachella. It sounds like the H&M at the Glendale Galleria. And yet, I was living a lifestyle that made it very much.

very amenable to that sort of music. Like, let me just go off for a bit. I was, you know, writing full time. I had not gone back to school yet. And the most emblematic part of it was in the summer of 2013. I was actually on a kickball team in Silver Lake. Moby was on our team for a few games. A guy who ended up marrying Sia for like a year,

a couple of adult skaters, a woman who did fashion design on a twin shadow video. And afterwards, we would go. we would after party at Thirsty Crow, which is a bar I know you're familiar with because Father John Missy wrote a song about it. It was across the street from where local natives made their sophomore album. So, I mean, I bring this all up not to flex at all, but like just to point out, like, I'm surprised we were even talking at that point, you know, just kind of given like how I look

back, it's like, wow, that is like so stereotypical like L.A. Like, how did I live with myself? But it was fun. You just had such an insane list of signifiers there for 2013. I'm trying to think like I think the funniest one for me was the adult skaters part. I think that was my highlight of that. I kind of just want to tank our outline right now and just talk about how good of a kickball player, Moby, was. He played one game.

He showed up for one game and he was super competitive. We lost that game. We lost most of our games because no one knew the rules. And then he had to go on tour afterwards. So from that point forward, because like rumor got around, that people thought I was Moby. This happened quite a few times in 2013. So shout out to that neck tattoo. No one ever makes that mistake anymore.

Well, I just want to say balls in your curt Moby. I want to hear Moby get on a podcast and talk about how Ian was as a kickball player. We need to start a Moby-I-N-Cohen-Few. I do not want beef with Moby. please, okay, bad pun, but like, I really... Well, for the good of the podcast, for the good of the podcast, I think that would, you know, give us a little more juice and, you know, we'll be shooting up the iTunes charts after that.

So the reason that we're going to be talking about 2013, I guess our timely hook for this, and it's a very, I guess, you know, it's not a great hook. It's not a terribly relevant hook, but, you know, we're looking for an excuse to talk about 2013. The reason why we are is that there's a new album out today called Energy, which is a very ironic title considering the album. It's by a duo called Disclosure.

And Disclosure, of course, put out their debut record. In 2013, that record was called Settle. And they were part of this, you know, freshman class of artists that emerged in 2013 that ended up having, I think, a big impact on indie music. And, you know, Disclosure is a group that I think has, faded a bit over time. But this was also the year that,

Hain put out their first record, the 1975 put out their first record, Lord put out her first record, artists that ended up having, again, a big impact on the shape that indie music took and how, I think in a lot of ways, it broke with the past, with what we used to consider to be sort of emblematic sonically of what indie music was. In this episode, we're going to be talking about how, like, that really, I think, took a decisive turn in 2013. we get to that, let's talk about disclosure. This was a

duo that emerged in the early 2010s made up of two brothers, Howard and Guy Lawrence. At the time that their first record settled came out, they were both pretty young. I think, like, the younger brother, Howard was like 19 years old. About 19. I think Guy

the older brother was 22. This was a record that I remember mainly for the breakout song, which is the single Latch. that featured a pre-fame Sam Smith on vocals. And I remember loving that song and listening to it all the time. And as I was preparing for this episode,

I listened to that song a bunch more. I think that song really holds up. It definitely reminds me of that year, you know, when I listen to it now. The rest of the record didn't make as much of an impression on me, although it was very critically acclaimed. I looked at the review on pitchfork. I got a 9.0 from Pitchfork.

I think it ended up being nominated for a Grammy that year for Best Dance Electronica album. And I feel like, I don't know what your memories are of this album, but to me, this kind of struck me as the kind of album where people who don't really listen to electronic music, like they might not have like any other electronic albums in their collection. Like this was the album, like the one electronic album in their collection. Like it was a very accessible record. They were sort of like a dumb down daft punk. in some respects. And it seems like, you know, that was maybe their entree into like the hip corners of indie music at that time because of their accessibility, but they also seemed maybe slightly

underground at the same time. Yeah, I think that you mentioned it's like kind of an electronic record for people who don't like electronic music. And I remember the people who were like super into electronic music thought like they were just frauds or they were people who were just kind of piggybacking on the more obscure kind of things going on with, you know, UK data. music in the UK Electro. But, you know, for me, when this record was starting to kind of brew, now this, in 2013, I felt like there was a lot more lead time. And also albums leaked. Like,

that was a thing back in 2013. So you could kind of tell in advance what we're going to, what was going to be a thing. And disclosure to me, that was going to be a thing. So I gave it more attention that I might otherwise give a similar record in 2013. And I mean, as someone with not a lot of investment in electronic music. It just sounded to me, like you said, a very accessible record. I think it was more kind of like basement jacks to me. But just a couple of hit singles, a couple of tracks that just kind of move the needle a bit. The guy from Friendly Fires was on there. And it was just a good record to like throw on when I had to do something for like 45 minutes at a time. Like I don't know, play to video games or like drive to work. So,

Yeah, I would say that when a fire starts to burn was my particular one. We played that song on the sidelines during the kickball league. But we also were playing like Yeezis too and the dog started barking. So we had to get rid of the stereo altogether. Like what did Moby think of disclosure? He wasn't around by that. He wasn't around by that time. Okay.

But the thing is like you mentioned, it's like that's a kind of record that in a way is kind of similar to what Movie did. Exactly. It arrived at a time that it didn't really set any trends. but it just, from that moment, you would think, like, this, when we look back on 2013 for better or worse, like, this is what all of it was culminating tours. Because it kind of, it was like EDM adjacent, not like music itself, but like the festivals like Ultra or, you know, just the Sahara Ten at Coachella. So it was that, it kind of paved the way a bit, like for chain smokers or like Kaya or something like that. I mean, it just seemed like, okay, when we're looking back at 2013, what it was all leading to, we're going to look back at this record, which kind of explains why they haven't aged particularly well.

Like, they were just kind of, they put things together rather than pushing things forward. Yeah, it was a very, again, the songs were very simple. And it was something that, you know, you didn't have to know about the history of electronic music to get into this record. You could just get into it because they were good pop song. And the chain smoker's comparison, I think, is very apt, actually. I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. Not only is a two guys, but, like, it is a very similar type of dynamic. Of course, chain smokers, I don't think ever really had, were they ever, like,

considered an indie group? Not really. I don't think so. But I think it's, when you think about, like, oh, it's, this is an indie record. Like, it had Sam Smith on it. And, like, I think about that when I look at where he's at now, similar to how, like, Adele's, like, biggest albums were on the same label that, um, released the monitor. And Paul Epworth was producing that. And he did like block party.

So it's just kind of weird how, um, indie kind of gets just like thrown around willy-nilly. But like, I think the point is that like disclosure was embraced by people who were otherwise listening to say Kurt Vile in 2013. So that's what it means to me, you know? It showed up on the same right. So they have this new album out called Energy. And we're not going to Sure do. We're not going to spend a ton of time on this record because, you know, I think it's fair to say that, you know, we were talking about Settle being an album where in 2013, if you were an indie music listener, if you were a pitchfork reader, you maybe got into that record because that was what was happening in indie music at the time, even if you weren't particularly well-versed in electronic music otherwise. I kind of think of, like, energy as a record where, like, this is a record made for people who, like, they're the last electronic record. they got was settle in 2013.

Or maybe it was Caracall, the record that Disclosure put out in 2015. And this is their third record. It's their first album in five years. And, yeah, I mean, this is a record. It kind of reminds me about our conversation about the washed-out album from a couple episodes ago where that album, you know, we talked about that in the context of Chill Wave and how that really felt like a deliberate evocation of that time. and not trying to move the ball forward,

but to remind people that, hey, you used to like this music, and this is music made in the same style. And so I'm reminding you that I still exist. And energy feels like a, we're reminding people that we still exist type record. It doesn't seem especially connected to 2020. I don't feel like disclosure necessarily has been like studying contemporary pop music.

It doesn't really feel like it fits in any kind of modern context. It feels like, again, like a record that could have come out in 2013, if not for some of the guest spots. We have Calaises on this record. Common shows up on this record. Maybe that could have happened in 2013. I mean, yeah, it's the kind of record where Common shows up on the last track. I feel like that kind of sums up what this album is like. So, yeah, we're going to be talking about this in a minute about this class of 2013 acts that emerged that year that really helped to kind of think change the face of

indie music in a lot of ways. And disclosure is part of that class, although unlike a lot of other acts from that year, I think it's fair to say that this group is like pretty faded and maybe even already exists as a nostalgia act if it's like not too early to say that. I mean, I hear this record and it just reminds me of the early 2010s. Well, I think that's an important thing to remember because like with washed out that I don't want to alienate, which I would I imagine the significant part of our audience, which are people that like kept up with like music websites in college and then kind of stopped and then just but like still want to find out about music. And disclosure, I think when I think about people I know in real life who would be interested in this album,

that's kind of it. You know, it's like, oh man, like when a fire starts to burn, we listen to that in college or whatever and things kind of happen. And when a new disclosure album comes out, it's like, oh, I remember that. As a matter of fact, they brought back the guy, the pre- who does the when a fire starts to burn sample and that to me just seeing like it's like when rappers like will like when they feel like they're being forgotten about they'll remind you that they did a song that was very very popular by like outright saying it and um you know disclosure it's it's a fascinating uh record to listen to in 2020 if only because it doesn't fit in any context like in any other year you know they like they would be playing the 7 p.m slot at you know coach

Chola or, you know, like opening for Chance the rapper or something along those lines. But those festivals don't exist. And the joke about Settle was that like it was the shoe buying soundtrack of 2013. But like you can't go to the mall now. And so nor can you go to like, you know, a high end club that or just a bar that serves like $15 cocktail. So like where are you going to experience a disclosure album in 2020? Because I think what it comes back to in 2013 is that I experienced a lot of this music in a social setting,

which made it a lot more, you know, made it easier to kind of, you know, just be like, okay, this is happening. That's cool. You know, it would be funny. I don't know if we'd want to do this on a podcast or someone should write this piece, but like do a ranking of like the records that were hurt the most by festivals not existing in 20. Like to me, like the number one record by far is the slow rush. Oh, yeah. I feel like that album was made to dominate music festivals,

and they just got the legs taken out from under them. I mean, I think still, I think a lot of people still really like that record, but I think it would have been bigger if they could have had festivals. No, run the jewels four. That were slow rush. Like that was going to lock down every single APM slot from like here to like from here to like Barcelona.

Oh, no, you know. Maybe like a little bit farther down the list, you'd have like the Kranben record. You know, I feel like they, that's like very festival music. You know, we've talked about disclosure. I mean, you had a funny line from our last episode about how the killers are the band that like, you know, they headline all the festivals that end up getting canceled in a normal year because there's no ticket sales being made. So yeah, yeah, this definitely feels like, yeah, related to shoe buying and,

in Coachella and a lot of sort of lifestyle music, we're not having that kind of lifestyle this year. I'm just going to put on this new record. Like what I did to get in the mood is like I listened to this record and just like waited in my own house for 10, for 10 minutes to get water. Like that's how I, like that's what got me in the mindset. I think it was effective. Well, let's, let's pivot to our larger conversation because I think ultimately we're

more interested in talking about 2013 than we are about this new disclosure. album. And I remember that year I wrote a column for Grantland when I was when I was working there about how I felt like there was this movement going on in indie music that really felt like a decisive break from the past. And it was tied with the release of the first Haim record Days Are Gone, which came out in the fall of 2013. And around that same time, we saw the first records, as I said before, from like the 1975, from Lord Churches put out their first record that year, Iconapop put out their first record. And I mean, they faded a little bit, but they were kind of a thing for a while. This wasn't a debut, but the third vampire weekend record,

modern vampires of the city, also came out that year. And that also feels a part of this in some way, just because of the participation of Ariel Reichstad with that record. And he ends up being a pivotal figure with a lot of these acts. And, you know, we talked in our Arcade Fire episode about how the suburbs helped to mark the end of the aughts in a way. And I think in a way that the 2010s didn't really begin until 2013. Like at that time, there was this long-running movement in critical circles, certainly, to make pop influences more acceptable in indie music. You know, there were a lot of think pieces.

I guess I'll utter the word pop-timism on this podcast, even though I feel like people who are not invested in, like, weird critical circle jerks in social media don't really care about that term. But like, you know, that idea that like pop music and rock music should be put on the same plane of authenticity and acceptability in all facets of music. I think what changed in 2013 is that it was no longer a conversation about like what's acceptable. But pop aesthetics actually became preferable in indie music. And it became the standard for how we talk about, you know, music that's considered innovative or forward thinking or relevant.

or simply hip. And, you know, when we talk about indie music in sort of like a broad classic sense, you know, we often think about music that is essentially derived from punk and like DIY, kind of early 80s indie music. This idea of music being maybe like of a lower fidelity, being gritty, being loud, being catchy, but also decisively anti-commercial in a way. And if you look at some of the big records, of the early 2010's albums that did get a considerable amount of attention in the indie press.

You have albums like The Monitor, say, for instance, by Titus and Dronicus, or Celebration Rock by Japan Droid, you know, two albums, of course, that we've talked a lot about here and in other forums. You know, those albums, to me, sort of exemplify those old-school indie rock type, you know, qualities or things that people would uphold. And I feel like in 2013, It was really the end of that. Like, I feel like after that, there were not going to be albums like that that were going to be considered sort of the focal point of indie music anymore.

And that had to do with the critical, critical conversation, but it also had to do with changes in popular taste. And, like, also us starting to listen to music exclusively via streaming, you know, and how, like, what kind of music's going to work well in that format versus, you know, how we used to listen to music. But yeah, I think when you listen to those records, again, you know, we have the Hym record, the 1975 record that came out that year. Lord, I mean, those three are definitely the stars of that freshman class of 2013, and we're going to talk a little bit more about the 1975 and Hime in a minute. But I'm just curious, like, what are your thoughts on 2013? Like, what are your memories of that and how do you feel like that changed indie music? Well, you know, if we can call Larry Fitzmaurice a friend of the pod and I think we can. He hit on a similar idea like earlier this week and I swear to

God we were going to do this episode before he published that piece. I have the receipts. But then he told me it's like that he was going to publish that piece like a couple, like a month ago. So we were all kind of. We should get we we should give a shout out to his substack by the way. Was it last donut of the night? Yes. He wrote about this same idea like on in his newsletter this week. Yeah. Talking about 2013 being a pivotal year. Yeah. And, you know, I think about it similarly in that, you know, by that point, like pop music or like what was something that was becoming more embraced. But this was the year, I think, that the quiet part was set out loud because you would see albums like Justin Timberlake's

2020 experience and random access memories by daft punk. Just like not even remotely indie albums. like we're not talking about like in the past we'd be like something like robin uh being considered like pop music but kind of from an indie sort of standpoint like this was like okay you know 20-20 experience like one of the songs like sounds like sounds kind of like jimmy world like yeah this is us man like and deaf punk's random access memories it was kind of if you can't beat them join them sort a year i don't think those albums were like very good and i think people kind of found that out pretty quickly. But kind of...

I still like random access memories. I'll stand up for that. I feel like time has not been good to that album critically. The 2020 experience, I thought, was bad at the time. And like, I think people have come to come around to that. Although, people still defend that. I've made jokes about the 2020 experience on Twitter.

And the JT defenders will come out of the woodwork sometimes. God bless them. Strawberry bubble gum or something like that. or whatever like the big songs were from the suit and tie yeah god god bless them man like that i admire that um and i think just otherwise when we talk about like acts like hyam or churches i mean they do come from this kind of like indie quote unquote aesthetic in that their bands um with identifiable like drums uh bass guitar like the power trio sort of set up but uh it it it just became like what of course were pop.

Like why would we hide behind things and why we record lo-fi? And you could also throw in Sky Ferreira in there as well. And Blood Orange, I think that's an important artist to name because, you know, Dev Hines, he used to be in a band called Test Icicles, which was sort of like scrappy British punk. And then he made an album with Mike Mojus as light speed champion.

And I think that in general it was, I think in a lot of ways, like, you know, critics are about access. And in the 2010s, it was just, like, you know, you go to a party sponsored by Tito's vodka and, like, you know, get to hang out with waves and maybe the guy from beach fossils. But now there was more a sense of, like, it was kind of working alongside pop music. It's like now we're in, like, the Coachella VIP area. And just kind of getting away from everything that had kind of defined the 2010s, which was like, you know, the Arcade Fire, earnestness. Even they kind of made their pop album. Animal Collective being kind of like Tweed and kind of googly-eyed or like grizzly bears like or dirty projectors kind of doing a more

art pop sort of thing. Yeah. All the things that like were seen in the past is like defense mechanisms so you wouldn't be seen as pop. We're now just like let's just do away with that. And it was a really interesting development to see it at the time. Yeah, it was definitely, I think, a pendulum swing from, I think, what some people felt were the excesses of Otts-era indie. Yeah. You mentioned Animal Collective and Grizzly Bear, who were bands I really loved at the time. And I still really, I mean, I like the records, especially that they put out in the aughts. But I think there was this sense of, like, indie music giving very arty, you know, sort of obscurity for obscurity.

sake. I would also group in like the dark was the night. Oh yeah. Crew, you know, the National and Bonny Verre who are, they obviously, I mean, still thriving. Anyways, they, yeah, they, in many ways they got more popular in the 2010s. But, yeah, I think, especially like in the critical community, I think there was a feeling that, you know, there was this, you know, we're listening to Animal Collective, this music that like, even the record like Mary Weather Post Pavilion, which had some pop influences to it,

I think a lot of people just felt like things were getting maybe a little too esoteric. And you could look at the pop world and it just seemed more fun maybe to people. It seemed more fun. And I think that like people stopped taking pride and kind of being like unpopular or whatever. Like I think if you look back far enough in history,

like the critical consensus is like very close to what was actually popular at the time. Like, but now, now there was just really no separation whatsoever. Like there was really no counterweight. Unless, unless we want to talk about like what was happening, like what was bubbling under at the time, which was,

I have to say it, like, you know, this rise of emo and pop punk that was happening just a... Take a drink, everybody. Yeah. Take a drink. Ian said emo.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like our audience would start drinking at noon on Friday guys anyway, so I'll allow it. But I think that's, And that's an entirely different conversation. But I think a lot of that did rise up, not as like a response, but I think it was well suited

as a counterbalance to this embrace of like slicker sounds and bigger access and just critics kind of being not antagonists towards the popular discourse, but kind of along for the ride, kind of treating it like politics where it's like kind of a horse race sort of thing. But, you know, I don't want to like project too much though because like people legitimately love this music and this is just where we stood at in 2013 after years of like pop and indie music being equally accessible and no MTV and no real radio and this is just where we were at. I mean I think you know I think the positive case that you would make for the shift that happened in 2013 is that if you look at the history of indie music you know it seemed like there had that we had come to a point

like where a lot of indie bands were only listening to like other indie bands and they were recycling a lot of the same influences. So you ended up with like, you know, the fourth or fifth wave of like post-punk revivalism, or you have like another band that sounds like Husker Do, or you have another band that, you know, sounds like whatever, you know, well-respected indie touchdown there is. And, you know, you can only do that so many times before it starts to get really, really boring. And I feel like with a lot of these acts from 2013, you know, one of the, I mean, like, like, Hime in the 1975, Lord, Vampire Weekend, they're all very different bands,

but I think one thing that unites them is that they all have pretty Catholic taste. I think they're all interested in... An ironic thing to say, given that, like, Vampire Weekend and Haim are like kind of notoriously Jewish, but... Well, exactly. But yeah, Catholic in the sense of having

wide-ranging taste, you know, having, like, you know, being interested in, you know, classic rock history, but also having a real appreciation for, like, various forms of pop, R&B, hip-hop. pop and bringing that into this indie context.

And I think that's the positive thing. I think one thing that if you want to make a criticism of this, it's that it really did, I think, eliminate any distinction between like the underground and pop music. The idea that indie music, I think at one time, was maybe considered to be the alternative. Like literally, that was the term people used for a while, alternative music to what was being sort of promulgated.

by like major corporations what you would hear on the radio, that this was something that would maybe be a little bit more experimental, a little edgier, a little noisier, a little angrier. And it seems like at least in the mainstream of indie, like they weren't really offering an alternative anymore. It was like we are actually, we want to join now pop music. We want to be a part of that. And I think the interesting is like you mentioned alternative.

Like alternative rock in 1995 was, you know, some of the most popular bands in the world. So I think this is kind of what we're seeing right now. When we look back on it, it's like, oh, yeah, like indie. Like, it's similar to, like, the way we talk about, like, someone like Beck or what have you. Like, I think there's a case to be made that, like, maybe that a lot of these bands are kind of filling that same sort of space that those bands were, like, really popular bands, but also ones that were kind of a little bit left of center compared to, like, the biggest pop acts, you know? So two bands that we want to talk about in this episode a little bit more in depth are, as we said before, Heim and the 1975. Because I think along with Lord, they are the most successful from this class of 2013 acts.

And they both put out records that have been really popular and acclaimed in 2020. Of course, the Heim record is Women in Music Part 3. And the 1975 put out notes on a conditional form. I guess the 1975 record is more of a polarizing record as we would expect from that band. Some people really didn't like that record. Some people really don't like that record, Steve. Yeah, well, we'll get to that in a moment. But I think it's fair to say that the 1975 are, at this point, one of the emblematic bands of indie music.

They are passionately written about, either positively or negatively. And of course, Haim, I think they've really graduated to, I think, I don't want to say elder statesman status because they haven't been around that long but they are I think looked at as like by a lot of people is like one of the great bands I know like Spin Magazine they did that list of like their 50 favorite rock bands recently

which was a very interesting list you know we'll leave it at that but like they put Haim at number one on their list and I actually felt like I think there's a lot of people that agree with that And so yeah, I mean, these records, this is a great thing about our podcast, I guess, because these records already came out, but we're choosing to talk about them now anyway. We're not just adhering to the release schedule regimen.

Yeah. I think it's almost like more fun to like talk about them a couple months after because, you know, nowadays, like I was saying before, there's, there's, you rarely get the records that far in advance and there's no leak. So when you experience the record with everyone else, you just, kind of get inundated by all the takes and all the opinions. And like, it's hard to develop a real, you know, a real solid opinion about it in, like, a weekend.

And so I think it's, I think it's almost more fun to, like, look back after a couple months. Because, you know, we've all experienced a couple years in the past couple months. And, you know, as weird as it is, say, like, yeah, man, notes on a conditional form holds up, like a record that came out, like, three months ago. Right. the same time it does seem like it's a little bit of ancient history so i mean i like to see how these things have settled like now that you can have an opinion and not get immediately like hit by a title wave of uh takes so let's yeah i mean and i think it's fair to say that both of these

records will end up on year end list absolutely i think especially the the heim record women's music part three i mean that definitely is like one of the most critically acclaimed albums of the year. And I think popular response too was like really strong. I think people really like that record. And, you know, my history with Hime is, you know, I remember when Days Are Gone came out, and I really liked that record. And I think what I responded to in that album is just the obvious lineage that they have with other L.A. bands of the past. Like, they've been compared to Fleetwood Mac a lot. You know, I think that there's, you know, even elements of like, you know, Carol King, the Eagles, You know, Linda Ronstat, all that sort of 70s, L.A. type stuff.

But also with a very modern sensibility. They weren't doing an explicitly retro, you know, musical presentation. They were incorporating, as I said before, like elements of, like, Destiny's Child and, like, other forms of pop music. And it's what made that record, I think, such an emblematic record of 2013. Their next record, which came out four years later, something to tell you, I thought personally was significantly weaker. I thought it just kind of repeated what they did. did on Days Are Gone, just not as well. I wrote a review of that record, and a lot of people didn't like that review. I think a lot of people disagree with me. Maybe they really like that

album. It's one of those reviews, like, where you see yourself getting sub-tweeted by other critics, like in your own feed, like people that you follow are sub-tweeting you, which is pretty, pretty wild. But I stand by it. I don't think that record is all that strong. I will say, though, that women in music part three, to me, like, it does feel like a return to form. And I think it really shows them making strides in like how they make records. You know, because again, going back to a point I was making earlier about like classic indie, you know, there's a certain premium that's placed on rawness like in the production, you know, again, sort of like a lower fidelity, very gritty, you know, put another way,

you know, there's a sort of romantic, you know, people romanticize records that sound like shit, basically. And I think, you know, that idea is definitely out of vogue, I think in current sort of mainstream indie music. And I feel like this album really exemplifies that. Like this album to me, like it sounds immaculate. It's very well produced, very well put together.

I think it sounds incredible on headphones. Like I prefer to listen to it on headphones versus like on a car stereo. And, you know, sometimes to me that sort of like sonic perfection, it can come across a little bland, you know? And that was my problem with the second record. I think that when Haim doesn't have

great songs at the center. They don't have a whole lot else there to grab onto. It can just sound, you know, again, like a little blah to me. But, and I think even on this record, I'm not sure like what Heim has to offer beyond delivering great bops, you know? Like, I think that's what they do, which is a double-edged sword. It's kind of like what I love about them. Steve just said bops, you know, drink.

If you're drinking, go ahead and just like finish whatever drink you have, man. I know. Please, please roast me on Twitter for saying that. But it's part of what I love about Hime. I think, like, you know, they deliver great pop music, and they're pretty straightforward about that. And, you know, like the song, The Steps, for instance, I think is like one of their best singles.

And there's other songs I think that are just tremendous on this record. How do you feel about Hine? in 2020. Well, I mean, in 2013, I like days are gone as well. I think the Fleetwood Mac comparisons were kind of, it's just kind of funny because, like, when I think about Fleetwood Mac now besides, like, the music, I just think about, like, how much they hated each other and like how much that tension played out in their music. And like, high and like famously are like, they're all like, you know, super tight as sisters.

And that record to me, I thought of it along the lines of like Wolfgang Amadeus, Phoenix, or Hot Fuss. as like a record that was pretty top-heavy. Like the singles were incredible and the, I guess, the album cuts held serve. Just a really good time capsule of 2013 for all the reasons that you mentioned. I'll tell you what. Like, I don't know if I listened to the 2017 record that much, but like if I could change your mind gets played in Ralph's so much. And I heard it's like it is a Ralph's classic.

And I thought to myself, like, you know, during this six-month album rollout, like, I went, like, when I started going back in the supermarkets, like, after COVID, I heard if I could change your mind. And I thought to myself, like, is this kind of like in the same way, like festivals being canceled, you know, really affected Tame Impala, like whether, you know, people going to Ralph's less is going to somehow harm the Hyam album release. Because if these songs can't get played in Ralph's or CVS or whatever. But that being said, I mean, I think when I came into this record, I was like really pleasantly surprised by it. I think the production is in its own way scuffed up a bit, like Rostom from Bampi formerly a Vampire Weekend, really makes it just an interesting Sonic album. I think that it's an album to me of like second or third singles. Like they don't quite pop off the way that The Wire did. but it's where every song is the second or third single in a way

and it's more consistent to me and I really enjoyed it it reminds me a bit of like what happened with the XX where they put out the record that like the second record coexist that wasn't quite as well liked and then they just come back with a more vibrant a fun album even though there's like a lot of you know like heartbreak that goes into this record as well

So I mean, do I love it to the same extent like that some other records? Probably not. I think that in some ways like when we talk about objectivity, they remind me a lot of like this is super specific about like the really popular kids at like Jewish summer camp who like you want to hate. But they turn out to be like super nice. And that's the same thing I think about vampire weekend as well. So I find like I kind of need an underdog sort of story to like really. connect with something and I just I'll never get that I don't hold it against them but you know I just

thought it was super weird when people talked about this new record as like a comeback or like they were not given their due and like days are gone was like a top 10 pass and job album like that was a success across the board and when I think about like what it like when bands that were like dismissed in 2013 by critics like I think of the 1975 I can tell you exactly what it was like to be a 1975 backer in that time. Well, speaking of dismissing the 1975, let's talk about their new record or their newish record notes on a conditional form. Look, you know, if you follow me or me or Ian, you probably know that I was not a fan of this record. I was actually like pretty annoyed by this album and I wrote like, you know, a pretty, uh, I wrote a flat out pan of this

record. I was pretty hard on it. And Maddie Healy actually retweeted my review for a while, and then he like un-retweeted it, I think, because fans were starting to come after me a bit. But that's okay. He could have kept that up. I actually appreciated him doing that because it gave that review a lot more traffic than it would have had otherwise probably. But my stance on that record, it really comes from a position of actually liking a lot of what the 1975 have done up to this album. And you and I have talked about the 1975 before. I actually feel like I was defending this band when it was more fashionable to not like them. If I could take that position there that like I was ahead of the backlash and then I was leading the backlash against them.

But, you know, for me, I feel like the 1975 at their best, like, like Hime, you know, they're really good at making like great pop songs. You know, I think of songs like love me, sex, somebody else. it's not living if it's not with you. All those songs, you can't take away just how undeniably tuneful and infectious they are. But unlike Haim, I feel like the 1975 have pretensions to be greater than just like a really good pop group.

You know, they see themselves as like album artists and social commentators and like poet laureates of our millennial angst. And, you know, despite the fact that in my view, like they've never made a front to back great album. And Maddie Healy, in my opinion, He's a frequently facile lyric who conflates merely referencing things with actually saying something about those things that that's meaningful. You know, to me, like, when he's wearing leather pants and thrusting his crotch on SNL, I appreciate that. I appreciate having that kind of frontman in modern, you know, indie music.

But, like, when he's stroking his chin in interviews and, like, larding his albums with, like, these endless, like, spoken word tracks and he's writing these, like, vague lyrics that, like, to me, don't really mean much on the page, but, like, music critics infuse with, like, their own sort of think piece projections. I just get impatient with it. I don't know. I just don't think he's as smart as he thinks he is or that other people like to say that he is in their, in their reviews. You know, like, I got really annoyed, honestly, like, when he was, like, making fun of Imagine Dragons for, like, writing, like, radioactive and calling that an empty pop song. Because I'm like, dude, why are your songs any more significant? I feel like he should be defending Imagine Dragons

because in a lot of ways they're doing a similar sort of thing where they're rock bands, but they're also incorporating a lot of different influences. I guess I would just respect him more if he defended the lowest hanging fruit in music rather than ripping on it. To me, it struck me as like bullying behavior. That really turned me off.

I think at this point, like the 1975 have made you know, it's like our brand is that we make self-indulgent albums that are loaded with filler. And somehow the filler is significant because I guess it like signifies the overload of internet culture. You know, like I've seen that written many, many times about the 1975. It's like, oh, there's less good songs on this album because that's what the internet is like or social media or whatever. It's like, we got to put that critical cliche to bed. But anyway, I'm ranting about this record. let you have the floor now because you like this album more than I do.

So, like, yeah, what would you say about the notes on a conditional form? Well, if you've guys gotten anything out of this episode is that Steve draws the line with dissing Imagine Dragons. And this guy was on Twitter yesterday defending Kings of Leon. So, I mean, this guy's full of surprises as far as like, you know, what Radio Rocky is willing to stump for. But look, man. If we're talking about objectivity, like, it sounds like you want them to be in excess, and I kind of like the fact they're more like the smashing pumpkins.

I think they kind of hit at the kind of cross-section of that. But like, look, man, I have a 1975 screenshot as my Twitter avatar. I mean, I was down for these guys since 2011 when they were called the Slowdown. You know, Maddie Healy will make these playlists where he puts in like bands like Oliver Houston. and like a Japanese emo band called the summer ends. Like bands you've never heard of unless you're on like the Reddit's backslash emo thread. And look, I just am inclined to appreciate whatever it is they do,

even when they do some dumb shit, I think that makes them interesting. Particularly when I compare them to like Vampire Weekend and Hym, who like everything they do is just so well thought through and so well executed. To me, it's kind of boring. like the 1975, like they put out an album, there's going to be some points where it's a little bit dull

or they just completely face plant. And the fact that they're willing to look stupid is something that resonates with me. And so I think one of the worst, like I appreciate that Love It If We Made It, Made them finally as appreciated as I think they should be. I think it was the worst song to do that because it's kind of a dumb song

and it was it kind of speaks as you were saying like critical need to like broadly gesture it's like this is what 2018 was like and um i think there are just so many better songs that talk like talk about like their relationship with the internet which is really like the biggest thing that most people think about but with this record um i like the fact that it's like 80 something minutes rather than like 75 or 74 because that just to me signifies this is no longer now we think of this as a playlist similar to like you know Drake's more life or um you know if if you're still reading this it's too late and you know at the beginning it's like I do think it starts out in the most asinine way like I I skip the intro the same way I skip the intro in Wu Tang forever

but it when I take it in like 20 minute 15 minute chunks nowadays because that's how long it takes for me to get to work or to do a note. And I get lost in it in the way that I would if I was just driving around as a teen or if I'm playing like Grand Theft Auto and you're just listening to one of the radio stations. And it's really immersive in that way. But it all, even if they do go off on various tangents, there's still like a 1975ness to it. Like Maddie Helia has such a strong personality even in the worst tracks where you know who you're listening to. And I think that like a lot of the songs that were called maybe filler are actually fascinating to me like roadkill for example that is the epitome of a deep cut like where they're kind of doing like bar band blues and talking about like

getting heckled in texas but yeah i just appreciate the fact they committed to that experiment it's a really poignant song same with birthday party people shit on them for that pine grove lyric but i mean how many time how much time have we spent on twitter trying to untangle that controversy and it's like yeah it's weird no one knows what to do with it i think it's um i think it's really improved for me and i mean they have cutty ranks on a song um i mean how could you not be moved by guys man the last song like the dudes rock anthem uh i mean we could write a song about like that about our podcast like if i had to if like is this is this the best nineteen seventy five album no i think that their 2016 album is their masterpiece. I think that every record they do is not perfect, but it's also

awesome. And this one will, I mean, this one will end up in my, you know, I don't know what, probably top 10 or whatever. I appreciate what they're doing. I do think this is probably the last album, album they're going to make. I think that they're already thinking towards like EP's or maybe playlist or I think the idea of what a 1975 record's going to look like in 2022 or 2023 is going to be very different but like no matter what like I just appreciate the fact that they're around like how many bands I know you got shit on for not liking this record but like how many of like our biggest bands can get like kind of made fun of and still be oh kind of okay with it because I don't think you could I don't think you could lobby these sort of criticisms at like a lot

of the critical favorites around right now. I mean, I agree. You know, look, as a music critic, I appreciate the 1975 existing because you're right. Like, being annoyed by the 1975 is more interesting than, like, liking a lot of other people's albums. Like, I will definitely admit that. It's the same thing, like, where, I said this in a previous episode that, like, you know, it's a shame that, like, Father John Misty isn't giving interviews right now because, you know, I know a lot of people find him annoying, but like the indie world is more interesting.

Like when he's giving interviews, when Maddie Healy is giving interviews, even though like Maddie Healy... I think he's off Twitter now. Yeah, I think he got off Twitter. Yeah, but like, you know, I, even when he's saying things that annoy the shit out of me, I'm like, well, I'm glad that he's doing this because, you know, most musicians don't have anything interesting to say, you know, they're not even worth getting annoyed over. So I appreciate that.

And to go back to what you were saying before about, you know, all the experiments on this record and how ungainly it is and how that is something you really love about it. And I appreciate that too, although I just feel like the 1975, they've done that several times now. I feel like even smashing pumpkins, they only made one melancholy in the infinite sadness. But they also made like Siamese Dream, which is like a pretty straightforward record like where every song is great. And I feel like the 1975, you know, they can't just keep making the same album over and over again. I think at some point it becomes a very important. It becomes a a liability when you, in my view, again, make albums that just have a lot of filler on them.

Next, you know, then they'll just make, they'll just make their Rick Rubin acoustic record that's 40 minutes. Well, like, make it, make a, well, I, I can't remember who did this interview if it was Andrew Unterberger at Billboard. There was some interview they did with Healy. I think he brought up the idea of like making their version of, is this it? Make a 10 song 40 minute album where every song is great and you could still do all the genre experiments, but you just don't have to have these interminable bits where everyone skips them after that. I just feel like, you know, their second record, I think, is a very ungainly record. There's lots of experiments on there. It's like, I like that record more than this record. I just feel like if you make that album every time,

at some point, you have to call them out on it and say, you're just undisciplined. You know, like, you're not making good albums. You know, like, we can't just keep making this thing. And like, oh, it's great that you're making albums that, like, we skip half the tracks on. You know, like, it's... Steve, I just want to point out that, like, you're the biggest guided by voices fan that I know. Well, and... Well, even, like, guided by voices, like, and as much as I love them, there's lots of albums of theirs that I think are kind of boring, you know, that I don't get into.

Well, they also put out, like, four or five a year. Right. But I think back to, like, what Joyce Manor told me when I interviewed them, because they're influenced by guided by voice, and they were like, yeah, we're, like, kind of guyed by voice. and they were like, yeah, we're like kind of guided by voices if they just did the 10 good songs on the record. Right. Exactly. I think that would be a very interesting experiment. I want to see if the 1975 can actually do that. Or maybe they just can't do that. Maybe they're only capable of writing three or four good singles at a time. And this is just sort of like a crutch that they can kind of say like, well, this is what we do. Yeah, this five-minute spoken word interlude at the beginning of the record, we know you're not going to listen to it, but that's like part of the experience of the album. It's like, no, sometimes tracks are just not good and they shouldn't be on there

and you should just, you know, you've already made your excessive record. Let's make something that's a, that would be like a radical move for them to do. I'm sure Medi Healy cares about my opinion and he's going to take that to heart and all that stuff. One thing I want to bring up quick and we're running along here, which I knew we would do

talking about 2013, but I just wanted to throw this theory out to you quick. you know, Taylor Swift put out folklore this year. She did. As you might have heard, some people, it's like, I hope she can get some more attention. You know, I hope someone can actually give this record the light of day. It's kind of flown out of the radar. I think a mention on this podcast is really going to give her the boost she needs, man. But, you know, Taylor Swift, obviously not an indie artist, but I feel like she's sort of

been a peripheral figure in a lot of ways to this. I mean, it's weird to refer to Taylor Swift as a peripheral figure. But, you know, I think of the record in 1989, for instance, which to me was, like, her version of, like, a Haim record in a lot of ways. Or, like, of a sort of new indie music, you know, it had a very sort of indie pop sound to it, I think, in 2014. And I think about folklore, and it really is, like, a throwback to, like, The Dark Was the Night indie that we were talking about earlier and how, you know, the indie music that emerged in 2013, it kind of felt like a reaction against that in a way. Are we on the verge in the 2020s of like that sort of aughts era? Maybe, you know, more introspective, more sort of self-consciously serious indie music coming back into vogue? Well, I want to say that like Taylor Swift is non-Indy artist.

Her album got an 8.0 on pitchfork, so she's an emo artist. Yes. But I think I just wish if that was the case that was going to mark a return to Darkwoods the Night Nostalgia. I wish this happened a couple months ago because I was. pitching a 10-year anniversary piece on Yay Sayers Odd Blood to Crickets. I really have, if anyone wants to give me a shot at that, please. But I digress. But I don't, I don't know if we're going to like head towards that, you know, 2009 just yet. I don't think we're quite there. What I do think we're in the middle of is earlier in the 2000s, like OC, not,

not necessarily blog rock, but when I listen to like Hym's new record, it reminds me a lot of Claros Immunity, which is another album that like, you know, the narrative made kind of intolerable until I listen to it. It's like, hey, wait, this is actually my shit right here. That kind, that sort of OC-ish, like kind of a little gritty, but not quite, like sort of like death cabish in that, in that way. I think we're going to see like a lot of that music and I think we can hear that with like soccer mommy as well. Kind of coming back around, we're not quite at the precipice of like the artful, like tasteful. I think that I don't see this album really

taking us there just yet, but I think we're low-key doing 2004, 2005 around that sort of time. So I don't know. Maybe we'll get like, you know, a revival of like Illinois or like those albums from that time. Well, I was going to

see you said, O.C. Like, you know, we've got to do a Phantom Planet slash Rooney episode. Yeah, fun fact. Fun fact. The first time I saw High and Perform Live was 2012 before days are gone they were opening for phantom planet see there you go fan of planet that's going to be the next episode of this podcast can't wait for it and people were saying like yeah i've heard about hym they you know they've been shopping around for years and they just can't break and lo and behold you know it's they just need to they had not established

their sound but uh yeah that's i am down for a runy episode dude i've heard so many bad stories about i open for runy and they were total dicks to us but that's neither here nor there All right, well, we'll do the Rooney Exposé in a future episode. I'm down. All right, we've reached the part of our episode where we like to recommend things. We call it Recommendation Corner. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so I saw this morning on Twitter that Vice published their top 50 Landfill Indie list.

Now, I personally love lists, especially if they're from like subgenres. Now, what the hell is Landfell Indy? If we're talking about like O.C. and Blog Rock, like, this is what was happening in British rock music around that time. Like, after the Libertines and the Strokes, it was kind of the new indie era revival. And bands like The Cribs, Maximo Park, editors, pigeon detectives, like basically what the buzzbin was to the 1990s. I think that's what Landfill Indy was for the UK. They don't mean, like, Landfill Indian, it's obviously derogatory, but you look back at this list and it's like, oh, man, like, I love that editor's song. And like, I haven't heard of like half these bands, but nonetheless, it's like, it feels like ancient history to see a time when like, first off, like Arctic monkeys were just kind of like a British band that was like, you know, post-libert teens.

But it just takes me back to the good old days of like being super interested in what Maximo Park had to say. Like all these bands, like for the most part, they had like the type names like, you know, like the cribs or the pigeon detectives. And I would recommend reading this list just to see like how quickly things can change in indie music. Because like what they were also saying is that like this is like somehow responsible for like a turn of the decade like Lady Gaga or La Rue or what have you. I would go to a landfill indie night. this list is like the Lord's work to me. It is remembering some guys on a higher plane. Well, it's remembering some guys and it's also, again, learning about some guys.

As you said, I was reading this list and I mean, I was fascinated by it, but like Pete and the Pirates, like that band, like, who the hell are Pete and the Pirates? I mean, there's like definitely bands that were, you know, maybe they had their 15 minutes in England, but they didn't really translate to America. But you're right. It's so fascinating to, for me, almost. to read about the bands, I don't know more than the ones that I do know. And it just made me think about the American equivalent of the vaccines. I mean, I reviewed a lot of these bands, but like four years after they made the songs on this list. I remember feeling kind of wistful when I saw the Zootons on this list because I remember

buying like a Zootons album at Best Buy for like $599 or something. So that was like, oh yeah, I remember that song. Vines Highly Evolved is like Sergeant Pepper's of that. realm. Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. So that's another thing that we need to get into at some point. Like we should do our American landfill indie, you know, counterpoint to that list. That'd be a lot of fun. Rogue wave, baby. Rogue wave. The album I'm going to talk about this is the opposite of Ian Cohen music. I think I can say for sure. This is an album. It's called Fall Spring by Zachary Kale. This album was described to me by my friend. And he's also the producer of this podcast, Brian Brinkman,

as feeling like a lazy day at the cabin, which I think Ian has already fallen asleep at that description. But like, you know, I would recommend this record to anyone who like, yeah, loves Kurt Bile, Steve Gunn, you know, our boy Raleigh Walker. I think there's some shades of that as well. He's a singer-gatarist from Brooklyn. And it's really, I think he aspires to write in the style of like a lot of the great classic singer, songwriters where it's like Bob Dylan, Towns Van Zant, there's a little bit of Leonard Cohen.

You know, there's just like a lot of melodic songs that often end up kind of drifting into like really cool guitar solos towards the end of the song, which I have to admit for me is if you can do that and do it well, you're going to have me on board. And, you know, similar to the artist I mentioned before, again, I think if you love like Waking on a Pretty Days by Kurt Vile, I think, there's a lot of songs in that style on this record. And, you know, now that we're heading into Labor Day weekend, you know, summer is mostly in our review at this point. I think that this is a record that you could spend time with over Labor Day weekend

and think about all the weirdness and awful things that have happened in the past several months. And, you know, maybe just feel a little chill about it, you know. You can enjoy it, have a nice beer and a coozy, sit in your backyard in a lot of, on chair and enjoy this record. I have a feeling that if you put it on, you're going to want to listen to it many times in a row. It's just that kind of record. And I don't think that record will end up in a landfill, but who knows? We may all end up in a landfill at some point. Ironically, like, 2013 was a year I really liked waking on a pretty days as well, because my life was way more lazier than it is right now. So I don't know. That was a great year.

You know, there's a lot of records we didn't even talk about that came out that year. That don't fall into this sort of like sort of pop indie realm but yeah waking on a pretty days you know you talked about yeezus deaf heaven sunbaylor came out that record that came out that year uh lots of great record so you know listen to zachary kale and then you know listen to some records from 2013 uh walk down memory lane and if you're looking for more music recommendations sign up for the indie mixtape newsletter you can go to uprocks com backslash indie and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box. We enjoyed our walk down memory lane here on Indycast and we're so grateful that

you listen to us and we'll be back with more talk about indie music next week.