Indiecast - Assessing the Legacies of Beck and Jack White

Episode Date: July 17, 2026

Steven and Ian start by talking about great Canadian bands (0:36) and Steve's road trip this week to see Rush and The Strokes (not together) (4:11). Then they discuss the new Beck album announcement and revisit his overall work and where his legacy currently stands (13:24), followed by a similar conversation about Jack White and his new LP (31:12). Then they update the Fantasy Albums Draft (40:58) and discuss the week's new releases (42:27). In Recommendation Corner, Ian recommends Snag and Steven recommends Twisted Teens (54:40). See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indicast is presented by Amazon Music. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, we review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about new music from Beck and Jack White. Some classic rockers for you out there. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's the Getty Lee to My Alex Lifson. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? If we're going to start out talking Canadian rock legends, we should use one that our listeners. could recognize, such as I'm the Rainer, I'm the Raina to your Mike Turner. I mean, come on. You don't know who those are. No idea. Who is that? I have no idea.

Who is that? Clumsy, Starseed, Superman's dead. Am I getting anywhere with this? Oh, my God. We need to be a real R lady piece posting. Oh, my God. It's like, are you speaking English here? I know what.

You're just throwing out random nouns and, uh, adjectives here. Our Lady Peace, I think this band's come up before on the show. I do not have, they are a total blind spot for me. And the last time we talked about this, I remember we got like one very indignant email from somebody. You know, just, just castigating me for not knowing about Our Lady Peace. And I was just trying to explain, it's not a judgment on Our Lady Peace.

I've literally never listened to them. They just like passed me by. I mean, that would have been, like, late 90s, right? And they weren't on the radio, right? They were totally on the radio. Were they? Wow. They had, like, B-level, like, if you, do you, you know the Verve pipe, right?

Of course. Yeah, Verve pipe is, they're on another level of ubiquity, of post-grunt ubiquity from Our Lady Peace. I feel like they were on the same sort of lane, if not the same level. of popularity? Yeah, but they don't have the freshman. The freshman is a big, there is no Our Lady piece equivalent to the freshman. Well, Clumsie really tried and Superman's Dead really tried. Because like the freshman, because when I was listening to the radio the most in the late 90s, it was when I was working at my school paper, and we listened to the crappy

top 40 station in town. I don't know why we listened to this. It was what the staff could agree upon. And the verve pipe got played on this station because of the freshman. The verb did not get played on this station. The verve pipe, though, did. But yeah, Our Lady Peace, they totally

passed me by. So, like, when you're dropping names, song titles, I'd no idea. But you know who Getty Lee and Alex Life Center. I do know who he is. And I do know them. I've not listened to a Rush album. And by the way, I think you'd like to know this.

the process of looking up, Our Lady Peace's names. There was some website, Bridge 909, that did the Canadian band championship belt. So, yeah, they're kind of ripping off your whole thing. I guess. Our Lady Peace ranked on this? No, but Blue Rodeo is. Okay, Blue Rodeo, yes. I know Blue Rodeo.

I don't know Our Lady Peace. I do know Canadian alt country. I apparently don't know Canadian post-grunge of the late 90s. Tragically hip hold the belt from 1991 to 2004. Yeah. I'm a hip fan. I like the hip. And you can tell because I called them the hip.

The non-fans call them the tragically hip. But the, you know, the real heads call them the hip. I feel a little weird saying that, not being Canadian. I feel like a little bit of an imposter. But I'm from northern, you know, the upper Midwest, Wisconsin, Minnesota. It's practically Canada. So I think they would grandfather me in. Anyway, I was making a Rush joke at the top of the episode because I am taking a road trip to Chicago to see Rush on their big reunion tour with Getty Lee, Alex Lifeson, and their new drummer replacing the late great Neil Pert.

And I don't remember her name right now. I should have had this in the outline. But she's apparently doing a bang up job. I'm going to go see Rush on Thursday. So the day before this post, we're recording this episode a little bit early because I'm going on this road trip. I'm going to see Rush.

I'm planning to visit the graves of muddy waters and Holland Wolf while I'm in Chicago. Speaking of, do you go deep on muddy or Holland Wolf, Ian? I had that Jimmy Hendrix blues album called Blues. That'll work. That'll work. And then on Friday, I'm going to go see the strokes. in Milwaukee with

Thundercat and Cage the Elephant. The very confusingly named Cage the Elephant. The conversation we've had many times on this show, maybe I'll find out the answer, whether they are named after an elephant named Cage or if they are about caging an elephant. We still don't know the answer to that. I really feel like Cage the Elephant

is the American answer to Our Lady Peace in terms of their level of ubiquity. But I know Cage. Well, see, I know the name. I guess you're right, because I know the names of both Bams. I could not name one song by either. Do you know any band members of Cage the Elephant? I don't, but I've said this many a time.

Like, when I was living in Kentucky, there were so many people from particularly the western part of the state, Bowling Green, that had Cage lore. So, but I did not remember their names. I want to say Mike Turner is probably, a good guess. I know that's the original guitarist, not the current guitarist of Our Lady Peas, but I think there's at least

a good chance that Cage the Elephant will have a guy named Mike Turner in it. No, they don't. They have a Matt Schultz. Close. It's close. I looked them up. I was hoping that there'd be a guy named Cage in the band, but there's not.

Unless he's left. Maybe it's a Jim Blossom situation where the founding genius gets fired from the band as they rise the prominence. Cage the Elephant is a band I've seen live before. Same. Opening for other bands.

They're always opening for other bands. I don't know if they've ever done a headlining tour. I'm sure they have, but... Always opening for RAGEA. They're always opening for red hot chili peppers or the strokes. See, I saw them open for the black keys. I saw them open for somebody else. And now I'm going to see them open for the strokes.

I'm a little self-conscious about admitting this, but I'll do it because I believe in transparency with our audience. This is my first time seeing the strokes. I wrote a book about the strokes coming out in September. It's called Is This It, the Neverending Rise and Fall of the Strokes in Rock and Roll? But as I was writing the book, I had never seen the strokes live. This will be the first time. And I'm saying this before I'm seeing them. Maybe I'm jinksing myself. Maybe something will happen and I won't actually get to see them. But I'm excited. I've heard good things about this tour. And I just want to say, you know, the strokes, you know, they're doing amphitheaters.

So like a big time headlining tour. They haven't done a tour like this. I feel like in a long time. I think like this show they're doing in Milwaukee, it's their first show in Wisconsin since 2011. So in 15 years. And I lived in Wisconsin for a long time. But the strokes, you know, they haven't done.

like, I would say like a regular tour, it feels like in a while. It feels like they were a band that was only playing festivals for the longest time. Like they would play Austin City Limits or Lollapalooza or Outside Lands. And then maybe they would do some shows in the vicinity of those festivals. But for those of us in the heartland of America, it's been hard to see them. Like they were doing a lot of touring early on on those first two records. But I was broke then. I lived in a small town in Wisconsin. I didn't have the guest list access that I have now

and the money I spent on shows. It just was few and far between. So I didn't see a lot of concerts really at that time. And when I finally had the money and the means and I had maybe the ability to get on guest lists, they just were never around. So it just has never worked out until now. So I'm excited to see them.

Have you seen the strokes? I was thinking about this too. And given that I went to Coachella every year from 2008 to 2015, I figured I had to have seen the strokes at some point. They played in 2011. I don't remember that. Otherwise, never seen them live. And I think it's, look, I'm not writing a book about them, but I'm also writing a book about Midwest email. I've never set foot in Omaha or at least up to now, Champaign, Illinois.

But yeah, they just never really struck me as a band that like toured all that often, you know, at a point where you and I could afford to see them, you know, because when they were first starting out, like, no, we did not live in New York and we'd not live in L.A. And then by the time I moved to L.A., that was 2006. That would have been after first impressions of Earth. and I probably wasn't going to go see them live then. So, yeah, never seen them live. They never really struck me as a particularly essential live act.

Well, I think, I mean, the clips I've seen of them lately, like that performance at Coachella, I thought was really great. I mean, they're not a band that is going to jam out or change their songs a tremendous amount. But they're a really good live band, I think. I listened to a lot of bootlegs and I watched a lot of bootleg videos as I was writing this book,

especially from those early years. And they're at the point now where they can play like a 15-16 song set that feels like a Tom Petty set. I always describe that as like, like the Tom Petty set to me is you pull into an amphitheater and you can play for an hour and 45

and it feels like every song is a hit. And it's not, that the strokes have a ton of hits necessarily, but they've got a lot of recognizable jams that you can mix up between the, you know, the recognizable songs from the first couple records. And then you've got the songs from like the new abnormal that people like a lot. I mean, there is a thing with the strokes now where there is an audience that loves the new abnormal. I don't know if as much as is this it, but like that's their strokes record. So, and I really love the new abnormal. So I'm totally down with that. Get some angles in there. I'd love to hear that. Some,

you know, come down machine. Obviously, first impressions of earth. It's going to be a great time. I'm really excited for it. And of course, the real main event will be Cage the Elephant, figuring out what their band name means. But it'll be a good time. Let me ask you this before we go any farther, because this is great, this is great trivia. Have Cage the Elephant won more Grammy Awards or Iheart Radio Music Awards? Well, I heart radio music, I would say. Incorrect. They've never won I Heart Radio Music Award. They've been nominated many a time. They've won two Best Rock Album Grammys.

Wow. Tell me I'm pretty in 2020's social cues relevant. I should have known that you were setting me up for the trick because they seem like the ultimate like I Heart Radio Band Award Band. Yeah. And but they also seem like a band. Now that I think of it, that would win, you know, Grammys for album of the year, just being the anonymous rock band that probably is really easy to work with, you know. I guarantee they've opened for back. Yeah, yeah, I mean, they're the band that everyone wants to open for them. So they obviously know how to network. People love them.

They're easy to work with. They're not trash in the hotel room. They're being respectful of the writer. They're not stealing, you know, Julian Casablancus's cheese. you know, or things off his sausage plate. So it's a good thing. Let's vote for them for Grammys. It makes sense.

So it'll be a good time. And you wrote this in the headline. This was a good joke that we didn't really pursue. But the idea of rush and the strokes being on the same bill, like that would be a pretty amazing show. Basically, that's what the voids are, I think. Yeah. If you combined Rush and the strokes, you would end up with the voids.

So it may be. like some aerial pink. Mix that in there as well. You mentioned Beck there a minute ago. I don't know if you were trying to set up a segue here, but if you were, you did a good job. There is a new Beck album that was announced this week. It's called Ride Lonesome. You might remember that Beck released a single earlier this year called Ride Lonesome. I don't know why you would remember that, but he did. And it seemed like he was going to be setting up an album at some point. He didn't announce an album right away, but he finally announced it this week. It's going to be out September 18th. Now, Ian, I'm going to ask you a question. Ride Lonesome. Do you think this is one of those like funky, upbeat,

I'm working with Farrell Williams type back albums? Or do you think that this is going to be one of those like sad singer-songwriter morning phase sea change type albums ride lonesome what what do you think that album's going to be all right so sea change 2002 morning phase 2014 that's 12 years yes 2026 ride lonesome and also i'm assuming look it was so crazy i think you just like kind of put this in the ether because the other day at the gym they were playing the Beck song colors for some reason. Like that's 2017, right? I have no idea what this song sounds like.

I was listening to Deza Paracitos, read music, speak Spanish. But I saw it on the TV. I assume the last two have been more of the like funk funky Beck going on. Ride Lonesome just sounds like going back to the Grammy Bate. Yeah, of course it is. I mean, it is the most give away the game album title. that you could have. I mean, he could have called it sad clown or he could have called it like lonely sunset or something like that, but ride lonesome. I mean, you brought like the numerology into it,

which is blowing my mind because you're right. You had the 12 years between sea change and morning phase and now you have a 12 year gap between ride lonesome and morning phase. Is that a Scientology thing? Like, is the number 12? A Scientology? Does that represent holistic well-being or something? I wonder. I mean, it could be. I'm more along the line. Like, if we're talking about like 5% or numerology, like Wootang stuff, I could tell you, absolutely. But yeah, this is, I think he's kind of like Shadoloy from Scientology. I'm not going to speculate on that. I'm not going to speculate. I'm joking about the numerology. Unless I'm not. If we have a

any Scientology listeners out there that could explain if there's a significance of the number 12. But anyway, I wrote something recently about Beck's career. I didn't know this album was going to be announced. I just ended up being a coincidence. But I wrote something last week for my substack, evil speakers, just an in-depth. It was like 5,000 words. I had way more to say about Beck than I expected. But I just wrote about his career.

I wrote about all of his albums. and I actually had a really good time reinvesting his catalog. I feel like we've talked about Beck a little bit on this show. To me, his career trajectory is so fascinating because, you know, for people of our generation, people that came up in the 90s, Beck is, I think, in arguably one of the giants of that decade in terms of alt rock or indie rock, whatever you want to call it. from 94 to 99 in particular, he was one of the most important influential artists going from mellow gold and loser to O'Doleilay to mutations

and then I would say that era ends with midnight vultures, a very divisive record. You and I are on the same page. Neither one of us like that album really, but a lot of people do. I wrote critically of that album on my substack. I think it's a record that is a. impossible to explain to someone born in the 21st century why this album was considered good. I just think it's a record that, like, if you played it for anyone in their 20s or teens now, they would think that this is like, oh, this is like Napoleon Dynamite dancing to Jemiriqui

in the movie. You know, if you try to explain that, no, this is actually one of the most critically acclaimed artists of the 90s, and this was a record that, you know, was following up O'Dalae, one of the masterpieces of the 90s, I think they would not comprehend that if you try to explain that to a younger person. Right? I mean, you're not saying anything here. Am I alone on this?

Because I think you agree with me on that, right? I totally agree with you. It's funny because when I think about like Beck falling off or like, yeah, like, because yeah, sea change definitely, I don't, like, was that an album that was like, commercially successful? I mean, so, okay, so here's the thing with Beck

is that he has this 90s period and then he has C-Change in 2002, which I think is a record that had a lot of resonance at the time. Then he kind of goes into this period in like the mid-2000s, Guero and the information, which on this

revisit, I actually liked those records more than I expected. Those were probably the two most surprising records. But I think that is the beginning of Beck making Beck sounding music as opposed to what he was known for in the 90s, which was this hybrid of different styles or doing genre-specific exercises like a singer-songwriter record with mutations or more of like an R&B funk record with Midnight Vultures. And then obviously in the 2010s he has this resurgence

with morning phase that wins the album of the year at the Grammys. It beats Beyonce, which is a double-edged sword, I guess, pop culturally. because he was cast as like basically the white dude with a guitar who stole the Grammy from Beyonce, a very dubious position to be in, kind of a weird position for someone like Beck to be in, who again I think was the epitome of like hipster cool 20 years before that. He's an interesting figure to me because I think of all the 90s giants of music, I feel like he has had the biggest fall-up in terms of just his cultural, import. And it's a tricky thing with that because he's clearly still a celebrity. I think he's

obviously one of the most famous artists of the alternative world from the 90s. And this record, it's his first in seven years. There's going to be a tour with it. I'm sure it'll do quite well. It's not like he is living under a bridge somewhere and he's not still successful. I mean, that's obviously not true. But I think when I think about the 90s and all of the artists from that time that get discussed by younger generations and that get litigated and relitigated. And I feel like every corner of music pretty much from that time has been litigated or relitigated, whether we're talking about New Metal or Grunge or Britney Spears or boy bands or whatever it is. But Beck is someone I never hear come up. In Odelay,

which just turned 30, by the way, with Neri, of like a recognition, really. Very little conversation about it. 30 year, you don't really see that. I know, but was there a lot of conversation for the 25th anniversary? I feel like that record, unlike, say, a Duky or like a jagged little pill or a nevermind, which all sold more records. But I don't think, I don't know if they were necessarily like more influential than O'Dole was in the back half of the 90s.

I think that that record, in its combination of like sort of rock and hip hop, in its own way, did as much to birth a lot of, like, rap rock, and then the pop music that came out of that as much as anything else. And it's interesting to think about O'Doway being the record that on one hand, you know, was compared to like Highway 61 revisited and Xcel on Main Street in like the Rolling Stone Review. but that record also being the album that when you listen to it now sounds like the birthplace of like smash mouth and things like that, you know, which is not Beck's fault. But, you know, it's a really interesting legacy with him. I feel like people don't even want to argue about Beck. No.

It's not like they think he sucks or they think it's underrated now. He's just not someone who generates a lot of debate or interest, I feel like. And it's a fascinating development to me. I actually think his records, his best records, I think really hold up better than I would have maybe guessed going into this project that I did, you know, this article. But not for the reasons that people talk about. I feel like as a hybrid artist, and I know you want to talk about other artists like that of that ilk of the 90s, I feel like that whole thing.

is a little overstated. And I think his ability as a songwriter is actually underrated. I think that he's actually better, like, with melody and hooks. And his lyrics, which are famously sort of, I mean, he hates this description of it, but they're the cut and paste style of lyricism. They don't make literal sense. But I think that his songs hold together as songs better than he gets credit for. It's like the innovative aspects of his music that I think make less of an impact now, which makes sense because everything like that always eventually seems old hat.

Anything that seems cool or innovative in the moment 30 years later is not going to look that way, in part because of the bad things that you inspire or the smash mouths that you inspire, which again isn't your fault. But anyway, he is weirdly kind of underrated in a way. and also maybe kind of overrated in a way, if that makes sense? It does. I think he can be both because you think about his cultural impact. And we've talked about plenty of artists of this ilk, you know, like in our most recent Hall of Fame episode, if I can give a little shout to that, Amazon Exclusive,

I talk about a British band that I think is very much post-back. But I think about mellow gold. I liked, you know, Whiskey Clone Hotel City 1997 and beer can, steal my body home like these are all songs that really hold up aside from the extreme 90ness of it all and um yeah i thought about like gero man like next to i would say odalai that album was the back one that felt like it was everywhere i i remember hearing e pro all the time in 2005 i think of it along the lines of like youtube's vertigo in that it felt like it was in every advertisement even if it wasn't. But I think honestly, like, what's the thing that most people think about

no back for now being a Scientologist probably? That's the first thing that usually comes up. I mean, there is something interesting with him too, like where to go back to the Midnight Vulture's idea, which is a record that a lot of people love. Like when I wrote about it, I had a lot of people in my comments defending Midnight Vultures. So there's a lot of people who are fans of that. And there's actually like a pretty big segment of the critical community that loves midnight vultures that I think took it in the moment as a rebuke of like raucist people because especially after sea change came out and it got the five-star review from Rolling Stone and people were like, okay, he's writing these serious songs now and he's not, you know, messing around with these

kind of novelty R&B genre exercises. And there's this segment of the critical community that is always reacting to like the yon winner voice in their head. And these are critics of our generation, not younger critics have gotten past this. But critics who are our age, you know, they have a yon winner voice in their head or they have like an Anthony de Curtis review that they read in Rolling Stone in 1996 that they're still mad about. and everything they write in a way is reacting against that. So you're like trying to stick it to like the balding baby boomer in your head who thinks that Beck should be just a guitar player and he shouldn't make funk records. So for that segment of the critical community, I think Midnight Vultures became a sort of a symbol of what they needed to defend and see change was this stodgier alternative. that. I happen to think that Beck at heart is a singer-songwriter and there's a certain blankness

to Beck that actually accidentally lends itself to these heartbroken records because there's a numbness to the sound of like sea change and morning phase, this sort of like, um, sort of mumbly, stone face like I've just had my heartbroken and I can barely move my mouth because I'm so heartbroken type thing that's what those records are trying to convey and Beck kind of has that anyway you know he's always had a remoteness I think to him a little bit emotionally which I think is the thing that maybe keeps me from totally embracing him as a great artist because I don't listen to Beck records I don't get like an emotional feeling from that. them for the most part. I admire the construction of them and I think that he's a good songwriter.

His songs get stuck in my head. I mean, to go back to O'Dalae, while I think some production aspects of that album are dated, the songs are really good. I mean, there are tons of catchy, well-written songs. I think the singles hold up well, you know, deep cuts like Lord Only knows and Sissy Neck, songs like that, I think hold up really. well. Some of this might be a hangover from the 90s. I don't know if a younger person would feel that way. Have you listened to Odley recently? I have not listened to Odell. Not even from reading my story. You weren't like, I'm going to toss on Odelay here for a sec. You weren't like, I want to hear devil's haircut. I was thinking about it for sure. For whatever reason, I started listening to a lot.

I've been like trying to do a run through of the Sonic Youth Catalog. But yeah, I have not, I do plan on doing it the thought crossed my mind but i was on from work it's like you know i'm gonna listen to rx poppy's therapy session instead that's no fault of beck it's just that what else do i want to listen to after a hard day at the office well it'll happen throw on mutations throw on odalais um i did that is the most recent one i did listen to is mutations i have very distinct memories of going to the uh college book store at virginia and like special spending money I was supposed to spend on books on mutations and thinking, you know, We Live Again was a pretty cool song.

Yeah, I mean, that's one of my favorite back. That's a record that I think, you know, that was his, that was one of his first pivot records. Like he would do this pattern basically where he would do the funkier record and then he would do the singer-songwriter record. So you had like, oh, you had mellow gold and then you had one. One Foot in the Grave. You had Odolay, then you had mutations. You had Midnight Vultures, and then you had sea change.

You know, he did that back and forth. I think mutations is the one for me where it's more refined than one foot in the grave. One foot in the grave, I think is a really good record, too. I like that early, you know, like stereotypathic soul manure era and mellow gold and one foot in the grave. I think those are all, those still really hold up. But mutations, it's like more refined. than one foot in the grave, but it's not as self-serious as C-Change. It's like the just right thing in the middle.

You know, it's the first record with Nigel Godrich. And he really brought, you know, all the twinkle from OK computer into mutations. Mutations, I think, is actually like a really good, like, pre-Y2K record. That's what I associate it with. It came out in, like, holiday season of 98, so it was about a year. It's like when Y2K really started to pick up. there is sort of like a dread of the future on that album that I think it really works in that vein.

And it is, I think, one of the records, for a guy that I think is hard to read emotionally, that I think is one of his relatively direct emotional, one of his relatively emotional direct records. One thing I want to bring up sort of like a parallel conversation to Beck, and we teased this at the beginning of the episode. But Jack White is back. He put out a record last week called Frozen Charlotte. And I also wrote about this on my substack because I'm addicted to writing about Jack White's solo records.

I've written a lot about Jack White's solo records. I was thinking about this. I've written like kind of big reviews of almost every one of them, I think except for like Lazzaretto. Like I didn't write about Lazzaretto for whatever reason. but I wrote a lot about like blunderbuss. I wrote a big thing for Grantland about that. I wrote about all the records that he put out between 2018 and 2022 that like no one likes.

And I was like the one guy that was like, this is kind of interesting. What he's doing here? Like boarding house reach and what was the record? Fear of the dawn and entering heaven alive. Have you heard a note of any of those records he in? I it's sort of like the Beck 2017 like post morning phase or whatever that one's called like I just have to trust you in the same way that you trust me to know the members of our lady peace exactly are naming yeah I've not listened to any of them at all I'm not even sure again this is a personal flaw I don't know if I listen to Icky thump all the way through ever so oh wow yeah I know right so you bailed that early in check way yeah I did like get behind me say yeah I did really like get behind me Satan um but beyond that yeah like white stripes um yeah i i just don't really

do i it's so interesting listening to new jack white records because like new and by new i mean like the last couple like no name uh which i think was really well received 2024 yeah that was the beginning of him to me figuring out finally what solo jack white should be which is basically exactly Like, because he went through this period, you know, that 2018 to 22, 2022 era is, I think, a fascinating era. And to me, the reason I love it is that I love classic rock wilderness periods, you know, like 80s Dylan. Or like the 80s Rolling Stones or, I mean, really like all of these people in the 80s, you know, Neil Young, you know, had the same thing. You know, where you go through this period where you're out of fashion and you're experimenting with. new technology that is in vogue at the time.

And no one, and you kind of look like you're over the hill. But then in retrospect, people go back and they're like, oh, there's actually some cool stuff here, either ironically or not ironically. I mean, less and less ironically. I mean, in Dylan circles, 80s Dylan is just now considered straight up good, you know, for the most part. I mean, like, you know, like down in the groove, knocked out loaded is, you're, you're You're a real psycho if you're into those records, which I am.

But Jack White, it was like a similar thing, and I recognized it in the moment. Like, there's a song on Fear of the Dawn. I think it's Fear of the Dawn, where he, it's like a rap song with Q-tip. That I've heard. Yeah. So there's stuff like that. There's like a lot of wacky. You know, he dyed his hair blue for a while.

he considered giving up songwriting to just build furniture for a while he went through like a real kind of like dark net of the soul like who the hell am I

I'm in my 40s now you know what is Jack White what is my place in the world and then in 2024 he puts out this record no name and he figures out like oh I'm Jack White I'm the only guy now who writes riffs

that transcend the culture. And really we're talking about Seven Nation Army, but I mean, that is the biggest riff of the 21st century, like by far. Like, it is the, people sing that riff all over the world

at sporting events. And he's still good at making songs like that. It's like, okay, what people want for me is something that sounds like the White Stripes, but like 15% more Zeppelin-esque. You know, like, let's just take the Tweedness

out of the white stripes, you know, like the white stripes had a twee side. Let's just take that out and just be, you know, we're just, we're just doing Zeppelin. We're just doing Jimmy Page type shit. And I think that's a good lane for him. He's 51 now. He made this record Frozen Charlotte. I think it's a good, fun record, just like no name is. Is it as good as white bloodstells or elephant?

Of course not. but he's the guy kind of similar to the strokes now where they are just famous forever I think as rock stars and as the Rolling Stones of the world I mean

Rolling Stones are probably not going to even tour on this album because Keith Richards has arthritis I mean they're in the mid-80s like they sadly like I love the stones they don't have a whole lot of time left it's going to be the Strokes in Jack White. It's their time now. They're going to be those.

I'm serious. They're going to be those bands where, you know, voodoo lounge comes out. And I love Voodoo Lounge. But, you know, it's not going to take over the world. There's no expectation of it. But it's like, oh, it's an excuse to see this band again. And that's what Jack White and the strokes are. And Jack White is amazing live.

I mean, he did that halftime show at the Detroit Lions game on Thanksgiving last year. He like killed it. You know, and it's like he's just realized like I'm in my 50s. I'd make riffs when no one else makes riffs. And that's a good lane for me. So I feel like he's kind of figured out where maybe Beck is still trying to find his place a little bit. But Jack White has figured it out. Like I'm the riff guy.

I'm going to go on tour. I'm going to make a lot of money. And I'm just going to. And sometimes I'll end up at the Oscars when they need a guitar player to do something. I'll be that guy. you know but he's got his lane and he feels comfortable to me for the first time in a long time yeah i i'll bring up some lore because uh you know my wife had a friend who worked for jack white when she lived in nashville and like when you were saying the bit about like him you know

building furniture or whatever i remember her saying yeah it's like yeah jack's really into space now like he just got like really interested in space right yeah that that really stood out to me but yeah Jack White's doing his thing I think it's cool that he's trying to write riffs I mean because like whether or not rock is back I mean when was the last riff well I mean there hasn't been

I feel like in the indie world anyway we went through a long time where people just weren't writing riffs I mean that just wasn't part of the lexicon like lots of bands that we would love yeah they weren't centering songs around a riff or like where the riff starts at the beginning and then the drums come in.

You know, that classic rock song construction. It really wasn't something that you were hearing a whole lot of. And we're going to say this and we're going to get a bunch of emails or tweets saying, well, what about this band? Well, it's like if you can't think of it off the top of your head that it's not the kind of riff that we're talking about. You know, I know.

It's got to pass the Beavis and Butthead test where you can just like kind of, like just sing it and know exactly the one. Or that it just has that kind of cultural ubiquity to it, that it's one of the great riffs. Clearly there are bands still writing riffs. I'm not saying that no one is writing riffs, but in terms of the smoke on the water, you know, Seven Nation Army, you know, satisfaction, like those kind of guitar riffs. They really are a thing mostly of the past. It's just not how music is really written now. And, you know, I think you can have great music without riffs.

Or great rock music. There's lots of great rock bands that aren't necessarily like riff oriented. I just think that Jack White, you know, he realized, I think at some point that like I can just kind of bang out riffs. And like he doesn't have, they're not like hooky riffs necessarily. Like on this out, they're not the kind of riffs that just stand out in your mind. But there are riffs that sound really good when you're listening to the record. So, and that's more than I can say for like a lot of like. like rock radio gruel that is trying to do what Jack White does, I think, pretty effortlessly.

So it is still a good lane. And honestly, it's not even about him writing new riffs anymore. It's about him standing up for riffs in the culture, signifying that as a thing. And then going out and playing great shows where he just does a bunch of old White Stripe songs that kick ass. That's all he needs to do. He doesn't, you know, like Richie Blackmore only had to write one smoke on the water. It's not like people said to him, Richie, you're 50 years old. write another smoke on the water.

He's like, no, we got enough from you. You did your job. You don't have to do it every two or three years anymore. So I think that's where Jack White is, I would say. And I really wish this was a call-in show because I'm like, hey, let's go to our listeners right now. What's your favorite cage the elephant riff? Oh, my God.

Well, I'll answer that question next week after I go see Cage the Elephant. Let's do a quick fantasy album draft update. You had a couple albums that are already, on the board. Kalia, I guess, is already on the board. That came out last week. Yeah, Kalila's got an 86. About what I expected.

Yeah, she's golden. Yeah, this album's interesting. It's a little more like guitar-oriented, not riffs. It's a little more shoegazy than what she typically does. But, you know, it's in that sort of, you know, kind of, I guess, post-velet rope R&B lane, but like with some warp production. but yeah there's more guitar on it um you know she does interesting things and she's rewarded in kind so it's about an 86 i think that's the floor and then what was the other album you had out

lido pimienta so i haven't even seen any reviews on album of the year yet i don't think this one's going to pop up on metacritic we might have to do one of those things where i get like a substitute uh but you know there's still time but i'm not feeling super confident about this one Yeah, you might have outsmarted yourself with that. It's on anti- Records. It's not like that's too obscure, but... I know, but we are in a time of diminished music websites. You know, I don't know how deep they're going with their reviews.

Hopefully they'll end up reviewing that at some point. Because I don't know what we're going to do. You're going to have to redraft or... That's always a tricky thing. Let's look at the new releases here quick that are out this week. Last week... Was that last week? maybe the week before, like July is kind of a dead zone, I feel like for new releases.

August actually is going to be hopping. We're going to be, we're going to have a ton to talk about that month. But July, you know, this is definitely the dog days of summer, people on vacation, just not wanting to put all that new music. But this week is a little bit more hopping than most. Just looking at some of the headlines here, Gracie Abrams has a new record out today called Daughter from Hell. This is outside of our purview. This is not really indie music at all.

This is big time pop music. I really have no opinion on Gracie Abrams other than songs here and there that have come across like my trance, like on social media or whatever. It just seems like sort of run-of-the-mill post-sailer Swift singer-songwriters. This is like the C or D grade of the Taylor Swift wave. Yeah, this artist is funny because. work is my portal to, you know, the Swifties, the pop girly crowd, you know, that views them as like pop girlies, not in like a critical sort of way. But, you know, they've allowed themselves to admit that in the past four years, you know, Taylor Swift's lost a little bit of that market share, Sabrina

Carpenter, Olivia Rodrigo, that's what our young patients listen to now. To a person, like, Gracie Abrams is like creed to them. Like, they call. dislike her. And I don't think it's like creed in the fact that it's kind of like dumb fun. I think that maybe Gracie Abrams is more like incubus and that, like the, it's a, it's an act that thinks it's way smarter than it really is. Like the music's fine, but what she reminds me of, I don't even know if it's post-Taylor, it's like post-Taylor Swift, but it's also, I don't think Punisher invented this style of lyricism,

but it definitely got a lot bigger after that where you would read like the little singles blur, for this new song and there would be like a lyric where I hate I'm saying this but it's like oh they thought they ate with that one it was like usually some therapeutic term or something like that where it's like talking about like trauma or like knives or blood or something like that and yeah Gracie Abrams like made the whole album out of that like there's so many poll quotes of the lyrics and you're wondering it's like wait the it's sort of like how I used to review the riled chili peppers where it's like you can make fun to Anthony Ketus just by quoting Anthony Keatis lyrics with like no context

whatsoever. But you know, Gracie Abrams, man. You'll love to see someone bootstrap their way to pop stardom. Yeah, I mean, it just seems like the kind of lyrics where they're writing it thinking, oh, people are going to tweet the hell out of this. Yeah.

They're going to quote this lyric. They're going to do a little screen thing. It's going to become a meme. And I don't know. And the album titled, look, we're judging this album purely superficially. So take it with a grain of salt. But the album title to me, it also speaks to this like, I'm going to constantly use high school metaphors to describe my adult life,

which is another thing that's common in this corner of the music world that I find to be really irritating. Bowling for soup wasn't lying, you know, high school never ends. I think that was them, right? No, I'll take your word for that. See, this is another one. You can say whatever you want about. Bowling for Soup. I'd have no idea.

I didn't even know that they wrote that song, 1985, which is the only song I know by them. I didn't know that that was a cover. What? What? No, that's a cover. I did not know that either. Well, okay, apparently I'm the bowling for soup ninja here. I know all the knowledge. The Sensei of Bowling for Soup. Casabian. There's a new Casabian record. Hell yeah. Act 3. Casabian, a

just like a boilerplate British rock band that's been going forever I don't What was that song? Clubfoot? Club foot that's like FIFA soccer soundtrack Like

You would think that Like the new FIFA drop Like you They are so They are so wishing They could play like the World Cup final halftime show But I think it's like Justin Bieber doing that Right

Well that's enough Casabian talk There's a new Rick Ross album Set in Stone Is this out Is this actually coming out today, I feel like these, like, albums by, like, older rappers, they'd never come out on the days that they're supposed to come out. Are you aware of a new Rick Ross album? I'm aware that one exists. You know, I've been listening to Deeper Than Rap, his 2009 record a lot

recently, man, 2009 to 2012, Rick Ross was so good, but I couldn't. I didn't listen to the new future album that just came out. I know a future album came out, but I decided to, listen to Pluto instead. And I imagine the same will be with Rick Ross where I will listen to the first 40 minutes of, oh my God, what was that mixtape that came out in 2012? It's not God forgives, I don't. Oh my, rich forever. Yeah, first 40 minutes of rich forever is like better than Elmatic, but you didn't hear that for me. Actually, you did. I just said it. Yeah, there's definitely, you know, again, a music critics of our generation who are maybe also interested in hip hop. I'm sorry, interested in indie rock but also interested in hip hop i feel like rick ross looms large with writers

of our generation that was so much fun to like rehabilitate rick ross from nine from 2009 to 2012 we had so much fun doing that because like i wrote the teflon don review we were so proud of ourselves for getting rick ross in a point oh so like who was like the the rap yon winner like Like who was like the rapion winner that people were trying to silence that voice in their heads by like writing a positive review of Teflon Don. I will never forget this. This is a real story. I don't know if that person exists, but I remember when we reviewed Rick Ross,

Teflon Don, it got like a higher score than like an LP album that just came out. And I remember like me and a couple other pitchfork writers like, hell yeah man we did it I don't know if there's I don't know if there's like a specific person but you know like there was all I don't

I can't name the name because it definitely wasn't the source I mean like they were giving like juvenile and Alcast like five Mike's reviews I don't know some guy that was like a backpack rap guy or a guy that just hated anything mainstream rap like a it was like a total

you know straw man you know that would be the rapion winner I don't think it was, I think it was just this pervasive thing where it wasn't even critics. It was just like the guy you knew in the dorm. Right. Who, yeah, who like, and I remember this because like these people existed in 1998. Like you couldn't throw on juvenile. Right.

You couldn't throw like, like, yo man, man, we got to listen to this Nas album. But like Jurassic Five. Yeah, Jurassic Five. Let's put on Jurassic Five. Yeah, right. All the stuff that played in every single like college quad. It's like, hey, look. Look at us. We got Black IPs, pre-Fergy. I did see them open for Wyclef Jean in 1999, by the way.

What, Black IPs? Yeah, they were mostly just break dancing. It was pretty cool. Steve Lacey has a new record out today called Oh Yeah. I think this is his first record since that whole like bad habit blow up in the early 2020s. It's just a huge song. Of course he comes from like, so like is he an odd future or was he like adjacent to that? Yeah, he was in the internet. Oh, right, right. Yeah, so I think it's like two degrees of separation from odd future. Okay. So you're not wrong about that.

Okay, so I knew he had some tangential relationship to that. So that record is out today. I have not heard that record. The Menzinger's have a new record out. Everything I ever saw. I've heard the singles from this album. I thought they were pretty good. I think the Menzinger's, I've enjoyed their work over time.

I don't know if they're reinventing the wheel with this record. I think if you're a fan of the men singers, this is going to be more menzingers for you. I don't know if you go deep on them or not. I've reviewed two menzinger's albums at Pitchfork. It's one of those things where it's like, oh, I did that. Yeah, they were really fun albums to review because, you know, jokes about the men zingers are called men zingers.

They're just funny because, like, they're the sort of band that even the people who like menzingers know that they kind of write the same song about just like, I can't believe them. like 42 and getting hung over and like pining after the waitress at the all night diner. Right. It's like yeah, like kind of like first person story songs set to Heartland Rock Leaning Pop Punk, essentially. And there's that album The Impossible Pass. That is, I think, their big record. It is, yeah.

There's another record called Rented World that I remember enjoying. I've always liked their albums. I feel like the way that we're talking about them is maybe taking them. for granted a little bit because they are in that lane of just consistent rock bands that maybe haven't put out like the breakout masterpiece but they also haven't put out total duds they're just tell you what if we're talking about like chorus dot fm those people like on the impossible pass is like that masterpiece it is yeah it is along the lines of like you know that's him or let it be or like that's for them you know that's true

That's true. But, you know, in a broader sense. Yes. They don't have that. They don't have, like, the, you know, Jeff Rosenstock worry in their catalog. They haven't made that record. Or, you know, other bands of that,

they haven't made, like, the pup, the dream is over. They haven't made their version of that. But so a good band. And that's a new record out today. There's a new Yard Act album out today, UK. Are they post-punk? Oh, yeah. They're another band we'll call Post Punk from the UK.

Their new record's called You're Gonna Need a Little Music. Do you go deep on yard act at all, Ian? I get them confused with Squid, I guess. Right. I guess. They're in the Squid Zone. They're not in the dry cleaning tier. No.

They're in like the next tier. Yeah, I've tried. It's fine. You know, don't really feel any sort of way about them. This is something you have an opinion about. This is a new tricky album. different when it's silent. I know you have a tricky phase in your past.

Oh, yeah, Max and Quay, hell yeah, the first massive attack record. And there was one album when I was working at the college radio station. He had Ed Colalcich on a track. Wow. I can't remember the name of that one. But yeah, I think tricky. Like a trip-hop Dolphins Cry type remix? I should be so lucky.

Nah, this was like 2002. I would love to have just been there when, those two meet for the first time. Oh man. The vibes. The vibes would have been off the charts. Yeah, but I think this just goes to show like if you listen to the first tricky album, like you could not imagine

a cooler album in 1995. Oh yeah. And yeah, but time comes for like more likely than not you're going to end up like tricky as opposed to like nine inch nails or David Bowie or something like that. Like time comes for everybody.

Like there is a possibility that FKA Twigs might eventually become true. I doubt it, but you know, you've got to know it happens. Maybe this is his morning phase. You never know. Mid-90s coming back, baby. We've now reached the part of episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something we're into this week.

Ian, went to go first? Yeah, so I spoiled this one by doing something rare by, like, praising a new album on Twitter. This came out last week. I didn't get to listen to it until a few days later. band called Snag. They are from Milwaukee. They've been on my radar for a few years.

They signed to Death Wish Inc. For their new record, which is called All the Cages Holding Us will one day turn to dust. And the first couple songs, very solid Death Wish, Inc, hardcore Screamo hybrid. And then there's a song called Juneberry that has gang vocals and a pedal steel and horns. And oh man, it's like 2013 emo revival all over again. been dying to get this sort of sound. And they do it a couple more songs as well. So it's kind of half Death Wish, 2026, half top shelf 2013.

And it just reminds me of the days where you can hear Code Orange and the World is a beautiful place. Tigers John's Self-Defense family on the same split. Good record. Please bring back 2011 to 2013 emo revival sounds. Get artsy with it. Listen to the microphones. Glow Part 2.

I like what bands are doing with like the late 90s sound, not so much with the quote unquote Midwest Nemo, but there is, it's been 15 years. You can sound like whenever, if ever again. I think this band does it in a good amount. So I want to talk about a band from New Orleans, a garage rock duo called Twisted Teens. Now this is a band that they actually put out a record earlier in 2026 back in,

I think it was February, called Blame the Clown. And I remember when that album came out, got good reviews, and I listened to the single from that record, and it didn't really land with me, and they seemed like a band that was more about sort of the spirit of garage rock being really sort of very unbunctious and loud, but I didn't really feel like they had the tunes that landed with me. Well, that record kind of stayed in my mind after listening to it, and it slowly grew on me over time, and then Twisted Teens put out a new record, their second album of 2026, just, this month, that is called Florida Water Blues, and that's a record that has just kind of

leapt on me immediately. The other album is more of a slow burn, but this is a record that I like quite a bit, and I would say that the first song on this record really kind of grabbed me by the jugular. It's called Why Did You Miss It? And it's this really fascinating amalgam of styles, where it starts off, kind of reminds me of like Teenage Riot. There's like a long instrumental passage, but it's like Teenage Riot as played by like Buck Owens and the Buccaroos. You know, there's like a country element to it along with the punk rock stuff. And then it goes into this like Nirvana ripoff for about 15 seconds. It sounds like a song from Bleach.

And then after that, it's like the replacements if they had somehow worked with the producer that they worked on, pleased to meet me, Jim Dickinson, if they had worked with him in 1981 rather than 1987. that kind of combination of like southern music and country music and soul with punk rock that the replacements eventually landed on later. That's what twisted teens are working with on both of these records. And for a band that maybe didn't totally land with me right away in 2026, they've kind of quickly become a band that I've really come to like this year. And I think this album in particular, Florida Water Blues, just shows that the songwriting in this band, which was the thing that I initially thought was maybe a little, little lacking is really coming along along with just like the great kind of spirit and verve of the music. So if any of the bands I just referenced are your cup of tea, I would also maybe

also describe them as like a soul food Titus andronicus, if that makes sense. Definitely check out this band. They're called Twisted Teens. The record is called Florida Water Blues. I'm also going to throw in the men when they started doing. Oh, right. Yeah, that one song on Open Your Heart, that was kind of country and New Moon after that. Yeah, I wasn't really into the first album. But yeah, this one I actually listened to this week. It sounded pretty good. I'm like, I bet Steve likes this.

This is like right up here, Alley. Yeah, and I think also hearing this in the summertime made a difference with me versus in the middle of winter. This is great summertime music. Heavy pontoon styles, yeah. Absolutely. So Twisotene's really good band. And I'm going to check out the band you talked about Snag.

love bands from Milwaukee and I'm going to be in Milwaukee in a few days so like to support the Upper Midwest rock bands that about does it for this episode of Indycasts. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week.