Indiecast - Arcade Fire's Future, 'Songs For The Deaf' 20th Anniversary, and The State Of Power Pop

Episode Date: September 2, 2022

Following the recent trend of early aughts bands returning with new music, Muse are attempting to make a comeback with their ninth studio album, Will Of The People. On this week's Indiecast episode, hosts Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen question the band's current critical acclaim and compare the LP to some of their earlier hits (39:24). Plus, Indiecast revisits Queens Of The Stone Age's Songs For The Deaf (32:54) for its 20th anniversary and discusses the new album by Portland-based power pop artist Mo Troper (48:44).The biggest indie news of the week came in the form of an investigation into the past behavior of Arcade Fire's frontman (20:06). Recent misconduct allegations surfaced against Win Butler, clashing with the musician's pious image and begging the question: How will these allegations affect the band's current tour? In other music news, Indiecast discuss the resilience of the MTV VMAs (2:36) and the headline-making satirical rapper Yung Gravy (:26).In this week's Recommendation Corner (58:59), Ian shouts out Callous Daoboys, a band that exemplifies the exciting music coming out of the heavy rock/metalcore genre today. Steven tells listeners to check out Eli Winter, whose recent self-titled project is a perfect Americana-tinged instrumental for the season.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 104 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we discuss Win Butler, Queens of the Stone Age, Muse, and Power Pop. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's a big Young Gravy fan. Ian Cohen, Ian, how are you?

I think we need to be clear right off the bat that by mentioning Young Gravy, we're not trying to glom on to TikTok trends, but this is a guy from Rochester. Well, we're not trying, but we're also not not trying. I mean, if we do it accidentally, then we're not going to kick those listeners to the curb. If we get some of the TikTok teens listening, because I guess we should put Young Gravy in the description of this episode,

just for the SEO potential. Yeah, and failing that, like, maybe we'll get the audience that was, like, stoked to see him go to the VMAs with Addison Ray's mom. who, by the way, is 42 years old. That's how old I am. What? Yes. She's 42?

I feel like that's what I saw. So I am almost three years older than Addison Ray's mom. Oh, my God. And of course, like, the big, so we just need to backtrack for, like, the people who are about to, like, you know, write letters saying you guys should stick to the 1975. This young gravy, he's a rapper, he's big on TikTok, and, you know, he's from Minnesota, went to UW Madison. I know Steve likes to see a local dude make good in the rap game. Yeah, well, that's why he's got gravy in his name because we love gravy here in the Upper Midwest. Wikipedia says his musical style has been described as humorous, satirical, and groovy that has six footnotes on it.

Yes. And apparently, like, there was a thing he did for a while. where TikTok viewers would just send pictures of their mom, and he would talk about like, hey, I want to ban your mom. So hence, this is why he took Addison Ray's mom, who Addison Ray is a famous TikToker, to the VMAs, which, I mean, you might say, like, what the fucks does have to do with MTV?

I mean, beers and butthead are now watching TikToks in their review. Well, did you say that the reason we're talking about this is because they're at the VMAs together? I don't know if you've mentioned that yet. You're burying the lead in all this context. The VMAs together, yes. Yeah, the VMAs were last weekend, and this was the only thing. Well, actually, there were two things that happened at the VMAs.

Young Gravy took Addison Ray's mom, which that generated a lot of press. And the other thing is that Taylor Swift announced a new album called Midnights. And I have to say that, like, when I saw this on Monday morning, I felt like this was below Taylor Swift to go on the VMAs and announce an album. The VMAs are a zombie award show at this point. I have no idea why this thing still exists. I feel like there was a time you and I would remember in the aughts where aging music writers would watch the VMAs

as if this was a way to take the pulse of young America, and it had that relevance. Now I feel like it's the zombie chasing youth culture. I mean, MTV is not setting the pace. at all. It's just attempting to glom on to whatever is trendy for this like three-hour stretch of time every year when they're not airing ridiculousness. I mean, I feel like that's all they do now is air ridiculousness. And then once a year they put on the VMAs. And it's like, why is Taylor Swift going on this show? She's so much bigger than this show in MTV. It just seemed beneath her.

But then it was pointed out that this album has 13 songs, and it is now 13 years since the Kanye West incident at the VMAs. So, like, if you're Robin from the rehearsal, this has serious significance. I think there's some other numerology things with this, too. Very much so. I've seen some really cool stuff. Do you want to look into it? I've seen some really cool stuff with numerology with this one. And I don't know, I think that like when you consider that maybe Taylor Swift's audience, you know, amongst other people are aging music critics still trying to like glom on to teen trends, maybe this is the venue.

If she was to choose like a television show to announce it on. It's really funny. Like I actually at work yesterday tried to talk to, you know, some of the 18 to 25 year olds or whatever. It's like, hey, so anyone see the VMA is just out of curiosity. And this one who was 22 was like, yeah, my mom asked me if I was watching it, you know. So again, maybe they're like recat, and I'm sure this woman's mom is like close to our age. So maybe, I don't know, maybe this is their way of pulling in like the 40-something audience. It's, you know, you got to think like Robin from the rehearsal.

This is just 8D chess going on with the VMAs. I guess. I just feel like Taylor Swift doesn't need to go on the VMAs to get publicity for a new album announcement. If anything, it's the other way around where the VMAs can pretend that. they can justify their existence for another year because of that whole thing. I think didn't Taylor Swift win more VMAs at this one than like anyone else in history?

Well there was this, I think she's won video of the year more times than anyone and I'm sure there was some wink wink nudge nudging that if you show up we're going to give you an award if not outright telling her we'll give you an award

we'll make up an award you know we'll give you the greatest artist of the Century Award, you know, whatever it is. Like, they gave the red-out chili peppers a global icon award, like, whatever that means. I love that. Make up an award. Yo, we got to get the chili peppers.

It's like the most outstanding. It's like the Mr. Burns' most standing achievement in the field of grit. I can't believe I'm fumbling a fucking Simpsons reference in this episode. This is like... Well, I mean, the chili peppers, that's like the voodoo lounge era Rolling Stones showing up to the VMA is like when we cared about it in the 90s. It probably did. I have no idea.

I don't know if they like made up an award to give to the stones. And then they came out and played love is strong. Oh yeah. And, uh, everyone loved it. Uh, you know, hats off to the chili peppers. I, I hope they put that global icon award in a safe spot.

I wonder like if John Fersante was thinking like, oh, why did I come back to this? I don't want to get a global icon award. at the VMAs. Maybe he did. But that's like part of the, you think so, he's like, this makes it all worth it. My journey was leading to this moment of getting this totally made up award at this zombie-fied award show in 2022 where everyone else in the building is like a third our age.

You think Fashante was thinking that? You think he was like, oh, I feel fulfilled in this moment? I feel like trying to predict what's going on in John Fershant. Chante's mind is Fool's errand. So, but, you know, also, I just love the other thing I love is that, like, they gave some sort of like lifetime achievement award to Nikki Minaj who then, like, proceeded to perform like a shit ton of song. She has publicly said that she doesn't like. So I think, I think if there's any sort of encapsulation of the VMA experience in 2022, there it is. That's it. Let's get to our mailbag here. And thank you all for writing to us. It's always great to

hear from our listeners. Hit us up at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. This week we got a ton of letters from across the pond, as they say, over in the UK, because last week we were talking about the Arctic Monkeys announcing a new album called The Car, and it comes out in October. And we were wondering, like, how do the Brits feel about Arctic monkeys at this point? Obviously, they're a popular band, but is there any cool, still with this band or they looked at as they're just a legacy band.

We're sick of these guys. They're popular, but we could take or leave them. And a bunch of Brits wrote in to give expert testimony on this. And it was interesting because they all basically agreed that the Arctic monkeys are still cool in England. Although if you are a stuffy record store clerk, type. You look down on them maybe at this point while still valuing the first two records, but, you know, AM era, maybe a little too big, not into it anymore. So we got a bunch of letters.

It was great to hear from our British listeners, or not just British, just UK in general. It's just nice to know that, that people all around the world are listening to the show. It's really great. And we wanted to read one of the letters here. This is probably our favorite letter that we got. Do you want to read this letter? This is from an Arctic monkeys fan. Name Chris in North Ireland. So hi Steve and Ian. Or, and maybe they pronounce it I in there, maybe that's how I think it's pronounced. In answer to your question about whether the Arctic monkeys are considered cool in the UK, Steve had it bang on the money when he compared their fan base to that of Oasis. They're more of a RADS band, big with more middle of the road

indie crowd here and no East London hipster worth their salt would go to bat for them, with the possible exception of nostalgic value for the first two albums. I had a conversation with a very sniffy record store clerk in Hackney. Just what a sentence. I love it. When their last album came out, which confirmed it. I think a lot of their streaming numbers are down to their popularity in Latin America and Australia, borne out by their upcoming tour stops.

Big fan of the show, happy to answer any future questions about indie UK fan bases. Incidentally, I used to be neighbors with Matt Healy when I lived in London. Very nice guy. He paid for our shared guard. and wall to be repaired when it collapsed. Wow. Talk about burying the lead. I know, dropping the mic there with the incidentally with some inside Maddie Healy knowledge.

And, you know, that's gossip, I guess, but that's like nice gossip. Good for him. He's buying a little wall. Although it's, it's his wall too, though, it sounds like. And he is the pop star. He ought to be paying for that. So I don't want to give him too much credit. But, you know, Chris says he's a nice guy.

he's our northern Ireland correspondent, so we'll take him at his word. So, yeah, so again, he was confirming our suspicions from last week that this is a band that, like Oasis, considered a Lad's band, like Chris says, kind of like a middle-of-the-road indie fan-type band. If you're more on the discerning side or more of an underground person, maybe you don't like Arctic monkeys if you're in the UK or you're a little suspicious of them, but otherwise just a real band of the people there in the UK. Yeah, and boy, is there anything more validating than having our opinions, you know, give into a UK person and them saying we got it bang on the money?

We were very chuffed about that. I think that's how we use the word. But yeah, I think that this gets into the whole like the whole consideration of like what it means to be cool. Because you know what? Like I think when you say like Lad's band, people probably think Oasis is super cool. The Arctic monkeys are super cool. And then there's like the question of like whether they're hip or not.

And so I think this is a really interesting discrepancy between like what Chris describes. And now, now that the Arctic monkeys are like not in their AM phase anymore, I feel like they're like almost crossing over to become a critics band. Like especially the new single, it's like not all that different than what Father John Misty is doing in terms of sound. They've had just so many interesting phases of their career. Like, you know, in the beginning, like, you know, the nostalgic value of their first two albums. Like, this is when they put out their first album. And, you know, the NME gives it, like, a 12 out of 10, like two months before it comes out. And then they're kind of, like, falling off in popularity.

Then A.M. makes them super huge in America, which I think also subsequently makes them huge in Latin America in Australia. Because, like, I think of the festival circuits. I've been to Coachella and seeing how like South Americans and Australians really show out for their favorite fans there. I'm always so interested when a band becomes abnormally famous in markets. I feel so obnoxious saying the South American markets. But, you know, something like that. Like Interpol is still enormous in Mexico. That's fascinating to me.

Yeah, I mean, I think that has a lot to do with touring in those places and maybe two. touring at a certain time in your career where people felt like they were getting in on the ground floor with you. And, you know, especially if it's a country where a lot of bands don't go to, I think that really can breed loyalty in these kind of bands. I was thinking about something I wrote many, many years ago, about a much different kind of band, but it was about Bon Jovi. And about, like, how Bon Jovi was this very popular band during the hair metal era. and they were able to transcend that era and become a very big touring act

like well after the 80s in a way that you would maybe be surprised by and part of that was because in the 90s when they were down in America they were touring everywhere else in the world and they really grew that market and it sustained them during that time

so that when they did come back in the odds with that song, It's My Life. You remember that song? Of course I remember. Like Frankenstein I did it. terrible song. Like Frankenstein, I did it my way. Yeah, right.

They already had this great international market already waiting for them. And then America, it was almost like the cherry on the Sunday or something. I want to go back to something you said about Arctic Monkeys, about them becoming really big in America with AM. One theme of the emails that we got from our UK listeners was this feeling among the British fans that Arctic Monkeys, you know, went to America in a sense like left them behind. And, you know, as popular as I think they remain in that country, there's this feeling of, well, do they belong to America now and not so much us?

So that's sort of an interesting narrative. And I feel like as Americans, because we're so self-centered, we don't really take those kind of things into account. Like even when American bands do well overseas, we don't think of what we're losing them to this other country. but I think there is a sense sometimes in other countries that if a band is really big in America, then it's almost like America's taking them away from their country and in a way that can ruin the band a little bit. And certainly I think Arctic Monkeys are an example of a band that used to be super hyper-specific as a British band,

you know, making very specific references, sounding very English, and certainly with AM, it was Americanized on that record. Yeah, I think it, this is like the first time in a long time I've thought about this thing that was huge when we were, you know, teens about asking whether a British man can quote break America. You know, it's like Oasis was super big, but can they break America? Same with like the verb or pulp or blur. And I think this is like, well, I guess we could say glass animals kind of did that as well. Yeah, I think that, like, Arctic monkeys to me is, I don't know, they're kind of in this, like, lane by themselves as this band that was, like, super hip and cool, like, early on, but also super popular and have been consistent. Like, I can't think of an American equivalent to, like, yeah, like, who would be even close?

Well, I was trying to think of that about a band that would have started around the time Arctic Monkeys then. I think their first record came out in 06. and they've remained consistent in terms of putting out records. I mean, they put out fewer albums now. The gaps between albums have grown larger, but they're still an active band, and they still have cachet 16 some years later. And the band that I came up with is Vampire Weekend.

They seem like they're a much different band in terms of sonically and what they write songs about, But to me, because you think about early Vampire Weekend, they had a similar kind of buzzy quality to them. They were really associated with like the blog era of music writing. I feel like Arctic Monkeys were too, but on the other side of the pond. And they've been able to grow and maintain this career, although again, Vampire Weekend is a lot less prolific than they used to be. Does that comparison make sense? Just in terms of like the arc of the career, not musically so.

I think possibly, but I think Arctic monkeys have accumulated such a bigger discography that I think they, like, Vampire Weekend hasn't like crossed over to that point, like, where they, if they release an album, it isn't an automatic contender to be an album of the year at like, you know, indie websites or whatever. I don't think the Arctic, I don't think Vampire Weekend has crossed to that point yet. But I think, I think in enough time, they probably could. I think See, I would say I think Vampire Weekend is actually more critically acclaimed than Arctic Monkeys, but Vampire Weekend doesn't have

a song like, do I want to know that's been streamed 1.5 billion times? You know, they don't have the commercial track record that Arctic Monkeys do. And I don't know how well Vampire Weekend does overseas either. Again, I think our listener here is correct. Chris in Northern Ireland saying, you know, and I hadn't taken that into account,

but like they're like a big Latin American market, you know, just other markets all around the world, I'm sure are feeding those streaming numbers, you know, and making them so big. So yeah, it's an interesting thing. I'm excited to hear that record.

I like that first single that dropped this week. I kind of like it too. Like you said, it is very, it's like a loungey pop song. It is similar in some ways to the previous record, a Tranquility Base Hotel and Casino, although it doesn't have the sci-fi element of that record. I am curious if they are going to be returning

on other places on the new record to that leather-jacketed sound of AM. Are there going to be any, like, riffy type rockers on there? Because there were none on Tranquility Base. I feel like there needs to be some on the car. We need some red meat here for the lads out there. The single, by the way, is called There Better Be a Mirrorball. You can hear it anywhere you stream music. Go check it out.

I love that. Check it out everywhere we're streaming music. Now, like we're doing the drive time radio. I'm glad we're talking about Queens of the Stone Age. Because that sound like a real like songs for the death type interlude right there. Well, before we get to that, we need to talk. about the biggest indie news of the week, which is the allegations against Winn Butler of Arcade Fire. And I'm going to read here from The Guardian for those who are unaware of this news.

An investigation by the U.S. music publication Pitchfork found that four individuals aged between 18 and 23 at the time, alleged that Butler behaved inappropriately. The three women and one gender fluid person accused the singer of exploiting his fame and their fandom, including sending unwanted sexual messages during incidents that occurred between 2015 and 2020 when Butler was between 34 and 39. Butler said the relationships were consensual, quote, it is deeply revisionist and frankly just wrong for anyone to suggest otherwise. If you haven't read the pitchfork story, which dropped last weekend, I recommend doing so. It's a pretty gross story. It's very specific.

It outlines behavior that seem to have been, there seemed to have been a pattern of this with Win Butler for several years. He talks also in that story about substance abuse, and apparently he's in recovery, and I don't know, I think he's making a connection to his behavior at the time to his drinking. So, I mean, what's outlined in the story, again, I think it speaks for itself. It's a very damning story. I think Win Butler's reaction to it in Arcade Fire in general hasn't been great.

I'll just say it that way. I am curious to talk to you, Ian, about where do you think this puts Arcade Fire moving forward? Do you think this is something that they can recover from? Are they canceled to use an overused word at this point? Where do you think the ban goes from here? I think we have to stay first and foremost that, like, as you said, the accusations or the allegations, whatever you wanted to call them, like, they're pretty damning. They're pretty specific.

It's like it pretty clearly represents like a pattern that was going on over the span of several years and whether or not it was due to, you know, alcohol or drug abuse or depression or just like straight up midlife crisis. I think we can say that like this stuff doesn't seem to be coming out of anywhere. And so like I just want to say that first and foremost before we get into, you know, the question of like what this means for arcade fire. You know, I, I hate bringing up this example, but I think it's instructive. Like in this new venue that opened up in San Francisco, and Diego were getting like a Ryan Adams show. Apparently he's like selling out venues across the country. And I feel like the response to like his allegations were like much more strong, perhaps

because his music wasn't as good lately. But, you know, with Arcade Fire, I think if they, they played a show, I think, the night before we recorded this episode in Ireland. And for a band that, Dublin. Yeah. And for a band that seems to like want to tweet through it for lack of a better term, like you probably couldn't come up with like a better scenario. They're going to be in Europe for a couple of weeks, maybe even a few months. Their first date is in October,

late October in D.C. First American date. Yes. The first American date. And I think that gives them enough time to like get a temperature check. Like I think with this band even prior to all this like during everything now, during Reflector even, they I think had maybe

an overestimated view of themselves. Like, I recall during like the Reflector era, they would play these big venues and not really fill them. And I'm looking at the tour itinerary. There were like a lot of hockey arenas going on. But also they have like Beck playing with them, like doing an acoustic show. Yeah, I think with, I think with Arcade Fire here, I don't know. You made a point like while we were discussing this that like people seem to want this like sports.

like the version of like Roger Goodall, like laying down some sort of like suspension for arcade fire, like what's appropriate for them to show penance. And at the end of the day, it's just going to be about like whether Arcade Fire fans give a shit. And I think it seems like the band is relying on the fact that the people will stick by them. As a matter of fact, I'm looking at this article that you shared. The band left the stage to a clip of Ben E. King's by me. Another possible allusion to the situation. Yeah, let me read this. So, you know, we're talking about how people are going to react to Arcade Fire. If this is a band that people are still going to want to buy their records

or stream their songs or buy concert tickets. And there's this Guardian story about the tour kickoff in Dublin. There was a reporter there. And he writes that before the show, like Will, like, when Butler showed up and he like walked around the arena and he was greeting surprised and delighted fans. One woman who just minutes earlier had learned of the allegations via Twitter

posed with the Grammy winner for selfies, beaming. She would read about the allegations after the show, she said. Asked by the Guardian if you would address the controversy from the stage. Butler paused shrugged, offered a handshake and walked away.

And then later in the story, it says, that they didn't really address the allegations from the stage. And then, like you said, at the end of the show, Arcade Fire walked off to Benny King Stand By Me, which is... Not a band known for its subtlety. Well, yeah, Arcade Fire, who, in the best of times, could cause eye-rolls by what they did,

this is pretty eye-roly for me. And, like, look, him going into the audience to pose for selfies. That's an obvious PR move. I don't know. That makes me feel like a little icky seeing that. But you know, you made this point about cancelization and fan bases. And I was recently interviewed for the Wall Street Journal for a story. It was about Ryan Adams. And I think Morgan Wallen was covered in that story, just musicians who have come back from controversies. And the point I made in that story was that

only the people who like you can cancel you. The people that buy your stuff, go to your shows, hardcore fans, they're the ones who matter. It doesn't really matter people on social media who didn't like your band anyway

if they're condemning you. It really has to come down to your constituency. And with this Dublin show, I'm sure there were fans who didn't show up. because of this. How many there were, we don't know, how many there will be in the long run like that,

it is unclear. But, you know, in terms of the media, I mean, I think the Ryan Adams example is instructive here, because Adams was somebody who, for the longest time, if he put out a record, it would get covered. And then after 2019,

when that New York Times story came out, there's been an informal blackout. essentially on writing about Ryan Adams. I don't think I've seen a review of anything he's done in the last three years. And he's put out several records. But, you know, publications aren't even writing about those records to slam them. You know, they're just ignoring those records. And I think with Arcade Fire, I don't know if it'll be that extreme,

but I would suspect that there will be something similar that happens with, whatever they do moving forward. And I think, you know, you can make the case. Certainly, I think this is true of Ryan Adams. I think it's probably also true to a degree with Arcade Fire, that these are acts that are past their prime creatively and also commercially. So there is some justification in a sense to ignore them on that level. And then if there's this baggage where media people feel like they're platforming

or giving a signal boost to people who have behaved badly in the past, you know, that will just add further justification to that sort of informal blackout. So that is what I suspect, the punishment, and I'm using quote marks for that, will be for Arcade Fire. But it does remain to be seen if fans care about this. You know, that's always the question here.

And it seems like there will always be fans who do not care. You know, who will show up. And it'll just be up to Arcade Fire if, like, those, if there's enough of those people to continue. Yeah, I mean, they've already been, I think a temporary band or like an indefinite band on Canadian radio. Again, like how much they were getting played on Canadian radio. I'm not sure.

I think, though, that, like, with this, with this particular controversy, the thing that sparks it a lot more than like say what happened with like Ryan Adams who even their you know their fans would kind of acknowledge this guys get kind of a drunken like creep in like his music a lot like it clashes against the image that arcade fire puts forth you know about pious and particularly this uplift of we and so forth and I don't know it's like it sounds like you know Will but or sorry Win Butler was like going through some like really serious shit and the fact that like the the records like don't address it at all and like go kind of completely against it to present this false sort of narrative about what the band's mind state.

I think makes it a offensive is like the wrong word, but it just sort of reminds me like what happened with like Pine Grove that like people feel a lot more outraged about this stuff when it come when it directly contradicts the image they put forth on on record. Yeah. I mean, I do think it's a little offensive because not. only is this a pious band, but especially on recent records, they've been a pretty judgmental band. True.

You know, we talk about the record Everything Now, and there's lyrics on there where Win Butler is talking about young women who are online too much because they want to be famous. And here he is, behind the scenes, while that record is being made, picking up on young women that are fans of his band. I mean, there is an obvious disconnect there. that is like pretty gross. It's like awful. And I feel like if you listen to that record now,

how can you not think about all this other stuff that we now know was going on while he was making that? I mean, obviously some people, again, will not care. But I do feel like because of how he has presented himself publicly, it just makes this stuff that much worse. You know, it's bad enough on its own.

But to know that this guy who has taken a judgmental stance on culture was also acting in a pretty contrary way, I don't know. It's just something that it just adds to the overall unsavoryness of this story. I think we also need to point out that I saw that they hired Anthony Wiener's PR team. So if you're talking about like kind of like the crisis PR manager, that's you know that's it's thinking like oh yeah let's go to let's go to that guy that guy knows what to do with it so yeah the whole the whole deal the whole deal is just like I don't know it I didn't need a reason to not really care about arcade fire but yeah it's uh it I don't I don't want to say it remains interesting you know to see where it goes here because this is like really it's gross behavior

and you know we I don't want to turn this into like a fantasy sports kind of thing but I do think that just on an objective level, I'm very curious to see where a band at this juncture of their career, how their fans react to it. So, okay, so we're going to go from Win Butler here to talking about a totally unproblematic band, Queens of the Stone Age, and their record, Songs for the Deaf, which turned 20 earlier this week. We could have talked about this in our previous episode, but I think it slipped by us that this anniversary was coming up. So we just wanted to talk about this album a little bit. Because I know for me, you know, this was an album that took over my life in 2002 when it came out in August.

And, like, I wanted to live inside of this record, I think, for a long time, which was probably not great in retrospect, but at the time was a lot of fun. Like this was definitely a record that I enjoyed partying to back then. And I did a lot of partying back then. So there was a lot of drinking, a lot of drug use during this record. And when I listen to it now, that's what I think about. And I still have a lot of affection for this record. I think because of the memories I have associated with it. And also I think it's just a really great album musically.

but it is interesting when you have those albums in your past that are associated with like maybe not a great time in your life because that wasn't really a great time in my life I don't think I was super happy at that time but there is like a romantic thing that you project onto those periods of your life when you are outside of them

and Songs for the Deaf it's like one of those albums for me as much as any record really in my life, like really marks a moment in time. Yeah, I mean, you want to talk about, like, being down bad. Yeah, August 2002, I was, like, fresh out of graduating from college, had no real direction in my life, like, was living at home trying to get my feet on the ground. And August was just such a phenomenal month for, like, just being really down bad albums.

Like, bright eyes lifted came out. Like, that was the album that, you know, made me think that my life was over at 22, like a rush of blood to the head. That's a song, you know, album I'd listen to when I was like sad about women, turn on the bright lights, like that was an album that I listened to when I was sad in New York. And then songs for the death, that, I don't want to say that album was like a mood booster because like you were saying, it's like a really kind of dirty and nasty, you know, album, if I want to like live inside it, like just kind of not shower for a week straight. But nonetheless, it's like when you're drinking in your parents' garage, like,

no one knows makes it sound like a higher spiritual calling. And when I listen to this album now, I can look back with, you know, some sympathy for the person who experienced that age. Like, I have to remember that when like these, when I see like 22 year olds or whatever post being like kind of annoying on Twitter about like, say, Phoebe Bridgers or whoever, it's like, if I had Twitter back when Queens of the Stone Age came out,

like God fucking knows what I would have said. Listen to it recently. Yeah, it would have been bad. Yeah, listen to it recently, and it's, you know what, it still holds up really well. I made kind of a controversial statement that I would probably cut three songs from it, you know, probably towards the end. I don't think that's controversial. Okay. I think a lot of people would probably side with you on that. I just, I wouldn't cut anything just because it's the album, it's how I know the album.

and some albums become such a part of your life that you embrace the weaknesses of it. So, yeah, I can acknowledge maybe God is on the radio. God is on the radio. It's on the record. But, you know, I wouldn't cut anything from Exile on Main Street either. You know, I like the weaker songs on that record because it's part of the experience. And also, like Exile and Main Street, songs for the Deaf, is a big party record for me. So if you're drinking, as you say, in your parents' garage,

A longer record means that you can just drink longer. So the bug is the feature in this instance. Yeah. I mean, in the time since, though, like 2002 on, has there been like as good of like a dirt bag drinking rock record than this one or something that even comes close? Yeah, I mean, the only thing I could think of would be like some of those Mastodon albums, although even that is like a while ago now,

like Leviathan or Blood Mountain. You know, those occupy a similar lane for me. But yeah, I mean, that kind of record, it's become a rarity because, you know, they were classified at the time as stoner metal. And I feel like most metal now, it doesn't really sit in that lane. The difference with Queens of the Stone Age

is that Josh Homey has like a really, pretty voice. And most metal or hard rock singers are screamers now. They don't have that sweet element to go with the sleaze. And I think that was always the secret sauce

for Queens of the Stone Age, that there was the sweetness there that went with the sleazy and the evilness of the music. And most people just want to go evil now. So that to me is like what separates them and makes that a strong record.

even with, again, all of Josh Ome's baggage now. And Nick Oliveri, yeah. Nick Oliveri, yeah, that's a whole other nightmare right there. Yeah, again, like this, yeah, particularly this lineup. I mean, like Nick Oliveri was so problematic that he got kicked out of Queens of the Stone Age. Yeah. You know, that, that says it all right there. Dave Mustaine of our era, like getting kicked out of Metallica for being too drunk.

Yeah, or the Stephen Adler of Queens of the Stone Age. But again, I feel like we have to tip our cap to that record. It was a big record for both of us. So songs for the deaf. We would definitely put that in the Indycast Hall of Fame, maybe in its own wing. It's like the Queens of the Stone Age wing of the Indycast Hall of Fame, although that record's probably too famous to be in the hall, but maybe you would get in any way.

Let's talk about the new muse album. Let's talk about the new muse album, man. because people, I think we've gotten more on Twitter requests to talk about the second, to do a 10th anniversary second law episode than like literally anything else. Yeah, well, we, that used to be a bit on the show and then we stopped talking about it, but we still get listeners who want us to talk about it. And that is coming up in September, by the way, the 10th anniversary of the second law. So we will have to talk about that, I think.

Absolutely will. The people demand it. It is the, hold on here, the will of the people that we talk about the second. Okay, I'm going to clock off. That was maybe like the dumbest joke I've ever made in the history of Indycast. Like, save this for posterity. Well, the episode's not over yet, so don't call it too early. There could be dumber jokes ahead of us.

Will of the people, by the way, is the name of the new muse record. It's the ninth muse record. It's been described by the band as a greatest hits album of new songs. I love that. I love the boldness of that. And look, I, this is a band that I like talking about because,

well, one, I think that they were a legitimately good band in the Otts. I'll defend Otts-era muse. Records like Origin of Symmetry. I have a really soft spot for black holes in Revelations. Knights of Sedonia was definitely a song I blasted in the car in the mid-a-auts,

on many occasions. And in recent years, I feel like there's been this knowing campiness that has settled in with music. And there's always been some element of that with this band. Even like, you know, you see the video for Knights of Sedonia. Very campy video. I mean, they're in on the joke. But I feel like it's gotten more extreme

and it's starting to feel sticky with this band. And, you know, this new record, it feels to me like this is basically a COVID-era record and an anti-shutdown record, although it's not explicitly that. It's a record that's about striking against over-controlling governments.

Governments that want to crush people. You know, there's a song, the second song on the record is called compliance. And it kind of reminds me of like, this is a very specific reference that no one will care about aside from a few people, but like, you know, like when Sticks

did their concept record in the early 80s like with the song Mr. Robato on it and I can't remember Kilroy was here. I cannot fucking believe I know that off the top. Like, holy shit. You got that. Killow was here.

That's the only sticks album I know of because of Mr. Robato. So, yeah. Okay. That's great. sticks deep dive. That's amazing. I love that you were able to pull that out of the ether. This record

it gives me big Kilroy was here vibes where it's this arena rock band that is incorporating electronic elements in this very ham-fisted concept about government control

and you can't take it seriously really but I also can't hate it. There's something about this band that I just can't not bring myself to hate. I know a lot of people despise this band. But whenever they put out a record, I always feel compelled to check it out. Because there's just something about it.

I guess because I used to like it. And also because any band that's this ridiculous in 2022, I just find myself wanting to like it much more than I actually end up liking it. Yeah, I think that with every now and again, you'll get like movie Twitter talking about like how Michael Bay is actually a genius and, you know, maybe like because after like consuming like A24 type movies for so long, you just want to see shit blow up. And, you know, I think for a long time, muse, maybe, I don't know, if they presented themselves as like a smart band, maybe like they saw themselves as like rush even though they were more like sticks. think. And at a certain point, I think it was maybe, you know, after drones, which was their album in 2015, which the cover is just unfucking believable. It's like a joystick, like a man being played like a joystick. I think that like they're not that dumb. And I think when they realize

that like they could be in on the joke, I think you saw like a real turning point as far as like the way, you know, critics treat that band. Because, you know, once a band starts, making fun of themselves, it's like no fun to beat them to the punch anymore. And so, you know, like, I think with this record, the first song is like a pretty obvious the beautiful people rip off. The last song is called... Yeah, it's egregious. The last song is called... It's an egregious ripoff.

The last song is called We Are Fucking Ficked. Yeah. And he describes it on Apple Music. I read his... I just got to bring up this a very, very, very deep. I remember I read double XL magazine back in 2000 when big timers dropped. I got that work and you would hear, you would read like a baby and Manny Fresh explain the meaning behind the songs.

Like all their songs are about cars and money and you would just try to see them like struggle to get some deeper meaning. We are fucking fucked as described by Matt Bellamy as this, all these natural disasters, all this stuff that's happening, civil unrest, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that is one of our great thinkers, one of our leading minds of rock music. And you know what? Like, I just love beholding this album just in terms of like, you know, if you've ever like played an acoustic guitar and maybe tried to put a song together, like, how does this

stuff actually happen? You know, like, how do you get like people in the studio together and conceive of a song like we are fucking fucked and like, yeah, this is what we were going for right here. It's just really, it's like almost watching like the rehearsal to use that reference again and just to say like, how did they do that, you know, just objectively. Yeah, there is a combination with Muse where, again, there's a knowing campiness to it. At the same time, if you're a certain kind of person, this is a band that you can really take super seriously. Like one person who loves Muse is Glenn Beck. I don't know if you've seen this, but there's a video of Glenn Beck.

You can look it up on YouTube where he just talks about how profound muses. And it's because of this strain of anti-government rhetoric in their songs and how you have to stand up against forces that are trying to control you. So if you have someone like Glenn Beck, who likes to stroke his chin a lot and talk about the same things that interest Matthew Bellamy, you know, there is this confluence of like dumb, smart guys or smart dumb guys. I'm not sure exactly how that balances, but I'm sure there's like a strain of like libertarian who just loves Mews. And it's probably like that constituency is probably like, this is like the greatest band in the world.

They're just asking questions, Mews. There's just asking questions. And again, you know, I can't quit them. I'm sure there's people who are like, why are you talking about Muse? Which, by the way, this is going to be like one of the biggest rock records of the year. So that's another reason to talk about it. But I don't know. They're a band where like if they put out a record, I'm always going to feel inclined to listen to it.

Even if I know it's kind of like there's going to be stupidity on the record that's going to blow my mind. I guess, again, that's just like part of what I love about it. I just can't. Yeah. I mean, like we, I would imagine. that you're like me and consider like this is spinal tap one of the greatest movies of all time i mean yeah oh yeah like you just kind of have to love a band that's doing it in real time and also matt bellamy if you're listening which you know is i don't think that's like completely

out of the the realm of possibility i just want to see like where he's at with the whole we want magnets on stage like we want to float using magnets that was like a big thing i think during the drones era and um yeah if if he can't do it it who can. Like, I'm just, I kind of want to see a muse show. Like, I just really want to see what they do on stage. I haven't seen them live. I bet they'd be an amazing arena band. So, we, I feel like we're talking ourselves out of caring about muse, and then at the end here, we're talking ourselves back into it. It's just a very dysfunctional relationship that I think we both have with this band. Let's go to the opposite end of the spectrum from Muse here. To a guy

who I've been listening to a lot, his name is Mo Trooper. He's a Portland-based singer-songwriter. He put out a record that's out today. It's called MTV. And I love it. I think it's a really great record. And it's interesting with him because he's had, I think, a fairly long career.

He's been putting out records and also playing in other people's bands. He came onto my radar in 2021 when he put on a record called Dilettante, which has 28 songs that go by in 50 minutes. And if that's giving you guided by voices vibes, then it should, because there is a GBV element to what Mo does. He writes very short songs. He records them in a lo-fi manner. They're a little bit sloppy. But at the same time, he is a really, I think, master of writing pop hooks. There's a lot of songcraft to his songs, even if they're presented again in this sort of lo-fi shambling manner. And it got me thinking about the state of power pop in 2022

because this is a power pop record. I mentioned GBV before, but the reference points on this record are just classic power pop. It's Beatles, it's Beach Boys, it's Big Star, there's some teenage fan club elements in there as well. And it made me think about it. about another record that's coming out soon by a band from Philadelphia called Second Grade. And that record is called Easy Listening. It comes out September 30th. We'll talk about it more next

month. But that's one of my favorite albums of 2022. And in my mind anyway, it's very much a companion record to this Mo Trooper record, because they are drawing from a similar well. Second Grade has a similar lofi aesthetic to them, although easy listening is a slicker sounding record. Those of you out there, I don't know if I've talked about this album on this show, but second grade put out an album in 2020 called Hit to Hit. And that's another album that has a lot of songs. I think it's 24 songs or thereabouts. Very short, but again, very hooky. They come in, deliver a verse, a chorus, and then they get out of the way. I was wondering if you've heard this Motroper record, what you think about it, and if you have any feelings about PowerPops. You have any

feelings about power pop because it does seem like there's like a bumper crop here of like really great power pop records and we don't have that every year there's always power pop happening somewhere but i feel like these two records are like really good examples of the genre i think that power pop has been this uh subgenre that's been on the radar for a while for me because every every few years there's like this exodus of hardcore bands into some other sort of genre like there were hardcore bands that like wanted to sound like grunge back in like say 2013 and then Bruce Springsteen and shoe gaze and then all of a sudden there were like a lot of hardcore bands that like wanted to sound like teenage fan club and so you would get a

lot of bandwagoness talk like let me just be abundantly clear like when hardcore bands start trying to sound like teenage fan club it's usually pretty bad because all it means is that they're just like kind of slowing down the tempo and adding an acoustic guitar and they don't really have the hooks. But with this kind of newer crop of things, I think it gets more into not like the power pop as like, you know, as like teenage fan club or like Fountains of Wayne, but more the kind of guided by voices, you know, side of things, which I find to be inherently interesting because there are two types of power pop, I think.

There's like the craftsmanship type with like, you know, I see that as kind of associated with like, you know, Largo in L.A. That's like where you talk about Adam Schlesinger, you know, rest in peace. But, you know, Fountains of Wayne for all their great songs. They wrote some like really fucking terrible songs as well.

And there's like, you know, jellyfish or bands like that who, that stuff just leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I just think of like being harangued by critics who can't figure out like why Matthew Sweet isn't as big as, say, Nirvana. Yeah, but like, No one's doing it anymore, though.

I mean, like, Power Pop, this is old. I feel like it's as niche as it ever has been. You know, like, we are probably among the handful of critics who would even talk about this. You know, probably because we come from a generation where there was a Fountains of Wayne or a Jellyfish or Matthew Sweet. And by the way, I like all those groups. I also have to shout out Sloan, who I think is probably the best Power Pop out, like, band of like, like modern times. They have a new album coming out, I believe in October. They've released some singles this month that are really quite good. I mean, they're a very consistent band. I love the

fact that they're still around. I think the 30th anniversary of their first record, which is smeared, came out in 92. I think it comes out. I think the anniversary is around the same time that the new album comes out. So they've been around for a long time. But it's interesting you bring up guided by voices and, you know, I was talking about them too. You know, they aren't really a power pop band in my mind. I mean, they have elements of that in their sound, but what's interesting about people like Motroper and second grade is that I think they're taking the aesthetic of Guided By Voices

and applying it to Power Pop. And I think what that does, which is good, is it just makes this music a little less precious and a little less shiny and slick. I think the downfall of this kind of music is that sometimes it can be a little, little too straightforward and it ends up sounding like the Friends theme song, you know, which I kind of, I mean, I don't mind that's, that's by the Rembrandts, their power pop band, they have some other good songs,

but, you know, it gets into that vein and it gets like a little hard to take, but on like the Motroper record in particular, he's writing really good songs, but they also sound pretty fucked up and noisy. And I think that combination of noise and melody, I mean, that's the peanut, and jelly of indie rock. I mean, that's, those things always go together well. And he's able to do that, I think, in a really, like, real way that's, that's effective. With second grade, they do that too, although I think their new record is a little more on the melody side. And because the melodies are so good, that record, I think, just works like gangbusters. So I'm excited to talk more about that record when it comes out next month. But, yeah, this Motroper record, get him,

on your radar if you like this kind of music because MTV, really good record. I think Dilaton is really good. He has other albums that came up before that, but I can definitely stump for those, these last two. They're the ones I've listened to the most and I've really enjoyed them. I'm going to have to throw in Daisy as well, like DAZY. Last year they put out a record, I believe, on cassette or something like that. And hopefully they have a new record coming out as well. It was maximum blast super loud, the first 24 songs. This

came out last year and a lot more kind of punkish, but if you like second grade motroper, that's another band. I've got my eye on as well. Do you think that just to go into the email realm here for a second, do you think a band like Joyce Manor

has any power pop? They're called pop punk, but I feel like especially as they've evolved, that It feels less punk and more power pop at times to me. Absolutely. I think million dollars to kill me was their attempt at making a big star record. Like, you know, when I interviewed Barry Johnson, Joyce Manor, he said that explicitly.

Also, when we talked, like back when I interviewed him, I think in 2014, when they put out Never Hung Over again, we talked about the guided by voices comparison. You know, they're a band that they like. And, you know, the difference is that, you know, guided by voices songs are 25 songs long. and Joyce Manor albums are 10 songs long. And I'm like, you know, what do you think about like guided by voices and the fact they put so many songs? He's like, don't you wish they wouldn't? So he described this albums as like guided by voices if they like kept all just like the really great song. So I'd absolutely, they're huge teenage fan club fans.

They love Weezer. Like they're definitely Power Pop. But I think that a million dollars to kill me was kind of indicative of like how, you know, punk bands if they're going to do Power Pop, they need to keep much more punk in it. And that's what they did on 40 ounces to Fresno, which I think is a stronger record. Well, and you made that point earlier about hardcore bands that start doing

teenage fan club sound-alikes and how a lot of it doesn't work well. I feel like we have to shout out Tony Molina. Oh, yeah. Who is the ultimate example of that and doing it great. Yes. You know, and I feel like he's the one

that is the most successful with that. And his songs are super short. I mean, you know, he makes Joyce Manor songs feel like November rain or something. Because he'll do like an 11 second song where it's just

a cool riff and maybe like the trace of a chorus and then he's getting out. So he's really been a master of brevity but we should mention that he put on a record earlier this year called In the Fade and I'm just looking this up. It's 14 songs

and it's probably about 14 minutes long. No, it's 14 songs, 18 minutes long. But that's a record worth checking out if you are into the new sound of power pop in 2022. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week.

Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so, you know, we got a little bit of a blowback for me always pointing out what, like, unlistenable emo in Recommendation Corner. No, that was one grumpy guy who said he unsubscribed.

We got a piece of hate mail this week from a guy who said he was not listening to the show because there's too much gossip, too much big time indie, and he also took a shot at unlistenable emo records that you're shouting out in Recommendation Corner.

I do not think that's representative of Indycast Nation. So please continue. Do not let the haters stop. you. Yeah, you know, we're getting on our amused thing. It's like, you know, they want to control you. You got to fight back. Listen to will of the people. But yeah, this, an album that comes out today, as a matter of fact. What I've been looking forward to for a while, it's a band called the Callist Dow Boys. Like, let that sink in. There's the joke in there. And they're an

Atlanta band who made a pretty big impression in 2019, I believe, with Die on Mars. And their new album is called Celebrity Therapist. You might notice that the cover looks a little bit like Mars Volta's Francis the Mute. There is a little bit of Mars Valta going on, but I'd say that this record is probably the biggest and best thing to happen in the realms of like metal core or math core. You know, these pretty uncool offshoots of metal that like no one in the indie realm tends to touch with the 10 foot pole. I mean, even the quote unquote cool stuff like Dillinger escape plan and Batchu put out a new song recently, their first in 20 years. They also, I just got a shot, like, look up the chariot live Russia.

That's to get an idea of like what this band's into. But, you know, this is an acquired taste, but this band, you know, they have some system of a down and faith no more type melody going on, maybe some Mr. Bungle as well. But it's a very dense record. It's a very interesting record in terms of like the instrumentation. and it's very chaotic in a way that I find very appealing. But, you know, if you care about like the more interesting sides of metal in 2022,

I feel like this is going to be something that, you know, gets a real cult audience around us. And you know what? Like with metal, we were talking about before how there's no sweetness in metal, like as in Queens of the Stone Age. Like I feel like so much metal these days is like kind of niche. This is niche too in a way. but I think it's got a bit more crossover potential than most stuff in this realm. So Calistow Boys, check it out. So I want to talk about a record that came out a few weeks ago,

but I've been listening to a lot this month. And it's a self-titled record by a Chicago guitarist named Eli Winter. And, you know, there's a lot of instrumental guitar records that come out over the course of any particular year. And I end up sampling a lot of them because I, like that kind of music, but I find that even if I'm enjoying them in the moment, that they don't really stick with me. Because most records in this vein really feel like collections of jams more than full-fledged songs. And there's only, I think, a handful of people, and I would list

people like Steve Gunn, Rowley Walker, William Tyler, artists like that. I think that they are the best at those kind of records at this moment of time, but most of them, I think, kind of come and go without leaving much of an impression. Eli Winter, I think, has a potential to join that class of like top flight instrumental guitarists who are really good songwriters as well as being great players. And I should mention that this record does have the benefit of like a really good supporting cast, including some of the people I've already mentioned. Routy Walker plays on this record, David Grubbs, Yasmin Williams, another great guitar

player who put out one of my favorite albums of 2021. But Eli, I think, again, I think he's a really good songwriter, and there are six songs on this record, and I think the journey that this album takes you on, which

goes from very beautiful finger-picking to just discordant noise and feedback, it really does amount to something greater than the sum of its parts. Again, it feels like compositions, not just jams. And I think for this time of the year in particular, you know, as we're winding down with summer, this is a record that you're going to want to play when you're hanging out, watching the sunset, and just reflecting on the

day. This seems like a perfect soundtrack for that. So again, his name is Eli Winter. The record is called Eli Winter, and I think you should check it out. Yeah, I heard that, I enjoyed this record as well. I heard it. I'm like, yeah, this is going to end up in Steve's recommendation corner at some point. But at the end of the summer, like, we're record, like, as we record, it's going to be like 92 degrees today in San Diego. And like, I got no AC on while I'm recording. So like, I'm like going to listen to this album while I'll sweat my ass off. See how that goes. That will work. It'll cool you off. Well, thank you so much for listening to this episode of Indicast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music

recommendations, sign up for the Indie mixtape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.