Indiecast - A New Sufjan Stevens Album + U2 At The Sphere

Episode Date: October 6, 2023

Loyal listeners are aware that Steven is currently wiping the floor with Ian in their Fantasy Fall Albums draft (3:24). But Ian has a shot this week to make up some ground with the release of Javelin, the new critically acclaimed album by Sufjan Stevens (9:58). While Steven respects Sufjan's talent and stature in the indie world, he's never quite warmed up to the singer-songwriter, due to his undeniable "theater kid/youth pastor" vibes. Ian meanwhile is a big fan and considered Javelin a return to form. Hear the guys hash it out over one of indie's most beloved legacy acts.From there the conversation shifts to Steven's recent trip to Las Vegas to see U2 play at the new state-of-the-art venue Sphere (24:55). We have all seen video clips of this thing by now, but what was it like to be there in person? And what other acts can possibly play this thing? Changing gears dramatically, the guys get down to talking about the amazing popularity of Duster, the '90s-era slowcore band that was mostly ignored in their time and now ranks as one of the most streamed bands of the era. What's it like to see your own musical past re-written by future generations? (37:19)In Recommendation Corner (55:31), Ian talk about the emo revival band Bewilder while Steven recommends the emerging Minneapolis alt-rock outfit Prize Horse.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 158 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about the new Sufion Stevens album, you two at the sphere and the shocking popularity of Duster. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He didn't see the 1975 this week because you guys are sick of hearing us talk about the 1975.

Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? I don't want to kind of disappoint people by saying that, yeah, I skipped the 1975 concert because, I don't know, I feel like Maddie Healy's on some camp crusty shit. Like, he won't be saying or doing anything on stage. Like, maybe he's going to, like, do some really cool stage banner because, like, they're apparently going on hiatus for a while. But in reality, it's like my wife was out of town and, like, picture me a 43-year-old dude talking to, like, my swiftly friends at work. Like, hey, you want to go see the 19th. I don't think I'm ready for that kind of chaos in my life.

Well, I just hope people appreciate how little we've talked about the 1975 lately. Because, you know, our inboxes just get full. Whenever we talk about something, people aren't totally vibing on. Of course, we had the sports cast controversy. Talked about that on the show. We actually did get a lot of emails after that from people defending sportscast, so I'm glad to see that. We have a letter in our mailbag this week, someone complaining about our subject. subject matter. We'll get to that later. We could have been talking about the

1975, way more than we have lately. I think this was at the Hollywood Bowl, which would have been the show you would have been to. No, they played at the Veehaus Arena in San Diego. Oh, wow. Okay. So, like that, that's right in my backyard. I really could have done it, but, you know, I saw, I saw him last time around on this very same tour. And yeah, it just, yeah, it just didn't feel right. Well, there was that public apology that Maddie Healy made at the Hollywood Bull Show. I don't know if you saw the video of that. It was this sort of like all-purpose apology saying, you know, I know that my words and actions have hurt people.

It didn't seem totally sincere. It kind of seemed like a performance art piece. That sounds like a 1975 song. It's not totally sincere. Exactly. Exactly. It seemed like he was sort of lampooning the public apology phenomenon, which, made me like him.

I thought it was a funny thing to do. Again, I'm a seesaw in this guy. Sometimes he annoys the hell out of me. Sometimes I think he's funny. I don't know where to stand on him. Is there anything else left to say? Do we want to delve deeper into the 1975 or do we want to give our listeners

a little bit of relief here? Now, I'm ready to talk about the deeper cuts from notes on a conditional form. I want to talk shiny collarbone. I want to talk about Bagsy Not Nett or whatever that song is. Only the songs from 15 on. Okay, well, let's put a pause on that. We'll do another special episode devoted to the 1975 in the future,

and I'm sure people will be very excited for that. Let's get to this new Sufian-S Stevens album. It's called Javelin. It's out today. Before we get into the album, should we talk about our fantasy draft? This was your number one pick. This was.

that Metacritic. Last I looked, it was at 84. And the pitchfork review came out today, the day that we're recording, which is Thursday. 8.6. I don't know if that's good enough for you, buddy. This was your number one pick. We're counting on Sufion to pull a 90 or better on Metacritic. That's got to be like the first round pick type numbers. Your boy is looking like Justin Fields at the moment. He has a lot of potential, but he's not delivering the performance that you need. How are you feeling right now? Well, I know that like, well, first off, we got to talk about like the Metacritic redesign, which is one of the worst I've ever seen. You know music's not even on the front page anymore? Yeah. It is completely, it's awful. This art form is cooked, man. It is like

NHL in terms of like games, movies, and TV shows. So wait, so, wait, so it's movies, TV shows, games, That's the big three now? That's the big three. Music's not in there? Yeah. No, go to the front page. But it's completely unnavigable. I mean, games is first, movies next, TV shows.

You got to like click on some shit to get to music. It's fucking grand. Who cares about the Metacritic score of TV shows? No one talks about that. This is like a music thing, man. Come on, Metacritic. It really is. It is like the NHL and that, like, the people who are like into it

are like super duper invested. But I think the movie ones people, well, people who care about movie scores care about like the Rotten Tomato ones. But yeah, I saw that when Sufion first went up. It was like largely like the print magazines like Mojo and Uncut and the ones that like give four stars to everything and you wonder like, man, this thing still exists. But these scores are weighted. So I think in eight six, hopefully like get some sort of like force multiplier.

So I think 90 is still within grasp. It's at 87 right now. But, you know, I need this to be doing Paulo Banchero type numbers, not Markell Fultz. Oh, wow. Look at you. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, the NBA season, I guess, is upon us. So we're dropping some. It is. Remembering some NBA guys here. Yeah, I don't know. I think you're going to get to 90, my friend. I think you're going to be probably high 80s with him. But you do have Taylor Swift.

I can live with that. You have the Taylor Swift, 1989. Taylor's version coming up, which might get 100. Or getting a 98. I could easily see that since no one now wants to write anything negative about Taylor Swift. Are we going to get like a Taylor Swift backlash at some point? I think this Travis Kelsey thing could be the beginning of something. It is so overbearing at this point.

They're showing Taylor Swift at NFL games all the time. She's getting more FaceTime. then, you know, Andy Reid basically at these games now. And you want to look at Andy Reid when you're watching a Chiefs game, by the way. Yeah, must that. That is peak male performance right there. You might not like it, but this is what the ideal male body looks like. It is absolutely what I want to look like when I'm 68 or however old he is.

I don't know. I just feel like the backlash is coming, but probably not for 1989. I think that is going to be a big one for you. but you're going to need it now to do high 90s to make up for Sufion. So I don't know. We'll see what happens. I feel confident. I feel like Sufian was more of like a defensive pick because like I thought you were going to go with it.

So like that was like one where I'm like yeah, that might, Steve might be. Well, I still feel confident. But I think the funnier outcome would be if like I actually reviewed the album like and I didn't tell you or I was like reviewing one of your albums like slow pulp or something like that. and we have like a black socks like a point shaving scandal. That could have happened. Like what would have happened if, you know, Jeremy Larson, he dings you with a DM and he's like, Ian, need you to step up and review Sufion for us. Would you have been like, sorry, Jeremy, can't do it.

Conflict of Interest, got this fantasy draft on this podcast. I picked Sufion as my number one pick. It would be unethical of me to review it for pitchfork. Would you have taken that? stand or would you have taken the check written about it and possibly thrown off our little league here? Yeah, the only conflict of interest there is between like, you know, my desire to, you know, have money and not. No, I would absolutely have done it. I don't, I don't know. I think the integrity of our fantasy draft is a fluid thing, you know. Yeah. I think the more real,

I think the more realistic one is if I would have done like slow pulp or something, which also ran today. That was a 7-5. I think that was a misstep for you in terms of your drafting strategy. I think it was like picking like D'Andre Hopkins. You know, it's like, okay, it's like one of the best albums of indie rock, but there's a real low ceiling there. Yeah, but I mean, last I looked, they were at 8.4, I think.

So that review won't try. All I need them to do is like... The stat filler. They're like your kicker. I need them to do like low 80s. As long as they're above 80, I'm happy with the slow pulp pick. Because I've got my two 90s. I've got Mitzki and I've got Olivia Rodrigo.

They are the team leaders. As we speak, it's a 79. Oh, really? It went below 80? Oh, God. Pitchfork is screwing both of us right now. Maybe pitchfork editors are listening to the show. They're trying to sandbag us both.

I think everything is revolving around this fantasy draft. You know, the whole critical community, they're tuning in and they're sandbagging both of us with these scores. I hope we get letters backlashing the fantasy draft. So it just kind of distracts people from like the sports cast, the Taylor cast. I think ultimately this is the ocean to which all tributaries lead. Well, look, if you're going to complain about fantasy draft discourse, you're wasting your breath because that's not going to stop anytime soon. Let's talk about this new Sufion record.

I want you to take the lead on this because I'm going to hold back here a little bit on my feelings about this album and just Sufion Stevens in general. I know you are a much more educated Sufion person than me, and you also like him a lot more than I do. Talk about this album in terms of his career. How do you feel that this, record fits in with like his whole catalog. Well,

I do have a Sufyan albums ranking list running soon for Up Rocks and yeah, I absolutely need to get on finishing it. But I'm putting javelin in like the three to five range. I haven't quite figured that out yet. I don't think it'll top like Illinois or

Carrie and Lowell in the eyes of the masses. Like those are the ones that are listed as his essential albums on Apple Music, which is what I listen to. But you think this could, you think this could potentially be number three. three, though? I think that the one thing, it's like whatever the opposite of recency bias is.

Like, I mean, most of his best work, be it, you know, even Seven Swans or Michigan or age of odds, those came out in like really, really formative times in my life and the same. So I don't think any new album can really compete with that. But the way I consider this one is that it's a bit of a rebound from the Ascension. Like, that was an album that I was really excited to revisit, because I know that there are, like, a few people who think it's, like, one of his best albums or, like, one of the best albums of the decade. Like, John Perel is from the New York Times listed as number one album in 2020. I did not remember that. But, God, that album, like, took fucking forever to listen to, even more than, like, the 80-minute 1975 album from the same year.

But so this one, you know, I think the first couple of singles posed it as like this rebound. It's like back to the more minimalist, you know, Sufyan. And I talk about this in the piece that for people who are maybe in their 30s, like Carrey and Lowell is like the Sufyan album, whereas for people of our age demographic, it might be Illinois. And so I think for the generation that's currently, you know, shaping the narrative, like Carrey and Lowell is like. the Sufyan album. But this one to me, what I like about it is that it's neither the maximalist nor the super quiet Sufyan, like Seven Swans, for example. I view it as like what if Illinois was as short as Carrie and Lowell, but like the

songs were John Wayne Gacy and the one about the wasp, you know, it doesn't necessarily go one way or the other. It's kind of a consolidation of his strength rather than it returned to full. form. If I had to like liken it to radio head, I'd say it's like his in rainbows in the sense that it. Like it doesn't do anything like super new, but it does so in like a way that's very condensed.

It's like, it's like kind of, I don't want to say like easy listening because like there's some like really dark, devastating-ass stuff on this album. But it's also not like the kind of album that you need to like portion out time for and say, okay, I'm going to listen to this. because Carrie and Lowell, as great of an album as it is, you have to, like, really be ready. You can't just throw that stuff on. I tried listening to that on the way to work, and I just could not make it.

I'm like, I don't, I can't be in this type of mood. So I think it just continues to reestablish him as, like, one of the more versatile and distinct artists of the 21st century. And it's a, it's not a masterpiece, but it's like a triumph. Okay, so my history was. Sufion Stevens is in the aughts, I found him completely insufferable. Like, I didn't like Illinois at all. I tried Michigan, Seven Swans. I just could not get into them in the moment.

And then over time, my feeling about him has evolved into this sort of like, it's not for me, but I respect what he does. And it's funny because I actually kind of like the Ascension. and I think what drew me to that record versus a lot of his other albums is that he wasn't doing the fokey orchestral thing that he's best known for that record is more electronic

it has more of like a new order type influence to it and there's a little bit more aggressiveness going on in that record and I think I responded to that even though it is as you say a very long and kind of punishing listen but you know as you say he's reverted back to his more signature sound on this new record.

And, you know, I'm listening to it. And, you know, I saw Peter Gabriel this week in concert, which was an amazing show, by the way. That might be my favorite concert of the year. I mean, he's touring behind this album that he's been working on for 21 years. And it's still not out yet, but he's put out literally 10 singles from it. Like, this is like a 12-song album. Just like, very the 1975. It's like the fucking endless album cycle.

But like there's no release date yet. And he's too... There is it? No, there's not. But he's kind of put out the whole record already. So I don't know what's going on. You know, he's touring behind it. He played, I think, the entire record live.

If he didn't do the whole record, he did almost all the songs. And they sounded great live. And I'm like, this sounds like a great record. But it's not out yet. And there weren't that many people there. Like the arena was about half full. And it's because he's still. touring in support of a record, that's not out yet, and he's been working out for 21 years.

Anyway, you know, after seeing Peter Gabriel, I was like, oh yeah, I see links to Sufian Stevens here, you know, that Sufian Stevens is part of that lineage of sort of like mainstream art rock where it's very conceptual, it's theatrical, it's grandiose, and I get behind that kind of thing, and I respect the craft of what he does, he's clearly gifted as a composer, and yet He still leaves me cold. And this record I would group into the leaving me cold part of what he does. I'm trying to put my finger on what exactly it is I'm not responding to. And I come back to this sort of theater kid slash youth pastor vibe that I've always gotten from him.

That for me, I don't get the emotional devastation that you're talking about. There's something that keeps me at arm's length from what he's doing. because of the theater kid aspect of it. And it just turns me off. And what I'm curious to hear from you is, you know, you've talked on the show about how a lot of the sort of mass appeal indie music that has come out in the last like 10, 15 years, like you feel alienated from it.

It's not something that you naturally respond to. And we've talked about the national on the show and like how you haven't really gotten into recent national. records. What is it about Sufian Stevens then that separates him from that pack? Because for me he definitely falls into that.

And I guess you could flip this around on me because I still care about the national, but I don't get into this. But what is it about this artist that you feel like exempts him from any misgivings you might have about middle of the road indie music? Well, I think that the he is not beating the theater kids slash youth pastor allegations.

I mean, I think that is a, that is like an undeniable part of, you know, his entire aura. And I appreciated how like seven swans. That's like, I wrote about this. Like that's the kind of album that for the list that you typically make for like Bob Dylan or like artists that existed before 1995. Like that's the kind of stuff that you do like way deep into your career. whereas Sufion did that, like, to follow up Michigan, which was his breakthrough. Now, I think it's that we talk on this podcast a lot about like shittiness, like this thing that like rankles people. And I think that Sufion does always have that, you know, theater.

I'm thinking more like early 2000s theater kid, not like theater kid nowadays where like the theater kids are like the popular people and there's like really nothing. There's like no dissonance to that. But I feel like at least to compare it to the national, which I think is fair, they've had pretty similar trajectories. When I hear a national album nowadays, I hear like the national kind of playing a role or like just the national doing national songs or like what have you. Whereas like with Sufion, you know, I read an interview with, you know, the lead from Blonde Redhead where she compared him like Frank Ocean as like someone who like flies too close to the sun. as like someone who is like channeling like really deep emotional truths on every album. And I feel like he does that. Like I feel that like Sufyan puts himself like as a human being at the center in a way that's

a lot more challenging and a lot. There's like a lower floor higher ceiling than there is when I hear say like a Wilco album or an animal collective album or even like a big thief album. You know like Sufian does have that capability to piss people off not because he's so middle of the road, but because there is that sort of, you know, he used to be in Danielson. So there's, there are definitely some elements that are going to rub people the wrong way. And it's just so wild that, like, he's, that he's held a career for so long, despite being so wildly uncool. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean, like, the thing about the national being the national, you don't think that this album is Sufion Stevens being Sufion Stevens. I mean, because that was one thing I guess I liked about the essential. and also age of odds. That's another record where he's departing from what he's best known for. And those are the records that I don't know if I love those records, but I respond to them more than I do when he's working in this mode on this record. I think that's a great way of putting it.

It's Illinois the size of Kerry and Lowell. That's a great kind of pocket description of this record. And that's squarely in the wheelhouse of what people want. from him, except for me, I guess. But you wouldn't want to appeal to me because I'm not in your fan base. So you don't think that this is him just being him on this record? Well, I think it is. But when I listen to the national, it's like, I feel like Matt Bernger's like playing

like a character. Like he's writing like as a fictional character that exists in the national songs. And there really isn't too many new places for them to go. But like, I still get that kind of personal connection. I feel like I'm like mainlining, whatever it is, like Sufian's going through on each album. Because I remember around the times of like Carrie and Lowell when he, he like gave some interview. And I think he said something to the extent of like, this shit's not a game. This is my real fucking life in terms of, you know, what that album meant to him.

Because for so long he was seen, you know, not wrongly as this kind of dorky theater or like Midwest like Carney Barker type dude, which of course he played up. but I just feel like with each, like he's Sufyan doing Sufion, but he's not necessarily playing a character where it's like in the same way that I get from like the national or like Interpol for that matter where like they're making like brown paper bag the national music or Interpol music. I think it's just certain. For lack of a better term, it's just more emo. See, I don't, I don't necessarily agree with that classification of the national.

I think that is like, I think Berninger is as personal and as intense writing about his own life as Sufian Stevens is. I mean, especially on these last two records, which, again, I think are flawed, unless you put them together like I did and make a masterpiece. I think I'm, well, not a masterpiece, but I think I made a great record out of those two records.

But anyway, you know, he's writing about being a middle-aged guy and being depressed, and it's not the same stuff that he was writing about on Alligator and Boxer when he was single, and going out to bars and, you know, trying to get laid and spilling drinks on his, you know, his suit or whatever. Those records that they put out this year very much hit me as like,

okay, these are reflections of, like, someone who's, like, 49 years old and maybe he's having a midlife crisis. Like, it definitely has that feeling to me. But even if he was playing a character, like, I wouldn't, I don't mind that in songs. I don't mind people kind of taking on a role, you know, and we're going to talk about you two here. a minute. Bono playing the fly on stage during

Zoom TV, I thought was awesome. I'm totally into that kind of thing. I'd be into the national doing their like Octung Baby. I feel if Matt really had like midlife crisis breaking character, like, you know, kind of writing, like kind of going that like real deal character, maybe not like a television version of himself to quote Pink Rabbits, you know? Well, last time I interviewed Matt Berncher, he talked about Octune Baby. Like he was in a Octune Baby phase, and I think he was talking about making like a side project record that was inspired by Octune Baby. This was like two or three years ago, though.

That may have long since blown over. But yeah, again, Sufian Stevens, I respect what he does. He clearly has a cross-generational appeal. And he was able to do that because, like you said, he had Illinois and the aughts. and then he had Kerry and Lowell in the 2010s, and those two albums being able to speak to different age groups and connect with one generation and you connect with the next. That's a very rare thing to pull off.

Actually, I think the National has done that too. We keep bringing in the National here, but the National's done that too, but many bands don't do that. I think Aaron Destner's on this album, so. Right, yeah, and they're definitely, and Sufion Stevens is on one of the national records from this year. So, yeah, again, I know this is good music. I know that he knows what he's doing as a composer and as a lyricist.

It remains to elude me, though, in terms of just connecting with me emotionally. But hats off to him. Looks like this record is getting a good response, though maybe not as good as you need it to be, Ian. We'll see. We'll see as it unfolds here. Let's talk about you two at the sphere. This was a big social media thing this week. People were flooding social media platforms with videos from the first two shows of YouTube's residency at, well, I keep saying the sphere.

It's actually just sphere. You can't say the. It's just supposed to be sphere. Okay. No, it's sphere. I miss red. Well, in my column, I wrote about this because I went to see opening night last Friday. I said the sphere with a little.

4-case T on the the the in the same way that like I say the Ramones even though it's technically just Ramones or like the Eagles are technically just Eagles but no fucking way yeah they are I'm learning a lot today

yeah it's dumb but anyway it's technically just sphere but for those who don't know sphere is this new venue in Las Vegas it is in the shape of a bowling ball it has a huge LED screen on the inside that is capable of

photo realistic images where you could be seeing a band on stage and all of a sudden behind them the screen turns into like a desert vista that seems to have natural light shining on you. It looks very much like a real desert.

It's an incredible piece of technology. It also seems pretty and practical. I mean I'm curious to see who else is going to play this thing. I mean, you two. They have a 25 show residency that's lasting. through the end of the year. There's also this Darren Aronoski film

that's playing in the same space. It's like a nature film, I believe. So that's alternating with U2 for these next few months. You two had 18 months to prepare a show for this space. And I'll just say that I think any artist that's interested in playing

sphere, you have to prepare a show, I think, specific to that venue. You can't just plug in like your normal digital effects. It's sort of like if you get a high-deaf TV and then you put like a DVD from like 2000 on your TV, it just looks super great.

Like motion smoothing. Well, yeah, it just looks super grainy and just, you got to get like the 4 HD disc to utilize the TV. I don't know. It was a pretty crazy experience, I have to say. Did you see any of these very crazy experience? videos that were circulating, do you have any thoughts on this venue and what it might mean for live music?

Yeah, I mean, I read your review twice all the way through and still somehow I still thought it was the sphere, but like, I just, maybe that's what it's like to read it on the phone, but I just can't imagine what it must be like to be in this thing. And that's through no fault of your own. I just can't, like, based on my other concert experiences, I mean, I've been in an IMAX theater before and seen like nature documentaries, but I just cannot picture what it's like to be in this thing. I just keep dwelling back to like imagine Laser Floyd, but more 3D. I'm surprised at like Darren Aronovsky's doing something in here because he's certainly not as

certainly not someone as, you know, center of the road as you too. But I mean, I'm hoping that cool things happen here. What I'm more happening, like what I'm more hoping for is that like nothing happens here. They just can't like book it out or like no one shows up and it, it becomes like, you know, the Las Vegas version of the Whigsphere and the Simpsons. I think that's, I think that would be like a more profound symbol of American decline than, you know, like Las Vegas being what it is now, which is like the Raiders move there, like the A's are supposedly moving there. I think America in general is like seeing boom cities in Utah and Las Vegas. I mean, I just can't imagine what band that exists after 1995 could play it, like with the exception of, wait for it.

Our hometown heroes, imagine dragons. I think they'd fucking kill it. Well, I think cold play makes sense in there. I think. Yeah, music for the spheres. Like, they literally have that album. That's true. And, you know, we got to shout out our boys in Muse.

I think Muse, like with just... Dying the play. I don't know. I don't know if they're big enough to like fill a residency there. I mean, it's like 18,000 seats in that place. It's kind of like a weird setup because it fits as many people as an arena, but it's set up like a theater.

Meaning that like all the seats are on one side and then you have the stage on the other and then the screen is behind the stage. So unlike in, like when you're in an arena, like the seats are sort of like around the stage. And the stage, even if you're in the upper, you know, decks of the, of the arena, you're still closer, I think, than you would be at the sphere if you're in the back. You know, just because it stacks so high up in this screen is like 360 feet or whatever up in

the air, I would say, too, that if anyone wants to go to the sphere, maybe look at 300 and 400 level seats because I was in 100 level, which means like you're closer to the band, but like you actually have to crane your neck constantly to look at this screen. Like actually being a little bit higher up and having a little more perspective is better in terms of like looking at, you know, the screen that's on stage. Yeah, I don't know. I think pop stars too will work in there. I mean, I think like if Taylor Swift wanted to go in there or Beyonce or the weekend or, you know,

I'm trying to think of like other people that would do like a Vegas, right? I mean, like Paul McCartney, like have some Beatles spectacular. You know, that makes sense. I mean, the thing about this is not only the technology part of it, but it's also the residency part of it. And this seems to be something that people think is going to be more of a thing moving forward, where instead of going on tour, artists are going to set up somewhere, and people are going to travel to see them.

And you saw an instance of that recently with Harry Stiles when he was at Madison Square Garden. He did 15 shows there. And there was this thought that, and he did go on a tour, but there was still this idea that fans will go see him almost like a Broadway show or something. And then you have like other artists have done this too. Like on a smaller level, like the hold steady now. This is how they tour essentially. Like they go to one city for a week and they play three or four shows. And then they maybe wait three or four months.

They go to a different city and play shows and people travel to see them. Have you ever gone to a residency like that, like traveled? Like, do you think that that's something people are going to want to do? Well, I think the model that you're talking about, like there's obviously the sphere one, which would be, you know, you two, Cole Play level. And then there's stuff like the Walkmen's most recent reunion tour like they do Chicago. New York, L.A. And, you know, maybe you go out to see that.

I think maybe that's just like what makes sense as far as touring. I don't know if I've, I mean, I've probably gone to L.A. to see some version of that sort of thing. I don't, you know, I guess the closest was maybe seeing Craftwerk 3D, which, by the way, that would be a fucking awesome thing to see in the sphere. Like, that is one of the best multimedia experiences I've had for a show. Oh, totally. Yeah, that'd be a thing.

Yeah, I don't, yeah, I think that, you know, in some ways, like, residencies, like, happen by default for smaller bands. Like, yeah, we can't tour outside of, like, the tri-state area. But, you know, I know that was, like, a thing that, like, so many things that we talked about, like, during 2020 in the pandemic about, like, oh, this is how things are going to be totally different. And now they're still kind of more or less the same. But, yeah, I do think that the residency in some degree makes sense.

But, like, if you have the material for it, like, I, like, I. I've, you know, I, did it count when, like, taking back Sunday played two shows in San Diego, where one night they did, like, louder now and the other night they did tell all your friends. Yeah, that's something. I know some artists do that with, like, albums. Yeah, I don't know. The thing with Sphere is that it's such a big building. And I, I wonder, well, there's two things I wonder, you know, in terms of, like, how they set this up and if they made a mistake.

Like, the first one is, like, the size of it, that 18. thousand tickets. That's just like a lot of tickets to sell every night. And even for you too, you know, they're playing, I think, 25 shows. And just doing the math, like, quick in my head, I mean, you're approaching like half a million tickets over that run. Seriously. How many can David Frick really buy, you know?

That's a lot of tickets. So I wonder if maybe that was a mistake. The other thing is, I wonder if they screwed up by letting people bring their phones into the show? because this was something I wrote about in my column about, about Sphere, which again, you can read on Uprocks right now. You know, there were so many camera phone videos just flooding social media the first weekend of this residency. And I was guilty of it too. I'm shooting photos and videos.

I mean, the screen is so incredible that it's like a Pavlovian response almost. Like you feel like I have to capture this. But now you can go on YouTube. and there's literally like band edited concert films of like the opening weekend. Like you can watch the entire show now on YouTube. And clearly that's not the same thing as seeing it in person,

but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than seeing it in person. And I just wonder like if that's going to help in terms of the free publicity that this thing has gotten so far or if it's going to hurt because the show is basically the same. I think there's like a middle part, an acoustic set that might change from night to night. But, you know, they're playing Octune Baby. And I'm guessing they're doing the same encore most nights because they have like this pre-prepared video presentation. There's not really a lot of flexibility in terms of the production.

I just feel like, man, you kind of gave away the show already by letting people shoot this with their phones. I wonder if that's going to affect ticket sales on any level. Well, I also wonder if like the sort of demographic that's going to go see YouTube in Las Vegas at the sphere is like going to be dissuaded. It's like, oh, now that I've seen it on YouTube, like, you know, now I don't need this anymore. I mean, we have to think about like the age range. And but also like you go for the experience. Like I still don't think that like I think the YouTube's will show like what this experience is like. Because, you know, for someone like myself, like I can't wrap my head around it.

But when I see it, it's like, oh shit, that maybe looks really fun. fucking cool and I need to see it live. So look, I'm not, like I say about the San Diego Padres like fucking up this year, like, I don't care. It's not my money, you know, when they spend so much thing, so much on like something that kind of sucks. But, yeah, I'm interested to see where it goes. But I think they can agree that like the funniest scenario is that it's like one of those

like boondoggle stadiums that like countries build when they get the Olympics and they just straight up don't use it. ever again. Yeah, that could happen. It really could happen. We'll see, though. I don't know. I'm not cheering for it to fail because I do think it's a cool space. But again, when you consider the people involved, you got James Dolan, you got Irving Azov, Michael Rapino. I mean, it is like a, it is definitely like a, you know, like a ghouls gallery here of music industry, lowlifes. We're going to get JD in the straight shot. Now that I know that James Dolan's involved,

oh my God, we're going to get like the fucking blues hammer variety hour. All right, well, let's go to a totally opposite direction here with our next topic. Let's talk about Slow Corp here for a bit. Talking about the band Duster. Now, depending on your age, Duster is either a short-lived and not terribly consequential band from the 90s, formed in 1996, breaks up in 2001. Or if you're younger, this is one of the great bands of the 1990s.

It's a fascinating divide here going on and just like the revisionism that's happened with this band. And people were talking about this online again. You know, on social media, someone was circulating a screenshot of the number of monthly listeners to Duster on Spotify, which I believe is now at 4.5. which I believe is now at 4.1 million listeners. Yeah, could they fill the sphere now? Well, we'll see.

I don't know. I mean, just to put that number in perspective, I was going on Spotify and looking at other listener numbers for 90s indie rock bands. And if you were to combine the monthly listeners for pavement, guided by voices, and built a spill, that is about half what Duster has right now. If you look at low, perhaps what we would have thought is the most famous low core band of the 90s. They have about 10% the number of monthly listeners that Duster has. Just an incredible phenomenon with this group where basically they came and went in the 90s.

We're not very much discussed at all. I'm going to be honest, I never heard of Duster in the 90s. I never listened to them in the 90s. I had no real sense that they even existed back then. And you've written about this. You wrote about this actually quite a few years ago, right? For Stereo Gum in 2018, you wrote a piece about how this band has been rediscovered by a younger generation that has just sent them through the roof. And it just seems like their audience continues to grow like in the last like five years.

And why do you think that is? Like why is this the band out of all these other bands I've mentioned that we think are more. more famous than Duster, but again, aren't listened to nearly as much as this band? Why do you think this band has had this rebirth with, you know, with Gen Z and all those people? Yeah, I mean,

when we mentioned Spotify numbers, I'm sure, like, our listeners will, like, get up in arms as many people do. It's like, that's not a real reflection of popularity or what have you. And, I mean,

I remember having an experience that this year, because like when the boy genius album came out, I saw that like they had about as many monthly Spotify followers as like Tisa Korean, who's a rapper who's album. I enjoy way more. But like four million, I couldn't believe it. Like someone texted me,

he's like, did you know Duster has more monthly listeners than run the jewels? But like, even if they did have more than like modest mouse or what have you, like that's four, that's like four times as many as my bloody Valentine. And I know that like shoe gaze is way more. of a prominent and popular genre than Slow Corp.

But, yeah, I think in 2018, I did write a piece for Stereogum about how Duster had become a major influence on, you know, a lot of bands that were popping up in Philly. Like, you could hear a lot of it in like Alex G or Girl Pool. And one of the, one of the quotes I remember is that I interviewed Mark Richardson, former editor-in-chief at Pitchfork, you know, like a guy who would know these types of things. and he described Duster. They were on Up Records, which is the same label that put out the Lonesome Cratted West, so it's in that sort of realm.

And he described them as not as big as quasi, you know, another Up Records band, which, I mean, gives you a sense of, like, what their status was in its day. And even in 2018, I figured it was, I don't know, like, maybe a version of what happened with American football where, you know, like their band that was, like, relatively obscure in their day. they get name checked by a few hip bands. And then what happens is they, it just the perpetual motion machine of like hype where like one person mentions it and just keep building and building and building to all of a sudden they become like the most famous band of their era. Like, you know, American football like I remember their reunion shows were way more popular than that like sunny day real estate or mineral or like bands that were much bigger in that day. but I think as to why

you know why them and not say like low or coding or bedhead or like the bands that were seen as you know the A tier of slowcore when you listen to Stratosphere which is their 1998 album it's the one that I think is their best which by the way funny shit when I did the 2018 piece it had like a three star review in all music now it's got a five star review you always love when they do that shit on the low but

But, you know, you listen to that album and you think it's like, it sounds a little like Elliot Smith or pinback or Sparkle Horse. And you hear it's very ahead of its time. But I think what appeals to Duster in comparison to some of the maybe more fully foreign bands is that you hear it. And it's like, it's an album like full of really good ideas. And you can think I can do that, but also I can do something with that. And I think we'd be remiss to not, like to mention.

like TikTok. They're apparently fucking enormous on TikTok, which you know, explains why even like explains why like I wrote about in 2018, they seem like a big deal then. And they're just, they've just continued to grow. They had a real spike in the past year

that wasn't really the result of, I mean, they put out albums, you know, very recently. They re-united, put out some records, but it's just super interesting that like, I don't think anyone is, you know, lying and saying, oh, yeah, they were huge or like that I heard them and I knew that, you know, 25 years down the road, they'd be big. I just think that, like, it's just

what happens when some big, someone who's influential, like, gloms on to something and then all of a sudden, like, people just kind of reiterate that. It becomes like this almost zombie statistic, you know? Yeah, I mean, I like your point about incompleteness. I think that's pretty astute. I think there is an element to this band where on one hand, they're a lot catchier than a lot of the other slowcore bands. They sound more like a conventional rock band in a lot of ways while having some of the sonic signifiers of slowcore. But they do seem like a band that maybe didn't go all the way with what they were conceiving at the time, but like younger people could listen to it and take inspiration from it and maybe elaborate

on it in their own music. Alex G. being an example, Alex G, by the way, opening for the foo fighters on their stadium tour next year. Hell yeah. It's incredible. I hope he plays the Om Homer Simpson song that was on TikTok. Have you seen this? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I wonder.

It's like Dave G. And Alex G. And together at last. It's great. You know, my reference point for this is classic rock history. You know, like I wrote a book five years ago called Twilight of the Gods,

which is kind of like a similar thing than what we're seeing with Duster, where, like, when I wrote that book, I was talking about younger generation. listening to music of the 60s and 70s and kind of like reinventing it for themselves, giving it their own meaning that's divorced from like what the baby boomers thought. And, you know, if you look at reviews of my book that people leave on Amazon, sometimes baby boomers come on and they're upset about the book because they don't like

younger generations rewriting the history of like their own lives. And I got to say, like I kind of know what that feels like now with this duster situation. Not that I'm upset about it, but there is something kind of disorienting about younger generations rewriting a period of music that you live through and you having no real power to speak against it. You know, that we are now in the situation where Duster is part of this discourse of like the major bands of that era, even though I think for most of us that were alive at the time, like they would never even be considered an important band. And, you know, again, to kind of bring it back to the classic rock thing, I think you do see something similar, like when younger fans, for instance, talk about Bob Dylan. You know, a younger Bob Dylan fan online now is probably not going to be talking about like a Rolling Stone or blown in the wind. You know, these classic songs that we all associate with Bob Dylan because those songs have been talked about to death. You know, they've been stripped mind of like all of their uniqueness and specialness and freshness.

by a million books and documentaries. And they're still great songs. But if you're a younger fan, you're probably going to be drawn more to like the 80s albums that Dylan put out or his Christian rock period or other periods that were maligned at the time. But now you can go back and listen to them and you can appreciate what was good about those albums and also feel like, hey, this belongs to me. Because, again, the boomers haven't totally talked these albums.

albums to death. And I wonder like with Duster if there's a similar thing where if you're 20 years old and you care about 90s indie rock, yeah, you know my bloody Valentine is a great band or you know that pavement is a great band, but you are sick of hearing Gen Xers talk about these groups. It's like you've heard it so many times that you can't really get past the baggage of all of the think pieces that have been written about those bands to hear the music for what it is. So now here's another band from that era that nobody from the Gen X cohort was writing about or talking about or caring about. And in a way, it's like, oh, this is the 90s indie rock band that can belong to me.

Like this is almost like a new band even though they're 25 years old. I wonder if to what degree that plays into it as well. Because again, even this is old music, it seems fresher, I think, in a way, because it hasn't just been written about to death on pitchfork or whatever, all music guide. Yeah, I think that's absolutely a part of it. Because we talk about this so many times in the show how each generation tries to, you know, is somewhat of a reaction against what came before. And, you know, it's just so interesting that, like, slow core is. something that is resonating with, you know, a younger audience because it goes against everything that you're told all the time that, like, younger people are listening to. But then again,

when you think about, like, Slowcourt to begin with, like, Lowe was kind of protest music at the beginning against, like, grunge and, you know, loud, punkish music. Like, we're going to play as slow and quietly as possible and find our audience with it. And so, I mean, it's, it's cool and it's also scary to know just how little of what we're talking about, what we obsess over right now might matter in the future. Well, yeah. Because, yeah, like, 10 years from now, like, all the, like, who the fuck knows, like, what's going to be the thing that, like, uh, sticks?

And it's going to be the decision made by someone who's, like, 13. Exactly. You are not in control of music history, even if it is your history. I put that in quotes. Like, if you grew up at a certain time, you don't own that, that history. I mean, another example I would throw out there is if you were to talk to like the average, say, like 58 year old music nerd, that person probably thinks that the clash is a better band than Fleetwood Mac. And yet, if you talk to like a classic rockhead who's 25, they probably care more about Fleetwood Mac than the clash. Now, both bands are great.

But, you know, in 1977, one band... The only band that matter. Yeah, exactly. The clash were the only band that matter. they were like the epitome of like cool underground music and Fleetwood Mac was like middle of the road pop music that serious music people didn't take seriously and that's totally flipped in like the last like 40 some years these things happen all the time and as you get older you start to notice it more and you in the table's turn where like at some point you are the insurgent you get to rewrite history and then you get a little bit older and you realize like, oh wow, like now people are rewriting my history. I have no control over it. It's kind of, I mean, I think it's fascinating. Even if it's confounding, I still think, oh,

that's part of what makes this so much fun to write and talk about. Yeah, what is IndyCast, but just like an exploration of the inexorable march of time towards death? Well, on that, no, let's get to our mailbag here quick. So thank you all for writing. It's always great to hear from our listeners. You can hit us up at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com. Ian, you want to read this week's letter? I do. So this comes to us from David. David, didn't say where he was. Please say where you're from. We like to know where you're writing from. But David, good to hear from you. Yeah, are you an Indycast type of town? Yeah, or nay. So, David, big fan of the podcast and of both Stephen and Ian.

I don't know how you couldn't be both, but either way. I've listened to Stephen's podcast going back to Celebration Rock and Rivals. So we got a real head here. Love both of your writing. But please, please, please, for the love of God, stop talking about Taylor Swift's love life. It's a great Smith song. Otherwise, keep up the excellent work. Cheers, David.

It's not really a question. Well, no, that's okay. We don't always need questions. Sometimes it's good to get feedback. David, by the way, I appreciate you buttering us up, you know, dropping several compliments before hitting us

with the complaint there about Taylor Swift's love life. And again, this comes from sportscast. Sportscast has just become the lightning rod of Indycast. You know, we were talking last week about the NFL and Travis Kelsey,

Taylor Swift, dating. Which, by the way, you know, I don't feel like I was talking about Taylor Swift's love life. I think I was talking about Travis Kelsey's love life. So I think Travis Kelsey's love life in the context of sports cast, because Travis Kelsey is a famous athlete, I think it's totally relevant. But come on, man, we don't talk that much about Taylor Swift's love life. That was like a little tangent that we went on in sports cast. Can we just have a little bit of fun here? Is it okay? Can we just occasionally delve into gossipy stuff? I think

it's fun. Yeah. Well, what, what I'm trying to like see the bigger picture in this because, um, yeah, I also imagine David is having like one of those like, you know, those like things you see in factories like zero days without an accident type things. He's like doing that for like Maddie Healy and or Taylor Swift. But um, which 0 for two today by the way. We're striking out on both of those counts. What I'm wondering though is that there's always been so much talk about like, is Taylor Swift going to play the Super Bowl halftime show and like, you know, You know, she never has. And I'm, like, wondering, like, if she, like, is there any price that she could give the NFL right now to do the halftime show that they would turn down?

Because could you just fucking imagine her doing? I'm going to assume that the Chiefs are going to make the Super Bowl or at least have a good chance. Can you imagine the spectacle of that, like Taylor Swift playing the halftime? They would kick Usher out in a fucking second if, like, Taylor Swift gave them without a fucking now. Show Usher the door. Like, sorry, Usher. sure. I mean, what would be better if they were still dating in that scenario? Yes. See, I'm going to say it'd be better if they like broke up like two weeks before the super poor.

That's also. Yeah, you can't really lose. The breakup would be certainly interesting. But either way, it's like I really think, again, there's a lot of like really funny like, you know, tinfoil hat stuff. Some people saying that Taylor Swift went to the Jets game. So like it crowds out the SEO about her. jet emissions. That's a real thing, by the way. Like, I saw it yesterday. But that's hilarious. I do, I just wonder, like, is the NFL, because, like, they're real, the NFL is totally on board with this. Like, nope, not a distraction.

Come watch our sport. You know, don't pay attention to, you know, to a Tagrio Lova's head getting turned into pudding. Yeah, I, I wonder, like, what, is there any way, is there any price tag that Taylor Swift could put on her halftime show this year, not 20, not 20, but. 2025 this year. Yeah, I mean. That they would turn down.

Yeah, I mean, I think they would, they would do anything. They would give her like an NFL franchise. They just like, like, you want the Carolina Panthers? They're yours. Yeah, I was not say the pan. That was like the example I was giving. It's like, yeah, they don't know what the fuck to do with this team.

Give a, or the Titans. I was going to say, she might want the Titans. It's the hometown team there in Nashville. You know, look, if you write in and you tell us, please stop talking about this, it's the Streisand effect, okay? You will compound. you will add more discourse about what you don't want to hear into the show. So, yes, we just spent a few minutes talking about Travis Kelsey's love life.

It may not be the end. We'll see what happens. Maybe she will be at the Super Bowl. We'll see. I can't wait to find out. We've now reached a part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so this is a big, big, big week for classic style emo.

And by classic, I mean like 2016. I might save some of these ones for future weeks, but, you know, this week we're seeing short fictions putting out a really cool new record that was named out in the week on Stereogum. I was like compared to Japan droids and clap your hands say, yeah, if you want an idea what it sounds like. Bigger, better sons, a band that I, you know, I enjoy their music. Del Paxton. What a time it is to have like top shelf and tiny engines humming again. Because the one I want to talk about is a band called Bewilder. Um, it's an album called From the Irie, I guess. Um, it's interesting because like when you look it up on

Google, people also search for, uh, Jason Isbell, South Eastern and Tools Undertow. Um, sounds nothing like it. Um, they're a band from the UK that I've, uh, you know, that I've followed for quite a few years and they're doing like an American football pinback style fall music thing, which, you know, I would say it would be seasonally appropriate, except that it's the one week in, uh, San Diego in October where it's like 89 degrees because the Santa Ana wins. But, you know, I think the bigger story here is that, you know, besides it being a great album, it's the return of tiny engines. Man, there's been such a void in my life since Tiny Engines shut down in 2019 because even if

their accounting wasn't super up to speed, their A&R was just unbelievable. I mean, we're talking about a label that had like wild pink spirit of the beehive, like mannequin pussy, like Illuminati Hotties at the same time. Yeah, so this, they got a bunch of great records coming out in the near future. This one, I mean, if you're looking for that sort of wistful, twinkly guitars, soft vocals, yeah, this is not necessarily porch music. The first song in this album is called Heavy Sweeter. That should give you an idea of what to expect.

Wow. Love it. I love songs that put sweater in the title and it sounds like sweater, weather music. I mean, you know, Autumn Sweater being the. defining example of that by Yola Tango. I'm going to talk about a band that is at the beginning of their career, they don't have a ton of output out yet,

but I really like what I've heard so far. They're called Prizehorse, and it's a band from Minneapolis where I am, and they describe themselves as an alternative rock band, which I love, and it totally suits them. We're talking really heavy guitars, kind of like a dreamy shoegaze vibe to it.

I'll just say that they sound like hum. It's a good shorthand for this band. They're from the Midwest, so they're allowed to sound like home. They put out a single this week that I like a lot. It's called Your Time. And it's actually the song that got me to listen to their debut EP, which dropped last year. It's called Welder.

And look, they're not redesigning the wheel with this band, but they are doing a sound that I like a lot, and they're doing it very well. And they're from Minneapolis, so Upper Midwest, I'm going to wave the flag for you if you're a good band. So yeah, I don't know if you heard this band. Stereo Gun was talking about them this week. Ian, Prizehorse, I think you'd like this song if you haven't checked it out already.

Yeah, I've not. I've heard Welder last year. And, you know, like, it is super tough to do the hum thing nowadays, like, in a way that's original or, like, notable. Like, I mean, got, so much heavy shoegaze music is, like, swagless deaf tones. But, yeah, I've, you know, a lot of people I try. us are into this band, I think that they've got a great Prizehorse. That's a great band name. Yeah. I'm excited to hear

more from them. All right. Well, Prizehorse, lay down the gauntlet here. We want to hear more music. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped Newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash Indy and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.