Indiecast - A Charl XCX vs. Green Day Feud At Coachella, Plus: New Music From Lana Del Rey

Episode Date: April 18, 2025

Steven and Ian begin this week's episode with a correction about Ian's claim about a "last" Bon Iver concert (0:00), and a conversation about the current state of the Indiecast mailbag. There's also a quick Sportscast on the NBA playoffs, and whether the NBA is the most indie-rock league (7:15). In the Fantasy Album Draft update, we look at recent reviews for Bon Iver and Tunde Adebimpe (14:58) and check out the new single from Lana Del Rey (21:43). Then the guys discuss some of the week's news, including Katy Perry's (unexciting) journey to space (26:37) and the recent sorta scandal about Charli XCX shading Green Day over Coachella headliner status (31:20).In the mailbag, the guys discuss the influence of video games and School Of Rock programs on indie rock (44:04), and yay or nay The Mars Volta (53:11). Finally, in Recommendation Corner, Ian recommends the latest from Kitchen and Steven stumps for Bill Fox (58:11).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 235 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about the Charlie XX versus Green Day beef, Katie Perry in space, and we answer emails from you, the Indycast listener. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host.

He swears he's seeing the last Bonnie Ver show next week. Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? Look, in my defense at BoniVare's closing out headlining set at Pitchfork Festival 2021, I was told by a guy who was told by a guy who was a non-founding member of the band Whitney that this was going to be BoniVare's last show. And I mean, whatever happened to print the legend, I'm not going to like do research to contradict that.

That's just a great ending to the BoniVare story. And not to fact check you on the air, but that Bunny Bear performance was in 2023 at at pitchfork, not 2021. Oh, geez. Yeah, see, so you're just not doing that well here, Ian. So we got an email this week from a listener who pointed out that Ian said that when Bunny Bear played pitchfork in 2023, that there were rumors that would be the last Bunny Bear show. But sure enough, Bunny Bear played a bunch of shows after that.

So it was not the last Bunny Bear show as this non-who is it from Whitney? A non-founding member. I never found out who it was. It might just be the guy who played the sense on the last one. Yeah, 2021. 2021 was the St. Vincent plays on 9-11 festival. I'm sorry. Okay, so someone in the orbit of Whitney

told you that this might be the last Bonnyver show or there were intimations that it could be. Maybe they meant like this is like the last Bonnever tour. Maybe we should say that. Or was he saying that Pitchfork was going to be the last show? I had heard rumors that BoniVair was going to hang it up as a live act after this because, you know, the ceremony of it all. Right. It would have been good.

But I think he played like another show like next, like the following week. So it was like a short-lived. Look, it's the fog of war on this podcast. You know, we're not, we're just getting on the mic. We're talking. Sometimes we may say something wrong. we may often pronounce things wrong. Certainly I pronounce things wrong all the time.

We're off the cuff here. And I like to think that that's normally a positive on this show because it is like we're in the DMs. We're like we're reading our DMs aloud. Or we're reading 85% of the DMs. The 15% of the really good stuff doesn't get rid on the show. But, you know, it's the spirit of that. But sometimes you get things wrong.

I get things wrong too. I have to say that this email writer, who was very cranky, by the way, Can I just say the mailbag has been a little off lately. I feel like we're getting a lot of grumpy people. And I take some responsibility for this because we read that Stinky Dave email. What was that like a month ago now? It's been a while.

And like for anyone who's not familiar with Stinky Dave Lord, that was how Stinky Dave signed off. That is not us applying a nickname to an email. Yeah, exactly. We're not insulting anyone. Stinky Dave is. how Stinky Dave referred to himself. Stinky Dave, though, was very catty, I think I can say fairly, in his email to us.

And I chose it to read, because it's nice to have some catty emails every now and then. And I feel like there were a bunch of catty emails after that that we've gotten from people. People felt emboldened. Maybe they felt like, if I emulate Stinky Dave, then I can get my email read on the show.

And it just wasn't the right vibe. I think we're going to correct that later on because we've got emails with a more positive vibe. But anyway, this email pretty catty. But, you know, rightfully pointed out, Bunny Bear didn't play the last show at Pitchfork Fest. Played several shows after that. This email writer also took offense because they thought that we were too hard on Arcade Fire. talking about how Arcade Fire actually did really well on the last tour cycle for Wii, which I don't think is totally accurate.

No, not at all. No, I actually did some research into that. So we're learning here at Indycast. So I just looked up on Reddit because I would hear stories, and I got this conflated with the Everything Now tour, where Arcade Fire tried to play venues that were like just seriously beyond their reach at that point, even if they did have a number one album, which, you know, in 2017, I think, like, brand new had a number one album as well. But it was, like, the softest week for number ones in, like, the past 15 years.

You could do, I think, I don't think the, I don't think it was, like, fully engrossed in the streaming numbers. But either way, I looked it up, like, and this took five seconds. And you would see someone say, yeah, man, they, like, covered up the entire 200 section at the key of forum. It was not really well attended. So, yeah, I mean, and, like, yes, Arcade Fire is a successful band. Mind you, we came out before the allegations and a lot of the shows that happened in late 2022,

I think happened, like, slightly afterwards. So I think there were just bad vibes around it in general. Yeah, yeah, and I think the thrust of our conversation was wondering where they're at, right now with their audience because of that pitchfork story that was published in 2022, I believe, with allegations, multiple allegations against Wynn Butler. And if you aren't familiar with that story, I recommend Googling it, reading it. It's a very uncomfortable read, but it's important context here.

We were just wondering, like, where are they at? It's hard to know who's going to come out for them. We've had other bands come back from allegations recently. Obviously, brand new is an ongoing story. Just wondering where the audience is at with Arcade Fire. People are going to come out for this band? Honestly, don't know. Curious to see it, but it's an evolving story.

This person sent the email from a burner account, so it might have been Win Butler, who sent this. Who knows? Stinky Win. Stinky Win. Stinky Win could have sent that. But anyway, we regret the error on the Bunny Bear thing. It's kind of a funny error, though.

And I love that it came from a touring member of Whitney. That it came from that person. Maybe not the most reliable. I assume that person doesn't work for Polestar or something. So maybe they didn't know, but it's okay. We report you decide. That's our policy here on Indycast. I want to do a quick sportscast here because the NBA playoffs start this weekend.

And we haven't talked NBA at all. Sportscast has not been around since the end of the NFL season. And I know people, the NFL slash college football season. And I know some people are happy about that. There's some vocal sports cast haters out there. But I feel like the silent majority of the people who listen to the show appreciate a good sports cast. Totally. And I was actually thinking about this with the NBA and trying to figure out.

out if they're the most indie rock friendly league because I do feel like when you talk to musicians who are into sports, the NBA is the sport that they most often want to talk about. And I know you've had this experience and I've had this experience as well. I mean, there's something about the NFL where so many people watch the NFL that you can't really make the NFL your identity. You know, like I watch football. That's my identity. It's like saying I like cheeseburgers or, you know, I like pizza or something. It's a pretty ubiquitous thing. But I think NBA is a little more niche and like indie rockers who are into it.

Sometimes someone will write a story just centered around them being an NBA fan or like being a fantasy basketball fan or something. So I feel like it's the most indie rock friendly league, which makes me feel like we should do a sports cast on it and maybe talk about the NBA playoffs as they unfold. Am I right in thinking that? Absolutely, because I did a bunch of interviews of late where it feels like the band really, really, really wants to talk about basketball as opposed to the album. That happened when I interviewed model actress in 2023. Like, they're Sixers fans that happened when I talked to Manichin pussy.

That happened when I talked to, you know, like I think MJ Lenderman. There's just like a lot of people. Oh, Hotline TNT, major basketball fans as well. And I think that's, like, due to the NBA being the most sport that is welcome to what I would call, not what I would call is what Free Darko shout to them called liberated fandom, because there's so many individual storylines that occur in basketball. I know this sounds insane, given that, like, of all major sports, the NBA has the most, I think what you would describe as physical freaks.

there is this like relatability because you see them. They're just like wearing shirts and a tag top. They're not wearing helmets. They're not playing with like 10 or 12 other people. They're more emotional on the court. They're more emotional off the court. And so even like you can enjoy the actual sport, but there are so many side quests.

Like for example, my favorite story of late is how the Grizzlies and the Nuggets fired their head, like the most successful head coaches in their entire franchise. history like five days before the playoffs. Yeah, which is nuts. Yeah, like everything. No other league would do that. No. It would never happen anywhere else.

Except for maybe like, except maybe like Premier League. Like I never understand what's happening there. Like there's just like this small like subset of my, the people I follow for like music opinions who will just throw their hands up in the air about like whatever man you is doing it. I don't get it. But yeah, it's just, I think that and you have like the injuries and like teams that are actively tanking versus, you know, the trades that are happening.

I just think there are so many more interesting storylines because it is a sport that caters to superstars, to individuals. The NFL as a rule is a team sport. It's owner-based. It's protect the shield. The NBA is just, there always feels like there's more possible there. So I think that lends itself well to people who also follow indie rock beef. Yeah, my theory is somewhat connected to that.

And this is pertaining to musicians, I guess. But I feel like, you know, if you're on the road, you know, you're in the van several hours a day. You're driving around the country. And you can only listen to music so much. So you're consuming a lot of podcasts. And the NBA is the most podcastable sport in terms of you can just listen to podcasts and not even watch the games with the NBA. And I think a lot of people actually do that during the regular season. I know I'm like that.

although less so this season than in previous seasons. Because the weird thing with the NBA is that it's the most podcastable sport, but I also feel like it has some of the most annoying discourse. And I guess that happens more at the top at the cable TV level. Yeah. Where any clip you see now from ESPN, it's only about LeBron versus MJ. That's all they talk about now. It's the only narrative I feel like that ever gets talked.

Like when Luca got traded, that was a big thing. But it just always reverts to the mean, which is arguing about who's the goat, LeBron or MJ. And it's like, does anyone, like any real person want to talk about this anymore? Like, is anyone still excited to talk about LeBron James versus Michael Jordan? Can we all agree that, like, Michael Jordan is the cool one and LeBron James is the durable one? Oh, absolutely, yeah. Jordan was the one who like gambled and smoked cigars and drank and was just like an A-hole and, you know, played in the 90s, like all this cool stuff. And LeBron is the guy who like can still like run up and down the court at age 40 and just be dominant.

Yeah. Just an incredible just example of athletic excellence to see at this age. I don't know. That to me is so off-putting, I think, with a lot of NBA discourse. at this point. But you're right. Like when you get into the podcast level, like the real granular Zach Lowe, you know, wing of NBA discourse, there is like a million storylines. And I think it's good for musicians on the road listening to podcasts. It's a good thing to follow if you have like several hours to kill in the band every day. Yeah, but I do think baseball is the most indie rock sport as an

actual athletic event because, I mean, have you ever been in a fantasy baseball league with other music writers. I lasted about like two weeks in a pitchfork one. But isn't that like I feel like that's if you're like you know Yola Tango. Yes. You know like they love baseball but like do younger bands love baseball? I feel like that's an older

musician sport. Like Stephen Malkmus I'm sure loves fantasy. I know he loves fantasy baseball. This is another example of a musician who loves to talk about fantasy sports more than his own music. Like if you ask Stephen Malkmus about Waui Zawi, you know, you would get like maybe one sentence from him about that.

But if you want to talk to him about his fantasy baseball team, he'll talk for like an hour. You know, that's just how he is. So I feel like the musicians over 50 love baseball. But the younger ones, I feel like it's more basketball. And maybe, like you said, like soccer, maybe that's going to be the thing. Well, as far as indie rock artists over 50, whether they fall on the basketball or baseball divide, another band I interviewed that would much rather talk about basketball than their album, was always and molly rankin was in a fantasy basketball league with dug marsh for built to spill so

yeah yeah that's great see and that's another thing where you're like molly rankin loves basketball walk in bucket yeah love it um let's talk about the fantasy album draft do a quick update here um we have a couple albums in play right now we've already talked about bonnie bear his record came out last week. We were talking about this before we started recording. I feel like there's a little bit of a backlash against this record. I feel like it came out, was well reviewed, and I feel like

some of the later reviews have been more negative with this record. My theory is that there's a lot of weird product tie-ins with this album. I was telling you about this before we recorded, that he's selling like a Bonnie Bear branded salmon. Did you see this?

It's like a canned salmon. Sable is, to my knowledge, like I don't go super deep on locks, but I do recall many, many a time going to Jewish deli and having Sable referred to. Like, most of I hate that stuff. I hate smoked salmon. I hate kifil to fish. I'm like, probably going to get tons of emails about like how I don't like traditional Jewish deli cuisine, but I just got to speak my truth.

See, speaking as a. Midwest Lutheran. I love the smoke salmon. Give me some of that. I'll eat that all up. That's probably where Justin Vernon's coming from. He's a fellow Wisconsin night. He likes the smoke fish.

We're smoke fish people in Wisconsin. Bonnie Bear's still doing pretty well, though, right? Bonnie Bear's on... Is he on your team or my... He's on my team? It was my first pick because I was assured you were going to do it. So right now he's sitting at 84. I think when we recorded last week, it was a 90,

but the main culprit. it for this drop was, and I'm fascinated by this. It was like a 2.5 star all music guide review, which we've talked about all music guide before. It's more of like a consumer guide than the critical institution. But like Boney Vare's albums have done historically bad on that site. Like I-I and the self-titled have 2.5 star reviews. Like, I can't think of it any artist. that has a greater discrepancy between the critical consensus than them over the span of a career.

Well, yeah, with AllMusic Guide, I mean, they're known for being pretty generous, I think, with their star ratings. Generally, I feel like they don't go below, like, a three and a half star. You know, if they go below a three and a half star on a well-known album, I feel like that is like, holy crap, like what's going on. So, yeah, you posted about the Bonnie Bear thing, which definitely interesting. I do have to point out, I don't know if you're aware of this, but all music guide is a fellow traveler with you regarding I'm wide awake, it's morning. Two stars on that site for probably the most well-known Bright Eyes album. Like an album that if you were just playing a Bright Eyes record or you want to introduce someone to Bright Eyes, that's probably the one you would pick. Yeah, I felt super validated by that one.

Two stars. Yeah. Two stars? Yeah, there are one, like, when, and the thing, it's like, when there's such a discrepancy between the reception generally and what all-music guide gives it, you remember that. Like, I know that that also happened with Blur's think tank, which, you know, shit record. I'm just going to go on. I'm just going to say that. But, yeah, the thing about, like, Boney Bear is that it's not just, like, one album.

It's, like, a bunch of them. They also have, like, a weird beef with Los Campesinos. but this is like over the span of a career like there is just really no comparison to what's going on with bony bear and yeah the weird part about it is like I kind of agree with them not not the self-title that's my favorite one by far but I guess it's just like proof that like I shouldn't be in charge of a major publication because it'll just look so weird if like my

opinions are the ones that take hold but yeah not having with that. That's like the wire review of FKA Twigs in Q1. That single-handedly tanked its score. So, yeah, I think we're just dealing with a lot more, a lot more potholes, you know, on the road to fantasy draft success. Yeah, I mean, this quarter is shaping up to be more volatile than most because I have a Tune Adidepe. He has a new album coming out on Friday. And it's just a short. first solo record, of course, you know Tunday from TV on the radio, a band that a lot of people love, haven't been active in a while. And I picked this record based on the precedence of well-known indie rockers from beloved bands putting out their first solo record. And I feel like that's usually

money in the bank. And so far, it's not the case for me. This record has a 75 currently on on Metacritic, much worse than Bonny Bear. But equal to DJ Katsy. DJ Katsy. Now, the saving grace for me is that there's only three reviews out so far. But the negative review that's dragging it down came from Uncut magazine there in England. And I feel like Uncut, you're the one who's going against the veteran indie rocker? Like, you should be given this like a 90 or a 100.

To Uncut, like TV on the radio might as well be a new band, you know. That's true. Relatively here. Well, I was going to say, so 60, I'm going to correct, that comes out to three stars, because I think Uncut is on the star system. So I'm guessing in the same issue, there's probably like a Paul Weller album that got like 11 stars, you know, or, you know, or something like that. There's a goddess.

I was going to say Noel Gallagher's high flying birds put out a new record, and it got like seven stars out of five. I mean, so. There's a goddess in the doorway every month for Uncut, you know. I mean, look, I'm just saying this because I'm angry about the review, but, you know, Uncut magazine, like, who's on the cover of Uncut this month? Is it a Beatles photo from 1967, or is it a Sid Barrett photo from 1967? Like, you know it's one of those, because they got to do one Beatles cover a year. It's probably a Sid Barrett cover as well.

Nothing personal. I'm just resentful about the review. I love you Uncut. I like the CD. You put the CD with the magazine. That's a cool thing. Are they still doing that? I don't know if they do that or not. Probably not, actually, at this point.

But that was a cool thing. That was cool. The British magazines would do back in the day. Always like to see that. We should also talk a bit about Lana Del Rey, who was my number one pick. You thought I was going to go with Bonnie Evers, but I went with Lana Del Rey. She has a new record coming out May 21st called The Right Person Will Stay. It's her country record.

It's been billed as that. she's actually going to be playing at stagecoach that festival I'm previewing a lot of songs from the album but she put out the first single I guess it was I think it was late last week she put it out it's called Henry Come On There's another single that she's going to drop on Friday

So the same day at this podcast post That's called Bluebird But Henry come on I thought we would do another jukebox jury thing here That we did this last week where we listened a bunch of singles and we gave numerical scores. This first single from the Lana Del Rey country record, not super country and sort of like an Americana way.

It actually reminds me of like Glenn Campbell, late 70s, which, I'm sorry, late 60s, not late 70s, Wichitaal linemen, Galveston, like all those Jimmy Webb covers that Glenn Campbell was doing back in the day, lots of strings, kind of like a melancholy vibe. It also sounds exactly like a Lana Del Rey song, not really shaking up the formula. There's no banjos going on here or any sort of overt kind of country things.

I'm going to give it a seven. I think it's a solid song. I saw that it's been very well reviewed. I think Pitchfork gave it a best new track, which feels a little bit of like a rubber stamp at this point from Pitchfork with Lannadale Ray. Like they are in the Lana Del Rey tank lately, I feel like with her, which she's put some great records. Norman fucking Rockwell,

great record. But yeah, she's not really shaking up the formula, even though this is ostensibly her country move. Yeah, so I listened to the single, Henry Come On, and I think there are two types of people who will encounter this song. The first, who hear the first lyric,

Henry come on and immediately think, Give Me the Keys, man. And those who aren't indie cast listeners, shout to the 20th anniversary of Alligator. What does that mean? What do you mean by Give Me the Keys? You mean that in the positive way or good way? Give me the keys, man.

You know what I mean? The song, Able, come on. Oh, okay. No, I didn't. See, you were mixing up references there. I'm like, are you referencing another Lannadale-Ray song? I was a little confused by where you were going with that. Okay, I get it now.

Yeah, yeah, because the way she, like, the way she, like, pronounces, like, Henry Come On. And I think, you know, also the fact that there was the 20th anniversary of Alligator that happened, I believe, last week. which is kind of hard to believe. I have most of my memories of that album coming from like late 2005. And if we didn't have to clear out the mailbag to, you know, to fumigate the thing, we would probably just talk about our favorite stories of being drunk and listening to Alligator.

But yeah, the single's fine. It's good. You know, it's Lana Del Rey. And I think that I have to give it a seven because I feel like she's one of these artists where if I haven't been immersed in the lore over the past 15 years and I'm able to like tell the references and, you know, the kind of callbacks to her previous albums. I'm like not, there's like this layer that I'm just not going to get. That often happens with certain TV shows that are very self-referential.

But yeah, I think Glenn Campbell, like late 60s orchestral kind of country where the vocals are country, but everything else is like smoothed out. I'm sure it will do well. Will it do like well enough to carry a fantasy team? Not so sure. You know, I think maybe she's just. in that space where she was in 2023, where it'll be like top 20 on every year at list, but probably not top five.

If she's not mid-80s, at least, I'm cooked. I think it's fair to say that. But I feel pretty confident that it will be a mid-80s record, 85 to 89. I feel pretty comfortable banking on that. Yeah, I mean, Landa No, Ray is someone who, I feel like she definitely has her lane sonically, where it's these very sort of stately mid-paced songs, not a lot going on rhythmically, typically with her music. I guess my hope with this record is that she is a little more overt

with the country influences, if this is a country record. Because I think she's actually really well-suited to make a record like that, as opposed to this single, which I feel like isn't radically different from what she's already done. But if she's going to lock into like a patsy clon, type thing or even like a Loretta Lynn type thing. I think that would be great. And I hope there are songs like that on the record.

So we'll see. Maybe Bluebird, which again is dropping concurrently with this podcast. We haven't heard that song yet, but maybe that will be the song. In the intro, Ian, I teased that we were going to talk about the Katie Perry and Space story. Yes. Which for those who don't know, maybe there was a mission. to outer space this week with, it was like an all-female crew

who went into space for like 10 minutes. Like I didn't really understand like what this, what the story was going to be. Like, I thought, is Katie Perry going to the moon? Is there like a space station? Is she going to be living up there for a while? Is it going to be like a reality show? But apparently, they shot this rocket up in the air

and it was Katie Perry, it was Gail King. I don't know who else was on the ship. Yeah, respect to that, but I don't know who you are. Let's just say Katie Perry for our purposes. Shot into the air, and they were in space for 10 minutes, I guess. Which, that's 10 minutes longer than I've been in outer space. So I'm not taking any shots, but it was a very quick journey. And she came back, and they showed her kissing the ground.

Very happy to be back on Earth. And I don't know if. I'm just jaded or there's just been too much going on in the world. Or maybe, you know, we're just getting old and we're not as sharp on the podcasting game as we used to be. I feel like we could have used, there was a time where we could have gotten a half hour out of Katie Perry going to outer space. And I find myself, I don't have anything to say about this. And I'm not seeing a lot of think pieces about this either. Maybe this is a sign of the media being in decline.

I saw a couple think pieces and where people were maybe trying to get upset about this because they spent a billion dollars on this trip and it seemed like a big waste of money and there was this sort of idea of this is like the first all-woman crew I guess to go into space am I right about that? I think yeah there's absolutely a component of that to it

like one small step for womankind I don't know for woman one giant leap for womankind, like that kind of idea. But I just feel like the response in general to this story was very underwhelming. I really don't. We tease that we talk about this, but like I don't know if we have anything to say on it. And that to me is maybe noteworthy that Katie Perry being in outer space no longer seems like something that you can actually say anything about.

Yeah, I mean, the third Friday of April is always going to be a pretty slim, pickens for us here at Indycast because that's the you know cochella weekend too usually so we are just we are scrounging for banter and the fascinating thing about this we were talking about beforehand just how little meat there is on this particular bone it's like I don't know if we're just like so accustomed to space travel and like nothing katie perry stories that the unification of it just does even less than nothing. I mean, maybe that's just like a sign of like how we advance we are as a society or how there's just so many other things I'd rather pay attention to going on.

But it's sort of like Fire Fest too apparently. That's another thing. Yeah. It's just like we, again, this could have been 10 minutes of banter in like 2022 or something like that. But yeah, I just, I don't think it's. Well, we should say quick. We are jaded, but also that there's just nothing.

there's just this dog won't hunt. Well, and we should say quick, for those who don't know, and why would you know, Firefest, the famous debacle music festival, there was a sequel announced to it, Firefest 2, which we didn't talk about on the show, because there just wasn't the enthusiasm for it. And then they announced this week that it's been postponed indefinitely. And that's just another instance of something that might have seemed interesting three years ago, but it's like, oh, yeah, whatever. Have you looked at the world lately?

Yeah. Do we really care about Fire Fest, too? Was this ever going to happen? Like, can we even muster up jokes about this? It's not even fun to joke about, really. You know, it's like, whatever. And Katie Perry in space.

It's like, what else you're going to say about Katie Perry at this point? What are you going to say about outer space? Outer space is passe, apparently. Space travel is boring. Monous Mouse said that in, like, 1996. Man, sage words, Isaac Brock, sage words. So another topic that I feel like would have been a big deal, maybe three years ago, and seems less important now, is Coachella. And I'm not just saying on this show, I feel like in general there was less conversation about the festival, which happened last weekend.

Are they still doing the two weekend thing at Coachella? Yes, they are. So the first weekend of Coachella was last weekend. And I saw some conversation about it. People were talking about watching live streams at home and things like that. But again, maybe my perspective is skewed, but I feel like in the past, Coachella was always a big event. A big media event. People were writing about it.

They were using Coachella as a way to determine what was important in culture. If a band played at Coachella and they didn't have a very big crowd, you would see things. pieces from critics saying, oh, I guess this band isn't as popular as we thought. Or even, you know, broader than that, they would say, well, guitar bands are over because this band played to this size crowd and rapper X played in front of, you know, 10,000 more, or 10 times more people or whatever. You don't really see that stuff anymore. The only story that bubbled up this week, and as soon as I saw this, I was thanking the discourse gods, because I was like, okay, this will be something we can talk about in the show. Charlie X-E-X, having a beef, sort of, with Green Day. Green Day, a

headliner at Coachella, which we can talk more about in a minute here about whether they should have been the headliner, but they were the headliner, I think, on Saturday night. Yeah. Was it? I believe so, yeah. And Charlie X-E-X was, I think, the act right before them, or one or two acts before them. I think she went on at around. seven or so. So as it's getting dark, and then Green Day closed the night. And then there was a photo

that circulated of Charlie X, X, X, at an after party. And look, is there ever an after party that she's not at? I feel like every photo of Charlie X, X, X, X, X, is at an after party. But anyway, she's wearing a sash,

like a beauty pageant sash that says, should have been the headliner, or Miss should have been the headliner. Something like that. A little bit of a shot at Green Day. And of course, everyone jumped on this. And there were people defending Green Day. And there were people defending Charlie X, X, X, X,

people saying, Green Day is way bigger than you, Charlie X, X, X, X. And then people saying, Charlie X, X, X is way bigger than Green Day. And then there was the other faction saying, it's not a big deal. It's just a joke. Chill out and all that from there. I have some thoughts on this, but I'm curious for you, Ian, Charlie X-CX versus Green Day.

Where do you stand on this? And do you think this has any greater significance in the culture? So I think one thing we do have to clarify is that Green Day set ended at 1045 on Saturday. Travis Scott went on at 1140. So I think that was like kind of the secret fourth headliner. Also, you want to know who else played after Green Day and may have been technically headlining, the dare. They played at 11 o'clock.

Also, the misfits did at 1120, which is just hilarious because when you think about the sort of people who would actually see the misfits, like, they are not staying up to 1120. Or going to Coachella. Yeah. Let's go to Coachella and see the misfits. Yeah. I don't see that being a big thing. So, yeah, also like on the Coachella main stage, you had Jimmy World at 4, T-Pain at 525,

Charlie XX at 715 and then Green Day at 9. So that's a pretty bad ass lineup. But yeah, as far as like, I don't know, like who should be headlining or what have you. Like, I guess like Charlie XX probably should headline a day. Like whether it's against Green Day, I think that like comparing those two is less. The thing that like, I don't know, bothered me to the extent that this stuff can't bother me or people saying that, oh yeah, if you're like under the age of 25, you have no idea who. who Green Day is.

Like, we're talking about a band who put out, like, 30 years and 20 years ago, like, two of the most popular rock albums of all time. And they know who they are, whether or not they're interested in them or not. Like, that is a question. I think, I feel like you'd probably have a better grasp on things. But, like, I went to go tell it. My kids, my kids know who Green Day is. They're 12 and 8.

It's not because I'm playing Green Day all the time in the house, okay? I'll just say that. They know that because they're just. the band that gets played out in the public a lot. I mean, they are whatever you thought like the Rolling Stones were 20 years ago. Like, that's what Green Day is now or any, or you two or any kind of like, like they are one of the sort of, you know, stock old rock bands. It's like them, the chili peppers and food fighters. They're in that class. Yeah, because I think of, like, I went to Coachella the first time in 2008.

And I think about like what would be the equivalent of a Duky or American Idiot, you know, just like the album that was popular 30 years ago. You know, Paul McCartney headlined. And I'm not saying like Dream Days at the level of the Beatles, but it's still like, hey, this is a band. You've been, they've been played on the radio for consistently. And they're also a Southern California. Well, not a Southern California band. They're in Northern California.

They're California. It's kind of like the chili peppers. So, you know, it would be like Pink Floyd. headlining or something along those lines, you know? So, yeah, if you get Green Day, they're going to be the headliner, even if they, you know, haven't really put out a record that's moved the needle in a very, very long time. But, I mean, do you, you got to see Charlie X, X, X, X on the main stage. You got to see her at 7 o'clock.

I think it would be better if she played the Travis Scott time at, like, 1140, you know? So. Yeah, I'm a little confused. by what Coachella is doing right now. I wonder if they're in a transitional phase, like where they're trying to figure out what they're doing, because for the longest time, it just seemed like they were catering to kids in Southern California

between the ages of 18 and 23, and not that they're kids. I mean, young adults. And, yeah, those people know who Green Day is, but it is a little bit of a weird booking for me, sandwiching them between Travis Scott and Charlie XXX. I mean, look, I think she's just wearing the sash.

It's a funny thing to do. I don't think it's something people should read into too much. But if we're going to look at the question of like, should she be a headliner, you know, someone was sharing this screenshot of Spotify monthly listeners for Green Day and Charlie XXX. And I think Green Day had 32 million and Charlie XX had 30 million. And I was actually a little surprised that it was that small of a gap. I assumed in my mind that Green Day would. have more listeners than that or would have maybe 10 million more listeners more than Charlie

XX. But like if the gap is that small and Charlie XX just has like more cultural capital right now than Green Day, I think it's fair to say. I don't understand the rationale for that other than Green Day just being this touchstone rock band that makes sense to put in that slot. The thing I was going to say the sort of big picture thing that I would throw out there is that in terms of like the online response I did feel like there was a desire to attack Charlie XX a little bit. Some of the reactions to that photo, it felt a little backlashy to me and it made me think about our conversation about Brat and whether that is going to be looked at as a Kamala Harris 2024 era record.

And if that already feels a little dated, even if we're only four months into 2025. Seeing the reaction to the Green Day thing, because I feel like a year ago, it would have been 90-20 for Charlie X-E-X. Yes. And this time, I feel like, I don't know if it was 50-50, but there was like a lot of Green Day people. And they weren't all like 50-year-old Gen X people. defending Green Day. There were younger people also caping up for Green Day. And it felt less about Green Day and more about Charlie XX, more about like, okay, enough of this person. You know, we're a little sick of this. I don't know. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. I'm curious to see as we get farther away from Brat. But I don't know. There is something about that record, I think. If I had to guess, I think that's going to be looked at as a pre-Donald Trump.

Trump getting reelected record. And Trump winning the election, I think, is going to change how that album is looked at in retrospect. I could be wrong, but if I was putting money on it, I think that's how, I think it's going to affect that record in a negative way moving forward. It could. I also think of it maybe similar to Lemonade being one of the most, like, just before Donald Trump getting elected the first time type record. So it feels very much like a 2016, like Hillary. on with her era type record but I think Brad's gonna hold it.

Really? I don't feel that with lemonade as much because I don't think Beyonce was I mean did she campaign for Hillary Clinton? I can't remember. I feel like Hillary Clinton campaigned for Beyonce. I'm sure there was. I'm sure she was trying to but like when I think about like...

Yeah, because Hillary Clinton did the eye of the hot sauce in my handbag type line where she like pulled out like an actual thing of hot sauce and one of the many things that she was doing. See, I would like in Brat more to like Broad City. To me, where Broad City was a very beloved show, a very funny show. I'm a fan of that show.

But like the Hillary Clinton thing totally changed how people looked at that show. Perhaps unfairly. But that would be the analogy I would make the Charlie X-CX. I think Beyonce, I don't know, She's just so big. I don't, when I think about the cringe Hillary Clinton media of 2016, I don't think of Beyonce. That's not one of the things that comes to mind. Whereas with Kamala Harris, I think of Brat immediately.

Yeah, absolutely. If you think about pop culture associated with that. And it's Charlie XX's own fault because of that stupid tweet she did. Like that record was already running strong, you know, And she kind of co-opted herself with that. And she didn't need to do that. Maybe she had good intentions at the time. Maybe she thought I could help her win.

But I don't know. I think she just hurt herself with that. Could be wrong. I don't know. We'll see. She's still obviously very popular. She's going to continue to be very popular. But that specific record, I feel like it's going to have that baggage.

Yeah, I am fascinated to see how it evolves from here. And also, I think, what the whole sash gate or whatever you want to call it, pointed out of that, you know, Like, this is what Charlie XX was doing for, like, a solid 10 years before she had, like, a real, like, big time hit. Like, she would just show up, kind of do some trolley online stuff and keep it moving. But, yeah, I don't know how this album's going to evolve. I think that I do predict, you know, she'll probably go away to a certain extent. Also, I just need to point out that on Sunday on the Coachella stage, you had Shabuzi, followed by

Biba Doobie. So that's a really cool one-two punch. Also, I saw Junior H after them. I thought that said Local H. So shout to Local H. Love it. Love it. Let's get to our mailbag segment here. We're almost like running out of time. God damn. It's like we talked about how we didn't have much banter for Katie Perry, but we had a ton about Sashgate. I love that by the way, Sashgate. We're going to use that for the Charlie XXX Green Day thing. So it's great to hear from our listeners. Ian, you want to read, hopefully we have time for two emails. We'll go quick here.

Why don't you read the first email? I will do that. So this comes from Ben and Sao Paulo. I imagine that's Brazil, unless there's other Sao Paulo's out there. That was a crossword clue today, so shout to them. I had to pause my dishwashing while listening to the March 28th episode and write this email. You guys were discussing how you don't care for Lucy Dakes' Grand Theft Auto reference with Steve saying this is a little to M.J. Lenderman adjacent and I don't want to be accused of hypocrisy.

In my view, this can't be seen as hypocritical because the brilliance of bark at the moon is that Lenderman is not into the idea of how younger people get socialized into rock-centered subcultures when rock is no longer culturally dominant. Guitar Hero was certainly as much of a touchdown for people of my generation interested in rock, as was School of Rock and for people younger than me, the after-school cover band activity school of rock. No other members of Dogleg met at a local school of rock branch, and I believe M.J. Lenderman also participated in one.

you view these, for lack of a better term, vectors of cultural exposure in terms of their implications for the growth and direction of rock music broadly. In the short term, it certainly seems the creative output of some of these school of rock guitar who are legacy students have been positive, but I'm not sure this advances the idea that, to paraphrase front of the pod, Patrick Snickles, that rock is becoming a slightly academic art form. I can see how you could, I can see how the idea of consciously participating in the rock canon or sub-canons that you find on rate your music. or Reddit could make things more stifling or more liberating for someone making music today.

But I'm curious what you guys think. With your respective backgrounds and capital R rock canonicity and the dense and violent world of online scenes politics are important here. I really hope that Ben got back to the dishes, man. Wow. Wow. This is an essay. Yeah, I know. And I think because he asked the question in the middle of the email.

And then he said a bunch of things after that. But I think the question is, basically, how do we view the impact of video games like Guitar Hero as well as like after school, school of rock programs impacting how rock music is viewed? Do I have that right? I think that's the question. Yeah, basically things that signify rock in a very like overtly rock way, like Guitar Hero, School of Rock. things that were more or less codified in the early 2000s. Yeah, I mean, there is something interesting about rock music being taught to kids, almost like classical music.

You know, like instead of learning Beethoven or, you know, some old composer, you're going to go to an after-school program and learn sweet child of mind, which, by the way, my daughter, who's currently taking ukulele lessons from, it's not called School of Rock, but it's a school of rock-like program. she's learning the riff to Sweet Child of Mine on the ukulele. And I was picking her up from the lesson yesterday. And I was talking to her about slash. And I made a slash reference, and she had no idea who a slash was.

And I had to explain to her that slash is the guitar player in Guns and Roses, and he's the one who wrote the riff that she was just practicing. So, I mean, I look at it as a positive. I mean, obviously, without these things, you know, where would M.J. Lenderman be if he hadn't played guitar hero? Would he have even gotten into writing great rock songs in the 2020s, or would he be doing something else musically? Who knows what that would be? I mean, getting back to the original sort of inspiration of this, what we were talking about is musicians referencing video games in lyrics, which I feel like is becoming a more common thing. I was actually

listening to the upcoming record from a band called Friendship, a really good band from the same kind of world of, you know, southern bands. They're not, I don't know how, where they are in proximity to, actually, I'm trying to think, is Friendship from Philadelphia? They're from Philly, yeah, but I think I think the, uh, the lead singer, songwriter is actually doing the University of Iowa writing workshop. I mean, he's like a really writerly dude, but Well, because there's friendship and there's another band called Flory that I like a lot. Florey's also from Philadelphia, but like they scan as Southern. And friendship to me also does.

They have like a silver Jews vibe to them a little bit. But anyway, they have a song on their upcoming record called Resident Evil. So I guess it's not a video game. That's a video game, yeah. That's a video game. Wait, what's the movie I'm thinking of then? There's also a movie called Resident Evil based on the game. Right, right.

Okay, so I knew it was a video game, and I have to listen to lyrics more closely. I don't know if they're talking specifically about the game or the film adaptation of the video game. But regardless, clearly this is something that, you know, you're talking about songwriters now who are in their 20s, maybe even 30s. And video games, I mean, that's a part of their life. I mean, that's what they grew up with, and it's also even part of what they do as adults. So I don't know if anyone's ever done, like, a study of this in music lyrics. The prominence of video games, if this has become a more important thing. I mean, obviously you have Lana Del Rey.

I don't know if that's like the like a Rolling Stone of video game songs, video games from the early 2010s. But anyway, that might be an interesting cultural study to do at some point. Yeah, also you mentioned dog leg meeting at school rock branch. Their debut out melee was also a Super Smash Brothers reference. They used to have like emulators at the show at the merch. table. But yeah, we also have the Sufyan Stevens song video game, which was very anti-video game. So it's like, choose your path. I do think that, yeah, I mean, why wouldn't you talk about video games? I mean, I think that there's very much a concurrence of people who will spend

like hours at a time playing guitar and people will spend hours at a time playing video games. And so as far as the School of Rock piece, you know, it seems to me like mostly harmless, you know, it's similar to sending your kid to an after-school sports program or a summer camp, you know, it's where you learn to play the instrument and you go from there. I can think of so many bands who, if you kind of grill them about it, they'll talk about how the first song they learned to play on guitar was like probably Green Day

or, you know, like Blink 182. And I also know that there are a lot of School of Rock type camps specifically for, you know, females, which have been like super, super important. I know that, you know, I think snail mail was one of the artists who was big into that. And yeah, I mean, does it, you know, I don't think you can look at rock in the current moment and see too much impact of school of rock.

I don't see anyone trying to sound like the darkness. I'm going heavily deep into deaf leopards discography for something that will appear in a couple weeks. And yeah, like all that stuff is like popping up in country. I just think it's more. But it's not, it's the fact that kids are playing instruments. Yeah. I would say that it's actually had a pretty significant impact because, especially when these kids were growing up,

there wasn't really anything else in culture that would have been encouraging them to play instruments. Yeah. So if you took that out of culture at the time, I think it's fair to assume that whatever you want to say about where rock music is now, it might even be like less important if it weren't. for these things, encouraging people. And like, yeah, they don't sound like the darkness, but like they are playing guitars, you know.

And they had that as an entry point that made them care about it. So I think it's definitely a positive thing that continues to be. And I've seen it firsthand, you know, like just seeing kids play music, even if they don't play this kind of music forever, it gets them interested in it. And yeah, you said mostly harmless. I wouldn't see any harm in it. I don't know.

I would only see positive. Yeah, I always see positive things. You know, you also take into account that, like, guitars became more popular during the pandemic. And also, like, the fact that, like, schools themselves don't have band anymore, like, so many things that are considered extraneous are being cut, you know, whether it's, like, gym or band, the arts or what have you. Like, this is a necessary thing for people who want to play instruments to do so. And I think it's cool to, like, be able to do it in that sort of format as opposed to, you know, learning everything on YouTube, which is great. But, yeah, I think that it's good that this stuff exists.

And also, as far as video games, yeah, let's do more. Do we still have time for our second email or should we hold this for next week? I think we got to get it. I think we can get through this. Okay, very quickly, I think we might edit this down because there's two questions here being asked. We may just have to do the first question. This comes from, let's look here. It comes from Chad.

in Detroit, Michigan. And I'm just going to do the basic question at the top. The Mars Volta, yay or nay? There's a new Mars Volta record, isn't there? Did that just come out? Yeah, I do believe so. And Mars Volta are at a point where, you know, like they're just barely even getting reviewed.

So Lucrosuccio Los Ojos de Vacio. Wow. Okay. And it looks like they're going on tour as well. And that record, it was announced on the 7th. and it came out on the 11th, so it's been up for a week. And I have to say for myself, Mars Volta, I'm trying to think of like the last record

where I was on board at the beginning of the cycle. It probably was like an early 2010's album. I actually interviewed Omar, the guitar player, for the AV club, for one of those records. It wasn't Francis the Mute and it wasn't De Laosst in the Commatorium. Was it Bedlam and Goliath? Octrahedron. I think it was Bedlam and Goliath.

Yeah, that's it. And yeah, it was 2008 is when I interviewed him for the A.B. Club. Bedlam and Goliath. He was a very nice guy. Had a good conversation with him. I think I checked out somewhere after that with New Mars Vulture Records. And have they consistently? put out records that whole time or did they also go on hiatus and then come back?

Yeah, I think that there's a cool, there's a funny irony in trying to get us to like, you know, keep it tight when talking about Mars Volta. But do you know, like, have they? No, they put out Nocturnicate in 2012 and then a self-titled in 2022. So they went away for about 10 years. I think they were still, yeah, they were like on hiatus or what have you. But, yeah, they are not a, they feel like they've always been around. even if they're not like releasing music.

So, but yeah, the Laos and the Cometorium, we talk about this all the time, about the 699 Best Buy classics, and that might be the ultimate one. Either that or the Vine's highly evolved. I distinctly recall buying that album, mowing my lawn and thinking, yeah, I don't think I like this.

I don't, well, I will not listen to the Mars Volta's music for enjoyment. I do have to give a shout out to the Battle of McGuire. That was my first pitchfork headline review. But every generation needs a Mars Volta. Yeah, you know, I was just thinking about how the Prague rock guy who's in the indie world or adjacent to the indie world, that used to be more of an archetype, I think, and that's really gone away. Like the people who are really stumping for the Prague rock bands.

And I feel like that guy has since transitioned. into jazz. Like, they're big jazz person now. And, like, maybe 10 years ago, they would have been talking about Mars Volta, but, like, now it's, like, Natural Information Society. Like, that is now they're going to talk. Or like Bill Orchit, you know, like, stuff like, Bill Orchid isn't jazz. He's, like, instrumental guitar music.

But, you know, I feel like instrumental guitar, jazz, like, it's the same kind of person who is gravitating to that kind of music. And that's, there is, like, a fair amount of that music that I like as well. But, you know, like that Aquarium drunkard world of music, which love Aquarium drunkard, great, great sight. But, I mean, it's definitely a type now of, like, in my mind, there's a genre of music. That's Aquarium Drunkard music where it's like instrumental guitar music. It's like jazz music.

It's like. Yeah, Jeff Parker is the Charlie X, the X of that world. Jeff Parker, who, Jeff Parker's great. I love, there's records of his that I like quite a bit. sort of like a Yola Tango type indie rock. Like Yolatango is like the Beatles in a way of that world. And I don't know. It's not exactly the same person, I guess, as the Prague rock person.

But I feel like the Prague rock guy has gone away. The champions of like the Mars Vulta. We don't have it anymore. I feel some... Those people kind of came out for Black Midi. Yeah, that's true. That is true. And maybe they're on Black Country New Road.

Maybe they've gone to that as well. But I have affection for that guy, and I hope he hasn't completely gone away. So where are we gone, Prague Rock guy? Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so I'm going to listen to your album if you're a band that has eight members

or and or if you're like a band who's, not on a major label or like a big indie label and you put out a 78 minute album with a ridiculously long title. So the band Kitchen and I've seen a couple people propping this one up. They are the latter. Their new album is called Blue Healer and Ugly Snowlight, Grey on Grey on Grey on White. Rhymes. Pretty cool. So it is a, I guess like a one person, but like kind of a band surrounding him from Rochester, New York, who's working in that, microphones, Alex G, Fulke, Slowcore Lane. But it's in the context of a 78-minute album. So there's some really clear the glow part two influence. Some early Sufion in there as well where they'll have like experimental

found sound type tracks, but really beautiful folk songs and like 10 minute long lyrical songs happening. So it's a record I've like, you know, listened to a lot over the past week or so. Still feel like I'm just getting know it, but it's definitely going to be something that I am going to be stumping for all year. I see myself really, really, really loving this as I get more familiar with it.

But yeah, I think a lot, it's starting to catch on, I think, in at least some section of music Twitter. So kitchen, blue healer and ugly snowlight, gray on gray on gray on white. You need to know the album tag because otherwise you're not going to find this band on Twitter or on Google.

So I want to talk about a record I wrote about this week on Up Rocks. I encourage you to go check that out. The record is called Residence, and the artist is called Bill Fox. And Bill Fox is someone who, I feel like most people have not heard of before. But when you hear his music, I feel like most people become fans. He's a very easy person alike, even though he has a very sort of obscure, almost non-existent public profile. And he is the epitome in a lot of ways of like a cult singer-songwriter. He used to be in a band called The Mice, which is a well-regarded power pop band that existed in Ohio from the 1980s.

It gets named check by a lot of different artists over the years. Most famously, Robert Pollard have gotten by voices, really talked about them being a formative influence on GBV when they were first getting started. Probably Fox's most famous records came out in the late 90s when he transitioned. transition to being more of a singer-songwriter, writing these great pop songs with sort of Dylan-esque instrumentation, vocal, guitar, harmonica. Really great lyrics. Those records are called Shelter from the Smoke, which came out in 96, and then Transit Byzantium, which came out in 98. And then he disappeared and no one really heard from him for a while. There was a famous story written in The Believer by Joe Hagan, great journalist, that again, if you're into this

kind of music, that story is very famous, been passed around so many different text threads that I've been in before. This is the first Bill Fox record in 13 years, and it's just great songwriting, really kind of heart-tug-at-the-sleeve type music, and people tend to reference so many different foundational artists when they talk about his music. You know, I mentioned Dylan already, a little bit of Beatles. in there, some big star for sure in there. But the song's justified. He is a great

songwriter. It's the kind of songs that you hear and you feel like you've heard them already. They just have like a classic timeless feel to them immediately when you play them. I wrote about it this week and it was fun turning people on, not just onto that record, but his other records as well. Again, he's just someone who, you know, some artists are obscure because they make really challenging music. It's not music meant. to be heard really or appreciated by the majority of people.

Bill Fox is not like that. These are songs that are meant to be heard and they're very likable, very approachable type music. So definitely check him out. Again, the records called Residence. The artist is Bill Fox. Really good stuff. That about does it for this episode of Indycast.

We'll be back with more news reviews and hascing out trends. Or hashing out trends. That's it, hashing out trends. Hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the indie mixtape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.