Indiecast - A State Of Music Criticism Address + New Music By Billy Woods And Alien Boy

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

Steven and Ian open today with a quick TV-cast on the latest episode of The Rehearsal, which is some of the finest Evanescence-related content you will ever see. (0:13) (They also pivot briefly to a Movie-cast about Sinners.) (10:20) From there, they update the Fantasy Album Draft to talk about the great new album by Billy Woods, Golliwog, which is wowing critics. (14:00) They also briefly touch on the new Arcade Fire record, which Ian has not heard yet so the longer conversation is tabled for next week. (18:56) Then they pivot to a talk about two inside-baseball music criticism topics — a recent IG post by the band Tennis railing against the treatment of their records from critics, (26:31) and Steven's interview this week with top YouTube music critic Anthony Fantano. (40:13)In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks about aughts-era band The Ponys upon the passing of drummer Nathan Jerde, and Steven stumps for the Portland band Alien Boy. (50:57)New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 238 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks' indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast on the show we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about the state of music criticism. Oh my God, you know the people are waiting for that. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. I wonder if he knew that Sully Sullenberger is an F&Fsons fan. Ian Cohen, Ian, who are you?

What I didn't realize is that Sully, Solemberger was from Texas and not Boston. I didn't know they let you call yourself Sully if you're not from Boston. That's like finding out like John Fogarty's not actually from the bayou. Also, if he's going to be into like a new metal band from that era, why not the one with Sully as the lead singer? Like does Sully Sullenberger mess with Godsmack? I mean, I don't know.

I would love to know that. Well, I mean, apparently he's into a lot of music. He's also into Cheryl Crow, Soak Up the Sun. Yes. Which for me is outside the golden era of Cheryl Crowe. I would say like those first three records, the Tuesday night music club, the self-title record,

and then the Globe Sessions. That's Prime. Cheryl Crowe. Once again to the Come On, come-on, come-on era, a little weaker, but I appreciate Sully digging in deep. I think Soak Up the Sun is the most influential,

like one of the most influential songs of that era. Like so much indie music sounds exactly like it. Yeah, I suppose. I mean, that's definitely on the pop your side of what she does. I mean, I feel like if it makes you happy is a big one. Also, yeah. Too. That's her best song.

That's her leading into like the Rolling Stones side of what she does. And I'm a big fan of Cheryl growing down that path. I was not anticipating a Cheryl Crow tangent here. Yeah. I was a little surprised by that. But for those. don't know, we're referencing the latest episode of the rehearsal. We're going to do a quick TV cast here at the top of the show because, you know, I feel like we did this once. We did

like power rankings for the popular forms of art, you know, and music obviously is number one for us. I think cinema right now is that number two, like for me anyway. I saw sinners last week with my son. First time that we saw a movie where there was a kundalinga scene together. So that was a historic moment for me and the 12-year-old. But great movie. So cinema's number two. TV for me is a distant three.

And that might be a controversial choice because I know a lot of people love their shows. They love their prestige HBO Max content. I'm at a point now, and this is a me problem, I guess. but I can't muster up the enthusiasm usually to watch beyond the first episode of any show. Like, I'll watch the first episode, and I'm like, eh, not really feeling this. The exception is Nathan Fielder. The Nathan Fielder shows the rehearsal, the curse, love what he does. Obviously, Nathan for you, that's a ways ago now.

He's the one guy, though, that I think, and this is true in movies too, or certainly, in television, you watch one of his things, you have no idea where it's going to go. Yeah. You have no clue where you're going to end up at the end. It is the least predictable, least formulaic show I could think of. You know, because like some shows they try to be shocking, you know, like the White Lotus. You know, you can have like an incest scene or something like that. It's like, ooh, you know.

Spoiler. Yeah. Is that a spoiler at this point? I feel like if you care about that show, you've probably seen that. I haven't even seen the show. I just know there was an incest scene because people don't shut up about that show in social media. Anyway, I don't want to get into White Lotus Talk. I get in trouble when I start making fun of that show.

But the latest episode of the rehearsal, which if you haven't seen this season yet, the premise is that Nathan Fielder is trying to prevent plane crashes because there's been like a rash of aerial accidents. And this is like a real thing. It's crazy how he was on top of this because, you know, we had those incidents earlier this year. I feel like there was that stretch where it felt like there was a plane crash every other day. Do you remember that? Absolutely.

Yeah. It's just wild how much like it's like a real thing. And of course, you know, there's the, well, is it real? Like how much is real in this show? Like how much it's just unreal television. There's like five times each episode where. my jaw just drops. Like, I cannot believe someone thought of this, but also was able to pull it off.

Yeah, I mean, this latest episode where he's talking about Sully Sullenberger, which if you remember, he was the guy who landed that plane in the Hudson River after, I think a bird flew into the engine. Yeah, it's like a flock of birds. And they made the movie about him, starring Tom Hanks. But the movie left out, because I saw it. Did you see that movie, that Clint Eastwood movie, about Sully, called Sully? I did not, but the thing that really bothered me about this episode is that they read from the Sully book and, you know, is me writing a book. I'm like, how did he write like a 400-word book? Well, he didn't write it.

I'm sure he had a ghostwriter. I'm sure he was just talking to a ghostwriter. But like Nathan Fielder, he goes into Sully Sullenberger's book because it fits with the premise. You know, this is a guy who famously averted a plane crash. and he digs out this section in the book where he starts talking about his iPod all the time and all these musical artists that he's talking about and one of the artists that he loves is Evanescence

the early 2000s new metal band and this is an incredible scene in this episode and it is the best music journalism I'm going to say of the year I don't think anyone's going to top this no actual music journalist is going to top this for revelations There's a scene in the show where they talk about how in real life, Sully, there was a moment in the cockpit where it was 23 seconds of silence.

Because they have the transcript of what was going on in the cockpit. And people were trying to talk to Sully and no one could talk to him. He wasn't saying anything back to them. And Nathan Fielder figured out that 23 seconds is also the length of the chorus. And back to the life. Bring me to life. I also get that chorus wrong. I always say back to the life.

I always say bring me back to life. Back to the life is a spoon song. By the way, check out my spoon. Check out my spoon album rankings on Up Rock. Oh, see, I messed up the title on purpose just to set you up. Bring me to Life. Yes. It's the same length of the chorus as the moment of silence in the cockpit.

And, you know, he deduces in the show that Sully busted out the iPod and listened to this chorus in order to sort of, center him and give him the wherewithal to land the plane, which probably isn't true. But the fact that he figured out that the chorus was as long as this moment of silence, brilliant television, brilliant music journalism. I just, I love this show so much. Yeah, I cannot get enough of it. It is just so, I mean, like I like gemstones as well, but that was like, you know,

pretty straight down the middle, like, fun. That show was, like, funny. And, you know, the rehearsal is funny. But it's just when you see some of the stages they set up and you think about like, did they really get someone to like do that acting scene for like four months and pay someone, just mind boggling. Like I just, I feel pretty jaded about a lot of, you know, TV or movies because I know how the sausage is made.

I know the mechanics. I know how things work. I can predict things from a mile away. The rehearsal just stuns me. I cannot believe that it is being. made. And we're not even talking about the one from the last week where they make up Paramount Germany.

That one was even crazier. Yeah, where he is taking shots at Paramount Plus for taking one of the episodes of Nathan for you off the service because it was accused of anti-Semitism. I think there was like some, yeah, I forget the exact, I haven't seen the episode that they'd taken off. So I can't speak to it. I think there's like some, maybe some like Nazi paraphernalia. Yeah, there's some like Nazi iconography. It's like they're trying to have this, I think this outdoorware company like donate to like anti-Nazi. It's it's pretty tricky. So I would recommend, if you could find that, uh, to watch it. But it is just wild television. Yeah. And the

original episode, I think, was meant to sort of. critique. It's not an anti-Semitic episode. No, not at all. And it was taken off the service. And he devotes this episode basically to taking shots at the company that's paying for this episode. I mean, it's amazing. It is sort of like

if a guy had an internet show, but he had the budget of HBO. Yes. And had the reach of it. But also had the freedom of someone who just would do a show on YouTube or a podcast. That's what he's. able to do. It is really amazing. It is like

a magic trick. Watching that show. Because you're just trying to figure out, like, how is he doing this? And then also, just the show itself is really funny and entertaining and kind of moving at times, too, in a weird way. So, incredible show. Love it. It is

bringing up the collective ranking of TV up for me. Still a distant third. I'm excited about movies. I have not been excited about movies in a while. There were a lot of good trailers before sinners because you saw sinners. I did see sinners yeah and did you like it um I liked it a bit I mean I liked it I thought it was very impressive in its reach I also thought that the big um scene in the middle where it ties together like everything from blues to twerking that to me looked

like a Pepsi commercial I did not like that part of it yeah I've heard people complain about that that didn't bother me I think you alluded to that before I saw it it's like oh there's a big music scene in the middle of the movie. And I've seen some think pieces about it, which I have not read and probably will not read. No disrespect. I just want to enjoy the movie. Sometimes you got to just, I guess this is going to tie into our later conversation. I think sometimes as a critic, it's good to just watch things and not think about them.

Like occasionally, like allow yourself to not be analytical for once. And I think I was like, that was sinners. I was just like, this is a kick-ass vampire movie. It actually made me want to rewatch from Dust Till Dawn. Oh, yeah. I've seen that. I'm not. I don't go deep on the Tarantino catalog.

That's a, I'm guessing that was an influence because there's some shades of from dust till dawn in centers for sure. Yeah. I mean, I'm more stoked. You're talking about all these trailers for great movies. I'm pretty stoked to see Fight or Flight, you know, where Josh Hartnett and a terrible blonde die job just beats people's ass on a plane. I think that's like a whole genre of movies now, like bullet train, fight or flight. where yeah, just people just, everything's either action or horror now.

Yeah, my son isn't into horror movies, and so I'm kind of excited to see horror movies in the theater. It's really one of the best types of movies to see in a theater. So there's that movie, Weapons. I don't know if you saw a trailer for that, about the kids who, like, leave their house at 2 a.m. They just magically disappear. I saw, like, a brief one.

That was like a 15-second preview I saw. That looks good, and there's another movie called Him, which is like a, it's about a quarterback. Oh. Trying to make it in the NFL, but it looks like it's like a psychological horror spin on that. It's executive produced by Jordan Peel. Looks good. I thought the trailer was good. Anyway, we kind of went into movie cast here very briefly.

We should get out of that. Yeah, where is that on the cast rankings compared to TV cast and sports cast? Well, sports cast is number one. Yes, always. TV cast is problematic because I feel like I just end up complaining about shows. And I don't want to do it. Like the White Lotus people. I made one joke about White Lotus on Twitter because I was very conscious about not crapping on this show that people love.

I didn't want to be that guy. I made one comment about it after the show was done because they showed a scene, like a pivotal scene from the last episode. the season. That just looks so stupid. And I was like, this show looks so stupid. And I got all these angry comments from people. It's like, oh yeah, that's the best way to judge a show. Like, we're on Twitter here. Okay, this is not the bastion of thoughtful commentary. We can just shoot our mouths off here sometimes. You know, the site's not even going to exist in 15 minutes, you know, let's relax. Yeah. We will touch on people shooting their mouths off on social media platforms as if you. We are teasing so much good shit on this episode. It all, it all, it

comes together. It's like an episode of the rehearsal. You know, we plant little morsels in the first five minutes and they pay off at the end. Let's talk about our fantasy album draft here. We were talking last week about Jenny Vaugh and Minal Actress, too, of the records

on my team. There were no medic critic scores yet. You looked this up. It looks like Mato Actress is at 81. Yeah, big time drop. Pitchfork with a surprisingly mild review of that album. Is that in the sevens? It was like a 7-1, you know?

It's like, I guess, with YHW nail gun, there's like, you know, New York's not a big enough town for two noise bands. I don't know. But yeah, I feel like that was like, that is so everything that they typically like. I like the record, but I was like very, very surprised, pleasantly surprised because now I actually have a fighting chance. I'm like the Knicks clawing my way back into this thing. Well, so I have an 81 for metal actress.

Jenny Ball has an 86, so I'm very happy with that. And I'm happy with the 81, but model actress. I actually had some second thoughts about that. But it's above 80, so I'm happy. You have Billy Woods coming out today. Gali Wog is the name of the record. Have you heard that record, by the way? Yeah, it's awesome.

I don't love it more than Naps, which was my favorite album of 2023 and one of my favorites in that came. But this one's really good. I love Billy Woods. Is he officially the king of, like, independent, critically acclaimed rap at the moment? Is Billy Woods the man? Is he like taking over like the Danny Brown slot? Yeah, I think so. I mean, Danny Brown was on the last year zero.

Such a great song. But yeah, this one really kind of everything comes home to Roos. Like the previous album was like him and Kenny Siegel, which is always like a great combination. But this one, you know, has alchemist beats. It's got LP on it. It's got Alucid, the guy from, you know, his partner in Arm and Hammer. So it feels like more of an event, but it's also like more dense and unpredictable. It's a more challenging listen than maps, but yeah, it's great.

Like he's very, very singular. I maybe Mike is still the king of like kids, like, you know, for people who are like 10 years younger. But yeah, Billy Woods is always guaranteed, you know, at least now to be higher up. Like I felt very good about this pick. Even though he's released a lot of albums that are, you know, more likely to be in the 80, 82, just because they are very challenging. I think he's reached a point where people are willing to meet him more on his own terms. And that is shown right now because he's got a 91. Yeah.

And I was looking, there's not that many reviews published yet, which might be a danger sign for you. But I actually think the score could go higher because I think so too. All the publications are from Europe. And the Europeans reviewing rap records, I'm always just tickled by that. But, you know, like the skinny, the skinny loves Billy Woods. They gave it like a 100 on Metacritic right now. So it just makes me think that like the American outlets will like it at least as much as like the Brits and the Irish and Scots and all those people. So I think you could get to like 93, 94 here.

I would not be surprised, yeah, because I think that... You're going to need it. You're going to need it. DJ Katsy, man. That one three-star Rolling Stone review, I didn't know Rolling Stone still did those reviews. It's like, why would you review DJ Katsy if you're going to only give it three stars, man? And I would think that would be at least a three and a half from Rolling Stone. They don't really pan stuff.

They haven't done that in a long time. Man. Tragic. Rolling Stone coming out of the shadows. to play heel here for DJ Katsi. So we're coming to the, actually, I think my whole team, oh no, I have Lana Del Rey coming. Yes, you do.

So I got little Sibs and Caliuchess. So I feel like all of my people are in the 80s. Again, I went with like veterans. I have like Tune Dave from TV on the radio. I have model actress Jenny Ball and I have William Tyler. And the William Tyler record's done really well. So that's just been my strategy lately I'm just getting, I'm like the Philadelphia Eagles,

I'm just drafting from like Georgia and Alabama. You know, like that's their strategy for drafting. I'm just going with like proven commodities that I feel like are going to get in the 80s. Landa Del Rey might be a little bit of a wild card, but I feel like she'll at least get in the mid-80s. I feel pretty confident about it. She's pretty bulletproof at this point.

And she's got a shot at the 90s. And if she gets into the 90s, it's game over. I think I'm going to win this draft. But we'll see what happens. But Billy Woods doing very well, money in the bank. You know, who is not doing well in Metacritic right now, Ian, is Arcade Fire. 55 Metacritic score right now for their latest record, Pink Elephant. We're not going to talk about this record this week, even though it's out today.

I reviewed this record for Up Rocks. It went up on Thursday so you can read it next. You can find out what I think, or you can wait for the podcast next week. We're going to wait because, Ian, you're writing about the album. Can we say who you're writing it for, or do we want to do you have? Don't say who I'm writing it for, but just know that I have not gotten in advance for it. So do the math. Right.

And it's fair to say that your review will influence the Metacritic score, although I wonder if it's going to go lower. 55 is a terrible score. Yeah, that's like really low. You got to like, that is really hard. That's like Latter Day Lil Wayne album type stuff. Like nobody gets that. Or like Katie Perry or just like some pop star you weren't aware was like putting out new music. But yeah, this has been such a bizarre rollout, like an anti-rollout.

Like I'm not going to call it a media blackout because they're going to be on SNL this weekend, which is just wild to me. But I'm also like refreshing Rolling Stone's website every 30 minutes. just waiting for that, like, really earnest Will Butler, with Butler interview that they're expecting, I'm expecting to happen. You think that's going to happen? You think he's going to do an interview with, I don't think,

I don't think he's going to do one. Yeah. Um, and, or if he is going to do it, it would be a TV thing. It would be like, he's going to be on Jimmy Fallon and there is,

because I think on television, obviously, because they're on SNL, like, you can, you can exist in a way that you don't have to acknowledge, the accusations against the band. My sense is that the accusations against

Arcade Fire stayed an internet thing. It didn't feel like they broke through to the public. I don't know if people on television when they talk about this record if they're going to bring that up.

It feels like they haven't. I mean, I actually wrote about this in my column, and I won't say what I think about the record, but I did write about the SNL thing. Because I do think it's interesting. It may be a little weird that Arcade Fire is being featured this way because, you know, they were also on the 50th anniversary concert, which in a way I get more than having them

on the actual show because it feels like SNL, they use that music guest spot to get relevancy points from the public. Or people who can act in the skits, too. Well, that, but I feel like it's a way for them to show that we're still hip. Yeah. You know, so we're going to have artists that are relevant to the public. And clearly they don't care about, like, accusations against people. Like Morgan Wallin was on recently and, like, Lizzo was on recently.

But, like, Morgan Wallen is, you know, he's a jerk and he makes terrible music, but he's hugely popular. And he's in the prime of his career. I feel like Arcade Fire, again, not tipping my hand on what I think about the record, I feel like even like their most devoted fans would agree that they're like 15 years past their prime. Yeah. Maybe a dozen if you love Reflector, but like it's been a while. So it's a little odd to me that they would be on the show. It's not like Paul Simon or like McCartney who are grandfathered in, so to speak, to the show.

It doesn't really matter like what they do. on their latest record, but I don't know, it's a little odd. It'd be like if Lorne Michaels loved MGMT and we're just going to have them on anytime they, not to group them in, there's no allegations that it gets MGMT. I'm just talking about a band that was like really hot during the indie rock era of the 2010s, like early 2010s and maybe isn't as much now. Yeah, I mean, MGMT at the very least has like, I think eased into this kind of cult band, present, like they'll put out now that, and, you know,

a little dark age actually became like a really odd, not odd, but like just unexpected hit on TikTok. That's a good record. Yeah, it's great. I like, maybe I shouldn't have dragged them into it. I feel, I feel instant regret about, because I, I like MGMT. I was, or, you know, Passion Pit or somebody. Now I'm going to like besmirch someone that you love, but, you know,

just someone that was huge 15 years ago and maybe is less so. Less in the mainstream now. Yeah, absolutely. Because, I mean, I think that, like, everything now was actually, like, that song was, like, a hit, like, a radio hit in a way that they hadn't really achieved before. But, yeah, it's with Arcade Fire, it's not so much like an MGMT situation where they're not as popular, but they're still making, you know, respected albums. Like, everything now was just very widely disliked. And we, I think that they, like, you, if you take out all the allegations, which I think we need to like say are immoral and not illegal.

I think there's still a ban on a pretty sharp decline, you know? Like I don't know if they have, I don't even, I mean, they, you know, they headline Coachella, I think twice around the time of maybe the suburbs. But yeah, it's just interesting because they are such a chasing, like, band at this point. There's just like so much, it's like a popped balloon, you know. Yeah, and again, not the tip art. I mean, I don't know. I don't think people are going to be shocked by our take on, I mean, I don't, you haven't even heard the record yet. I've heard the two songs.

Okay, so, yeah. I've heard the record many times. Like I said, I reviewed it. I mean, looking at the Metacritic score, you can tell that critics don't like the record. And look, look, obviously they were primed probably not to like the record. But I think it's fair to say that, yeah, they've been out of, ideas for like a while. Yeah.

And like, it's not even like, oh, it's just these allegations or it's, oh, they're just not as popular as they were anymore. It's also coupled with like just their decline artistically, which again, I think most fans, unless you're a psycho, super devoted fan, I think most people would agree that, like, oh, yeah, first three albums are clearly a cut above everything they've done sense. Reflector would be maybe the record that people would diverge on. I feel like that was clearly the beginning of the game. end. But there's people who love that album. So, you know, but from there on, I think it's hard to make a

case for their relevancy, creatively, culturally, so on and so forth. So anyway, weird booking SNL, but. Walton Goggins, though. Walton Goggins, exactly. Why can't they get drive-by truckers on the show with Walton Goggins? That would, I mean, you know, obviously they're not, they're even less mainstream than Arcade Fire, but that would have been a cool pair-up. I mean, is MJ been on S&L yet? No. I mean, Isbell hasn't been on either. Isbell seems like someone who could be on.

Totally. But hasn't been? I don't know what the deal is there. The Booker has some sort of anti-Isbell bias maybe. I don't know. At any rate, let's pivot to our main conversation, since we're not going to talk about Arcade Fire this week. I guess we just did for a little bit.

But the actual record, I want you to hear it. and then we can both talk about it. But let's talk about the state of music criticism today. This is going to be our state of the union address. We're addressing the Congress of music critics and people who read music critics. And you could fit all those people in one room probably. But there's a couple things that happened this week, and we could talk about them in tandem. One was a, I guess we'll call it a controversy.

I feel like it was a pretty small potatoes controversy. But it's good food for thought for this show. The front woman of the indie band Tennis, whose name I do not know. Do you know her name? I can picture her haircut. Like this band has really, really distinct haircuts, but I cannot recall their name.

Yeah, we should have looked this up before we started talking here. I'm quickly Googling here. Her name is a lot of more. A lot of more. And tennis. is a band that, I have to say, like, I'm familiar with the name tennis. I'm familiar with the game tennis as well.

But, like, the band named tennis, I've seen that pop up periodically over the past, what, like, 10 years or so. I can't say I've ever listened to tennis before. Do you know what they're like musically? Yeah, so they are part of what I would call the cults wave of maybe early 2010s, like, post-slaibells. They kind of were doing this thing in the beginning. So there's like a whole lot of lore around this band. They started out a husband and wife or boyfriend and girlfriend duo who went on this like sailing trip and wrote about said sailing trip on their first album. Wow.

Which was kind of doing like a, you know, early 2010's girl group kind of mid-fi indie pop sort of deal. So like literal yacht rock. Yeah, like quite literally on a yacht or boat or something. Yeah, more like a sailboat. Probably a sailboat. But it's boat rock. Yes. It's modest boat rock.

Not yacht rock, but it's modestly priced, you know, approachable for the 99% boat. So, yeah, that's who that's who, that's who tennis is. And, you know, they've been consistent. And you're right. You're well, you're well right to say like, yeah, I recognize the name because they just been around for six. 16 years? Yeah, first album was 2011. And they just put out a record called Face Down in the Garden.

And apparently this album was reviewed by Pitchfork. I don't think they ripped the record, but it was like a midling review. 6.8, it looks like. A 6.8. And the lead singer of the band, Alana Moore, went to Instagram and posted several sheets of commentary about this. several screenshots where she was calling out writers for pitchfork by name saying that all these men throughout the years have reviewed my record and they've described it in insulting terms and and railing against music criticism

and talking about how, you know, poorly written a lot of these reviews are, very pedantic reviews. I'm paraphrasing here. I don't know if we actually want to just like read. I mean, it's like a long thing. It's long. But it brings up this conversation that we have periodically about the relationship between artists and critics and how you have this artist here who isn't just talking about like one album review.

She's talking about her whole career. She's been reviewed by a pitchfork. And she feels like they haven't been fair to me. And they've been insulting to me. And it's like all these men and the implication is that the men reviewing her records are doing it in like a patronizing way. an insulting way. And this Instagram post

it went viral, sort of, I guess in our corner of the world, a lot of people were talking about this. And I want to get your take on this. I'll just say for me, I guess we can start the conversation here, I'm going to give this person some grace here. I think she's well within her right

to go on Instagram and complain about music critics. I think being reviewed for anyone is really difficult. And it's just a human reaction that like when you create something that means a lot to you and someone comes along and they put a score on it and they go, yeah, it's not terrible, but it's not great. It's like okay. You know, it's sort of forgettable.

I think it's natural to be annoyed by that. So I support her right to do this. I guess I would tell her if she were my friend that you might, might just want to text a friend about this. You don't want to post it because I do think it can be a bad look to complain about your critics, even if you feel like you're justified. And even like just in a human way, I think, again, I think it's a natural reaction to have that hostility.

So like, because whenever something like this happens, you see people saying, well, you know, artists should value critics. They should value sort of the ideal. of someone taking their work seriously and writing about it and that criticism is an important thing. And I believe all those things, but again, on a human level,

like I get why an artist would dislike critics? I mean, why would they like critics? Especially if they're not saying nice things about them. Like, if this band was being praised, I'm sure they would love critics, you know? But given them the 6.8, which again, isn't the worst score in the world,

but it's not what you hope for. It's not what you fantasize about when you put on a record. You want like the 9.8 8.8. So I totally get it. One thing I would say about this piece, or this piece, this Instagram post,

she does go on this thing where she talks about, maybe I can find it. I can't find it. God, there's like six pages here. It's a lot. It's really a lot. She does go into a thing that I think is interesting where she, and I'm paraphrasing here from memory,

so forgive me if I don't get the wording exactly right. But I think she talks about how, you know, she would appreciate a review that she could read and feel like she learned something from, that it was almost like someone giving her constructive feedback. Because her complaint was that a lot of these reviews don't talk about the music. They talk about other things. And she was saying, like, as a musician, I'd love to read a review and feel like, oh, okay, that's something that's helpful to me as a musician.

And I just have to say, like, I think that fundamentally misunderstands, like, what a review is. Yeah. Reviews are not for the artist. reviews are not written to be read by the artist. They're not meant to get feedback to the artist. They're meant to be read by the audience. As a critic, you are talking to the listeners, not to the artist. Now, inevitably, the artists are going to read the review, and they're going to respond to it.

But it's not written for them. It's not intended for them. And it's a hard pill to swallow. I mean, I've been reviewed as an author, and I understand these frustrations. I'm grateful for that experience because I think I understand a little bit what artists go through when they get reviewed but you know those book reviewers

I've gotten some bad reviews and like they're not talking to me they're talking to people who might buy the book or maybe people who have already read the book and they're looking for someone else's take on it so like that thing which I think is common people feel like oh I'm an artist I want to read the reviews and learn something

that's not what it's for you know you're not the audience for it so that's what I would say there And I don't know if you agree or disagree with anything I just said. I'm wondering what you think about this. So, you know, when this was posted, I mean, it's been a while since I've been, you know, a main character on music writer, Twitter. The closest experience I had was maybe last year when I gave like a seven point something review to Oso Oso. And like that crowd got really, really upset with it.

But nonetheless, when this Instagram post was being passed around, my spitey senses were tingling a little because, you know, You know, this is a band who makes pretty, you know, down the middle indie rock music. They've been around since 2011 and have made seven albums since then. And they're also like, you know, being upset about, you know, they've been exclusively reviewed by men, although I will say, Jill Mapes reviewed an EP of theirs. And, yeah, I mean, you look at those stats and there's like a 98% chance that I've reviewed tennis. I have not reviewed tennis. Wow.

Yeah, I, I avoid. I avoid the Reaper here. Yeah, because she names people. Names them, yeah. I don't think it's every person that's reviewed her records, but there's a few people that get name dropped. Yeah, and I am not one of them because I have not reviewed. I would be not surprised if they just put my name in there just out of habit, you know, because I have absolutely been the target of these sort of things. But it's a pretty interesting, it's a pretty phenomenal piece of, you know, gender essentialism.

because at the beginning you have like Mark Richardson and Mark Hogan, just like the kindest Professor Emeritus type reviewers from Pitchfork. And, you know, a lot of the reviewers of tennis albums that are, you know, like openly queer men and younger. And it's really fascinating just with this wide range of, you know, men who have reviewed tennis albums, how how on message they all are. Like they're all pretty much the same review, even though tennis has a, evolved to a certain extent over the past couple of years and decades.

Yeah, it just reminds me of there is this certain subcategory of indie bands who like still harbor like a massive grudge against pitchfork. Like when they got folded into GQ in early 2024, you would hear from bands from like the two, like 2010 to 2014 who thought their career got ruined by getting a 7.0 review. And I guess tennis is along those lines. But yeah, I think that they're well within their rights to clap back. Like, I mean, do what you want as long as you are open to taking the consequences. And I also wonder if this is at all influenced by the fact that tennis is breaking up. Like, this was planned to be their last album. So, you know, you figure the manager gets their 10% cut to tell you not to do these things.

But what do they got to lose? And yes, that's a good point. Yeah. And I am like you're hitting out, like fast forwarding the 2027, but I got like a negative good reads review for my book. And I just like, you know, start like getting like John Federman asking like, like, why don't you like me? Why don't you like me? Well, that's the thing that, you know, those musicians that were having some schadenfreude over pitchfork in the business situation there because they were reviewed 15 years ago. It's like, yeah, you get a negative review.

you remember that. Oh, yeah. That stuff, like, all the good reviews, like, wash away. But, like, the negative reviews stick in your mind. Like, one of the most negative reviews I ever got for one of my books was from the A.B. Club, where I used to work. Ooh. And that was, like, one of the worst. And I remember that headline.

More than any other headline than, like, for people that like the book. It's the crappy ones that you remember. So, again, I think that's a human reaction. I totally get it. There's this thing on the internet now, where we're all mixed together and people talk to each other more. I feel like there's more of an expectation

that musicians and critics get along. Yeah. And really, historically, they don't. I mean, there is an antagonistic relationship there because as a critic, if you're doing your job, if you're saying what you think, you are going to anger musicians. And they have a right to be angry.

I totally get it. I mean, the only time this becomes problematic is when you have a pop star with a huge Stan army that is doing this, because those people can really make a writer's life miserable, you know, because of the fame that they have just totally blows away the stature that any writer would have. But someone like tennis, I think they perceive pitchfork,

and I think correctly, as having more power than they do. Absolutely. So in their mind, they're punching up, even if they're naming specific writers. Also, you know, like if tennis calls you out, It's not the same as like, you know, what, like Lina Del Rey calling you out or Drake calling you out, which we're going to talk about someone who was called out by Drake here in a minute, you know, just to foreshadow what we're going to talk about. But what I will say is that my emotions are blinding.

That's a good song. Oh, is that a tennis song? That's a tennis song from their 2017 album. It's kind of like got this Natalie Pras-type disco sound to it. I think you would like it. Okay. Yeah. I mean, again, I'm not judging tennis's music.

just have like I've literally not listened to it I think once in my life but it's good to hear the male critic say something nice about tennis good for you Ian you you gave him a compliment from the male critic complex here um let's segue here a little bit this is part two of our music criticism our state of music criticism conversation uh I did an interview this week with Anthony Fantano who uh if you don't know who he is which I I feel like our audience probably knows, but I was talking with someone the other day who said that he had never heard of Fantano

until like a year ago, which really surprised me. He's a music writer, not as like online as a lot of us are, so maybe that's why he hasn't heard of Fantano. But Fantano, of course, is the most well-known, I would say, music critic who works on YouTube, and he's been working since 2009.

He has like over three million. subscribers on his YouTube channel. The New York Times once called him the only music critic who matters if you're under 25. So he definitely is a guy of stature. And I know him like really not at all. Like we've DMed a couple of times. But I just reached out to him, I guess last week maybe. And I asked, hey, can I interview you?

I want to have a conversation about music criticism. And you're very successful and I'm curious about your world because I don't know a ton about YouTube. And it was an interesting conversation. I don't know if you read it, Ian. I think he did. I absolutely read it. Yeah.

Because, you know, I mean, I, not to, not to suck our own dicks here, but we did revolutionize trend hashing. Yeah, that is, that is the quote people keep repeating back to me at one point, Fantano says, not to suck my own dick, but I revolutionized the music review or the music review on YouTube, which I think is correct. I don't know if he was the first person to review music on YouTube, but he was certainly the first person to make a lot of money doing it. I don't know if he revolutionized it, but like he kind of perfected it. It's not like the Rolling Stones invented, you know, rock and roll, but they kind of... I mean, I don't think you have to invent something to revolutionize something. I think revolutionary figures tend to be the person that gets the culture's attention and makes it a thing. and makes it a thing.

And I think after him, a lot of other people went on YouTube to become critics. And so in that respect, I think he's absolutely correct. But anyway, one of the things I was most interested in in our conversation was him talking about YouTube and how YouTube is like a TV channel at this point. And how – because I think a lot of people, like in my world, in our world, we look at YouTube as being like the Wild West and that people can just go on YouTube and you don't have to work for pitchfork, you don't have to work for a music website.

You can just give your opinions and you can build a following. And the point that Fantano made was that YouTube now, because of the algorithms, is as programmed as any other TV channel. And he was actually pretty critical of YouTube in the interview and more supportive of like old media institutions.

I'm going to say pitchfork is old media at this point. It sounds weird to say, but in internet terms, they are in old media. I mean, they've been around for 30 years. He was much more sympathetic to the decline of those institutions than I was expecting. I feel like most people in his world take an us versus them attitude, where, oh, yeah, they're going down. And the New York Times is going down.

And that means Joe Rogan's going up, you know, that kind of conversation. But yeah, he was talking about how when he does a review of like, a Deerhoof album and versus like a review of you know like a time of the creator record that like in the past there was a more sort of consistent gap between those two things obviously the the pop star is going to get the greater number of views but he's he's finding that like the more obscure record is getting even fewer views now whereas the pop record is getting more views and it's just getting wider and wider and wider. And I feel like that's relevant not just to YouTube, but to the Internet in general.

And it kind of turns, I think, a lot of conversations that we have about music writing on its head where people talk about pop-tomism all the time, or rockism, like approaches that individual people make and criticism, when in fact it's more about the infrastructure of the internet and how it's been set up to really kind of push people to the same things that are already popular rather than something that might be new to them that they don't know that they like yet. And that's, I think, is a relevant conversation, not just for music writing, but for the internet in general.

It's also very depressing. But I think it rang true when he talked about that. Yeah, I think that was the, that was like the nugget for me there because, yeah, I think it's like, always so reductive and, like, predictable to say, oh, it's the algorithms. it's the algorithms like this kind of boogeyman but yeah when he described like how there was so much more stratification in traffic for the stuff he does and when it impacts him you could you can imagine how it impacts someone like of a lesser profile but yeah i think it's and i think it's he made a very good point about how it's not like you know certain bands are being like shadow band or whatever

but it's just the algorithm favors certain subjects rather than depressing them. And so, but I think just in general, when talking about the state of music writing, I also think that it's an opinion you share as well, that there is more music writing than ever. There's plenty of good music writing and plenty of shit music writing and so many types of it. But I think that the ultimate determinant of how people view the state of things is based on whether you believe, leave the point of music writing is to create full-time jobs. You know what I mean? Right.

Because there's plenty of great, there are substacks, there are YouTube, you know, there's the academic writing that, you know, you and I have our issues with. But I just think that the idea of creating your, like, that music criticism, I guess, like deserves some sort of support as this necessary, like essential workers to use a 2020 term. I don't believe that to be true. And I know that's easy for me to say. But yeah, I think that it really just depends on what you're looking for. Because if you're looking for recommendations, if you're looking for deep dyes, if you're looking for quick hits, they're out there. But it can be, I guess, a lot more tough to find people you trust. What you cannot find is

the kind of career path that, you know, you talk about where you start out at the all-weekly and work your way up. And yeah, that's a lot of. part's done. Yeah, I mean, because I do make a living as a music correct, and I've been very lucky to be able to do that. It's a very privileged situation to have. And I have worked in a lot of different mediums over the years. I've worked in daily newspapers. I've worked in all weeklies, websites. I've done podcasts, obviously. I've worked in documentaries, books, you know, all over the map. And, you know, I've worked for publications that, like, don't exist anymore. And or publications that are severely compromised.

Like my hometown paper, which is where I started my career, I mean, that is like a brochure at this point. You know, like a lot of local papers, sadly. They're so reduced. They keep getting smaller and smaller and like thinner and thinner. And so like, I think to survive, I've had to know when to pivot out of certain areas. And I do think it's true. And I talked about this in the interview that it,

In my time in media, the overarching narrative is institutions get weaker, meaning publications and newspapers and websites and all that stuff. And individual voices get stronger. Like, not all individual voices, but some do. And I think people now increasingly are gravitating to individuals that they trust, more than like, you know, like pitchfork. Yeah. Not that pitchfork.

People still gravitate to pitchfork. But what I'm saying is that they're more like. to kind of pick out writers that they know that sort of agree with their opinion or they like their takes and they're going to focus on that person maybe more so than they would have 20 years ago and I think that is going to continue it's not specific to music journalism or criticism I think it's true across the board obviously you can see it everywhere in Fantano he's just he was like ahead of the curve in recognizing that or I don't even know if he recognized that necessarily when he started. I think he did what he did because he just didn't want to go the conventional way.

That wasn't really, he didn't feel like he was making an impact writing for MPR, which I think he was doing back then. Which is so wild to think about, you know. He started in like our, you know, he started as a writer and then he pivoted to doing YouTube videos and that obviously it was a very prescient thing to do, whether it was on purpose or accidental. He was kind of ahead of the curve of being like, well, I can be the brand. You know, it's not like I have to go to pitchfork and hopefully get a staff job. And that's how I'm going to have my career. It's like, I can be my own pitchfork.

Yeah. And I feel like that is the thing that people are, it's hard to imagine like a 20-year-old kid starting a website in 2025, not to say it wouldn't happen, but I just don't feel like that's the world that that 20-year-old came up in. Yeah, maybe you start a Z, or something. or something that's like but right i mean gosh we've seen so many in our in our time you know like as you know people in their 40 so many places starting out with the intention either be a competitor or a supplanter of like pitchfork and yeah like it is i mean it is really just about like

honing one's individual voice and you know we talked about that when we addressed uh that university in Scotland about like the future of music like you know talking to 20 year olds who want to make a go of this thing bet on your bet on yourself we've now reached a part of our episode that we call recommendation corner where Ian and I talked about something that we're into this week Ian want you go first all right so it's with a heavy heart that I put this one up this we heard this week that Nathan jerd I I apologize if I'm mispronouncing his last name passed away. He was the drummer for a band called The Potees. And the Ponies were a Chicago band from the 2000s who released a couple albums on In The Red,

and their last one came out on Matador in 2007. They were produced by Steve Albini and John Agnello at points. And it's a very solid record collector rock band. It's a band that sounds like all the good stuff. They sound like Joint Division. They sound like Sonic Youth at points, maybe some REM in there. It's just like a really solid band all around that reminds me of, you know, what was happening in Chicago at that time. And a sort of band that gets overlooked in the, I guess, just the past of time because they were really good, but maybe not definitive.

And, you know, it's kind of a remembersome guys situation. But, yeah, just to kind of treasure the guys that are coming around and releasing those 7.5 to 7.8. type records that you know you enjoy maybe you haven't changed the game but still sound good when you listen to them and turn out the lights is my favorite of the bunch of course because it's like the most well it's the most produced one and the most uh atmospheric one of the one that came out on maddador so uh yeah if you just kind of want to get a sense of what indie rock straight down the middle indie rock and the mid 2000s was sounding like uh aside from like the big axe.

Throw the ponies. Good band. Yeah, I was a fan of the ponies as well, and I would shout out the two records that precede the one you talked about, turn the lights out, which came out in 07. It's a record from 2004 called Lace with Romance, which is really good, and then Celebration Castle from 2005, which I feel like is the record I've listened to the most out of those.

But definitely a really good band. And, yeah, they weren't like the era-defining band of that. that time. But they were like a really good band that like would probably come to your town either on their own tour or opening up for somebody else. That was always really good. And they were in the Red Records, which is more of a garage rock label. But like you said, they had more like a post-punk vibe to them where it was almost like if Interpol was like a garage rock band. You know, like they had that kind of quality to them. Lots of, you know, cure, joy division type influences, but a little roughed up.

But really good band and, yeah, sorry to hear about his passing. Condolences go to his friends and family. But check out that band. You know, they're really good. I think those records hold up too. So I think if you haven't heard them, check them out. If you loved them back in the day, spin them this weekend, raise a glass. I want to talk about a band from Portland, Oregon.

This band is called Alien Boy. They have a new record out today called You Want to Fade. And I really like this band a lot. I feel like this is going to end up being one of my favorite guitar pop records, certainly of like the first half of 2025 and maybe even beyond that this year. Their previous record, which came out in 2021, was called Don't Know What I Am. And that made my year end list that year. And this man is kind of more near lane probably than mine.

I mean, they, I think, get grouped under the year. emo umbrella a lot of times. But they have a lot of what I would call like dark alternative influences. Again, we're going to bring up the cure here in Recommendation Corner. But I feel like this band probably listens to The Cure a lot. There's some definite songs on this record that remind me of that have some of those like Simon Gallup sounding bass lines. And basically it's like really good melodies played with like cool guitar tones that are kind of moody sounding. And there's like, great catchy choruses that have like some minor keys in them. Just a really good band, really good songs.

Hoping this band gets a little bit more exposure because they seem to me like a great throw it on type band. You know, like just throw the music on. If you need something to listen to, that's going to be good and you don't want to think about it too much. Alien Boy to me has been that band. Like this is the record I've been listening to when I wasn't sure what else I wanted to listen to. Well, I'll put this on because I know I like it, and it's so good, very durable

songwriting. And again, the record is called, You Want to Fade. Have you listened to this band? Yeah, it's a good. Yeah, they're absolutely, like, I know that they've got, like, you know, they've not had the kindest thing to say about, like, emo bands. Their ilk, but they were on tiny engines in 2018, so they are absolutely in my lane. I've really enjoyed their work. I'm, like, kind of surprised they haven't put out more records. Because they just been around and they've been putting out singles and I know they're well liked. And yeah, I would say that this, you know, if you didn't put this in a recommendation quarter first, it would absolutely be in mind. Yeah, just really cool guitar tones on this record. I think they got like three guitarists

going on. It's all very layered and melodic and, you know, also tracing back to a long history of Portland indie rock. It really covers a lot of bases from, you know, indie pop, power pop, you know, a little bit of like quasi-hemo, if you want to call it that, even though it doesn't sound like it. But yeah, it's a good record. It is kind of like, you know, maybe what, like the ponies were in their day. I was going to say, yeah, the ponies an alien boy, that's a good double bill. Yes. The very complimentary bands, 20 years apart, but doing something kind of similar, very good, though, just, you want to listen to some indie rock man? Yeah. You want to do some indie rock, play this music, it's going to hit the spot.

Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week.