Indiecast - Band Of Horses, Plus: Mitski, Charli XCX, And Bandcamp Sells Out

Episode Date: March 4, 2022

What do Band Of Horses have in common with The Strokes and Interpol? Their first album was mostly considered to be an instant classic, though their second album was arguably better. Band Of Horses may have dominated much of indie music discourse in the mid-aughts, but they're now making a triumphant return with their first album in six years, Things Are Great. Hosts Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen share their thoughts about the band's comeback (37:49) on this week's Indiecast episode.Along with reviewing new music, Steven and Ian talk about this biggest news in music this week: Bandcamp was purchased by Epic Games, a tech game company which owns popular video games like Fortnite (:27). Twitter, of course, lit up with jokes about the acquisition. Others wondered if it will fundamentally change how Bandcamp compensates artists, which they do more than many other music services. On top of the Bandcamp news, this week saw some artists beefing with their stans. Mitski denounced concertgoers who film her entire performance (15:55) while Charli XCX came at a fan who accused her of going through a "midlife crisis" (10:01).In this week’s Recommendation Corner (55:05), Ian gives a shout out to Boston hardcore punk band Vein.fm, whose new album This World Is Going To Ruin You drops this week. Meanwhile, Steven reminds Indiecast listeners that Sonic Youth's In/Out/In compilation comes out in just two weeks, featuring a mix of low-key and noisy tracks.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 79 on Spotify below, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts here. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to IndyCast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we review the new album by Band of Horses. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He was just purchased by a video game company. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? I cannot believe you're just putting my business out there. Like, I've not actually been bought yet. I'm trying to, like, foster a bidding war. Right now, like my main competitors are the guy who created leisure suit Larry and made a drug war for the TI 83. I mean, if there's, look, I just want to be upfront with the- The people are upset, Ian, because you are abandoning your indie roots. No, we're not.

Your altruistic support of the DIY scene has been compromised by this lapse. I know you're rolling in the money. Now, you're going to, you know, there's going to be ads for Fortnite just popping on. on this show. We are all going to do the floss dance with Spider-Man. Oh, man. So, okay, so we should say what we're referring to is Bandcamp, the beloved platform for indie artists that they can sell their music directly to fans, artists make more money

per record on BandCamp than they do really on any other streaming platform. They were bought this week by Epic Games, which is the company that makes Fortnite in a statement. They said that BandCamp will play an important role in Epic's vision to build out a creator marketplace ecosystem for content, technology, games, art, music, and more. So music was listed fifth on that list after content and technology. But they weren't lumped, music wasn't lumped into and more. So I guess that's the, that's the glasses half full looking at it.

Shout to music. It doesn't get like, you know, whatever and more signifies like music. No, that's totally separate. So, I mean, look. But not headed content. Yes. Which, by the way, I mean, I guess anything could be content. True.

The content is first on the list. Content number one, technology number two. Those are the things that are dominant in the creator marketplace ecosystem. What the fuck is a creator marketplace ecosystem? Look, man. I mean, the, the, one thing that stands out to me about this compared to the other situations where you see a idealistic kind of indie rooted creator marketplace, you know, like whether we're talking about

like the AV club or whatever, getting swallowed up by a big company. At the very least, epic games like makes something. You know, it's not like geo media, which just, you know, buys up publications and like strips them down to the studs and then sells it out like through hedge funds. I don't know. Maybe there is something that good that will come of this. Maybe, like, I don't know, the writers at Pan Camp might get paid better or something. Right. Yeah.

Because there was a lot of hyperventilating on social media this week about this. I saw people saying, you better download your files now, you know, because who knows what's going to happen. I don't think that they're going to, I mean, I don't think they bought the site so they could zomify it. No. I think it's still going to be, I mean, there may be a change in terms of how it interfaces with the audience. I mean, it's certainly not going to have the same image that it had before. And you and I have talked about this. We're both fans of Bandcamp.

Yeah. But there is this perception of that company that they are almost like the Red Cross or they're like Goodwill Industries, that they're this altruistic organization and not a company. Yeah. And they're a company. They're a tech platform. Exactly. And they do a lot of good things. Again, I think in terms of streaming platforms, it is the best for artists without question.

But it also has a relatively small footprint. And maybe this will expand their footprint, like if you want to look at it from an optimistic point of view. Yeah, I mean, I think that's really all we can do. Because you'll hear bands talk about, like, how, you know, they make more money per sale off bank camp. in reality it takes a lot more to make, you know, like money from band camp sales than it does for to say, like, sell a hoodie at the show, you know? Yeah, I just don't know, like, I don't know, like, what chunk of money in a band's income comes from band camp.

But, like, let's also point out the fact that, like, Fortnite, even before this, has a pretty good, you know, it has a pretty big footprint in music industry. I think that during the early pandemic, you would see festivals hosted in Fortnite and Minecraft. I think certain artists have taken to premiering music, I think, on Fortnite or Twitch. I don't know. I think that there is a lot of ground to explore and the confluence between video games and music. I don't know.

Maybe we're just going to get like a better Tony Hawk soundtrack out of this. Like maybe Fortnite is going to be like the new Tony Hawk soundtrack where like all these indie bands. or like when I think of band camp I think of like ambient music or like you know like international music maybe there's going to be like a Tony Hawk for that I don't know yeah I mean it just shows again like how small music is in the whole world entertainment business it's always amazing to be reminded of that because you know we're both music fans we host this music podcast we're very fixated on this world ever played fortnight never played fortnight but I'm apparently in the minority of human beings.

I mean, video games, it just dwarfs the music business. I mean, it's just huge. There's no record label that's going to be buying a video game company. At some point, maybe video game companies will be buying every record label under the sun. Someone online made a point that I thought was interesting. And this was a person that was like a little bit critical of band camp. Just talking about how we're at a point now on the internet where it's, seems like every facet of the music business now is professional.

Yeah. You know, if you look back 15 years ago during the height of blogs, for instance, you know, it was much more common for just a regular person, you know, an amateur, like down a professional music journalist or something to have a blog that would have a pretty big reach and they could have influence that way. And Bandcamp, the emergence of that platform, it underscored the idea that even like an indie spaces or DIY spaces that that space was dominated by this tech platform that again I think had the facade of being this mom and pop altruistic company but all along they were a tech platform and this

reminds us of that but anyway the person online was lamenting the idea that there just isn't a space it seems like that's significant anymore that isn't just tied up in big money yeah you know You can't just be a regular person now and sell music or have a blog or whatever it is and make an impact. And I thought that was a pretty good point. I mean, that does seem to be the case. I think it took to like, I don't know, the mid-2000s, like 2004-5, for like pitchfork writers to start getting paid. It's been a very small window of time for most music writing to be monetized. And in some ways it's like, hey, cool, there's more ways to make money.

I remember back in 2003 and for that it was basically impossible to get paid unless you wrote for an alt-weekly or like a bigger magazine and hey, cool people are now getting paid but it does speak to, I don't know, maybe like a greater cynicism of it all where people are kind of collaborating in a weird sort of way with the music industry

like, you know, how most music writers are seen as being like PR, like basically like B-Team PR or music being seen as like a kind of lost leader for a greater musical success. I mean, look, the one thing we can always promise to our IndyCats listeners is that, like, we have no qualms about selling out if anyone's buying. Like, we are not claiming any sort of moral superiority. You know, we are still very open if the Innings Festival wants to sponsor us. Like, we're very open to corporate synergy.

Absolutely. Epic Games. uh, are, uh, DM us anytime you want. We are open to negotiation. Uh, monster energy drink. If you want to get into the music, uh, industry here, uh, buy us up. Uh, we will chill for anything on this show. Yes.

Uh, it is, we have no qualms. We are not making judgments on anybody, uh, for, uh, getting the bag. Wow, that's a, that's a, that's a really contemporary form of lingo you just dropped right there. Very out of character. If I'm going to be honest, it's because, I've heard Colin Cowherd say it on this podcast. So I learned it from Colin Cowherd. That's, you know, I don't want to be fronting like I am actually in any way cool.

Steve has been watching Euphoria trying to get, trying to get his slang up. Everything I talk about on the show comes from me listening to sports podcasts during my daily walk. That's where we, that's where Indycast keeps its cutting edge. Absolutely. We got to talk about this Charlie X-E-X story. We absolutely do. Her arguing with her fans about whether her new music sucks. Is that the crux of the story here?

She's been warring with fans and social media because the stands aren't liking her new singles. And she's calling them out. I got to read this tweet or these excerpts from her tweets. Were these deleted? Do you know? I don't know if these are still up. I think they're still up because I saw them on a stereo gum. Okay. I got to give Carl, if they're still up, I got to give her credit. Yeah, absolutely. She engages with people.

Yes, she does. She engaged with me briefly a few years ago because I did this thread where I took screenshots of headlines from the past 10 years of music websites calling her the future of music. Oh, yeah. The future of pop music. And that's a narrative for her. that begins in like 2011. And every single year, I could find a headline someone calling her the future of pop music. And it's like, at what point does the future arrive? Because she's been the future of pop music since 2011.

I don't know. That just became like a thing for her. That people, like writers like to say that about her. Yeah, but the future of pop music kind of is pop stars arguing directly with their stand base. So it's been all leading up to this. This is her realizing her destiny. as the future of pop music. So I'm just going to preface this.

These are her words, not mine. She says, and this is reference, is there, what was the name of her single? It's called baby. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, it's kind of like this new album is to a degree that maybe her previous ones aren't like maybe more of like a legitimate pop move as opposed to like maybe like pop adjacent or something like that.

Like people see this as like the general vibe I'm getting from people who like follow Charlie. Charlie XX to a high degree is that like this sound, like the single sound like signed like something to do a leaf have passed on. But, um, right. Yeah, it's just the, the hype isn't there. Like there seems to be this festering ambient sense of disappointment around it. So why don't you go ahead and let us know how Charlie XX responded? Okay.

So yeah, so people are slagging her for this song. I think it's called Baby. Yeah. And apparently she dances in the video and people were. criticizing her dance moves suggesting that this was a label edict that she danced in her videos that didn't seem

organic to her, I guess. And apparently one of her stands called her mother. Yeah. And that set her off. She says, if you want to throw her a run midlife crisis, fucking throw it at me. I'm getting older. I'm getting hotter.

My tits are stunning. Once again, this is her words. This is her words. I'm quoting her act. I'm in great shape. I'm dancing. I'm progressing and I'm living my best life. And that the T. The typo really fucking makes this statement. She's saying that's the T, I think. Yes. We have to get like a parenthetical S-I-C in there, you know. Right, right. For those who are, I don't know, maybe if there's like a transcription of this.

So then she says, again, not bothered that some people will always have their preferred eras, et cetera. That's why it's fun being an angel. There's so much variety. But if you don't think baby is a bop, then ellipsies, IDK, that's just very suspicious to me. No, that's the suspicious to me. That's important. That's V suspicious to me. That's right. I am assuming it means very suspicious.

Yes, it does. So she's suspicious of people that don't like her song. Yeah. I don't know what the suspicion is there. Like that you have bad taste or that you're lying or that you're just a hater. Yeah. This is not a good place to be in, though, when you're arguing with your fans about whether your new single's good or not, you don't want to be in that position.

No, and, you know, I think there's like a post, there's like an epilogue to this story where that recently she dropped out of an NFT festival because of like fan backlash. I mean, got, like, she had, like, that is the real tragedy. The NFT festival, they, this was going to be in a story. event, it was going to be the Woodstock of NFT festivals. Like, Charlie, do the festival. Like, just, if you're going to, like, really hold your ground, like, what, I don't know.

I think, I think it's indicative of, like, quite pernicious, or hilarious, depending of how you look at it, a trend and pop music where it's the sense that, like, you kind of have to cater to your fans or that, like, you owe your fans an explanation. I've heard this discussed recently with like TV, like how you couldn't have a show like lost anymore where like you can leave your fans confused. Like fans demand answers immediately. And, um, I don't know. Like I, this is not like a daddy's home or like a reflector style like album rollout. But what I know this album rollout for right now is that she releases a single like maybe a small percentage of the fan base is loudly against it and then Charlie XXX reacts and the vibes are not immaculate right now but I don't know

maybe maybe this is going to be the album that I'm really into by Charlie X X X X I'm I almost feel like we have to review this album when it when it comes up I've written about Charlie X X before and I generally like her music again I think the narrative around her I just think it's funny that she's been called the future of pop music in every article for the past 10 years but here we are yeah it was all leading up to this um I almost don't want to bring this story up because I think it's a totally manufactured story.

This is what Indycast is all about. I guess so. I mean, the Mitzki thing, was this last week? I mean, this thing is going on forever. It's like one of those stories that drops on like a Sunday or something like that,

and you just kind of hope, I really hope this has enough legs for us to talk about it on Thursday. People just kept, so Mitzki last week, or maybe over the weekend. She did this Twitter thread. I think it was Instagram. That's why, like, I don't...

I thought I saw it on Twitter. Oh, you probably know better than I do. I thought I saw it on Twitter, but it could have been on Instagram. I think it was deleted. No, maybe that's why. Because it kicked up such a fuss. But the gist of her thread was, she was saying, I don't really appreciate it when people film me at my shows or, you know, take a lot of

photos because I feel like it takes them out of the experience of, seeing me live. Okay. And the response to that, at least what I saw, I didn't see anyone chastising her for saying this. Certainly not to the degree that people chastise Jack White for doing essentially the same thing. Right. You know, people like, you know, nailed him to the cross for wanting, you know, because he wanted to take people's phones away on his upcoming tour. Mitzki, the reaction I saw was basically people saying, you know, good for you.

You know, we're with you. And then there were a lot of people saying the people reacting negatively to this or who are angry about it, this is proof that we look at pop stars as commodities and we don't respect them enough. And it just made me think, again, we've referred to this so many times on this show, but the classic Kill a Cow. Yes. Twitter user, who's the listener of our show. Who, by the way, created an indie cast bingo that we really appreciate here.

Oh, yeah, he nailed us. Although he didn't put on there, because he basically put on all of the cliches of our show on this bingo card, he didn't put Ian, How Are You on there? I think that's the big one thing he missed. Anyway, Kill a Cow.

He has this classic tweet where, and I forget the exact wording, but it's something like... I was told Steph Curry can't shoot. Right. This idea of inventing someone to be mad at. Which is what happens all the time on Twitter. Maybe there were like two or three bots.

Yeah. you know, clap back at Mitzki for this. But it just created this totally fake story that people were mad at Mitzki about. I mean, am I wrong? I mean, I just feel like if there was a negative reaction, it was far outweighed by people supporting her. Yeah, this is like one of those stories where if I happen to have a fairly busy day at my real life job, I'll miss it completely because there's no actual news story anchoring it

or no actual backlash aside for maybe a couple of Twitter eggs. Like you just see like one tweet talking about it. It's got like 35,000 likes. And I'm like, what is anyone even talking about? Because I don't follow Mitzki on Instagram, nor do I follow her on Twitter. And the interesting thing is that I'm pretty sure it says on her Twitter that her management runs it. Either way, it's the old conversation about like, oh, does having a phone out like take you out of the experience? I don't know, maybe it does.

But, you know, for me, it's like I went to see Foxing and Manchester Orchestra this past Sunday. And, you know, having a phone out was like a very important part of it. Like, I like to film, you know, the big parts of the Foxing songs I know and love, post them. And it's a way of like kind of boosting a band, particularly if they're, you know, about a year removed away from putting out an album. I think bands appreciate that.

They tend to retweet that stuff. Yeah, I interviewed Dave Hartley, the bass player from The War on Drugs, when I wrote my, I wrote a profile of the War on Drugs recently about their current tour, and he was talking about, like, when the band plays, I don't live here anymore, the title track of their most recent album. He says a lot of phones come out when we play that song, and he meant that as a positive thing. Like, he meant that as, like, a song that people are excited about.

And it's maybe the new version of, like, putting a lighter in the air. You see the phones go up and then you know, oh, this is the anthem. People are excited about it. I mean, this is a, again, we've talked about this before, like, when Jack White had his whole thing about taking people's phones away. And again, I think it's hilarious that Jack White gets, like, shit on when he takes this position and Midski, for the most part, gets supported. Because it just plays into how people already feel about these artists. But, yeah, I'm not bothered personally when people are on their phones. I mean, what do I care if they're being taken out of the experience?

I mean, that's, I'm worried about myself. I'm not thinking about somebody else. As long as they're not holding the phone in front of my face and blocking my view. Well, talking is way worse than phones, of course. Or whistling or, like, you know, screaming shit at the stage. But, yeah, as long as you're not, like, raising the phone above your head and blocking my view, I don't care. And I'll say, you know, along the lines of what you're saying, you know, I've gone on YouTube and I've watched like pretty good to even great videos shot on phones.

Yeah. And I was appreciative of it. It was like, oh, this is cool. Like, I like being able to see these kind of pirated videos online. I think that's kind of a cool document. And now, you know, phones with good cameras have been around long enough that you can see videos from, you know, five, six, seven, eight years ago. Right. Now.

And it's kind of a cool record. of, you know, bands playing live. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't personally get worked up about this. I think it's kind of an overblown thing. Yeah, I'm glad other people get worked up about it because this makes it a lot easier for us on the podcast. Yeah, that's true.

But, yeah, again, no one's mad at Mitzky, okay? Can we just, or no one significant. Is it mad at Mitzky about this, okay? No one, so. I oftentimes think stuff like this is a means of, like, laundering, you know, less acceptable ideas. Like, you know, maybe Laurel Hell isn't that good. And you just kind of launder it through, oh, I'm mad at her about phones. Like, you would see this a lot with, you know, band camp, for example. Or I remember, like, Chance the rapper and Arcade Fire had, like,

you know, people were like kind of mad about the record. But like, it was not particularly cool to voice that. But once they did anything else non-musical that you can make fun of, you go in there. Yeah, maybe so. But again, I really, look, maybe I'm wrong. Writers, you know, listeners write in,

tell me I'm wrong, but my sense is that this is a made-up story, that people were not upset at her about this, but I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. Certainly someone was mad at her about it, but I don't think it was significant.

But I don't know. Let's get to our mailbag second. Thank you all for writing into our show. We get lots of letters every week, and it's always great to hear from. Our listeners, you know, We look at every single one. We can't read them all, unfortunately.

But we've been doing a few more emails lately. We've been doing two instead of one, which has been cool. But yeah, if you want to hit us up, hit us up at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. Do you want to read this first question? Yes, I do. So this comes to us from Ashley in Baltimore. Shout to Baltimore. And first off, hi, Stephen Ian, love the pod.

Okay, next mailbag question. Okay, no, fine. Ashley from Baltimore writes, I was hoping I could ask for your take on music videos. I grew up in the 90s and while the forms peak cultural relevance was probably already in decline, I still got to experience the TRL era. That's Total Request Live for our like under 18 demographic listening right now. It was a show there they showed Backstreet Boys and Corn videos. I understand the continued existence of music videos as a promotional tool for the big pop acts,

particularly those who are canny enough to turn their release into an event, such as Lil Nas X, Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga, etc. Certainly, the advent of YouTube helped to ensure they stuck around after MTV moved away from music folks programming. But I'm less certain of the utility of music videos for indie bands. To use some of my hometown acts as an example, I'm not sure why future islands, turnstile, or Beach House need to put out music videos to accompany their singles. The labels push for it is the YouTube algorithm. I feel like I know a decent number of indie heads, both online and real life, and I can't say I hear much conversation about, or interest in music videos.

With a few exceptions, a lot of the indie music videos, I do happen to watch them either low effort, low budget, or both, which leads me to think that most bands aren't invested in them as primary modes of artistic expressions. So I guess my question is, who is the indie music video for? Thanks, Ashley in Baltimore. That's a really good question, Ashley.

I've often wondered this myself, because if you think about the music videos that have made a significant cultural impact in the past, say, five years or so. I mean, there's, this is America. Yeah. Childish Gambino, which was such a good video that I think it caused people to overrate the song.

I think the song is just okay, but the video is pretty striking visually. And then I guess you have WAP would be another one. And Little Nazax, too. Right. That's true, Little Nasaks. But like, in terms of an indie act, I mean, is there an equivalent to something like OK Go? You remember OK Go? Of course I remember OK Go.

What the fuck? Remembering some guys' lifestyle? I remember Okago before they did those videos. This is also rhetorically asking the audience this as well. They remember Okago, a band from Chicago. They built their career essentially on making viral music videos or what was viral back in like the what late 90s, early 2000. I guess it would have been mid-2000s. Right.

It would have been after YouTube was introduced. Yes. And I don't really think there is. I don't think there's a band that. has broken out because they had a video that reached people outside of their fan base. Yeah. And, you know, like, I think that there is a utility for indie bands because, like, look, as far as, like, what it does monetarily, I think YouTube actually pays better per stream

than most streaming services. So I don't know if there's, like, a sideways means of, like, generating revenue that way. But, you know, like, you, it's funny. you mentioned turn style and um i think about turnstile as the sort of band that really does benefit from a video if it's like a high energy rock band that you can just do like put together a well done live performance video i think that can you know generate interest in a way that like just the song itself doesn't you know i think particularly like dogleg when they released fox when they shot that at bled fest that i think got people to like really be more interest

vested in them than the song itself would have. I think the armed, you know, all futures, great song when I heard it, but then you see the visual angles like, oh my God, these guys look like American gladiators. It deepens the experience to this as well. I think Pupp is maybe, they're not a band that's broken through specifically because of their videos, but all their videos are awesome. And I think that that generates a goodwill for them that they may not have been able to generate just based on the singles alone. So there is a utility for them. Also, I think bands think

they're fun for the most part. Otherwise, I don't think they would do them. Yeah, two things I would add to all the points you just made. Number one, when you put out a music video, music websites will write about it. Yes. So there is that promotional thing. I think more so than if it's just a single, if there's a video, it's more likely that it's going to get some play. So there is some promotional benefit from that. The second point, you know, you talked about how YouTube pays better per stream than a lot of other streaming platforms. I don't know if this is for sure true, but it seems true.

I mean, YouTube is probably the biggest music streaming platform of all. Like, it certainly is about as big as Spotify. I mean, I feel like it's probably bigger than Spotify. I don't know if this has been measured out, but a lot of people listen to music on YouTube. you know, it's a free service. There's things on YouTube that you can't get other places because they're not, either it's like a bootleg recording or it's a recording that's come out of print or something. So I think there is a benefit knowing that so many people listen to music on this platform

that if you have a video that is fun to look at, it just makes it a little bit more likely that people are going to check out your video more. So that I think would be the utility. I mean, I think Ashley is right in the sense that I don't think most of the time there's like a huge impact because again, I don't think that there's been a band that broke out because they had a great video. If there is, I can't think of one right now. But it can help again on a platform where a lot of people listen to music. Maybe it gets a few more thousand people in the door, which can make a difference. sometimes.

Let's get to our next question. This comes from Mitch in Denver. Oh, that's, yeah, Mitch from Denver. Mitch from Denver. How do you guys feel about allmusic.com? Do you enjoy the writing? Do more of your buddies contemporaries, write for pitchfork stereo gum, uprocks? Let me know what you think because I think they are doing great reviews weekly over there,

indie and otherwise. What do you think of allmusic.com, Ian? Okay, so I got to preface this. Again, I know that we have this huge, you know, Gen Z, Gen Alpha demographic who might not have lived during a time where there just wasn't a whole lot of internet to go around. But for me, when I think about like in 2000 to 2002, when I had a lot of jobs in like call centers or just like mindless internships, like I worked for music today where I'd like fill out like tour route.

things for Bob Weir's solo act or something like that. Rat Dog? Yeah, I think so. It would have been rat dog. Yeah, okay. I'm going to trust you on this one. But back then, you know, when I had a lot of time in front of a computer and not a lot of internet, all music guide was a godsend. Because at the time, you know, I was still on the verge of going through a lot of, like,

musical discovery phases, like going through a Springsteen phase, going to discover, you know, like Pink Floyd. And, you know, at the, you know, in 2000, like, pitchfork was more of like the kind of Jack Black from high fidelity, like the record store geek that like at both times you admired, but were a little bit scared of. AllMusic guy was like kind of the kindly older brother or like the English teacher who really wants to put you on to the clash. And you could look at their discography and see like which ones were the five stars, which

ones for four and a half like which one like where do i fucking begin with neil young you know before my co-host made the you know the the the ranking of all 55 neil young studio albums all music was what we had to do and you know i i think it's a i think it's very helpful as a tool as far as contemporary goes um i'm not quite sure about its utility there because it's so overwhelmingly positive that the negative reviews, the only ones that stand out. Like, there are two, I think of off the top. They really did not like Boni Vare's 2011 album, and they had this weird sort of antagonistic view on Los Campesinos.

So, yeah. I think Friday's, too, has been not well reviewed. Well, look, they're the, I remember that one, because I think they're the only people who dislike I'm wide awake, it's morning as much as I do. So, I think that's, I'm looking at it. I think it's Steve Thomas. And you're both. And you're both super insane for that take.

I just want to say you're both crazy for not loving that album. But yeah. Otherwise, you know, the one thing that sticks, you know, like sticks in my craw, is that like what people say, you know, if we're really going to reach out to the youth, is that I actually bought this up on Twitter to Steve and Thomas Erleline once that it just seems like their coverage of emo bands is like,

it's like poor to non-examine. They'll maybe have like a two-line bio and like they'll not review a single they won't review a single like say Foxing record or the world is a beautiful place like none of those have any sort of writing about it. And what he said was that well, you know, we focused mostly on the bios. Like we just don't have enough manpower to really write about that sort of stuff. So I don't know. I mean, even to this day I still think it's a useful tool, especially if I have to like kind of fake my way writing about a band. I took a... I'm reviewing a band

it's like 10th album just for kicks and like I got to kind of fake my way through knowing what the fuck their first nine sounded like. Yeah, I think it's a great reference. I mean, it's been around forever. To answer Mitch's question,

I really like AllMusic.com and for many of the reasons that Ian just said, I mean, it was the original resource for, you know, the catalog style of music writing. Like if you wanted to read reviews of every album

and artist discography that that's where you would go. And it's really like, it's still that. I mean, there's really no other site that does what they do. I don't really read them for indie music or contemporary pop or anything like that. Like what I tend to get the most out of with all music is like that's where I find out that like there's a new Jackson Brown album or something. You know what I mean? Like like legacy acts that don't get covered by like the big music sites.

Like all music, they write about everything. So sometimes it'll be. be like, oh, there's a Tony Joe White retrospective that's being released. I wouldn't know about that if it wasn't for AllMusic. So I appreciate it for that. I have to tell a quick story. I don't know if you know this, but I interviewed for a job at AllMusic.com. Yeah, I did not notice. Yeah, so I was working at my hometown newspaper at the time. I was waiting for my big chance to break into the world of online music journalism and failing left and right. I get an interview with AllMusic.com, which was based in Ann Arbor, Michigan at that time.

I think they're in Austin. Fred Thomas writes a bunch for them, like one of my favorite artists, and he's an in Arbor guy. He's in Arbor. Yeah, so I don't know if they're still based there. I know, I think Stephen Thomas Erlewein is in Austin, Texas. Oh. So maybe the company is there, too.

But I drove six hours or so to Ann Arbor. I had an interview with Stephen Thomas Erlewine, who's a very nice guy. We chatted. and then he led me to a cubicle with a stack of CDs. And for a tryout for the site, I basically had to listen to these albums. I think it was about six albums and write reviews over the course of like two or three hours.

And the way I remember it was that the expectation for a staff writer there was that you were going to write about five reviews a day at all music. And I don't know if that's still true, but it was something like that. And I remember one album I had to write about was a cotton was a cotton mouth king's album You remember cotton mouth king's? Of course I remember I live in San Diego man like that music still moves units out here This is that's a serious remember some guys a moment So I had to write about a cotton mouth king's album and I'd never heard cotton mouth kings before this day

So I just had to bluff my way through this review and Anyway I ended up not taking the job for a couple reasons, but one of them was that it just seemed like a sweatshop working there. And I felt like I'm going to hate music writing and music after working here for six months. Because, you know, I would have been the low person on the totem pole. They weren't giving me the fillet of new releases. I was getting the Cotton Mouth Kings records and what other garbage they were throwing at me. I'd much rather write about a Cotton Mouth King's album than like, you know, with all due respect,

like the 18th Jackson Brown album, you know? Yeah, but would you want to write about that every single day in addition to like other... I prefer my... Five other Cotton Mouth Kings equivalent albums. I think that would get a little tiring after a while. I prefer my disillusionment with music and music writing to have taken place over a much longer period of time than that condensed six months. I'm so burnt the fuck out that I'm just going to read books and play video games for the rest of my life's thing.

Yeah, I don't know. I would not be here today. Co-hosting an indie rock podcast, I think, if I had taken that job. I think it would have burned me out pretty quickly. So I'm glad it didn't work out for me in that instance. Let's get to the meet of our episode final. We definitely have been called out for this before. That's okay.

That's okay. To me, it's now a charming quirk of this show that it takes us so well to get to the meat of the episode. There's a new band of Horses album. of today. It's called Things Are Great. It's their sixth album, their first album in six years. And I wrote about this album this week. I actually did an interview with the leader of band of Horses, Ben Bridwell. We talked about the band's entire discography. And I don't know, Ian, if you've ever talked to Bridwell, but I did. Back in 2013, I just remembered this for Grantland. I did a Q&A, Band of Horses, Ben Bredwell on the upcoming University of Georgia football season.

He's a big box band, so things really are great for him right now. So you did kind of a different interview. I talked to him about Band of Horses' career, and he was a great interview because he was very candid. He was very self-effacing. I think too self-effacing at times. But I felt like, hey, man, you don't have to be so hard on yourself. but he was very honest about the band's strengths and weaknesses. And it was interesting hearing him talk because one of the things that came up over and over again

was this feeling of being usurped throughout his career, feeling like he wasn't in control of the band's records, feeling like people, whether it be the record label or producers, pushing him away from what Band of Horses does best, which I think is evidenced on their first record, everything all the time, 2006, which I think is still their best record. And it's still one of the all-time spring albums of all-time.

I'm excited once it hits 50 degrees here, which is warm in Minnesota. I'm going to blast that album. I love playing that in the spring. The rawness of that album, the directness, the earnestness, the anthemic quality of that record is so great. And the second record's really great, too,

cease to begin. After that, they move in a slicker direction. Yeah. Not quite as powerful. And Bridwell copped to that in the interview. And he said that, like, on the latest record, things are great, that it was him wanting to take control of his band again and return them to that earlier, more, I guess, innocent sound. I mean, he talks about, he always talks about how he's a bad guitar player and he's not a good singer

and how that helped the music because he just worked on instinct and not technique and maybe the later records suffer from too much technique. Right. But yeah, did you read that interview? Yeah, I really enjoyed that interview. First off, like, I would, yeah, very self-effacing. He would talk about, like, how I don't know how to play music.

Like, a few things stand out from that piece, first of which, who knew that Phil Eck was such a, taskmaster, man. I know. Daniel Eck, Phil, Eck, I mean, maybe they are related. Maybe there's something in like the Eck blood that, you know, leads you to be like kind of this like quasi villainous character. Well, my favorite part of the interview is when,

other than the fact, because there is a moment in the interview where Bridwell took out his phone and he showed me the review that I wrote of Mirage Rock for pitchfork in 2012. I gave it a 4.0. And he called it the worst fucking review of, my career. But he did it in a good-natured way. He was very gracious about it, but he said he was waiting to show me this review once we got to that part of the interview. He was like laying and wait. Exactly. He could finally confront the asshole who wrote the

Mirage Rock review. But my other favorite part of the interview was when he talked about Phil Ack working on Infinite Arms and how he was distracted by being in the running to produce the Third Strokes album. No, wait a minute That would have been like Angles, right? Right. Yeah, which I looked it up.

That was produced by Joe Chichorelli. Yes. Who's like another. Real professional dude. Right. He's like the fill act of like major label rock. Yeah. Evil urges like Jason Moraz albums.

He did a white stripes record. Yeah, he did Joe's Garage, I think too or something like that. And the last Wonder Years album. Yeah, so Phil Eck lost the Angles job to Joe Chichorelli. But while he was working on Infinite Arms with Band of Horses, he was just distracted by being in running for this job. And he eventually left the project, I guess. But yeah, like those kind of details, I'm just like, oh, someone's got to make a documentary about this era of Otts era rock. Because it does seem like there was this generation of bands that came from the indie world that had genuine pressure to conform.

Yeah. To like a major, like there's Kings of Leon, the Black Keys. Yeah. Black Keys and Band of Horses touring together this summer, by the way. Oh, that makes sense. It's a good tour. Yeah. That'd be a good summer tour, not coming to Minnesota.

That seems like a real massive oversight for those two fans to not come to Minnesota. Absolutely. Come to Minnesota in July. Black Keys and Badd Horses? I mean, it's like every other dude here wears flannel. Oh, God, yeah. here in Minnesota. The flannel bearded population would come out in droves for that tour here. Yeah, enjoy a nice beer. Also, I just love the fact that, like, and I think you brought this up a few times about, like, how you didn't get to review a lot of albums at Pitchfork and like your version of like the camp, like the Childish Campino Camp review is like a 4.0 review of a band of horses album that even band of horses doesn't think is very good.

Yeah, but they can't compare though. No one is emailing me about. Mirage Rock, like 10 years later. Imagine if, like, Mirage Rock was, like, the album that was, like, from 2012 that was, like, fucking awesome. And Celebration Rock was the one that sucked. You would have, like, a, you would have had a podcast called Mirage Rock back then, probably. Like, that's a real sliding doors moment. Yeah, I mean, or if I had just gone all in on Mirage Rock, if I had been, like, this is a 9.5.

I love Mara. Celebration Rock is garbage, but I love Mara. Like, I just put all my money on that horse. I think I chose wisely back. Yeah, I think so. But my favorite thing about the interview is just how candid he was about, I think it's really interesting when bands kind of look back on their past album and say, yeah, I wasn't doing such great work back then because a lot of the books I read about songwriting or creativity, like even like particularly Jeff Tweedy's, how to write one song, they make it a point to not be so precious about the songs you write. Just like put it out there. Don't be afraid to write a bad song.

And this conflicts, I think, with this idea that we have as listeners that like bands think of songs as like their children. It's like, you know, I love them all equally. Like my new eighth album is the best thing I've ever done. And yeah, I think it kind of humanizes people to say, like for them to say, yeah, I was kind of like strong armed by the label or this wasn't my best work. we even like cease to begin which is an album we both love he said in the interview that I felt like I had seven songs and we had to push it to 10 I think that's kind of true too I've always kind of suspected that as like the quick follow-up and like the first single which I think is is there a ghost is there a ghost one line of the entire song yeah he's like I had

had one lyric but Phil Eck was like we could turn this into a song and they did and yeah it's a good song and it was the first single from the record and no one's going to love you was the second one and that was classic that's a beautiful song i listened to that a bunch this week that song holds up i mean you know band of horses uh their best music is still great yeah and i think they get a little underrated now i mean because i mean that first record i think is a classic classic and the second one is really good that is like indie cast foundation everything all the time along with the fact that it sort of kind of uses a radiohead lyric as its album title. Now, are you a cease-to-begin, truther?

Do you think that that's better than everything all the time? Depending on how spicy I'm feeling. Like, you know, there are times when I'll sit... I think that those two albums are very similar to, like, you know, the first Interpol or the first two strokes albums where it's like, the first one is the classic. That's acknowledged. But, like, if you're feeling relatively spicy, you might say the second one's better. you know, if I really break it down, I don't think cease to begin as a better album.

Some of the songs I like more, it does feel a bit rushed. But I think that those, that comparison kind of makes sense to me now because all of those bands had their kind of major label slash wilderness phase. And I think that Interpol's album, our love to admire kind of fits alongside the ones that you had mentioned before about indie bands trying to, you know, adhere to a major label sound. Now I think that they've turned around and are a band that people are ready to love again

because I think even more so than the bands that band of horses were compared to early on since the shins or my morning jacket. I hear band of horses more in modern indie rock than any of the bands that they were supposedly influenced by. Is that far off?

No, I don't know if it's more, but I think it's more than they get credit for. I think there's other bands that get credit for influencing bands today. And I don't hear Band of Horses come up as much, and they should, I think. You know, Infinite Arms, their third record, is actually like a pretty beloved album. When I've talked to Band of Horses fans, they often talk about that album as being as good as the first two.

And I don't agree with that, but I do think it's better than certainly Mirage Rock. I think that was, you know, them hitting bottom, which is weird because they were working with Glenn Johns. On paper, that seems like that would be a great partnership, but it didn't really work. And then why are you okay? I think it's actually okay. I think that's a okay album. It's certainly better than Mirage Rock.

This new album, it seems like a record, I have to check myself with this record because I don't want to overrate it. I don't want to overstate how good it is. It's not a return to form. I don't think it's as good as the first two or even Infinite Arms. You know, Infinite Arms has a song like Laredo, which is a pretty undeniable song. Very catchy. I don't think there's anything up to that level on this new album.

Although Crutch, which was the first single, that's a really good song. I think it just shows Bridwell, for all of his self-effacing about, like, I'm not that talented or I'm not a good guitar player or whatever. I think he is a good craftsman. I think he's good at writing rock songs that are catchy and compact and that are very listenable. And on this record, he returns to that with a less slick sound than we've heard from them in the past decade. Which is, crutch, which is crutch, it's not called crush. It sounds like crush. Well, the lyric is crutch.

Or whatever it is, my favorite song of theirs in 15 years. And the interesting thing is like when he's talking about like the rawness and the slit, it sounds like the cure to me sort of kind of. And band of horses plus the cure kind of sort of described. a lot of indie music I hear right now. It's, you know, the self-effacing nature of it, the kind of rawness, the simplicity, the earnestness of it. Like, I hear that more in modern guitar-based indie rock than, like, say, the shins, which

are, you know, they're kind of more like a 60s kind of intricate songwriter type band. Like Ben Bridwell, he'll tell you, yo, I rewrite weed party, like, at least five times per album and you know what that works yeah you know Britwell's voice i think is really interesting because there's a bit of a southern twang to it yes puts them in that lane where you know i'm sure that they've had impact on like Americana acts for oh yeah would be drawing from them but then it's also it sounds a little emoish his vocals do you hear emo bands i mean like yes band of horses is like a very like you can kind of hear that like vis-a-vis Manchester Orchestra. That's like the most obvious parallel, I think.

Manchester is very, I don't know if Andy's ever said that explicitly that he was influenced by them, but it seems like an obvious touchstone. Yeah. And, you know, if you think about like Manchester Orchestra and how many bands they've influenced, it's definitely there. Like I get the sense like when I talk to like certain, emo or indie bands that like, it's similar to like bands like antlers, let's say, where it's seen as like, oh, this is, you know, a past era of indie rock, but they're like, no, this, you know,

this very earnest, very emotional, very compact style of music was quite, like, was quite impactful to me. So, once again, it's another situation where, like, the, the, remember some guys, the, remember some guys wave very strong in emo bands. Yeah, and I think that for a certain generation of musicians, rock musicians, if you weren't into what was going on in indie music in the late 2000s, as far as like the artier stuff that was really being pushed to the forefront, and again, we've talked about this recently, but Animal Collective, Dirty Projectors,

grizzly bear, that whole scene, Banner Horses wasn't alternative to that. They were more of like just a chunky guitar band. and if you were 13 or 14 years old, I could see that really speaking to you, and then, of course, here we are. Those same people now are in their mid-20s. I could see them really being a touchdown,

perhaps for that generation of musicians. But again, I mean, everything all the time, that record for sure, I think, holds up really well. You know, is it as good as this it or turn on the bright lights? I don't know, but I mean, I don't feel, You know what, let's just put it in that company. I'm going to put it in that company. Because I think for what it is, it's as good at what it does as those records are

at doing what they do. Yeah, I mean, like, turn on the bright lights. I associate that with like a far more grand emotional state. Like when I'm like on the New Jersey transit up to New York about to like have these like very strange weekends with my friends where I ask like everything all the time like you were saying. It's like, oh, it's 60 degrees out in Athens, Georgia. it's time to wear shorts and bust out the shandies, like, mind you, very good times, but like not as, not really as, like, formative.

Well, you know, funeral, I think is a pretty epic emotional track. Oh, yeah. No, it's like that is, that epitomizes, like, mid-2000s anthemic, but also commercial can, like, be, I also love how, like, he mentioned that song has been sampled. by a lot of rappers and EDM artists. A funeral has? Yeah. This was in another interview that just ran today on stereo gum.

Oh, I didn't know that. That's interesting. Yeah, he talks about how that song has had like a weirdly interesting half-life in genres that have absolutely nothing at all to do with his own. Well, and I could see that song crossing over in the same way that that cold play songs crossed over where it's just this larger-than-life song and, it may not have indie hipness,

but it's like the kind of song that like anyone kind of likes. But it did have indie hipness at one point. That's true. And it was in a commercial for something. Yeah, 290 million streams. Yeah.

Big hit. Deserved to be a big hit. Yeah. That's a great song. So yeah, definitely check out the album. Things are great. A hilarious album title.

Yeah, awesome. Great to drop that album in the world as it this right now. I mean, it's... Ben of Horses is counter-programming.

It is. Like, I just want to, like, say about this record, like, it's... I think that,

like, there are times where you might actually kind of trick yourself into thinking an album is, like, actual good

when it's just, like, not bad from an artist who's been around for a long time and just kind of has faded a bit. No,

like, I actually enjoy listening to this album. It's like, I will return to this throughout the year. I think it's a solid, like,

7.0 record. like three and a half stars, which is really good. And I think it's a very listenable, three and a half stars. You're not going to be mad when it's on. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first?

Well, here's an album that you will be mad when you're listening to. It's from a band called Vane FM. Their new album, This World, is going to ruin you. I love how this message meshes with a band of horses album called Things Are Great. This World is Going to Ruin you. So, they used to be called Vane. They're now called Vane FM.

Nobody calls them Vain FM. But if you're looking for them on Spotify, I just have to use the real name. So in 2018, they put out a record called Error Zone, which I don't think New Metal or Metal Core had really gotten the kind of foothole that it had. in indie circles at that time. But the first song on that record sampled the Ahmed breakbeat and sort of sounded like slip-knot. It's one of the most awesome songs

in the metal genre from the past couple of years. It was a big hit in its realm. And then they just kind of took four years. Like this album was actually finished in early 2020 and they just had it on hold. But, you know, this one, if you like metal, if you like metal core,

this is definitely a new metal band. This record kind of goes more in different sort of new metal, like kind of post new metal directions. There's a little bit of death tones. Some nine-inch nail circa, the fragile experimentation, and just other songs that take more after converge. I cannot wait for this album to hit streaming because I've only been able to listen to it through a holics, like promo jukebox player where you don't get the seamless play. Like you'll be at the gym and you have to wait for the site. load. Yeah, so this, if you like some of the stuff I've recommended on the past podcast, you know,

like knocked loose or the arm or the other like heavy ass music that, I imagine Steve might not touch with the 10 foot pole. This album's going to be for you. It's thoroughly ridiculous, but also really awesome. So Van FM, the world's going to ruin you. I like some of those bands that you mentioned. I like the armed. Yes.

I like some of the other stuff too. I've listened to, I saw a video actually for one of the songs from this vein. Oh, is it the one with like the big like blood bath at the end where it's like, that's awesome. It's like an insane video. Which I have to say, like you to circle back to our music video conversation, that is a song that I enjoy more because of the video. Yeah, it is so funny that it's, and like it's self-aware. Right. Yeah.

It's extreme. It's hilarious. So that's a great video. Yeah. So in that instance, video, help the indie band. I want to talk about a little band called Sonic Youth, who incredibly have a new album coming out next week. It's called In Out In,

and it comes courtesy of the great indie label, Three Low Bed Recordings. It's a collection of instrumentals that were recorded between 2000 and 2011. So you get five tracks, spread out over 45 minutes. And it actually really covers the gamut of, like, what Sonic Youth does. There's some really beautiful, vibey, quiet tracks. There's some just screechingly noisy tracks.

There's some catchy rockin tracks. You get a little bit of everything on this album. And look, it's great to have new Sonic Youth music because I don't think that this band will ever get back together again. No. So there will be no reunion album. Maybe there will. I don't know. I doubt it.

No, absolutely. not. An album like this is really the only way that we're going to get new Sonic Youth Music, and I think it's a really cool record. So again, it comes out next week, March 11th. I actually ordered a physical copy of this, like a month or two ago, and I got my copy already. So if you've ordered this, you may already have it and already might be enjoying it. Otherwise, definitely check it out next week. Again, it's called In Out In, and it's by an up-and-coming band named Sonic Youth. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week.

And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to Uprox.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.