Indiecast - 2023 Is A Weak Year For Music So Far (Maybe) and The Legacy Of The Cure

Episode Date: May 19, 2023

If there is one thing that we love here at Indiecast, it is festival posters with absolutely chaotic energy. So Steven and Ian were psyched this week to see the lineup for Riot Fest in Chicago, which is topped by big-time bands like Foo Fighters, Death Cab For Cutie and Queens Of The Stone Age. But the real action takes place further down the list — where else can you see Ani DiFranco, Mr. Bungle and Insane Clown Posse in the same place? Also, apparently Corey Feldman is also appearing at this festival? Simply incredible. (:27)From there, Steven asks Ian about the state of music in 2023. Specifically, is this a weak year for consensus album of the year candidates? Caroline Polachek and Boygenius are early contenders, and there are artists on the horizon (PJ Harvey, Rihanna, Jenny Lewis) who might contend. But this year feels like we might be at the end of something. What is it, though? (11:08)After that, there's a discussion about the legacy of The Cure, who are back on the road this month (24:15). (Steven also wrote about them this week.) Why is this band so central to the history of modern indie and alternative rock? What is their best work, and where should a newbie get started?In Recommendation Corner (1:00:07), Ian talks up the British post-punk band Mandy, Indiana, while Steven stumps for two other British acts, the soft-rock singer-songwriter Westerman and the art-rock combo Bar Italia.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 139 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about potential album of the year candidates and discuss the legacy of the cure. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's excited to see Anni DeFranco and Insane Clown Posse at Riot Fest. Ian Cohen, Ian, how are you? Not as excited as I am to see Alien Ant Farm and RA the Rugged Man at the Gathering of the Jugglers,

which was announced a couple days ago, man. Riot Fest really stole its thunder, didn't it? Yeah, so this was announced this week, the lineup for Riot Fest, which, if you don't know, traditionally a punk festival that takes place in Chicago, although now it's sort of like just an all-purpose rock festival. with other things thrown in. And you can really see it in the lineup poster that they unveiled this week. And look, if you listen to this show, you know that we have a weakness here for chaotic festival lineups,

which is why we love things like the Beale Street Festival in Memphis and shaky knees. That's not actually too chaotic. That's kind of chaotic at times. But just like these local festivals, like where you can see Snoop Dog and then the gin blossoms, and then like 311, and then, you know, Huey Lewis in the news, you know, like, where they're just throwing everything at the wall. And you can see this happen at Riot Fest, and it's cool because typically, like, these big festivals, the Coachella's and, you know, the Bonaroos, it feels like the same people play

these festivals every year. Riot Fest, though, it's really getting chaotic here. looking at the poster at the top pretty normal you got foo fighters and turnstile on Friday Postal Service death capture cut for cutie queens of the Stone Age on Saturday Sunday the cure

and the Mars Volta which I think we're all we're on board for all those headliners right Ben Giver getting big time money not so much as Walter Shrifles who's playing in three different bands on this festival so well yeah I mean once you get in

like the the lines beyond the headliners, it's just beautiful. So like the first line below the headliners, you have Mr. Bungle, Tiga, Tegan and Sarah, 100 Gex, the Gaslight Anthem, and AFI. Mr. Bungle listed first. Yeah, I didn't know they pulled that much. I mean, like, these are people for whom, like, the Mars Volta is a little too poppy and cute, you know, like they got to, they got to give something for those guys.

Yeah, like the Mr. Bungle crowd will be a fascinating thing to behold for those who are there. By the way, are we going to angle for some sort of like Indycast presence at this festival? Whatever favors or goodwills we can cash in to do this live.

I think if it's not this, what do we even hear for? Like people need us to, you know, remember, because there's definitely some there are definitely some guys to remember on this festival poster. I mean, we have cults. I didn't expect

them to be on there. Shout to them. Balancing Composure. Oso Oso is on there. They're not guys to remember, but I just love the fact that this festival was able to put together like a rock lineup without doing like the Rock La Hama

thing where it's, you know, you get like death tones and tool and like all the worst ripoffs of five finger death punch you can imagine. Or it's not a festival that just thinks that like the Linda Linda's and meet me at the altar are the only new rock bands in existence. It walks like a really awesome tightrope here. And again, the chaotic energy is amazing.

I want to get to the fifth line here. This is my favorite line of the poster. This is where we have, Ani DeFranco, Finch, Silverstein. Do you know, have you heard of Finch or Silverstein song before? Is it Shell Silverstein? I've heard Shell Silverstein songs. I think it's like a Canadian kind of metalcore band. Right, yeah.

Like real house of blues, like bamboozle type energy going on there. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Insane Clown Posse, head automata. Apparently that's a big deal for people. Like, they're Daryl Palumbo's post-Glasjaw

band. Like, I mean, you want to talk about the energy of, like, the Mr. Bungle crowd, like Glassjaw fans have definitely their own kind of energy. They're like, of those bands that, you know, to quote the great Beavis and Butthead line about

Jesus Lizards, like they suck, but they rule. Yeah. I just love that band name because I feel like you know what that band is. Yeah, like minus the bear. Kind of a similar sort of, a similar sort of joke going on. And then the line below that one, there's two bands, Parliament Funkadelic, and Godspeed, you black emperor. Godspeed on the sixth line

That seems a little low to me And like well below I didn't even read the line Where we have the interruptors flogging Molly Frank Turner I know it smell crazy in there Pennywise Oh look at that

A little bro him I think Pennywise Like they are awards of the Riot Fest state They're never not going to be on it One thing The one thing that interested in me most of all is that the Black Angels are like on the same line as like origami angel. Like if you go to Austin Psych Fest, which is a very big festival, like Black Angels are a top line band.

Yeah, I feel like that's Texas though. I think in that specific context, they would be big. But like at a Riot Fest, I don't know. Like outside of the Psych Fest world. Yeah. There's like a Milwaukee Syke Fest that's pretty big. I wonder if Black Angels are playing at that one. I mean, they're kings of the Sycfest circuit.

Yeah. I reviewed a Black Angels album for Pitchfork once. See, this is why we need to be at Riot Fest. Yeah, I didn't give it a very good review. They don't seem like an album band to me. Well, do you think of them as like a live band? I just think of them as like kind of you stand around at Syke Fest and see them. Like, I mean, they're not quite the tunesmiths.

like, if you want to see Brian Jones Town, Brian Jonestown massacre, but you're not into like the songs or melodies, so to speak, you can probably fuck around with the Black Angels. If we've got any Syc Fest fans out there, I'm going to do a shout out to the Warlocks. I'm a fan of the Warlocks.

I'm remembering some Syc Fest guys. I, unironically, really like the Warlocks. They've got some albums that I enjoy. They're like one of my favorite bands of that. See, I've got some psych fest DNA in me, for sure.

I mean, I lived in Milwaukee for eight years. So in that town, and I suspect it's probably still the same, big psych fest, big garage rock, those things. And of course, metal is always big in Milwaukee. It's a rust belt town. So, you know, music that you can drink PBR to is always going to be big in Milwaukee. So, yeah, I don't know. Riot Fest, if you're listening, you know, let's set up a tent for, Indicast. Let's broadcast from the grounds. We can do in-depth recaps. I definitely want to check out the

Ani DeFranco Silverstein Insane Clown Posse Trifacta. I think that'll be amazing. We've got to mention Dresden Dolls and Say Anything. The fact that they're that high up, they are like a, they're like the two real genders type band. Like the most annoying theater kids you can possibly imagine in 2003, we're into one of those two bands. And now here we are 20 years later. Do you go deep at all with Ani? I don't think so. I just vaguely recall her existing throughout the 90s,

and I'm sure there's, like, you know, good music there. But for so long, she was, like, kind of an avatar of a certain type of, like, type of per, like, you know, if we want to talk, like, type of guy typecasting, that was definitely a thing in the 90s. I think it would be pretty revelatory if I were to, like, go back and listen to her. her albums because she was just someone you could be aware of without having to hear her stuff. I kind of want to do an Ani DeFranco deep dive here because we have a question in our mailbag. Hopefully we'll get to this letter. I guess we have to now because I'm previewing it about artists that you get into because

of a relationship that you're in, that you're dating someone who really likes an artist. And I dated at least one woman who loved Ani DeFranco. I feel like if you were dating in the 90s. You have at least one X who was really into Ani DeFranco. And that was probably like the most exposure I had to her music. But she's an interesting artist because she's like a true independent artist. She had her own record label. And she was in her own lane, I feel like in the 90s.

Even with all the other female singer songwriters of the era. Like I don't know. I think of her as being separate from like the jewels. and Sarah McLaughlin's. Edgier. Yeah. Kind of, you know,

she never kind of went pop. I, you know, she kind of had, but, you know, she's not making abrasive music. It's like folk music, but I don't know. She never had,

like, a big hit, and she was kind of always doing her own thing. Interesting artist, and, yeah, I'm curious how she's going to fit in at Riot Fest. Like, what is,

is there like a crossover with punk and Ani DeFranco? Oh, absolutely. Is there? Okay. Yeah, I would imagine, like, if you're talking about, like, folk punk, like, the sort of people who are going to be, I don't know, super. I feel like the Gaslight Anthem, okay, like, let's be fair.

Like, you know, Gaslight Anthem doesn't sound like folk punk at all, but I get the feeling that if you were into, like, I don't know, Defiance, Ohio, or this kind of riot fest 2004 stuff, that kind of is the midpoint between, say, against me and, you know, Ani DeFranco. Yeah, I was going to say against me, Ani DeFranco, there's some... Similar energies. There's some shared DNA there. I want to talk to you about where we're at right now with like the album of the year discussion in 2023.

Because we're a couple weeks away from the midpoint of the year. And as we all know, it is now codified. that every publication and website does like a mid-year list. You know, like, because people need to get on, like, the list action more than once. You can't just have it at the end of the year. You need one in the middle of the year. I'm going to be doing one myself. I'm sure we'll talk about it on this show, like our favorite albums of the year.

But that's a separate conversation. That's, like, personal favorites, albums that we love. I'm thinking more, like, the prognostication of the consensus albums. of the year what they're going to be. You can tell already what's going to be in the conversation.

The obvious thing is to go to Metacritic. Look at the best reviewed albums. The best reviewed new album so far this year is the Caroline Polichick album which has a 94

Metacritic score. That's incredible. A hundred is the top. That's like a... Those are like the pop punk out or metal core out. that get reviewed by like three places, but this is like actually like a, you know, a well-known album. Yeah. So there's a, that seems like the obvious choice so far. You have the, uh, boy genius album

right behind it, which has a 90 Metacritic score, which, you know, we talked about this when that album came out, but that's higher than any album that the individual boy geniuses have put out on their own other than a Punisher, the Phoebe Bridgers album. That also has a 90. So that is going to be in the conversation. I think 100 Gecks. That album is like a dark horse maybe here.

That album has grown on me, I know, since it's come out. I was a little unsure about it when it dropped, but I've been going back to it. And it's really fun, especially as we're entering summertime. You know, I wonder, like, if the Siza album is going to be grandfathered into this conversation because it came out at the end of, 2022 and December.

I wonder if people are going to find an excuse to get that in. And there's other albums there on the horizon that I think are going to be in the conversation here and we'll talk about that in a minute. But I want to tell you if I'm, tell me if I'm wrong here. My impression so far of like the big ticket album of the year candidate type records is that it's kind of a week year, especially compared to last year, which I thought was like a pretty strong year. Like already we had like a lot of really meaty acclaimed albums that were fun to talk about.

This year seems a little slow in comparison to me. And, you know, it just got me thinking, you know, we talk all the time on the show about 2013 being this like transitional year. And by the way, at some point we need to do like a favorite albums of 2013 episode because I feel like there's 10 year anniversaries left and right right now for like classic records from that year. But, like, when I look at the critically acclaimed music that's come out so far this year, it really feels like iterations or reiterations of, like, critically acclaimed music from the

last five or six years. You know, like, the Boy Genius record, for instance, feels like a culmination of, like, this wave of young female singer-songwriters that have, like, really become the center of indie music since like the late 2010s. The Caroline Polichick record feels like a culmination of like the sort of indie spin on mainstream pop music, which has also been like a really kind of critical favorite type music in the last five or six years. And I'm just wondering, like, are we on the verge of hearing something that changes this

paradigm? Because it feels like a very established paradigm at this point. And maybe that's why I'm feeling. a little underwhelmed. Like, I'm not, there's not a whole lot of, like, new juice being pumped into the conversation. And I wonder if we're at the end of something right now.

Does any of this makes sense? I mean, do you feel like this year's like a little week? Or is this, because again, it's different from, like, a personal thing. There's lots of records that have come out this year that I like. But in terms of, like, you know, the consensus records, I don't know. It feels like a little bit of a weak class to me.

I think that, you know, I'm thinking about this with through the prism of turnstile being a riot fest headliner in 2023. Like, I was thinking about this the other day where I would assume they would need like another album to get to that point. But, you know, two years after Glowon came up, it is still like leveling up in new and exciting ways. And I think the albums that you've mentioned about like Caroline Polichick and Boy Genius, the album release itself has felt a little little anti-climactic might not be the word, but they've been, you know, like you were saying, in the kind of ambient, like they've been in the ether for so long just in terms of the artist's presence and the sound. And like a lot of these songs were released like long before the album

dropped. And so I think these days when an album comes out, it feels like the end of something rather than the beginning. So I could totally understand how it feels like, I don't know, like the just not exciting to say, oh yeah, Caroline Polichick album of the year, because I feel like we've already just kind of like exhausted that narrative. It feels like when this album dropped, it felt like it was getting an Oscar or an MVP trophy rather than like sparking a new sustained wave of hype. Now, of course, like when the end of the year comes around, I'm sure we'll see plenty of Boy Genius and Caroline Polichick at the top. But I think what you're talking about speaks to like a bigger sort of maways in, I guess, our little world about like prognostication.

I think, A, we need some new sounds coming here. And, you know, I think maybe that when we look at 2013, that was a real transitional year in ways that we couldn't possibly anticipate at the time. So, but when I'm thinking about, like, you know, the albums like that we can. name is like, oh yeah, this might have a shot of being out of the year. It's like all artists that are familiar. It's like maybe Taylor drops a new album or like Big Thief. I know there are new songs you're getting some hype. Maybe they

drop another album. Maybe Rihanna's album comes out. I mean, I think it's hers for the taking. But then again, like how, the fact that we can call it, despite the fact that he hasn't released any new music, really you know, it really stresses how there isn't an exciting middle class of, you know, like, I mean, we haven't mentioned Wednesday. Right. That seems to be like the always, you know, like number four on every year end list.

It's definitely like the big indie rock record that's come out so far. And I love that record. You know, I would probably put it at the top of my list or near the top of my list if I were making a mid-year list right now. they're an interesting band because they are in that middle class in a lot of ways, and yet at the same time, you know, like 27 different publications ran interviews this year.

You know, like it is, so there is like a PR push behind them that's considerable. Which, you know, again, like I'm not criticizing that because I love that record. But,

you know, it is, it does seem harder than ever for an indie record to come out of nowhere. And, and really kind of, enter the conversation. My hope is that Wednesday might herald an era of bands from, like, the South or like places that aren't New York or Philadelphia or Los Angeles that break through and have a distinctive

regional character. Like, that would be a really fun thing to see, a return to, like, what we saw, like, in the 80s and 90s, like with more regional scenes that are distinctive in indie music. I would love to see that. I don't know if that will happen or not. It's too early to tell. But yeah, looking ahead to what albums might enter this conversation, you mentioned Rihanna.

Like, that feels like the big unknown as far as, like, whether that album's going to actually come out. I guess you could also put Sky Ferreira in there as well. Yeah, yeah. If that album's going to drop, like those would be two, I think, interesting candidates. There's a Janelle Monet record that's going to be coming out, and she's been doing a lot of these like break the internet type stunts lately to promote that record where she's basically

very sexy sort of short videos that she's been posting with ample nudity, which is always a good way to get people's attention. That seems like that is like her left turn away from the image of like some of her previous records. It seems like kind of a gamble. We'll see if it works for her. I mean, but that could be a big record. I feel like Janelle Monet is a little washed in the eyes of like, you know, outside of perhaps like Rolling Stone or whatever.

It just, it seems like that she's like very much a like a 2018 type hype artist. Like it'll be, it would try. You also mentioned Killer Mike. He's got a new album. I think those two shout to, by the way, shout to the Purple Ribbon All Star album, Kryptonite awesome song. They were both on it. I feel like them are those two. are a little bit like marooned in the 2010s,

as far as being artists that people are like legit excited about? I don't know. I think they would both be well reviewed. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think you're talking about something different than like critical acclaim. I would be, I mean, unless this Janelle Monet album is like a bomb, I would expect it to do pretty well critically.

And it does seem like she is trying to reboot herself with this album cycle. So that may change as this record comes out. But yeah, I mean, the Killer Mike record, that seems like an automatic 7.8 at least. You know, like just put it in the bank. There's a King Cruel record coming out who that's a guy I do not get at all. But a lot of critical love. He seems a little niche maybe.

So maybe not like an album of the year type artist. but there's also a new PJ Harvey album coming out in July. I would just give that a best new music right now without even... I know that album, again, unless it's awful, that's going to get great reviews. That's her first record in seven years. She's a legacy artist.

I mean, look, PJ Harvey is great, but I mean, she's totally the kind of veteran artist who is like a guaranteed, you know... Top 10. Give or at least like... Number 12 or number 8 in every list. You know, like over under on like an 85 Metacritic score. Like you want to bet the over big time with that.

So those are some of the albums. But again, you know, there's also a Jenny Lewis record coming out next month, which is like a... I think... I'm going to say it's pretty good right now. But like that's the floor. As I listen to it more, I could easily see it get to very good or even great. For all the patio music fans out there, Jason Isbell has a new record dropping next month.

Not going to be big in the pitchfork corner of the world, but in, again, the dad patio corner of the world. That man has a song called Cast Iron Skillet on the new record. It's a great song. That's the album of the summer for the 45-year-old patio dads out there. So again, a lot of good records on the horizon. but yeah, I don't know. This is an interesting moment.

I feel like this could potentially be a year where the albums that are at the top of critics list aren't the ones that are remembered as the most important records that came out this year. The most important records may have already come out and we're just not aware of them yet. It's going to take time for us to realize how important they are. Or maybe not, who knows,

but I don't know. I just have a feeling that we're at the end of something and something else is about to begin. I like that at Indycast at the end of history. Yeah, exactly. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. So let's talk about one of the great alt-rock bands of all time, The Cure.

I wrote about this band this week. I did one of my big list columns, wrote about my 40 favorite Cure songs that just went up as we started recording. So I know you haven't seen it yet, Ian. But I wanted to talk to you about The Cure because, well, we're talking about them because they started a huge North American tour this month. It's their first tour in seven years. Are you seeing them this weekend? I am absolutely going to see The Cure. We have bypass Ticket Masters, no transfer system.

I figured out a way. I won't share it with you. Just know, my name's going to be Carlos this Saturday. Yeah, I'm super stoked for it. Carlos D? Not Carlos D, unfortunately. Carlos A. Yeah, I'm super stoked for it.

There's no opener. So that means I'm probably going to get like three hours of cure. I wouldn't mind being an opener because they took the Twilight. Like the Twilight Sad was their kind of like kept opening band for a while. And I like Twilight Sad. But yeah, I'm not looking to any set lists. I am going in there fresh. Really excited for this.

Like more so that like. you know obviously all the swifties are getting like their their licks in right now like one of my I know people who like flew from California to Philadelphia to see it my niece went but for me I am in swifty mode except for Robert Smith yeah it's gonna be great I'm gonna see them next month here in Minneapolis I'm very excited well I guess they're playing St. Paul technically in Twin Cities I'll be seeing them um I'm excited I have looked at setless and it's it is like a three hour show, I think it's like 29 songs. It looks like they're playing some new songs from this album that they've been working on for

years. That is apparently about the moon landing, or there's like some sort of moon landing, like, theme to it. At least I read this in an article from like a few years ago. I don't know, maybe that's changed since the late 2010s when an article was published. But a lot of hits, there were a band with a lot of hits. I mean, they really don't need an opening act because it's like a three-hour show, so it's going to be amazing. But, yeah, I mean, we should just talk about the legacy of this band for a minute because it's really easy to draw a line from the cure to like so many different foundational music genres that we talk about on the show.

I mean, obviously, you got post-punk, you have got got got got got gothawgay, you have dream pop. You have alternative rock just in general. But what's fascinating to me about The Cure is that their influence and reach is actually much wider than that. And really, I think what The Cure is is like a foundational part of just like youth music in general of like the last 40 years. Because like beyond the genres that we just mentioned, you know, like in the 90s, like new metal bands were covering Cure songs. In the aughts, like emo bands and pop punk bands were covering cure songs. In the 2010s, emo rap stars were sampling cure songs. You know, there's just like this thing about the cure where on one hand,

they have an incredibly specific aesthetic where we all know what they sound like, we all know what they look like, we all know what the vibe is of this band. And yet within that very kind of specific sensibility, there's all these sort of like broad reaching implications of their music where like different constituencies can hear something that appeals to them that might not be apparent to somebody else but they take something that they feel belongs to them and they turn it into a different kind of music

and I wrote about this in my column but I think that the secret sauce with the cure is that they have the ability to be hard and soft at the same time Like there's something, you know, obviously dark and mysterious and gloomy about their image and music, but there's also something very poppy and catchy and jangly at the same time. And like, both things are true. You know, it's really up to the listener to decide on what aspect of this band's music speaks to them and that they choose to focus on.

It's incredibly unique, you know, because there aren't many other. bands that I could name that are as immediately distinctive as them and yet have an influence on such a wide range of artists. So to me, like, that is what their legacy is. Yeah, it's, there's pretty much no offshoot of like alternative rock or that that isn't touched by the cure. You know, you could say something's like cure-esque and like mean it, but it's sort of like saying Beatles-esque, where it can be true and also like meaningless at the same time because like which part of the cure. And they're just a fascinating band to enter into. I almost feel bad for people who now have the entire discography at their fingertips

because, you know, I went through like my cure phase, like a real deal cure phase. I had to cobble it together through like UCD stores. So like one day you might find like staring at the sea, the early singles cop and then you you also might find wish that was in a lot of UCD or wild mood swings. So they would have these incredibly vast stylistic changes and you would have to kind of all piece it together and discover which one you like the most, which is I think more fun than going straight chronologically. It's funny you say that like wild stylistic changes because I know what you mean,

but at the same time, if you take a step back, they're relatively small. Like even if you go from like the post-punk early 80s to like that poppy mid-80s period where you know they go from doing a hanging garden to like the caterpillar, you know, or the love cats, you know, like that where he, where Smith was very deliberately pivoting from that gothy image that they had. In a lot of ways, it's not that different, but I know what you mean. Like it feels different. And I don't know It's not like the Ramones who just made the same album over and over again But like I don't know It's not like they ever did something dramatically different

Like on the whole I don't know I just feel like there's such a combination of like a very fixed sensibility That within the world feels broader than it should be in a weird way Yeah I think that the sensibility is important. Like, I mean, it has a very distinct central personality. So everything they do, whether it's like the eight-minute songs on disintegration or like Boys Don't Cry, which is a very short and spiky, like almost zero reverb song, it's like a starter kit for like teenagers to announce to the world, yo, I'm sad, but like how do I want to be sad? Do I want to just

be kind of like pastel kind of tweed sad? Do I want to be goth sad? I definitely want to be sad, but like which kind do I get the pull from or like the deep, dark disintegration style sad. And I think that's like what has allowed them to endure throughout the years. You know, to, you know, like you mentioned, emo, new metal, you know, all the best genres. We have to mention the 2004, the final MTV icon show that they did. They had Blink 182 covering a letter to Elise, one of their best songs. they also had AFI doing just like heaven, which I did see was your number one song on the list.

And Def Tones did only tonight we could sleep. Def Tones' excellent taste. Razorlight was there for some reason. So I think that sums up where they were at in 2004 when they also made a Ross Robinson produced album. And now you look 20 years later, and I would say like their gothy kind of minimal post-punk sound is the one that has the most, you know, tangible,

influence, but that could change in 10 years, you know? So, um, they're just, like, their reputation is constantly morphing. Yeah. There's a lot of tools in, in the toolbox with the cure. And I think, you know, part of the reason why they've endured as well, and you alluded to this is that there's a cure costume that you can put on if you are young and you're looking for an identity, you know, and that is the most. metal aspect, I think, of the cure. In metal, like, merch is really important. You know, like, the band t-shirt is central to, like, metal culture.

And in The Cure, there's a similar kind of thing, like, where, and I don't know if this still exists or not, but, like, when I was in school, there was the Cure kids. You know, that was part of the cast system of, like, junior high and middle school. You had the kids that dressed like the Cure. and it was similar to like the metal kid kind of thing. And I think that morphed as the 90s went on until like the new metal kid. Like the new metal kid and the cure kid, like they dress pretty similarly. You know, like you've got like the baggy shirt.

You've got like the kind of baggy pants. There might be some sort of makeup thing involved. You know, you got the hair that's kind of wild, maybe hanging in your face. You know, I think that. that I mean that's a big part of their aesthetic the visual part of what the cure is which is fascinating

when you dig into the cure's career and you realize that they pivoted to that fairly deep into their catalog it wasn't like Robert Smith was looking like Robert Smith from the beginning that begins around the time of pornography

and like really becomes central to their image around the time of the head on the door. The videos from that album is like when that look becomes codified to this band. But there's this whole other period where they're just

like a British post-punk band. And they were accused early on of not having an image. You know, people thought that maybe they were even like a little generic in a way, which is such a wild thing to think about the cure at this point. Yeah, look back on their old Rolling Stone

reviews from like the early day they are wild. Oh my God. Especially the one for pornography. Yeah, I would just like watch videos of them from like 17 seconds and faith, like 80, 81.

And it's like, they don't look, first of all, they're a three piece at that point. But they don't look like the cure. You know, they look like honestly, like a lot of bands

that you see now coming out of England. You know, which as you said, I mean, like that era has been really influential. of late. I mean, and I feel like the cure doesn't always get credit for that. I think the Joy Division often is name-checked.

Yeah. And that, but, like, I remember, you know, this is going back some years, of course, but, like, when Interpol first came out, turn on the bright lights, Joy Division was always the reference point with Interpol. But you listen to that record now, and it's way more cure-like. Untitled is definitely disintegration, like stadium opening. And also, there was, like, way more, like, sexiness to Interpol, which is, I think, allow them to endure the way they have, even though, like, Joy Division is like, I see a lot more Joy Division shirts amongst the youth than, uh, than, uh, Cure shirts. But I think they've come to be a way to announce like, hey, I'm young, I'm sad. Look at me. All right, well, let's get into our categories here to talk about the Cure. Favorite album. Now, I feel like there are two albums that are in the running for this. I mean, maybe three.

Three, if you are a proponent of the early period, like pornography, I feel like would come up if you love that era of the cure. But I think for most people, it comes down to the two albums at the end of the 80s, Dys Integration and Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Where do you land on that? So, disintegration, like, is one of my, like, probably my favorite album of all time, but definitely my favorite of the 80s. I don't listen to it as often as I do Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me.

I think of it as like, would you rather watch the Godfather or the Sopranos? And of course, you know, disintegrations, the more cinematic one. Whereas with Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, It's more episodic. And there are some weak songs, you know, towards the end. But I love them both. But as far as the one that is really life change. I would say that's disintegration. I just love the fact that when you, if you get the CD, it says on the back of the credits,

turn it up loud. It says that explicitly. And you really have to to just get all the depths of it. But I think Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me is like more of the Cure starter kit one. Like this is how you learn to be a Cure fan in their many modes. So you can't go wrong with either one of those. But if I had to like put a flag in the ground and say like, hey, this is the one I, like that has moved me the most and has been most important,

then absolutely that's disintegration. But Kiss Me is more like a 1B than a strict number two. Yeah, I'm going to go the other way, and I have a similar thing. I would put Disintegration 1B for me. I mean, that's a great record, unquestionably, one of the great albums of the 80s. I love that it's a total CD album.

I think it's one of the best CD albums of all time. Not it now. Because Robert Smith, he conceived it as like a 72-minute piece of music. Like he thought about the CD format when he made that record. So like if you're out there buying disintegration on vinyl, I'm sorry. You got to go on eBay. You got to get a used copy of disintegration on CD. Get like a cheap CD boombox and play it in your room with the lights out.

That's the right way to listen to disintegration. Probably put on some headphones so you can just turn it up all the way and really feel. that record takeover your life. But yeah, I'm going to go with Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Number One. And the case I would make is actually rooted in a lot of the criticisms of this record. You know, this record gets criticized for, you know, being a little long. You know, it's a double record. It's a little scattered.

It's a little inconsistent. But I don't know. To me, it belongs in the great tradition of like double albums in rock history. And I think it is in a way the midpoint between like the great double albums of the 70s you know Exile and Main Street Goodbye Yellow Brick Road

The Wall Which by the way Kiss Me Kiss Me was recorded at the same studio that the wall was made at And also in the south of France Just like Exile and Main Street So it has that kind of classic rock Pedigree to it But to me it points to

The great double albums of the 90s Like I listen to Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me me, kiss me, and I think of melancholy in the infinite sadness. I think about the fragile, you know. I guess I think about White Pony. I know it's 2000, but because deaf tones covered what if tonight we could sleep.

So it just feels like it's in the middle of the classic rock part of the double album spectrum and like the alt rock part of the spectrum. So that's why I lean toward that, but obviously you can't go wrong with either record.

What is an overrated cure record. Is there an overrated cure record? I absolutely think there is.

And as much as I joke about how much Rolling Stone slagged pornography in its time, I do think that

album has, it was so underrated for so long that it's kind of overrated now. Like, I understand the importance

of it because it is the cure's most demanding album. It is the one that, like, it's kind of a contrarian choice

because it is so far removed from like where they go immediately after. But, you know, 100 years, one of their best opening songs. That's on fucking rules. But afterwards, it gets kind of, it feels like a bit of a drag.

And I know that's the point, but it still doesn't quite feel as immersive as it's played out to be, you know, even though that era of the cure, like the kind of spooky post-punk of like faith and 17 seconds, I think that's like their most contemporarily influential stuff. It's not the, I feel like with that whole era, staring at the sea kind of does the job. You know, there's interesting deep cuts on it. But yeah, I'd say like pornography. Like, I like it.

It wouldn't be at the bottom of my like Cure albums ranking list. But I don't see it as the masterpiece it's made out to be. But I also feel like I were growing up in the 80s. That would be much different. Yeah, you know, I don't, I wouldn't call it. overrated, really? I mean, I think the thing with pornography is the mythology

of that record, you know, because that's the album where, you know, they were literally recording in toilets that were filthy in order to get like a grimy, booming sound that you hear on that album. And they were also just doing loads of cocaine. I was reading, when I was doing my piece, I was reading the book Never Enough by Jeff Apter,

which is a pretty good biography of the band. and it talks about how they had a cocaine budget for that album that was 1,600 pounds. Is that a lot? That's 1600 pounds of cocaine, but 1600 pounds of cocaine, but 1,600 pounds money to pay for cocaine. It seems like a lot. Yeah. The fact that you're budgeting for cocaine, I think, speaks to the decadence of that record. Like, to me.

I would argue that, like, having a budget seems, like, anti-decant. Like, the whole point about, like, cocaine is, like, that it's, like, unlimited. but, you know, I guess that's why the cure has made it as long as they were. Well, I mean, I don't know. That is, that seems like a distinction that doesn't really wash for me. I mean, to me, like, that's the decadent cure album. And when I listen to it, like, I don't really hear it as a depressing album. I hear it as, like, their drug album or, like, their party album in a weird kind of way.

Like, I was, when I was working on this story and having some drinks on a recent Friday night, I was listening to pornography. And people were like, are you okay? And I was like, yeah, I'm listening to this very druggie album. It's pretty fun. The only sense I would say that records may be overrated is that out of that trilogy of goth records from the early 80s, like my favorite is faith. I think faith gets a little overshadowed by pornography because it doesn't have the same

sort of maximalist decadence that pornography has. But I don't know. Faith, it's such a chilly and austere record. It's basically, in my mind, Robert Smith trying to make his version of Closer, like the Last Joy Division record. It has that kind of vibe to it. And I got to shout out the song Primary, which is one of my favorite Cure songs. Two bass parts on that song.

Oh, yeah. Robert Smith and Simon Gallup, both playing bass, rhythm and lead bass. Pretty unique for a song. and the cure is like one of the great baseline bands of all time like as far as alt rock goes it's the cure in new order like they have to battle it out for like who has the best baselines so yeah I would really go to bat for faith out of that trilogy of like their dark early period

what are underrated cure albums well I think that this one is so poorly rated that like saying I even like it means it's like underrated. I got to go with the top. This is one of the great UCD finds of that time because it's right between a head on the

door which they put them in a space where they could make these big stadium status type records and their early dark phase. This to me is like the drug album but like whereas there's like a romance to the kind of drug use on pornography. This is like

more Robert Smith just gone off his fucking gore. like feel good hit of the summer drug regimen there's like some actual great songs on here like Shake Talk Shake is kind of their version of poursome sugar on me

dressing up is a dressing up great song it really comes alive on the Paris live album there's also like the wailing wall and the unknown not the unknown soldier sorry that's the doors

but it's kind of similar where it's got like the military field snare, the military field snare. Just like these bizarre experiments. And of course we got to give a shout out to banana fish bones, which I think that you were like on the verge of putting on the list. One of the best, like this is the most filler of filler songs. Just a bonkers song. Easily the ugliest album cover in the Cures history, I would say.

More so than the self-titled? The self-titled one, oh, that's pretty ugly. too, actually. I mean, the three imaginary boys cover is just, like, stupid, but, like, the top cover's pretty ugly. In terms of underrated, I'm going to say Wish, even though I know that album is pretty acclaimed and people look at it as it being the end of, like, their golden era. I feel like Wish is, it gets a lot of backhanded compliments when people talk about it.

It's basically looked at as just a retread of disintegration. Which in a sense is kind of true, but the thing with Wish is that if I were going to introduce someone to the Cure, I think I would play them Wish first, because I think it's the record that you really don't need to know anything about the cure to appreciate it. You don't need to know about their history or their mythology or their aesthetic or anything. It just sounds like a slightly weird U2 album from the 90s. It's a very kind of stadium sounding record, very muscular, but there's so many hits on that album.

In a way, as much as I love disintegration, like, I listen to Wish More. I mean, you have Open, you have High, you have, obviously, Friday I'm in Love, you have Doing the Unstuck, you have a letter to Elise, one of the greatest cure songs of all time. I really feel like that record is just below the top two. Like the gap between Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me and Disintegration and Wish, I really think is like a lot narrower than people give it credit for. So that, in that sense, I think that record's a little underrated. Oh, I agree. I think that it is a bit dated the production.

Like, it's very 1992. But the addition to the songs that you mentioned, I mean, from the edge of the deep green sea is sort of like the, to me it's like the midpoint between Kiss Me and Disniqued. integration and that it's got, you know, Friday I'm in love, which, you know, I should hate because it's like a very, it's a very out of character, not out of character, but it's like a song that you could like and not have to explore any other songs from The Cure, but great song. And I think it fits very well within the Cure mythology, open, incredible song, like, hi, one of their best pop songs, you know, cut, and I mean, oh yeah, the last song, yeah, end is one of the great album closers and cure history.

And if they ended things right there, I mean, I don't know what, like how the next, you know, 20 years would go. But yeah, I think it is on the level, not, it doesn't have the same sort of mythos as, you know, their 80s work. But, I mean, for it is still just a great album. It's better every time I hear it. Also, I know you mentioned like emo bands covering the Cure, the hotel year did a version of of doing the unstuck back in like 2014 or whatever. I also got like I want to give a little shout to bloodflowers. That album was like huge for me in college because I was like sort of living like Robert

Smith during pornography, not with the cocaine, you know, like let's just be very clear about that. I could not afford six. I didn't have 16,000 pounds. But it's a very, it's like a, it's, it's very much a comfort food cure album that they've been trying to make for like the past. 20 years and haven't pulled off. So I have, I have like some very, very, you know, like a completely subjective love for that

record, even though I know it's like fan service. I almost put it in the underrated category, but we have this other last category, low-key favorite. And I put bloodflowers in that one. And I agree. I mean, it's a record where if you're expecting the cure to like push their sound forward, you're going to be disappointed. but if you just want Robert Smith to pay homage to himself,

which is what he's doing essentially on that album, it's great. And I feel like so many people have ripped off the cure. Like, why can't Robert Smith rip off the cure? He does it better than anyone, and that record really proves it. So it's a very pleasurable record. It's easily my favorite thing that they've done post-wish. Why can't I be you? Why can't I be me, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. Did you have anything else? to add for the low-key favorite category? Absolutely. So you're talking about like the post-wish cure, which has been like really, it's been pretty dire. But the opening...

I wouldn't say dire. I don't think they've made like a bad record. It's just that like the thing with Wish is that I think they basically accomplished all that there was left to accomplish creatively. And now it's just about reiterating. Even Wish, Wish was kind of reiterating what disintegration did.

You know, there's just not, it's good on its own, but it's just not going to blow your mind. I mean, there's already so many other cure albums from earlier in their career. I would say the albums don't feel essential or they feel a little unnecessary to me, but they're not bad. Yeah, okay. Dyer was a bit of an overstatement. I guess I'm just more disappointed that, like, the self-titled album, the one they did,

at kind of the peak of their all. alt rock, emo, new metal, acclaim. Did it, like, had one good song. The first one lost. Oh, what a great fucking song that is. But I was just like, then they started making songs about, like, terrorism and whatever. I similarly want the first song from Wild Mood Swings, which I think everyone will acknowledge is easily the worst cure album.

That song's really fucking good. And also, I got to give a shout to Mixed Up, maybe the, I don't know if it's the best indie remix album of all time. But I remember someone in college and a woman who was like one year older than than he said it was like the best makeout album she ever heard. And that stuff sticks with you when you hear it in college. So those and also the, uh, joined the dots B-side collection, which I bought for like 70 bucks in 2004. Harold and Joe, um, this Twilight Garden. I mean, there's, there's some keepers in there. And also the song they did for Judge Dread the movie. Oh, Bird from the Crow soundtrack.

Oh, I'm actually mad that you didn't put that song on the list now that I think about it. Yeah, someone else mentioned that to me. That's a really good song. You know, I like, I feel like you could find this on YouTube, like the Cure and Orange, like that live film that was filmed, I think right before Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, it would have been like when they were touring behind the head on the door and staring at the beach. and it's like Robert Smith with like really short hair It's kind of like an interesting look That's a cool movie

And show from like the early 90s That like live live live I think is really good Because I mean the Cures a great live band too I mean that's another thing about them Is that even as they faded creatively They do remain a band that you want to see Because like they deliver live So I'm definitely excited to see them next month

And you will have to report next week about your cure experience. Excited to hear about that. Let's get to our mailbag segment and thank you all for writing in. It's always great to hear from our listeners. You can hit us up at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com.

Ian, do you want to read this letter? Oh, I absolutely do. This is one of my favorites. So first off, love the pod. Makes my Friday morning cup of coffee the best cup of coffee in my week. I'm currently online dating and I recently met someone who is really into the Hold Steady.

I mean, we've been waiting for this mail bag all our lives. Despite being a life or indie listener, the Hold Steady is a huge blind spot for me. For whatever reason, I never dug into the discography and now I'm catching up on them and really enjoyed a deep dive into their catalog. My question, have you ever been the recipient of a band from a relationship? Either turned onto a band you did not know or studied up on a band that you hadn't paid much attention to? And if so, did the success of the relationship affect your relationship? relationship with the band. This is from Melanie in Sacramento.

Wow. This is a great letter. Thank you, Melanie, for writing in. I mean, I already mentioned Ani DeFranco as being someone that I was exposed to because of at least one woman I dated in the 90s. So that's an example. I would say that the most successful instance of me being turned out to a band because of someone I was dating is going to surprise people, because I feel like this band is such a middle-aged guy band, or at least that's how they're perceived. But in my experience, I dated two women, two different women, in the late 90s, early 2000s when I was in my early 20s,

who were really into Steely Dan. And I credit them with turning me into a Steely Dan fan. Actually, there was one, the second woman I dated, because I was also online dating at the time. she said that she was looking for a Donald Fagan type. And I don't know if I am a Donald Fagin. Well, you know, if you listen, you know, I don't know, funny, cynical, into jazz. I don't know.

I don't know if I'm a Donald Fagan type, but the fact that she was looking for a Donald Fagan type made her instantly attractive to me. So that was something, you know, just dating her. I was already starting to be a silly Dan fan because of like the first woman. I dated who was a Steely Dan fan, but like dating the second Steely Dan fan girlfriend really got me into the band. So yeah, Steely Dan for me, I think is the most successful instance. And I broke up with these people and I still love Steely Dan. So I appreciate that exposure from those two ladies.

Yeah. If Craig Finn's listening to this podcast and I hope he does, you know, we talk about his band a lot, I feel like he's going to write a song about Melanie. This is like the follow-up that you can make him like you or whatever, like the one who gets in to hold steady to, you know, to kind of make herself more attractive in the dating game. But, you know, for me, like, there were definitely times where I was, you know, a little more lenient on certain genres.

You know, I'm thinking of like when I lived in Virginia and Georgia, I'm like, yeah, I listen to a Brooks and Dunn album. But I think by and large, like I'm kind of, past the point where music holds as much impact in terms of like the way I perceive compatibility because I think we all go through like the high fidelity phase where it feels like the single most important thing that determines whether or not you're going to have a good relationship. And but nowadays like I think that instead of being introduced to new bands, I hear the same bands to a different lens.

You know, for example, my wife, you know, she, in the 2000s, like, she listened to the same indie stuff as I did, but was more through, like, the evangelical church. So, like, obviously bands with religious undertones like Sufyan and Arcade Fire could be seen differently, like how important they were to people who had faith. And also, like the emo stuff, like Pedro the Lion or Me Without You, it's been kind of a cheat. code for me to understand like modern emo when you get a sense of like what hill song is and what like Cornerstone Festival are in terms of seeing like the devotion of the people who are fans of this music but also the sound of it. So that's been super helpful as well. But I also think that more important, the more important component of like a relationship now is not that like introduction to new music, but like having a sort of non-music writer, Twitter,

baseline to view things through. You know, I think that when people are like going off about like Taylor Swift or boy genius, it helps to have someone there who can say, yeah, it's fine. I don't get it. And it's like, oh, this is a very normal person opinion. But it seems like almost avant-garde if like you take a step back from the maelstrom of music Twitter. Yeah, I have to say, never date someone because they have good music taste.

I'm going to say this as, you know, a wise elder here to our younger listeners. It is maybe the least important thing when you're looking for a mate. Because, yeah, I went through my period where I was like, oh, this person has cool taste. So I want to date them. And then you find out, yeah, they have great music taste, but they're also a lunatic and a bad person. And maybe the lunatic and bad person part is more important than the good music taste part. So this is an episode of dating cast here. I'm just going to drop a brief dating cast episode.

Music taste does not matter when you're looking for a mate. We're now reached a part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so the name of the band is Mandy, Indiana, and you'll be shocked to know that this actually isn't an emo act. Their new album, I've seen Away, is out this today, and they've been on my radar since 2021.

You know, they're from Manchester and were described as like a UK post-punk band, which usually just I completely do not give a shit about. But the song I heard like A, it actually banged and like B, it did so in a way that reminded me of early these new Puritans. Definitely an Indycast Hall of Fame band if we do another episode, both, you know, for Field of Reeds and Hidden. this new one just does that and it does it on an album length. It reminds me a little bit of a companion piece to the model actress album that we talked about earlier this year.

Possibly early liars influence coming into the realm of indie music, which I appreciate because as much as everyone's talking about like the return of indie slews or whatever, that's a very narrow definition. And I like to think of, you know, like early liars is that kind of like bad drugs, bad vibes. sort of indie sleaze as opposed to, you know, going to an LCD sound system show. Also, the singer is a woman who sings mostly in French, so that puts an interesting dynamic to it. This is not music where I need to pay attention to the lyrics.

So very rare, you know, kind of hyped indie rock album that sounds good at the gym without being hardcore. Really threads that needle for me. So I'm going to sneak two albums into my recommendation corner this week. The first one came out earlier this month. It's called an in-belt fault, a very awkwardly named title, but it's very good. It's by a British singer-songwriter named Westerman. He may have heard about.

He's been sort of floating around for the past several years, and he's really perfected this sort of like soft rock sound. Like the way I've described this album is if Sting made a bunny bear record, which I know for a segment of our listeners will be the last thing they want to hear. But if you're on that wavelength, this record is really great, I think, and it's my favorite thing that Westerman has done. So I wanted to bring that up on the show.

The other album I want to recommend this week is out today. It's called Tracy Denham, and it's by a London band called Bar Italia. And this is a band that can be broadly classified as post-punk. But I need to say that we've talked about a lot of these British bands in the last few years that have come out that are post-punk, and they all tend to be like, kind of gutteral, a lot of talk singing, a lot of abrasive guitars, kind of like consciously

difficult music. But there is like another side of post-punk that frankly comes from bands like The Cure, which is sleaker and sexier with like really cool bass lines and it has more of like a mysterious vibe to it. And this band falls under that. I think the Cure is a reference point for this group. I would say like early Otts radiohead. There's some elements of there that aren't rock kind of phase for the band. There's a great band from Baltimore called Lower Dens. I don't know if people remember Lower Dens, but I was

listening to this record by Baratalia, and it made me think about Lower Dens as well. So, again, if you're looking for, like, not the sort of guttural, like, barking type of postpunk, but the more sort of, like, again,

like, enigmatic really cool bass tones type postpun. this is going to be a record for you. I really like it a lot. I've been listening to it all week. So definitely check it out. Shout to the guy Carlos who gave me the cure tickets. He's a big Lower Dense fan too. Okay, Lower Dens. Really good band. Check out Lower Dens if you haven't. Really good band. We have reached the end of this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for

more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.