Indiecast - Billie Eilish + Foxing

Episode Date: August 6, 2021

During last week’s episode, Steve and Ian took some time to theorize that Billie Eilish’s new album Happier Than Ever might be heading in the direction of a sophomore slump. However, the latest effort from the young superstar is a good example of an LP featuring a handful of underwhelming singles that misrepresent and otherwise pretty good album. Happier Than Ever seems to share some inspiration DNA with the new Clairo album, in that they are both reactions to fame records, but instead of going abrasive they’ve gone even quieter and more hushed. Overall, the new album from the young superstar feels very much apiece with how people listen to music now, and a thoroughly enjoyable affair.Next up on the docket is Draw Down The Moon, the latest opus from St. Louis band Foxing. It’s the follow-up to the band’s third studio album Nearer My God — which Ian is quick to name the best album of any genre of the last five years — and goes to places even grander and enveloping. Long story short, it can either take the band to completely new heights in their career… or destroy them entirely. Only time will tell!In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Steve is recommending No Medium, the new album from Rosali that was released a few months ago. Ian has been vibing with Lantlôs, the German “post-black metal” band that dropped their latest effort Wildhund last week.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to IndyCast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we review new albums by Billy Elish and Foxing. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? All right, so I just got to warn our listeners if my voice sounds a little bit huskier and lower today.

It's not because I'm trying to do kind of like a soft-spoken Billy Eilish thing. I've actually been homesick the past couple of days, like, which is, yeah, it's like, I've gotten, like, two COVID tests in the past four days, both negative. But, like, this is, this is just how spooked I am by the whole deal. But, yeah, like, I mean, being homesick, like, unlike being homesick from school, like, this is not fun, creates more work for me. But what I...

You know, I was sick a few weeks ago when I was wondering if I had... Yeah. But I don't think it... But, you know, if I did, it was totally fine because it wasn't that big of a deal. You know what I mean? I mean, do you think we're all going to get COVID at some point? It seems inevitable.

It seems like getting the flu. And as long as you're vaccinated, you should be okay. Feel good episode of Indycast. We're all going to get COVID. Well, I don't, you know, I just feel like, again, if you're vaccinated, it seems that it's not that big of a deal. You'll just feel sick for a few days and you'll move on. Yeah, we're going to have to have like a warning.

on this episode like Ian and Steve are not doctors if you're yeah I'm just you know I'm trying to look on the bright side here if that happens yeah I do think we have to like adjust to the new reality but um you know there there there are only two upsides to being homesick like the first is which you know I don't drink I don't do drugs the closest thing I get is like what the rare times when I'm sick where I can take dayquil and listen to my morning jackets at dawn oh man that's the that is the closest thing I can get to a psychedelic experience these days. And secondly, like, I don't know, like, I'm not healing, but nature is because, you know, when I'm home all day, I can be on Twitter more and I can be up on the discourse.

And, you know, this week's disc, do you have, like, the director of the Woodstock 99 docs, like, email or like a home address? I need to send that guy a Christmas card or something like that for just, like, unintentionally has released so many dormant bands or cultural threads back into the discourse. Like, I've had to think about the offspring a lot recently.

Right. Like, first off, the hair. Like, noodles and Dexter Holland, just phenomenal hair. Right. Like, televangelists, but, like, Southern California pop punk. Especially noodles is, like,

going pretty crazy. Yeah. And also rocking the Black Lives Matter shirt in the Black Sabbath font, which is pretty great. But then, yeah, they had their issue with the drummer this week where the drummer won't get vaccinated, so then he's out of the band. And which is, in a way, we can tie this to Woodside 99. It also makes me think of some way of the Mumford and Son story from earlier this year, like where the violin player, I'm sorry, the banjo player.

Is there a violin player in Mumford? Probably, but that's not the guy we're talking about. That story was much funnier because he plays the banjo. Right, but he got kicked up because he was an Andy No fan, so there's like a right-wing thing there. And then I don't know, I guess with the offspring drummer, he has a prior condition. And I was reading this that his doctor said that he shouldn't get vaccinated because it would, I forget what his pre-existing condition is, but it would exacerbate that. So it's not like an ideological thing.

It's a health thing, apparently. But yeah, they're back in the convo. And there's all this limp biscuit stuff too, you know, because they were just that lalapalooza. They were. Speaking of wigs. Yeah. And Fred Dirk shouted out Woodstock 99. Not the movie specifically, but he said, this isn't Woodstock 99.

You know, it has nothing to do with that bullshit, I think, was the quote. Which was an amazing moment, by the way. for me personally to see that. But yeah, this week was Limp Biscuit discourse. Like, it's like we're picking out of a hat. Like, what's going to be the discourse this week? You know, like, there was also a sublime reimagining because, like, it was 25 years after theirs.

But, like, yeah, Limp Biscuit's kind of like the last frontier of, like, pop-timism, you know? Well, my take on that is that it has less to do with Limp Biscuit and more about people just being really irritated with Moby. Where, you know, Moby is in the movie trashing new metal, and he irritates people so much that they're compelled to take the opposite sides. Like, he hates Limp Biscuit, then I love Limp Biscuit. You know, it's very social media reactionary type thing. And I wonder if it's going to be shallow for that reason,

because I don't see a lot of people making a, like, a substantive case for, you know, chocolate starfish in the hot dog flavored water being in a line masterpiece. I mean, like, for me personally, like, I'll say, I think there's, like, a handful of, like, limp biscuit singles that I enjoy. I legitimately like the song my way. I think that's a good, catchy song. And I could see them being a good festival band. You know, I think they, you know, I think they.

they could play like a 45 minute set and it would be enjoyable. But like a deep dive into their catalog, I think would reveal a lot of garbage. I mean, I think by and large their catalog is not that great. No, like, even back when they were like, like, I think I reviewed chocolate starfish and the hot dog flavored water for my college newspaper. Like, I actually honestly think like a deep dive into Limp Biscuit would be far more interesting than like, you know, the singles. because like I never like I never liked Limp Biscuit. It'd be interesting but like would it be good in the sense of like, oh, you're discovering all these gems that people don't.

What else do I have? What else do I have better to do? I mean, yeah, because you and I were critics, so we are into that sort of thing where if you can write an interesting take on something that hasn't been written about to death, it's inherently you're going to be on board with that. Can I just say, like, I don't want to get too much into this because I've tried to... I do.

I've tried to avoid, like, responding to critiques of the movie, because I'm just glad people watch the movie and that they have an opinion on. It seems like a lot of people have watched it, which is great. But I just want to say, like, I feel that so many people, not everybody, but a lot of people watch the movie, and they get to about the 45-minute mark, and that's when Moby goes on his little like anti new metal tirade that lasts about 30 seconds in the movie and they're so annoyed by it that they immediately go to their phone and they go on a tweet storm talking about how new metal is being blamed for what's like 99 and this film is being unfair and yada yada yada and in the process

of doing that they miss literally four people after him refuting what he just said including jonathan Davis of Korn, who, in my opinion, comes off as well as anybody in the movie. Absolutely. Very articulate, very reasonable guy. His performance, you don't see much of it, but it's pretty fantastic performance. Oh, my God. Like, I watched, like, even before all this nostalgia, I would just, like, sometimes, like, just, oh, I feel like watching the Korn 99 performance of blind on YouTube.

It's like, it's just something like I regularly watch every, like, a couple of weeks. Yeah. It's just like, it gives me chills, like, you know, in a way that I can separate from like, wow, like the rest of Woodstock 99. Yeah, and Corn, I think you can make a legitimate case. Certainly their first three or four albums being really good. Legitently innovative. Yeah, an innovative, forward thinking, you know, being totally removed from the classic rock canon in a way that, say, Grunge wasn't. Grunge was very much an extension of like 70s rock, whereas corn was something.

very unique to the 90s. You could totally make that case, I think, for them. You know, I kind of wish there was more talk about corn right now and less about limp biscuit. But, you know, the limp biscuit performance is so memorable. And Moby is so memorable, possibly for negative reasons, that it kind of overwhelms the whole thing. It's like Moby is like the garlic in that movie.

Some people can only taste him. That's a terrible way to phrase that. Sorry, I phrased it that way. I just mean, like, a lot of people, that's what they remember when the movie's over. And in my opinion, it overwhelms some of the other things that provide more nuance. Yeah, I agree. I think that, like, I went in expecting way more of a negative, like, approach to new metal. In reality, I think the documentary does, like, a really good job of, like,

centering on the real villains, which are the people who put on Woodstock 99 and, like, the bad actors, you know, at the actual festival. But, like, yeah, you got to hand it to Moby for being, like, so unlikable that, like, people will take the side of, like, Fred Durst. Oh, yeah. I mean, John... Like, that's a talent right there. I mean, John Cher is the... Is probably the biggest villain of the movie. Oh, God.

But then Moby, in a way, is, like, the second one. Yeah. And, again, I don't want to rip on Moby. I'm glad he talked for the film, and... And, again, I think people are being, like, a little unfair to him, but, like, his new metal riff. He's painting with a broad brush, I think, to put it mildly. But again, I would say, too, that the movie isn't really about new metal. It's, again, like, if you watch the movie, again, it's only about a five-minute part of the movie that talks about new metal. And then there's other things,

you know, there's Jewel, there's DMX in the movie. I mean, there's, as people have pointed out, there was, like, a lot of music that was a new metal. Most of it was. It wasn't new metal. Most of it, yeah. There's G-love and special sauce. Where's the G-love discourse, people? And, yeah, there's Dave Mustain. There's Scott Stapp.

Which, by the way, you know, no one's really talked about this. I thought Scott Stapp was likeable in the movie, too. Yeah. Yeah, and pretty articulate. And it seemed like... Reasonable. Yeah, it seemed like he's gotten himself together. Good for him.

Yeah, he looked good. I thought he spoke well. So, you know, shout out to him. him. Dave. The Creed reassessment is just around the corner. Like, we are, we got to, like, collect them all. Like, every night, like, we've seen, like, kind of a nickelback re-appraisal kind

of sort of. Like, people are just waiting in the wings for, just, like, give me your reason. Right. To, like, talk about this one song that I liked, because I heard it on the radio all the time. And I think it's, like, a lot of, a lot of this is just because it was, it's more fun to talk about these gigantic bands that, like, dwarf anything. thing that's happening now.

There is no modern equivalent to Creed. There is no modern equivalent of Limp Biscuit Rock or otherwise. Yeah, I mean, Fred Durs is such a larger-than-life character. He's like a comic book character. And in that respect, I think there is something appealing about him, especially if you are younger and maybe you don't have

the baggage of the time. Like I've seen people tweet who are in their early 20s who have been defending Limp Biscuit. and I think in a way they're an easier band to appreciate if you are younger and you weren't alive in 1999 and you weren't aware of like all the other things

that were associated with Limp Biscuit, like you can just sort of see them in a vacuum as like a fun time, goofy band. In the same way that like I think people my age looked at a band like poison or something and it felt like, oh, poison's fun. You know, why do people hate poison? And it's like, well, because you weren't,

Alive at the time and you weren't seeing like a million bands like that you know like there were like a million new metal bands on MTV in 1999 A lot of them were bad a lot of them people don't remember a lot of them were good too there were great new metal bands You know slip you know slip you know slip not system of a down you know corn seven dust had some bangers Yes um but uh it's interesting because i mean not only because of the movie are people talking about limp biscuit also because limbusket also because limbusket was at lala paloosue And obviously Lala Palooza booked Limp Biscuit before the Woodstock 99 doc came out. So something was in the air with that band. I'm wondering, like, what do you think about the discourse around, like, the crowds at Lollapalooza? Because, you know, I understand people's concerns about COVID and the Delta variant.

But it's not as though there are no other festivals happening right now or that there's not other concerts. or sporting events. I know Lollapalooza is bigger, but it seemed like the outrage at Lollapalooza was a little disproportionate to me. It's like, are we saying then that there should be no public events? Because what makes it better to go to any concert,

any outdoor concert that has, why is it better to go to a show with 10,000 people? Well, I think with Lollapalooza, it's, you know, it's the atmosphere around it. You know, like, as Newport Folk Festival happened as well. And, you know, Newport Folk Festival, at least not in 2021,

is going to book Limp Biscuit. Perhaps in, like, 2015, the cultural change to the point where Limp Biscuit is considered folk music. That's amazing. A documentary of, like, our mundanities. But, yeah, I think it's just, like, maybe there's a negative view

of, like, Law & Blues in general. Like, I know a lot of Chicago wins, just don't really like what Lori Lightfoot has done in general. And it's a good target for like all the concerns, you know, legitimate that are bubbling up about like, well, what's happening now that we're all being released back into the while. But I mean, a lot of bands, what I think you'll start to see is kind of do like vaxed only shows. I know bright eyes canceled. All indoor shows, I believe. And Japanese breakfast, like, I think is also doing like vaxed only and New York city is you got to show proof of vaccination or what have you.

So, I mean, I think Lalapalooza is maybe like the first big festival. So it's going like outdoor in the United States. So it's going to get the majority of the, you know, discourse around it. Maybe it'll start to tamp down once Riot Fest happens and so forth. And who that? But like, I mean, when you look at the, when you look at those pictures in general, like that size of a crowd, you just haven't seen that. in so long that it's going to be inherently shocking.

And also, especially if you're a type of person who just doesn't like to be around crowds in general. Everything about it just gives you this visceral reaction. Yeah, I mean, I'm not defending Lollapalooza because, in almost every other respect, I think it's kind of a gross festival. I mean, I've been there. It's not that fun to go to.

So, you know, I understand people being critical of Lala Palluza as an enterprise. I know that there's also been a conversation about them, getting preferential treatment from the city and all that kind of stuff. And I understand that. But in terms of the COVID conversation, you know, it did seem like a little bit of an easy target to focus on this festival where people maybe aren't sympathetic to the bill, you know, or the acts that are playing there. Yeah. And it's easy to say, you know, make fun of this festival or to fret about this festival.

And meanwhile, there's all these other things going on where there's lots of people gathering with no masks. and no one's talking about those things. So I don't know if it's... Well, those other things don't have limp biscuit playing. Let's just leave it. Yeah, I suppose. But, I mean, I'm going to a stadium show in Chicago next month. At least as of now, I'm going to go see Dead & Co at Wrigley Field.

Probably be like 50,000 people there. I mean, I'm vaxed. You know, my friend, Rob Mitchum, friend of the podcast. Shout to Rob Mitchum. He's vaxed. You know, I think, I mean, we'll see what happens. We both have children who aren't vaxed, so I think there's some concern there. And I don't know if they're going to be requiring vaccination cards or not.

I think wasn't like Live Nation doing that, like Ticketmaster? I thought you had to like, I think when I bought the ticket, it said that you had to bring a card with you to the stadium showing that you're vaxed. I don't know. Just get vaxed. If you're not vaccinated. Just do it. Just please do it, you know, do it for yourself. Just be purely selfish about it.

I mean, there is the larger social benefit of everyone being vaxed, but do it for yourself because, look, you know, there's a chance with this thing going around that you might get it. And if you're vaxed, it's much less likely to be a big deal. You know, I'm not a doctor, but based on what I've read and based on anecdotal evidence, it seems like people who are vaxed come. through it okay and it's not that big of a deal. Indie cast in the pocket of big pharma.

They work. They work. Yeah. I'm just, I care about our listeners. That's what we are. I care about our listeners. I am trying to, I want them to be safe.

I want them to be healthy. Right. Is this something we can both encourage our, uh, our listeners to do? Totally. Um, so we can keep this going.

Um, recommendation corner. We're doing it early, getting vaccinated. Let's go to our mailbag. I'm wondering, by the way, if you want to write to us our addresses, Indycastmailbag at gmail.com, please head us up. We love hearing from you. I'm wondering, should you read this letter?

Because it's addressed to you, but I can also read it to you if you want to react to it. Yeah, why don't you read it? Okay, this is directly at you. And I have a feeling that the theme of this letter is going to be an ongoing theme. Oh, yeah. Of this show for the next couple months. I've really opened the door to people knowing about my personal life. Well, you know, they always say that with television shows,

if you want to goose the ratings, you either get someone pregnant or you get someone, you know, like marry them off so you can have like a wedding episode. So this is our gambit for ratings here. We're going to marry Ian off in October. And we're going to, but before that, we're turning it into content on our show. So it says, for Ian.

Yes. So this is from Dan in Connecticut. And he says, congrats on the upcoming nuptials. And he basically says, I have an idea for your first dance song. Like when you and your bride are dancing in front of everybody. And he suggests listening to ladies and gentlemen, we are floating in outer space by spiritualized. It says, it checks the boxes. It's about love.

It's a left field choice that the real heads will know and appreciate. and it ends with a chorus everyone knows. Is that last one true? Do people know the course? Well, it depends which version you get because I know until 2009 there was a version with Elvis Presley's

that can't help fall in love. Oh, right. And so the Elvis Presley estate banned them from using it, but eventually they relented and that that chorus is on at the end. But that's only if you use the 2000,

2009 remaster. Wow. Okay. So we are being very specific here. 2009 remaster version of ladies and gentlemen, we are floating in space. Letter continues. It could be so dope. Everyone is crying for 30 seconds. And then you go right into hey yeah by Outcast. And that's from Dan in Connecticut. So we already have listeners making suggestions for your playlist. And I like this idea, by the way.

I like the idea that maybe our listeners, will be your DJ for your wedding reception. They will pick the playlist for you. Maybe we can float that down the road here for an Indycast special episode. But what do you think of this suggestion, Ian? I mean, I honestly don't know what I'm going to play at my wedding yet when it comes to like the real heads. The real heads aren't my real life friends. You know, most of them who listen to Indicast have no idea what I'm talking about, like 95 to 98% of the time.

You know, I do like the energy of this. I think the kind of sound is appropriate. Like, we were going over maybe a few ideas. It was, like, solo, like, post-return of the Frog Queen, Jeremy Enoch, or, like, Tocera, Seagor Ross. Like, something that sounds like 90% majestic, maybe, like, 5% to 10% emo. So this kind of fits in here. But, like, the problem with this particular song and this particular album, like you said,

you know, it's about love. This album, to me, is about, like, having a crippling heroin addiction. And also, Jason Pierce, the leader of spiritualized, like, this album was made after the dissolution of his relationship with the keyboardist of the band, because she went off and got secretly married to Richard Ashcroft from the verve. Which, like, I'm not going to front. Like, in 1997, like, you're probably, like, it's got a hard to compete with Richard. Ashcroft. Like, of course, I would be sad enough to make this kind of album, but also be like, yeah, what is Richard Ashcroft? I mean, I've been married now for almost 13 years. I might leave my wife for Richard Ashcroft if he proposed to me. I mean, especially 1997, you know, urban hymns,

Bittersweet Symphony, Richard Ashcroft. The cover of Rolling Stone, like his cheekbones dug out with a shovel. That is like a rock god right there. Yeah, cheekbones to break your heart. That's what those, that's what those babies were. Yeah, I mean, um, You know, I know I have some expertise in this because I DJed my own wedding reception, meaning that I programmed a playlist and I put a lot of thought into it. And one, I think the central dilemma of doing this is that on one hand, you want to flex your music nerd muscles and just play all these cool songs that you love that many people in attendance won't know.

And then at some point you get a moment of clarity, you're like, I actually want people to have fun at this wedding. And that's when you start plugging in like Motown songs and, you know, a flock of seagulls. I ran so far away. You know what I mean? And no diggity. All of the, like this person said, hey, yeah, things that you might roll your eyes at is being

wedding songs, but there's a reason why they're wedding songs because they deliver, get people on the dance floor. And it's like, do I want to be cool or do I want people to, to like dance and have a good time. And I feel like it's generally better to go with the latter route, even if you have a more predictable playlist at your wedding. Yeah, but I think that like this gets to a point where it's like, if it's the first dance, like, no one's under pressure to like, you know, get on the dance floor,

maybe there you can get like your little thing in there. Like, I don't know. You guys will definitely know what I end up choosing. We're just going to leave that as a cliffhanger to get people who are otherwise, you know, on the fence about whether they choose to continue to listen to the darker, more introspective second year of Indycast. Like, they're going to want to hang on until October, okay? Yeah, I mean, are we going to get your fiancé on the pod at some point?

Like, are you going to, like, wake her up? Yeah, no, she's totally going to get on here and just completely blow my cred out of the water because, like, you're going to ask like a question about, I don't know, me without you or Pedro the Lion or, like, these bands with which she has, like, way more credibility to myself. Or we should have got her on to talk about DC talk. I mean, she was the one

who put me onto that. Like, that was in the discourse this week. Yeah, like, look, man, I'm just worried about getting pushed out. Like, if we were to get her on the podcast,

she would have so much more interesting things to say than I do that I'm just being very protective and insecure. Well, I think you're selling her as the new co-host of this show.

I mean, you're really building her up here what I would hope is that I would ask her about your listening habits and she'd be like oh he doesn't listen to emo at all around the house it's all just like James Blunt Ed Shearin he listens to all the Shrek soundtracks around the house you know that emo stuff is just a front for the public yeah I just I just say I like emo for like the the vast amounts of credibility and money that being a fourth and fifth wave emo fan can acquire in 2021. Well, you're a leading superstar in the indie podcast realm. So you've landed that. We're the only

stars in this galaxy, Steve. That's true. That's true. So I mean, so you have established a really strong brand because of that. And then your fiancé will talk about all the Shrek soundtracks that you listen to in your private life and it'll totally shatter that. So maybe for my own good, too, we should keep her quiet. But I don't know. Maybe we'll get my wife on the show too. We'll just have The spouses of Indycast, like spin-off podcast. Could be great. All right, well, let's get into the meat of our episode. We're going to be reviewing two albums in this episode.

So the first album we're talking about is, I think it's fair to call it the biggest album on the planet right now. It's called Happier Than Ever by Billy Elish. And of course, Billy Elish is the 19-year-old phenom from Los Angeles, California. She put out her debut album in 2019 called When We All Fall Asleep, Where do we go? Which just became a huge blockbuster, swept the Grammys, and it really made her, is it fair to call her the biggest pop star on the planet?

I mean, certainly she's among the top five biggest pop stars. Maybe not as big as, like, say, Taylor Swift or what have you, but at least the one with, like, popularity combined with, like, cultural juice. Like, I would say that you would look at her. It's like, yeah, this is what we were. will remember in 2019. Like when the period piece is about the late aughts get made, like this is what we're going to look at.

And the flip side, of course, of that sort of notoriety is that being famous can be really sucky, especially when you're as young as Billy Eilish. And, you know, I'm thinking about some of the controversies that she's been involved with in recent years, all of which seemed pretty silly. Like, I was thinking about that story about how she didn't know who Van Gogh. Dan Halen was. And people jumped down her throat about that for like a week, I feel like. You know, just things like that.

She's so famous that anything that she says tends to get blown way out of proportion. And that really feeds into this new record. It is very much a reaction to fame record. And it's also made a collaboration with her brother Phineas, who was her main collaborator on the first record. So there's that stability there creatively, but lyrically there's a lot of instability going on where she's reflecting on this newfound status that she's had. And, you know, we talked a little bit about this album last week, and we were wondering if this album was going to be a disaster of some sort. That might be overstating a little bit.

But just some of the advanced singles to me were not especially strong, especially, you know, like songs like Lost Cause and NDA. to me, having heard the record, I feel like those are among the weaker songs on the album. And this does seem like another example of like a big time album being ill-served by the advanced singles. Because I actually think this record's like more interesting than we were led to believe by the early morsels that we were fed. Yeah, we were dead wrong about the reception it's going to get. Like it's one of the most acclaimed albums of the year thus far. And, like, of course, you know, at the outset, I was a little skeptical of that because I think a lot of the bigger publications have, like, a vested interest in someone like Billy Elish continuing to be at the forefront, you know, as much as she represents a kind of a new type of pop star, and a lot of ways she is still very much like, it appears, like, she's the type of pop star that Dave Grohlk will look at and say, like, this is the new Nirvana. I think he actually did say that because that's a very Dave Rold thing to say.

Well, and not just him, but like, Billy Joe Armstrong, Eddie Vedder. Guys with their fingers on the pulse. Well, all the 90s rock guys, it seemed like Billy Eilish was the one that they latched on to. And I feel like that probably was related to her image on the first record, which was, I think, more akin to like an alternative rock 90s, kind of gothic thing. Struggling with fame as well because, you know, like that was, that was the thing in the 90s, you know, like struggle, like, I'm a pop star, but like, does this, like, do I find this to be,

like, ethically satisfying? And so, I think it's that. Yeah, there was this, like, kind of like rockism thing with her a little bit. Yeah, it is. And I hate using that word, but, I mean, it did seem like people who wouldn't normally be clued into contemporary pop music really latched onto her. And I'll say that for myself. I really like that record, too. And I probably responded to the more, I guess, like, nine-age nails aspects of that first record. That's what brought me in. On this record,

a lot of that stuff has been pushed to the background. If the first record was like an early 90s record, this one is almost like a late 90s record, like the trip hop element here, and the more kind of laid back almost like

pan cultural aspect. There's a song in here called Billy Basanova. Billy Isle is like a Basanova song. Billy Eilish and Origami Angel both their Basanova songs. Like, I would have to say I prefer the origami angel version to Billy Elish, which of course I would say.

But I just love the fact that I can say something like that in 2021. You know, one thing that is not very 90s about this album is when we talk about 90s records that would react to fame, you know, whether it be in utero, like I guess in utero being the defining example, it was always about getting louder and more abrasive. And I feel like now we're in a moment where quiet is the new last. You know, like, because I think about this album and the Clero album that came out, I guess, about a month ago or so, where that album also is, I think, more hushed and more introspective than Clero's first album. It seems less about the earworms and more about sort of looking inward and, again, singing in very hushed tones. And Billy Eilish already had that on her first record, but she doubles down on it on this record.

And I think it does make this album initially maybe harder to access, because it's not as, I think, grabby as the first record. But in a way, I respect what she's doing, because I think in a lot of ways, this wasn't the obvious second album for her to make. But there's things on this record that I think eventually reveal themselves to be pretty catchy. Like the song OxyContin, I think, is like a pretty... Big difference. I want to say that from like a scientific perspective.

Oxytocin. Yeah, oxycontin is a very different thing. This is where you're expert. Or I didn't change my number. I like that song. That's a really good song. And again, I feel like those songs are stronger than some of the singles that were forwarded ahead of this record. I think I was really pleasantly surprised by how much I like this. Because, oh, I think the pleasant and surprise part is due to the fact that I came in here with like really not a lot of context. I mean, I heard the singles in passing, and, you know, when you're less, you know, when you're less relied upon to have, like, something to say about, like, the zeitgeist, you don't have to engage with the most popular shit on Earth. But, like, when I, you mentioned trip hop.

Like, this is a, this is something that I don't get to talk about a lot on this particular, on this show, or just in general. But, like, late 90s, like, second year college, I was deep in the tank of, like, all those remembersome guys. trip-hop artists like Dodd Allison, Lamb, Maloko, sneaker pimps, you know, post-massive attack stuff. Like, what's that? Oh, God, I can't, I can't remember some of these guys. But I listen to it and it's, you know, it reminds me of that era of music where it makes me, like if I were 19 and listening to that, it would make me feel like I was 28 or something like that, like much cooler, much more mature.

and I think that makes it an easier album for me to process than listening to something like, say, Olivia Rodrigo, which you kind of have to feel, you kind of have to put yourself in the mindset of a teenager. Like, this is a much different sort of nostalgia for me, one that's a bit easier to access and one that doesn't really, like, impress itself on me. So even in the same way that, like, folklore does.

Like, folklore in its own way is, like, a pretty loud album. And so, like, I feel like I could just, like, like listen to this and kind of think back to being in college and like thinking about like what my first apartment is going to look like and so forth. And yeah, I mean, it's, and also I think a lot of the sounds are like legitimately innovative. Of course, this comes from a perspective where I'm listening to like mostly guitar based pop punk now. It's like, I almost think like I like I like this album more because like because of like the revival of pop punk. It's like, oh, cool, this doesn't have Travis Barker on it. I might try to engage with this. I mean, I, I, I, I,

We'll say I think this is a step down from the debut. I think the debut record is better than this record. And there's some moments on this album that I don't really like. Again, like the Billy Basanova song. It's long. Yeah, it's long. And she's attempting things that I don't think she quite pulls off on this record. Although I do appreciate, again, that she didn't make the obvious follow-up to the big-time debut.

You know, she's not trying to make another bad guy on this record. It seems like she's really trying to take a snapshot of, where she is at this moment. And I think in that regard, the album is a success. But, yeah, you know, one thing that has come up with this album is people talking about her writing about her own fame. Yeah. And this is something that comes up often with huge pop stars who start to feel some backlash

to all the success that they've had. And of course, they're going to write about it because it's the biggest thing in their life. I mean, what else is Billy Island? is going to be focused on at this moment. And I have to say that, like, I tend to like records like that when they're pulled off. Because I think that, yeah, you can't relate to Billy Eilish handing an NDA to someone that she hooks up with. So he doesn't, like, go to the tabloids and, like, talk. Because I think that's what the song NDA is about.

It's about, like, her picking up a dude and then, like, she gives him, like, an NDA and, like, sends him away. that's not something necessarily that the average person can relate to. But, you know, she is singing about, you know, depression, you know, not feeling comfortable in your own skin. I mean, these are all things that I think people can relate to. I mean, she's not just talking about how she can't decide on what she ought to buy or something, you know. Which if she was, like, I think that would be interesting.

I listen to a lot of, like, I listen to a lot of rap, like, where it's, you know, like, Rick Ross, for example. It's like I don't want to relate to pop stars. Like, I want them to be inaccessible in that way. And I think that, like, specifically the first song where she talks about, like, the things I used to enjoy, just keep me employed. Like, I, like, she's obviously talking about, like, music and the experience of, like, being her. But, like, when I'm, like, 200 words into, like, a 650-word review of an album that, like, fuck, why did I take this assignment? I just think back to like, you know, the blogging days of 2004.

I could write 5,000 words about death cabin, be like, yo, Billy, I feel you on that one, you know? I feel you on that. Yeah, and look, I mean, she did have a tremendous amount of success in a relatively short period of time. And in a way that, like, I think, like, how could that not be destabilizing? And I think that actually is interesting to look at. I want to hear from a person who's gone through an experience like that because it seems pretty extraordinary.

And the thing with Billy Ilish too is that I feel like she's been used a little bit by things like the Grammys or like aging rock stars as like a signifier of like hip youth culture. And it's like this is something that we can glom on to to make ourselves look hipper than we actually are. And that's a tremendous burden to be putting on someone like Billy Island. I feel like this record in a way is like her starting to come out from under that, where, like you said, it isn't a record that feels adolescent. It does feel like an adult record. And as she progresses in her career and she gets to album three and four, you know, she's not going to be the young fiendom anymore.

She's going to be, you know, a young woman in her 20s. And I think, I'm sure that's important for her to not just be perceived as this sort of youthful, Wunderkeemed, you know, that other people can point to and say, I like this and that makes me cool. That is a word I've never heard said out loud. Yes, I think I said it correctly. Yeah, I hope I did. I assume so. I don't know.

So, well, let's move on to our next record, and I feel like you need to take the lead on this one, because this band, is this your favorite band working right now? I would say it's definitely, I think they're the best band working right now, but we're talking about, of course, the offsprings now I'm playing. We are talking about, of course, the new Foxing record, Draw Down the Moon. It's a very special occasion when I actually get to introduce the band. But Foxing, they've been around since 2011, let's say. One of their first splits, oddly enough, was with Japanese breakfast back in the day, before, like anyone knew who either of them were. But 2013, they released an album called The Albatross,

which features the, you know, fourth wave hit singles, The Medic and Rory. And, you know, they become, like, one of the main players in the Emo Revival. They put out an album called Dealer in 2015, which gets famously panned by Anthony Fontano. And then in 2018, they put out an album called Near My God, which is what I would call like the best album of any genre of the past five years. Just the art rock masterpiece gets them out of the realm of emo and to the more kind of, like, radiohead TV on the radio. Like, this album was like really, really.

popular amongst like my 30 something friends who stopped you know reading pitchfork in college and like have just kind of lost their like just stopped following the narrative um but they after three years they're back with a new album called draw down the moon um and they're down from a five piece to a three piece I also want to give a shout out to uh the uh interview I did with them for uprocks which is which ran yesterday uh take a read of that to give you a little bit of background about they're kind of a quintessential Indycast band and that they've had like a lot of bad luck in their time like van accidents getting $30,000 with a gear stolen

critical indifference just a sense of a band not being as big as their fans believe they should be and I think this record is a very interesting it's a very interesting move to make at this point because on a superficial level it might sound like them just saying fuck it, we're just going straight pop now.

Like we're no longer interested in courting like the like the hip like credible sort of like they say in the interview. It's like we wish we could get signed by 4A.D. but it's probably not going to happen. So this album, the lead singles people have compared it to passion pit. Some people have compared to like say group love or of monsters and men. And what I find interesting about this album is that on one level, it is kind of a, I don't want to say a bid for like pop, because that's every indie band does that. It's like, yeah, man, we really allowed ourselves to embrace our love of Carly Ray Jepson and like Taylor Swift.

But this kind of goes for more of a late aughts, early 2010's festival indie sort of sound, which to me is like the most daring move. because it's not like Limp Biscuit or Offspring where we have enough distance from it, where we could, even if like you didn't like those bands, you could kind of say, well, it was popular and they had some bangers. And it's not recent enough where they can sound like completely modern. So they're in this kind of weird, weird like weird valley of nostalgia, which I love this style of music. I think it's an incredibly interesting and catchy record. but I also think it puts them in a position to get absolutely slaughtered in the critical realm, which is exciting from a critical standpoint,

because I can't think of the last record that really put itself out there on a limb like this. I mean, I'm very curious what you think. Because I love this band. People know that, which is why we're talking about this, even though it's definitely not on the level of Billy Eilish. But I'm just very curious about like the boxing agnostic or foxing, fence sitters. Well, I have to say that I was dreading talking about this album for a while, because I know how much you love foxing. And I have to say, I like foxing. I like near my god.

I like their other records. This is a band that I'm inclined to cheer for for all the reasons that you just said. I think that they're a talented band. They've had some bad luck. So yeah, I cheer for them to build an audience and to get outside, I guess, the emo niche, and reach more, I guess, regular indie listeners because I think there's a lot of people that would dig this band that might not otherwise know who they are. But I have to say, like, for the longest time, like, I had trouble getting into this record.

Yeah. Because I've had it for about three or four months, and every time I would put it on, I just was not responding to it. And I had to say that it wasn't until, like, the last week that it really started to come into focus for me. And now, you know, I quite like the record. It's interesting to me that I didn't really like it at first because I think it is a pretty approachable record in a lot of ways.

The thing I'll say about Foxing is that I feel like in some ways they remind me of one of my favorite bands, The National, and that I think, well, in this respect, I think the National, like, I love their records, but I think they are prone to overthinking their music. they'll write a really good song and they'll rework it and rework it forever. And sometimes in the process of that, it gets a little overcooked. And you hear it on the record and it doesn't totally work and then you hear it live and it sounds way better. That's not true of every national record,

but it's true of some of them. And I think with Foxing, there's a similar phenomenon where they almost are trying too hard at times and they're thinking a little too much. And I wonder if this, like, this record and even moments of near my god would have been better served if like there just wasn't as much going on you know if it had been simplified a little bit uh it just presented like in a little bit

more of a straightforward manner i i feel like it would maybe hit with more people now having said that i appreciate in theory this band's ambition and that they're not just taking the easy way you know i i love that about bands and it's something i really admire about them but you know you talk about their bad luck, I think sometimes they make it harder on themselves than they need to. And I wonder if that will be a problem with this record, which again, I think is like a quite strong indie record. And I would tell people that if it doesn't connect with you right away, to be patient with it. Because for me, I feel like that paid off eventually. But it took a while. It was not a record I heard the first time or even the fifth time and liked. You know, I had to listen

this record about a dozen times before I really started to connect with me. And that's a sign of some of the best records ever made, by the way. I love records that are like that. But yeah, I don't even know if that's a criticism of them as much as an observation. I think that they overthink it sometimes, and it makes it more difficult for them than it needs to be. Because I think they write songs that are really good and are the kind of things that, again, if you like this kind of indie music, this sort of big, ambitious, anthemic indie music,

this is something that should be up your alley. Yeah, and I think that, like, you've levied a criticism that, like, the band will admit to a lot, which is that specifically on their first two records, they would, they're very ornate, very, um, detailed, like, almost very, very soft in a way. And you would see them live. And I'll just, like, say, I've said this before in any cast like, Foxinger or like, easy they're they're the best live band working in like in the like in that level of band like emo revival or otherwise like every time i've seen them they've just completely blown

whoever they're playing with off the stage and they've played with like some pretty impressive bands and you know they would say like fans would come up to them it's like got like how come you guys don't sound like that on the album and you know i think with this album it'll be like super interesting to see how it comes off a because they're finally getting back to playing live after like doing this whole album remotely. And secondly, it's these are a lot of, a lot of like, there's like a lot of electronic elements, a lot of synthesizers. Like people are saying, it's like pretty passion pit.

It's similar to MGMT. And I mean, I'm just curious like what you think of like that era in general because I think this record to a certain degree is going to, you know, have people talk. There's definitely a song on here that reminds me of Cold War Kids. But, and it's like, do I like these songs because they're Foxing? Or was I unnecessarily biased against, like, say, Cold War Kids or group love or any of those bands because they didn't come out of the emo revival or whatever? It's like, are these bands, like, subject to a reappraisal the same way, like, Jim Blossoms or, like, sponge were? Well, yeah, I mean, I think so because there's a whole generation of people that,

were 14 when those albums hit. Yeah. They're going to look at them differently than someone who was 24. You know, I think if you were 24 when those albums hit, a lot of people heard, you know, MGMT or Passion Pit as like an echo of what they feel was better music in the early part of the odds. And this is a pattern that, of course, continues over and over and over again. I mean, we were talking about the 90s before, you know, and how, you know, There's a generation of people that were 14 when significant other came out, and they don't

like hearing people that grew up on Nirvana Records, trash, you know, limp biscuit, because they feel like, well, this was something that meant a lot to me when I was young, and you were too old to appreciate it. So I feel like there's probably a generation like that with this record. You know, I mean, the thing with Foxing is, you know, you were saying, like, this is the best album of any genre in the last five years. Near My God. Like I just want to make that.

I'm sorry, Near My God. Near My God is the best album of the last five years. You know, best album of any genre last five years. And I know like for people who love this band, you know, there is that kind of hyperbole. You know, people feel really passionate about it. And I've interviewed the band too. And they are taking big swings. You know, you mentioned Radiohead.

I know like when they were talking about Near My God, they were like that to like, well, this is like our okay computer. Like this is what we're trying to do with this record. And in a way, I feel like that's, you know, that's, great. I wonder to what degree that hurts them a little bit because it creates this level of stakes where if it isn't a masterpiece or if they don't break through, it almost seems like a failure. When in reality, these are like really good records and it doesn't have to be a masterpiece or it doesn't need to take over the world or get like a 9.0 from pitchfork to be validated.

I mean, I think it's really good for what it is. I just wonder if the band, and maybe some of their fans, and I guess I'm grouping you in this, if you just, like, raise the stakes too high, where it's, like, hard for them to kind of appreciate just, like, what they've done. Yeah, I'm, like, Moby in this situation where people are, like, reacting against, like, bi hyperbole. But actually, they bring that up in the interview that I did with them, where it was, like, they, I mean, they say, like, you know, critics such as yourself would always talk about,

like, how, you know, like, how much bigger they should be. in a way that like that made them kind of not appreciate the success they do have because whenever they talk about like how difficult it is for them to sustain as a band financially or whatever I think to myself like this is a really popular like popular in the sense of like indie rock like they are they're like very successful and so yeah I do wonder sometimes and I think this a lot with a lot of the bands that I talk about like whether I do them a disservice by being so passionate about them. But I think this record, in a weird way,

despite the fact that the sound is much more pop-focused, I think it's a more internal lower-stakes record. It doesn't feel like it's bearing the weight of the world on its shoulders the same way near my God did. And also, it's self-produced. They started their own label. I think in a weird way, this is like a pop pivot, but like for Foxing fans.

Yeah. And again, to go against something I said a little bit earlier, you know, while I do think they overthink things sometimes, I do appreciate the level of craft and the attention that they put into everything that they do. Didn't they make a music video that was like hand-drawn animation? Yeah, rotoscoping. And they spent like 400 hours learning how to do that. Which is just insane.

Again, I think that is a perfect synopsis or microcosm of like who this band is. It's like they put so much work into that. which, you know, they could have just done a performance video or something. You know, it would have been a lot easier. But they went the hard route. And there's something, in some ways you might say that's misguided, but in other way, I feel like that's so admirable. And I appreciate that they do that.

I think the quintessential boxing story is that on the day they released the title track, the guitarist Eric Hudson made like a tweet of like, guys will just remember, like, guys will just have the best time remembering some sports guys. and like it got like 300,000 likes and he would just say like yeah man like this this was like way more popular than any song I could have possibly written so it's like this little dumb tweet that he put out

like I think that was like the quintessential boxing story it's like he accidentally invented remembering some guys and it blew up in the degree they just could not do if they had all like the label resources in the world we've now reached the part of our episode that we call recommendation

corner where Ian and I recommend something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? So there's a new record from a band called Lantlos. I do believe I pronounce it right. There's a kind of a symbol over the O, I'm not quite sure how to pronounce. But, you know, over the past couple years, we've discussed this on Indycast about how, like, deaf tones and hum have become almost like primary influences in the world of indie rock and, like, how cool that is. But this puts me in a position where I'm like, if a band is compared to those, I kind of I don't want to listen to it because so many bands just do the kind of dark and like mony and slow version of that kind of shoegaze. Whereas Lantlose, they're a band that was, I guess, like,

kind of pre-sunbatheather black gaze. And now on this new one, it kind of sounds more like mew or stars by hum or like be quiet and drive. It's like the pop version of those bands. and it's just really interesting to me in a way that a lot of like shoe gaze isn't. It's very pop forward. And also it's kind of an interesting comparison to the new Deaf Heaven record, which is kind of going in a similar direction. Like this just sounds like a metal shoegaze album that was pitched up to like 45 RPM. An album that I imagine I'll be listening to a lot over the past, over the next couple of months.

And, you know, they have a really interesting. catalog as well. They get like way more jazier and darker in the past. So if you like bands like Alsest, if you like bands like, you know, Def Haven's Sunbather, if you like nothing, this is an album that like takes a more interesting

pop look at things. So Lant Lois, the album is Wild Hunt. I know that translates to Wild Dog. So that's my recommendation for this week. That sounds very cool. I'm going to definitely check that out. My album is called No Medium.

It's by a singer-songwriter from Philadelphia named Rosalie. That's Rosalie without an E at the end. It ends with an I. No Medium is her third record. And it includes contributions from people like Matt Barrick, from the Walkman and Robbie Bennett of the War on Drugs. She's also played some shows with the War on Drugs. Like if you're a fan of that band,

you might have seen a cover of Because of the Night, the Patty Smith song that they played at a homecoming show in 2019. And Rosalie sings like, Patty Smith parts of that song. But the most crucial contributor to this record is the David Nance group, who I've talked about this band on this show before. Big fan. They put out one of my favorite records of last year, Staunch Honey, really great band,

and they are the backing group on this record. And it's a great combination because Rosalie is this really insightful singer-songwriter, has a great folk sound, reminds me a little bit of like Sandy Denny. or I know she's also been compared to people like Linda Ronstadt as well. I think I heard like a Chrissy Hine comparison because she has kind of like a nice low, sultry sounding voice. So you have that combination backed by this band that it just sounds,

it's like big muscular guitars. They sound like Neil Young and Crazy Horse. I mean, that's the most obvious comparison to make, but it's obvious for a reason. So really great songs and just like a really crunchy instrumentation in the background. And a friend of mine told me about this record earlier this week. This album actually came out in May. But I feel like I discovered it at the right time because it's just a perfect early August type album.

So if you're having a barbecue this weekend, you're going to be hanging outside. Definitely throw this album on. I think it's going to really hit the spot. Again, it's called No Medium. The artist is Rosalie. Yeah, and definitely check that out. We've now reached the end of this episode of Indiecast, so thank you so much for listening.

We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.