Indiecast - A New Wednesday Song + A New Pavement Movie, Plus: Maybe We Don't Hate Sleep Token?

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

Steven and Ian begin with a short Sportscast about the tush push surviving a potential ban in the NFL (0:00). Then they talk about about the terrible commercial performance for Arcade Fire's latest album and where the band goes from here (6:43). They also listen to Sleep Token for the first time... and don't hate it (16:09)? After that, they discuss a disastrous turn for Steven's Fantasy Album Draft team, which forced him to pick a new album (25:12). In happier news, they discuss the great new Wednesday single and what it portends for a potential new album (30:30), and then the new Pavement movie and their feelings about the band (37:31).In Recommendation Corner, Ian goes for the new album by Home Is Where and Steven stumps for the latest from Florry (54:11).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 240 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about Sleep Token, a new Wednesday song, and the new pavement movie. My name is Stephen Hayden and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He voted to keep the tush push. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? To quote Jada Kiss, why is Ratman at an all-time high? I love reading the ESPN article about this vote that I think it came out like hours after the meeting ended. And it just gets into like all of the just nasty, bitter, petty discussions between the owners. Like they're such, they're so catty to each other. I loved reading that. Yeah. For those who don't know, the tush push, the very successful and controversial play that the Philadelphia Eagles runs.

several times a game and has helped them become the dominant force that they are. Some team proposed banning this. It was my team, the Green Bay Packers. It went up for a vote. They needed 24 votes. 75% of owners had to back it. They got 22, which I believe is 68 point something. So still an overwhelming majority of owners voted to get rid of the tush push, but it wasn't

enough. So the Eagles get to keep doing the tush push. I think this is going to get banned eventually. Don't you? I think especially if the Eagles win in the Super Bowl, which is very much on the table, they're going to bring this up again. Because look, the Packers in this case,

which I hate it was the Packers. Like, I hate the Tush Push. I've said this before. I aesthetically, I hate looking at it. It's such a boring play because it's so automatic. Do I have to say that we're doing a sports cast, by the way? I don't think I've announced that we're doing sportscast right now. Sorry about that.

I was so excited to talk about the Tush Push. But I hate the Tush push. I hate the Eagles. I've said this many times. One of my most hated teams in any sport. But it's a respectful hate. I hate them because they're Packer killers going back to 4th and 26. I've hated them since then, early 2000s.

Fred X. Mitchell, haunts my nightmares. But I hated that the Packers brought this up. It's a very hall monitor type behavior. It just looks weak. And the Eagles are coming to Lambo in November, so six months from now. and I assume the Eagles are just going to do the tush push like every other play. It's going to be like 50 tush pushes. Just down the field, Jalen Hertz, getting five yards a play, whatever it is.

But yeah, I don't know. I feel like you just stop the play. You know, don't outlaw it. You got to stop the play. They can run it well. Jalen Hertz can bench press like 600 pounds or whatever, so that's why they can do it. But I think it's going to get banned eventually. I mean, it feels like the league wants this to be banned.

They set up the Packers to be Patsy's. Most owners voted against it. I guess the Eagles brought in Jason Kelsey. Yeah. He gave some persuasive speech and that flipped some of the teams in the Eagles favor. Especially, like as soon as someone gets hurt, you know, like a minor injury, they're going to use that as an excuse to get rid of the play. They want to get rid of the play, I think. Absolutely.

And I think that the, I think they brought in Jason Kelsey. I think it may have backfired because they, I think they were all expecting him to be three inches shorter than he was during his playing days. But I guess he just, you know, like him and Travis Kelsey, just charisma. Yeah. But the thing I hate, I mean, I hate the fact that it's called Tush Push. I hate the fact that it's a boring play. It doesn't work for everyone, though, because we saw that with the bills. Yeah.

But, you know, Josh Allen, more of a rangey tall guy than a someone who could. squat like 1,500 pounds. But I also hate the fact that Jeffrey Lorry described the play as like a teenage boy's wet dream meaning that like a play so good that you have to ban it. I just don't like it aesthetically. I don't like how it stops the game. What I do think the Eagles should do is if that situation does arise in Lambo that they set up for it, but they run Philly Special instead and just they retire the Tush

push right there. That's my dream, but, um, it's a very Philadelphia type move, though. It feels like it's in character with the city. Very stubborn, yeah. It's very stubborn. It's tough. It's kind of annoying, but like, you can't, you can't beat it, you know, it's just like, okay, you just have to tolerate it on some level. So hats off to Philadelphia. I hate your team, but it's a respectful hate. And you own the Packers once again with this. So congratulations. They posted a photo, the Eagles. I don't know if you saw that.

I did not see this. They posted a photo of them doing the tush push against the Packers when this vote went down. So they were rubbing the salt in the wound. But, you know, again, we were set up. The league asked the Packers to do it to, you know, make this proposal. I hated that we did it. I just think it looks weak and embarrassing. Oh, there's a T-shirt now.

Yeah. Push on. I don't like this. Well, you should. should like it though why why don't you like it they're your team if i were the eagles if i was the eagles fan i would love it if i if this was my team i would be like in your face you can't stop this play you know we're the best i would be spiking the football if i i just think that there's so many other cool things about this team and they're just emphasizing the wackest part of it you know like i would yeah

like let's focus on like saquan barclay like busting out 80 yard runs let's talk about zacki Bond, let's talk about the pass rush. I thought you're going to say Sequin Barclay hanging out at Mara Lago and going, golfing with Donald Trump. Yeah, that was a pretty cool move. I did not know about that. That was a huge deal. I don't know if he was at Mara Lago, but I know he went golfing.

I think one of the themes of this episode, once we like start getting, like, I just say, sleep token is I am so divorced from like everything that's happening in pop culture that you could tell me like, yeah, As a matter of fact, Jalen Hertz went there too. He caddied and I'd probably believe you. He didn't go to the White House. Yeah, that was a big deal. Let's do some housekeeping things here quick.

We've been talking about Arcade Fire in recent weeks. They put out a record called Pink Elephant earlier this month. We were talking too about sort of trying to figure out like where is Arcade Fire right now in terms of their career, in terms of their popularity. Like how big is Arcade Fire? And I remember we got an email from somebody saying, I don't know what you're talking about, Arcade Fire, they're a huge band. They're still a big band.

It doesn't matter about Win Butler and allegations of sexual misconduct. They still have a ton of fans. And I was like, I don't know about that. Let's see how this album does. And it's reported this week. And I can't believe this. I still feel like there's got to be a catch here. But as of now, Pink Elephant,

and its debut week of release, did not make the Billboard hot 200. Not the top 10, not the top 50. They didn't even get into the top 200, which means they didn't actually chart with this record in its first week. That sounds impossible. We made the top 10.

I think that is something that we do need to point out. Because I know that every now and again, Billboard changes the metrics. So it's really it can be hard to really Okay when you say we made the top 10 He's not saying that we Indycast made the top 10 Because I was confused there for a second Yeah

We made the top 10 Like no one no he's talking about the record we Arcade Fire's previous record I thought you maybe met Indicast made the Billboard top 10 A man can dream But yeah We made the top 10 I think it was like number 10 maybe

But yeah it I guess we got to like relitigate Like is cancel culture real because I don't know like I don't I think you need like access you need like a subscription to check out the entirety of Billboard's top 200

but like what's number 200 what's 197 is it like you know Metallica black album hanging on for like the 30th straight year or is it I I just need to know like what Arcade Fire is trailing yeah I I'm like

did like the vinyl shipment like get derailed somewhere? Like, did the records not actually show up at the stores? You know, is there some explanation for this? Because it does seem stunning. And look, the record was very poorly reviewed. I don't think the record's very good. But, you know, bad records sell. You know, especially if it's a well-known band and especially if it's in the first week. You know, you would expect that there would be 50,000 people that would buy the record or, you know, they bundle streams together into equivalent units. So it's like just having a number of streams, that gets packaged into sales.

And it's crazy. You mentioned cancel culture. You know, I've said this before. And it's a kind of an obvious observation, although I feel like in the media, we don't always talk about it. The only people that can cancel you are your fans. You know, it's not, it's not music critics. It's not people who hate your music. It's the people who are presumably there to support you. And if they decide that they don't like what you're doing, then you're in real trouble. And, you know, you have Morgan Wallin out here putting out like a 37 song record.

And I'm not even exaggerating. Literally 37 songs on his latest record. Not 38, not 35. No, no, he was painting that masterpiece and he's like, nope, 37 songs. That's exactly what I need on this record. You know, and he got caught on tape saying the N-word and he's had other offenses against decency. People don't care. His fans don't care.

He's putting out 37-song records. He's like the biggest artist in America. Arcade Fire, apparently, their fan base, I think it's more about them just not putting out a good record in a long time. I mean, that has to be, that's a part of it for sure. And yeah, I mean, do you think that the controversy or the story is the main driver of them having, this is like the biggest disaster that I could think of for like a major artist in a while? To me, this is worse than Black Keys canceling their tour because they were playing too big of rooms and charging too much money. To not make the top 200, when you're on SNL,

Yeah, that's the crazy part. What's up with SNL? Like, is there no SNL bump anymore? Like, you can't even get to 175 on your first week. It's crazy to me. I mean, do you think it is because of the sexual misconduct allegations? I mean, I think that's part of it, but to me, it's, this is so extreme that I just can't comprehend it. I'm still waiting for someone to say that there's a mistake.

Yeah. I'm like wondering like why Columbia like this reminds me of that episode of Full House where Jesse goes into the record shop and he can't find his album. But it turns out his family bought like all the copies. Like how come Columbia didn't do that? Like I know that like record labels have done that in the past where they've sent out their employees just buy every copy in the store. This is like historic memory hold album performance.

Like Aaron Nesmith in the fourth quarter on fire. This is I wonder though if it would be more embarrassing. they clocked in at like 194 or whatever rather than missing it entirely. Because like when you miss it entirely, maybe like that like there's like maybe more mystery to it or it's like whoa, maybe they like shut maybe their shadow band or something. But yeah, this is app. I don't know if it's more embarrassing than the Black Keys thing because the Black Keys thing was more public.

Like there were articles, many, many articles written about their failures. Whereas you have to be reading the Billboard Top 200 to know. that arcade fire missed out on it. I feel like the media is maybe a little behind on this. I wonder if it's going to get picked up because it does feel like a significant story. Maybe outlets just don't want to give Billboard publicity or something. I don't really understand it. I mean, you don't have to sell that many copies anymore to even make the top 10.

You know, you could sell like 50,000 copies sometimes is enough to get you into the top 10 and like high up into the top. 10. So, I mean, are we thinking, is it possible that this is sold like less than a thousand copies? Are we in that territory? Like, I'm serious. Like, how few copies do you have to sell to not make the top 200? I think we could be in triple digit territory possibly. Mark Hogan, this is what we need Mark Hogan on. Like, he was the guy who broke the story for Pitchfork. Now we need the follow-up on the cratering of the arcade fire. I will

that's like John Wilkes booth. That's like John Wilkes Booth investigating the Lincoln assassination. I don't know if he would be the shout out to Mark Hogan. I'm just saying you might want to have someone else on that story. But yeah, I don't know, man.

It's crazy. I think funeral tour now. That's the only move left for Arcade Fire. Maybe like a literal funeral tour for their career. but I think you got to do the we're going to play funeral front to back and then we're going to play a bunch of hits after that and just be like I mean the suburbs made me I mean the suburb turns 15 so and that was like more popular so maybe you do that yeah just a funeral suburbs tour you know whatever that that you got to go to just like heaven route here

uh I think that's the only path forward or you break up yeah I because to me this is you're right it hasn't been covered yet but in terms of just the substance of the failure, I think this is the most profound failure that I can think of for a significant act. I mean, we were talking about the biggest drop-offs. Recently, and Kanye West comes to mind a much different story, his falloff. The thing with Kanye is that he's still pretty popular commercially.

Yes. You know, like, he sells well, he streams well, even though he's, I mean, that's a whole other episode, just talking about him. but, you know, arcade fire, like, just crazy, crazy drop-off. I got to tell. Maybe we'll know more by next week. I got to tell you what I've seen on the band's website, because I look for the tour days,

because I do want people to say what the tour shows look like. I know, leading up to the release, there was, like, intimate venues, which, you know, I don't think there was a tour announced. There wasn't a tour announced when the album came out. There were only those pre-release shows that they were doing, but I don't think there was a tour. And it doesn't look that way, but the thing that, pops up and I'm not making this up. It is a pop up that says Arcade Fire, join Arcade Fire's Circle of Trust. Join now or no thanks. Referring to the song on the album called Circle of Trust.

Yeah, no tour dates. I know, man. Brutal. We need an investigative story here. I want to know more about what's this going on here in their camp, man. It's crazy. Another bit of housekeeping here. last week we promised that we would listen to Sleep Token their album even in Arcadia that album's doing really well that that was like a number one record so Sleep Token they are the they are the gallant to Arcade Fire's goofus right now at least commercially speaking this record was slammed by Pitchfork

gave it a 2.3 so we promised that we listened to the record and I actually forgot about this promise because I forget what we talk about on the show instantly after we're done recording. But my friend Derek, who works in radio, I'm going to say he's a captain of the radio industry. He's like a pretty big deal at one of the major radio station chains. And he texted me and he's like, I stand with sleep token. That was a quote. And he said, I'm curious to hear your take. And I'm curious to hear your take too. But I'll just say, you know, I don't want to be reactionary here because it's pretty easy to come in after the fact after you've like seen a review

that just rips an album to shreds to come in and say well it's actually not that bad you know because you're just sort of reacting to someone else's opinion and coming in after the fact and maybe you wouldn't have said that if you had just heard the record by itself and I just want to say you know this album I don't I don't love this album really I don't think it's very good I don't ever imagine myself listening to it for pleasure. But it's not that bad. Can I say that? I'm going to say that.

It's not that bad. I expected to hate it a lot more than I did. And I don't know. I listened to about half of it. And again, it's not great. I don't love it. But it didn't bother me as much as I thought it would. Yeah.

I think listening to the number, you know, we're not popcast. That's a totally different thing. thing but you know listening yeah it's the number one album on billboard i guess we got to listen to it like what's what are they doing that arcade fire isn't um but yeah it was pretty funny because i listened to this album on the same day that i finally heard a teddy swim song because i was in a lift for more than 15 minutes yeah yeah yeah that's what you hear it that teddy swims benson boone espresso tipsy and another teddy swim song that's what the 15 minute lift ride was that's that's lift music

right there man that's lift lift pop yeah so yeah with sleep token I was not expecting him to sound the way they sounded yeah me neither yeah because it was like it reminded me if anything not of like you know

not to be judged in the context of like metal let alone like extreme metal but a lot of the songs remind me of like late 2010's post blonde indie rock or just like that stadium status, like no drums, kind of like wavy sample pack auto tune.

And then, you know, the riffs come in. And no, I don't like it. Am I mad at it? Not really. And I did want to resist the temptation to be reactionary to it. Because, you know, like that review, you know, it got some good bars in. But it did feel a little bit like a punching down in a way. Because like, you know, you don't do those things.

for like most people will try to honestly interact with like jelly roll or morgan wallin or just like pop music that doesn't automatically land in critics list whereas this stuff sounds so it reminded me of if anything of this book i'm reading right now about twitch streamers um shout to atria publishing uh stream big is the name of the book and it just strikes me as this genre of music or style of music or fan base that I have no interaction with whatsoever. Sort of like when you see, yeah, this Twitch streamer has five million followers and they've made a million dollars this past year. It's just like, yep, none of my business.

Yeah, yeah. There's sort of like a hybrid of metal and pop and a little bit of electronic music. Some of the songs reminded me of like third or fourth generation radio head type stuff. Yes. You know, like where they maybe listened to Hale the Thief, and they incorporated some of those atmospherics into their own record. And in a way, it kind of reminds me of, like, not so much musically, but the following of the band and where there are places and music culture, like, where 21 pilots was maybe, five, ten years ago, their band like that, where there's some heaviness maybe to it, but it's also palatable enough. I understand why this band's on the radio. I get why they work in that format.

And one thing I'll say in favor of Sleep Token is that this is a heavy band that has what I think is like a pretty good singer in the band. And one of my pet peeves with metal that is critically acclaimed is that it's all just the Cookie Monster vocal style now. Like that has become the de facto,

okay, if a metal record is going to do well with critics. It's just the barking guy. You got to have a barking guy in your band. And it just turned me off from that genre. I'm just tired of that vocal style. And I hate that there's a certain machismo with that because I feel like when you say, oh, I don't like the barking vocal, that the metal fissionado is going to come back and say, well, it's just because you can't take it. You can't take the extreme nature of it. And you don't hear the nuances of it. And I'll give you that I may not be hearing the nuances of it, because I think if you are a student of a genre, you are going to pick up on things that a more casual listener isn't going to pick up on. But I also think that that's such a narrow lane to be in as a singer.

And when I think of the metal bands and the hard rock bands that I've loved historically, they've all had great singers. Or they've had distinctive singers. Rob Halford, great singer. Ozzy Osbourne, great singer. Bruce Dickinson, great singer. Even someone like David Lee Roth, not technically a great singer, but like a very, he's like a stylist. He's a vocal stylist. And there's always like a melodic element to it that I respond to.

Like heaviness plus melody is, I think, one of the greatest things in music. If you can make that work, I think that's why turnstile is so big, because they're a heavy band with a good singer and they're melodic. And they also have the hardcore bonafides going for them as well. and Sleep token, I think they've got like a good singer there's like a good vocal style here I get why they're popular I just think you know

listen to the record it started to feel like a little monotonous and I think it is I think there is a blandness to it that takes away where you know that prevents me from maybe getting more into the band

but yeah I don't hate it I don't hate it at all and I think there's something there where you could write about this band and not love it, but maybe have more of a sort of empathy for it, maybe. Because I don't think it's just sort of, you know, mindless trash or anything.

I think there is some elements to it that are interesting, even if it doesn't come together completely well. Yeah, and it's not like, I mean, I think there's a, I mean, it is much more like sonically in that 21 pilots, like Imagine Dragons. realm but as for what the purpose they serve i think for their fans it strikes me more as like a tool kind of thing like where it or not not not like mastodon but just like in the same sense of like oh this is like guitar world kind of metal like for the guitar world readers so yeah yeah yeah

not mad at it but it's just yeah not for me yeah and look i like that they're you know i'm always a fan like the big dumb metal band that does well. You know, I think culture needs a band like that. You need one band like that. That is just huge and they're dumb and maybe you don't like them, but it's still reassuring that they're out there. Like there needs to be a nickelback. Yes. At all times. You know, like you want them on that wall, you need them on that wall. You know, as music fans, even if you just want to hate it, you know, it's still nice to have. You know, it's still nice to have that band there. So Sleep Token, if you're that band, congratulations. And we don't hate you. Maybe that can be a blurb. You can put that on here right in Indycast. Not as bad as we thought. One more housekeeping

thing. This is a big, this is bad, I got to say. This is related to our album draft. And you made this analogy, I think it's pretty good, actually, that we have a Jason Tatum situation in our draft where like the Celtics, I felt like I was cruising to a win this quarter. And then it's pointed out, we got to give a shout out to Rusty from Wake Forest.

I love that people are still naming their kids Rusty, by the way. That's such a cool name. I like Rusty. I don't know there's any little Rusty's out there. Anyone out there listening? Did you name your kid Rusty? But I like it.

He pointed out that Lana Del Rey, her record, which was originally planned to come out this week, that that record's been delayed. And I don't think there's a new date that's been announced for it. And Lana Del Rey was the anchor of my team. I don't have Lana Del Rey anymore on my lineup. She's falling down a la Jason Tatum. It's not an Achilles. It's some sort of scheduling snafu.

But I need a new album in the draft. And how are we going to do this? Yeah. Yeah. So last time I picked like a jazz album. And by the way, I think we need to like put odds on what comes first. Jason Tatum's comeback or the Lana Del Rey album. Which ones happen in first?

Well, definitely Lana Del Rey. I don't think it's going to be more than a year. Probably not. Who knows? But I would put the money on Lana Del Rey. Yeah. So I picked the jazz album. I think it was VJIA or something like that that just didn't have enough reviews.

and what happened when we did that is that I gave Steve a couple of options and let him pick. This was back from when I was winning all the time, so I don't remember what the album was. Okay. So I think the same thing here. Okay, so that's a good idea. I'm going to pick three albums, and you can pick which one I'm going to have. I actually feel good about all three of these albums, so I don't think I care which one you pick. but there's maybe one that I would think

would be the best one, which is not going to be the one that you pick for me for obvious reasons. Anyway, the three albums I picked were Heim, their new record. I'll quit. I think that comes out in June. The new Alan Sparhawk record, the one he did would trampled with Turtles. I had no idea what that record sounds like. I don't know if that's like a bluegrass record.

No idea. I know they're all from Duluth, so there's a connection there. And then Blonde Redhead. That record, I think, comes out at the end of June. So which one of those three are you going to pick for me? I definitely not high him. Right. That would be the one.

That would be like a great replacement for Lana Del Rey. But I knew you wouldn't pick that. Yeah. As far as Alan Sparhawk and Trample with Turtles, you see, that one I'm curious about because Trample with Turtles is one of those bands I see on like folk adjacent type festivals. but like never heard their music. Yeah, I don't know what kind of world they're in. Yeah, but I think that Alan Sparhawk brings a lot of, you know, credibility.

Could be interesting. Could you could bring like the quiet trampled with turtle fans who's just been dying to review this record for an indie publication. I'm going to give you a blonde redhead because this is like a reimagining of the album that came out last year. So I'm not exactly sure if that could possibly top what preceded it. But I'll give you a blonde redhead. I didn't know that. I didn't know some BS reimagining.

But the deal is, though, it comes out on June 27th, and I don't know if it's going to get enough reviews for Metacritic. So that's the only... Should I... I mean, should I take something else then? Let's give you Alan's Farahawk. I think that's a fair compromise. All right, I'll take Sparhawk.

I have no idea how that's going to be received. He was actually on my original draft board, and I didn't end up taking him. So I'll take Sparhawk. Yeah, I'm like the soccer team. I'm like the soccer team that sees, like, one guy on the other team just, like, blasted his Achilles and, like, I'll kick the ball out of bounds so that they can readjust, you know?

But, I mean, this hurts me. I don't think he'll do as well as Lana Del Rey would have done. Absolutely not. And I could have give you a blonde redhead And like Then you would be like one of those like soccer teams Again with the soccer metaphors Where like you have played the rest of the game like 10 or 9 on 11

So Alan Sparhawk sounds fair I'm a gamer Yeah and I think we would have had a situation like you said Where if it's a reimagining Which whoever wants those albums Has anyone ever get excited about the reimagining? I saw that there's like a like a Cure remixes album That's been listening to it which

They actually have a history of doing that. That could be pretty cool. But I don't know. The reimagining thing. I feel like that's such a non-starter. Just like making a bonus disc on the proper record. I don't understand the redoing it. Let's talk about the new Wednesday song.

There was a song by the band Wednesday, very critically acclaimed rock band from North Carolina. It's called Elderberry Wine. Not to be confused with the Elton John song, Elderberry Wine, which apparently I'm the only one who's familiar with Don't Shoot the Piano Player, Elton John record from 73. I don't think anyone else noticed. I thought immediately like, oh, did they cover Elton John? But they didn't. It's a new song. They were on the light show with Stephen Colbert, played it there. This is an interesting song because it feels very post-manning fireworks to me. It's a kind of.

country rock song, pretty straight down the line country rock song. Very much in that kind of manning fireworks, I think you could probably hear Waxahatchy in there as well, particularly the song that M.J. Lenderman did with that Waxahatchie right back to it. M.J. Lenderman is on the song and he sings backing vocals on it. And it really makes me feel like Wednesday is maybe recognizing that the goalpost for them have shifted in terms of what they could do commercially because of what MJ Lenderman has done. And I think it's fair to say that M.J. Lenderman is bigger now. Yeah.

He used to be the guitarist for Wednesday, and now Wednesday is the band that M.J. Lenderman sometimes plays in. And it just makes me think about, like, Ratsaw God. When that came out, the first single was Bull Believer, which is this eight-minute song, and like half of that is screaming. Yeah, so not a very sort of palatable song to put out as your first single. I love that they did that, but this new song, Elderberry Wine, it sounds like the kind of song that can get airplay

on like the public radio station in your town. You know, you can slot this song between the Waxie Hatchy song and like a Wilco song, and it's going to make sense. So it just makes me feel like, okay, I think they're aiming for something maybe a little broader here with this new record. Yeah, I mean. Assuming that there is a record, a record has not been announced yet.

So I should just say that. I think we're presuming that an album is coming out very soon. But right now we just know about this song. Yeah, I think we got a couple of bands who are teasing that sort of thing. I know Alex G announced the 2025 tour. And so I'm expecting him to be putting out an album and Wednesday will put out an album. So a lot of our early 2020s favorites are coming back in a big way this year. But yeah, I heard a lot of like recent Waxahatchie in this new song.

You know, it's like a little classier. And the people seem to like it. I mean, I'm in a strange space because, you know, I like Wednesday. I'm rooting for them. But I was never like super into Ratsaw God in the same way that a lot of people are. I mean, when I look back at their covers, whether you would call it an EP or an album, I mean, they did it perfect by the Smashing Pumpkins. This should be a band I love.

And it just hasn't really clicked for me in that way. And I think it's tipping towards, I don't know, maybe a little bit of fatigue. guy have with the rye humorous observational variety of alt country right now i know that's super reductive and just saying that i know i'm stepping towards a third rail um but yeah i think that with uh i think with um my own personal taste i kind of want like more of like a whiskey town smart dumb guy counterbalance you know in the same way that um i liked having a verve to balance out the blur the blur and Pope and Brit Pop. I guess this raises the question of why I don't like

Zach Bryan more because I feel like that's what I'm asking for. That's what you're describing. Well, it's also, Ian, I don't know if you remember me talking about the 37 song Morgan Wallen record that has your name all over it apparently. If you're looking for that

kind of like hymbo country music type stuff. I will say I'm going to choose my words carefully here because the new album has not been announced yet. I'll just say that I don't think that this song is representative of other music that Wednesday might be putting out in the future. And that is an informed opinion. I'll leave it at that. It really feels like they deliberately picked the song that was going to work best as a first single.

But I don't think it's going to be like a wholesale. We're just doing country rock now. I think Wednesday is a band that obviously this crossover with MJ Lenderman, but I think Carly Hartsman is sort of inherently not as much of like a broad, broadly appealing songwriter. I think just she's attracted to subject matter that is darker and gnarlier and sleazier in a lot of ways. And it's what I love about Wednesday. I love her storytelling lyrics and I love that she's, drawn to these very sort of seedy type situations.

And I think that's probably always going to be part of her songwriting. And, you know, like, M.J. Linderman, he has that, like, Tom Petty side to him where he can just write perfect rock songs that you want to hear over and over again. And there's darkness in his songs, too. But I just think, in a way, he's more straightforward than Wednesday is. And that's a great thing about him. And I love the sort of perversity of a lot of Wednesday, music. And I don't think that's going away and I don't want it to go away. But yeah, there's definitely,

I think, an attempt to present them with this song in a way as like a more normal all country band, which they're not, but they are on the song. Yeah, because I think with like Carly has said that like a lot of the songs on Ratsaw God are about like the worst times in her life and they're very difficult for her to sing because you have to re-inhabit that. So yeah, it is a different sort of vibe going on there. I think though that, yeah, I'm excited to see where they take things from here because I think that, you know, they're not purists in the same way that I think like a Waxahatchie record might be or just some other people who work within this all-country framework. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. And also, I'll try to listen to at least five of those 37 Morgan Wallin songs by next year.

Yeah, I don't know. That is my vow. to our audience. Yeah, I, you know, sometimes I'd like to give a gift to myself. And my gift, in this instance, is I'm not going to listen to a 37 song, Morgan Wallen album. Life is too short. And I don't want two hours of whatever life I have left to be taken up listening to a 37 song, Morgan Wallen record. Let's talk about pavement, Ian.

Yes. And I'm curious to talk about pavement. with you because you have an interesting history with this band, especially in your public comments about them, which I find to be sort of curious in a way. But we're talking about pavement because there's a new film that is slowly rolling out across the country. It's called pavements. It's written and directed by a very talented indie filmmaker named Alex Ross Perry. I don't know if you've seen his film, Her Smell with Elizabeth Moss. He has another movie called Listen Up Philip. That's really great. But this movie

Pavements is about the band pavement and it is a very unconventional film in that it's a hybrid of documentary. You know, you see Pavement getting ready for their recent world tour and there's also archival footage of

pavement back in the 90s. It's also a parody of like rock biopics. So you have Joe Keri from Stranger Things playing Stephen Malcolmis and you've got like Tim Hidecker playing I think he's Jared Cosloy in the movie. And then Jason Schwartzeman plays Chris Lombardi,

the two heads of Maddador Records. And then there's also a jukebox musical that they actually staged using pavement songs in the same way that they turned Green Day's catalog into a musical, American Idiot. Is it the whole Green Day catalog or is it just that album? That's a great question.

I think it's mainly just that album. They might do a showtune version of, you know, when I come around, or brain stew or something. So it's a hybrid of all these things, and it's a movie that, I think one of the strengths of it is that it feels like listening to Pavement

when you're watching it. Because, you know, Pavement sometimes has been described as a band about other bands. And I think this film is a rock movie about other rock movies. And you can see, like with the Joe Kiri stuff, for instance,

because they show him in the bio, pick, but they also have this like fake behind the scene footage where Joe Keri is playing this sort of like very self-involved method type actor, you know, trying to emulate Stephen Malcolmus. And it feels like a direct commentary

on the Timothy Chalamee stuff with the Bob Dylan movie. You know, like how people made such a big deal. I could close my eyes and I thought Bob Dylan was singing. You know, like that was a whole part of that Oscar campaign. And this movie, I think, has taken some shots at that.

And it's funny. In the stage musical, the jukebox musical is funny. They actually use actors that have been in real jukebox musicals in that part of the movie. And actually some of those pavement songs actually sound really good as show tunes, like, shockingly. Like, Starlings of the Slipstream. Like, there's a melody at the end of the movie where they're doing all these songs. And it works way better than you would expect. And then you have the documentary aspect of it.

I've seen this movie three times because I just wrote a big column about pavement and digging deep into the catalog. I wrote about my 40 favorite pavement songs. I want to talk to you about pavement in a minute, but I'm curious, because I sent you a screener of the movie. Did you watch it? I watched it. And even though in the two hours or so that the movie elapsed, I could have listened to the entire Morgan Wallen album. Right, exactly. Probably.

Well, yeah, I don't know how long it is. I think it's two hours. Yeah, I gave you a choice. I said, you can watch this pavement movie, or you can listen to the 37 song, Morgan Wallen record. You chose the pavement movie. I chose the pavement movie, yeah. Right.

So did you like it? So, yeah, with the pavements, I have to be very specific. You know, pavements is a movie about the band pavement. It's a movie about other musical biopics. But what this movie really about to me, is about the underlying tension that occurs when you have one guy in the band that's 10,000 times better looking

than the other guys and just how that plays out because I think that there's this mention of one of the guys says it's like a four against one sort of dynamic with the band the one being Stephen Malchmus and just you could tell that like Stephen Malchmus deals with other people in the band

the press, the public so much differently than the other guys and I think he can kind of get away with it just because he's a tall, charming, charismatic guy, whereas the other guys look like they could be in guided by voices. I say that complimentary. Yeah, the movie, like, look, my relationship with payment is complicated. Like, I've been, like, my public persona regarding payment has cost me real money. Like, I got a kill fee to not write about payment, but that's another story for another time. Yeah, and... Well, because you take shots at Payment. Yeah, I take

shots at pavement and look they were like maybe the first indie band like a real deal indie band that I got became aware of uh you know I read Rolling Stone front to back back in the 90s so you know I saw the Cricket Rain Cricket Rain review I also saw the Wowy Zowie one which I think that one still stinks for them I that's like one of my favorite parts of the movie where they do the dramatization of Matador receiving the masters for Wowie Zowie. But yeah I went to a pavement concert when I was like 15 my older brother took me he had the pavement is rad blue t-shirt from that era loved bright in the corners in 11th grade and I think I had like a reverse maturation process because like in 11th or 12th grade I loved blur I loved pulp

I loved pavement and then I got into emo and I grew out of that stuff uh it was a yeah it's like kind of the uh Benjamin button style uh music critic trajectory but you know I Look, Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain is great. When I looked at your list, I was wondering where you ranked my favorite songs from that album. You know, aside from Gold Sounds, I would say, stop breathing, elevate me later. And it's like, wait, all these songs are great. This whole album is great. And, you know, Bright in the Corners actually kind of irritates me now.

Like, Stereo, I will just, I kind of hate that song. But, yeah, I took some shots at Stereo in my column because one of the things I was talking about was, You know, this rivalry supposedly with smashing pumpkins and Stone Temple Pilots because of the song Ranged Live where Stephen Malcolm was take shots at them. And to me, the only reason why people talk about smashing pumpkins and pavement together is because of that song. Like if that song didn't exist, they would not have been perceived, I think, as rivals. And to me, the band that they actually had a rivalry with that people don't talk about is Weezer. Because Weezer, to me, took what pavement did, and they made it way broader. And, like, you listen to certain Weasor songs.

Sweater song. That's a pavement riff. That, I mean, El Scorcho is such a pavement rip-off. Like, there's so many songs that Weezer does that are kind of riffing, I feel, like, on pavement songs. And it's hilarious to me that Rivers Cuomo wrote that song, Heart Songs, on the Red album. I don't know if you know that song.

It's just a stupid song about, like, all. these songs that he grew up listening to and he he mentions like literally like 25 people in this song he's talking about like gordon lightfoot and eddie rabbit and nirvana and does not mention slanted and enchanted and it's like dude you should be watching you should be washing stephen malchmus's car for how much you stole from slanted and enchanted but getting back to stereo to me that was almost like weezer that was almost like pavement doing weezer a little bit because that riff kind of sounds like Pinkerton songs to me. And like the whole like back check and cuz part is so that's like more like a Weezer joke.

It is. That is like kind of El Scorjo. Right. Totally. Or like the Getty Lee thing. It's like the Simpsons doing family guy jokes to me. And like it shouldn't go that way. It should be family guy stealing from the Simpsons.

Not the Simpsons to the family guy. But, you know, going back to the movie for a second, one of my favorite parts of the movie is they're talking about pavement's performance at Lollapalooza in 95. There was this famous show they played in West Virginia where people started throwing mud at them. And at one point, Stephen Malkmusk gets hit in the chest with a rock and then they leave the stage and there was like a riot that started.

And they show the actual footage of the band backstage and they're just sort of laughing about it. And then they juxtaposed that with like a scene from the biopic. where Stephen Nukmus and Scott Canberg, spiral stairs, who's sort of like the second in command and pavement, where they're having this fight. And Scott Canberrae basically says, you know, you're holding us back

because you have this, I don't care attitude. And Nalcmus is going back, like, well, I never expected us to ever sell any record. So to me, it's all gravy. And I think in the film, the point is to show, like, how biopics will distort reality, because there's this sort of formula to a biopic where you have to have the people fighting

and you have to have the intra-band drama and juxtaposing it with like what actually happened which was like a lot less dramatic they're just hanging out backstage having a good time but I also think that that fake scene says a lot about pavement in ways that like the documentary footage which is true doesn't talk about

because I actually think that that's probably an accurate depiction of their dynamic I mean you talked about Malchmus being the most important guy in the band because he's like this good looking charming guy. He's also the most talented songwriter. I mean, he's a great songwriter. And he just dominated the band creatively. And he it is a situation like where he can sort of decide if pavement exists or not. And it's like, it's a difference between like the other guys in the band like working in a bar. Like Mark Ibald is like a bartender in his regular life or going on tour and playing the world and making a lot of money.

So that is an interesting dynamic in that band. And, and, and, And Malcolm's is just an interesting character anyway, because he does feel like emotionally sort of inscrutable in a lot of ways. Like, I don't know. Have you ever interviewed him? I've never interviewed him, no. But I do think it was telling that Sonic Youth, or Kim Gordon specifically said, yeah, we took him on tour and they were like kind of snobby to us. So like, imagine being like snobby to Sonic Youth. And I don't think it's snobbiness.

I think it's just sort of like a remove. a little bit. It's hard to describe because when I've interviewed him, I've interviewed him twice. He was a perfectly affable guy friendly and down to talk. I mean, there's a running joke with Malcolm is that if you really want to get him to talk, talk to him about fantasy sports. Because that's what he wants to talk about. He's just not someone who's going to give you anything about his own music. Like he's not really, at least not publicly.

He's not necessarily going to be introspective in that way. although there have been good profiles written about him like Chuck Klosterman wrote one for GQ in 2010 which is great. There's like some really great malchmus quotes in there. Yeah, perfect match of writer and subject on that one. Yeah, that's like one of the best things I think are written about them in terms of like a profile.

But I don't know. The other thing in my column that I wrote a lot about was this perception of like pavement as a band that doesn't try that's the most dominant talking point with pavement. Like slacker literally means a person who doesn't put forth a lot of effort. So that's always been the thing with them. And listening to their records, you know, first of all, I think if you're a great band, you're trying.

You know, it's so easy to be a bad band. If you're actually making great records, I think that there is a lot of effort that goes into play. that they're a band that doesn't show their effort, you know, in the same way that maybe like a Billy Corrigan does, for instance. But I think they're definitely trying. And I would also say that, like, the narrative about them, like, kind of being like a, you know, sort of layabout band is so phony. Like, those records rock, you know? And the reason why they endured, I think, is that there's something about pavement where, like, in the 90s, there were things that they

did that maybe seemed chaotic or didn't make a lot of sense, like Wauwi's Zawi, for instance, was not reviewed particularly well. A lot of critics hated that record, and they really thought that, you know, they were almost like intentionally tanking their career with that record because it came after Cricket Rain, Cricket Rain did fairly well commercially. And you listen to that record now, and you're like, God, there's so many jams on this album. Like, how could you hate this record? And now it's considered, like, maybe their best record.

I just think there's so many things about Pavement that, like, as you get further away from them, they just seem like a classic rock band. And like when I was listening to them, I just kept thinking of like CCR. You know, they have that kind of vibe to me where it's like, these are just like good melodic songs that have like a shagginess to them, a looseness that I really find appealing. And like they sound more like a 70s band in a weird way than they do like a 90s band to me. And that's what I love about them. And it was so fun digging into their catalog for that column. Yeah, I think you make a good point in that range life and, you know, many other songs on, you know, Crooked Rain specifically. I mean, I just, I think of them selfishly as a Virginia

band because both Steve Malchamus and I went to the University of Virginia. And David Berman. Yeah. And Bob Nassadivich went there too. Yeah, but Steve Malchmus worked at the cool college radio station, WTJU, whereas I was at WNRN playing Stained and White Stripes and Jimmy E World Songs. So, yeah, Goofus and Gallant right there. But yeah, but they're really from Stockton. And I do think that I did appreciate how the movie brought out the Stockton in them. And that, yeah, it's like almost like you mentioned this like they're kind of like all country in some ways. Like you mentioned like chugling.

And I do think you hear a lot of pavement in some of the bands that are doing more alt country leaning indie nowadays. Oh, totally. Yeah. Like, range life, if you want to talk about Alt Country, like someone like MJ Lenderman is way more like Range Life than Uncle Tupelo.

Absolutely. And that, like Father to a Sister of Thought, like that's another one, those pretty stoner country songs that Malchus was doing in the mid-90s. They're like these accidental Alt-Country touchstones.

And, you know, I had that thing earlier I said about them being a band, about other bands there's that aspect of pavement where you know he's talked about range life being like an eagle's song

even though he hates the Eagles and that duality of like loving classic rock and making fun of it a little bit which is a very 90s thing to do but I think now when you listen to it

it just feels like classic rock I think any kind of like ironic patina around them I don't know if that's there for people just getting into pavement now. You know, I think it's there for people in the 90s, and I think that there are people that have a strong sort of anti-feeling about pavement for that reason. But I feel like now, like if you're, if you're just listening, if you're kind of going

into the rock canon and you are 16, 17 years old and you listen to pavement, I think that they are kind of closer to like a CCR than they would be, you know, I don't know, like a Weezer or any kind of other 90s band. There's just something very cozy about their music, I think, where, yeah, you want to play it on the back porch. You want to play on the patio, man, and just rock out the pavement. I did that a lot in the last month, and let me tell you something, highly recommended. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? So this is a pretty alt-country-heavy episode where we talked about pavement and their influence,

and we talked about Wednesday. And I'm going to talk about. about an album that's like kind of alt country, but not really. It's a band called Home is Where, which we surely talked about numerous times on this episode. They have a new album out called Hunting Season. It's their third. And they talked about how they listened to a lot of like Flying Burrito Brothers leading up to this, a lot of Bob Dylan. That's always been a huge touchdown for them, even though they are known predominantly as an emo band. Their first and two albums are definitely emo. And this one took a lot longer. from to click with me than their previous ones.

And in a weird way, hearing it in the context of so many other recent country influence indie rock show me that what makes this sound special and that it sounds nothing sounds anything like this. It really does sound like cap and jazz doing Alt Country. And there's a concept behind the record as well about how it is thematically about 13 Elvis impersonators getting into a science. simultaneous car crash. It's not about that specifically, but it just takes a lot of that. I would describe it as floor-to-man imagery of like absurdity and, you know, cheap drugs, truckers,

and writes about it in a very surrealist sort of way. The way I kind of think of it is that MJ Lenderman will say, you know, like Jackass is funny, like the world is round. Homers Ware is more of the band like participating in Jackass. Like they're the ones like doing the crazy stunts and putting themselves in harm's way and it sounds like. that. So yeah, not for everyone this band. It's definitely a grower, but I'm in. It took me a while, but I'm in on this record. Yeah, I like this record too, and I'm a fan of Homesware generally, and you know, they're definitely a band that gives you a meal every time, even when the record might only be 20 minutes long. You know, they're going to give you meaty morsels of songs,

a lot to chew on, and certainly like the Dylan influence on this record speaks to me. And I think that's always been there with this band, but it's been a little bit more. embedded. I would say like this kind of reminds me of like a folk punk record. I mean, it feels like they've moved into that lane a little bit here. And that can be a very erratic genre for me. There's some folk punk I like. There's a lot I don't like at all. But I like what Holmes Ware is doing. And again, I think that they just make really interesting records from a conceptual point of view. Like you said, it's very unique. they're in their own lane, even if they're touching on signifiers of, you know, 60s and 70s

country rock that are in vogue at the moment. They're not being utilized the way Holmes Ware does it on this record. So very cool record. I want to talk about a band called Flory. Flory that's F-L-O-R-R-Y, if you want to look them up on your streaming platform of choice. This is a band from Philadelphia. They came on my radar a few years ago when they put out a record called The Holy Bible. and it jumped out to me because it really felt like a departure from like a lot of sort of singer-songwriter-oriented records of the early 2020s, which tend to be kind of quiet and very orchestrated, very tasteful sounding.

And Flore was a band that just came out and it sounded like just like a down-home early 70s rock record or like a bootleg version maybe of that. Like, not Exxon on Main Street exactly, but like the songs where the stones are too drunk to perform and they don't make the record, like the outtakes from that in the south of France. Like, that was Florey's aesthetic. And I interviewed Francie, the singer-songwriter in this band this week. You can read about it on Up Rocks. And she's a big fan of like Rolling Thunder era Bob Dylan, obviously likes Neil Young, especially like the ditch era, Neil Young records of the early and mid-70s. we also talked about the Rolling Stones. She shouted out a live record from 1978, live in Texas, that I'm also a fan of.

That's very sloppy and loud and great. And that just sums up this band. I mean, they have like a certain swagger to them that I think a lot of bands don't have. And, you know, they're part of that solar system of artists that I'm obviously really into. Like they're adjacent to Wednesday and MJ Lenderman. Another band that I like called Fust is on the same record. label, Dear Life Records. But Florey

is definitely their own thing. They're just a lot louder and drunker and sloppier and it just has a great vibe that you don't get a lot in indie rock these days. It's a very sober genre, I feel like, at the moment. So Florey, I appreciate coming in and make things a little

rowdy again. And again, the album is called Sounds Like. That sounds like and it has like an ellipsies after it. Really good band, really good record. Check it out. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter.

You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.