Indiecast - Arctic Monkeys, Robot Rappers, and The End Of Starred Reviews

Episode Date: August 26, 2022

If a band has been around for over a decade, they're bound to have at least one polarizing album in their discography. Arctic Monkeys' last album Tranquility Base Hotel And Casino fell into that category, though many fans and critics revered it. On this week's Indiecast episode, hosts Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen revisit Arctic Monkeys' legacy after the band announced their return and upcoming album, The Car (17:54).Of course, there was plenty of controversy in music news this week for Indiecast to unpack. The first came in the form of a Harry Styles cover story in which he was lauded the "new king of pop," a title that instantly outraged Michael Jackson's fans and family (:28). The main headline-making story this week was about the intersection of AI and music. Capitol Records dropped the recently signed AI artist FN Meka, a virtual "robot rapper" with racist overtones that ignited a greater conversation about ethics in the AI world (25:09).In this week's Recommendation Corner (54:01), Ian gives props to Maryland band Pianos Become The Teeth, whose recent album leans into moody Radiohead influences. Meanwhile, Steven talks about his recent profile of Bartees Strange.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 103 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talked about the Arctic Monkeys, problematic robot rappers, and Rolling Stone ditching its star rating for reviews. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host.

He's as excited to make fun of Harry Styles as I am. Ian Cohen, Ian, Ian, how are you? Yeah, shifting from the 1975 to Harry Styles, we are doing the most indie of the indie cast. But making fun of Harry Styles, I think, is pretty indie rock. Absolutely. That's very indie rock. Yeah. Which we're going to do this week, because there was a story that came out about him.

It was Rolling Stone cover story. It was a global cover story because they have additions all over the world. And I want to talk about this story just because I feel like there's a backlash brewing. against this guy and I'm excited because I feel like it's overdue. Yeah, I think that I guess like in some ways, like the music Twitter backlash is really the only

like, it's really the only response we can get to like these just intractable pop stars. But, you know, this article that you mentioned my favorite detail about the bunch is that it talks about how he showers after his shows and it's presented as, this like magical spiritual journey. Now, like, I mean, I only shower before work.

So I guess Harry Styles is upending, you know, traditional ideas of mass. See, I'm with Stiles. I like to shower after, after, you know, he's on stage at Masson Square Garden. I'm in my office writing about albums. But I like to shower at the end of the day just to remind myself that I'm a human being. I have to wash off. Like I said before, the salt mines of the music writing world.

So I'm with Harry Stiles, but you're a pre-work shower guy. Pre-work shower guy. And, you know, I think we just have to point out to our listeners who haven't read this article or have seen the backlash. Like, this is indicative of, you know, not just this writer, but like I think every single Harry Stiles profile. And we've talked about this in previous episodes. It's like a writer trying to principal skinner these nothing burgers into an unforgettable luncheon, you know? Like, when you interview. someone of that level, you know, as a writer, it's tough because, like, on the one hand,

this is, like, the biggest byline you've ever gotten. And secondly, it's somebody who's not going to give you anything remotely interesting to talk about. So you kind of have to take whatever you can and inflate that to be, oh, this is the reason it's a cover story. The closest I can relate is when I interviewed Beck for NME. It was, like, in the Capitol Records building, two publicists was with us, just unfathomably dull. And I just remember, like, trying to seize a anything remotely interesting to inflate into

like a foundational part of the story. Yes, like Beck is picking at his vegetable plate in much the same way that he picked at different styles of music in the 1990s. God, damn it. Where was that in 2014? That was genius. Fuck. But yeah, any little detail

about what they're eating has to be extrapolated into like a deep comment about their life and career. Because, yeah, you don't have much time. These people are very stage managed. So the situation is set up for them not to do anything interesting because if it's interesting, it might lead to a backlash. And I'll say, like, with this article, I don't want to overstate it.

A lot of people love this article. Obviously, Harry Stiles is a very popular singer, a very active fan community. But I did get some enjoyment from pockets of the internet that were upset about this article. and there were two pockets in particular that were entertaining for me. One was Michael Jackson fans got mad at Harry Styles because on the British edition of Rolling Stone, the cover called him The New King of Pop. Hold on one second. Does that mean like the American version or like the Thai version or the South African version?

It says something else on the cover? I think so. I think it was only in the UK where he was called the New King. of pop. In America, I'm pretty sure they said something else. That's very UK press. That's very enemy to just say, to be like overstated.

Well, in England, you know, they have well, I guess they don't have a king, they have a queen. I guess here we would call him like the president of pop. That sounds so lame. The secretary of state of pop. You know, that's because that's, we don't believe in royalty in this country.

I mean, Michael Jackson gave himself that title. The King of Pop, I think he started calling himself that around like the history era in the mid-90s. So it was part of the marketing for that album. And on the cover of that album, there's like a towering statue of Michael Jackson. So he was really feeling regal at that point. I think that was after his first trial, too, for child molestation charges. But anyway, that aside, there were Michael Jackson fans upset, which was funny, but even funnier for me.

Like some of the funniest tweets I read this week were from members of the online gay community who were dragging Harry Styles because there's a quote in that story where he's talking about one of his upcoming films and there's a gay relationship in the film and he was saying that gay sex scenes in most films are just about two guys going at it and they don't account for the tenderness of these relationships. And there were all these people in the online gay community quote tweeting this and saying, why is this guy talking about the right way to do gay sex scenes?

And I think that quote was taken out of context to be fair. Almost certainly. Yeah. You know, so that was a little unfair. But I do think it's interesting with Harry Stiles that in all these articles that have been written about him, and I think including the most recent one, he's very coy about his sexuality. Like he doesn't put a label on himself.

And I think the generous way to read that would be. to say, like, this is a progressive standpoint. You know, he doesn't believe in labels or, like, a sexual binary type thing. Sexuality is fluid. All that stuff. I think the more cynical way and perhaps more accurate way to read that is that Harry Stiles is in the closet, but in the closet as just another vanilla heterosexual dude. Because, like, if you look, I went researching on page six of the New York Post for,

this. They ran a list, I think, last year of his ex-girls. His ex is going back to 2011. And, like, they're all models and actresses for the most part. And that includes, like, Taylor Swift is in there, Kendall Jenner and a bunch of other women. Of course, he's currently dating Olivia Wilde. And look, maybe he has other relationships in his private life that aren't public and we don't know about them. I'm not judging that. I'm not judging him for dating actresses and models. I mean, he's a charismatic, good-looking pop star. Hats off to you. But, you know, you and I are both vanilla heterosexual dudes.

And I think that the vanilla heterosexual dude community could use some positive representation. So why can't Harry Styles come out and say, I'm another vanilla heterosexual dude. I stand with my vanilla brothers publicly shoulder to shoulder. I think that would be a good move on his part. But no, he's not doing that for whatever reason. And I don't want to speculate on that too much. I mean, maybe because it is a vanilla thing to be. It's not as interesting, perhaps.

I don't know. I don't want to speculate too much. I mean, do you want to speculate on that? Yeah, it's about time someone represented for us, vanilla heterosexual guys. We could use it. No, I'm just playing. But I think that there was a great, my favorite quote of his,

like when you say like playing coy about his sexuality and every single article is like Harry Styles opens up he says sometimes sometimes people say you've only publicly been with women and I don't think I publicly been with anyone if someone chooses to take a picture with you as someone that doesn't mean you're choosing to have a public relationship or something what you know like this man should go to law school or something that is just such a incredible non-answer But, you know, I think that lost in the attempt to present Harry Stiles as this kind of progressive modernist ideal of the male pop star, part of that I think is to be coy about sexuality and not be a vanilla, hetero white guy. But at the same time, I think the thing that actually does make Harry Stiles such a 2020 pop star is like that guilt or that feeling that

being who he is isn't enough. And so you kind of have to, you know, talk yourself up and be more interesting. And look, you know, maybe he, whatever he's doing behind closed doors, again, not, you know, not my concern, go for it. But it's just, I just can't, I'm just more interested in the credulousness of the writing community around it. Yeah, I mean, to me, it's just another example of projection with him. Yeah.

where people are projecting certain qualities onto him that I don't think are necessarily in the substance of his art or his persona, all that stuff. It is a little confounding with him. And I wonder, it seems like more people are getting annoyed with that, which I think is, I welcome that because I do think that that's the proper reaction to him. At the same time, he does have the song of the summer as it was. That song is hugely popular. He's not going to be going anywhere anytime soon. So if we make fun of him on this show, which we will do again, I'm sure he can take it.

He'll be all right. What I'm hoping for is that, like, you can tell piece by piece, inch by inch with every one of these articles, he is coming so close to saying something interesting. Yeah, we'll see. That might actually like alter his career. So, you know, keep these profiles coming. I want to see Harry Siles continue to open up. Yeah, I mean, I would.

love to see an article where he just comes out and says that my sexual preference is to date really beautiful models. That is what I am into, and I'm proud to say it. I think if he said that, I would actually, I would laugh and I would enjoy that. I don't think that's going to happen, but I think that would be a true revelatory statement on his part. Let's get to our mailbag segment in here. And thank you all again for writing in, and we love hearing from our listeners. If you want to hit us up at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com, that would be great. I'm going to read this letter because it's pretty much just directed at you, Ian. And I don't know how much I'm going to have to say about this.

So you're going to have the floor, I think, with this letter. But it comes from a guy named Michael. He's in Milwaukee, a former town that I lived in. so great to hear the Milwaukee Indicast fans coming out. This is what Michael writes. He says, hey guys, this question is for Ian in particular. It's August, and I've only heard one great emo album this year, Little Greenhouse from the band Anxious.

I'm sure I'm missing stuff, but I try to keep up with the genre, and it seems like a major letdown gear for emo. Are we seeing a shift away from this current wave of emo? Or is it just that a lot of bands release albums in the last two years? years. So there are fewer releases in 2022. Could this be one of the impacts of COVID catching up on us with the toll it took on up-and-coming DIY bands? I'm curious for your thoughts about emo in 2022, and that's from Michael in Milwaukee. So he is teeing you up, Ian, to give a state of the union address here. Indeed. 99% of the time someone named Michael from Milwaukee is probably

going to be asking a Steve question, but here we are. Here you go, man. So what do you think? think? Is this a down year for emo? Do you agree with Michael's assessment of where the scene is at at this place and time? I have to be careful in so many of the things that we've discussed about 2022 to not conflate my personal malaise with greater cultural trends, but I can't help but think that Michael is on to something because, you know, if there is only one great emo album this year, and I do think it's a down year, it's probably anxious. They seem like a band that's gotten, you know, a decent amount of traction. You saw them on these half-year albums of the half-year list.

Like that tends to be the token one. And I'd also like put pool kids in there as making a great emo album. It might actually be the greatest of the bunch. But I do think that we are in a bit of a transitional phase where 2021 brought a lot of exciting fifth wave bands like bands that like kind of broke through on a very small level um you know like home is where um hey i love you uh bands of that nature and you know they're probably working on their follow up right now likewise in 2021 we had the these still active big names of fourth wave like foxing and the world's a beautiful place they released their album so it does feel like a down year in

that like nothing from either of those waves have come out with something big. And similarly, there are a lot of really good emo albums that I just haven't written about for any number of reasons. Maybe there just isn't as much interest in publishing, or they just haven't gotten like the sort of momentum that they might have gotten from touring over the previous two years, like Carly Cosgrove or Forrests. You know, the Prince Daddy album, I think, was better than any of the ones that came out before. It doesn't feel like it's gotten the same impact, same with short fictions. So I definitely think this is a long-tail result of COVID. That being said, every time I do feel this way, like, ah, nothing's popping in emo.

Like something comes out of the blue to really just shift the narrative. I'm thinking about bands like Your Arms in My Cacoon and Weather Day, like the real Fifth Wave totally online type of bands who I've been hearing great things about their live sets. When they release their follow-ups, those could be landmarks. We're still waiting on the second Glass Beach album. I know home is where and asleep but still in bed, or sorry, awake but still in bed are working on their next records. So I mean, I think that could change,

but I also have to say that like it almost feels like a down year for everything that isn't like big. You know, like I think that we're gonna look at this year and like Rosalia, Beyonce and Big Thief and Bad Bunny are gonna like sweep all the top four. And it's just going to be weird stuff going on in the 30s and 40s. Yeah, you know, this year got off to such a hot start. And now the last, basically the summer months have been kind of dry.

I mean, it feels like it's been a while since there was a really great record. I guess Beyonce, that would be a record that came out this summer that a lot of people agree on. Not so much in our world here, but like obviously a really big record. I'll just speak as someone who tends to get into these albums if they cross over from the scene, because you're deep, you're enmeshed in the scene here. I'm more of like outside of it, but I'm open to hearing bands that break out, and I'll say, the Pool Kids record is one of my favorite albums of the year. I think that's a really good record.

I like the Anxious record. It didn't make my half-year list, but I enjoy that album. But certainly pool kids, I think, is a really good band. And this is the fifth wave we're on right now? Fifth, I want to say it's like 5.5, maybe. How long has this wave been going? I don't even fucking know. I think we're still fifth wave here.

Until, like, the second home is where our album drops. I can say that we're probably still firmly within fifth wave. So, in fifth wave is, like, about 10 years? I would say fifth wave is, like, 2018. I put the implosion of tiny engines maybe as the end of fourth wave in the beginning of 15. Okay. All right. So we're not that deep in the fifth wave then, right?

I mean, we're not yet. Four years? Okay. So, you know, we're not going to, so you're not declaring it dead yet. You're saying you're taking a wait and see attitude. Low tide. Low tide. All right.

Well, you know, I felt like Nancy Pelosi sitting behind Joe Biden while you were talking there. You were given the state of the union address, and I was like, okay, do I stand? Is this an applause line? You know, here? I was really appreciating you talk about that. Let's get into our list of topics for this week. And we're going to start by talking about the new Arctic Monkeys album. It was announced this week. It's called The Car. It comes out October 21st. This is the first Arctic Monkeys record since Tranquility Base Hotel and Casina, which came out in 2018.

I'm a big fan of that record. I feel like I know how you feel about it, but we'll get to that in a second. Arctic Monkeys are a band that certainly have a big following, I think, here in America, even bigger in Europe. If you look at their streaming numbers, they are certainly one of the biggest rock bands in the world. their biggest song Do I Want to Know has about 1.4 billion streams There's another song from that record

AM Why Do You Only Call Me When You're High? Which is just below one billion I think every track on that record Has at least 100 million Except for mad sounds It is about a million and a half away From hitting the nine digits

So very big band Tranquity bass was their curveball record But I don't think that really hurt them that much. I'll be curious to hear how this new record comes out if they're going to be continuing that loungy, satirical pop sound of tranquility bass, or if they're going to get back to the more sort of muscle car, bluesy,

big-time rock sound of AM. Maybe it'll be somewhere in the middle there. You aren't into this band, right? I mean, we've talked about Arctic Monkeys, I think, on this show maybe for a little bit. But this is a band that gets under your skin in a negative way. Am I correct? I'm just not into them.

I don't think they actively annoy me the way some bands do. I can understand that if I were perhaps five years younger, they might be what the strokes were to me in my real life. But then again, it's like the strokes are my strokes, and I haven't really paid much attention to them since, like, 2006 or whatever, anyway. Like the millennial people, called the millennial people. This does seem like a touchstone band for people of that generation.

I would say, I mean, I'm a little bit older than you. I would say people like at least 10 years younger than me look at them. Like you said, as the strokes, although they might, I mean, if you're looking at their streaming numbers, they're bigger than the strokes. Yes. Although, you know, some of that, I mean, I feel like a lot of it has to do with, like, people in the UK. Although, I mean, there's not that many people in the UK for them to be streamed 1.4 billion times just because of their big audience there. But yeah, I mean, they do seem like, like, one of the only rock bands, really, of that generation that has, like, really kind of had a stronghold now for about 16 years.

I would say that AM, like, if it wasn't for AM, I don't know how big they'd be because when you look at the streaming numbers for, I mean, for example, 2011 suck it and C and humbug, you know, impressive, but it's like 30 to 60 million streams of pop. And AM is just so much bigger than everything they've made, even including their debut, which is like, you know, one of those things that NME was calling like the greatest album of the 2000s like a month before it came out. But, you know, I think with this band, it's like, I just see them as, I don't know, like, we've talked about the deaf tones test on this show before. Like, can you tell if a band has ever had an uncool day in their life? Like, would they listen to deaf tones? I think the Arctic monkeys fail that miserably. I think that they've just kind of, especially with AM, adopted this GQ kind of baby driver rock band ideal,

which doesn't resonate with me at all. And when they made their weird album, it was weird, but it was still like using very, very cool influences. So I don't know. Like, I mean, I don't mind them. I don't think they're a force for evil. And I sort of wish I liked them. But to me, they're just kind of along the same lines as like, say,

Queens of the Stone Age or Fu Fighters. See, but those bands aren't cool. And I wonder how cool Arctic monkeys are in England. just because they are so popular, and they're a mainstream rock band there. We need to get some mailbag on that. Because, you know, like, I know, like, Oasis wasn't really a cool band during their height. They were a popular band, but they were, like, a band that, like, the lads liked. So they wouldn't have, you know, they wouldn't have had the cachet of, like, a band like Pulp or something,

who I would associate with coolness more than I would Oasis. And I feel like Arctic Monkeys might have a similar. rep in their home country. I could be totally wrong, but just because they're so popular, and I'm sure that, like, the hipsters in that country are sick of them by now, you know, and roll their eyes at Arctic monkeys. In here, you know, they have a different, they might hit differently just because they're British, wearing the leather jackets. Alex Turner always has really cool looking hair. So, you know, maybe they hit those annoying cool notes for you. because you're an American?

I don't know. I want to hear from my British listeners on this. Like, what's the Arctic Monkeys rep in their home country? I really appreciate that you brought up, yeah, he's got really cool hair and that I might dislike him because I'm American, not because I don't have hair. That was awful kind of you. Well, yeah, we don't need, I'm not hitting below the bell here on Arctic Monk. I mean, because they're a band that I like, I don't love Arctic Monkeys, but I like their work.

like their catalog. I really like the album AM, and maybe it's because that is one of the only kind of true down-the-line rock albums that actually has a real impact on music in the last decade. That is absolutely true, yeah. It's like one of the big mainstream rock records of modern time, so I think the nostalgicist in me who likes big-time rock records is drawn to it partly for that, but I also think the tunes are good. You mentioned Queens of Estonia, that's the record that Josh Ome produced. I believe he produced the whole record. Yeah, it definitely has like a Queens

of the Stone Age like veneer to it, although that record's like way bigger than any Queens of the Stone Age record, you know, weirdly enough. So, I don't know. It's like maybe Alex Turner needs to produce Queens of the Stone Age.

I think he probably did. I feel like he did. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know. There's definitely cross-pollination. between those bands, for sure, in the last decade. Although I think Queensland's Stone Age has had bigger problems at this point, judging by the tabloid stories about Josh Ome, I don't know what the status of that band is going to be going forward.

At any rate, one thing I do know is that Capitol Records is getting out of the robot rapper business, at least temporarily. Did you see this story? This Near Time story about the AI rapper, what's his name FN FN Mika I've not heard the name said aloud What a great transition

From like Josh OMA's problematic Nature to like a completely Virtual problematic rapper Yeah problematic There's this problematic robot rapper And if he gets cancelled This could be like a real cancelization Because he literally will not exist

If he gets cancelled So yeah this is This could be like the first true cancelization in history I just want to read from the lead of this story for those people who have no idea what we've been talking about for the last 60 seconds. This is from the New York Times. Capital Music Group, the company that houses major labels including Capital and Blue Note, said on Tuesday that it was severing ties with its latest controversial artist, FN Mika, a virtual, quote, robot rapper powered partly by artificial intelligence, who boasts more than 10 million followers on TikTok. The company had previously teased the project, the first augmented reality artist to sign to a major label. Augmented reality?

I've never heard that term before. Just say a robot rapper. I think that is the best way to refer to this. I was going to say this guy, but he's not a guy. He's just a digital creation. But anyway, the company, they tease this as, quote, just a preview of what's to come. Yet after growing backlash to what skeptical observers said amounted to digital blackface, including content that seemed to trivialize incarceration and police brutality,

Capital said it had, quote, severed ties with the FN Mika Project effective immediately. When I read this story, I definitely had a Danny Glover and Lethal Weapon moment of, like, I'm getting too old for this shit. Like, I might have to retire from the music writing, help minds because this is like beyond satire. It like makes pop star never stop, never stopping look like the last waltz. You know, like you, I look at pop star now as like, wow, that's when things were like really earthy and, and authentic, you know, because now we're in this era. What do you make of this story? Like, do you understand even like what's going on here? So before we go

any further, we like, Popstar never stop, never stopping. If you've never watched, if you've never watch that movie. That is like permanent recommendation corner. Absolutely. I demand that all our listeners get familiar with that so we can reference it as much as possible. Yeah, that is like inexplicable that that is not

a more commonly referenced text in modern music writing. Because I feel like it's, there's so many things in that movie that are applicable to like the world that we live in now. So when I first read that story, like I had heard whispers about it. It's like this

kind of off-brand milkshake duck story where this thing came out, everyone fucking hated it for two weeks, and then it got canceled. Yeah, and it just read like this seven-layer burrito of incomprehensible 2002 music industry jargon. Like, what is an augmented reality rapper? How and why does it get signed by Capitol Records and why did it get dropped? And yeah, I also think, you know what? I think I'm just going to be a podcast. listener from now on music, I've had a good run with it, but this is clearly like my exit stage left

moment. And then I just, I made an honest attempt to look more into it. And I just love this story. It is so fucking fascinating because you said it's a mostly AI rapper, but there's human beings and somewhat behind it. One of them happens to be this guy named Anthony Martini, who's a, he's a, he's a, he's a white guy who fronts this New Jersey rap corps band. called E-Town Concrete. And he compared it to, say, marshmallow and gorillas, which, you know what? Like, that's a fair assessment. And this is the best quote from Anthony Martini.

It's literally no different from managing a human artist except that it's digital. So, I mean... It's just like a human, except it's not. Yeah, except it's absolutely nothing at all like a human. And you know what? like a part of me like really wants to get like cynical about this in the same in the same way that there was this like charlie x-dex robox concert creation of secondary content piece that pitchfork ran that was getting re-roasted over the weekend but you know what like with with with stuff like

this technology it moves ever forward it never goes backwards the parachutes out and i just love i don't know just as a person from the sidelines you just like to watch uh the music industry may complete asses on themselves. I just love when the cynicism is laid this bear. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, we're just going to like skip past the part of artist development and just go going to AI rap. Why the fuck not?

You know, I just love how, I also love like kind of the pop-timist backlash to stuff like this where, you know, you think about the, quote, secondary content creation of, you know, like fanfic made by In Sync or One Direction fans, but oh, when it's this stuff, this isn't real pop fandom, you know what I mean? It's very easy to just get, like, cynical and say this is all, you know, Fiona Apple style, the world's all bullshit. And I like how you pointed out that this is like not the end of robot rappers, but probably just a temporary hiccup. And they'll fine tune it. though, I wonder if there's going to be like an AI backpack or conscious rapper. You know, like an AI rapper doing like third eye style rhymes and like getting,

who's like really into sound bombing too. Like instead of like, I guess, like a Playboy Cardi type AI robot, like whether it's going to be like a Jay Cole. Yeah, I mean, yeah, this is not the end of robot rappers. The only reason why this robot rapper was canceled was because it's a racist character. caricature, not because it's a stupid idea that seems to go against what music should be about. I mean, it's just the natural conclusion, I think, of the music industry just mindlessly chasing any TikTok trend, you know, because they think it's going to make them money, which I, you know, I wonder if something like this, like, if you follow this robot rapper, on TikTok, do you really want an album from the robot rapper or do you just like the TikTok?

Like, I feel like the idea is to market to people who don't actually care about music because that's the majority of people. More people care about video games, more people care about social media than we'll ever care about music. And yeah, I mean, I guess I get it. You want to expand your customer base and music fans are just not enough of them. So you have to reach out to these other people who couldn't care less about music, but they're into whatever the latest technology is,

and they're going to gravitate to this kind of thing. You know, it's like when you watch the Super Bowl, and it's not for sports fans, it's all, it's for everyone else who doesn't like sports, and they're trying to sandwich all this other stuff in. And that to me, this seems like a bellwether of that, that, you know, the music business is probably going to, progress in a direction where like music becomes a small part of what they do and most of it

will just be catering to this video game, social media technological base of people out there that you want to appeal to because there's more of them out there. Yeah, I think we just have to like rebrand Indycast as like a podcast that hashes out trends of like the biggest loss leader of the entertainment industry. Well, you know, I just wonder what happens to us when there's robot indie rock podcasters out there who are really big

on TikTok. I mean, that seems like it's going to happen sooner rather than later. And then you and I are going to be living under a bridge somewhere. Yeah, I'm just thinking of like the obviously like the Simpsons, you know, the DJ 3,000. It's like, look at those clowns

in Congress. And except for it's like it's us except it's like, look at this Harry Stiles interview. Look, I would love to hear an AI version of Indycast. If you happen to be very, like, I don't know, maybe Anthony Martini, maybe that's his latest pivot. You know, things didn't quite work out with FN Mecca, but, you know, getting to the podcasting game, God knows how much money's in that.

You know, I'm just offering that pivot to you, Anthony Martini. Also, I just love the fact that that band is touring and playing Furnace Fest. So you could see Pedro the Lion do their, do like a, a funerty. full-on performance of control and then see like the rap core band that invented the AI rapper. What a festival. Yeah, that goes on our list of favorite festivals

right away. All right, well, moving on from the robot rapper story, I want to talk about something that is a little old at this point. This broke the day that we recorded our previous episode last week. But I wanted to talk about it because it's something that pertains to this thing of ours, so to speak.

that we have been involved in for a long time. And it's about Rolling Stone announcing last week that on their website they will not be having starred reviews any longer. And I don't know the precise history of this, but I know at the beginning of Rolling Stone, they didn't have star reviews. And I don't know if it was in the 70s or the 80s that stars started coming in,

but it's been part of the magazine for a long time. But the magazine announced as part of it, a redesign of its website that they're not going to be doing starred reviews anymore. And I want to read from what they offer a brief explanation about it. They say no more starred reviews for new music. If you're into pop culture in 2022, you're too sophisticated to let some arbitrary number guide your taste. Shots fired.

Yeah, I wonder, is that a little sub-tweet of pitchfork and some other places? Seems a little sub-tweety. That's not even sub-tweet. That's like passive-aggressive. That's like aggressive, aggressive. That's tapping the finger in the chest of the competitors right there. So we'll tell you right away when a new single is an instant classic or an album is an absolute must hear. After that, our critics will help you make up your own damn mind.

So most of the response I saw to this online was positive. People were like, oh, right, that's great. No more stars on Rolling Stone reviews. And I wanted to ask you about this because, you know, most of my writing has been for places that don't have stars on reviews. And I have to say that as a writer, I prefer not to have a score on my review because, and I feel like this should be common knowledge,

but for whatever reason it's not, like the writer does not assign the score to a review. Like if you're reading Rolling Stone or pitchfork, the byline, that person didn't decide if it got four stars or an 8.5. That was the editor that decided that. And the reason why they assigned that particular writer to the piece is because the writer happens to agree with the official

stance of the publication. They have the same opinion. So, like, they're casting writers based on how they feel about a record and how it coincides with how the Masthead feels. So if you're a writer and you're doing that,

you may still feel like, well, this album that got four stars, I would have given it three and a half stars. And now all these people are going to be demanding that you defend this score that you didn't even assign. Like my one, like the big example for me of when this happened is I wrote a Sunday review for Pitchfork about Alien Lanes, the guided by voices album.

And when I tweeted it out, I said, this is one of my favorite albums of all time. And the album got like a 9.5. And someone clapped back and they were like, how pretentious do you have to be to give your favorite album a 9.5? And I was like, I would have given it like a 26.5. But I'm not assigning the score, okay? It's pitchfork assigning it. And that's because they're preserving their voice.

That's what the editors are there to do to make sure that they don't just let writers go off half cocked, you know, because they don't represent the publication. It's the editors are the stewards of that. So it makes sense. So for writers, I think it's frustrating. For readers, however, and I want to get your opinion on this, I feel like readers for the most part like scores. they like it as a quick reference point. They basically like it for the reasons that writers hate it because a score means you don't actually have to read the review.

You can just look at the score and you can get a very quick sense of how this place feels about it. I mean, I think sometimes scores can suck you into the review. Like if an album that you don't maybe particularly care about gets like a 1.3, you're like, oh, I want to read this. This is going to be a pan. Or if it gets like a 9.8, you're like, wow. They must really love this.

I want to read this review. But for the most part, I think it discourages people from reading, which again is why writers don't like it. But for readers, even when they complain about the scores, they gravitate to them. So I wonder, like, if the average Rolling Stone reader will appreciate this? I don't know. What do you think about that? Well, I mean, first off, we just got to point out that the Alien Lane's review is a 9.2. Oh, okay.

Well, I still would have given it a 26.0, but pitchfork doesn't give out 26.0s. Not yet. Not yet. Yeah, when I first heard about, like, I thought about this yesterday when, like, Joe Biden made the announcement of, like, having some student loans canceled and, like, all these people who dutifully paid off their loans complained about, like, how come I had to suffer. I'm just like thinking that like, you know, maybe other members of like Blind Melon are thinking like, where was this no stars when soup came out? You know, like all these bands that got like infamously like 1.5 or one star, you know, like all of a sudden, like these whippersnappers these days. And like look, I get it. Again, like we talked in previous episodes, I think about like how reviews. in Rolling Stone have been like subjected really really really to the back like the last arcade

fire album got like a capsule review and I mean I get it like as a writer I would like for people to engage with the text that I so that I worked on for so many hours as opposed like a score that just almost arbitrarily got slapped on there but at the same time I'd like them to read it to begin with and I think the score you know ensures like some level of engagement that just a block of text would not unless you just so happen to be a big fan of like my work or you care a lot about the band that I'm writing about um if there's anything that I guess across the board kind of annoys me with music writing it's when like look we're both lifers we've made we've you know you know like we've supported our families off this shit and yet if the only the only thing you're the only

The thing that annoys me across the board is when music writers think of our work as like some sort of higher serious calling. You know, like I think that this removal of the stars, Gambit makes me think that like, no, music reviews of this like sacred text that like they should not be limited by whether it's like the old spin stoplight system or stars or grades or like the vice, you know, making smiley or frowny face type. of thing. And I mean, I think that maybe this is just like kind of putting like a moral spin on what is inevitable anyway, which is that reviews are getting like phased out. So, I don't know. It allows people to have it to both ways. Again, I'm sure writers think this is an incredibly bold move. I would just love to know what readers think because by and large, I think they see our reviews as like a version of consumer reports. Yeah, or I mean, I just think it's

fun. You know, it's fun to argue about scores. I mean, people are just drawn to it. It's the same reason why lists do really well. There's just something about it that it engages people. And I think if you're, if you're also delivering great writing, I don't see a problem with that. I mean, what this reminds me of is how during year-end list season, you're seeing more and more places do unranked lists. What I think is totally fine. I don't think you need. I don't think you to rank a list. If you just want to have a list that's an alphabetical order or however else you want to organize it, I think that's great. But I do feel like sometimes there's this idea that it's like more moral or something to like not rank your year end list. And it's like you made a

list. You've already ranked albums. Even if the albums on your list are an alphabetical order, you've still pulled out these 10, 20, 50 albums out of all the albums that were released in a year and said these are the best. So you are ranking those albums ahead of every other album that came out in a particular year. So to say then like, well, it's wrong to put a number next to an album on this list. I don't know. Look, I'm not going to go to the mats to like defend ranking things, but I don't think

it's wrong to rank or to unrank. I just think it's a fun way to package music. writing and you're just trying to get people in the door. Like you said, if you just present a block of text, even if the writing is great, it's hard to engage people with that online. But if you can give them a little stupid score on something that gets them in the door and then they read it. And I think you need to do things like that sometimes to engage readers. It's just something, it's like a Pavlovian thing that people respond to. I think the most important thing about writing a review is that when you do it, the check that they send you clears.

Yes, I'm going to rank my top 50 checks I've gotten in my music writing career. Top 50 publications of like which places pay you the fastest and the most reliably. The top 10 places that do direct deposit. You know, we'll do that list next week on Indycast. Our last topic today, and I'm going to tread lightly here because this relates to vinyl snobbery. And this is something that I have railed against in previous episodes, and I feel like I've alienated some listeners by doing this, because I know we have a lot of people out there that

like to listen to vinyl. And again, hats off to you. Do what you love to do. I'm glad that you enjoy your vinyl collections. Although if you get overly precious about vinyl, I might have something to say about that. But I don't know if you've been following this, but there's that, uh, we're a, uh, we're Reissue label, Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab, also known as MoFi.

Isn't that an Arctic Monkeys album? Could be. I first heard about this story a couple weeks ago, The Washington Post did a piece about how it was discovered that this reissue label, they put out expensive reissues of classic albums on vinyl, and they advertise it as being all analog. But in reality, they've been using what's known as, DSD technology, also known as direct stream digital technology, basically the same kind of

technology that they used to make CDs. They're using this for these very expensive vinyl reissues that they're advertising is all analog. And this week, there was a class action lawsuit brought against the label from a customer named Adam Stiles. He lives in Charlotte, North Carolina. I wonder if he's an indie cast list. Yeah, Adam from Charlotte, North Carolina, that totally is an Indycast mailbag name. And I'm reading here, this is from the Pitchfork story,

The lawsuit's specific anecdote is a February 22 purchase of the Pretender's self-titled debut album, which cost him $40 and was advertised as an original master recording designation. And this is from the lawsuit. Had Mr. Stiles been aware that the record used digital remastering or DST technology, he would not have purchased the record or would have paid significantly less for it. So this guy paid $40 for what he thought was an all-analog record. And he could have basically bought a U-CD copy of this album for like $2.99 from eBay and gotten the same product essentially, just at a smaller package. Again, I'm going to tread lightly here.

I don't want to be disrespectful to the vinyl fans out there. I know you've invested a lot of time and money in your collections. and I would be upset too if I bought an expensive record that I thought was all analog and then I found out that it had, you know, it was using this digital remastering technology. But there is something kind of funny to me about annoying, like the Steve Hoffman music board type person who obsesses over this kind of thing. I mean, it does show how a lot of this stuff seems like a total farce.

If you are, to the Indycast listener, I want to make sure you take some time as we have this discussion. Google Steve Hoffman and, okay, no, before you Google Steve Hoffman, just imagine like what you think a real vinyl audio engineering snob looks like. Just imagine that in your head. And Google Steve Hoffman and look at the first Google image that pops up. It is such a, it's at vintage rock.com.

I want to make sure you look at that one. I would say like press pause. do that and resume with us as we continue this discussion. He might be an AI of a vinyl stop, because it's a little too perfect. He's the FM mecca of audio engineers. Yeah, you know, in a weird way, like this controversy seemed more impenetrable to me than the FM mecca thing because, you know, I kind of understand digital avatars. I do understand, like hip-hop.

I do understand why it's problematic. But, you know, this technology, it always moves forward. And, you know, as we said before, and the idea that, like, vinyl is somehow more authentic, you know, regardless of, like, what era music was recorded in always seemed, like, kind of bullshit to me. Like, I just think of, like, these people who were trying to buy, like, 50 cent get rich or die trying on vinyl, like, even though it was made at the height of the CD era. And what I, this also makes me think of like, you know, whenever you hear about like this cryptocurrency, just completely tanking, how you do feel bad in some way for like these people who lost a lot of money. And at the same time, it's like, yeah, they probably shouldn't have been there in the first place. You know, like you're investing in something that like I personally think is bullshit. So I'm not going to feel as much sympathy for you.

But I think if there's any upshot of this and I think you touched on this, doesn't this be? potentially bring us to a point where CDs are seen as the superior audio replication than vinyl? Yeah, I mean, look, I'm a CD guy, so I'm going to go to math for CDs. I mean, I understand collecting vinyl records, going to old record shops, and maybe you find an original pressing of the first Pretender's record, and it costs $10 and you buy that. I think that's cool. What annoys me more and more is this business now where records just cost way too much money. And it does seem like a scam at some point that instead of going to the store and buying like the original vinyl record from like 40 years ago, you're going to buy this expensive reissue.

And it somehow justifies its value because of how it was remastered. I don't know. To me, it does speak. to, you know, if you want to say like I like vinyl records as an aesthetic object, they look cool, I like how they look on my shelf, I like holding it in my hand, I like putting a

record on the turntable and sitting in a chair, and 20 minutes later you get up, you turn it over, because it's a nice experience for listening. I get all that stuff. I just feel like this kind of thing, it shows that there is exploitation, I think, in this world.

And it feels like maybe this could be a turning point in rolling some of that back, you know, to a place where vinyl collecting, I think, it's a little less decadent. Because I feel like we're in the decadent hair metal, late 80s phase of vinyl, like where there's just like too much money and like too much self-indulgence going on. And there needs to, you know, there needs to be like the never mind needs to come out and clear the decks, you know, a little bit. And maybe this is, maybe this lawsuit is like Nirvana putting out never mind. Yeah, hopefully. I mean, yeah, I think you make a salient

point about like if you like vinyl, you know, just say it's because it looks bigger. You can put it on your shelves. Like I think about, I just think about this advertisement that seems to pop up 80% of the time when I watch something on YouTube where it's this, for this whiskey, and it's like, you know that sound of an old vinyl? That's what this is like. And they're playing like some like old. blue song or probably some black key song and that that it that just annoys me so much that like this idea that like the older version of something is somehow like more authentic like is if you if you didn't go you know present led zeppelin in 1970 with like digital recording technology how they would not be all over that shit you know um look at i don't know what's going to come to this maybe i'll get

like a class action suit check in the mail like I did when like Kaplan got sued by you know like a class action but either way if like CDs come back like I can't guarantee I'll spend 18 on it but I'll at least appreciate it a bit more you know like I'll go to the record store and maybe see a poll quote from one of my reviews on the sticker that would be cool I miss those days see and CDs aren't going to cost 18 dollars and they well if they become collectible I guess they could be. But really, CDs are in that era of buying the Kaiser Chiefs album at Best Buy for 799. Like, that's what a lot of CDs cost now. It's like, it's a great era for CD fans. In a way, I don't want CDs to become too popular because then they're going to be doing, you know,

super digital reissues of albums that cost $50, like for one CD. And I don't want that to happen. I want them to be... The fucking tour variant with like the, you know, the swirl, the different designs. I don't need that shit. Yeah, keep CDs disreputable and cheap. That is my hope. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? So this past weekend on Friday and Saturday, I believe, me without you, a long-running, legendary band from Philadelphia played their final shows. They've been around for 20 years. Their first album came out in 2002. I think it's fair to say they're done. They've been doing like farewell tour.

celebrations of their album for the past couple of years interrupted by the pandemic and such. And it was really cool to see the celebration of this band over the weekend. I think something along the lines of like 50 to 75% of the bands that I talk about and Recommendation Corner have been influenced in some way by this act. Haley Williams from Powermore called them like the most important band of her lifetime. A lot of spute. The world is a beautiful place. just countless bands spawned from this.

And, you know, even, I feel bad that I kind of missed their peak. Both Steve and I mentioned this in our respective Manchester Orchestra profiles about like how Manchester Orchestra opened for Me Without You in 2007. And they played the same venue as Fiery Furnaces who were like this, you know, indie darling. And they outdrew them by like 10 times, even though no one was talking about them. I was like purely pitchfork-pilled at that time. I'm not listening to a band on tooth and nail. And I'm a little sad that I was not in a space where I could appreciate their, you know,

when they were really starting to come up in the 2000s. That being said, their most recent records, including 2015's Pale Horses, 2018's Untitled and the EP that went along with it. Both were released on Run for Cover, produced by Will, yep. even if you're not the type of person who like tattoos the lyrics of this band on your arm, I think you could still appreciate their later work. It holds this space between R.E.M. and Fugazi, like, in a way that you've talked about the Constantine's in the past.

And also, like, the Decembrus with, like, the really elusive referential lyrics. This is a band that I think, you know, I can feel comfortable recommending to Steve because we've talked in past episodes about how we like to encounter bands with like deep catalogs after their peak and just really explore it. I mean, I don't know what the fuck Aaron Weiss is talking about half the time, but the lyrics are just super interesting and it just makes me wonder if there's going to be a similar sort of band that comes along that grows that organically and is that powerful. Just a real end of an era.

So yeah, I'm definitely, I'm going to dig into that band. This is a band that I've been aware of for a long time, and I've dabbled in their catalog a little bit, but I'm sad to see them go. I'm sure their fans are sad to see them go, but there is something fun about digging into a catalog that has a cap on it. It's like, okay, this is like a body of work now,

and now I'm going to dive into it and see what's good and what doesn't work. Definitely plan on doing that with that band. My recommendation this week, I'm going to do a self-interested recommendation. I want to talk about a profile that I published on Uprocks. week of the very hyped and beloved indie musician Bartiz Strange. Earlier this month, I went to Salt Lake City, Utah to see him play a show with the national during a five-show run that he was doing,

opening up for the national in Canada and the Western United States. And I read about this in my profile in the intro that the premise of this was that Barty Strange has been one of the most written about artists of 2022. I think, you know, You did a piece on him. I did New York Times. You know, Rolling Stone, NPR, all down the line. I've talked about him. But how do you do in the middle of Utah when you're an indie artist?

And you're trying to get fans into you. It seemed like, okay, if I want to gauge where he's at right now, this is a good place to go. Because this is in the middle of the weird Wild West. And if you've never been to Utah, this is my first time going. Very unique place. I ended up writing quite a bit of. about Salt Lake City in my article. I don't want to give too much away,

but along with all the Mormon stuff, this is a place where they put pastrami on your cheeseburgers. It's where the high school musical films were filmed. It has a surprisingly vibrant Mexican restaurant scene, which you would not expect. And I don't know, it's a very unique place, and it was fun to talk to Bartiz in that setting and just to see how that show went.

There's also a bit about the National in my piece. I talked to Bryce Desner about the new album that they're working on. He was actually at an Airbnb with the other members of the national before the show working on the record. That's why he wasn't backstage. I was supposed to talk to him backstage. They put out a single this week with Justin Vernon of Bonnie Bear called Weird Goodbyes, which has been one of the song that they've been playing on stage during this tour. There's about four or five others that they've been playing.

It's interesting because live, the songs are very guitar heavy, and yet the single that they put out this week seems more in line with their last couple records. So I'll be interested to see how this album evolves. Of course, I'm excited for them to make a more guitar-oriented record again, and those songs sounded great live. And Bryce said that they were recording their shows and incorporating some of those live recordings into the record.

So I don't know. I'm curious to see what that's like. Weird goodbyes, the single that they put out doesn't really reflect that. But maybe the rest of the record does. At any rate, I wrote this long profile. It's about 4,400 words,

but I think it's pretty interesting. I think you should check it out. It's at uprocks.com. So yeah, please read that if you can. We've now reached the end of our episode. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter.

You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.