Indiecast - Assessing Potential AOTY Candidates + The New Album By Father John Misty

Episode Date: November 22, 2024

Steven and Ian begin this week's episode with some shocking news: It looks like Steven is going to win the Fantasy Albums Draft this quarter (1:57)! Big help comes courtesy of new albums out today from Michael Kiwanuka and Kim Deal of the Breeders, which have been very well reviewed. Then the guys talk about candidates for "Album Of The Year" according to critical consensus, including Charli XCX's Brat, Beyoncé's Cowboy Carter, MJ Lenderman's Manning Fireworks, and Cindy Lee's Diamond Jubilee (13:00). Then they dive into the new album from Father John Misty, Mahashmashana, and how it compares to his previous records (32:25).In the mailbag, the guys address one of their all-time best questions: Who is the most "dudes rock" quarterback of all time (45:24)?In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks about the Philly indie band 22° Halo while Steven stumps for the cult singer-songwriter Lee Baggett (56:11).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 216 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycasts. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about potential album of the year candidates now that year-end list is upon us and the new Father John Misty record. My name is Stephen Hayden and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's worried that I might finally beat him in the fantasy album draft. Ian Cohen.

Ian, Ian, how are you? Yeah, I would just say to all our Indycast listeners out there, be on the lookout for a couple of new music websites that just review Kim Deal and Michael Kiwanuka albums and just fold by 2025. I'm going to get on my race to Zuzu. I'm going to get on my race Suzuki shit right now. You are accusing me of chicanery here? No, no, no. What I might have to do is just start a bunch of shell fake music websites that more or less exist to tell you that Kim deals,

nobody loves you more is actually a trash one out of ten record. And, you know, maybe grease some palms over at Metacritic or Alme of the Year or whatever it takes, man. Because right now, I feel like the pupil has become the master. You have played your hand for Q4, 2024 masterfully. Well, we'll see what happens. As you alluded to, I've got a bunch of albums that are out this week. Got Michael Kiwanaka, small changes. and that's currently at a 90.

And when I drafted that album, I was really banking on the Brits to come through for me. Because he's critically acclaimed here in America, but on the other side of the pond, he is like a phenom. He is, like, what would be the equivalent? I thought this was kind of like a Britney Howard sort of pick just because of the kind of music that he makes.

And also it's produced by Danger Mouse. so Danger Mouse is kind of adjacent to that. You know, it's like for people who like might have like the Black Keys or Alabama Shakes in the mid-2010s, but, you know, wants something a little more. What's the word I'm looking for? Let's like with a little more sustenance to it. I like Michael Kiwanaka. He put out a record a few years ago called Love and Hate that I think is actually quite a good record.

But I know what you mean. It's very tasteful. Yes. Retro-sounding music, a little bit of. rock, a little bit of R&B, usually very tasteful string sections going on his records. But again, I was like, I was banking on the British publications to come through, and they have big time. Mojo, I love you. A new Mojo, this is like Mojo Catnip, this record.

So it currently has a 90. And then Kim Deal, who I picked, as you said, nobody loves you more, name of the record. It's her first solo record. And again, I thought, okay, she is a indie rock royalty. People love her. I feel like she was like in the same lane that Beth Gibbons was in. You took that pick. Was that last year or is that early last year?

No, that was that was absolutely right to ask whether it was this year or last year. I think it was like last quarter. It was not that long ago, but it feels like a lifetime. Wow. Okay. So you took Beth Gibbons last quarter, Beth Gibbons from Portis. head. And that was my Kim Deal pick this year. I feel like there's so much goodwill for the legacy female indie rock, alternative rock artist who steps out on their own. The person who's

going to review that record, they're not going to choose to review that record because they want to slag Kim Deal. If this record is good, they're going to call it great. And right now, Kim Deal, 93 right now I'm Metacritic doing doing brat numbers yeah cure numbers yeah the the cure album so basically those two are even but yeah it's also like kind of Kim Gordon as well right yeah because the breeders open for Olivia Rodrigo right yeah yeah so a lot of goodwill out there people just wanting to give Kim deal her flowers

so it's it's set up and that record I haven't heard it yet but I've heard it I've heard it is quite good. But if it's quite good, then it's going to be excellent in the perspective of critics. So the one sour note for me this week is Father John Misty, who we're going to talk about here a little bit later on in the show. His record out today as this episode post, Mahash Mashana, currently has a 77 metacritic score. Yeah, tortured poets department numbers. Well, but I'm thinking that's going to go up. I agree.

There's only six reviews posted. I could see that getting to 80. I think it's going to be an 80, ultimately. Yeah, I'm looking at these reviews. It looks like Rolling Stone gave it three and a half stars. Like really Rolling Stone? Wait a minute. How did they give it three and a half stars?

They don't give stars. I think they went back. Oh, they did? I think they did. Well, I'm met a critic. has a 70. So I'm guessing they gave it three and a half stars. Either it's literally three and a half stars or it's spiritually three and a half stars. Whatever the case may be, like Rolling Stone, I feel like they hand out four star reviews

like candy over there. Like if Panic at the disco puts out a shitty record, Rolling Stone won't give it four stars. So we can't give Father John Misty the four star review. No, they're back to doing stars. They are, yeah. See, they had that editor that they got rid of. That guy didn't want to do stars. He was the same guy who said he wants to dig up dirt on classic rockers. He was like, we're taking the classic rockers down. And then they ran like a hit piece on Eric Clapton, like the easiest guy to take a shot at.

But they brought back the stars, which that was a good move. Why are you getting rid of the stars, Rolling Stone? You should have the stars. Yeah, for perspective, Gwen Stefani and Sean Men, Dendes got three stars. So is Mahas Mosh Meshana a half star better than Gwen Stefani giving herself flowers on bouquet? Only one way to find out people. By the way, I want to apologize for saying shitty panic at the disco record, by the way.

Because saying shitty panic at the disco record is redundant. Yeah. Even I can't let, even I can't pretend to like that band. It's like saying wet water or hot sun, you know, so I apologize for being redundant. I should have just said panic at the disco record and let the shittiness be implied. Well, they have different kinds of shitty over the span of their career. You know, there's a panic. There's a fever you can't sweat out, which is like, you know, kind of classic 2006,

fueled by Rahman emo and then, you know, the high hopes sort of shittiness. So it's a bouquet of shit, you know. I feel like the shittiness just got more extreme as they went on, where they were mid-shitty at the, beginning and then by the high hopes, it's like actively irritating shitty. Maybe because that song was so popular, you just hear it everywhere. Whereas at the beginning of their career, it seemed like they were more segregated to, you know, if you walked into a hot topic or something, and you're going to hear panic at the disco.

But now you go to Target and you hear Panic at the disco. So their reach has extended as their shittiness has gotten deeper. Yeah, Pete Buttigieg. Pete Buttigieg, like the, the, the, uh, Catoa was, his brat of 2020 was, uh, Pete Buttigieg's panic at the disco. Yeah, they, they did a little dance. Yes, the high hope dance. Yeah.

Why, why are Democrats so lame? Why are Democrats so lame? It's, it's so. Anyway, we don't have to go down that road. Um, so right now I'm leading you in the draft. by a sliver. 432 to 426. Have all your albums come out?

Yeah, they're all out and I'm locked in. There's been a couple of movement. Like, you know, Yasmin Williams was up a point. Chat piles down two points. So right now, this feels like, and again, we're going to have the long-tail politics cast. It reminds me of watching CNN, like when they'll call Arkansas with 20% of the vote. tallyed. It's like, yeah, it could change once like Little Rock mail-ins come in, but I think it's

pretty well sewed up because, yeah, Kim Deal probably won't hold at 93 and maybe Michael Kewanuka will like get like a review that like knocks it down to an 88, but like a six-point deficit, it sounds like not a lot, but you think of it like when, you know, Trump's up like 1.5 percent. It's like that's insurmountable. So I think Father John Messi will go hope as well. I think this is going to hold, I'm not making my concession speech yet. I'm kind of doing like Kamala where I'm waiting for the morning after. I'm not, you know, but yeah, I'm feeling like we got ourselves a competitive fantasy draft now. Because I also think just by throughout 2024, the review landscape has changed to the point where like a lot of the same strategies that I

might have done earlier on might not work anymore. Right. The demographics have shifted. You There's different coalitions out there in a critical community. I really think in 2025, we're going to have to make picks based on the Brits and the European publications because the skinnies of the world, those publications, they're the ones who are metacritic all the time. And it really feels like we're going to have to bone up on British post-punk and like fokey British singer-songwriters. and, you know, Neo Soul people from London, like those type of acts, they feel like they're the ones in 2025 and beyond that are really going to do numbers in the fantasy albums draft. Yeah, this is, I just love the fact that, like, we're going to have to dig deeper into albums we might not ever listen to, nor will, like, our listeners ever do. But I think this, the strategy is what makes this fascinating. So I'm looking forward to a much more competitive and very different, uh, 2020. Yeah, it'll be fun.

But I'm glad it looks like I'm going to win. Don't want to jinx it. I've had terrible luck. So I'm not taking anything for granted, but I'll just say hiring Dan Campbell was a good plan. I'm not talking about the guy from the Wonder Years. Which, by the way, would be an excellent fantasy pick when they put their next album out. The Wonder Years? Oh, they do numbers.

They're like, they're the kind of like band, the game. gets reviewed by maybe like five total publications, but they, like Dan Campbell is like the panda bear to, uh, you know, Sputnik.com or whatever. Yeah.

That's like the waxahatchy. Yes. Of, of that corner of the world. Uh, now I was referring to Dan Campbell of the Detroit Lions because I think of myself as the lions of the fantasy albums draft, you've historically terrible.

But now I'm coming on and hopefully, uh, building a good positive team culture here moving forward. No, yeah, even if you do get the equivalent of like a Jared Gough five interception game, which would be, I guess,

like a pitchfork 6.0 for Mahash Mosh Hashanah. Like, I think you'll still overcome it to beat the Texans, which are me. Yeah. This metaphor. I'd be, you know,

I'd be shocked when the pitchfork review comes out if it's below like a 7.5. I think it's going to be a 7.5 to 7.8 record. They're not going to give it an eight or above, I don't think. Although I've been surprised lately. Pitchfork. Volatile. This, like, recent era, I feel like they're kinder to the indie legacy acts lately. Maybe it's just because these people are put out good records.

I don't know if it's a philosophical change, but I feel like they've been a little kinder to the indie person who's like on their sixth or seventh record than they have been in the past. So we'll see what happens. I definitely think it deserves an eight or above, but we'll talk about that here in a minute. Before we get to that, I wanted to talk to you, I wrote a column this week about album of the year candidates. Because, you know, we're a week out, I guess a less than a week out from Thanksgiving by the time this post. From, yeah, from Thanksgiving. And this is around the time where you're starting to see a lot of lists. I'm sure Thanksgiving week we're going to see some lists.

And then after Thanksgiving, it's going to just. be a deluge of lists, of rankings, of retrospective articles. So I was, I did a breakdown of what I think are like eight strong album of the year candidates, of which maybe only probably three or four are like real like potential number ones. And maybe you could say that there's just one album that kind of has a lock on number one. But I want to talk about it with you looking at. ahead at the pack. I feel like it's fair to say that Charlie X-E-X, Brat, it's hers to lose.

And again, when we're talking about, like, album of the year, we're talking about critical consensus. So, you know, you can measure that in any number of ways. Actually, Uprocks has a critics poll that's going to be coming out in January. My friend Rob Mitchum does this spreadsheet every year where he compiles all of these year-end lists to determine what the consensus choice is. I think a lot of people just do it on gut. Like you read four or five lists

and you see the same albums and that becomes what the consensus is for album of the year. It feels like Brat, it's Charlie X's, Charlie XX's to lose, it feels like. Do you think anyone's going to challenge her for the consensus number one this year?

Well, we talked about like the deluge of year-end list that will happen. But your boys at Mojo, put out their year end list. Also, Uncut. These are like the two, I think, British print mags. And you could, it doesn't even matter whether or not they put out albums this year. I bet you could guess who's Mojo and Uncut's number ones.

Well, you told me Mojo. So, Uncut, is it different than Mojo? Yes, but you could, it's kind of in the same galaxy. Is it Sergill Simpson? No. Think more UK. Oh, Fontaine's DC. Nick Cave.

Okay. Yeah. So Jack White, Nick Cave, print magazine. So let's just be clear, we're not talking about those, you know, like a rock-oriented print mags. Like Charlie X, X, X, I don't even know if they made those year-end list. But yeah, otherwise, it is brass. That's like the 50-year-old music fan. Yes.

Guy. Yes. They'll go into Barnes & Noble, like, uh, look, I. Fuck, man. Whenever I go to Barnes & Noble and it's like pretty often, like I will absolutely go to the magazine rack. So, yeah, don't like, good for them, man, for selling magazines and then 2024. But yeah, the 50-year-old guy wearing the sports jacket with like the patches on the elbows, stopping for like a latte. Oh, no. We're talking about the guy with the 55-year-old with like the Ramones or the Clash T-shirt.

But he's got the jacket over it. Okay, cool. So it's like the business casual type thing. You got the Ramones T, you have the sports jacket with the patches, you have some tasteful blocky glasses. Where you've got, maybe wearing like a hat. You know, like I've often joked about like as an aging music critic, at some point I'm going to have to adopt a hat and glasses combination. I feel like that's required. You have to look like the bass player for Elvis Costello at some point.

If you're a music critic in your late 40s, early 50s. I'm not in my early 50s yet, but I feel like I'm going to have to, you know, like grill Marcus it up. Have some sort of Grail Marcus, you know, ensemble going on. A hat, glasses combination. Anyway, I'm getting off track here. Yeah, in terms of like websites in America. Yes.

And just critics in America, I feel like Brat is a lock. It just feels like that was the record that broke through. It wasn't just like a one-week wonder. People continue to talk about it. They would not shut up about Brad, the Brat Summer thing. It just feels like it's such a definitional record of this year. Now, if you're going to make a counter argument to it, you actually had a tweet about this that I think is actually very interesting.

And you made a joke about, oh, this is like music critic brain to be thinking about this. But, well, maybe I should just let you say. Like, what did you say might derail Brad? Probably not. But if it was going to get derailed, this would be the thing that would derail it. Yeah. So I alluded to this earlier about, you know, the Kamala is Brat tweet, which, you know, had a lot of people thinking, oh, you know, they've, they've kept, the, the Democrats have captured the Zyrielled. like Geist, they're going to bring out the youth vote because, you know, like it's been Brad

summer. So, yeah, that's what we were thinking, you know, not two, three months ago. And we all know how that turned out. And so there's the possibility, which I think is pretty remote, that Brat is so 2024 and now, like, kind of linked with a loser campaign that people might want to, you know, close the door on 2024. and now like kind of linked with a loser campaign that people might want to, you know, close the door on 2024 by picking something else. Like to say like, yeah, this was the album that defined the year. And, you know, it was like the most critically acclaimed album, most popular album.

But like, eh, like times have changed. Let's think of something else. And, you know, I thought about that for a second. But, you know, I think the S&L performance and the way people reacted to that. leads me to believe that that was straight up like a neuron firing for music critic brain. It's hers to lose. I don't think that there's really any argument. Like I think if there was any argument to make, it wasn't that like, oh, we associate it now

with Kamala Harris. It's more that it's just been so overexposed that it seems too obvious and that a lot of the year-end list have to do things that, you know, differentiate themselves from all the others. But this feels like Lana Del Rey in 2019 or Beyonce. in 2024, even like Fiona Apple in 2020, like anything else is really just overthinking it. You know, there's a lot of things where I can see, yeah, I could see this in top five in every list.

But I can't, with only one exception, I can think of another album that could possibly be number one on the major lists. Yeah, I think that this thing we're talking about where Brat gets linked to, let's just say, the most embarrassing aspects of 2020. I actually think that that could happen in the long run. Yes. I think that when we look back on this record, people might think about the summer of 2024,

the Brat summer, and just think like, oh, we were so stupid that summer. You know, it was like right before this, you know, election happens. And it just gets associated with this moment that people look back on. They're like, oh, my God.

Like, did I really have like the green thing and my avatar with my name on it? Like, imitating the album, Did I really do that back then? I guess I did. I don't really want to be reminded of that. I think that potential is there in the long run. I think that the list season, it's too early.

I think people are going to, I think critics, they're going to put this at the top of the list just out of obligation because it feels like it had the most cultural import in 2024. And along with you, a lot of people love that record. I mean, personally, I'm kind of mixed on it. I like the production of it. Like, I think lyrically, it's pretty insipid. So, like, that part I don't really like about it, but I like the music, and I can appreciate

Charlie X-C-X. The conversation around it I found kind of irritating, but that's okay. I was irritating about other artists, one of which we'll talk about here in a second. Is the only challenger really at the top of list, Beyonce, Cowboy Carter? I mean, it feels like that's maybe the only one, just because Beyonce is like the S&P 500 of critical favor. Like if you want to put your money in a safe place and not worry about your investment,

like you put it in Beyonce. The problem is that I feel like this record, I don't want to say it disappeared, but I feel like this record didn't really have legs. Certainly not compared to the other albums of like Beyonce's prestige era, which I would say goes back to her self-titled record in 2013. you know, that's when she really became this, like, critical behemoth, like every record she puts out automatically put at the top of the list.

Cowboy Carter feels like the slightest album, even though it's like the longest, and even though it's the album that might finally win her album of the year at the Grammys, if you care about that kind of thing. But I don't know. That feels like the only maybe semi-serious challenger. Am I wrong on that? you're you're alluding to it and that like I feel there isn't as much heat around this album as there is on Renaissance

which was kind of end to end in 2020 I do think this is going to win the Grammy and I you know in like parentheses derogatory because I don't think like I mean people love Beyonce I don't know how much people really like this album like our friend Larry Fitzgeraldry. for Reese, who definitely has his finger on the pulse of pop and the way people think about pop more than us. He called it like random access memories, but make it country, which feels like pretty accurate. Also, I think he called it like one of the worst pop albums of the year. But I don't know if this will, like this will make year endless. I don't think it'll top it.

It almost feels in a way like life of Pablo in the sense that like there's just like, yeah, this is. still something that holds the fascination of us. But like, is it actually good? I don't know. So I don't think that and also the fact I, you know, it, it sort of, I feel like this feels of a piece with tortured poets department. I mean, it's obviously, I think it's got more legs. I think it's gotten more acclaim. But in the same way, 2024 as a whole saw this like real kind of shift in terms of pop artists where like all of a sudden like Taylor Swift and Beyonce started to feel a little like I don't know whatever you want to describe like the national or like Bruce Springsteen or you two well they've been around forever forever I mean they've had a long time at the

I mean you know Beyonce goes back to the late 90s yeah and Taylor Swift is like mid aughts you know so like 20 years yeah like you got like the chapel Rhone coming up like and then even like Charlie X-E-X coming up, even though she's been around for quite a long time. Sabrina Carpenter, Olivia Rodriguez. There's just Gracie Abrams, I guess. Not in the critical sense, but like there's, this really did feel like a shift. And yeah, you might like, is this her how to dismantle an atomic bomb only time a little hotel? Did I get that album title right?

You did. Okay. And I think that also won album of the year. How did this man on atomic? I'm pretty sure that one album of the year. No line on the horizon. Is this her no line on the horizon? Yeah. Watch the space. Well, I think the atomic bomb analogy works because I do think Cowboy Carter will win album of the year.

It just feels like, okay, they have to give it. She's like the most nominated artist in Grammy history, and she's never won an album of the year, which is pretty insane. So they have to give it to her worst album of this run. I mean, that would be the Grammy's thing to do. Yes, it will. So on the indie side, I feel like the leading indie candidate is probably MJ Lenderman, Manning Fireworks,

and this is my Charlie XX, this is like the indie rock parasocial phenomenon, you know, like where people love the record, but they also like want to hang out with the person. Like Charlie XX is that on the pop side, MJ Lenderman is that on the indie side. There's also the Cindy Lee record, Diamond Jubilee,

which is, I think, still in Metacritic, one of the best reviewed albums of the year. But that came out in late March, and then Cindy Lee canceled their tour, and they've been basically radio silence ever since. There was like a Panda Bear collaboration that came out a few weeks ago. It's going to be on the upcoming Panda Bear record.

But other than that, like Cindy Lee, very deliberately, you know, kind of took themselves out of commission in terms of the public. So I still think that record's going to do really well on your end list, but it feels like maybe MJ Lenderman now has the juice. You got Waxahatchie in there as well. I think she'll do well,

although in a weird way, M.J. Lenderman might eat into her voting block a little bit because he's so on her record, and maybe you're just going to vote for Manning Fireworks. What's your take on that? I mean, do you see Lenderman being like the leading indie candidate at this point? So I think he's going to be, him and Waxahatchee are kind of similar in that. I see either one of those being like number three on every single one.

But they don't, I mean, there are albums that have had legs and people have been talking about them. But I feel like they don't quite, they don't feel quite zeitgeist-catchering in the same way that like Brad is, nor like Cindy Lee. Because Cindy Lee is the one album of the bunch that you mentioned where I do see the possibility of. it taking number one. I mean, on the pitchfork mid-decade list, Cindy Lee, I think, was number three higher than Brat. Maybe that's just like a consolation prize for an eventual switcheroo. But I do think that Cindy Lee has a narrative.

It has kind of a zeitgeist-catching thing where people are just kind of like people leaving Twitter, music publication shutting down. It just feels like a grab kind of an old way of thinking about music and can music and it's a great record as well and plus it's a double album and you know like manning fireworks is great it's also feels not slight in terms of content but just it's like a really good it's like it's like saying like a spoon album would be number one you know like a 30 minute really tight really good album i think it's more like an always situation where people have a lot of goodwill it's a record that i think people really like the thing with with with Cindy lee which again i i like that record a lot

it feels like a long time ago. When I was working on this column, I actually sent Ian a list of the people I was considering, and I was like, did I forget anyone? And I forgot Cindy Lee. It wasn't on my original list of albums to write about.

And again, that's not a slight on the record. It just feels like, it feels like a long time ago. And again, because that tour got cut short, and I think... Maybe that'll know. We don't know what happened, but it seemed like maybe there was some discomfort

with like the rush of attention that that record got, which was very unexpected. It just feels like that record is maybe a little under the radar. So that would be my only thing. But I think your reasoning otherwise is correct. I could see people wanting to stump for that record because it is the best indie rock story of the year. It is like the most heartwarming in the sense of this record being kind of an underdog. It doesn't have a big PR firm. It doesn't even have a record label behind it. It feels like a throwback to like a more innocent time, I guess, on the internet.

So that story in combination with the music, I mean, great songwriter, great guitar player. That record is very much its own world. It's really fun to spend time with it. But I just wonder if maybe it's going to be out of mind maybe for people a little bit at this point. I almost feel like going away for a while was maybe the best thing to happen to it. Because, you know, like, there was that time where everyone was like writing their, what we talk about when we talk about Cindy Lee article, myself being one of them. I actually got to see them perform live. And, yeah, I do think that it's going to be, I do think it's going to be number one in a couple of lists, you know especially if it's like very internet-based publication where it's like yeah this is our last stand

but i could see brat being number two on those but you're right like waxahatchie and mj feel like always where it's like always going to be number four but not probably not number one um anything else is yeah i i think like aside from your jack whites and your uh nick caves I don't see anything being number one other than Brat or potentially Cindy Lee. One record that I don't want to say it's flying under the radar because this is like one of the biggest pop artists

in the world right now. But like that Billy Elish record is like sneakily very well reviewed. Like it's not quite as well reviewed as Brat or Cowboy Carter but it's like a little below that. I think I had like an 89. Yeah, it was. She was wildly, wildly acclaimed.

I mean, you know, wildly in the sense that like, like, not like over, like, not overreach, but I mean, look, this is Grammy bait now, which is really hard to believe. But, yeah, it's, it's sort of like the Michael Kiwanuka status. Well, she, I mean, Billy Ilish used to be the pop artist where if you were Dave Grohl or Billy Joe Armstrong or Eddie Vedder, you'd be like, oh, Billy Joe. Billy Elish is like Nirvana You know That was like the pop artist That like

You know Rock stars in their 60s loved Now I feel like That's maybe Chapel Rhone Like we might have moved on Or like Olivia Rodriguez Was in that lane too So she's moving on to that

But I don't know I could see like a Rolling Stone Or one of the big market Like remaining left publications I could see that maybe going with Billy Eilish That would be

I mean that's a reach But I could could see that maybe happening, but again, I think it's brats to lose. It just feels like a lock at this point. Well, let's talk about an album now that may not be in the upper tier of the album of the year discussion, but for me, it will definitely be probably in my top 10 albums of the year. And it's the latest from Father John Misty. It's called Mahash Mashana. And it's the sixth Father John Misty record, and I wrote about this record, and I wrote about the entire catalog of Father John Misty for a column that was on Uprocks that actually published last week, but you can still

read it now, if you haven't read it yet. But I'm a big fan of this record. I do think it's one of his best, although it's a little tricky to say that because I am a big fan of Father John Misty. I think he's like one of the great artists of the last 15 years. I think all of his records, you could make a case for each one being his best. But I definitely feel like this record will be received by people who like what this guy does as a return to form. It's the first record he's put out since 2022's Chloe in the next 20th century, which I think is a really good record.

But it's a very different kind of Father John Misty record. It's a genre experiment essentially, a lot of kind of jazzy, kind of old world music on that album. and it felt like a record that was a deliberate departure from what we associate with Father John Misty. And if that's the case, then I think this new album is him re-embracing a lot of the sonic signatures that we associate with him. And even like lyrical themes and motifs, there's a song with Josh Tillman in the title. He's back writing Josh Tillman songs, Josh Tillman in The Accidental Dose. one of my favorite songs on the record.

The first track is this very large, grandiose, almost 10-minute song. It's the title track from the record. It sounds like all things must pass by George Harrison, that record. It sounds like that record at its most bombastic. You know, just strings and loud drums and keyboards and all this sort of orchestral-type sounds. And I think it's a really good record. we talked before about how the album's getting like so-so reviews.

I think that'll pick up. I'm curious for your take on it, because I feel like you appreciate Father John Misty, but you're not as much of a fan as I am. How does this album sound to you? I mean, do you feel like this is a return to what we associate with him? Do you feel like he's sort of continuing to go off into the sunset of like older indie rockers, like on their sixth or seventh album,

where it's fine? you know, maybe it's not as urgent anymore. What are your feelings on Josh Tillman at this point? I mean, it's kind of both. Like, Chloe in the next 20th century, I enjoyed that record. I also feel, and I don't think he's like thinking like one album ahead, but it's the kind of left turn kind of expectation dampening record that is kind of clears the deck and allows him to, like this feels like a real,

oh, return to form Father John Misty, not in the same. sense that he's like doing these awesome interviews he's doing like ones with like blackbird spy plane which is you know really kind of cool that he's doing that but um also the fact that he really did turn down a rolling stone cover uh like yeah there's a there's a lyric and i forget what song that is i think it's in um screamland or no it's in i guess uh time makes fools of us all yes yes there's a there's a line in that song where he talks about turning down the cover of rolling stone and i guess that actually happened, and then Rolling Stone told him that he's the least famous person to ever turn down a Rolling Stone cover. It's pretty funny. Yeah, which is funny because

back when I was to subscribe to the Rolling Stone, they had like Belly and like Richard Ashcroft from the Verve and Jar Jar Jar Binks on the cover. So, you know, well, they actually were on the, because they didn't turn it down. So I guess that's true. Yeah, exactly. And Jar Jax, he's probably more famous than Father John Misty. Yeah. Wouldn't you say? I think, uh, maybe. Yeah. more people did see that movie. But yeah, this does seem like pretty like return to form. The sounds really grand.

And like it, it's not altogether like the elements of Chloe. You know, like the big band stuff are just like kind of done in a more contemporary way. But yeah, it's like if this is like Father John Misty doing Father John Misty stuff. You know, I enjoy this album. I think if there's any sort of like, um, I don't know if qualms the right word, but it doesn't quite sting in the same way that like pure comedy did or, you know, even parts of I Love You Honey Bear, like, you know, the societal things. But I think that maybe works to its benefit because as you wrote about your column, like pure comedy is not dated, but like very tied into 2017. It's really hard to not think of it as a product of its environment, even though it happened before Trump.

But yeah, see, I don't think that album is tied to its time, actually. I think that was my feeling when it came out. But, I mean, I was working on this column during the whole election, you know, fiasco of this year. I mean, that, and it was amazing to me how undated that album is, actually. I actually think that pure comedy holds up really well. Oh, it does. Not only because Trump got elected again, but, I mean, I think he is writing about Universal things. I mean, I think that this record, it's interesting his development as a lyricist because I do think

the lyrics feel less direct than they have been in the past. There's still the wit and the insight that you get from older Father John Misty songs, but I feel like they're naughtier. They're more metaphorical and maybe less conversational than the earlier songs. I mean, again, the Josh Tillman song on this record, Josh Tillman in the accidental dose. I mean, that is straight out of I Love You Honey Bear or Fear Fun. I mean, it takes place at a party. It opens with this woman talking about

the Van Morrison album Astral Weeks and how much she loves jazz. I mean, that's just classic Father John Misty. So that's him very much returning to, you know, what you would call it, the classic mode of Father John Misty songwriting. But then you have the title track, which to me almost reminds me

of like those long Bob Dylan songs. Like there's a song called Changing of the Guards from Street Legal. I compared it to that in my column where it's just verse after verse after verse. And you look at it on the paper, you look at the lyrics on paper and they don't necessarily make like literal sense, but like they are very captivating and well written. And it is kind of working on a level that isn't him maybe describing what his life is like in the style of like Mr. Tillman, a song like that. It feels more of having like almost like this dream logic type quality to it.

And I think that's true of a lot of songs on this record. So I agree with that part. So that's a departure. I will say to that, like, musically, this is the most engaging record. I think he's put out in a long time. I mean, pure comedy, an album I love. that record has a grandiosity to it, but some of the songs almost sound similar to each other. It's a lot of kind of the same things going on.

I mean, this record has like, she cleans up on it, which is, you know, Father John Misty doesn't rock very often, but like that's the most rocking song he's put out since probably Hollywood Forever Cemetery sings, you know? So you have that dynamism going on in this record that I think really comes into play and makes it a strength. I don't know. Again, I'm in the tank for this guy. I'm a big stand. To me, he is like one of the great artists working today. I think in terms of his songwriting, and he package it like his ability as a performer, just the whole persona thing. I, uh, I guess this is like my 1975. Like you hear in the 1975, I hear in Father John Misty. Because I look at Matt Healy sometimes and I'm like, you're kind of doing what Father John Misty does, but in a way

less funny and compelling way. And I'm sure you would maybe look at Father John Misty and compare him negatively to Maddie Healy. I don't know what your take on that would be. Well, I thought of this, if I have to make a comparison of like, like, you know, the stuff that like you're super into versus stuff I'm super into, this makes me think of like Los Campesinos in the same, like where like lyrically it's very dense and it's like there's been a lot of records this year that I feel are kind of similar to the way Mahash Meshman

operates where it's like legacy artists that are kind of doing a return to form and like playing on their past work. You know, I talked about this with like, you know, Fred Thomas, who we talked about in the past, you know, Foxing kind of did it as well, where you've accumulated this body of work and you can kind of play on that. And then 1975, of course, do that too. I love reading your list because, like, I think Father John Nistie is a, you know, as an artist as like a presence very interesting like musically it doesn't hit the same like pleasure points as you know los campinos for 1975 but like i'm like i'm a fan of what he does even if it's not albums that i reach for all that often i did listen to pure comedy earlier this year and i'm like yeah there are some parts of it that like feel very um just for my own experience to baked into 2017 but it holds up i mean like did he

Well, wait a minute. Before we go any further, did he pass the five album test with Chloe? Yeah, I gave it to him. All right. With that, even though I think that record is a step down from the previous four. I think the previous four, I think, are uniformly excellent. And then Chloe is a record I really admire in a lot of ways. But there's a chilliness to that record that puts me off a little bit. Like, I don't embrace it quite as much as the other records.

It's more of like an admiration of that record than the love I have for the other albums. But yeah, he passed it and now he's well into like the next five with this new one. Yeah, I do think that in the future, and you're more of the Steely Dan slash Neil Young fan, but I feel like Chloe's going to be in the future kind of revered as like the kind of curveball contrarian favorite. I think that's already happening. I do another podcast about Bob Dylan with my pals from the Jokerman podcast. And we actually did an episode talking about Father John Misty, our favorite songs. And they were deep into Chloe in the next 20th century.

Not calling them contrarians, but I think those guys are prone to picking the lesser-loved album from an artist catalog. And Chloe, it does feel like that's going to be whether you want to call it the contrarians choice. or the connoisseur's choice. You know, a connoisseur would be a kinder way of saying it. I think it's definitely going to be that. The bravery and the audacity of that record, I think, is really easy to admire as well. And there's some great songs on there. I mean, like, the next 20th century.

Yeah, I love that song. That's a great song. But that breaks from the sound of that record pretty dramatically. So, yeah, I think what I love, I mean, I'm more of a singer-songwriter guy, obviously, than you are. And the things I'm attracted to with Father John Misty are the things that remind me of like the great singer songwriters of all time. The way that his albums fit together. The, you know, the certain, I guess, characteristics that you can associate with him. The willingness to alienate people.

Yeah. Which is a common attribute of a lot of artists I love. It all feeds into just me just really loving this guy. And in this record, I think, again, it. It's so easy to like. If you are a Father John Misty fan, this will be catnip to you. It gives you all the things that you love about this guy in a very compelling and great package. So I'm a big fan of this record.

Get your shit together, critics. Get it up to an 80. I'm Metacritic at least. Come on. You're embarrassing yourselves. Review this record well. It deserves it. I think it's time for our mailbag segment.

Thank you all for writing in. You can hit us up at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com. Ian, I know you're very excited about our question this week. This is one of the better questions we've gotten in a while. So I'll let you read it. Yeah, I was like watching the clock. I'm like, please God, let us do this one, you know, because I know that we go along sometimes and like our mailbag kind of piles up.

But it's like, no, we have to do this because it's somewhat timely. So this is, I'll just read the title. letter, most dudes rock QB. We could do an entire episode on this, but we'll try to keep this concise. Hey, Stephen Ian, more of a sports cast question, but who would you say is the most dudes rock quarterback of all time? This topic came up in my group chat today, the day after Josh Allen's rushing touchdown against the Chiefs.

It's been a great excuse to remember some guys, but Josh was our clear frontrunner. Some other names mentioned were college years Johnny Manzeel and Mike Vic, or guys who just tick the Just Vibes box like Kyle Orton or Gardner Minchu. honorable mention to Dan Marino, the song, maybe not as much the actual guy. Keep out hashing out trends in the free world, Evan and Buffalo. This is a first ballot candidate

for the most indie cast, mailback question of all time. Yeah, Evan, this is great. And God, you gotta just be living the dream right now. Buffalo Bill's looking great. Josh Allen. Man, that play on fourth, was it fourth and two at the end of that game

where he just bust a long run into the end zone? just the incredible quarterback. He's dating Haley Steinfeld. I did not know that. Yeah. So good for him. Dating beautiful actresses. So when I saw this question, the name that popped immediately in my head for most dudes rock quarterback of all time was Jake Plummer.

Of the Denver Broncos back in the 2000s. I feel like he's maybe a little forgotten at this point. I mean, he might be like a remembersome guys type player in 2024. But like in his day, like he was a really good quarterback. Got the Brock goes to the playoffs a few times. He was the quarterback. I don't know if he was like right before Peyton Manning. I know because they had Tim Tebow for a while.

They were like a year or two, yeah. Yeah, but Jake Plummer just comes to mind because, you know, he had the beard. He had the shaggy hair, basically a hippie. You know, he retires. and just goes into obscurity. It doesn't seem to care about celebrity at all. He ends up marrying a Denver Broncos cheerleader. And I think he lives like in Idaho or something.

That sounds about right. He advocates for like medical marijuana. And I don't know. He just seems like he's chilling and just seems like a really cool guy, like a guy you'd want to hang out with. So he comes to mind as a dude's rock candidate for quarterback. Um, Ken Stabler, came to mind. I mean, you could pick a lot of quarterbacks from the 70s, but Kenny Stable, if you don't remember, I mean, this is before my time even.

He was the quarterback for the Oakland Raiders in the 70s. And again, had the beard, had the scruffy hair, seemed like a bit of a ladies man. His nickname was Snake. Yes. Which is one of the awesome nicknames of all time. Yeah, because Jake Plummer is like, you know, Jake the Snake, but like Kenny Stavely. Yeah. Yeah, but like Kenny Staveller is like, he doesn't name the snake.

It didn't even rhyme. So that's how he earned it. By the way, Jake Plummer. And he's the original snake. Yeah, by the way, Jake Plummer, not a wee guy. He's a mushrooms guy. Oh, there you go. Even better.

Yeah, look at his picture. He looks like he was a member of Incubis. Yeah, he is exactly what you would think he is. Yeah, he's dudes rocked to the Supreme. I was trying to think of like modern day quarterbacks that would fit this. And there's not many because I think like quarterbacks are so buttoned up now. They can't really be total dudes rock lifestyle. Like Aaron Rogers clearly aspires to be that.

Like he wants to be Jake Plummer, but he's not. It's not organic at all. He's forcing it. He's trying to be Jake Plummer by emulating like Joe Rogan or something. It just doesn't work. The only person that came to mind that sort of works is Kyler Murray from Arizona Cardinals. Just because he's like into video games. Yeah.

He loves video games. I was like a big controversy with him, that he loved video games too much, and that, you know, that that was going to be the thing that kept him from being like an elite quarterback. But I don't know. He just seems like he's probably a good hang. He just, like, wants to, you know, eat pizza and drink Mountain Dew, play video games. So he's the closest thing to a dude's rock, like, in the modern NFL. But yeah, I'm going to go with Jake Plummer and Kenny Stabler for me.

How about you? Yeah, I mean, Kenny Stabler, like, he looked like a dude who would, like, either. inspire a Warren Zivon song or like actually hang out with Warren Zivon like this is back when you could be a quarterback who showed up drunk to the game he's like an eastbounded down character. Yeah, very much so. He could

have totally, he could have just played himself on that show. Exactly. So yeah, I think that if we're looking at the past like Joe Namath has to count because like he yeah, like quarterbacking was really just like a lost leader for him like trying to date models and like I think the best most

dudes rock part of it is that he won that Super Bowl, but like, he wasn't even that good of a quarterback. Like, his career is like kind of just okay, which is why I think Eli Manning kind of fits that realm of like, yeah, being kind of dudes rock because like he's kind of the kind of fail, not the fail brother, but just like kind of the kind of dude. He seems like he seems a little more socially app than Peyton Manning. But, you know, I think when you mentioned Josh Allen, this, this is really where I think we have to talk about like what defines dudes rock because like aesthetically yes he's from uh he played football

at uh in college at wyoming and now he's in buffalo and you know he just has this kind of gun slinger mentality but he's also like a physical freak his arm is just insane and his he can run and i think dudes rock you kind of have to be physically limited um and like kind of like getting over certain limitations just to like win on vibes. And so you bring this point up where a lot of the court, like you kind of have to be a sociopath to be an NFL quarterback, but it's now in a way that's like downstream from Kobe Bryant where it's like kind of reading the business section at the airport bookstore like, you know, Mamba mentality.

I think there's a lot of Mamba mentality in quarterbacking with like Pat Mahomes now and, you know, Russell Wilson, just like weird but not cool guys. And I mean, I think that it's when we're look. I think you have to look through the backups for the dudes rock quarterbacks. Like guys like maybe Chase Daniel or Blaine Gabbert who have just like hung around because they have cool vibes. Maybe Andy Dalton, the Red Rifle, that's a very dudes rock name. But, you know, Jared, I think we got to talk about like Jared Lorenzo, the late Jared

Lorenzen. He was like a 275 pound quarterback. That guy was very. dudes rock but I think this just kind of speaks to how another way that college has superior to the NFL because you could have so many dudes rocks quarterbacks at the college level because like you don't have to actually be good you just have to just like kind of use your talent and

get by on you can throw like three interceptions as long as your team wins I mean no will ever touch Steve tanny hill that is an eastbounding back east bound and down character you played for like South Carolina in the 90s You got Anthony Calandrio, wild-ass white boy on UVA this year, Kurt Bankert. This is where you're remembering some guys happen. But yeah, I think it's a very shallow pool for dudes rock QBs.

What about James Winston? I think James Winston would be a pretty good hang. I mean, he's had some, like, kind of troublesome off-the-field incidents. Didn't he, like, steal, like, a chicken from like a chicken wing? Crabs. He stole, like, I think it was like crabs from. From like the cafeteria? Yeah, something like that.

But, you know. But you know, whatever. He probably got dared to do that. I'm not going to hold that against him. Yeah. But James does seem to have good vibes. The people really do voucher. I think there's other quarterbacks like, you know, you're Russell Wilson's.

Oh, terrible. Yeah, I don't think. Can you imagine hanging out with Russell Wilson? Oh, my God. He's like one of those dudes you hear about who like raw dogs flights and just like stares at the, like it stares at the chair in front of. him for like 12 hours. You know, I hate to say this because he's had many off the field incidents.

And, I mean, he was campaigning for Trump before the election. But my former Green Bay Packers quarterback Brett Farrb, I think, is a pretty dude's rock quarterback. I think it was. Falcons era, yeah, definitely. Even with the Packers, I read his biography. And, like, what he was doing in the mid-90s was pretty crazy in terms of, you know, just going out to bars all the time. I mean, he was literally rocking in the mid-90s,

just going to like just dirtbag bars in northeastern Wisconsin. So, yeah, that era Brett Farr, which I will always love, does not matter what he does later on because I have too much of my childhood memories wrapped up in that guy. It'd be like saying, well, stop believing in Santa Claus because, you know, he robbed a bank. It's like, well, I still love Santa Claus because he was nice to me. 30 years ago. So I have to be that way with Brecht Farr.

For me, it's like the 93 Phillies because, you know, like Kurt Schilling just turns out be this right-wing asshole. And like Lenny Dykstra is also this like right-wing grifter. And, you know, that whole team is just like cursed. But man, that was a dudes rock team. Just moots everywhere on that team. Isn't that Mitch Williams on that team? That was Mitch Williams. That was Pete and Kevillia. Darren Dalton, like one of the more prolific drug users of, uh, Bates. baseball. He was like a psychedelics guy, yeah. Just imagine like how bad that locker room smelled. You know it smell crazy in there. Just the BO from that rag tag unit would kill most people.

We're now recently part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right. So this is an album that's gotten a little bit of burn on what's left of Twitter. Like I do think things have changed in Twitter is just not what it used to be. But a lot of people I trust have brought up this 22-degree. Halo album called Lilia the Valley. Every year, there is a kind of a low-key record that gets released in November. It makes like a real charge up my year-end list, just, you know, recency bias,

or it just hits hard when there's not a lot else of note out. And this one's happening here. So this is like a, I believe they're Philly-based. They're making very Philly sounding music. It's not that far removed from like what Wild Pink was doing early on or stuff you hear on double-double whammy or Lamo. it's a concept album about the singer's lead singer's wife getting diagnosed with like brain cancer. Apparently she's recovered.

But, you know, there's a song called CBS on a walk, another song about the Baltimore Orioles. And, you know, as dark as grim as it sounds, it's a pretty breezy listen. It's about like a half hour and could pass for, quote, porch music. Yeah, because it's got that kind of 90s low mid-fi indie rock, jammy, kind of jam-adjacent sound. but lyrically very hitting, but it's not like an album that you have to listen to and just like take the rest of the day off. Surprisingly breezy for such a heavy record. And yeah, I imagine that people who like both the things that me and Steve recommend

on a recommendation corner will find something to love about this one. You speak in my language with that description. I definitely got to check that record out. I want to talk about a guy named Lee Baggett who put out a record recently called Waves for a beagle. For those who don't know, Lee Baggett, he's a singer-songwriter, originally from the Philippines, and he's currently based in Olympia, Washington. And a lot of people have recommended this record to me. My buddy Jake Longstreath, he was pushing for it.

My buddy Andy Pickett out there, he was pushing for it, and then I read about it this week in Josh Terry's Substack Newsletter, No Expectations. So a lot of people I trust, similar to you, I guess, with the record you recommended, have brought it up to me. And sure enough, I checked out the album and I really, really like it. And I hate when people describe music like this where they say,

oh, it's like this, but on drugs. But I will say this record does remind me of like a mid-70s Neil Young record with like a heavy dose of Xanax applied to it. It just has like that crunchy, you know, jammy folk rock sound, but it just feels woozy.

You know, it's a little slow, it's a little like, almost like blurry sounding, almost like someone, you know, is trying to keep their footing after being hit in the head with a two by four. You know, that's the sound of this record. But also, it has awesome guitar solos and really cool, like Fender Rhodes, keyboard parts. And it's just a really groovy record. I like it a lot. Again, it's called Ways for Beagle from Lee Baggett. Definitely check it out. I feel like both of these records are going to be pretty good.

good. You know, if you can't hang out on the patio still where you live, it sounds like both of these records would be very good for that environment. Yeah, I also like how to come up with this description, you had to think of a drug that Neil Young wasn't doing in the 70s to like make it sound a little different. I mean, I'm sure he was taking ludes back in the day, which would be a similar type thing to, it would be a much stronger feeling, obviously, than just taking a Xanax. But, Yeah, they don't make quailudes anymore. We never, we miss the quailude generation. Yeah, they actually banned quail-like, and it's so funny because you like people like say like, like, though we don't have, we don't know what to do about drugs.

They manage to ban quailudes. It is a proof of concept if they ever want to take drugs off the market. But, you know, think of what we lost, which are Neil Young's 70s records. Yeah, it's, it's one of the best, it's, it's one of the coolest names for a drug. Yes. Quailude. You ever hear that day? Dennis Leary album, No Cure for Cancer.

He talks about Ludes. I don't remember that part. I remember that album. Yeah. Ludes, dude, let's call the fucking Ludes. Yeah, so, wow. I never thought we, not much to recommend with Dennis Liery, but yeah, that's where I learned what Kwayludes were when I was 13.

Well, he probably borrowed that routine from... Bill Hicks. Yeah, exactly. Lifted it from Bill Hicks. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news, reviews, and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.