Indiecast - Arcade Fire's Failed Comeback + Andre 3000 vs. The Jazz Guys

Episode Date: May 16, 2025

Steven and Ian begin with a Sportscast segment on recent NBA news, including conspiracy talk about the draft lottery and whether it's wrong to send an "lol" after a devastating sports injury (1:27). From there, they touch briefly on the Fantasy Albums Draft, which is looking very close (12:01), and recent mainstream rock releases by Sleep Token and Counting Crows (16:35). Then there's a discussion of the recent Arcade Fire record, which both Steven and Ian reviewed, and the band's future prospects (20:38). In the mailbag, they discuss criticism of the new André 3000 piano album from the jazz community (39:23).In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks about the new album by punk veterans Mclusky and Steven recommends the latest from Philly country-rockers Friendship (52:01).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 239 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On the show we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about Arcade Fires Failed Comeback and Andre 3000 getting yelled at by Jazz Guys. This is going to be a good episode. I'm very excited.

My name is Stephen Hayden and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He rigged the NBA lottery for Nico Harrison. Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? So by doing that gag, I take it you're unfamiliar with my favorite Dallas Mavericks conspiracy, which is that the Adelson family, who now owns them, traded Luca as part of this like Zionist plot to move the Mavericks to Las Vegas, just like basically to recreate, basically to recreate the plot of Major League because the NBA is too woke.

So that is, you're stepping on shaky ground by implicating me in. that but um not what i'm really doing is just like what i'm really doing is rigging uh the fantasy drafts i'm trying to get i'm trying to find out who's reviewing londa del ray and getting there here oh my god i well okay i did not want to get into some sort of like anti-semitic thing that's what you're implying um yes uh we're going to do a quick sports cast here uh because there was a lot of news this week with the NBA and uh i alluded to to to one of the stories that's been going on I just have to say, like, the NBA is such a funny league to me because I can't think of another major sports league that is the subject of, like, so much talk about how it's corrupt. You know, like, you don't hear that as much in the other leagues, but I feel with the NBA, it's like, it's just ingrained.

It's not something you see on Twitter. You see it from, like, major pundits on podcast talking about it. Like this week, you know, the conversations I was hearing, you know, one conversation was about Janice, Anta Dacupo, who it looks like he's probably going to get traded by the Milwaukee bucks, which makes me sad as a former resident of Milwaukee and just knowing how Janus, I think single-handedly transformed downtown Milwaukee. It's like a lot different than it was when I live there. I left Milwaukee in 2014.

It's a lot nicer. A lot of things going on down. downtown and just shows like how much of an impact a superstar like that can have in a smaller market. And, you know, there's just this thing in the NBA where it's like, yeah, if you're in a smaller market and you're a superstar, you eventually have to go to a bigger market. It's the way it is, you know. You can't be Patrick Mahomes playing in Kansas City or, you know, Josh Allen and Buffalo.

You're not allowed to be a thriving small market because this is bad for business. And that feeds into this other story about the Mavericks. And you mentioned one conspiracy theory. You know, they won the NBA lottery this week. I think they had like a 1.8% chance, something like that. I think they had like 18 ping pong balls out of a thousand. And they won the lottery. And the conspiracy theory I kept hearing on my sports podcast this week was that this was like backdoor compensation for Nico Harrison, the GM of the Mavericks, doing this insane trade to the Lakers, sending Luca.

The superstar basically is going to fill the gap once LeBron leaves. And there was some sort of under the table dealing that if you trade Luca to the Lakers and you burnish the most fashionable brand in the league, then we'll fix it so you get Cooper Flagg. Now, I don't really believe that. But the fact that that is such a common talking point, I think it's such a funny thing about the NBA to me. Yeah, yeah, because like when you look at other leagues, there's actual confirmed instances of cheating, like with the Astros winning the World Series because they were stealing signs or deflategate. But the NBA just... Well, there's Donagie in the NBA. Yeah, but that way he was kind of on his own sort of thing, you know?

But he was like fixing, you know, playoff games. I mean, talk to people in Sacramento. Oh, yeah. See if they think it's a small thing. How they got robbed in 02 against the Lakers. Yeah, I do think that there is... you know, like there's just like so much more cheating accusations of the NBA because I think just by the nature of the sport being five on five rather than like, you know, 11 on 11 and

nine on nine. It's like so much more plausible because there was that huge college betting scandal with Arizona State where people would just like miss three throws. There was a, I think, an ESPN 30 for 30 or Netflix thing about it. But yeah, I just think that I've seen so many like debunking videos about how it's kind of literally impossible to rig the lottery. And yet the fact, I'm choosing like not to believe the truth there. Like for me, this is sort of like they fake the moon landing with Stanley Kubrick. Like I know that's not true, but I just choose to believe it because it's way more fun that way. Like when LeBron was on the Pat McAfee show, what was that, like a month or two ago,

he said that he thought that the lottery was draft, was fixed the, you know, that he was drafted. That, you know, like, oh, I ended up in Cleveland. Oh, what a coincidence. You know, like LeBron James is saying that. You know, the biggest show on ESPN. It's just funny to me. And it's different than these other leagues.

You mentioned the Astros stealing signs or deflake gate. I mean, these are individual teams. I feel like in the NBA, the talk is systemic. It's about, like, the league. Yeah. Controlling things, which is a different situation than individual teams cheating. And again, I'm not saying this is happening. but it's just hilarious to me how it feels like a semi-accepted part of watching the leak.

I just have to say this thing quick, too. Jason Tatum had a devastating injury this week, Tours Achilles in that Knicks series, which by the way, I'm not prepared, I don't think, for the Knicks to be great. I cheer for them because, you know, they haven't been successful in a while, but I feel like that fan base, if they make it to be great, to the Eastern Conference Finals. Like, just getting to the Eastern Conference Finals, you know there's going to be like a four-hour documentary that Spike Lee makes

about the 2024 Nix. You know, and it's just going to be blown out of proportion. You know, we're going to get like multiple documentaries about Knicks Nation and all that kind of stuff. I don't know. I mean, because those are nuts. I'm kind of surprisingly down for it because I think the last time that they mattered was Linsanity.

And that was like legitimately cool. I think the Knicks fan-based. And there's a documentary about that, too. Which, like, how deep did that team get into the playoffs? I know there's like a cultural thing, obviously, with, what was his first name, Lynn's first name? Jeremy. Jeremy Lynn. I know there was a cultural thing, obviously, with him being an Asian player.

But it's as funny to me, like, if he had played for any other team, like, would there be documentaries about Lynn's sanity? Probably not. I mean, it's such a Knicks-generated thing being in New York. But I'm resentful of that a little bit, even though I know. they haven't been good for a while. And I dislike the Celtics more than the Knicks. I had a thing this week where I was on a group text chat the day after the Jason Tatum injury.

And one of my friends is a Boston sports fan. And I sent out a text. And I said, I'm so sorry. And then I added an LOL after it. And the intention of the LOL. was to say, I'm sorry is inadequate in the situation. Like, this is such a horrible injury. It just feels trite to say, I'm sorry.

But as I was sending it, I was like, is this conveying what I wanted to convey? Is it going to sound like I'm mocking him? Is this going to, like, make him mad? And sure enough, he got very pissed off at me. And I think he's still pissed at me. And I get it. I think my problem is that I overuse LOLs. I've self-diagnosed this.

I have a thing where I get paranoid that people don't know my tone in text or in emails. So sometimes I feel like, oh, do I sound, is this going to sound angry or terse or dismissive if I just have it the way it is? So like you throw in an LOL or you throw in an exclamation point. Not two exclamation points. I'm not that sick. I don't know if you have that issue ever. Totally. And they talk about this on the rehearsal as well. Like, are you saying what you really mean to say in texting? And then, you know, for me, finding out that the thumbs up response is like super duper like seen as passive aggressive and like old man. It's like, God damn. That was like my move, man. But people know me, right? I get the thumbs up in real life all the time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don't know what the. I mean, I do have like Celtics fans and like I just give them like give them crap all the time. And, you know, you know. Like losing an Achilles, you know, I would have preferred if the Knicks just beat them straight up.

And I'm not even sure that's going to happen. Like, I am, the Knicks are like historically a team that will blow leads like this, like Charles Smith kind of going to the hole against the, was that the Bulls maybe? But, yeah, I think with Tatum, it's like, it's a shame because you don't want to see a guy get injured like that. Yeah, even though like, yeah, it's terrible. Because, like, he's out all of next year. Like, that's pretty much confirmed. And, you know, you could say, like, oh, think of, like, all the Tatum memories we missed out on. Because, like, he is kind of the embodiment of Mamba mentality of just complete, like, personalityless competence.

But nonetheless, like, I think they are a good counterweight to some of the more, you know, some of the more personality forward teams in the NBA. You know, I like a lot. I think there's interesting stories with all of the ones that are remaining. And to have them, like, overcome this kind of almost like NFL-like, like chiefs-like efficiency of the Celtics would have been really pleasing. But I think that there's cool outcomes all across the board no matter what happens with the playoffs going forward. Yeah, I mean, I'm pulling for the Timberwolves, which again I have weird feelings about because, you know, I've lived in Minnesota not for 10 years, but it's still.

weird for me to cheer for Minnesota teams. I really don't do it. I only do it for the Timberwolves. The twins, you know, whatever, Vikings are my most hated team in the league. Never, never, ever, ever, ever even tolerate the Vikings. But the Timberwolves I like, I feel like the wild. That's the hockey team. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know that. Not big on the wild so much, But I always feel like a fraud cheering for the T-Wolves. I feel like I don't have the equity there for that to be real. But I'm going to do it anyway. It's fun.

I like Anthony Edwards a lot. Julius Randall, fun team. They are a fun team even though they got like Rudy Gober who's like so not fun. I'm like almost kind of rooting for him. Like the guy who like literally shut down the league with COVID. Exactly. Yeah, just so hated. But like you can't teach tall.

Exactly. He's like a French guy too. He's got that thing going on. Everything. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting stew. But the creep can rule, man. The creep can rule. Let's touch on the fantasy album draft update here quickly. Very tight competition here. Do you like it always is. Last year I pulled away a little bit. But then it got close, but I think I still won by a fair amount. of points. But right now, I'm beating you 334 to 331. So it's neck and neck. And we each have one album left. I have the Lana Dale Ray record, which you alluded to earlier, that there might be an investigation into this draft if I end up losing by three points. But her record, the right person will stay, is out May 21st. And then you have Little Sims. Their record, Lotus, is out June 6th. So that'll be exciting. There's also a new album or new-ish album by the metalcore band Sleep Token. Maybe if you're online, you've heard about this this week.

I feel like critics were taking turns like shitting on this band, pitchfork shit on this band. They gave him a 2.3. Fantano took a dump on this band. He called them a metal band for Disney adults, which is pretty funny. A good line there by Fantano. I think we're going to, people are waiting for us to weigh in, though.

I think we're going to wait a week, maybe next week. Next week's a little slow. We got like a big slate of topics this week. But have you listened to Sleep Token yet? Well, I always get them confused with Spirit Box, who has also been to put out a record recently. Right. I guess to me, like Spirit Box is sort of more of like an evanescence sort of deal with

breakdowns. Sleep token, I've not listened to much. They're going to be the number one album on Billboard this week, it seems. And I mean, with like metal bands like this, I can't get mad at it on principle. You know, because like, yeah, Fantano can shit on it. So can pitchfork. But this is like a band that's like so outside the scope of like what people typically listen to there. It feels a little like kind of shit on Grasman.

Van Fleet or, you know, something along those lines. It's like cool to get like your, your, your, your, your, your Lix in, but, you know, I'm saying this is someone who had to like really tiptoe around my review, which is running today. So I'm a little bit mad. But yeah, I'm going to listen to it. Like, I can't, it's probably just like muse or 21 pilots or something along those lines where there's lore and it's stupid if you're like really invested in metal as a thriving genre, which I know the author is. Eli wrote a huge thing on the state of popular metal for stereo gun last year. Eli Ennis, we should say Eli Ennis wrote that review, a really good critic. He wrote the Sleep Token Review for Pitchfork. Yeah, I'm with you a little bit. I feel like

there are indie rock records in the wheelhouse of a place like Pitchfork that get a pass sometimes that would, I don't know if they deserve a 2.3, but sometimes there's some score inflation because of relationships maybe that have. I don't want to do my own conspiracy theory here, but it is a safer target in a way to go after a band like Sleep Token. I feel like we're setting people up for us to do like the sneaky defense of Sleep Token. Is that going to be our schick next? I haven't listened to the band yet.

I have a feeling they're going to be one of those bands that I find endearing because they're so terrible. You know? like a band like a i have a i have a soft spot for like big dumb mainstream rock bands and there's just not that many of them these days so a band that is just ridiculous uh it also has a big audience i'm kind of already on your side even if i know in my heart that your music isn't very good um i think the problem is that they're not being dumb they're not like jet i think they're presenting themselves as like smart like kind of with that tool sort of thing so yeah exactly Exactly. Well, yeah, I don't mean that they're knowingly dumb. I mean, I mean, I think accidentally dumb is just as good.

Oh, that's even better. It's even better. Yeah. Like, when you, when you are dumb and you're trying to be smart as a mainstream rock band, that might be the sweetest spot of all. So we'll see. I haven't listened to them yet. We'll get to him next week. Also in mainstream rock news here, if we can, this wasn't on the outline, but I'm going to sort of shoehorn it in here. There was a County Crow's record that came out last week. I don't know if you were familiar with this. It has possibly the worst album title slash album cover combination I've seen in a long time. It's called Butter Miracle, The Complete Sweets. Are you familiar with this? Didn't they release another album with this name? It was an EP.

Okay, that's it. And this is like the EP plus, I think, four or five more songs. It's a good record. I look, look, if you know me, you're aware of my association with this band or my, I've written a lot about this band over the years. They haven't put out a record in quite some time, like a full-length album. Some really good songs, Adam Duritz, again, really good songwriter. He's coming through. So I like the record.

I'm just, why did you call it Butter Miracle? Like, why does this band always put these obstacles aesthetically, but you're, the good tunes that Adam Duritz is writing and the audience, an audience that might be a little skeptical. Like for a long time, you know, Adam Durts has the dreadlocks. And they're the dreadlock band. And people just make jokes about them doing dread, you know, it's the dreadlock guy from the 90s.

And then Adam Duritz gets rid of the dreadlocks. And it's like, oh, yeah, he's just a great songwriter. It doesn't matter about his hair. Just listen to the tunes. And then they put out a record called Butter Miracle, and it has like a butter-colored album cover. which I'm sorry just not doesn't look good not a good cover I'm looking at it right now and it's uh

well it's rough yeah I got two questions though there's like one song called Angel of 14th Street which is very similar to the Gang of Youth song Angel of 8th Street is that like kind of a sequel because I know Adam was on that record right yeah and Adam and Dave from Gang of Youth are tight so yeah I don't know if it's a sequel or just inspired by it It's like a neighboring angel.

It's an angel. The two angels are in the same neighborhood, apparently. But. Brian Deck on mixing in production, like the kind of mooned an Antarctica connection. All right. Definitely. It's a good record. It's a really good record.

Look, he writes great songs. I think he is a great songwriter. They just do things like call their album Butter Miracle. And then you got to like, be like, okay, I know it's called Butter Miracle, but listen to the songs. are really good. You know, it's like, why can't you just, just call Counting Crows? Do the self-titled record. You know, do that.

I just don't make it so hard for people like me to convince people out there that a late period counting Crows record is worthwhile because I think it is. It's a good, good record. I have to say, too, we got an email this week from somebody who said, why do you guys only talk about cool music on your show? Why aren't you covering bands like Counting Crows that are. still putting out good music. And look, I didn't, I don't want to do this type of tone, but I did have to give him the

sir. Can you Google Stephen Hayden, Counting Crows, before you send this email? Because there's literally like five or six stories that I've written since, you know, A.B. Club days about counting crows. So this is like emailing Bill Simmons and saying, why don't you play Pearl Jam on your show? Why don't you play corduroy on your show, Bill Simmons? That's a good song. It's like, do a little research before you send the admonishing email out.

And besides that, I mean, like cool music, they're on count. They're in GQ right now. Exactly. Yeah, I think we're in the croissants or whatever you want to call it, you know. Exactly. Good album, though. Good album. This is like my pre-recommadation corner pick.

I have a recommendation corner pick later in the episode, but I also got through Counting Crows in there. It's a good record. Speaking of records that maybe aren't that good That was a tortured segue. I apologize. We got to talk about Arcade Fire. We hinted at this conversation last week because their latest record Pink Elephant came out last Friday.

In my review came out, I think the day before the album came out. Your review came out a week later. So the Thursday after the album came out, and we can see. say now, you wrote the pitchfork reveal. And the score from pitchfork, it's right in the middle of like where the metacritic score is. I think you guys gave it a 5.5.

Yeah. Which, and I think the metacritic score is like in the mid-50s. Yeah, it's like a 56. I'm looking at it now. So, um, pretty terrible score for Arcade Fire. And we can say now, we can lift the embargo that I did not like the record. My review was, was very negative. Your review was interesting.

I feel like you're, I don't know how much of this is conscious or not, because you didn't slam the album necessarily. I wonder if in some way you were maybe reacting to some of the early pans and were trying to maybe be a little more forgiving of the weaknesses of this record. Do you think there's any truth to that? Well, I tried to ignore as many reviews as possible because this was an album that, as I alluded to last week, week, I didn't get in advance of it. Nobody at the publication did, which, you know.

Yeah, Pitchfork did not get in advance, and I think the reason why is obvious. I mean, pitchfork made Arcade Fire's name in the 2000s, and they really, what's the opposite of making someone's name? You unmade the name in the 2020s with that investigative report on the sexual misconduct allegations against Win Butler. Yeah, and the interesting thing about the, you know, Pitchfork made its name is that I think it's the great cop book Rip that talks about like the beginning of indie rock on the internet. I think that book came out like 2010 thereabouts. It talks about how Arcade Fire just never wanted to play Pitchfork Festival because they

didn't want to be too closely associated with like they don't want to be known as like the Pitchfork band, which you know, I guess is somewhat sensible. But yeah, I wasn't, I didn't, I mean, I heard the singles, but beyond that, like I did not read the reviews because I really wanted to give it like an honest shot. So I don't know, before I talk about Arcade Fire, I want to talk about the Promise Rings wood water, you know, as I'm prone to do. And now I'm listened to actually like yesterday. And I bring it up only because it is the last Promise Ring album. And it's sort of a concept record about not wanting to make music anymore. So it has that kind of laggard tone that is reflective of a band just kind of questioning like,

we even want to do this? I love that record, by the way. And so that is kind of the sense I've got from Pink Elephant, which is that it is a very cautious self-recriminating album about a band that has absolutely no idea if and how to move forward. And because of that, just because of the there's such a match of the tone and the subject matter, I use the word like, I don't really like this album very much, but I enjoyed it. And I don't even know if it's choice the right word. I tolerated it more than, let's say, everything now and especially we, because those were just so, there was such conflict with what arcade fire wanted to be seen as and how it actually came off. Like, sense of humor, irony, like these are not their strengths and it really showed on

everything now. And by the time, they tried to, you know, course correct on we with their I guess their version of all that you can't leave behind. It just seems so phony to me. And there was just something about how circumspect and just how cautious this record is that made it feel a lot more real than what they were doing before. Because there are some parts of this where it pretty clearly, but also like tangentially addresses what's happening. I think this is most true on the last song stuck in my head. Which has some like, man, they really slipped that lyric past the crazy. PR team about like you know turn my daughters against me like cancel my credit cards um and so

you know I'm like I was talking with my editor about I'm like you know this isn't that bad I mean it's not good but it's not that bad and I think the interesting thing is that I don't know if we talked about this on the podcast or just like in passing before about how like another conspiracy theory where this is just sort of like a sacrificial lamb of a record where arcade fire is just kind of, you know, reading the room before they try to do arcade fire stuff next time around. And I think you were like, nah, that's like 4D chess with it. But I've seen that put up in so many reviews in the time since, including mine, where it's just like, yeah, here's three instrumental tracks.

It's actually as long, if not a little bit longer than we, but it feels more like an EP. So, yeah, and they were on Saturday. I have not seen the Saturday Night Live footage. I feel like I need like a VPN from, like, Bulgaria to see it because there's just been no online evidence of people talking about it. Oh, it's on YouTube. I mean, I watched it on YouTube. And at the end of, I think, Year of the Snake, uh, when Butler tries to smash his guitar. Oh, man. Like he did, you know, 20 years ago when they were on SNL for Neon Bible. S&L loves Arcade Fire. Can we say that? Six times. Six times they've been on. They,

they added that to the review, um, because like I had mentioned the Saturday, which it's amazing. They're on Columbia Records on SNL. And they're like just, not trying. I mean, they were on SNL, they were on the 50th anniversary concert, too. So they've been on, they've been on an SNL show, like, twice in the last three months. Like, Lorne Michaels loves Arcade Fire. And in my review, I theorized that I think it's just because Lauren Michaels doesn't read Pitchfork. I think that if that story had been published in the New York Times, that Arcade Fire would not be on the show again.

just like how Louis C.K. has not been on the show since his big story. I just feel like in Lord Michael's mind, he is an old media guy. If it had been in like the New Yorker or the New York Times, I think it would have been a different, it would have hit differently than in pitchfork. It's almost like it doesn't count as much.

Now, I don't agree with that. I'm just saying that's my theory on Lorne Michaels, because I feel like he is, if anything, pretty mercenary about bolstering that show's brand and having, you know, relevant axon, but also avoiding controversy. Like, you know, the Shane Gillis situation. Like, they cut bait on him very quickly, like when all that podcast stuff came out about him

and then he ended up just being a huge star. Getting back to your point about the record, yeah, the Woodwater comparison is interesting to me. I think what you're talking about is true subtextually of the record. I think that there's a lot of exhaustion on the record. there's a obvious depletion going on. I think there's like five people in Arcade Fire right now. And I found this out, the five, like the core five only play together on three songs.

Well, I was going to say that because it feels like a duo record. It feels like a win and regime record. Like if Matt and Kim made like a very depressing album, like it would sound like pink elephant. So I think that exists in subtext. But like in the text of the record, there actually is quite a bit of talk about like rebirth and reinvigoration. You're the snake. You know, the snake is a zodiac sign that denotes rebirth and, you know, like a snake shedding its skin. You know, that's a very kind of obvious thing in that regard.

There's a line in the song, Alienation, which is a terrible song. It's such a throwback to everything now because it's mostly. Wyn Butler complaining about, you know, technology and people being on social media. But there's a thing toward the end of the song where he kind of goes into this little thing where it's like, I'm trying to find the exact lyrics here. I don't know if you know what I'm talking about. But he's talking about how like at the end of the song where he's talking about, I returned to all my enemies, all the pain they would like to or could have caused me.

I return this evil to them with love in the name of the alien nation. So there's things like that. He makes a reference to Icarus in one song, you know, the symbol of, you know, sort of self-destructive hubris. So I think there's like a weird duality to the album where there is this very obvious exhaustion thing going on. But then there's also these sort of like half-hearted attempts of like, we're moving on, we're turning the page.

You know, we've been through like some bad times, but, you know, we're going to weather this. the storm. And I think the dynamic between Wynn and Regine, it kind of really frames that less as a reaction to like the outer controversy and maybe more toward what's going on in their lives. And I don't want to speculate on the state of their marriage or anything, but I'm sure it hasn't been great in recent years or it's been trying, I'm sure. So it feels like the record is almost like a relationship record, but it's also has obvious resonance beyond that. To me, the problem with this record, and this has been true for Arcade Fire for a while, is that it just sounds flat.

It doesn't have the kind of lift off that exhilaration, I guess, that people get when they think about Arcade Fire and they think about the early records. And they've just seemed like a band that has not had any good ideas in a really long time. And I didn't put this in my review, but I was thinking about it after I wrote it. That in a way, I feel like Arcade Fire, early on, being an underdog felt like such a big part of their personality. You know, they were this band from Canada that no one saw coming and then they end up being like one of the biggest bands around in the late 2000s. And there's almost something about finally reaching their peak, which I think would be the suburbs in terms of their public profile. You know, that's where they win the Grammy for album of the year and all that stuff. it's almost like, okay, what does Rocky do when he wins the championship?

There's really nowhere else to go but down. And I feel like there's something to that with Arcade Fire. It almost feels like they've been rudderless now for a really long time. And to me, like what you're talking about, well, is this like a setup for like another comeback that's going to come on the next record? To me, the comeback is do the funeral anniversary tour. because I think that's what Arcade Fire is. They're a nostalgia band now.

They've been creatively spent for a really long time. And I just think the expectation that they're going to make another record that even approaches what they did before, no one believes that. Not even the most committed fan of this band, I believe, would actually expect that. I think those people, if you're still on board with this band, you want to go to the anniversary tour. I think that would actually be something a lot of people would respond to

and it feels like the best path forward for them. Yeah, I think that there are parts of this record where it sounds like they're approaching that, you know, those big cathartic courses. But this got cut from the review. It just reminds me of, you know, all the NFL linebackers complaining about, like, how they can't play ball because, like, they're going to get a roughing the passer penalty on Pat Mahomes. You just see, they're just like holding back, like, because I feel like if they were to do those you know like that wake up or that no cars go type thing that it would be seen as like kind of

tone deaf because like they created their own crisis you know it's not like they got into a van accident or they were coming back from that um so yeah they're just kind of stuck in between like doing classic arcade fire or actually like leaning in and making a record explicitly about all the dark stuff which i mean that in a way that kind of made them more interesting because it's like, you know, instead of this kind of pat, oh, we're all in this together, it's just when Butler is not the guy who he is. And there's a line on the last song about like, I quit this job, I quit this job. And that to me is like where the heart of this record could be. It's just like to lean into that. Like, hey, this is my job. Like, I got to figure out how to fix this. But yeah,

they're just kind of kicking the can down the road, unfortunately. Yeah, I was thinking about this with Arcade Fire, and, you know, I mentioned, just mentioned how they won the album of the year, Grammy, and I think that was 2011, and it just seemed like at the time that it was a no-brainer that they were going to be U-2 of the 21st century, and that there would just be a series of climaxes. And, you know, you two, obviously, they had their own fall in a lot of ways, but they had, like, a good 20 years. I would say even 25 years, where they were putting up big records that, meant a lot to people. Whatever you might think of, although you can't leave behind or how does this manol atomic bomb? Like, those are big records that did really well and they sustained stadium

tours for you two. It just felt like, oh, arcade fire is going to be a lock for that. And I know those people that love Reflector. I heard from the Reflector people in my mentions because I lumped that in with their decline. So I know there's some people that stumped for that record. But, you know, certainly the last three records have been down. Is this like the biggest fall from grace in modern indie rock? I mean, the Kanye thing is a separate conversation. And he's bigger than indie rock. So we won't talk about him.

But I think that this is like the, if you think about where their brand was 15 years ago versus now, is there anyone that is in the same ballpark as them as far as just, a degraded reputation. Yeah, well, I think their only competition is MIA. And we can make the, like, you know, an Grammy album of the year. Like Arcade Fire, if they weren't going to be like you, too, they might have done like more of a scaled down version of it.

But, I mean, they've copied the playbook page by page. But, and also, I don't think we mentioned it, they have Daniel Lanwaan production on this one. By the way, what I learned from this review is that. If you take away, like, that album he made with Neil Young, like, Linoy's or whatever you want to, like, that's what it's called. Or, and like, you two and like some like very, very, like, low-key blues rock thing, like from industry plant type people. The only records that Daniel Lamois is, like, done in mainstream indie rock in the past 20 years are like Battleborn, which, you know, he was like one of four producers on that record. That's a killer. You got to say that's a killer's record.

You can't just drop Battleborn. I don't think people necessarily. know, oh yeah, that's the fifth Killers record. Yeah, that's like their low point, too. I think that's like widely seen as like the worst Killers record. And like a Dashboard Confessional album from 2006.

So, yeah, so Daniel he's not been in the mix lately. Well, he's sitting on like Joshua Tree Money and Time Out of Mind Money and... Well, Octune Baby and like Peter Gabriel So, I mean, he's got points on some pretty big records.

So I don't think Daniel has to work too hard these days. Nah. But yeah, MIA, I mean, she was at the Super Bowl that one year, not as like a headliner, but just like as part of it. And yeah, I mean, with MIA, she had that record Maya in 2010. That was like very divisive, but that was, I think that was clearly a in 10 years or 15 years, people would look at that. It's like, yeah, she was ahead of her time or it was misunderstood. You know, bad girls was a hit in 2012, I believe, and her 2013 album did pretty well. So I think she could have, like, carved out a career for herself as just being someone who puts out a record maybe every three or four years and it's relevant, even if it's not, like, you know, Aurolar or Kala, like, guaranteed win pass and job in a given year. But Arcade Fire, like, it's a very steep decline from Grammy Alamabier Award winner to, but, like, where they're at is still, you know, maybe they're like Mumford and Sun's level where they can still play pretty big shows and, you know, duets.

SNL and they still have a viable career whereas MIA is just like I don't think there's any coming back from this she's like barely a musician at this point and not just that in terms of like making bad music but like Alex Jones like 5G is poisoning us uh quat not if not maga like very alt-right conspiracy Alex Jones stuff so yeah that's like hers is more steady and like sad and there's just like no viable path forward for her. She's not even making records now. I feel like you only hear about her, you know, again, like doing some wacky Instagram post. I mean, that's the activity.

I mean, when you were talking about MIA, like Azalea Banks came to mind as well as another person. But actually, I'm kind of entertained by Azalea Banks like half the time. So I don't want to maybe put her in that bucket. Maybe like when Arcade Fire plays S&L again. in the fall. I guess like, more than Michael's, come, come do the season premiere, okay? We booked you, it's been like four months.

We'll bring you back. Maybe Arcade Fire can bring out MIA for like a guest shot. We can do like a real like, you know, just like heaven, the, uh, the underbelly version on SNL. It'd be amazing. The No Cars Go, Paper Planes remix or whatever. Amazing.

I mean, that would have been amazing like 20 years ago. Yes. If that had actually happened on SNL, people would be loving it, now it would maybe be a little sad. Let's get to our mailbag segment. We always love to hear from our listeners. Hit us up at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com. This is a good letter.

This is a good email. We wanted to talk about this anyway, but we're glad this person brought up this topic. Do you want to read our email? Yeah. So, hi, Stephen Ian. In the wake of the discussion about music criticism, I do hope you will talk about Matthew Schipp's criticism of Andre 3,000. and sketches. We'd love to hear your thoughts on artists going that hard at other artists.

Love the pod. Love the recommendations. Love every cast. Keep it up. Stephen, Mount Gambier. Mount Gambia. I don't know. South Australia. Damn, South Australia. Yeah. Man, that's got to be beautiful. Is it winter there now? Or maybe going into fall right now? I just know the toilets go the other way. That's the only thing I really know about Australia. I really want to go to Australia sometime. That country seems awesome. Yes. But getting there would just take forever.

So I don't know if I ever actually do it. So yeah, we should fill people in here. There was a jazz musician named Matthew Schip who listened to the new Andre 3000 album. It's called Sketches. And I believe it's seven piano pieces that Andre 3000 wrote. It's a short record, right? Isn't it like 20 minutes?

Like quite literally sketches. Yeah. Like it is truth in advertising. But it's being released by a major label, so. Yeah, and I think you can buy it on vinyl for $34, which, yeah, you know, if you're going to hear Andre 3000, you know, dick around on a piano, you don't want to do it on the streaming. You want to hear it on vinyl. You want to hear the crackle of the vinyl for this project from Andre 3000.

So Matthew Schip is a piano player himself, and he, I think this was on Facebook. Which is great. That's so great that he was doing it on Facebook. It's perfect. So a friend called me up and mentioned that Andre 3,000 has a piano album out. I was like, what? I checked it out on YouTube. My impression of it, I think it is complete and utter crap.

Horrific. God awful, insipity, wretched nothing. Oh my fucking God, this is some atrocious shite. Is he some type of fucking asshole? Is he a complete and utter dilettante? I could go into detail about why each cut is still born, but why bother? And yada, yada, yada. from there.

Yeah. Can I just bring up, though, he said shite, utter shite. He's from Delaware, Matthew Schiff. Oh, is they? Oh, okay. I don't like, yeah. Like, when the Americans do, like, the British slang, like when, uh. Wills.

Wiles. Yeah, or I'm seeing people say chuffed. Oh, man. More often now, like, I'm really chuffed by this invitation. I'm not a fan of that. No. That's their thing. You just say I'm happy.

You don't say chuffed. So there was also another one, right? You pointed out a substack post. Like this Matthew Shipp thing got picked up by all these aggregators, but there was another jazz guy that went after. Yeah. One of the guys from Bad Plus, also, which I'm trying to remember. Bad Plus was like kind of the jazz album that gets reviewed by like indie websites in the 2000s. But nonetheless, it's like, yeah, someone who, you know, has chops, have the deal.

And yeah, and the bad plus guy kind of talked about his general thing playing off Matthew's ship was that if you're fan, like it's, it's like almost like the word is post quality in that it doesn't matter. That's word I made up where it's like it doesn't matter. It's just like the fact that Andre 3000 is doing it, which is like, yeah, it's the fact. And this is like this unworkable knot where it's like if it wasn't, if it was just somebody like, if like outside or. art, you know, like it was like a seven-year-old or just somebody, you know, in a, like a psych war doing it. Like maybe you wouldn't hear it. But it's like, oh, it's Andre 3,000. So you have to view everything through the lens of the guy who made it. And yeah, that just kind of deter. It's like, it's like, oh, it's beginner's mind. It's someone who's like really going out there on a limb to,

you know, risk embarrassment. But like that critic proves it in a way too. Yeah. Like if the whole point is to like learn in public, then there's really no way to criticize that, you know? Yeah. And it, look, it originates with the flute album. Yeah. You know, that he put out, which was very long. That's a very long record. I think it's like 80-some minutes, if I were.

So long. New Blue Sun is the name of the record. That got nominated for album of the year, Grammy. And it was topping or not topping, but it was. was on many year endless. And look, let's be frank. Nobody has played that record since the week it came out. Okay, not a single soul.

No. Not even Andre 3000. Not even Andre 3000's friends or his relatives. Nobody played it. We all heard the record and we thought, oh, it's cute. Andre 3000, he made a flute record. This is so great. And it got good reviews because people like Andre 3000.

Who doesn't like him? Who doesn't like Outcast? Nobody. We all love him. he has so much goodwill with the public. Whereas if somebody else did it, literally any other artists. Let's say Father John Misty made that record.

Let's say Father John Misty made the flute record. And it was the exact same record. How do you think that would have been reviewed? Not that well. Okay, I can guarantee that. It's the most egregious example. It's celebrity, but it's also, again, just like we like this person. So we like the album.

And we like the idea that he's going outside of his own zone and doing something different because apparently Andre 3,000 is never going to rap again, even though that's the only thing we want him to do. But I totally get, you know, if you're a piano player, if you're jazz pianist or you're a jazz artist and you commit your life to this, and major outlets, a lot of them aren't going to cover your record, certainly not as many as there aren't going to be talking about Andre 3,000. and you're actually great at your instrument. You take it seriously.

I would totally be P-Oed. I get where they come from. And I'm... I don't like people bad-mouthing Andre 3,000, because I like him too. But this had to be done. Like the flute album reaction, it went overboard.

And we need to admit that. And now it's... Now we have a piano record. Is there going to be like a trumpet record? Is there going to be like a bass record? Yeah, the return to Donnie trumpet featuring Andrethe... A vibraphone record.

I got to say, too, the jazz guy, you don't want to get on the jazz guy's bad side. We joke on this show about, like, the middle-aged punk who's on Facebook, you know, and when they're talking about modern music, if you get them going on, like, rap music or, like, contemporary indie rock or, like, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, you're going to get some, you're going to get some bile from that person, very angry. And you said that it was funny that this Matthew Schiff thing was on Facebook. I mean, the jazz guys now are like the new middle-aged punk guy. And it might be the same guys. It's the same guy.

Yeah, because there is a pipeline from like, I listened to indie rock in the 90s. And now modern indie rock, it's not challenging enough. It's not experimental enough. So now I listen exclusively to jazz. And I hate anything outside of that. I know 40-year-old guys who are like that. Oh, yeah. Look, we know these people.

I am friends with some of these people. I love them. But that is a thing. That is definitely a thing. You become the jazz guy at around 40, and you become like a jazz supremacist. And you're kind of angry at all other kinds of music. And like, I'm not talking about jazz itself as an art form.

I'm talking about the jazz guy phenomenon. It's very, yeah, you don't want to make them mad. They've been mad at our show. We had that controversy last year. Yeah. The jazz guys were mad at us. So we got on their bad side for a while. Why were they mad at us?

I know they were mad at us. You remember there was that prompt about name 13 albums that you love? Oh, yeah, yeah. Or that shaped your life. And people were just listing all of these, like, incredible albums. And we were saying, semi-jokingly, but I also kind of believe this, that if you're talking about the albums that shaped your life, there should be a couple crappy albums on there.

Like albums that you loved before you had a more developed sense of taste. You were not listening to exclusively like Nina Simone at 15, you know? Right. Exactly. I mean, come on. But, you know, we were also having fun with it. But the jazz guys got mad at us about that. There was a little bit of a jazz revolt.

But I just want to say, in this case, I'm with the jazz guys. I appreciate, I know I'm joking about the jazz guys, but the point of this thing I'm going on. is I'm complimenting the jazz guys here because I think they're bringing some truth to the situation. Someone needed to say this. It's tough love. Andre 3000,

maybe you're going a little too far. Yeah. Someone needs to say this isn't good. Yeah, I got to recommend to you the podcast, Guys, a podcast about guys because they did their third episode

on classic rock guys. Oh, yeah. You would love it. But yeah. That's me. That would be diagnosing me. Because I'm the other kind of guy. I'm like,

oh, I'm just going to listen to bootlegs, you know, recorded in 1973. I'm going to talk about that on the show. I'm that kind of guy. These are people who are like reviewing bad company shows on Ticketmaster. So you get to see like a new layer of that. I might be that when I get in my 50s. We'll see. That could be me at that point.

Yeah. I understand like with Andre. Like, you know, it's inspiring to see people embrace beginner's mind as publicly. But you know what also is inspiring to me? Hearing Andre 3000 rap. People love to hear Andre 3000 not rap. And this was true even as far back as like The Love Below, which let me just say like 75% of that album is ass. Roses is and I've listened to all of Idle Wild.

Yeah, Rose is probably the worst outcast song. Hey, uh, like look great. But like so much of it is just like, I mean, precursor to like childish Gambino doing prints. Uh, speaker box was so much better. Yeah, it's like people love to hear, people love and have loved to hear Andre 3000 not rap. Yeah, it's weird. It's like if Jimmy Hendricks had lived, but instead of making guitar records, he was making, you know, like xalophone records. Well, actually, this is amazing.

And he probably could have made a great xalophone record. But there is a weird thing about like, oh, this guy when he was rapping, he was like, basically the best in the world at doing it. And he has chosen not to do it, and that's his right. But then he does these other things, not as well. But we love this guy so much that we want to encourage his adventurousness. Is it the long game and the hope that, like, oh, if we love the flute record and we love the piano record that he'll rap again? Because I feel like it's, if that's the strategy, it's not working. It's pushing him in the opposite direction.

Yeah. And you bring up that Jimmy Hendricks alternate history. I have very vivid memories of reading this guitar. issue of guitar world from the mid-90s where they did like what if jimmy hendricks was still live and it had like all these like weird scenarios and this was in the same issue where i read i think it was like jd conceding saying that he can't take like a women guitar seriously until a woman makes a guitar solo as good as the one from hotel california these are all real things i promise you this is real oh no i really wish my i really wish my

parents kept those issues. I mean, that isn't a good guitar solo, though. You know, Joe Walsh and Don Felder, you know, tip the cap. But, yeah, not a, not a shining moment in the history of white guys writing about music. That would be a low point, I'd have to say. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call a recommendation corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first?

All right, so it took me a little while to get to this record and that it can. came out last Friday and you would think that it would be something I'd be totally on. McClusky put out a new record called The World is Still Here and so are we. So this was a record that I was a little hesitant to approach because I loved New Dallas, but like that was 20 years ago. And it was sort of the, you mentioned the albums that to get to know me mean, like that would probably have been one of them in 2004. But, you know, I reviewed a future of the left album, which is the project Andy Falcons did

afterwards. And it struck me as if, like, I was listening to, like, a new Lewis Black or Dennis Leary bit, you know, like, one of those, like, real truth teller rant comedians who, like, you just love as a teenager and then you listen back, it's like, oh, my God, this is just awful. But to be fair, Andy Falciss was, like, maybe the only musician who, like, legitimately roasted me in response to a pitchfork review. But this album is surprisingly good. It's just a humorous caustic rock album on Ipecac records that doesn't take itself too seriously. It doesn't try to address the world. They're tried to like make too many gags and, you know, they sound great. And it's, yeah, if this were to be like a new band, you would say, yeah, they're kind of doing that

McClusky thing. This is also kind of like my back to a recommendation to listen to Do Dallas. If you haven't listened to that record yet, like you cannot make records like that anymore. it just rules so hard it's got that Steve Albini production you know to hell with good intentions Japan droids covered that they did till like the very end

so yeah shot to McCluskey it's not like a you know it's not like a game changer but it's pretty big accomplishment to make a record this good this far from the peak you know the jazz guys love McCluskey I feel like they're like in the they get grandfathered into the indie rock thing like

The jazz guys talking about jazz, but when there's a McCluskey record, they're breaking the indie rock, you know, band temporarily and talking about McCleskey. I already mentioned Counting Crows as being like a pre-recondition corner pick. I also want to talk about a band called Friendship. And they have a new record out today called Caveman Wakes Up. And it's a great record. One of my favorites of the first half of 2025. We're coming up on that season, by the way, the mid-year-less season coming up here.

So we'll have to be thinking about that in June, Ian. Jeez. I know time is flying by here. But one of the trends for me this year in terms of music I've been into, F-word bands. Loving F word bands. I got Fust. I got Flory next week. I'll be talking about them in the Recommendation Corner.

And then we have friendship here. They're also all associated with the same record label, which is Dear Life Records, just killing it this year. They are easily my favorite record label right now in the indie world. They're just putting out so many records I love. You may know them too because they put out boat songs by M.J. Lenderman. Feels like that was maybe like the first big album that kind of put them on the map. But they've been really killing it this year.

And Friendship, this latest record is the latest jewel in their crown. This band came into my orbit with their last record, which was Love the Stranger, came out in 2022. And the focal point of this band is the songwriting of a guy named Dan Riggins. And he's definitely in that David Berman zone. He kind of sounds like David Berman. He writes lyrics in a similar style where there's a lot of poetry going on, but there's also great win-liners and great storytelling going on.

And it really feels like David Berman. this year is having a little bit of a revival. I mean, he never really goes away, but you're really seeing people that are overtly sort of evoking David Berman. There's another guy named Ryan Davis going to be putting out a record this summer that I think a lot of people are going to be talking about as one of the years' best.

But, yeah, again, this is just great songwriting, and there is that sort of beautiful mid-tempo country rock vibe going on. A great dusk record, very quotable record. If that's your thing, any of these things I'm talking about, this record is definitely going to be something you want to check out. Again, it's one of my favorites so far this year. Again, it's called Caveman Wakes Up. It's by the band Friendship. I don't know if this band, if you've listened to them at all, Ian. Oh, absolutely. And yeah, I mean, there was a record from Friendship that I think came out. It was either 2017, yeah, 2017, shock out season. I love that record. I don't, I may have reviewed it. Not sure, but it was like more what,

what you were talking about, but it was like almost more Cassio tone for the painfully alone, like, kind of Synthy and Drum Machines. Love that record. Reviewed, um, yeah, I think I reviewed their one from 2022 or something. Yeah, I love the stranger. Yeah, I think I might have reviewed that one. And yeah, I'm looking forward to this one. I don't think I have the, I don't think I have the advance yet, but yeah, he does good work. I think he's actually at the University of Iowa's writer workshop. Dan Briggins. So yeah, he's doing the work. Yep. Makes sense.

Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mixedape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.