Indiecast - "Bon Iver" 10th Anniversary, Plus: Lorde, Jimmy Eat World, Bo Burnham Blowback

Episode Date: June 11, 2021

This month marks the tenth anniversary of Bon Iver’s self-titled sophomore album, which solidified Justin Vernon’s project as an indie rock powerhouse, and eventually earned him a handful of Grammys (see above). To celebrate ten years of this pivotal record, Steve and Ian are putting aside their opposing views on Bon Iver to spend an episode reflecting on the outfit’s catalogue and lasting impact.In the decade since the release of Bon Iver, Justin Vernon has made a name for himself as one of the least predictable and most adventurous artists of recent memory, with a series of ultimate “grower” albums that end up shifting listeners’ tastes, that somehow exist in the same timeline as recent massive collaborations with Taylor Swift. This week, Steve and Ian discuss whether “Woods” is one of the most important indie rock songs of the 21st century, and how much Vernon’s association with Kanye actually accounts for his credibility in the indie world.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Steve is digging Australian indie-pop outfit The Goon Sax’s forthcoming LP Mirror II, while Ian is plugging Militarie Gun’s new EP All Roads Lead To The Gun.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we will be looking at the music and career of Bon Iver. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? So I'm just going to be real with our audience.

Like, for the foreseeable future, this is where I'm going to talk about billions. I'm on season three. apparently. Oh, this is great. Yeah, so I'm about 60% of the way there. So sometime maybe in September we'll be able to switch subjects. But I bring it up not just because it's just got the best needle drops in the game. I've really been re-familiarizing myself with some of the classics of mid-2010s indie rock. There's a scene where they go to a high concept strip club and Mitzkees, your best American girl is playing. It's amazing. Yes. But I think the bigger influence is the way, that it's kind of gotten me to think about every interaction I have on a daily basis.

It's like a series of convoluted scheming. And so here, just hear me out with this. So people are you like Paul Giamatti or are you Bobby Ascorrod? And so this is the question I need the audience to answer because if you're a loyal Indycast listener, you remember last week that Steve kind of floated the idea of which one of us is going to get canceled first. And then this week, if you follow us on Twitter, which I assume is an Indycast listening, you probably do. I made some remarks about certain songs on Radiohead's Annesiac that I'm not a huge fan of. Oh, yeah. That's right. And so Steve put it out, hey,

I'm looking for a new Indycast host, by the way. Ha, ha, ha. We all had a good laugh about it. And so it might have been a joke. And then you take those. It's unclear if it's a joke. You take those, I thought so too. And then I saw today. day on our outline where we go over we go over what we're going to talk about and Steve knows

I'm going to be the first person to talk the first thing you see is should we talk about Lord's album cover? And so this is, you play, Atlanta trap.

You picked the wrong time to play 4D chess with me. You know, I'm going to take a Brian Copelman type line here and say, I guess I'm Paul G. Jamesick, I'm Bobby Fisher in the Matrix.

You know, just one of these very, very, elaborate metaphors they use on this show. So I'm on to you. So that's our dynamic. You're the Giamadi and I'm the Damien Lewis. Is that going to be our thing? Yeah, because like I said in the last episode, you're the one who's accumulated far more success in this writing game. And I'm just, and I'm the, and I'm like the person who's like, I don't know, motivated by some sort of bizarre principle. I'm like willing to blow the equivalent of 27 million cred dollars to take you down. I don't know. You know,

I didn't think that far through. Maybe I'm not Paul Giamati. I mean, you know, because the Lord album cover, we don't have to talk about this very much. It is, I mean, I joked about this on Twitter that being middle-aged music critics the way we are, two guys in our 40s, it is a little awkward to talk about this album cover because I remember I saw it. And my first thought was, that's a really good album cover. It's very striking. You know, it like sticks in your mind.

But then you're like, I'm really going to go in depth. talking about this album cover in social media, I feel like I am setting myself up here for just like quote tweet hell. If I talk about this cover, which by the way, if you haven't seen it, look it up. I mean, is that Lord on the cover or is that like a vintage photo of somebody else? I have no idea. It's unclear, but it's someone's, someone's ass basically. Yeah, yeah.

It actually. Of the album break, right in your face. Yeah, and that's really all there is to it. You know, it's like, it's interesting because, like, on the one hand, it definitely is a conversation piece. And on the other, it's like, how do I have a conversation about this? So who... How do I talk about this in an analytical way where I'm not objectifying it in some way? Because, again, when I say, like, I saw it, I thought, yeah, that is going to be a cover that people remember.

Yeah. You know, most album covers are forgettable. That is, you know, just from, like, a, what... a design standpoint. I thought, like, that's a striking album cover. But, yeah,

you can't really go in depth too much with that without looking, like a creeper or something. Lord, Lord is putting the male music critics on blast. This is, like, great sciops.

Yeah. Against the male music critic, industrial complex. It's a very billions-type move, you know? It's like, it's a form, everything is billions.

Like, that's, like... She's the Gi-a-Mati. Yeah. We're the Damian Lewis, I think, in this scenario. Yeah, gosh. She's getting us with this big time. Yeah, but here's the thing, though, man,

like, if you want to, like, really get me interested in an album cover, like, don't, you know, putting legs on the, like, or an ass on the album cover, like, if she really wanted to entrap me, she would have put, like, some barren Midwestern, like, a picture or, like, a house on the cover. So she doesn't know her audience. Yeah, we'll see.

Yeah, I wanted to ask you something, because there was some controversy in your corner of the internet. Oh, Lord. This week. with involving a record, I think your favorite record of all time, clarity. Yes. Zed.

It's not, not the Zad album. I don't know. I don't know if that joke landed with Steve. Once again, you got to know your audience. Okay, there's marshmallow. There's Zed. And then there's Jimmy Eat World in the three spot for you. There it is.

And Pitchfork did this Sunday review on the record, which, you know, pitchfork does this every week. It's like a long review really goes in depth, usually about a record that they're paying homage to. I don't really think they've ever done like a record in that slot that got a negative review. They did. They did.

They did? Yeah, I believe it was 40 ounces to freedom. They did a sublime one that they gave like more or less a negative review of. I know they did blood sugar sex magic. They did, but that was like cautiously positive. Same with, like a 7.1. which I think I'm not a chili peppers fan really, but that record, I do have a sauce spot for.

Oh, of course. I would kick that up to it. You know, it's funny. Get that one in eight. It's funny because like when you mentioned the Lord album cover I saw on Twitter, someone compared it to a screenshot from the Give It Away video. So it all ties together. There you go.

All in time for the 30th anniversary. But anyway, so Pitchfork does this Sunday review of clarity. And there's this discussion that's going on about the original review that Pitchfork ran. which is no longer on the site, it got a 3.5, originally, I think, right? That is 3.5. There's a couple things I want to ask you about here, but the first thing I think to talk about is, because this leads, we're going to talk about this a little bit later. We got a listener question that's somewhat related to this issue.

But this thing about publications, black-holing reviews from the past. Yes. That may be no longer adhere to their standards of professionalism, which I would, assume was the case here. Like a lot of those early pitchfork reviews, they don't really fit with the style of the website now. Yeah.

And I feel like you and I are probably on the same page with this. I'm not a fan of that. I don't like it when sites do that. I understand the thinking because pitchfork, I'm sure, is thinking that people are going to Google this album and they're going to see this original review and think that this is what they're going to judge the site based on this review,

and they don't really want that to happen. Yeah. But I really like going on, like, the Rolling Stone website and reading reviews of, like, Led Zeppelin 2, where they totally shit on it. Yeah. You know, to me, that's part of, like, history. I like seeing the evolution that happens in taste.

And I wonder if we're going to be losing that now because those old reviews that maybe people are ashamed of now are so easy to get rid of. Yeah. There's no hard copy of it. Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the things that happened, and I think this is, like, actual thing is that when when they migrated to like a new website or a CMS or whatever a lot of

the reviews got lost and actually if you even look at like some of the like when I've like done research or I've had the hyperlinked to reviews I wrote back in like 2015 or 16 before the migration like you'll see like so much of the copy is just completely messed up it's like almost illegible so that's a part of it but yeah I mean I I kind of like the earliest review. Like, I mean, I was a reader of it back then, and I saw, like, they just would completely shit on, like, The Promise Ring and Jimmy Eat World, and I'd get, like, super mad, but the style of writing really appealed to me.

And also, one of the things that they don't bring, no one's brought up is that this is not the first time that they've, um, re-reviewed an album that, uh, got, you know, shit on originally. The first one, I remember this a few years back, uh, they did a Sunday review of Bell and Sebastian's, the boy with the Arab strap, which got 0.8 back in 1999 on the original... What was the deal with that? I have no fucking clue. I mean, you know, if you're feeling sinister, I'm sure...

I don't know if that would have predated pitchfork, but I'm sure the original OG pitchfork people would have loved that. Oh, yeah. No, but it was like a very bizarre dislike for that one specific album. But, you know, in general, it's like, how do I... I love reading the old Rolling Stone reviews. I love seeing the old spin ones. And, you know, they're kind of hard to archive. I don't know if, like, all of them are online.

Specifically, if it was in print or whatever. But, yeah, I do think that here's what I like about the old review. Like, I think nowadays, and we talk about this a lot, how there isn't the same sort of, I don't know, divisive approach to writing for a number of reasons. But when, you know, people would say like, oh, they were just being unnecessarily mean or, you know, they were just being snarky for the bit snake of being snarky. Like, look, I know a lot of the people who reviewed Jimmy World albums back then, you know, whether it's Ryan Shriver, Mark Richardson, even guys like Rob Mitchum. I see you out there, Rob. And, you know, Mark Hogan. It's like, I know for a fact. They really think that album is a 3.5, you know? It's like there's no hedging. There's no, well, I don't know. our audience is going to think we might need to be a little bit more careful. I think that there's this, I don't know, a lack of self-consciousness that I appreciate about

those early times. And you know what? It's a lot freer back then. Yeah. You felt like you could write and not have a thousand people jump down your throat immediately. Yeah, which is, you know, which has a good end bad thing. Yeah, it's a good bad thing. Yeah, it's a good way.

It's good when people jumped on your throat because sometimes you need to be checked. Yes. You know, you need people to say like, hey, wait a second. You're crossing the line. And sometimes as a writer, you have to be big enough to recognize when it's good to be called out. But yeah, I'm with you. I miss that sense of freedom a little bit. And also the idea that, like, it was harder back then to know what other people thought of a record.

Yeah. You couldn't just go to Twitter and get a consensus. feeling pretty quickly. Sometimes you would hate a record that a lot of other people liked. And you had no way of knowing that until your review was published. I have issue with

the idea that, you know, that what's going on right now is inherently superior as far as, like, a writing method. I mean, I think things evolve and they improve, but when you look at, like, a lot of the stuff that people are like, oh, it's so snarky and, like, troublesome.

Like, that sort of style of writing in the early internet days was like a response to, you know, the Rolling Stone always giving five stars to like Mick Jagger albums or something like that. It was like a time where it was a shift away from what seemed like a pretty locked in, like hierarchical sort of thing where, you know, like there was a lot more connection between, you know, the artists and the publication. And, you know, this was kind of rebellious. And now it shifted away from that. I guarantee in 20 years or even 10 years, there will be a aspect of writing right now that will age extremely poorly. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I would say that pitchfork, by and large, is much better written.

Oh, yeah. Oh, totally. 20 years ago. But to your point, there's also conformity to music writing now. There's not these stylists that you had back then. A lot of whom were not good stylists. They were trying to, you know, be Hunter S. Thompson, like a lot of them, or, you know, some other, you know, person from the new journalism. Yeah. You know, there was a lot of that going on, and a lot of it was obnoxious. But there was a sense of freedom back then, just because the Internet was a different place. And there weren't as many people on there.

It was harder to mobilize big groups of people, like, in mobs to, like, go against someone who was, like, the main character on the Internet that day. So it was just different back then. So, yeah, you know, maybe it's better overall now, but yeah, there's some things from the past that I miss. There's one thing I want to ask you, though, as a spokesman for emo nation, because one thing I see a lot in your corner of the internet is there seems to be a bit of a chip on people's shoulders about the media and music critics and how they've written about, like, that kind of music, you know, emo, punk, whatever. Which I totally understand. I totally understand reading the original review of clarity and being super annoyed that this album that's considered a classic in that world. It became a classic. Anyway, this album that's beloved.

Yes. Being shit on in a not particularly thoughtful way. I totally get that. But Pitchfork comes back 20 years later and they do put out a thoughtful review. You know, that's well written and well considered. And yet I still see people who are mad about the review from 20 years ago. And I'm just wondering, like, what is the remedy then? All right.

You know, like, if you're still going to be mad about this review, well, it's like things have changed. You know, there's been progress. It's like, are you still going to be mad about the thing? Yeah. And this idea that, like, well, they're just doing it now because it's more profitable to, like, say nice things about Jimmy Eat World. No, it's not. That's a silly argument. Like, let's not make that argument.

I just wonder, because again, I get the initial feeling of annoyance, but when the same place comes back and they actually remedy that and you're still mad, like, what do you want? Like, what do you want that? Well, I mean, one of the guys who's definitely mad is Jimmy Eat World's drummer. I mean, like, I know the guy. You clap back. You clap back at them. I know, I know the guy pretty well.

And he, like, he definitely gives. He likes to talk shit. Like, Zach... And he gets a pass because he's in the band. I understand his resentment because he's in the band. He's probably like, hey, too little too late. Yeah, exactly. So I...

Maybe you get a pass for... If you're in the band, it's a different thing. Yeah, but as far as like the, you know, the emo nation people or whatever, I mean, uh... Look, I think that it's really hard to overstate, like, the effect that that era had on the perception of like emo music. And, you know, things have changed, sort of. I still think there is a sense that it's not really taken seriously.

But, you know, at the same time, I think that kind of fuels. Still, there's still that feeling. Because, look, I'm in a corner of the internet where a lot of things don't even get reviewed ever. And aren't even close to being considered. I look at mainstream indie sites. Stereo gum put an emo record at the top of their mid-year album list. You know, like, I'm not seeing that for other genres of music. You know, I feel like if you still feel like this music's being disrespected, I don't know.

I'm not seeing that. I feel like at this moment of time, there's like a lot of writers at these sites. You know, with you at the head, you know, you're the godfather of modern emo music writing. You're going to make a lot of people mad by saying that. Well, that's fine. But, you know, a lot of people fall in your footsteps with that. I mean, so at this point to still carry a grudge with that, I feel like feels like a little misguided.

I feel like maybe it's time to get over that. Yeah. And also, if anything else, this review kind of answers a question. People have been asking me for like the past decade. It's like, yo, how did this get like a 7.8? It's like, well, if you want to compare any, everything to like clarity, which is indeed my favorite album of all time, we're on an 8.6 scale. So next time you see.

like my number one out of the year or whatever, getting a 7-8 or an 8.0, just remember, oh, yeah, Jimmy World's Clarity and also the first American football album. Like, that's the scale that we're on. So at the end of the day, this really helped out. You know, this is the direction going forward. I saw someone compare the new Death Heaven single to American Football. That's right, baby.

I like that single. Yeah. I wasn't sure what to think of it. Oh, I am so stoked for this album. It has been a long time where there was the potential for people. I mean, you want to talk about like people, like emo people, holding grudges and being mad. Like, just wait until we have like the death have an album conversation.

Like those people, like any sort of like not metal thing is a tremendous affront to their entire identity. I am stoked for this one. I remember I was in a bar in Appleton, Wisconsin, maybe 2014. This is a whole steady song waiting to happen here. Well, I was in this bar. It was like a trivia night. And I was wearing a deaf heaven shirt.

And this dude from across the bar pointed at me, and I don't know what he said, but I'm positive he was talking shit about me because of my shirt. Because he could recognize it was a death heaven shirt. And this was like a black shirt with like a gray design on it. And it was like a dark bar. So he would have had to have like radar glasses on to see this shirt. But he was like a true blue metal head. and he's like, this poser over here is wearing a deaf heaven shirt.

And this was like in the wake of Sun Bay. They're getting all that critical love. I want to see that guy when he hears the new deaf heaven record. He's going to, he's going to track me. I don't live in Wisconsin anymore. He's going to get in a car and drive several hours and park outside my house. Like Kobe Bryant, yeah, like Kobe Bryant and Temecula, that whole story. All right, well, let's segue to our mailbag segment here.

And thank you all again for everyone who's written into us. It's always great to hear from our listeners. You can hit us up at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com. Also, thank you to everyone who's left us reviews. Keep them coming. Ian and I get a check for $1,000 for every five-star review. So here at Indycast HQ, we're going to get some hot tubs installed. We're working on getting a private plan.

Yeah, billions. Like, we've been watching a lot of billions. That's right. We're going to have the chop. We're going to have the Indycast chopper. We're going to, yeah, we're going to, like, just buy, like, classic cars and, you know, plots of land in upstate New York. You know, God, I feel terrible. What's the name?

I feel terrible that I can't remember this, but what's the name of Axelrod's? Wags. Wags. Wags. Wags. I was going to call him Gail Betaker. Yeah. I was going to call him Gail Betaker on Breaking Bad.

But what range, too, because Gail Betiker is this super sweet guy. And then he plays wags. He's like a huge sleaze ball, although he has... With a heart of gold. Exactly. He has a tender side to him. Let's get to our mailbag here. And this is a critical email.

We haven't gotten a critical email in a long time. But I wanted to do this one because we got a couple of emails about the Bo Burnham conversation that we had last week. not a lot of I mean maybe there were a lot of fans of that but like in our mailbag there were some upset people about that conversation

and this was one of the people and I think it airs some thoughtful criticisms which I don't really agree with but I think they are valid so let's air them out this comes from Graham in Toronto

Graham thanks for writing in Hi Steve and Ian devoted listener of the podcast here however Steve I think you really missed the mark with your quick judgment and dismissal of Bo Burnham's inside last week. That, of course, is his Netflix special, and I said I watched it for 10 minutes, and I shut it off, and then we clowned on it for about 5 or 10 minutes. Yes.

In our episode last week, in case you missed it, as someone who has never even heard of Bo Burnham before watching it, and then I was blown away by it after I saw the special, I think it merits more than 10 minutes of viewing before casting it aside or deciding that it is too depressing or too soon to reflect on this past year and a half of life during COVID. In fact, if you give a time, I think you'd find that much of the subject matter was actually not related to the pandemic, but a clever and unique take about modern life in the social media age. It just happens to have been filmed during the pandemic lockdown. The words COVID and pandemic or lockdown are never actually used. I actually think people could stumble on this Netflix special

and 10 or 20 years and not even associated with the pandemic. But even if it is obliquely commenting on this time, why is that a problem? Would you ignore the CSNY song, Ohio in 1971, because it was too topical? Well, I wasn't alive in that year. I can answer that question. Anyway, I think watching it and deciding you hate it

and thinking it isn't funny is completely fair, but I think watching 10 minutes and dismissing it as weird out in a depressive phase to your listeners isn't up to your usual review standards. I was particularly surprised by this comment due to your unabashed love of all things Father John Misty. This is directed at me because your love of Father John Misty is not unabashed.

Is it even abashed? Yeah. Do you have an abashed love? I don't know if I've ever heard the word abashed, you know? It's like the word disgruntled. I've never heard the word gruntled before. I mean, in this context, I would assume that it would mean that you love it with restrictions

since unabashed is, you have no restrictions. Yeah. Anyway, while Burnham doesn't have anything resembling the vocal chops of Josh Tillman, my guess is anyone who stands for that album would have a similar outlook to inside, or at least be open to it. Anyway, just think you should give it more of a chance before judging it so harshly. All the best, Graham from Toronto. So, Graham, thank you for writing in.

Like I said, a few people wrote in to make this complaint. One person said that he specifically didn't want to be in the mailbag. So I didn't read his. letter, although he said that I sounded like his dad in his email, which I thought was kind of a, I thought that was a pretty good burn, actually. But anyway, I have thoughts on this,

but I was wondering you first. How would you respond to Graham's thoughts on what we said about Boehbren? Well, first off, like, I think Graham, first off, thanks for writing in. But I would have to say that, like, the idea that 10 minutes is not enough time to really absorb what Bo Burnham is trying to get across it. Most people would say,

like, I tried to watch 10 seconds and I just turn it off immediately. I tried to watch 30 seconds and I turn it off immediately. Like this, yeah, like a lot of the, you know, the people who kind of share our opinions, like they are just immediately like, nope, not for me. And so the fact that Steve got 10 minutes in, I want to give him credit for that. No, because like, a lot of stuff like this, like, okay, can I get that initial gag reflex? Because, like, look, my history is that I worked in, you know, comedy. I worked in talent management in around 2009 and 10 when Bo Burtum was first starting to blow up. And, you know, you could see the comedy landscape changing to funny or die videos and musical comedy.

I still have PTSD from that time. Like, when I see someone and you just kind of know, like, it's like a sixth sense of when a comedian is about to burst into song. I just have this, it's like a fight or flight gag reflex that it takes everything for me to just not immediately turn it off. And so I don't, you know, I empathize with people who feel the same way. But, you know, as far as this thing goes, like I saw our friend from the ringer Justin Sales called it the Hamilton for the terminally online. and I think actually this is the sort of thing you might enjoy if you're less online.

When I watched this stuff, and I gave it a good, I gave the old college try, it reminds me of seeing those, like those topical SNL skits that make the rounds. You know, you say like, well, what about a song like Ohio? No, we weren't alive for Ohio. But also, there was no such thing as being terminally online, you know, in that time. And so when I see this stuff now, it's like, it's not that it's mentioning COVID. It's not that it's mentioning like pandemic or whatever,

but it's like I've seen this sort of topic being discussed ad nauseum for like the past five years. And so when you couch it in musical comedy, like it's just a personal taste that I can just not get over. It's like when people try to convince me that I'm going to like proto-martre, you know, it's like, oh no, you got to listen to the lyrics. And like the bio is like really cool too. You get a sense of like what they're really about. It's like no, I just really, my personal taste of talky post-punk, I just can't really get past that. And so it's, yeah, to me, this is like not like Father John Misty, which I've seen. It's not like the 1975, which I've also seen.

And I'm like to the 1975, what you might be to Father John Misty. It just seems to me like a Saturday night live skit. And it's just like. It feels tired in a way that like I just, I also, I just, people would also say it's like, oh, you should love Hamilton. You're, you love history. You love rap. It's like, yeah, that's the reason I can't. It's like when you put those things together and like the musical part just does not add anything for me.

It's like, I honestly think if he were like just to talk about these things as like a normal person, perhaps I would enjoy it more. Yeah, you know, and again, I want to thank Graham for writing in, and I want to thank the other people who wrote in that had some problems with that. We welcome feedback. It doesn't always have to be compliments. If you don't like something that we say on the podcast, I want to hear about it, and maybe we'll talk about it. We'll respond to you. And I want to respond to this because, again, multiple people brought it up. And I said a couple things I wanted to say.

Number one, the Father John Misty thing, you know, I've seen other people bring this up. I don't really see the comparison other than. it being a person with a beard who is singing topical songs with funny lyrics. I mean, which I guess might be enough for people to make the comparison. I don't really hear that. I was actually surprised to see people talk about that in our inbox, but it's an interesting comparison. As far as the 10 minutes thing, you know, in a way I feel like I brought that up as a caveat

for my opinion. You know, like I wanted to divulge the full context for. for what I was thinking about this special. Instead of just saying I watched it and I didn't like it, I said I watched it for 10 minutes, which I feel like is my cue to the audience to take my opinion about this specific special with a grain of salt.

It's like, well, he didn't like it, but he did only watch it for 10 minutes. So maybe I should take that in a consideration when I'm considering how seriously to take his opinion on this specific special. To me, really, I just wanted to use, use that special as a jumping off point for talking about the larger issue, which, again, is my aversion at this moment to art that addresses the pandemic because of just where I'm at in my life

right now, it's not really something I want to reflect on. Maybe in a year, maybe in five years, I'll be in that place, but I'm in the place right now where I want to get out of the pandemic. I don't want to go back. I don't want art that drags me back into that. clearly there are a lot of people who feel differently and they they want to do that and and god love them you know enjoy this special as you will but to me that was what i wanted to talk about and why i thought that this special was a good jumping off point for that you know the ohio example again like i said i wasn't alive when that song came out it's a song that i came to appreciate because i heard it on classic rock radio 20 years after kent state and i like neil young's guitar riff so maybe you're right and in 20 years years, people will discover this Bo Burnham special and they'll be like, I don't even, I wasn't even live during the pandemic, but I like the songs.

Yeah, but I'm going to choose to be a hater now. It feels good to be a hater right now. Maybe if 20 years from now we're still doing this, Graham, like, writes in, it's like, hey, remember what you said about, uh, Bo Burnham special? How you feel now? And you know what? Like, at that point, we'll cross that bridge and we get to it. But I just had this visceral, like, my God, like, can you imagine the 10-year anniversary pieces on 2020 albums? Like, oh, man.

Oh, God. Well, it'll be interesting. I want to hear what people who, again, weren't alive at the time think about the art. It would be interesting to get their perspective. We don't have the baggage that all of us who lived through it did. I have to say, too, that, you know, regarding the Ohio example,

if I were at Ken State or if my friend had been killed by one of the National Guard people, maybe I wouldn't like Ohio. Yeah. Maybe that song would hit too close to home, in the same way that for me, you know, thinking about the pandemic, you know, this is something we all went through. And we all struggled with it in different ways. And I just wanted to address that on the show. I think that for me personally, I don't want to go to that dark place right now.

I'm just not there. And I'm not saying that in a broad sense that other people, I acknowledge other people feel differently. But just for me personally, it's not something. that's appealing. So, you know, one of the fun things about this show is that Ian and I can talk informally about things and we're not writing think pieces about everything. And sometimes talking normally about something means that you give something a shot and then you bail on it after 10 minutes because you can't take it anymore. And again, take that with a grain of salt. You know, I'm trying to be as open with you guys as I can be. And you can hear me say that and go,

well, that's a half-baked opinion because you only listen to it for 10 minutes, and then we can move on from there. But hopefully that suffices as an explanation for those of you out there who didn't like the Bo Burnham take. I apologize. Well, actually, I don't want to apologize. I don't say sorry because I say my life. People are entitled to their opinion, you know, even if it's wrong.

Agree to disagree. Hey, I'll say that one. Has anyone ever said that before? Did I just make that up? No. Okay. Let's move on to the meat of our conversation. We're going to be talking about Bunny Vair in this episode.

And the reason we're talking about Bunny Vare is that it's the 10th anniversary of the second Bunny Vare record, which I'm still confused on the title of this record. Yes. It's called Bunny Vair. I've heard it call it Bunny Vair, Bunny Vair. Let's just call it Bunny Vair once. I mean, because there's this thing with, you know, it's like, is it I comma I? Is it I, I, I? I mean, there's weird things with multiple Bonnie Vair album titles.

But this is a classic record in indie rock. Some people love it. some people hate it, but it is a landmark record. It won Justin Vernon the Grammy for Best New Artist. I believe it also won the best alternative rock album at the Grammys that year. And

it's fair to say that Bonny Verre, again, whether you're a fan or you're not, is one of the most influential artists of modern indie rock. And we're going to parse that influence in this conversation. I should also say that I did a big piece

on Bunny Bear. I wrote about my 25 favorite songs about Bunny Bear and I wrote about 4,000 words on it. I went deep in his career. And I wrote a lot about Wisconsin and O'Clair. And that local connection certainly colors my opinion of his music.

You know, I'll be up front about that bias as well. You and I disagree on Bonnie Bear. I know that you put this record in your top 10. Yeah. I remember, because we talked about this earlier this year, but like, you have, is it fair to say you've soured on Bunny Bear in the last 10 years? Yeah, you know, I just got to like

acknowledge like off the top that I'm going to be fighting from like a defensive crouch in this episode because, you know, it's like this would be what's the, maybe I'm on the defense. I don't know, man. Like this guy's from Wisconsin, so it does get kind of personal. I mean, if you were to like, if we were doing it. But if you're the, if you're the, if you're the Giamati, though, you have the power of the federal government behind you and I'm just poor Bobby Axel. Trying to Stand up against the government. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this would be like if you were to like have an entire episode talking about the Hooters and we danced. I mean, like as a Philadelphia and like that is just so ingrained to my culture. We'd be on the same page with that. Okay.

That's actually a good point. But yeah, with gosh, I remember hearing BoniVeer the second album, LP2, let's call it. Like around 10 years ago this time, I remember being home back in suburban Philadelphia. And my most memorable experience hearing that album was like getting like it was like 95 degrees superhuman. A type of weather I had not experienced in ages, you know, having lived in Los Angeles. And I sat with that album on just like in a towel. I had just been in a pool or something like that and having it like wash over me.

And it just really connected on that level from a sound. experience of just having this sort of humid all-consuming wash. And, you know, the more I listen to it, though, like, it sounds, it sounds like it was recorded in an herbal, a bottle of herbal essences to me. There's like, yeah, it's just got that like really floral, almost cloying sort of production to it where everything's just like coated in reverb and there's like not a second of silence. there's horns in every corner, since in every corner.

And I don't know. Like, that album I could still listen to and enjoy it. Like, I don't know, like, I don't know how I feel about that, that particular album. Like, it can change from minute to minute, depending on my mood. Now, where I think we really disagree is what happened from that point forward, like with 22 a million and I, I, or whatever you want to describe it. but yeah to me it just sounds I'm gonna I'm gonna just call it college rock

in a way that is not quite the typical definition I think if I were like 22 this stuff would absolutely like explode my brain and you know maybe change the way I think about music there is kind of a kid A aspect to both those records where it's like wow they're like completely changing what people do with like syntax with uh you know the vocal processing and things like that but like i don't know nowadays

when i hear it i'm like like token on dope or like that one line from i and i i just hear like the lyrics is kind of unintentionally silly in all like that's kind of the vibe i get from modern bony bear albums but i mean i i know how do you feel about the first record okay so the the one before the the big breakthrough. I mean, For Emma was a big hit, too. Oh, yeah, no. If you go on Twitter,

I'm sorry, if you go on Spotify, I feel like most of his biggest songs are still from that first record. Yeah. Skinny Love, you know, like restacks.

Yeah. A lot of those songs are still, and that record sounds the most conventional compared to the record. Oh, absolutely. I would say, you know,

we were talking about the influence of Bunny Bear. And one thing you can say about Justin Vernon, whether you're a fan or not, and I'm a big fan, I love his catalog. I think each record is a world onto itself in a way that I can't think of. Like, there's not a lot of modern music catalogs that I think you could say that about. But whether you're a fan or not, one thing you can't take away from him is that as far as singer-songwriters go, he's one of the only, and maybe the only, truly innovative artist to work in that sphere in the last, like, say, 15, 20 years. You know, there's been a lot of great singer-songwriters, but they tend to work within the lineage of great singer-songwriters. You hear them and you can say, well, they connect to Bob Dylan, they connect to Johnny Mitchell, Leonard Cohen, what have you.

You can't really do that with Justin Vernon in terms of both the lyrics and the music. Now, you talk about the lyrics, and it is true that he isn't a traditional singer-songwriter and that you can take his lyrics out of his songs and look at them on the page, and they work as poetry or as like a narrative story. He really is operating purely from the perspective of sound and sensation, and using sounds and using words to evoke a feeling rather than telling you what the feeling should be. Like most singer-songwriters, they tell you about. about the breakup they went through.

Justin Vernon writes songs that make you feel what it felt like to go through the breakup. And if you take the lyrics out of the context, in the same way if you took like a bass line out of the song, or you took a synth line out of the song, yeah, it might not work. But I don't think there's any question that, for instance, that first record, you know,

that's considered this great big breakup record. But if you look at the lyrics, I mean, there's not a lot of like literal talking about that. It just evokes the feeling of being broken up. And I think that's an achievement. Yeah. I mean, to operate purely in terms of sound and music that way,

I don't know, to me, it just totally changes what we expect from singer-songwriters. Yeah. Who tend to be much more literal with their songwriting. So that would be the case that would make for him. Yeah, I would say the first record definitely does that. Like, I mean, I can't quote any of the lyrics offhand.

And, like, it's so weird that album sort of, look, I'm just going to, like, that, like, 2007 as a whole was just, I can just write that year off kind of sort of. And really? It's 2007. I was like, I was like, I was there, but I was not there. And so when I went, oh, you mean personally. Oh, personally, yeah. Like, because that album, like, should absolutely be one that I hold dear to my heart as, like, like, I hold dear to my heart as, like, like, like, like, like, I mean personally. like a classic.

Like that is just my sort of style. I mean, music. And when I listen to it now, maybe it's a bit influenced by its, um, the presence in, you know, television and so forth.

It's, it's a little hard to revisit without the baggage. I do enjoy that one. I think a song, like a lump sum, is, you know, extremely evocative in a way that I find that his,

um, subsequent albums are just like kind of cluttered to me. Um, but yeah, I'd say, like that, I got no truck with For Emma Forever ago. I think it is one of the definitive

you know, one of the definitive storylines of you know, indie rock over the past 20 years, I would say. Like the cabin thing will forever be a touchstone to talk about certain music. That's going that's going to be in the first paragraph of his

obit no matter what he does. Like people are going to bring up the cabin being in Northwoods, Wisconsin. And I mean, in a way and I think this is a little bit reductive but there does there is a ring of truth to the idea

that his career has been about getting away from that yeah oh absolutely I mean he's been overt and I think with that record one of the big misconceptions of that record I think when it came out was this idea that Justin Vernon

was this Americana guy who was this paragon of authenticity you know that he's wearing the flannel shirt He's a guitar slinger, the beard. And I think a certain kind of music fan who's really into that idea glommed on to him. Even though, again, when you listen to that record, I think it does a lot of things that aren't really traditional. That you wouldn't really associate with that kind of songwriting.

But then you get into the Blood Bank EP that comes out. And that has the song Woods on it, which is the first time that he's experimenting with Auto 2. That's like one of the real before and after moments of indie rock. over the past, let's say, 15 years. Like, you look at like that, and that is like AD, like, B.C. into AD. And it's hard to express, I think, to people now, how big of a deal that was, because now it just seems like... Whatever. Yeah, whatever.

But, you know, this is kind of an over-exaggeration, but not really. I mean, it is like the Dylan goes electric of that period, because he took something that, I think, a certain kind of musical purist. took as like a signifier of like crass commerciality you know auto tune people associated i think that was the same year j z released death of auto tune and like that's that was like a rap song where auto tune was like used like you know not if not exclusively like just all the time and so you have this this this dude like using auto tune you know yeah exactly this like he's taking something that yeah like a certain kind of peers to saying,

like, well, this isn't real music. And he's saying, well, no, I'm going to take it into my music

and I'm going to use it in a different kind of way, like where I'm not going to use it to make my voice sound perfect. I'm going to actually use

it to distort my voice. And he's not the first person to do that, like, obviously, like to use it for texture, but in the context of that, it's like,

I can't think of any other person working in the popular indie realm who, you know, did that. I mean, like,

you know, they even beat, like, say, you know. And it does seem like for that kind of artist, again, someone who was slotted in the Americana or folk lane, you know, he was able to transcend that because he was conversant with hip-hop culture, I think, in a way that, like, a lot of indie artists at that time were not. Yeah. And he was able to use stuff like that in an organic way.

And, of course, shortly after that, you know, Woods is the song that gets him into the Kanye West camp. And that really blew him up in a pop sense, I think. don't think he gets the Grammy for Best New Artist. Yeah, I don't know. If he's not with Kanye West, I think that put him in the minds of people who weren't pitchfork readers. You know, you know what I mean? I think that put him on the map in like a pop music sense.

Yeah. And he's now the guy who's doing songs like with Taylor Swift. You know, I mean, he's still putting himself in that kind of context while also being outside the pop world in a lot of ways. But I also think that like his, like his involvement in the hip hop world, it kind of, and I think this happens a lot with artists who, you know, who somehow make that leap is that there's always this presumption that like, oh, this person's like ahead of the curve. And I'm going to like make a comparison. It's really going to piss you off. But like when I hear Boni Bear albums, like the most recent ones, I hear it not altogether different than like James Blake, you know, where.

it's like... That's a natural comparison, I think. I mean, James Blake was influenced by Bonnie Vare. Yeah. And I think, you know... For sure. And it's sort of like, oh, man, like, rather than thinking, like, I don't know, man, like, maybe this... You know, maybe this, he's, like, he's kind of gone off the deep end with this stuff.

It's like, no, man. Like, trust me, like, you know, like, ASAP Rocky thinks this is an amazing song. So, like, and you kind of have to, like, play along with it in the way that, like, I don't think you would have if, you know, he was just a guy continuing to, like, make, make the same music, but not as ensconced in the greater pop sphere. Like, you kind of have to, like, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. And I find myself doing that less and less. I listen to I, I, I, I, this morning, uh, just to get myself ready for this episode. And there parts of me, he's like, oh, this is interesting with sound. And, you know, I could see where the knee-jerk reaction

to it. I'm like, this brilliant is coming through, but I feel the same way I do about like James Blake. Yeah, I wanted to ask you something about, because we've talked about on our show numerous times about this shift that happened in the early 2010s from the traditional indie rock aesthetics being derived from punk and like 80s underground music to more of like a pop aesthetic. Yeah. You know, coming into like, you know, 20, like.

11, 12, 13. And in this regard, too, I feel like Justin Vernon was ahead of the curve. Because when you listen to that second record, you know, the most controversial song at the time was the song. It's the song at the end of the record, Beth Rest. Which when people heard it, and I put myself in this camp, I was a reactionary against that song in the moment. And I love that song now. But, you know, people heard that song. And they compared Bonnie Ver.

to Bruce Hornsby in a way that it was intended to be like a self-evident insult. Of course, he should be insulted by that. And of course, the years go on and Justin Vernon actually ends up absorbing Bruce Hornsby into Bonny Verre. He plays on the last Bonny Verre record, I-I. There's a collaboration between Vernon and Hornsby. I love Bruce Hornsby too. So I'm pro that. again Justin and I come from Wisconsin

We're both raised on album-oriented rock radio I think you can't underestimate The influence of that on You know, Gen X Wisconsin people But anyway, I'm curious Do you Is that part of your aversion to him in a way That he was in a way like a

Like a midwife For Bruce Britsman transition Bruce Hornsby? Not really I think my problem Or like the 80s rockification of Indy music, which I think is part of the ship that happened in the last decade. I mean, I think my problem with, like, Beth Rest is that, like, on the actual album, it's,

like, the production just seems terrible to me. Like, I have no problem with, I mean, look, that same year, I think I put M83, hurry Upward Dreamy is my number one album. So I'm definitely not inherently against 80s sounding stuff. It's that

am I off base, but because I've been listening to, like, a lot of 80s rock on cassette. And to me, that's what Beth rest sounds like. Yeah. Am I wrong to liken that to like a late stage chill wave type thing? I feel like it has that to me looking back on it. It's not off base.

Like, I think that there's this general sense of, for lack of a better term, vibiness. I think that's in a lot of ways what Boney Bear stood for. Not stood for, but it helped kind of usher into indie rock in the 2010s. I think it's become more like, you know, our friend of the pod, Larry Fitzmaurice, called it vibe generation. And I think you could see Boni Vair as being quite similar, if not similar, along the same lines as like Tame and Polaro or on drugs where it's more about evoking a feeling that is a lot of times based in 80s sounds. You know, I think BoniVare is not a show wave artist. Some of his production is very similar in that it's like very waterlogged and kind of faded. I think it's reflective.

He gets to kind of, it's sort of genius how he gets to play both sides, where he's like seen just as this fulky truth teller just because of his past, but also can play with like pure sound and pure vibes. Like I think if I were to hear like I, I or 20 a million in a store or something like that, and I would just hear the pure sonics of it and not lean into it, it would probably sound brilliant to me. in the same way that like, you know, whenever I hear like a war on drugs or a Tame Impala song, like, regardless of like how much I take from the lyrics, like, it sounds great just as background music. And so I think that's kind of where one thing, I think that's kind of where it comes in. Now, we didn't mention, we didn't mention radio head as a comparative point, which I think is like is 22 a million. I mean, obviously people compare that to kid A a lot, right? Yeah, I mean, I think as, as far as a record that comes after a big hit and then takes a dramatic left turn,

22 a million is the modern example of that. Like, a lot of, I mean, artists don't really do that anymore. I mean, what are other examples of that, like, from the last 10 years? I can't think of it, but I mean, what I love about Boni Vair and I think maybe the greatest testament to his influence is that in the same way that at the turn of the 21st century, you get like British bands who would be, like, the next great. radio head because they sounded like okay computer or the bends. There is, and we don't talk about this, and I don't think anyone really talks about it in

mainstream music criticism, there, I feel, is this kind of underbelly of artists who sound like Boni Vair, Circa, Forever, or even BoniVeer, BoniVeer. You can just get away with that. You can rack up tens of, there's this, you can rack up like tens of millions of Spotify plays if you sort of sound like that. Have you ever heard of this guy called Novo Amort? Never. All right.

So this guy is like pretty popular. And there are other artists like that as well. It's almost like the the version of like ours. Like, like Novo or more. I'm just going to read off some Spotify playlist. Anchor, 128 million plays, 49 million plays for state lines, 74 million plays for Carrey You.

And this is like, it's almost like ours, that band. That was just like complete ripoff of like the bends. But like when I love, when I heard it. in 2002 like 2001 i thought it was brilliant there is this thriving subculture of bony bear uh sound likes that are just kind of killing it under underneath our view yeah which doesn't surprise me yeah and because in a way he's not making those records anymore yeah and and like those are his most popular records so there's an audience out there that wants bunny bear to just keep making for emma forever ago you know like four or five times and he's not

going to do that. So there's a market out there for someone else to do it. That totally makes sense to me. I think another comparison that I would make with Bonny Verre would be to Wilco. Oh, yeah. Just because I feel like Wilco as this Upper Midwest, you know, musical institution, BoniVair in a lot of ways is like the next iteration of Wilco. And it's interesting to look at how they parallel and converge from one another. And I think the big difference is that Bonny Verr isn't as tied to rock history in the same way that Wilco is. I feel like Bonny Verre in a way is much more embedded in the music of the internet

and like streaming and all that world, which is why I expect those records to age really well. I mean, Wilco, I think those records age really well too. too, but it's just like a different idea. I would expect like a 13 year old to get into Bunny Bear before Wilco. I feel like

there's more connection to like what's going on and youth culture in a way, even though Bunny Bear now is a legacy act. You can draw a line from that band to like a lot of what's going on now in music. And that's why I call it like college rock. Like in the same way people go through a Wilco phase when they're starting to like

expand beyond like what they've heard on the radio or you know, whatever you want to consider the monoculture. Like, I imagine people will have a Boni Bear phase in the same way they have a radio head phase, same way they have like a real co phase. Not a phase that they grow out of, but like... I would expect Bonny Bear to be one of those bands that depending on when you grew up would be like one of the first bands you liked, like a band that you liked a lot in middle school and high school and then you get away from them. Maybe I just had a, maybe I just had like a later development as a music snob. Yeah, I mean, we have a different perspective because Bonnie Bear came out in our 20s,

but I think if you were a teenager when that dropped, I could totally see that being your version of like grunge or something. What grunge was to me, or like what pop punk or emo might be to someone else, like the music that you love as a teenager, and then maybe you go through a phase where you don't like it anymore because you associate it with your teenage self and you want to get away from that. And then you get a little bit older and then you want to go back to it. I could see that, I could see Bunny Bear being that for a lot of people. I mean, I interviewed Michelle Zoner from Japanese Breakfast recently, and I was talking to her about Otse era indie.

And, you know, and even 90s indie a little bit, you know, built a spill, also like bright eyes, arcade fire, stuff like that. And she was very upfront. She said, look, you know, I grew up with that stuff. I love it. But I'm also still at the age where I don't have enough distance from it. And it's hard for me to claim it. because that was her teenage music.

So I think, yeah, I think everyone goes through that phase with different artists. I just feel like maybe Bonny Bear hit a generation of people at a pretty young age, and maybe they'll get back to it at some point. I don't know. Pure speculation, who knows. But I love Bunny Bear.

I'm pro-Bunny Bear. You like some Bunny Bear. You're annoyed with other bunny bear. Is that a... Yeah, Indie cast contains multitudes. All right, we've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something

that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, yeah. So we're back in business after a week of missing out on a recommendation corner, but I want to bring up an EP that came out last week

by a band called Military Gun. If you're looking for it, military is spelled with an IE rather than a Y. This is a band that features the front man named Ian Shelton from a regional justice center and self-defense family, two bands that have very, deep catalogs. Regional Justice Center, I think, was the first power violence album to ever make

the Billboard top 200. But they put out an EP called All Roads Lead to the Gun. And it will be followed by All Roads Lead to the Gun too, another one coming out in September. But this is like, the bands I had mentioned, self-defense family, regional justice center. It's kind of this like, kind of talk post-hardcore, kind of shouty, but also kind of power pop as well. I saw it on Twitter referred to as like a combination of unsane and Joyce Manor and in some ways when you hear it it seems like it shouldn't mesh

because it's got the the guy's playing a record balker guitar in the video but there's just a very burly guy shouting over it but I think that this album is extremely promising in joining these two what might seem

mismatched genres it like kind of slaps but also kind of catchy and like poppy Yeah, it's just not a combination I've heard at all before, and I think these guys do it really well. And it's also nine minutes long, four songs. So I would wholeheartedly recommend checking out. It would be worth the investment that Steve put into the Bo Burnham special. You can, you can say, you can tell, you could write in the mailbag, hey, Ian, I gave military gun nine minutes and I wasn't feeling it.

The 10 minute test, which, by the way, If I don't say before I talk about something that I only listen to this for 10 minutes, then you should assume that I have dug down deep and done a thoughtful listen. But if I'm doing the disclaimer that I only gave a 10 minutes, that's your warning to take what I said with a grain of salt. So anyway, not to return to the Bo Burnham discourse. My recommendation this week, and I'm going to continue my obnoxious practice of recommending albums that aren't outlawed.

Because, well, look, I listen to promos. I tend to listen to promos that tends to be, you know, dominate my, at least listening of new music. It tends to be albums that aren't out yet. So let me plant the seed for you to get excited about a record coming out next month. It's called Mirror 2. It's by a band called The Goon Sax. This is a band from Australia. And look, if I say it's a band from Australia, you can either assume that it's a band like ACDC,

you know, a hard rock, kick-ass band, or you can assume that it's a very clever and melodic indie band. band, and the Goonsax does not sound like ACD. In fact, it's interesting because the guitar player in this band is actually the son of one of the members of one of the defining bands of clever and melodic Australian indie rock, the go-between. So they are literally in the lineage of great Australian bands of the past. But I've been really enjoying this record. And look, it's a record that I think could be described as Twitter. I think I've seen that out there.

There's like a little bit of like K Records influence in what they're doing. But again, if you like guitar pop bands from Australia that write songs like with clever, heart-rending lyrics, I think I've said the word clever five times already in this recommendation corner.

I think you will like this record. It's called Mirror 2. This is the third album by this band. So you can check out the new single that came out recently. It's called In the Stone. It's the first song. song from the record. It's a really good song.

And then you can check out their other records. So I would recommend investigating this band, getting into them and getting ready for that record to come out. It comes out July 9th, I believe. Again, it's called 4-2. Real, yeah, early adapter right here. Hey man, we're

building the hype for this band. Again, they're called the Goonsack. So definitely check them out. They're a really good band. That about does it for this episode of Indycast? Thank you all for listening to this episode. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week.

And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.